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Revision as of 00:09, 19 August 2020 editDrevolt (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers6,264 edits Disruptive edits by XXeducationexpertXX; repeatedly reverting my edits on my own talk page: new section← Previous edit Latest revision as of 16:45, 22 January 2025 edit undo2601AC47 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers1,346 edits WP:BLPN closures: ReplyTag: Reply 
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==Open tasks== ==Open tasks==
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== Sander.v.Ginkel unblock request ==
== Pages recently put under ] ==
{{archive top|status=no consensus|result=This has been open for more than a month, much longer than most ban appeals, and it is basically deadlocked, both in numbers and valid arguments. This is therefore closed as not having consensus, which defaults to the block remaining in place. ] ] 21:45, 18 January 2025 (UTC)}}
{{collapse top|bg=#F0F2F5|Report}}
The following is copied from ] on behalf of {{u|Sander.v.Ginkel}}:
{{User:MusikBot/ECPMonitor/Report}}
{{tqb|I have made serious mistakes. I regret it and say sorry for it. I fully understand why I have been blocked. My biggest mistake that I copied-pasted content from articles to other articles, that led to a BLP violation. I have also misused other accounts as suckpuppets: ] and ] (note that the two other accounts –- ] and ] -- at ] was not me. ) In addition, my work was too focused on quantity, rather than quality. I apologize to those who had to do some cleaning up for me.
{{collapse bottom}}

== Appeal to rescind Topic Ban ==
{{atop|result=Consensus is that the ''community imposed'' topic ban should be '''narrowed, but not yet lifted'''. Editors generally believed Davidbena's contributions on ]history were well researched and constructive, but that his contributions regarding post-1948 politics in the region should continue to be restricted. Some editors raised concerns that pre-modern Levantine history and modern Levantine politics are inextricably linked, but the rough consensus is that given Davidbena's editing history, a separation of the two is probably the best option for the encyclopedia even if not a particularly principled distinction. The benefit is that the topic ban can be narrowed, but at the cost of a restriction that is in tension with itself. In general, given the consensus here, the following topic ban should not be enforced strictly, and any administrator imposing sanctions under it should keep in mind the spirit of the discussion that led to the wording, especially the minority advocating a complete lifting of the sanctions.{{pb}}Going off the proposed compromise and various comments on the narrowed scope, the new topic ban should be considered to cover and prohibit: (a) any edits relating to post-1948 Arab-Israeli geopolitics, ], and regardless of whether an ARBPIA template is on the talk page, (b) promoting ] especially those that relate to post-1948 Arab-Israeli politics, and (c) casting ] or questioning the motives of other editors. These restriction should not be construed as prohibiting: (i) the uploading or addition of historical photos or multimedia of or about pre-1948 Levantine subjects, (ii) ] and ] information regarding Levantine archaeological research, (iii) edits relating to geographical features of the Levant (but not geo''political'' features such as borders, landmarks, or territories under dispute). <span style="white-space: nowrap;">— ]]​</span> 22:50, 18 August 2020 (UTC)}}
;Background
*August 2018 – First TBAN imposed at ANI: ]
*February 2019 – Successful appeal of first TBAN: ]
*April 2019 – Second TBAN imposed: ]
*November 2019 – Appeal of second TBAN: ] – closed as unsuccessful
*May 2020 – Second appeal of second TBAN: ] – archived without formal close
*June 2020 – Appeal of second TBAN at AE: ] – declined as out of jurisdiction{{green|, and DB advised to reopen a request at WP:AN.}}

Davidbena's original post follows. &ndash;&#8239;]&nbsp;<small>(])</small> 14:10, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
:Joe, hope it's OK, I added a minor tweak {{green|in green}} to prevent people from getting the wrong idea that this request is forumshopping. --] (]) 15:37, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
-----


Whay do I want to come back? And do I deserve it? I can show that I can make constructive content. I made some edits and created pages under the IP address 82.174.61.58, that was not allowed; and was blocked. It is not good that I made edits under an IP address, but I appreciated that some users (], ], ]) stated they liked the content I created and/or that they offer the opportunity to have me back (see at ]). I made the same mistakes on the Dutch Misplaced Pages (where I misused the same accounts). At this Misplaced Pages I bot back my account and I am editing the Wikipeida I’m also editing at simple.wikipedia.org (see ]). I have created over 900 pages (see ]), (1 page being deleted). I like to create articles from historic work on old sources, for instance ], ], ], ] or the event ] that is barely mentioned at the English ]. Around 100 pages have been (literally) copied to the English Misplaced Pages by several users. I'm also editing Wikidata, see ] and ].
I, the appealing user, {{IP|Davidbena}}, am humbly submitting this petition to rescind a Topic ban imposed against me by ] in the ARBPIA area; imposed (no. 55), during my last appeal in November of 2019, and which I had mistakenly tried to appeal on ] noticeboard earlier this year. My wrongly placed topic ban appeal was declined on 13 June 2020 as shown and where I was asked to submit a new appeal at AN, at a later time. I have duly informed all administrators involved in imposing this ban (], ], ], ]), hoping for a fair and equitous resolution of the same.


However, as I have learned from it, I will never use multiple accounts anymore and adding controversial content without doing a proper fact-check. I will always listen to users, be constructive and be friendly. I will make sure you will not regret giving me my account back. I would like to work under the account ].}}
The reason for this appeal is, first and foremost, because the current Topic ban in the ARBPIA area has been active against me for the duration of a little over one year. I am humbly asking for the opportunity to renew editing in the ARBPIA area, seeing that many of the articles classified under the ARBPIA template are, in fact, historical places (e.g. ], ], ], ], etc.). Often, the involvement of these places in the 1948 or 1967 Arab-Israeli conflicts are only incidental to their broader historical context and scope, for which I am mostly interested in writing about. If I should ever touch on the Arab-Israeli wars from a historical perspective, I will do my utmost best to maintain an atmosphere of camaraderie and mutual respect among fellow contributors. I will also keep foremost in my mind that we, as editors, are to present a fact-based and fact-checked narrative of events, based on reliable sources, and detached from all personal bias and/or taking any side in this area of conflict. I assure my fellow co-editors here that I will not use my role as editor to advocate any advocacy on behalf of any one side in this conflict, but try to be as open-minded as I can to both arguments of the conflict in question (having a healthy respect and goodwill for all peoples who live in and share the same land), stating the facts as neutrally as I possibly can, whenever I am called upon to do so.
] (]) 18:12, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
:'''Support unbanning and unblocking''' per ]. ] (]/]) 18:31, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
* Quoting my SPI comment ]: {{tq2|I was torn on this. The IP does not seem to be creating the sort of low-quality BLP stubs that SportsOlympic was. If this were "just" a case of ''block'' evasion, I'm not sure I could justify a block of the IP as ] of any disruption, and would be inclined to either ignore it or block but offer a non-] unblock to the main account. However, Sander.v.Ginkel is ''banned'', and under the SportsOlympic account has caused significant disruption just six months ago. Evading a ban is an inherent harm, as it undercuts the community's ability to self-govern. Furthermore, it would be unfair to the community to allow someone to contribute content, particularly in a DS area as much of the IP's recent edits have been, without the community being on-notice of their history of significant content issues. (And there is still troubling content like ].) I thus feel I would be defying the mandate the community has given me as an admin if I did anything but block here.&nbsp;... FWIW, Sander, I could see myself supporting an ] unban down the line, although I'd recommend a year away rather than six months.}}That sentiment is what I eventually wrote down at ], which mentions the same principles being relevant in unban discussions. And now that this is before the community, with even more time having passed, I have no problem unbanning: The post-ban edits, while problematic in that they were sockpuppetry, do show evidence that Sander has learned from his mistakes, and thus a ban no longer serves a preventative purpose. Looking back at the one hesitation I mentioned above, I think my concern was that it was an ] violation that seemed credulous of a pro-Russian narrative; but if there's no evidence of that being part of any POV-pushing, then I don't see it as an obstacle to unbanning. <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">&#91;]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 18:33, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per above.] (]) 18:37, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
*:Endorse one account proviso. ] (]) 20:28, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
*I'm a little bit concerned by the sockpuppetry returning earlier this year: ]. However, that is over 6 months ago. I would '''Support''' with the obvious proviso that the user be limited to 1 account and that IP editing may be scrutinized for evidence of ]. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 20:16, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' with provisions per above. Worth keeping a close eye on, but they ''seem'' to have understood the problems with their behavior and improved upon it. ] ] <span style="color:#C8102E;"><small><sup>(])</sup></small></span> 07:07, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' I've previously spoken in favor of the subject as well. ] (]) 09:15, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. "My biggest mistake that I copied-pasted content from articles to other articles, that led to a BLP violation. " That wasn't the biggest mistake by far. You made extremely negative claims about sportspeople based on internet rumors. Apart from this, the first article I checked on simple, , is way too close paraphrasing of the source. has very sloppy writing, "He started his business alone 1980 built so his horse stable "Hexagon" in Schore. " is just nonsense. Copyvio/close paraphrasing seems to be a recurring problem, has e.g. "Zwaanswijk is regarded as one of the most respected post-World War II visual artists of Haarlem and his work had a profound influence on the local art scene." where the source has "Piet Zwaanswijk was een van de meest gerespecteerde na-oorlogse beeldend kunstenaars van Haarlem. Zijn werk had een diepe invloed op de lokale kunstscene". I don't get the impression that the earlier issues have disappeared. ] (]) 11:45, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' User seems to have recognized what he <!-- before someone complains about my use of the gender-neutral he, this user is male per what they've configured settings to be --> did wrong, has edited constructively off enwiki. ''']]''' 18:52, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
*<s>'''Weak Support''', the crux of the issue was three-fold: creation of low-quality sports stubs (including what Fram said), persistent IDHT when asked to fix them, and sockpuppetry. I recall I identified the SportsOlympic sock in a tangential ANI thread a couple of years ago. It appears he has edited constructively elsewhere. I would like to see a commitment to one-account-only and a commitment respond civilly and collaboratively when criticized. ] (]) 15:45, 18 December 2024 (UTC)</s>
:*'''Oppose''', I am convinced by the further discussion below that S.v.G is not a net positive at this time. ] (]) 14:11, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
* '''Support'''. Completely support an unblock; see my comment ] when his IP was blocked in April. ] (]) 17:25, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Sander and his socks created literally thousands of poorly-written and/or potentially-copyvio pages on (very frequently) non-notable sports topics. I don't see evidence in his Simple Wiki contribs that his writing has improved, and for someone with his history of non-notable subject choices I would want to see ''clear'' evidence that these creations are supported by WP:SUSTAINED, non-routine, IRS SIGCOV. Articles like may well be on notable competitions, but with content like {{tq|On 20 March the Women's Fencing Club gave an assaut, in honor of the visit of the Dutch team. As seen as an exceptional, mr. de Vos was a the only man allowed to visit the women's club.}}, and all sources being from 20 or 21 March 1911, we can be confident that verifying and rewriting the mangled translations and searching for continued coverage will be a huge pain for other editors. And going from the en.wp AfD participation I'd also anticipate the same combativeness and time wasted explaining P&Gs to him in that area as well. Given the volume of his creations, I don't think it is fair to foist all the extra work that would come with overturning the ban onto other editors without a much more thorough evaluation of his Simple Wiki contribution quality. ] (]) 02:34, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
* Currently '''oppose'''; open to a change of view if some explanation and assurances are given with regard to the points Fram raises. There is no point in unblocking a problematic editor if it appears that they may well continue to cause issues for the community ~ ''']'''<sup>''']''']</sup> 12:59, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
* '''Support''' but keep an eye on contributions off ENWP. ] (]) 17:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
*:{{yo|Ahri Boy }} Not sure we are concerned with contribs off ENWP. ] (]) 18:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
*::He might appeal on Commons later if the appeal here is successful, so there would be a cooldown before doing there. ] (]) 01:15, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per Fram on close paraphrasing, JoelleJay on sourcing/writing quality, and my own observations on English-language proficiency (I see very recent sentences like "]"). At an absolute minimum I would need a restriction on article creation (to prevent the low-quality mass creation issues from recurring), but these issues would be a problem in other areas too. I think continuing to contribute to simple-wiki and nl-wiki would be the best way forward. ] (]) 01:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:He was once blocked on NLWP for the same sockpuppetry as here before. I don't even know that he may be offered SO there. ] (]) 10:16, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::See . ] (]) 10:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Like Fram, JoelleJay, and Extraordinary Writ, I have concerns about their competence with regards to copyright, notability, and simple prose writing. I think an unblock is likely to create a timesink for the community, who will be forced to tie one eye up watching both of his hands. &spades;]&spades; ] 08:41, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
* Come on – it's been nearly ''seven years'' since the ban – why can't we give another chance? His articles from when he was an IP seemed quite good (and much different from stubs which seem to have been the problem), from what I remember (although they've since been G5'd). ] (]) 16:35, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:S.v.G. needs to be reevaluated. He needs to clarify that the purpose of return is genuine, constructive, and one account only. He hasn't made any contributions to Commons because he was blocked. ] (]) 19:55, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:: I think saying that {{tq|I will never use multiple accounts anymore}} and that he wants to {{tq|make constructive content}} would indicate that {{tq|the purpose of return is genuine, constructive, and one account only.}} ] (]) 19:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::For the meantime, he should stay at Simple and NLWP for another six months to make sure no suspicions will be made before appealing under SO. ] (]) 20:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:But it's only been three years since he was mass-creating non-notable stubs with BLP violations and bludgeoning AfDs with his SportsOlympic sock. He then edited extensively as an IP, got banned for 18 months, restarted within two weeks of that ban ending, and made another 1000+ edits until his latest IP ban in spring 2024. After which he immediately invoked the (laxer) equivalent of the SO on nl.wp... ] (]) 21:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:: And he admits that he was {{tq|too focused on quantity, rather than quality}}, apologized repeatedly, and his creations as an IP showed that he was no longer focused on {{tq|mass-creating non-notable stubs}}. ] (]) 21:18, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' With the above mentioned provisions. Seems like a genuine, good faith, attempt to ]. <span style="font-family: Trebuchet MS;">'''] ]'''</span> 04:44, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - Like a lot of behavioral issues on this site, I think it all stems back to the general public seeing this site as an all-inclusive encyclopedia and some users here seeing the site as a celebrity encyclopedia. If the user becomes a problem, action can be taken again. Let's see how it goes. ] (]) 20:03, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per Fram and PMC. <span style="white-space: nowrap;">—]&nbsp;<sup>(]·])</sup></span> 18:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Question''': Is SvG the same person as {{U|Slowking4}}? There has been an odd connection between the two in the past; I think it was first noted by ]. ☆ <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family: Papyrus">]</span> (]) 22:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
**No. ] (]) 23:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. This appears to be a good-faith attempt at a return, and looking through the commentary here I don't see evidence to suggest continuing the ban and block are preventative. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' basically per ], particularly the evidence that their MASSCREATE/socking/evading behaviour was carrying on as recently as spring 2024. If/When they return, it should be with the requirement that all their articles have to go through AFC and that they won't get ] without a substantive discussion (i.e., no automatic conferring of autopatrolled - they have to request it and disclose why this restriction is in place when doing so). ] (]) 16:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
*It does look like a good-faith desire to return and work on Misplaced Pages. And I would just want to add that Misplaced Pages needs such a fruitful article creator. Especially since ] was severely trimmed several years ago, and probably thousands of sportspeople articles have since been deleted.<br />'''Support'''. (I am not an admin, so I am not sure I can vote. I can see some non-admins voting, but I'm still not sure.) --] (]) 14:26, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
*:{{yo|Moscow Connection}} Your ''comments'' are as valid as anyone else's, if you explain your reasoning, <s>but please note that this is a discussion, not a straight vote, so just saying "support" doesn't tell us much.</s><small>It has been pointed out to that they did do that, I guess the break threw me off. </small> ] ] 21:40, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Conditional support unblock''' (non-admin vote- if I'm not allowed to vote then please just unbold this vote): add editing restriction for them to use ] for article creation, and this restriction can be reviewed in 6-12 months if their article creation has been good. Their article mass creation required one of the largest cleanup jobs I have seen on here, and we certainly wouldn't want the same mass-created quasi-notable articles created again. ]] (]) 17:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Support''' I can't repeat what Beaniefan11 say enough: "Come on – it's been nearly ''seven years'' since the ban – why can't we give another chance? And he admits that he was {{tq|too focused on quantity, rather than quality}}, apologized repeatedly, and his creations as an IP showed that he was no longer focused on {{tq|mass-creating non-notable stubs}}." This should assuage any doubt in the mind of the reviewing administrator. ] (]) 15:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Claims of "It's been seven years!" fall on deaf ears when you find out he's been socking all along and as recently as a year ago. Fram and PMC have good points as well. Show some restraint and understanding of your block and ] is yours. ] (]) 23:11, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Support''' with a little ] and conditions suggested by Joseph2302. Yeah, given the timeframe, I'd say having to submit their creations to AFC for the time being is a sufficient middle way for the yes and no camps. ]@] 00:10, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - Large-scale sockpuppetry is very harmful, and was continuing for years after the ban. ] (]) 20:43, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
{{abottom}}


== Kansascitt1225 ban appeal ==
I will do my utmost best to maintain an atmosphere of camaraderie and mutual respect among contributors, and try to present both sides of the argument (if need be), that is to say, neutrality, rather than pursue an advocacy for any one side, just as requested by WP policy.
{{atop green|result=Appeal successful. There were some murmurings requesting a topic ban from Kansas, but nothing approaching consensus. Of course, ] would be well-advised to be careful not to go back to the behaviors that led to a block in the first place. But in the meantime, welcome back. <b>]]</b>&nbsp;(]&nbsp;•&nbsp;he/they) 19:59, 15 January 2025 (UTC)}}
I am posting the following appeal on behalf of {{user21|Kansascitt1225}}, who is considered banned by the community per ]:


(keeping it short for WP:TLDR) Hi Misplaced Pages community, it has been over 1 year since I edited on Misplaced Pages without evading my block or breaking community rules. I would like to be given another chance to edit. I realized that my blocking was due to my behavior of creating multiple accounts and using them on the same page and creating issues during a disagreement. I was younger then and am now able to communicate more effectively with others. I intend to respect community rules and not be disruptive to the community. I was upset years ago when I mentioned Kansas City’s urban decay and it was reverted as false and I improperly reacted in a disruptive way that violated the community rules. The mistake I made which caused the disruptive behavior was that I genuinely thought people were reverting my edits due to the racist past of this county and keeping out blacks and having a dislike for the county. I also thought suburbs always had more single family housing and less jobs than cities. In this part of the United States a suburb means something different than what it means in other parts of the world and is more of a political term for other municipalities which caught me off guard and wasn’t what I grew up thinking a suburb was.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://slate.com/business/2015/05/urban-density-nearly-half-of-america-s-biggest-cities-look-like-giant-suburbs.html}}</ref> Some of these suburbs have lower single family housing rates and higher population density and this specific county has more jobs than the “major city” (referenced in previous unblock request if interested). This doesn’t excuse my behavior but shows why I was confused and I should have properly addressed it in the talk pages instead of edit warring or creating accounts. After my initial blocking, I made edits trying to improve the project thinking that would help my case when it actually does the opposite because I was bypassing my block which got me community banned to due the automatic 3 strikes rule. I have not since bypassed my block. I’m interested in car related things as well as cities and populations of the United States and want to improve these articles using good strong references. Thanks for reading. ] (]) 04:46, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
Recently, I was asked to fix problems in the reference formatting of an article nominated for DYK that is classified as ARBPIA, as shown , but because of its ARBPIA classification, I could not do anything to that article.
:'''DISCLAIMER:''' a) In those articles where there is an ARBPIA template, I have altogether refrained from editing; b) in those articles where there is <ins>not</ins> an ARBPIA template, my edits in them have not been about anything relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict. Only once on a Talk-Page did I vaguely mention it in passing, but when reminded that this topic is "off-limits" to me even in unmarked pages, I quickly desisted.] (]) 01:07, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''<s>Oppose</s>'''. Reading the discussion that imposed your ], I see it is your ''second'' indefinite ] topic ban (which you neglected to mention in this appeal), and that after the first one was lifted you returned to the same problematic editing. That's all I need to know. Fool us once, shame on us. Fool us a second time, stay topic banned permanently. ] (]) 07:44, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:I'll just add that, briefly looking through some of the previous disputes, I come across from Davidbena in April 2019: "''Actually, ] disproves the theory of modern revisionists of history (who dare dispute the historicity of King Solomon)...''". Anyone with that approach to history and to ] shouldn't be allowed within a mile of this subject matter (broadly construed). ] (]) 07:49, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:For the record, first indefinite topic ban ]. ] (]) 08:23, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*::{{ping|Boing! said Zebedee}}, I didn't forget the first topic ban on purpose, but thought that it was more important to write about the second, the active topic ban only.] (]) 16:08, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:::Considering your second ban was imposed just two months after the first one was lifted, and you were advised at AE to include the full timescale of your bans at any AN appeal, I'd say that was exceptionally poor judgment. ] (]) 16:20, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:Reading through all this again today, I'm struck by ]'s comments below, which I find gracious and constructive. Nableezy is far closer to this subject area and its disputes, and my own judgment is far less well informed, so I'm withdrawing my opposition to the appeal. ] (]) 08:11, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Erk''' Does ] fall within said topic ban? (tiptoes away quietly and finally goes back to bed.) --<b>] ]</b> 08:11, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:{{u|Deepfriedokra}}, also: {{la|Wadi al-Far'a (river)}}, a river in the West Bank; {{la|Madaba Map}}, a map of the Holy Land showing the "border between Israel and Palestine" and used by both sides in claims of destiny. ''']''' <small>(])</small> 08:38, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*::The articles you mention are not under the general ARBPIA ban, since the ban only applies to articles where the ARBPIA template has been appended on the Talk-Page.] (]) 13:03, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:::{{ping|Davidbena}} Err, is it? Your was from "all WP:ARBPIA topics, broadly construed". Was there some later discussion clarified it only applied to articles with a template? &ndash;&#8239;]&nbsp;<small>(])</small> 13:40, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*::::{{u|Joe Roe}}, What do those articles have to do with the IP conflict? Is the Hebrew alphabet now part of the conflict? Is a mosaic from the 6th Century now part of the conflict? No, it's not. ] <sup>]</sup> 14:46, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:::::{{ping|Sir Joseph}} ]: just look at its talk page. There are disputes on whether the script or exists independently or is an Israeli nationalist re-branding of the ] going back over a decade. Davidbena participated extensively in a contentious merge discussion about it a couple of weeks ago. The ], as Guy has already mentioned, is an important piece of historical geography used in contemporary territorial claims: {{tq|Although the original Madaba Map was part of a Christian edifice situated outside Palestine, it was highly regarded by Zionist archaeologists not only for its universal significance but as a remnant of the Jewish national past in Palestine. The Zionist rhetoric used it to verify the important role of the city of Jerusalem in the Jewish narrative of place. The idea of creating modern maps of Jerusalem, in the spirit of the Madaba Map is best exemplified by Naomi Henrik's mosaic decoration (Figure 7), originally installed in 1957 outside the entrance to the Jerusalem Municipality building and later transferred and reinstalled at the Mount Herzl complex in Jerusalem.}} ''Anyone'' working on the history of the Southern Levant would agree that there is practically nothing about it that isn't politicised. &ndash;&#8239;]&nbsp;<small>(])</small> 15:11, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*::::::], look again at the ]. In the section where I was involved in the discussion about this antiquated script, there was no mention whatsoever about "Israeli nationalist re-branding of the ] going back over a decade." And, besides, I was unaware of its mention. So, does this mean that if the article ] has a discussion on its Talk-Page about Palestinian nationalists or Israeli nationalists in one of its sections that I am not free to talk about the city of New york in a different section? I do not think that this falls under the definition of "broadly construed."] (]) 15:31, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*::::::{{u|Joe Roe}}, None of those examples have anything to do with the conflict. You're basically stretching it. ] <sup>]</sup> 15:28, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:::::::{{tq|You're basically stretching it}}, i.e., broadly construing it. FWIW, I think Davidbena has attempted to abide by the expectations of the TBAN as he understands them, but it would've been wiser, as BMK points out below, to avoid the area altogether and focus his edits in a completely different area. ] (]) 16:13, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*::::::::{{u|Grandpallama}}, I'm not commenting on the appeal, but the page is not even "broadly construed" to be part of the conflict, merely because some people mention "nationalism" on the talk page. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:18, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:{{u|Deepfriedokra}}, I think what you are doing is muddying the water. To say that Paleo-Hebrew falls under ARBPIA conflict is ludicrous and knowing that most people will not check the page for content. Really shameful that you'd mention it. ] <sup>]</sup> 14:50, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
* '''Oppose'''. A second indefinite ban indicates a serious problem, and the appeal doesn't address that other than to repeat the platitudes that turned out to be false promises last time. ''']''' <small>(])</small> 08:27, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:Guy, I understand your worries, but I wish to remind you that both topic bans against me were the result of my having filed complaints against two other editors, for which I am terribly sorry and I am resolved never again to cast aspersions against them. I am simply asking for an opportunity to prove myself, and, if all else fails, this body can ban me without any right to an appeal.] (]) 12:59, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
* '''Oppose'''. First, to clarify for others, although Davidbena's topic ban cites ''ARB''PIA and he implies it was placed by Ymblanter, it's a community ban, nothing to do with arbitration, discretionary sanctions or arbitration enforcement as far as I can tell. As to the appeal, the idea that historic (pre-1948) topics are only "incidentally" related to the Israel–Palestine conflict is deeply flawed. Everything about the ownership, naming and interpretation of historic sites in Israel–Palestine, from the 20th century right back into prehistory, is highly politicised and contested. Both sides in the contemporary conflict lean heavily on contested historical claims. It's hard to believe that anyone familiar with this area could be genuinely ignorant of this. It's especially hard to be believe Davidbena is, because the previous discussions of his topic ban have mainly concerned his edits to historic topics, and he has recently been involved in PIA-related content disputes in articles like ] and ]. In fact, I think some sort of ] is in order given that this and other edits above seem to be clear breaches of his topic ban. At the very least, we should clarify/reiterate that he his banned from the Palestine-Israel topic ''broadly construed'', not just articles that happen to have this-or-that template. &ndash;&#8239;]&nbsp;<small>(])</small> 13:37, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:Right, the re-imposed topic ban from May 2019 said ], not "all WP:ARBPIA topics with the template on the talk page."-- ] (]) 13:47, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*::Well, that was a misunderstanding on my part. Even so, where the ARBPIA template does not appear, I have still refrained from discussing ARBPIA topics. Only once did I err in this regard, and quickly ceased from doing it again. All other edits were of a general non-political nature, such as archaeological/historical/geographical issues, without raising the issue of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. In fact, if my edits were wrong, I would have expected someone to tell me that I cannot edit pages such as the ], although the work has absolutely nothing to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and even though it speaks about towns and villages in the Holy Land.] (]) 14:23, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*::], I wish to remind you and others here that in the article ] it was agreed upon by the contributing editors NOT to add the ARBPIA template, which enabled me to edit that page, where the issues were purely geographical. Only once did I err there, and was quickly reprimanded, and I stopped. When the editors decided that the article belonged to the ARBPIA category it was then that I stopped editing that article altogether.] (]) 14:59, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:::I can see how the template issue could be an honest misunderstanding (but to reiterate, your TBAN is from the ''topic'' and ''broadly construed'', it has nothing to do with the ARBPIA discretionary sanctions). But are you seriously claiming that the archaeology, history and geography of Israel–Palestine is "non-political"? ], for example, is about the ''replacement of Arabic placenames with Hebrew ones'', particularly after the 1948 and 1967 wars. An editor like you, who is knowledgeable about this subject, should not need a template to tell you that is directly related to the Israel–Palestine conflict. &ndash;&#8239;]&nbsp;<small>(])</small> 15:36, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*::::Yes, they are "non-political" when most of the discussions there were strictly about the British governance over the country, before the rise of the State of Israel, and where the article speaks about the naming of sites after the rise of the State, my edits referred only to the ancient history of these sites, preserved in Arabic writing, and which have nothing to do with the conflict between Jews and Arabs. In fact, I stressed the importance of preserving the Old Arabic names since they are a reflection of the Old Hebrew names. What's more, my edits had absolutely nothing to do with the political conflict, but only geography and placenames (except for once when I briefly mentioned the conflict, but quickly deleted it). Again, I would NEVER have edited this page had the ARBPIA template not been removed.] (]) 15:50, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:{{u|Joe Roe}}, please clarify how Paleo-Hebrew is covered under ARBPIA. ] <sup>]</sup> 14:53, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*::I've answered you above. &ndash;&#8239;]&nbsp;<small>(])</small> 15:12, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:::{{u|Sir Joseph}}, indeed, {{u|Joe Roe}} has answered that query above, but also more substantively in their ''oppose'' comment — in an especially eloquent and poignant way, I would add. ] 16:07, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*::::{{u|El C}}, as I said above, I'm not commenting on the appeal, but it's ludicrous to say that Paleo-Hebrew is part of the IP conflict, even broadly construed. I once mentioned that I can get any page on Misplaced Pages to be "broadly construed" and we really shouldn't be doing that. Just because one person mentions "nationalism" on the talk page (which may or may not have anything to do with the conflict) we should not be bringing more pages into the conflict area.] <sup>]</sup> 16:21, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:::::{{u|Sir Joseph}}, the fact is that the Committee has chosen to widen the scope of ARBPIA, as can be seen in ARBPIA4's '']'' onto "primary articles" and "related content." ] 16:44, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*::::::{{u|El C}}, none of those applies to Paleo-Hebrew. I agree with Boing below. IF we are going to sanction someone or not accept an appeal for a TBAN, it should be for a valid TBAN violation, not for some 1 mile stretch of a TBAN topic violation. Can I edit the USA article if I'm TBANNED from the IP conflict since the USA is related to Israel and Israel is associated with the conflict? ] <sup>]</sup> 16:49, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:::::::{{u|Sir Joseph}}, I don't disagree that for "related content," the nature of the edits in question must be weighed in relation to ARBPIA, directly. ] 16:52, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
* '''Comment''' I have opposed previous appeals. For this one, I just want to point out that I'm disappointed that Davidbena was selective in following he was given for this appeal. While he did notify relevant admins, he did not disclose the full sequence of bans and appeals, as suggested. This whitewashes the history here, for anyone who sees this appeal and is unaware. ] (]) 13:56, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:Good point. I've added the background to the top of this thread. &ndash;&#8239;]&nbsp;<small>(])</small> 14:10, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:Oh dear, that shows the second ban was ''only two months'' after the first ban was lifted. ] (]) 14:13, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:Yes, the Topic ban came only "two months" after my first Topic ban, but I think it can be fairly appreciated by my fellow co-editors here that a previously banned editor (such as myself) has no way of knowing that if he files a complaint against another editor (say, an editor whom he thought may have acted injudiciously) that the complaint would backfire and he would find himself banned once more. I'm sorry, but this is what happened to me, and I admit that I was haste in my judgment, and that I have since made amends with that same editor; in short, I will not do this again.] (]) 14:32, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*::I'd say that both filing that complaint in the first place, and then not expecting any possible backfire, is another example of very poor judgment. I don't doubt that you are well meaning, but I just think you don't have the ability to see other viewpoints or to understand why your approach has been so problematic. ] (]) 16:28, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Clear lack of understanding as to WHY the ban was placed in the first place. And no, filing a complaint is NOT a reason for a topic ban. ] (]) 14:38, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:Again, I'm sorry, but if I made amends with the editor against whom I filed a complaint is this not a sign of remorse and understanding where I had been wrong? If this isn't, what is?] (]) 14:46, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per the selective sanction history portrayed by Davidbena and the topic ban violations found by Deepfriedokra and JzG --] &#124; ] 14:44, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:{{u|Guerillero}}, can you clarify the violations? Are you saying that paleo-Hebrew is under ARBPIA violation? ] <sup>]</sup> 14:48, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - It's quite clear from past actions and the comments here that Davidbena really has no intrinsic sense of how he should be editing while under a broadly -construed topic ban. It has always been my opinion that people under such a ban should edit far, far, away from the subject area in question, but that has not been the case here, nor do I see it ever being the case. In fact, what I foresee is an eventual site ban for frittering around the edges of the ban and sticking his toes into the water once too often, ] (]) 15:32, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:], ''shalom''. If I were to follow your guidelines (which I think are misguided), I would not be able to edit ''any'' article (even of geographical/historical/archaeological natures) that has to do with any place in Israel, from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, but this is NOT what is meant by being "broadly construed." And besides, I have not discussed Israeli-Palestinian issues since my Topic ban, except for once, and I was quickly reprimanded and I stopped.] (]) 15:41, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*::I'm afraid that is exactly what is meant by ''broadly construed''. See ] and ]. It would be one thing if the Israel–Palestine conflict had nothing to do with history or historical geography, but it does. &ndash;&#8239;]&nbsp;<small>(])</small> 15:45, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:::My understanding of "broadly construed" means simply not to bring-up in conversation any mention of the Arab-Israeli conflict, whether in articles that have the ARBPIA template or in articles that do not have the ARBPIA template. However, to speak about Israeli food in a Tel-Aviv article is permitted. As for Arab-Israeli political issues, I have refrained from them altogether.] (]) 15:55, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*::::While I am skeptical of Davidbena's ability to edit neutrally in this area if his TBAN were lifted, and I think he misrepresents his history of edit conflicts in this area, I do suspect his editing around the edges of this area is more a product of his beliefs about what the TBAN entails rather than a deliberate attempt to push the envelope. That said, if a consensus exists that some of these topics lie within the boundaries of "broadly construed", it's probably to his benefit that this expectation is clarified. ] (]) 16:13, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:::{{u|Joe Roe}}, that is incorrect. If someone is TBANNED from the IP conflict, they aren't TBANNED from Israel or Palestine articles. Editing an article that has nothing to do with the conflict is not prohibited and we should not be locking down articles where there is no conflict just for the sake of locking it down. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:23, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. The scope of the current topic ban has come up above, and I'll comment here to avoid fragmenting any other conversations. It's not a DS ban, but as "ARBPIA" was specifically mentioned, I don't think it's unreasonable of Davidbena to have interpreted it as covering only the I/P conflict itself (even with "broadly construed" - that's such an nebulous concept that what might seem like obvious coverage to some will seem different to others). Yes, it could have been interpreted more broadly, but I don't see Davidbena's interpretation as obviously implausible, and I do see it as being in good faith. If the community wants to tighten the definition of the topic ban scope then that of course can be covered here. But I think any sanction for allegedly breaking the ban through a good faith interpretation of its scope would be wrong, and I would strongly oppose any such move. ] (]) 16:43, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:Agreed, and very well put. ] (]) 17:19, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*I never understand exactly how broadly is "broadly construed". If I am topic banned from AP2, can I edit ]? ]? ]? ]? ]? ]? ]? If I am topic banned from PIA, can I edit ] or ]? ] or ]? ] or ]? ]? If I am topic banned from The Troubles can I edit ] or ]? ] or ]? What if I just edit the portions of those articles that don't relate to the conflict? I'm glad I'm not topic banned from anything because I'd have no idea. Without clear lines, sanctioning editors for editing at the edges of a topic ban strikes me as an unfair "gotcha". <span style="white-space:nowrap;">]&thinsp;<sup>] – ]'']</sup></span> 16:46, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
**Is Misplaced Pages's search function broken for you? I mean the ] is pretty comprehensive. To help you, I've reproduced it below:
***''The purpose of a topic ban is to forbid editors from making edits related to a certain topic area where ], but to allow them to edit the rest of Misplaced Pages. Unless clearly and unambiguously specified otherwise, a topic ban covers all ''pages'' (not only articles) broadly related to the topic, as well as the ''parts of other pages'' that are related to the topic, as encapsulated in the phrase "]". For example, if an editor is banned from the topic "weather", this editor is forbidden from editing not only the article ], but also everything else that has to do with weather, such as:''
****''weather-related articles and ], such as ] and ], and their talk pages;''
****''weather-related ] such as all of the categories that are associated with ];''
****''weather-related project pages, such as ];''
****''weather-related parts of other pages, even if the pages as a whole have little or nothing to do with weather: the section entitled "Climate" in the article ], for example, is covered by the topic ban, but the rest of the article is not;''
****''discussions or suggestions about weather-related topics anywhere on Misplaced Pages, for instance a ] concerning an article about a ], but also including ] and the user's own user and talk pages (including sandboxes).''
**Does that answer your questions -- or were your questions just a rhetorical device not actually dependent on answers? --] &#124; ] 07:17, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
***That doesn't answer any of my questions. Most of what you've copied and pasted isn't even relevant to my questions (nobody is asking about categories or project pages, etc.). But feel free to provide answers to my questions if you'd like. I think you'll find answering those questions isn't as easy as copy and pasting from the help file. Same with the issue about ] raised in this thread. You'll notice several editors disagree on that one, a sure sign of a tricky issue. (Also I'd suggest removing or collapsing all that irrelevant text you copied and pasted, for the sake of our colleagues.) <span style="white-space:nowrap;">]&thinsp;<sup>] – ]'']</sup></span> 16:54, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
***:So, basically, the skills of applying general principles to specific examples and understanding general principles through the use of examples, these are difficult for you? There's not much point in trying to help someone who is determined not to understand something, so pardon me if I don't waste both my time and yours in your sealioning. --] &#124; ] 00:37, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
***::''Ad hominem'' attacks are admissions of defeat. <sup>]</sup>]<sup>]</sup> 02:59, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
*I don't and have never doubted David's good faith here, and I take him at his word on his understanding of the topic ban and what it applied to and I think the arguments above on whether or not such and such page is covered by it should be reframed so it is less about his mistakes in understanding about the ban previously and more about helping him adhere to it in the future. I also dont think it is reasonable to say somebody who is subject to a topic ban about the ARBPIA topic should refrain from editing subjects even remotely related. David is one of our better resources for the Jewish history in Israel/Palestine, he researches thoroughly and when not discussing modern politics is in my honest opinion an affable and pleasant person who is enjoyable to work with. I think perhaps there needs to be a bit more clarity of the extent of the ban, but I do not see what he has been doing as "frittering around the edges". I dont really think ], as the example contested above, is covered by his ban (though Sir Joseph I also do not think you are helping David even a little bit here). Broadly construed still has limits and I think that example goes quite a bit past those limits. My view on his ban remains unchanged. If David commits to a. not promoting fringe viewpoints regarding the modern politics of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and b. commits to not questioning the motives of those who have opposing viewpoints to him, then I still have no problem with him editing in the topic area. If his ban is not rescinded I would strongly suggest that it be narrowed. David is an asset for a lot of these articles, he brings sources and research that nobody else does. We should let him. Anything that is not directly related to the modern state of Israel and its conflict with the Palestinians should be excluded from his ban. Ancient villages, ancient alphabets, ancient anything should be excluded from his ban. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 16:47, 31 July 2020 (UTC)</small>
*'''Support remove TBAN'''. This whole ill-conceived mess is a setup for failure. It is too subjective, too vague, too arbitrary, and too confusing. Davidbena has been editing constructively and with forebearance about subjects that may or not have been covered by his topic ban. No one can say for sure whether they are or not.. --<b>] ]</b> 18:12, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support a narrower ban''' per {{u|Nableezy}}: something like (a) retaining topic ban on modern-day Palestinian-Israeli conflict, (b) a strict sanction on questioning the motives of other editors or promoting fringe theories in any area, and (c) otherwise permitting editing of Middle Eastern regional topics including ancient Jewish history, geography, etc unrelated to the modern state. (Nableezy, let me know if I've misinterpreted your view). Not normally a supporter of a "last chance" after a previous "last chance" but some of the comments here encouraged a look at Davidbena's wider editing history, and they seem a competent and well-researched editor outside the immediate topic area of modern Israel-Palestine. On that basis the encyclopedia seems better off for their ancient history/geography/cultural contributions, and we should aim to let them carry on in those spaces. -- ] (]) 01:18, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' lifting or narrowing the topic ban, per Nableezy, DFO and Euryalus, and per lack of evidence of continued disruption. To me, whether David properly formatted this appeal by linking to the prior ones, and David's understanding of what "broadly construed" means, are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is whether David has been editing without being disruptive and the answer seems to be yes. <span style="white-space:nowrap;">]&thinsp;<sup>] – ]'']</sup></span> 16:04, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' lifting the topic ban. The editor has shown remorse, and sincerely plans to edit in accordance with the expectations of the community, including the higher expectations in the sensitive area of the WP:ARBPIA area. I find the fact that Nableezy, who could be considered to be on the opposite site of that conflict from the editor who filed this request, has agreed to lifting the topic ban, and has in fact described this editor in a very positive light, a telling sign that Misplaced Pages only stands to gain from lifting this editor's topic ban. I would like to add that the rather unforgiving approach of some here, is tantamount to a declaration that no topic ban can ever be rescinded, and editors can't ever improve their old ways. I refuse to acquiesce to such a position, and think that any closure of this request should contain a general statement rejecting that position. Likewise I think there is little to be gained from the formalist approach of some here, with undue stress on whether the filing included all relevant details. In this regards I'd like to stress that the filing editor explained that he thought it would be enough to mention the current, active topic ban only, and I find that a convincing explanation. In short, Davidbena is one of our better editors, who after over a year of his topic ban has understood well how he is to behave in the WP:ARBPIA area, and I think it would be more than reasonable to give him the chance to contribute positively to this project in that area as well by rescinding his topic ban at this time. ] (]) 06:58, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support narrowing''' of the Tban per {{u|Nableezy}} and {{u|Euryalus}}, along the lines proposed above. I'm moved by the fact that in this appeal and earlier ones, users who had interacted with him most said that he was capable of working well with others and brought unique skills to the project, but was let down by occasional lapses in judgement and conduct. Let's give him a chance to use those skills to the benefit of the project in a wider range of areas, and perhaps after six months of issue-free editing he could request that the ban be lifted altogether? ]] 14:55, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Narrow topic ban''' for now. Per Euryalus. ''']] (])''' 14:11, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Narrow, but do not lift''' based upon what I've seen here. I remain unconvinced that the statements here, which are not radically different from ones made in the past, represent a genuine shift in approach to editing. On the other hand, ] makes a compelling case for why we should not let sanctions to prevent disruption in one area result in blocking valuable contributions by an editor in another area. ] (]) 15:04, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''', constructive and hard working editor who has realized the error in his past transgressions.--] (]) 11:47, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' lifting of the topic ban. This user has put in his time and clearly improved, so it's time to give him another chance. He has never needed to be sanctioned since the topic ban was imposed. ] (]) 05:33, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
===Proposal for narrower ban===
'''SUGGESTED COMPROMISE:''' If it will make the decision process any easier for administrators and/or contributing editors here, I will agree to remain under my ARBPIA topic ban for another year or two (when I will then be free to submit another appeal), but meanwhile, if agreed upon here by the editors, I will be specifically prohibited from adding content related to the Arab-Israeli conflict on '''all''' Misplaced Pages pages - with or without the ARBPIA tag, but I will be ALLOWED to contribute only on geographical issues, or on pre-1948 historical issues, and on archaeological issues in all ARBPIA articles, including the uploading of images to these Misplaced Pages sites, as may seem fitting to me. Many of my contributions, prior to my ban, have already been to upload images to these pages. In this way, I will continue to behave with restrictions in what concerns the Israeli-Palestinian area of conflict, but contribute in ways that are mutually beneficial to all.] (]) 18:13, 8 August 2020 (UTC)


{{reflist-talk}} ] (]/]) 21:22, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Can somebody close this? Last time David appealed it just sat here until being archived. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 01:27, 12 August 2020 (UTC)</small>
* '''(mildly involved) Support'''. I gave feedback on an earlier version of their ban appeal. This is five years since the initial block. Five years and many, many socks, and many, many arguments. But with no recent ban evasion and a commitment to communicate better, I think it's time to give a second chance. -- ] (]) 21:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
:{{re|Nableezy}} I'll keep my eye on this and make sure it gets closed properly - feel free to ping me any time it looks like nothing's happening (well, you know what I mean). ] (]) 10:41, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
* '''Support lifting ban'''. David is a knowledgeable editor and has reflected on his actions and is unlikely to repeat them. ] (]) 05:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' per asilvering and ]. ] (]/]) 21:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. Five years is a long time. Willing to trust for a second chance.] (]) 21:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
* Per Nableezy above, it'd be a shame if this just got archived without outcome because everyone got tired of commenting. Adding a subject header above, and FWIW '''support''' Davidbena's suggested compromise as something worth trying. -- ] (]) 08:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
* Ideally I'd want to see some indication that they don't intend to ] as the issue seems to be rather ideological in nature and I don't see that addressed in the appeal. I also don't love the failure to understand a lot of issues around their block/conduct and their inability to effectively communicate ] and on their ]. ] (]) 00:00, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
::Reposting really just to prevent this archiving from lack of engagement. Can an uninvolved administrator please give this a review and determine if consensus exists for any or no action? -- ] (]) 02:54, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
*Yes, I can '''support''' this. It seems like a good compromise to see how things go. And I think it essentially sums up the emerging consensus above. ] (]) 10:38, 13 August 2020 (UTC) *:Would a topic ban from Kansas-related topics help? This was floated as a bare minimum two or so years ago. -- ] (]) 00:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
*:I'm not that concerned by the RGW issue. Their communication on this appeal has been clear, they responded to my feedback regarding their unblock request, and they've indicated they'll not edit war and seek consensus for their edits. ] (]/]) 00:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Support lifting ban''' --<b>] ]</b> 11:19, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
*Is my maths just bad or is January 2019 not six years ago rather than five? In any event it's been a long time since they tried to evade. I'm leaning toward giving a second chance but I'd really like them to understand that walls of text are not a good way to communicate, that they need to post in paragraphs, and that Misplaced Pages is not a place for righting great wrongs. ] (]) 16:27, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
*:'''Or support compromise'''. whichever gains most support. --<b>] ]</b> 11:22, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
* <s>'''Support lifting ban'''. I think enough time has passed, Davidbena is conciliatory and should be given a chance.--] (]) 07:50, 14 August 2020 (UTC)</s> *:{{tq|Is my maths just bad or is January 2019 not six years ago rather than five?}} ssssshhh. -- ] (]) 18:02, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
*:] from KC:{{tq2|Yes I can write in paragraphs and list different ideas in separate paragraphs instead of a giant run on sentence.{{pb}}I wasn’t trying to right great wrongs but noticed the contrast of the definition of ] on Misplaced Pages and these communities being described as suburban (meanwhile some of these suburbs verifiably having lower residential to job ratio than the city and also a higher overall population density with some suburbs gaining population during the day due to commuters coming into them). This is essentially why on my case page It says I feel as tho something had to be “fixed”. I thought my edits were being removed simply because people didn’t like this place or some of its past so I felt as tho I was simply being purposefully misled which caused me to not follow proper civility.{{pb}}I just wanted to clarify that these places weren’t only residential and were major employment areas that they sometimes have a lower percentage of single family homes. This to me was always the opposite of what suburban meant, atleast what I learned during grade school and what it says on Misplaced Pages. That’s where the confusion came from. Kansascitt1225 (talk) 06:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC)}} ] (]/]) 02:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
:*Above editor is blocked as a sock. ] (]) 01:48, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Six years is a long time, and they have shown growth. I do not think what is actually happening here is ], instead they ] and things went downhill from there. I think ] of {{tq|Jackson county being THE central county of the metropolitan area}} (which Misplaced Pages deems urban) {{tq|when you can see in the census reference here there are actually 6 central counties}} (which Misplaced Pages deems suburban) is reasonable. I researched it, but found the concerns are inconsistent with ] page which provides the definition that {{tq|An urban area is a human settlement with a high population density and an infrastructure of built environment. This is the core of a metropolitan statistical area in the United States, if it contains a population of more than 50,000.}} An urban area is the most urban area compared to its surroundings, even though its surroundings are quite dense. I hope this helps. ] (]) 22:54, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
* '''Support compromise, narrowing, or lifting ban''' per above. ]]] 22:52, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*:I add that their concerns that suburban designation misleads people seem to have merit. It is not the suburban designation that misleads people though, but the definition of suburban itself on the ] article seems to be misleading. I know this is not a place to discuss content, but discuss conduct. But some insight into content can help resolve problems. ] (]) 11:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
{{abot}} {{abot}}


== Template editor privilege abuse == == Tulsi (unblock request) ==
{{atop green|User unblocked. ] 12:25, 16 January 2025 (UTC)}}
{{atop|Alright, I'd say we're at the point where this thread has achieved everything it can possibly achieve. For starters, {{u|Mdaniels5757}} is attempting to mediate this situation, which is far more than us admins can possibly achieve with our tools. Our sincere thanks to Mdaniels for getting at resolving the underlying dispute. As for our part, I think it's been pretty firmly established that both editors were in the wrong. Alex was in the wrong for making a significantly noticeable visual change to a template to begin with. Justin was in the wrong for reverting without prior discussion. Alex was in the wrong for re-reverting, or more accurately, edit warring. Justin was in the wrong for his aggressive tone here. In my opinion, TE is an uncontentious technical appointment that should ''never'' entail any drama whatsoever. IMO both editors could be justifiably stripped of their TE permissions at this point and the project would not suffer for it. In the interest of deescalation, I will let both parties off with a warning. Alex is warned that noticeable visual changes to templates require discussion beforehand, and if one's TE action is reverted, it is unacceptable to initiate an edit war. Justin is warned that reverting a TE action without discussion is not something to be done lightly, and even if you feel you're in the "right", that's no excuse for edit warring. This is no different than the standard edit warring guidance, just more important that TEs follow it, and more enforceable if they do not. Both parties are warned that if they engage in further misconduct that results in disruption or drama, they may have their TE permissions revoked without further warning. Alex has been additionally warned by Johnuniq that if he uses his TE permission "aggressively" again, he may have said permission revoked. ] <sup>]</sup> 06:38, 15 August 2020 (UTC)}}
* {{userlinks|Tulsi}}
{{vandal|Alex 21}} has abused his template editor privileges at ]. See the discussion at ] where he has reverted after a fellow template editor brought up objections based on ] and he has not found consensus for his edits (nor did he prior to the initial change, which is also required by ]). ―]<span style="color:red">❤]☮]☺]☯</span> 05:23, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
* Blocked (indef) on 3 April 2024 (9 months ago) by ] during an AN thread (]) for undisclosed paid editing
:{{Ping|MSGJ}} who has blocked/unblocked him regarding edit-warring. ―]<span style="color:red">❤]☮]☺]☯</span> 05:25, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
* Subsequent unblock request was also considered at AN before being declined (])
::I have support for my edits. One editor disagreeing is not a lack of consensus. I see that ] was brought up elsewhere, so I'll point out that {{tq|it is the responsibility of the reverting template editor to demonstrate their revert is not out of sheer reflex.}} No reason was provided for the initial revert other than ], meaning that Koavf did indeed revert based on "sheer reflex"; ] was quoted in the discussion but quickly nullified with the reasons listed at ].
::{{u|Koavf}}, shall I be pinging the administrators who have blocked/unblocked you twice in the past seven weeks? Or if we're dating old blocks, as you have, I'm counting 34 entries in your log. Will you be pinging them yourself? -- <span style="text-shadow:0 0 1px #8dd">''/]/]''</span> 05:36, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
:::{{u|Alex 21}}, I don't think your bad faith ]-y questions will do you any favors on this noticeboard but to ], yes, please do ping whomever you think is relevant to assess your judgement or lack thereof in this discussion. I've made the report here and this shouldn't be a back-and-forth for the two of us, so I won't be posting here unless someone else requests it. ―]<span style="color:red">❤]☮]☺]☯</span> 05:39, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
::::{{u|Koavf}}, are we not here to discuss my "behaviour"? Do you not have any comments regarding the "Dispute with a fellow template editor" quote I provided you ]? Nor the comments about consensus? Remember, ]. As far as I can tell, you are the only editor who has disagreed, and you ''still'' have not provided a reason for your revert, other than that "out of sheer reflex". -- <span style="text-shadow:0 0 1px #8dd">''/]/]''</span> 05:45, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::{{u|Alex 21}}, Alex, this is not a place for the two of us to bicker. I have made my case that you contravened ] and that you have not done your due diligence in seeking consensus ''before'' or after your edits and that you have either not understood or willfully misconstrued a policy. I am now explicitly requesting that you stop pinging me and stop attempting to have an interpersonal conversation on this message board: that is not the function of this board. If admins need my input, they will request it here. I left this for ''them'' to assess if you are acting in accord with the requirements of a template editor. ―]<span style="color:red">❤]☮]☺]☯</span> 05:48, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
::::::{{u|Koavf}}, are you stating that I am not allowed to reply and defend myself against such a false report? I will reply with my side as I wish, it is not your right to say I cannot. Given that you are the reporting editor, my comments will naturally be initially directed towards you, especially when you include ]-y remarks about unrelated four-year-old content.
::::::Nevertheless, your reply is still required at the template's talkpage. -- <span style="text-shadow:0 0 1px #8dd">''/]/]''</span> 05:55, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::::{{u|Alex 21}}, I have tacitly asked you to stop pinging me in this discussion and explicitly asked you to stop pinging me. I have told you that I am only going to give my feedback if requested by an admin. ―]<span style="color:red">❤]☮]☺]☯</span> 05:56, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
::::::::{{noping|Koavf}} (not pinged), then only give your feedback when requested, I'm not stopping you. You filed the report, I will be replying to you until asked a question by another editor. -- <span style="text-shadow:0 0 1px #8dd">''/]/]''</span> 06:00, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
:::Returning to my own initial comment, I'll be pinging {{u|El_C}} and {{u|Ivanvector}} in regards to the above editor and their report. I believe this editor was recently blocked for contentious editing, in which a self-suggested condition of their unblocking was to discuss changes to accessibility rather than directly reverting them, especially when without reason. This latter action is what resulted in the discussion linked and the restoration of the code that was removed without reason.
:::The edit history at {{pagelinks|Module:Track listing}} (a module I have directly edited myself) is also quite interesting; there's quite a number of edits from the editor that weren't discussed before implementing, a behaviour that this editor has reported as unacceptable. I'm not quite sure how the standard works here? If someone could explain that, I'd greatly appreciate it.
:::I would also like to note that I have specifically asked the editor to discuss the content (as per a template's talk page), not the conduct (which belongs here) on the talk page, as shown . They have sinced replied thrice (), deliberately doing anything but; see my specification on what I have answered . I am attempting to discuss the content with the editor and iron out the issues that they may have with the changes, but one cannot discuss changes and gain any form of consensus if the other editor refuses to respond. Discussions must be two-way, not just posting "answer me then I'll answer you" then refusing to do so once I comply with their request. Here's an example of them copy-pasting the same bludgeoning answer (), despite me the content discussion between their posts. -- <span style="text-shadow:0 0 1px #8dd">''/]/]''</span> 07:27, 9 August 2020 (UTC)


Tulsi has now submitted an unblock request which I am copying:
:See also https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Template_talk%3AEpisode_table&type=revision&diff=971947134&oldid=971947051 and https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Template_talk%3AEpisode_table&type=revision&diff=971947469&oldid=971947222 ―]<span style="color:red">❤]☮]☺]☯</span> 07:34, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
::{{u|Koavf}}, what seems to be the issue there? Are you linking to the diff where I ask you if you're taking credit for my compromising suggestion to you? I would like to point out to the reading administrator that the reporting editor claimed I refused to provide an alternate option, I responded by providing three diffs where I did quite the opposite and suggested a compromise (my response and the three compromising comments ). They they claimed credit for my suggestions and when I asked them twice if they were doing exactly that, they refused to answer. They then claimed that my pings to them were harassment, but somehow, continuing to discuss conduct over content on a template's talk page after being requested not to is not. -- <span style="text-shadow:0 0 1px #8dd">''/]/]''</span> 07:48, 9 August 2020 (UTC)


{{talk quote block|Dear Sysops,
=== Section break ===
The thread on the talk page was... not illuminating. The above is not better. Let's try another format. I have questions for each of you. Please answer them directly and briefly. Do not mention the other's conduct.
* {{Ping|Koavf}} Per ], "A template editor should not revert the edit of their peer on a protected template without good cause, careful thought and (if possible) a prior brief discussion with the template editor whose action is challenged". Please
** 1) Please briefly (no more than 1-2 sentences) explain your "good cause" for reverting.
** 2) Was there "a prior brief discussion with the template editor whose action is challenged"? If so, where, and what was its result? If not, why? (You may briefly mention the other's conduct if you answer the last question, but only if their conduct is relevant.)
* {{Ping|Alex 21}} Per ], "When a template editor's edit is reversed by a peer, the edit (or a similar one) must not be reinstated by the original or another template editor without clear discussion leading to a consensus decision." Your edit was reversed (rightly or wrongly). You reinstated it.
** Where was the "clear discussion leading to a consensus decision"?
Please respond in the below space. Best, —] (]) 16:01, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
:* ''For Koavf'': 1.) Visual changes to templates are supposed to have substantial consensus ''before'' they are done. This was not done here: process-wise, there should be a discussion ''first''. 2.) There was no discussion before Alex 21's initial edit and there was ongoing discussion at ] when Alex 21 reverted: he didn't wait for more than two hours to try to reach consensus before reverting to this preferred version. ―]<span style="color:red">❤]☮]☺]☯</span> 20:50, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
:*:{{ping|Koavf}}
:*:
:*:1) OK. That's a procedural issue. Did you have any ''substantive'' issues with the edit?
:*:
:*:2) There was ongoing discussion when Alex reverted your revert. However, was there any discussion ''before you reverted Alex's original edit''?
:*:
:*:(Also, after you reverted Alex 21, they asked why you reverted them about two hours later, and then reverted your revert after about 16 hours (and over 3000 words between you).)
:*:
:*:Best, —] (]) 22:38, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
:*::{{u|Mdaniels5757}}, 1.) Yes, I do: this contradicts what users would expect, doesn't offer an option for hiding or displaying, and is contrary to the examples at ], which assume that it's a displaying caption. In addition to the procedural issue. 2.) So, six hours after the conversation started. He is not interested in a good faith attempt at consensus and is just reverting because he prefers it. This is obviously contrary to ] (in addition to the original edit itself, which was also contrary to that policy). This is the problem: there is an assumption of both good judgement about edits and collegiality about objections and he is ignoring both. Plus the harassment and misuse of {{tl|collapse top}}. ―]<span style="color:red">❤]☮]☺]☯</span> 23:10, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
:*:::{{ping|Koavf}} OK. Re #2, I think we're talking past each other. Was there any discussion before you reverted Alex's original edit (that is, before 12:15 UTC on the 8th)? —] (]) 00:47, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
:*::::{{u|Mdaniels5757}}, No. He initiated discussion after I reverted his edit. ―]<span style="color:red">❤]☮]☺]☯</span> 01:58, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
:*:::::OK, thanks. —] (]) 02:10, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
:* ''For Alex 21'':


I sincerely apologize for my past actions, which were problematic and deceptive. I fully understand the concerns raised, and I deeply regret my involvement. On April 3, 2024, my account was blocked by Rosguill in relation to undisclosed paid editing associated with the {{section link|Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive361|DIVINE and Tulsi: COI/UPE/quid-pro-quo editing, association with threats and harassment}}. However, I want to clarify that my involvement in these matters was minimal, with only minor interactions in the past. I have never written articles for payment, and I do not support paid editing.
This is the discussion that occurred between my starting it after the initial revert, up to my next restoration of my edit to the module. Noting that my last comment before the restoration was {{tq|oncerning "no obvious documentation", please don't lie.}}, this is the point where I later collapsed the rest of the discussion , as the discussion provided by the opposing editor continued onwards over conduct rather than content. It is at that point that I did consider and currently still consider the end of the discussion where content talk was given more than conduct talk.


The issues in question occurred ], prior to the block. At that time, I admitted my conflict of interest (COI) and disclosed it on the relevant article talk pages. Following discussions, my global and local rights were removed, but the block was not enforced until two years later. Many of the articles in question were deleted, so I did not find it necessary to disclose anything further. Moving forward, I have no intention of creating or editing COI-related articles. However, if I am ever in a situation where I am required to contribute to such an article, I will ensure full disclosure on the article talk page and submit it for review, as I did with the article ].
Per ], {{tq|onsensus can be presumed to exist until voiced disagreement becomes evident (typically through reverting or editing).}} Obviously, silent consensus existed but it was clear by the initial revert and voiced response to the discussion I started that this was no longer so. However, when an editor refuses to discuss the content, it is not possible to gain any agreement from them for their opposition, so one cannot contest the opposition.


While I respect Rosguill’s decision to impose a block after the two-year gap, I understand that a block serves to prevent disruption rather than punish. I have learned valuable lessons from this experience, and my contributions over the past two years reflect this growth. In this time, I have created , all without any undisclosed paid editing or COI involvement. Additionally, I have contributed to patrolling, as seen in the ] and ]s, and I have reported several violations on WP:UAA.
The decision for the level of consensus was determined by: remembering from ] that {{tq|onsensus on Misplaced Pages does not mean unanimity}}, that voiced agreement for the edit was given by another editor , and that there was no further opposition, and that the opposition from a single editor (an editor that had removed themselves from the content discussion) does not automatically mean that there is no consensus. -- <span style="text-shadow:0 0 1px #8dd">''/]/]''</span> 03:00, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
:{{ping|Alex 21}} I feel kind of silly for this, I totally missed the the third party in that section... (In my defense, that section is larger than the module it is discussing.) <small>Whether it meets the "clear discussion" requirement is an exercise left to the reader</small> —] (]) 03:38, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
::{{u|Mdaniels5757}}, no worries, I can easily see how it could be missed! The same editor replied again today with further support and a suggestion of {{tq|a flag parameter can be created to allow the caption if it does not duplicate information.}} This is the same suggestion I've made and commented on myself thrice , but to no response. -- <span style="text-shadow:0 0 1px #8dd">''/]/]''</span> 03:51, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Alex 21}} OK, thanks. I will make a proposal shortly. —] (]) 03:57, 10 August 2020 (UTC)


I acknowledge that I was not fully familiar with Misplaced Pages's policies in the past, but I have since taken the time to understand them better. I have been an active and committed user since October 2014, with significant contributions across various Wikimedia projects. I have also served as a sysop on Wikimedia Commons, Meta-Wiki, MediaWiki, and the Maithili and Nepali Wikipedias.
==== Proposal ====
{{ping|Alex 21|Koavf}} OK. Thank you both for humoring me with this ] service. I'm going to make a proposal and explain my reasoning.
* 1. As to the content: we make an it an option, rather than hardcoded one way or the other. (What the default should be is something not within the scope of AN.) Given that both of you have proposed this (with different defaults), I hope there's no objection to this.
* 2. Both of y'all deserve a ] for the... abundant... discussion you've created. Come on. I can't decide whose fault it is. Personally, I find the tone of Koavf's comments ever-so-slightly worse than Alex's, but, on the other hand, ", state your opposition to the edit. " is not a good way to open a productive discussion. In any case, both of y'all should do better.
* 3. As to Alex 21, this report is closed with a second trout. It was 2-1 in favor of their version, and the discussion, if you squint a bit, looks enough like "clear discussion leading to a consensus decision" that I think any action would be inappropriate. That said, (1) the discussion was not particularly clear (or at all, if I'm being honest), (2) any consensus reached was quite weak, and (3) it would have been more prudent to gain another editor's opinion instead.
* 4. We {{tl|hat}}/{{tl|hab}} the section on the talk page and start a new discussion on what the default should be. If both of you consent, I'd like to moderate it in some way so it's less of a shitshow than discussion to date.
Thoughts? —] (]) 04:18, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
:* 1. I agree with the flagged option, as I was the initial editor to suggest this. Understood that AN is not the location to determine the default, but I agree as long as it is defaulted to not show with the option to show. Templates should cater to the majority of uses and have a case for the minority, they should not cater to the minority of uses and have a case for the majority. To do this, I would suggest using keeping {{para|caption}} as an invisible caption, with {{para|visiblecaption}} as an optional replacement; not a flag as such, but replacing {{para|caption}} with {{para|visiblecaption}} to show it. However, as stated, not the place for it, so I'm happy to discuss it elsewhere.
:* 2. Perhaps {{tq|", state your opposition to the edit. "}} is not the best way to go, but editors need to learn that edits reverted without discussion is bad-faith editing and not at all collaborative. Per BRD, it is up to either editor to start a discussion. We'll all get along better when editors try to.
:* 3/4. If this report is closed, can we then get the template talkpage discussion closed as well, for completeness's sake? I assume that's what option 4 means with the hat/hab, which I agree with.
: -- <span style="text-shadow:0 0 1px #8dd">''/]/]''</span> 04:28, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
:{{u|Mdaniels5757}}, In terms of dispute resolution, sounds good: thanks. In terms of Alex 21's behavior and poor judgement as a template editor, I feel like you are missing this entirely. Do you not think his behavior here is inappropriate? ―]<span style="color:red">❤]☮]☺]☯</span> 05:21, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
::{{ping|Koavf}} I do think his behavior here is inappropriate. I also, however, think your behavior, and in particular your revert without discussion, was inappropriate (recall that per ], "(if possible)", you should have "a prior brief discussion with the template editor whose action is challenged", which you did not). I also don't think that ] is on the table for Alex, given that no "''pattern'' of obviously controversial edits to protected templates without first determining consensus" has been shown. If you wish for action to be taken against Alex, what action do you believe would be appropriate with respect to Alex's conduct? —] (]) 16:19, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
:::{{u|Mdaniels5757}}, I don't have a perspective on that: I'm leaving up to admins' judgement. My goal in posting here was not a matter of dispute resolution but one of point out inappropriate behavior on the part of an editor, so if you think it's just a matter for dispute resolution and then the behavioral issues is either non-existent or doesn't merit any particular action on your part, then {{shrug}}. {{ins|I just find it pretty shocking that in addition to his misuse of advanced user rights, he's also harassing me ''on this board'' as well as on the talk page and that this behavior doesn't merit any kind of action to curtail how he is acting. I figured using ] for harassment would be a ''really'' big no-no, but I guess not. This just emboldens him to harass other users in the future, including on the admins' noticeboard.}} ―]<span style="color:red">❤]☮]☺]☯</span> 18:47, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
::::How I have I harassed you at this board? Pinging you and responding to you is not harassment. I am required to ping you to notify that I have responded to you in the discussion we were a part of. Asking me not to ping you is you deliberately distancing yourself from the discussion, indicating that you have withdrawn from it.
::::In fact, if asking me not to do something and then me continuing to do it is considered harassment, then in the same vein, me asking you not to discuss conduct over content on a talkpage and then you continuing to do it can also be considered harassment. Per ], harassment is "to make editing Misplaced Pages unpleasant for the target, to undermine, frighten, or discourage them from editing"; is that not what you were doing by repeatedly ignoring my requests before I ignored yours? Be careful of ] when you come to AN.
::::Luckily, I'm not overly phased by your actions there, and I'm happy to continue discussing the content with you in a civil mannter, as suggested by Mdaniels. Shall we close the first discussion and start the second one about the conditions of in/visible captions? -- <span style="text-shadow:0 0 1px #8dd">''/]/]''</span> 01:31, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::People have been indeffed for using ''thank'' to poke opponents, although that has occurred in cases much more serious than this. Regardless of Koavf's sins, your inability to stop pinging him when requested is not a sign of collaboration. ] (]) 01:36, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
::::::Okay. Thank you for the clarification. I know you stated {{tq|egardless of Koavf's sins}}, but I do request for my own clarification, is the discussion of conduct over content on a talkpage after being asked not to also considered harassment? -- <span style="text-shadow:0 0 1px #8dd">''/]/]''</span> 01:41, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
:::The action against Alex 21 would be to revoke his template editor right because aggressive reverting using that right is not acceptable. There has probably been enough noise to hide the underlying issue and I don't have the energy to investigate. ] and the ] show the problem and Alex should be aware that such a style is not compatible with an advanced right. Even if Koavf was wrong and Alex right (I have no idea about that), the correct procedure would be for Alex to ''not'' revert (assuming no emergency) and to post a polite question about why Koavf had reverted along with a polite explanation for why Alex's edit should stand. ] (]) 01:22, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
::::Unfortunately, the issue between concerning the edit goes back before even I started the discussion. Remember that per ], {{tq| template editor should not revert the edit of their peer on a protected template without good cause, careful thought and (if possible) a prior brief discussion with the template editor whose action is challenged.}} No such good cause or prior brief discussion was provided by the opposing editor at the time. The correct procedure would have been to not revert at all at the very beginning, and go straight to discussion. -- <span style="text-shadow:0 0 1px #8dd">''/]/]''</span> 01:34, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::I see that I am unable to convince you so let me express it like this. I will remove your template editor right if you use it aggressively in the future. ] (]) 01:38, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
::::::Okay. Thank you for the notification. What of the opposing editor's template editor right? -- <span style="text-shadow:0 0 1px #8dd">''/]/]''</span> 01:39, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::::I'm sorry to have got heavy in this discussion because I see that you have done a lot of work at related modules. Nevertheless, I think the template editor right should be used only while in ''Pollyanna'' mode. I don't think it would be useful to discuss the general issue of whether Koavf should have done his revert here although I suspect the answer would be seen by investigating whether there was a clear consensus for your change before this incident. ] (]) 02:43, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
::::::::No worries. Indeed I have; over 3,000 edits to the template and module spaces. I don't get the ''Pollyanna'' reference, but in the future, I would just simply appreciate it if the opposing editor didn't cite a guideline while also not following it themselves. Hopefully we can get to the implementation discussion soon; I've already prepared the sandbox and testcases for the discussion of how to fix the caption issue. -- <span style="text-shadow:0 0 1px #8dd">''/]/]''</span> 03:03, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
:::{{u|Mdaniels5757}}, See discussion with Johnuniq below. He deliberately still doesn't get it, as far as I'm concerned. Are you saying that his behavior was acceptable? ―]<span style="color:red">❤]☮]☺]☯</span> 19:08, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
::::{{ping|Koavf}} I never said his behavior was acceptable; indeed, I said that "I do think his behavior here is inappropriate". Johnuniq characterized his use of the permission as "aggressive", and I agree with that. However, your behavior was not appropriate either (and also violated ], which you have been citing against Alex). If it were up to me (and it is not), I would still close this without action because (1) ] is a high bar that I don't think is met and (2) if Alex's behavior is poor enough that, per ], his permissions should be revoked, your behavior also meets that standard (that is, I don't see a way out of this where one of you is sanctioned and the other is not). In my opinion, it is in both of your best interests to ]. —] (]&nbsp;&bull;&#32;]) 19:30, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::{{u|Mdaniels5757}}, Okay, well thanks for providing your perspective. ―]<span style="color:red">❤]☮]☺]☯</span> 19:33, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
*{{yo|Koavf}} Which ''specific'' stipulation of ] are you alleging that Alex breached to begin with, in making the edit without prior discussion? It's not obvious to the casual observer. ] <sup>]</sup> 02:48, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
*:{{u|Swarm}}, "Changes that should be made ONLY after substantial discussion: Changes that significantly affect a template or module's visual appearance to the reader. "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if {{infobox}} were in shades of pink?" ... Bring it up on the talkpage first." which never happened. This initial edit should not have occurred and then I reverted and Alex started a conversation and reverted without any consensus (in addition to harassing me on the talk and ''this page''). ―]<span style="color:red">❤]☮]☺]☯</span> 03:07, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
:::So, to be clear, the change that was implemented was the generalized visual suppression of any and all captions, as a new default, that did not previously exist before? ] <sup>]</sup> 05:12, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
::*{{yo|Koavf}} ] <sup>]</sup> 04:16, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
::*:{{u|Swarm}}, That is correct: Alex 21's edit was one that "significantly affected a template or module's visual appearance to the reader" by taking a visual element and making it not display, which should have been discussed first and wasn't. Then, after this was brought to his attention, he reverted to his preferred version with no consensus (and harassed me on this page, etc., etc.) ―]<span style="color:red">❤]☮]☺]☯</span> 04:35, 14 August 2020 (UTC)


I am requesting an unblock because I am fully committed to abiding by all the established policies moving forward, and I am eager to contribute here in a constructive manner. Please kindly allow me a second chance.
{{re|Mdaniels5757}} It has come to my attention that the reporting editor has been blocked for a month for an unrelated incident. How do you propose we move forwards given this development? In preparation for the fourth point of your proposal and the second discussion that you had suggested, I had prepared edits and , ready to present. What is the best way to proceed? -- <span style="text-shadow:0 0 1px #8dd">''/]/]''</span> 01:40, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
{{abot}}


Thank you for your consideration. I humbly request your reconsideration and the restoration of the editing privileges on my account on English Misplaced Pages.
== ] ==
{{atop
| status =
| result = Blocked, possible master identified, article deleted. ] (]) 18:26, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
}}


Sincerely,
]&nbsp;] 14:39, 10 January 2025 (UTC)}}


Having had discussions with the blocking admin, we would like to seek community comments on the unblock request.


Tulsi was blocked after UPE allegations that had been outstanding for around 2 years essentially caught up with them. They have now attested to having never edited for pay, which was the question they originally failed to answer twice (], ]), leading to the block. In the unblock request, they give a sincere undertaking not to engage in any more UPE.
I am not sure, but is this a continuation of a banned account somewhere? Seems rather suspect to me. ] (]) 14:45, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
:The ] he has created contains all kinds of BLP violations - seems to be an attack page.-- ] (]) 14:56, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
::Yep, I read through that, was part of the concern I had for reporting here. ] (]) 15:00, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
:::Do you know who he is a potential sock of? If so, let us know so we can see if ] applies. If not then try at ]. ]] 15:05, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
::::I have no idea, but I am very suspicious of the type of user that creates a draft like that and thought it prudent to post here, thinking maybe one of the admins might notice something. Nothing else I can think of or do. ] (]) 15:13, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::This would likely be ], a recurring self-promoter (or someone closely involved in some social media drama). The case is stale, but seems to be re-activated after a longer break. ] was a previously-deleted article. Anyway, blocked the account as likely sock and deleted the draft due to serious ] concerns (and as sock-created, mostly nonsensical and/or private content). On a sidenote, putting controversial ] content into Misplaced Pages with "citation needed" tags is absolutely unacceptable. Thank you for the report. ] (]) 16:57, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
::::::I've G10'd the draft anyway - doing more digging there is no reason for this to remain up other than to bully/attack a troubled minor. I think there may be some IRL links to what's going on here, but that's not any of our business at this time. ] ] 17:02, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
{{OD}} Wow . Put both on my watchlist. --<b>] ]</b> 17:08, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
Dam, that went a fair bit deeper than I thought. ] (]) 18:32, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
{{abot}}

== Bunch of files in ] ==
{{atop|result = {{nac}} Moved to ]. As I realized that with the list there is no need to approve or decline the requests to remove the template. — <span style="color:#e08020">Alexis Jazz</span> (] or ping me) 20:02, 13 August 2020 (UTC)}}
{{U|Jonteemil}} added about 138 files to ] with double extensions. (and a few that are named like "Company SVG logo.svg")

Unlike Commons, ] doesn't list double extensions as a reason for renaming. It would probably not be ''very'' controversial, but.. it's not in the guideline and I don't know how long adding it may take. In the meantime, the category is very difficult to navigate.


They have created several dozen articles about Nepalese politicians but these seem to be innocuous. I have identified only a handful of articles where Tulsi could have edited for pay. Given the amount of other contributions Tulsi has made, it would be appropriate to give the benefit of the doubt. ] 15:14, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
From the admins I ask one the following:


*I cannot find the link for "A related meta-wiki discussion". <span>]]</span>  15:35, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
* A rough indication of how long it'll take to change the guideline, and this being a period of less than a week OR
**I've deleted those words. I had decided not to include them in my post, but accidentally left them in. For interest, the discussion was this one: ]. ] 15:38, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
* Support from several admins to carry out the about 138 rename requests for files with double extensions, including/excluding the "Company SVG logo.svg" cases (this will take a while) OR
*'''Support''' per ]. I will AGF that Tulsi will keep his promise not to engage in any COI editing going forward. ] (]/]) 16:07, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
* Support from several admins to decline them all pending a guideline change. (this could be done quickly with little effort) I have already backed up the move links at ] so the moves could be done after the guideline has changed.
* '''Question''': We are all volunteers here, so the applicant's comment {{tq|if I am ever in a situation where I am '''required''' to contribute to such an article}} (emphasis mine) is worrisome within the context of UPE/COI. Could they, or someone else for that matter, provide some clarification? ] (]) 19:57, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
*: I assume "required" is just poor phrasing and refers to circumstances similar to ] provided in the same sentence you quote. In any event, the second part of the sentence states {{tq|<em>I will ensure full disclosure on the article talk page and submit it for review</em>}} (emphasis added). That promise is enough for me. ] (]/]) 21:00, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Support''', we should generally give a second chance to users who have greatly and fundamentally changed in several months. Given that the user acknowledged the block and promised not to engage in undisclosed paid editing, not to mention that the user is trusted elsewhere, I see no reason to oppose. ] (]) 20:48, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Support''' I believe in their ability to address any concern in the future, given that they served as a sysop on Wikimedia Commons, Meta-Wiki, MediaWiki, and the Maithili and Nepali Wikipedias. ] (]) 21:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)


:'''Support''' A second chance promises that Tulsi will not do highly undisclosed paid editing. I may partially support a topic ban on Nepalese politics against Tulsi. ] (]) 05:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
I rather wouldn't be stuck with a maintenance category that's difficult to navigate. I also don't want to lose my file mover rights, which is why I'm asking admins. — <span style="color:#e08020">Alexis Jazz</span> (] or ping me) 19:56, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Make the most of the second chance ] (]) 23:05, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
:Btw, as ] is easier to work from, I'd remove the rename template exactly the same way from those 138 files, whether they get moved or not. — <span style="color:#e08020">Alexis Jazz</span> (] or ping me) 20:21, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' I had already been kind of watcxhing the discussion on their talk page over the last few days, and agree with an SO unblock. ] ] 23:34, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
:{{re|Alexis Jazz}} I think this situation is covered by ]. Double extensions are obvious errors that cause confusion as to the actual format of the file, so I'd be surprised if there was much controversy in renaming them. The "Company SVG logo.svg" naming style is context dependant. If there's no information in the title, it's probably okay to move per ], but if it has the company name and states that it's a logo, there's enough information that it probably should not be moved per ]. <span style="white-space: nowrap;">— ]]​</span> 21:05, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
::{{re|Wugapodes}} If it's covered by ] that would be fine. (I will await some more comments to confirm if that's the generally held opinion)) They don't necessarily cause confusion over the actual format though, for example ]. SVG logo examples: ], ] and ]. — <span style="color:#e08020">Alexis Jazz</span> (] or ping me) 21:15, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
:::Oh, okay, that's not so obvious then. I think the ".JPEG.jpg" may be worth renaming especially if they're recent uploads, but a scan of the category suggests none of the files look badly named enough to require immediate renames. I don't know much about the file namespace, so I'll bow out here. <span style="white-space: nowrap;">— ]]​</span> 21:33, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
{{abot}} {{abot}}


== Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist Edit Restriction Appeal ==
== Infinite IP blocks? ==
{{atop green|Unanimous consent after 36 hours to lift the restriction. ] (]) 14:25, 16 January 2025 (UTC)}}
A bit over a year ago, with near unanimous support, I appealed a TBAN from GENSEX - receiving in its place the following sanctions {{tq|1RR restriction in both the GENSEX and AMPOL topics; is limited to 0RR on articles for organizations/activists who are affiliated with anti-transgender activism or gender-critical feminism, broadly construed; and has a PBAN from Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull.}} Previous discussions are linked there. I am now requesting that my restrictions be dropped entirely because I have grown considerably as an editor, both since my initial TBAN when I'd just turned 19 and since the appeal.


I translated ] (having originally wrote it on eswiki during my TBAN) and made it my first GA. I uploaded multiple colorized photographs of transgender historical figures to commons I improved ] and wrote articles for famous trans activists ] and ]. I also cleared up serious BLP violations at ] and rewrote the article. I also helped expand ] and wrote ]. I improved ] and ]. I improved ]. I rewrote and considerably expanded ] as well as ]. I expanded the article on the ]. I wrote the article on the 1970 semi-governmental report '']''. I expanded the articles on ] and ]. I rewrote ] to follow ] and use systematic reviews instead of primary studies. '''Most proudly''', I wrote ] and took it to GA - this is particularly relevant as a key part of the original TBAN discussion was whether my commitment to removing misinformation from Misplaced Pages was a case of either ] or following ] and ].
I notice that we have some infinite IP blocks, some dating back to 2006, . I would hope that we would not need to set blocks for longer than five years. I think that we should remove any infinite IP block that is older than five years, and convert any IP block to a timed block if it is less than five years. It is of zero issue to reblock any IP address that re-abuses for another five years. — ] ''<span style="font-size:smaller">]</span>'' 02:07, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
:There's consensus that indefinite IP blocks are generally inappropriate, serve no meaningful purpose to the project, and should be lifted, see ]. tl;dr for the non-technically inclined: IPs can and ''do'' change, so the same person that was vandalizing Misplaced Pages 5+ years ago certainly isn't at that same IP anymore. Also, things have changed in the past few years; we now have not ], but ] bots identifying and blocking open proxies. -] 03:04, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
::There's also a list which includes IP ownership information at ]. It used to be worse, a few different people have gone through some of the oldest ones and cleaned them up. Though, I'm not sure why we're accumulating so many ''new'' indef blocks on individual IPv6 addresses... ] (]) 03:08, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
::: Probably misclicks. Twinkle defaults to indef blocks for certain rationales ("spam only", "vandalism only", etc). Twinkle (and other semi-automated tools) probably shouldn't allow people to indefinitely block IP addresses. I hate confirmation prompts, but MediaWiki should probably ask for confirmation, too. ] (]) 03:26, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
::::I agree. ]<sup><small><b>] ]</b></small></sup> 03:31, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
::::Twinkle doesn't ever default to indef for an IP; if that's the case, it's a bug. I agree that it should just prevent it from being manually selected, though; that's an easy change. ~ <span style="color:#DF00A0">Amory</span><small style="color:#555"> ''(] • ] • ])''</small> 09:37, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
:I usually check that list once a year, and leave a message on this thread reminding all admins to go through that list and search for indefinite IP blocks by their username. Many times, an admin will do this accidentally using Twinkle or another semi-automated tool and where they accidentally left the duration set to "indefinite". If they shouldn't be there, they should be reduced to a definite duration. If they should be there, the block reason should have an explanation as to why. ]<sup><small><b>] ]</b></small></sup> 03:29, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
::Thanks Oshwah. I generally don't overly pay attention to long term blocks here, more focusing elsewhere. I know that at meta and enWS that we are down to none, though note that the circumstances are different. I also know that when I was doing stewardry we stopped doing infinite blocks on IPs and the consequences at places has not been catastrophic. IMNSHO it should only be stepwise to infinite IP blocks, not the prime initial response. — ] ''<span style="font-size:smaller">]</span>'' 08:32, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
: Is there any reason we should not now remove all indefinitely IP blocks imposed more than three years ago, and to convert all indefinitely IP blocks imposed less than three years ago into three-year blocks?--] (]) 14:29, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
::That makes complete sense to me, I don't see why an IP should have an indef at this point. Edit: Looking at the list, I do have a caveat, some of these are blocked proxies, which I would think need to remain in place. A few look to be LTA socks that were ranged blocked as well. ] (]) 14:33, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
::There was a ] that unblocked all indef'd IPs from before 2009, handled by ]. ~ <span style="color:#DF00A0">Amory</span><small style="color:#555"> ''(] • ] • ])''</small> 15:32, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
:::Do we have any data on how many of those IPs are now re-blocked? Or have contributed? Perhaps we can release another tranche of the old infinite blocks. –]] 15:43, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
::::I went through 2 or 3 thousand in the block log and didn't see any marked by the mark blocked gadget. 2009 was chosen as it was essentially the toggle point; there were maybe a couple hundred total from 2009 and later, compared to ~20,000 before 2009. Per ] there were 126, roughly a fifth of which were from the last year. Many of those have been undone{{hp|ST47}}. That is, the scale is entirely different, I'm not sure there's a "tranche" left to go through! ~ <span style="color:#DF00A0">Amory</span><small style="color:#555"> ''(] • ] • ])''</small> 01:31, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::Thanks for the analysis! Looks like a case-by-case thing then. –]] 16:45, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
* A number (indeed, the majority) of those are proxies, TOR, webhosts, self-requested blocks via OTRS, and more importantly Oversight blocks. Why would you want to be removing them? ] 16:22, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
*: I thought it is quite uncommon for IPs to stay at the same location for years. If I remember correctly, open proxies very rarely live longer than 6 months.--] (]) 18:39, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
*:Only 2 are oversight blocks - I agree they should not be modified except by oversight team.
*:{{IP user|169.241.10.83}} was blocked by request of school district administration in 2006. I modified it in 2009 and wrote 'softblock' in the log summary but set it a hard block - I'm not sure which I meant to do or is appropriate now, 11 years later. Anyone can modify that one as they see fit. –]] 18:58, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
*::{{ping|Black Kite}} I am not saying that there are not legitimate blocks among that lot, I am saying that there will be illegitimate blocks in that range. To me that is contrary to our blocking policy. I also know that internet-wise that since those blocks have been in place much has changed in a global WMF system, tools, bots, etc., even IPv6. With eyes wide open we should be removing the many blocks with review as required, and where there is problem we will be (re-)imposing blocks. I just would just prefer long-term blocks to have an expiry date, not be set and forget. — ] ''<span style="font-size:smaller">]</span>'' 23:54, 11 August 2020 (UTC)


I believe the restrictions impair my ability to edit productively. I generally edit with 1RR regardless of sanctions. With 0RR, as Red-tailed hawk noted at my previous appeal "they can wind up restricting the sorts of partial reverts that are often a healthy part of the ordinary editing process." With 0RR, I am unable to engage in the BRD cycle properly and always second-guessing whether a partial edit to a recent edit counts as a revert or not. It also prevents me reverting drive-by SPA/IP povpushing. I don't plan to ever edit KJK's article again, but I believe that my record of neutral constructive editing shows the PBAN is no longer preventative or necessary. In the highly unlikely event I ever see a reason to edit it in future, I know my edits would be subject to heightened scrutiny which I'd welcome.
== Disruptive user U1Quattro ==


I appreciate your consideration. My best regards, ] (]) 01:02, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
] has a long long history of conflicts here at WP. Recently they nominated some articles for deletion which no one noticed until after an article was turned into a redirect. Me and another editor, ] proceeded to add sources to the articles in question (] and ]). U1Quattro, however, decided that this was unacceptable and began relisting, tag bombing, and generally showing that they are not able to function here. Basic things like are troubling, but I am more worried about the users refusal to engage in discussion. When reverted, they always double down. After some prodding, U1Quattro will sometimes post on a talkpage, but never without first re-reverting. CF ], .
:'''Support.''' ] (]/]) 01:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

:'''Support'''. Based on YFNS's activity since the original tban, I don't see any reason to believe that restrictions are necessary going forward. ] (]) 06:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
The user has several IBANs with a number of other users already, but understands the rules here at Misplaced Pages well enough to usually stop shy of anything getting a more severe reprisal. The user loves at the drop of a hat. Most recently , which led to more IBAN activity. On their user page they state the following: {{quote|You get on my nerves, I will bite hard. Plain and simple. If you don't like it, then avoidance is key.}} Not a good attitude to a collaborative project IMHO. Personally I do try to steer clear of this user because it is very stressful to interact with them, but this year U1Quattro has begun editing articles on old Japanese commercial vehicles which is an area of interest of mine.
:'''Support'''. Welcome back comrade. ] (]) 06:56, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

:'''Support''' based on their editing activity between TBAN and last year, as well as between the sanctions and now. Good work, and a great example of how this restorative process is ''supposed'' to work. May you inspire other misguided people to a path of restoration. ]&thinsp;] 08:27, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
The user is a self-proclaimed deletionist but often deletes things indiscriminately. Sometimes they introduce errors through haste or carelessness. As an example, as I attempted to get U1Quattro to own their errors and apologize for sloppy editing (introducing factual error: changing the meaning of a sentence not because they disagreed with it or because it was disputed but just through sloppiness). As usual, they responded aggressively and will not own their mistakes. At ] U1Quattro changed the classification of the car, a question which does not have a clear answer. There are tons of sources that support A, B, or both A and B in this question, and so it is deserving of a discussion. I reverted, citing ], but naturally U1Quattro re- and then re-reverted.
:'''Snow Support''' ] (]) 14:15, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

:'''Strong support'''. To me YNFS comes across as a very responsible editor and I believe these restrictions are no longer warranted. ] (]) 16:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
Anyhow, any user can change and I had sort of been expecting U1Quattro to mellow out over the years, but they are just as strident, combative, and generally unpleasant to deal with as they have always been. I am not sure if I ought to ping some of the many other users with which U1Quattro has had disagreements with in the past; please advise. This ANI post is, btw, done reluctantly and after long consideration as U1Quattro has thus far succeeded in pushing out a number of users with whom he has argued with, but it is becoming a bit tough to do good work as of late. <span style="background:#ff0000;font-family:Times New Roman;">]]</span> 05:31, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
:'''Support''' I remember the original ban happening due in large part to canvassing on twitter, the fact that any restrictions remained in place thereafter strikes me as a deep miscarriage of justice. ] (]) 23:26, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
:There are signs of just generally lazy editing, many of these AfD's boil down for me to "article quality bad, delete lol" and they very rarely produce many valid specific criteria for deletion. Incivility does appear to be a genuine concern here and, as noted, their behaviour hasn't changed much past being rather hostile and oftentimes defensive from what I can tell. ] ] 05:43, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
'''Query''' Does your reference to BRD mean that you undertake to follow it in the future? ] (]) 14:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
::'''Comment:''' First of all, I don't have several IBANs as OP claims here. I only have one ongoing IBAN with a user. Second of all, {{u|Davey2010}} has started this mess by the use of offensive language and causing disruption. Instances can be seen , , and so I'm not the only one to blame over here for behavourial outbursts. The articles were nominated for deletion per ] and they still cite a majority of manufacturer sources which is something against ]. Third of all, as far as ] goes, the OP claims that there are "several" sources that call that a sports car but so far I have seen none. I, however, added the sources which call it a grand tourer. Fourth, about my user page, that is my personal name space. I can write what I want there, I don't think there is a need to point that out. Fifth, about ], I had already notified this user that if they have corrected the errors then it is fine by me. I don't see any issues with that neither I see a need to apologise over a petty mistake. I'm not the only one to blame here simply put, there are others who have been at fault too including the OP.]&nbsp;] 06:06, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
:'''Enthusiastic support''' YFNS is a perfect model of an editor who is an asset to Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 15:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
:::"Actually no, You started this mess by reverting the article back to a redirect even tho it was sourced ... Sure you might of disagreed with the sources used however your next option would've then been AFD again. You also started all of this by edit warring with various people.....
:'''Support''' A well worded appeal, worth giving another chance. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:20, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
:::As for offensive language - Sure I'll give you the first one but other than that I've remained calm and patient throughout.
*'''Support''' This is a convincing and sincere appeal. ] (]) 00:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
:::Something quite clearly needs to be done here with this user. –]<sup>]</sup> 11:02, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''', Welcome. ~] ] <sup>「] / ]」</sup> 02:33, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*U1Quattro may well be a productive editor; I haven't seen any evidence of it but that's partly because the most eye-catching feature of this editor is the slew of fights they get in. I see now that I blocked them for violating an iBan. is one from this year, a {{U|Floquenbeam}} block, which U1Quattro tries to blame on the other party. What is noteworthy in all these is the "OH ITS NOT ME ITS THEM" attitude, which contrasts nicely with last month's And that user page is just asinine, completely unbecoming of someone who wants to work in a collaborative effort. Yes, that one comment by Davey wasn't great, but that's not blockable--though Davey knows I don't always appreciate their language. But while I have no intimate knowledge of the amount of disruption caused by the edits that this discussion started with, they warrant investigation, as does the attitude. ] (]) 14:43, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' as they have convincingly demonstrated change. '']''<sup>]</sup> 02:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*The user should be '''community-banned.''' What they write on their user page alone - "You get on my nerves, I will bite hard. Plain and simple. If you don't like it, then avoidance is key" - indicates that they are not temperamentally suited to participating in a collaborative project. Their block record confirms that impression. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 14:46, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
**{{U|Sandstein}}, I wonder if it's later in the day where you are, if the sun of human kindness has already sunk; for me the day is still fresh and young, the cup half-full and all that, but I know that's just my silly optimism. Thank you--you are right. ] (]) 14:58, 11 August 2020 (UTC) *'''Support''' I supported and still support the original restrictions, and the later now appealed restrictions. I think YFNS's case has shown that an editor can come back from the brink successfully and am happy that happened. ] (]) 04:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
{{abot}}
***Where I am it's late in the afternoon on a hot summer's day and I'm sitting in a shady garden just having opened a can of cold beer (the first today; maybe not the last), but I still can't find enough kindness in me to say that Sandstein is wrong, especially given U1Quattro's outburst here, which shows a total lack of self-awareness. Who knows, maybe without this editor cars will drop off the list of topic areas, like professional wrestling and hurricanes, that seem to a non-fanatic to be uncontroversial but actually keep generating drama. ] (]) 16:12, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
****Cheers Phil. All the best to you. ] (]) 16:58, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Comment:''' {{u|Drmies}} the statement about the admins was said to a user who was disruptive as well as aggressive. I don't say that I'm not at fault in the disputes I get in. The other party is as equally responsible as me. Which is exactly what happened during that AN3 discussion as well as over ] which you have pointed out.]&nbsp;] 16:08, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
**Considering Fram and Phil Bridger's comments above, U1Quattro, I have an idea, and I wish you'd had that idea too: why not start by scrapping, on your user page, everything between "As a human" and "not welcome"? Your career is dangling by a thread here, and surely we can't all be completely wrong and you the only one who's right. ] (]) 16:58, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
**U1 - I'm not at all equally responsible for this no where near and to say I am is yet again taking the "Blaming others" approach, Sure I could've saved us the edit warring and done the RFC myself however given I'm not the one who had a problem with the image I sort of saw it as being pointless. Obviously you're aware of ] too. –]<sup>]</sup> 17:34, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
*I have never claimed that I'm always right. Neither here, nor anywhere else. I have pointed out that other parties are as responsible as me for starting the dispute {{u|Drmies}}. The sense of humour thing has nothing to do with collaborative effort as discussed by Phil and Sandstein. I have, however, made some changes to the user page.]&nbsp;] 18:10, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

A note: somehow or other ] drifted away without any sanction for U1Quattro at all. That was unfortunate. Given that they continually get in conflict with a rotating cast of other editors, I would like to suggest that a long enforced break would be beneficial to the project. --] (]) 21:40, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
*I see that, ]--it shouldn't have just disappeared. There was a clear consensus for an iBan, for starters. Let's hope that there's a couple admins around who will close this properly, no matter what the outcome. I'm thinking that a three-month block would be a good start. They made a few minor changes to their user page, so I'll forgo calling for an indefinite block. ] (]) 01:23, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
:Yes please. Or a change in behavior, that would be just as nice. As it stands, U1Quattro is doubling down at ] and being allowed to continue exactly the sort of behavior that so many find problematic. The problem isn't so much what the user page states but that it perfectly expresses not only how U1Quattro feels about other editors but also how they edit. How many editors have to chime in before there is an administrative response? Thank you, <span style="background:#ff0000;font-family:Times New Roman;">]]</span> 23:50, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

*'''Comment:''' Again the issue is being about the same page about which the OP claims is a sports car while they have failed to present any sources that state it is a sports car. They used the undo button when I was trying to add the source and still did not bother with adding the sources when they had started a talkpage discussion. I had added the sources which supported what I had said. This behaviour by the OP shows that they are just as responsible as me for the disruption at ].]&nbsp;] 01:10, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
*:{{tqq|they are just as responsible as me for the disruption}} is not an acceptable standard. If you are {{tqq|just as responsible}} as another user for disruption, both you and the other user risk sanctions. If you are ''repeatedly'' {{tqq|just as responsible}} for disruption as another user, especially multiple other users, you risk serious sanctions. The acceptable standard is: complying with ]s, ''regardless'' of what another user does. <big><sup>]</sup>]<sup>]</sup></big> 01:19, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
*::If the other user is responsible then they should also be sanctioned instead of me taking all the blame for the disruption caused. If we take ] as an example, the edit warring was and they deserve equal sanction for violating ].]&nbsp;] 02:21, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
::::I was not engaging in an edit war, I followed the ] guidelines (and have continued not to violate 3RR even after U1Quattro refuses to restore the original content as they are supposed to do as per BRD). Bold, Revert, '''Discuss.''' It's not Bold, Revert, Re-revert. And TVR Cerbera is not the issue, this is just a part of a years long inability to be civil, to interact properly, and to be a good faith editor.

::::U1Quattro has mastered the art of the ], always doing their utmost to change the discussion to something that suits them better. I implore the admins to look at U1Quattro's talk page, history, user page, block log, etc etc. Something has to be done. Clearly U1Quattro is absolutely refusing to even consider modifying their behavior, continuing only to blame every single other editor who ever disagrees with them about anything, however minor a detail. <span style="background:#ff0000;font-family:Times New Roman;">]]</span> 13:47, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

:::::] is not mandated by wiki policy. Yet the OP continues to mention and has been trying to force me to follow it. Further, the OP has also violated ] which is infact mandated by policy. They have also refused to engage in a discussion at ] which highlights their inability to discuss things. I'm not saying I'm right but the OP has been wrong and has violated a policy for which they should also be sanctioned.]&nbsp;] 16:24, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

*'''Support CBAN''' per Sandstein. Based on the discussion here and at numerous prior ANI threads, it seems this user is completely unwilling to take ''any'' feedback on board. I have yet to see any acknowledgment of a problem, never mind a commitment to improving. I think any further discussion is hopeless. ]]] 16:42, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

*'''Comment:''' I had my fair share of scrap with U1Quattro, which is why I backed off of him so I wouldn't get tangled with how he talks to people. Threatening to take it to Arbitration or ] as well as making the odd false accusation, but I won't go into too much details since it already been said and gone. However I made the choice to not clash with him because I knew, from how he speaks and edit would make any rational user on here to become fed up with his attitude. --] (]) 16:49, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
*I saw Davey's most recent 3RR report against U1Quattro the other day (maybe it was yesterday?) but I was busy and didn't do much digging; I had chastised Davey in a similar report not too long ago about reporting editors for 3RR when they were also revert warring. I was going to indef block U1Quattro for the "idiot" comments in that dispute but, I don't know, I was busy or something. After reading this I'm leaning towards agreeing with Sandstein that U1Quattro should just be indeffed until they ''get it''. What is ''it''? It's the attitude that they can do no wrong, that they can pick and choose which community standards to follow, that others' transgressions forgive their own, that if they're sanctioned then someone else must also be sanctioned and if not then there is nothing to learn, that they have no obligation to take suggestions or advice from anyone. Basically what Levivich said, but worse because U1Quattro has had these things explained repeatedly and they continue to not improve, and there's only so much ] that admins can extend. {{yo|U1Quattro}} if someone doesn't decide to block you as a result of this report, it's very likely that the next time your behaviour leads to a report on one of these conduct noticeboards, you will be, and for a long time. What will '''you''' do to avoid being reported again? Don't talk about other editors in your response. ] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 16:51, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
*Since I was pinged above: I do not have time to review the newest situation in any detail, but I have observed U1Quattro's interactions with other editors for a while now, and believe that if U1Quattro can't stop feuding/fighting with so many people, they should be indef blocked. So, '''if''' the closing admin believe this can be construed as yet another case of feuding/fighting with yet another editor - ''no matter how minor it seems in isolation'' - then I support a CBAN; if '''not''', then I have no opinion either way. That's probably of limited use, sorry. --] (]) 16:57, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
*{{u|Ivanvector}} I have done what the administration required me to do at my user page. As far as behavioural issues go, I would avoid getting across some editors present in this thread due to behavioural issues of their own. Other than that, I will do effort to change my behaviour with how I deal with editors here.]&nbsp;] 17:10, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
**This is a very unsatisfactory response. I suggest you read ] and try again. ] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 17:21, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
**That doesn't sound convincing. I'm not under the impression that you have any clue what went wrong. — <span style="color:#e08020">Alexis Jazz</span> (] or ping me) 18:28, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
:::Then I will bow out simply because any response that I give which does not contain the words that I'd cooperate with every editor I come across no matter how they are or how bad their attitude is, my response would be considered unsatisfactory.]&nbsp;] 18:53, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
::::No, you fail recognize your ''own'' mistakes. ''That'''s the problem. — <span style="color:#e08020">Alexis Jazz</span> (] or ping me) 19:42, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support siteban''' given the response directly above this. Preemptively refusing to collaborate is an attitude incompatible with editing here. ] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 18:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Comment:''' I refuse to collaborate with editors using language . If you think using the word "idiot" warranted an indef block then what about this?]&nbsp;] 18:59, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
::] . — <span style="color:#e08020">Alexis Jazz</span> (] or ping me) 19:42, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
:::{{u|Alexis Jazz}} I'm not making an unblock request. Even when blocked, I won't. Because when I'm expected to contribute with such people for being unblocked, I'd rather stay blocked.]&nbsp;] 20:02, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
::::{{u|U1Quattro}} So you are essentially asking to be blocked in order to have a healthy discussion about ''your'' behaviour because you can't comprehend ] otherwise? — <span style="color:#e08020">Alexis Jazz</span> (] or ping me) 20:09, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::It mightn't be necessary, but I would like to point out that U1Quattro's link above regards a third editor, not me (OP). It's a boomerang flung after someone else. <span style="background:#ff0000;font-family:Times New Roman;">]]</span> 20:34, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support regular indef block''' till user adequately addresses their problem with interactions (and any other condition agreed to here) ]. --<b>] ]</b> 21:45, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support CBAN''' per Levivich, for consistent intransigent behavior, even continuing on his talk page after being blocked. ] (]) 22:30, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
=== Blocked ===
U1Quattro has made 10 edits in this discussion, each one failing or outright refusing to acknowledge that their own poor attitude is the reason we're here talking about this, not the defensive reactions of the users they keep getting in fights with. A reasonable person ought to have long ago clued into the fact that getting in fights all the time might ''not'' mean that everyone ''else'' is to blame, particularly after so many editors have tried to explain, but U1Quattro just ], and we've all wasted enough time. U1Quattro is indefinitely blocked. There is fairly strong consensus to elevate this to a ] but that discussion should continue. ] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 21:01, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
:As I note above, I think this is a reasonable outcome, pending an agreement from U1Q to significantly alter their interactions with others. If that happens, I'm OK with this not being a community-imposed CBAN, requiring another community discussion to unban. Just a normal indef bock is fine. '''Also''' I noticed the edit summary that U1Q linked to just above, and just want to say somewhere for posterity, "no, you don't have to put up with that". I've left a warning for the other editor. --] (]) 21:12, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
::+1 all of the above. I'll counter-note, however, that it seems as though U1Q was campaigning against any development of that article for several days before Davey's clearly frustrated outburst. Not that that makes it okay, but, you know, context does matter. Also also: Davey had already acknowledged and apologized after the first time U1Q dropped that diff in this thread, and U1Q bringing it up a second time to a different admin is clearly ], and more evidence of their battleground mentality. ] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 21:28, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

*FYI I've apologised to U1 for that outburst, As explained on my talkpage I've worked 3-4 days on that article trying my damned best to source it and improve the article as much as I could .... so i'll be honest it was disheartening and frustrating to see someone come alone and simply wipe away the work I put in,
:Still I shouldn't of said what I did and I apologise for that edit summary, Thanks, –]<sup>]</sup> 21:35, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
::IMO, absolutely warranted by a country-mile but still uncivil - thank you for your apology and outstanding work to recover these articles :) ] ] 21:42, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I have observed U1Quattro pushing several other editors over the edge in the past. I could be wrong, but I remember at least ], ], ], and ] all getting in hot water over altercations with U1Q. There are probably more. I don't know if their statuses warrant any sort of reconsideration? Obviously they should have all been better at dealing with situations, but it has been frustrating to watch mostly good editors leaving and getting blocked. <span style="background:#ff0000;font-family:Times New Roman;">]]</span> 22:08, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

:{{u|Mr.choppers}} Why should I be reconsider over this? After the IBAN between U1Quattro and Ybsone I backed away and tried to avoid the commotion as much as I could. Because I knew I would of end up in all sorts of mess if I kept getting involved. I already learnt the hard way of that happening to me anyway. --] (]) 22:35, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
::Gonna chime in here and say Tps leaving was more to do with me than it was him. (U1 for whatever reason jumped on my AN3 report but either way U1 wasn't the reason). No comment on the rest but Tps IMHO should be struck. –]<sup>]</sup> 00:11, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
:::Allright, then I was worrying for nought. Good. <span style="background:#ff0000;font-family:Times New Roman;">]]</span> 00:56, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

== Draftifying old unmaintained content translation tool articles ==


== Copyvio Problem ==
Yesterday I approached {{u|S Marshall}} about draftifying an ] which had been created in 2016 and whose original author is no longer active. In ], it came out that they plan to draftify up to 1200 more similar articles based on a ], which had never actually been implemented.


Hey all, I believe that these three diff should be redacted as copy vio's, thanks. There are several sentences which are directly lifted from the sources. Some one more experienced should likely have a look through the revision I restored as well. I didn't spot anything, but I may have missed something.
In August 2017, the community ], regardless of whether they went through the AfC process. This means that these 1200 articles, if moved to draftspace, will languish for six months and then be summarily deleted. I don't believe that this was the intent of the July decision.


] says that moving articles to draft space is {{tq|'''not''' intended as a backdoor route to deletion}}. As the changes to draftspace in August 2017 made the July 2017 decision an effective deletion of these articles, I propose that the decision to draftify them all be revisited, and these 1200 articles be dealt with through the ] in some form, either individually or en masse.


] (]) 22:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
Here are a couple of options that I can think of:
* Bring back the and use that instead, at least for the obviously uncontroversial ones;
* Tag them all for ] (ideally with a method to deal with anyone who reverts them all just to make a point);
* Use the AfD process as usual, handling uncontested nominations as ].
Other editors more familiar with the history of the content translation discussions will surely have other ideas, and those are most welcome. – ]] 13:48, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Delete - Unless they're notable''' per the ]. I'm inclusionist by nature, ''but'' I agree, drafting an article should never serve as a backdoor to deletion, that gamesmanship! Delete them unless they're notable. ]] 14:21, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
**{{u|Wekeepwhatwekill}}, how and where do we determine whether these are notable? I agree with your standard, but I'm not clear on how we can decide that for 1200 individual articles. – ]] 14:39, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
***{{U|Bradv}} We already have ]. They would work well in all of these cases! :) ]] 16:12, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
****{{ping|Wekeepwhatwekill}} To clarify Bradv's question a bit: Suppose we stumble across an old CXT-created article whose topic does not meet our notability guidelines. Bradv is asking ''how'' we should delete the article, not ''whether'' we should delete the article: should we revive the X2 speedy deletion criterion, use PROD, use AfD, or move them to draft space? ] (]) 16:25, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
::::: {{U|Mz7}} ok....got it. I move for X2 speedy deletion. ]] 18:34, 11 August 2020 (UTC)


:To be clear, I don't think that @] is really at any fault here.
*Bradv has a point that draftify doesn't mean what it did when this was determined. Also, though I may be being a bit glib since I've admittedly not closely examined that massive old discussion, I don't see the urgency that would necessitate drafti-deleting them en masse. Restrictions have been placed on the content translation tool, and we're just left with these 1200 possibly non-notable and/or sub-par articles. 1200 sounds like a lot until you realize that's the normal number of new articles created every couple days here, so it doesn't seem like an "it's just too much work to handle them individually" issue. &mdash; <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 16:04, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
:] (]) 22:37, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
* Alas, it seems that after three years, interest in cleaning up the mess created by the poorly rolled-out content translation tool has diminished considerably. I would like to begin by thanking S Marshall for their continued efforts in this area. However, I also think that this discussion to revisit the 2017 decision to draftify the 1200 articles on that list is reasonable. It seems to me that the simplest solution at this stage is to use ] in lieu of draftifying. I'm not sure we need to do the PROD-tagging ''en masse''. As I understand it, S Marshall has been going through the list somewhat organically and individually moving them to draft space; I think a reasonable alternative is to simply use ] instead of moving to draft space. ] (]) 16:39, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
::@] please see {{tl|copyvio-revdel}} on how to tag copyvios for attention. ] (]) 08:04, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*{{u|Bradv}}, Fixing them is an option. But they can't really be left in mainspace and if can be bothered to fix them then why should we care? ''']''' <small>(] - ])</small> 16:48, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
**I'm not sure that they can't be left in mainspace, nor do I have an opinion on whether they should. But if the idea here is that we can dump them in draftspace and let people work on them, that won't work. It probably wouldn't have worked in 2017 either, before the G13 expansion, but it definitely won't work now. – ]] 17:47, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
*This whole backlog attracts a lot of attention from those who want to decide how someone else should fix it. It doesn't get much attention from people who want to muck in and fix it.{{pb}}I shan't be using PROD. I've tried, and what happens is, the PROD patrollers look at it and see what superficially looks like a plausible/fixable article, so they want to send it to AfD; and that's a set of interactions that makes me tired and demotivated. Mz7 is welcome to PROD them all and then deal with the deproddings.{{pb}}Those of you who want to change how I deal with it: please come up with a suggestion that you, personally, are willing to implement. Or else leave it to me, in which case, please just let me do it this way.—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 17:52, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
::{{tq|the PROD patrollers look at it and see what superficially looks like a plausible/fixable article, so they want to send it to AfD}} — isn't that the deletion process working exactly as it should? It sounds like you are saying you are moving these to draft because you don't want to deal with deleting them through the usual channels, but ] is explicitly ''not'' supposed to be used like this. If you're feeling tired and demotivated by this task, take a step back from it; ]. &ndash;&#8239;]&nbsp;<small>(])</small> 19:28, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
:::Indeed, and I ''have'' taken a break from it. I didn't edit at all in 2018, and then I came back in 2019 to find that nobody had done any work on the backlog in my absence. The issue is that we're now four years after the WMF's stupidity created this issue in the first place, and there are BLPs among these articles, and they do contain mistranslations. Please, please read the ] with an open mind, reflect on it, and understand the whole problem in context before opining that it's fine to leave these in the mainspace.—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 21:45, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
:::{{tq|isn't that the deletion process working exactly as it should?}}
:::Not really. Because in cases like this, the process is so inherently glacial and frustrating that ''no one wants to do it''. So the articles sit, stagnate and basically just cling to the hull of Misplaced Pages like barnacles. The deletion process, in this case, is actually detrimental to improving the Wiki. &mdash; <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:36, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
*We should take a look at each one, even if only brief, but I can't find a proper list of the 1200 affected articles. ] is a mixed bag. {{ping|S Marshall}} if you want help, you have to provide ''at least'' the list or affected articles, or for those already moved, drafts. I could probably help, but I NEED a list. Right now you are about to draftify 1200 articles (I assume you haven't draftified all of them yet?) and I have no idea exactly which articles that will be, which is a bit frightening. — <span style="color:#e08020">Alexis Jazz</span> (] or ping me) 19:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
:*Sure. I used to work off ], but someone called ] decided that list had been superseded by another list in their userspace that I found much harder to work with; so now I'm keeping the list of stuff I haven't looked at yet in my sandbox ].{{pb}}I should be clear that I ''absolutely do not'' intend to draftify 1200 articles in the next few days. I've been looking at them at a rate of about a dozen a week -- and of those, at least half of them pass my sniff test. When they do, I simply mark the affected article with {{tl|translated}} on its talk page (to make the article Terms of Use compliant) and then remove it from my list without draftifying. It's only when I'm not completely confident that I speedy-move it to draft space.{{pb}}What you're looking for here is software mistranslations. When the WMF deployed that tool, they encouraged people to move articles from one wiki to another. Unfortunately, the way it was deployed encouraged users from foreign-language Wikipedias to use the tool to move articles to en.wiki ''even when those users didn't speak English''. And a lot of the articles were then fixed up into plausible English ''by people who didn't speak the source language''. Unfortunately, this means the algorithm introduced translation errors that nobody has detected yet.{{pb}}If you'd like to help, please do start with the BLPs, because I've found some amazing howlers. Feel free to edit that list; the fact that it's in my userspace shouldn't deter you in the slightest.—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 19:17, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
:::{{ping|S Marshall}} I see no issues with ] (en ik begrijp Nederlands), 1 down, 1199 to go. What do you mean with "mark the affected article with {{tl|translated}} on its talk page (to make the article Terms of Use compliant)"? — <span style="color:#e08020">Alexis Jazz</span> (] or ping me) 20:01, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
:::*Yes, exactly like that! Thank you. The Terms of Use thing is because translating from one language Misplaced Pages to another is technically ] so we have to credit the original authors on the foreign-language wiki for their work. (Strictly speaking there's a lacuna in that procedure, if the foreign-language article gets deleted but we keep ours; the contributors can no longer be identified so we're in breach of our terms of use. It's a rare but not unknown case which I view as an administrative headache rather than an editorial one.)—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 21:46, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
*Unless this discussion reaches consensus on an alternative procedure, I intend to resume my work on this backlog on the basis of the 2017 consensus, which will mean continuing to draftify.—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 14:16, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
::{{ping|S Marshall}} Can you put this on hold for a few days while I think about alternative procedures? I have a reputation. — <span style="color:#e08020">Alexis Jazz</span> (] or ping me) 19:13, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
::*No problem.—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 20:39, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
*I guess it's unsurprising there haven't been a lot of new ideas here – we have fairly well-established processes for deleting articles, and there doesn't seem to be anything too unusual about these other than there are a lot of them, and not a lot of people want to work on them. {{pb}} At this point I'd suggest adding something along the lines of {{tl|Cleanup translation}} to each of these articles, which will provide two functions: (a) place these articles in a tracking category, and (b) advise the reader that the content needs help. Then, as time permits, we can go through each of these articles and nominate the non-notable ones for AfD. I would be willing to help with this process. {{ping|S Marshall|Alexis Jazz}} is this a workable plan? – ]] 13:42, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
:*Well, when you say "there doesn't seem to be anything too unusual about these", I don't really agree with you, and I would respectfully refer you to all the excitement in the discussion that I previously linked. There were a lot of longstanding, respected editors in favour of some drastic, prompt and novel actions, and that's why the community used an edit filter to stop any more of these articles being created, and it's why when I (personally) suggested that we invent a new speedy deletion criterion for these, it gained sufficient consensus to be implemented within a few days. Have you read enough of that discussion to understand why?—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 14:31, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
:*:Perhaps you can explain what I'm missing. From what I can see, there were originally about 3600 articles that needed to be dealt with, and now we're down to 1200. Presumably those aren't the worst offenders, which is why you boldly deprecated the X2 criteria saying it was no longer necessary to speedy-delete these. In the discussion, you yourself objected to draftifying these articles, saying {{tq|Draftification is exactly the same as deleting them. Nobody is going to fix these up in draft space.}} So if we can't speedy them, and we can't draftify them, why can't we enlist the readers help in fixing them up, and AfD them as necessary? What am I missing? – ]] 14:52, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
:*::It boggles the mind that these articles ''still'' haven't been tagged as possibly containing faulty translations. That should have been the very first step. – ]] 14:55, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::*You're right to say that there were originally 3,600 and we're down to the last third of them. A lot of the 3,600 were low-hanging fruit, capable of being summarily deleted or promptly removed from the working list. What's left are the edge cases, neither the worst offenders nor the obviously unproblematic; they need to be reviewed by a human. You're also right to say that I thought draftifying them was the wrong call. I'm working with that process now because firstly, that was the consensus, and on Misplaced Pages the consensus is king even when it's wrong, and secondly, it's an easy way for me to get stuff out of mainspace. If I work the easy way, then there's some prospect of me finishing the job in the next couple of years.{{pb}}The problem with AfD is the process. At the time these articles were created, the content translation tool encouraged users to generate machine translations and dump them directly into other-language Wikipedias. If I had a mind, I could do this at the rate of about five or six articles a minute, into any language including ones I don't speak. And people ''did''. The effort involved in AfD is utterly disproportionate. Besides, AfD participants assess for notability and the existence of sources, very few of them have read ] or have the foreign-language fluency necessary to understand why we have that rule. So I send the article to AfD and they go "It's plausible English, there are sources, so you need to go and fix it!" and it all gets thrown back onto my plate, and I'm simply not going to do that any more. ''You'', however, are welcome to go through the list in that way.{{pb}}Why can't we enlist readers to help in fixing them up? Well, as I'm sure you know, we don't have that many active editors, and the ones we do have are doing their own volunteer work, much of which is important. This conversation in a highly visible place has led to one (1) volunteer editor checking one (1) article.—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 15:46, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
::::::{{ping|S Marshall}} That was just to test the waters..
::::::{{ping|Bradv}} I like your idea. Do you already know how to tag them? Or do I need to figure that out? Once we have them sorted by source language like that, we can enlist the help from other language wikipedias. Adding the {{tl|translated}} template to all talk pages should be a similar job. — <span style="color:#e08020">Alexis Jazz</span> (] or ping me) 15:00, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
::::::::I think Bradv means tagging them with {{tl|cleanup-translation}}, or possibly developing a custom tag for this article category. Have you spent much time on other language Wikipedias? I hope you're able to enlist help from them, but in my experience the culture is very different, and the editors who're willing and able to help with en.wiki translations are all already here.—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 15:19, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::::::{{tq|Have you spent much time on other language Wikipedias?}} ] you see. We first need to get these articles sorted by language. (which could be done with {{tl|Cleanup translation}}) I would be happy to go over the entries that originated from nlwiki and we may find others who are willing to do the same for other languages, but we must categorize the articles first before we can effectively enlist help. — <span style="color:#e08020">Alexis Jazz</span> (] or ping me) 08:17, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
{{unindent}} The languages have been partially populated at ] so you can probably get most of that information by cross-referencing. Failing that, the tool links to the source article in the edit summary of the first edit. How do you propose to deal with Bradv's initial question about dealing with the ones that don't belong in mainspace?—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 10:56, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*Any page created by a computer should ''not'' be reviewed by a human before being deleted. You'd think after redirect spam, portal spam, etc., ''everybody'' in the community would be on board with the wisdom of "nuke spam on sight" as opposed to "let's go through thousands of semi-automatically-created pages one by one to make sure we don't accidentally delete any precious snowflakes". Draftifying them, which gives 6 months for anyone who wants to to work on them (why doesn't ARS rescue drafts?), seems like a very reasonable compromise position for the remaining batch of borderline computer translations. ]]] 16:12, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
:*The trouble there is identifying which ones were created by computer, of course. Some editors used the content translation tool exactly as they were supposed to, translating from a language in which they were fluent, checking the machine translation and turning it into idiomatic English before uploading it. Nowadays I automatically pass any article translated by Rosiestep because I've checked enough of hers that I trust her to have done it right. Likewise Endo99 who was quite focused on biographies of female French athletes. We can't just use a bot to depopulate the list, there's too much good stuff there. A human's got to check each one.—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 18:37, 15 August 2020 (UTC)


== Lardlegwarmers block appeal ==
== Backlog at ]... ==
{{atop {{atop
| result = Essentially unanimous consensus to not unblock. ] ] 15:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
| status =
| result = Backlog is under control again. ] (]) 18:06, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
}} }}


* {{userlinks|Lardlegwarmers}}
I blocked Lardlegwarmers yesterday for one week for a violation of ] from COVID-19. This was about ], although I subsequently noticed ] as well. LLW has asked me to copy their appeal here. <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">&#91;]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 03:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
=== Statement from Lardlegwarmers ===
I have only been very active editing Misplaced Pages for about one month, even though my account is older. I was blocked for pushing a minority POV in the talk page for Covid-19 Lab Leak Theory, which I understand. For context, this issue wouldn't have even come up at ANI except that there was this very old account making borderline uncivil comments constantly, and I took them to ANI myself and it boomeranged. One thing that I learned from that experience is that Misplaced Pages's culture sort of revolves around social dynamics and politics, which can overshadow fairness and consistency in rule enforcement, and that I am probably not going to be the one to fix it.<ref>]</ref> Anyways, in my defense, I didn't learn until later that my attempt to reason things out like grownups was not allowed; my edits were in good faith and I was really just attempting to talk it out with the other editors who did not agree with me. But I understand that the norm in this space is to walk away if there isn't any uptake of my ideas or take it to dispute resolution instead of continuing to try to convince people. The current ban is for making a comment on an AE thread, not a Covid-19 article. I was on the page for a totally unrelated reason and noticed that a user I recognized from the Covid thread was being discussed. My comment was mostly about user behavior and reflecting on the underlying dispute itself, not Covid-19. Also, on my user page I quoted ] discussing his view on Misplaced Pages's approach to Covid-19 , which I'd assumed was permitted because it's my own user page and it's really a comment about the state of Misplaced Pages as a whole. The admin who blocked me, @], blanked it from my user page. If the community won't let me keep that quote on my user page, then fine, we'll leave it removed, but I wish they would have just asked me to remove it and described why instead of editing my user page. A block for this stuff seems harsh. Thanks.
{{talk reflist}}
=== Statement from Tamzin ===
Excerpting my comment on their talkpage:{{tq2|Usually we only warn someone on their first topic ban violation. However, in your case, the fact that both violations occurred within hours of the ban being imposed, and that they were belligerent rants treating Misplaced Pages as a battleground, made me judge that a short block would more clearly communicate just how far you are from what is considered acceptable conduct. Even if you didn't understand that the ban applied outside articles, you should have understood that the community found your editing about COVID disruptive, which should have been reason enough to not make those edits.}} <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">&#91;]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 03:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
=== Discussion among uninvolved editors ===
*This is clearly a topic ban violation - and it came less than a day after it was imposed. Even if assuming in good faith that they didn't know it was a topic ban violation, their unblock request shows not only that they don't understand what they did wrong, but they attempt to justify it with statements such as {{tq|Anyways, in my defense, I didn't learn until later that my attempt to reason things out like grownups was not allowed}} which is borderline a personal attack (veiled insult that others weren't being grownups); {{tq|which can overshadow fairness and consistency in rule enforcement}} which is confirming they still don't understand why they were topic banned nor why they were blocked for violating it; and quoting Larry Sanger's ] promoting comments on their userpage after their topic ban. To summarize, I have no confidence that the user understands what they did wrong, and I would go so far as to say the user attempting to skirt the edges of their topic ban and supporting another user trying to promote fringe theories on Misplaced Pages merits an indefinite community ban. TLDR: '''Oppose unblock''' and ultimately would support indefinite ban due to the flagrant violation, lack of understanding, and no belief that after the 7 days is up they will not go straight back to trying to ]. I won't be the one to propose that, however. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 03:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*I don't see how an unblock is possible when Lardlegwarmers clearly still doesn't understand what a broadly construed topic ban means. To be clear, there's no need to ask the "community" whether you can keep your topic ban violation. The only hope for you to be able to obey it is if you are able to decide yourself, especially after you've been told by an admin. While we do try to educate instead of just blocking, the "community" isn't here to help you understand the limits of your topic ban. ] (]) 04:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*:Should clarify that despite what I said above, I'd weakly oppose extending the topic <del>ban</del> <ins>block</ins> to indefinite at this time. While I'm not hopeful Lardlegwarmers is going to be able to obey it given what they've said, I think it's fine to give them rope after the <del>ban</del> <ins>block</ins> expires and apply normal escalating blocks. Since we're already here, perhaps this will somehow help them understand that yes the community requires you to apply it broadly on anything to do with COVID-19 throughout Misplaced Pages. They should consider this very short rope though and notably the next time they feel they need to ask the community whether they're violating their topic ban when they are, it might be the last time. ] (]) 20:38, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*::Sorry mixed up ban and block above twice, now fixed. ] (]) 01:45, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose unblock''' as the user looks to have no intention of following Misplaced Pages guidelines with their request. It is only a week and will give a change to think about how to change. ] (]) 04:13, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose unblock'''. It truly takes some ] to cite a Signpost piece authored by the admin who blocked you to support the proposition that you're being railroaded. '''Weak support for an indef''' because that's what Lardlegwarmers seems to be speedrunning. ] (]/]) 04:30, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose unblock'''. The topic ban was on ''the topic of COVID-19, broadly construed'', not ''the topic of COVID-19 directly in articlespace''. And the topic ban was violated, not just within less than a day, but ''within three hours'' of it being imposed. On top of that the unblock request could be a case study for ]. I won't call for an indef ], but when the block expires Lardlegwarmers should bear in mind that any further violations of the topic ban will be their last. - ] <sub>]</sub> 10:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''No unblock''' - Basically per Lardlegwarmers: they don't appear to understand why they've been blocked. An indefinite block seems very likely in this editor's future and we certainly should consider cutting out the middle-man and just skipping to it, but I'd like to give them at least some chance here to understand why they were blocked. ] (]) 10:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
* '''Oppose unblock''' - While I usually support giving editors ] to demonstrate improvement, this case warrants a longer wait. The user acknowledges pushing a minority POV and failing to disengage per ] norms, but their justification suggests a lack of understanding or acceptance of policies like ], ], and ]. Their off-topic comment in an AE thread, despite knowing the sensitivity of such spaces, and the policy-violating content on their user page, further reflect ongoing disruption. I recommend they take time to reflect and gain a better grasp of Misplaced Pages's collaborative culture before requesting an unblock again. ] • ] ⚽ 11:31, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
* '''Oppose unblock'''. I agree that absent change from this user an indefinite block is likely. For their benefit, if you're the subject of a topic ban, broadly construed, about COVID-19, you need to be editing in an entirely different topic area. Think of something that you're interested in--television shows, football, English gardens, science fiction books? Take a week and think on it. ] ] 11:42, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose unblock.''' What is there left to say? This conduct feels like appellant's purpose is use Misplaced Pages as a battleground and to soapbox their views rather than to build the encyclopedia-- to remake Misplaced Pages as they think it should be. My feeling is that a week won't be nearly enough. The railroad comment is appallingly full of not understanding that their conduct is not acceptable in a collaborative project. ] (]) 12:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*:PS: What Tamzin said in her statement above. ] (]) 12:33, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*::Whilst I don't believe user will be able to change their approach, I feel an indef would be premature for now. We should give them a chance to mend their ways. ] (]) 12:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
*An account that ] is topic banned, violates that topic ban immediately, and posts a ] unblock request that thoroughly ]. Whoever closes this should be considering indef, not an unblock. &mdash; <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 13:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*:Indeed. ] (]) 14:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose unblock''' this specific response {{tq| Misplaced Pages's culture sort of revolves around social dynamics and politics, which can overshadow fairness and consistency in rule enforcement}} is indicative of their viewpoints and why they're not ready to contribute. They continue, {{tq|my attempt to reason things out like grownups was not allowed}}. These demonstrate that they still do not get it, and rather project their self-perspective is that they are actually a victim of people who are abusing the rules against them. . I proffer that this is going to be a consistent problem until they acknowledge that they were violating policy. Zero indication that they know how to positively contribute, just perhaps a vague inference that they'll avoid getting in trouble -- because -- we'll I'm not entirely sure they've communicated what they will do differently, but rather simply say that {{tq|a block for this stuff seems harsh.}} ]&thinsp;] 15:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*:Notwithstanding the harsh situation I presented above, to be clear I '''oppose indef''' for now. A new user should have the opportunity to overcome early (while significant) setbacks, which is what TBANs are designed to encourage. I am encouraged by things like YFNS corrective behavior in a prior AN discussion, and can only be hopeful and AGF that might apply to LLW here. We need more passionate, subject matter experts, as contributors to this project, but they ''absolutely must contribute positively'' and following established PGs. ]&thinsp;] 16:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose unblock''' and support an indef. I am pretty confident in saying that this is where we will be heading after this block ends. ] (]) 15:20, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose unblock''', clear violations of the topic ban. Don't oppose indef, but I'd like to at least give him the chance to figure out exactly what we expect going forward. --] 15:52, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Support block, oppose unblock, oppose indef''' - this is a topic-banned newbie's first violation, in the heat of the moment after the restriction was imposed. Tamzin's block was the appropriate response. The unblock request is wholly inadequate, but jumping straight to indef for this sort of violation is a pretty extreme overreach. If they go back to violating their sanction after this block expires, ''then'' let's talk community ban, but they should be given the opportunity to edit constructively while respecting the restriction. ] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 16:07, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose unblock, oppose indef...however...''' I am sympathetic to their point of view and their general "right" (we don't really have rights here on WP) to post their opinion on a subject, even one as contentious as COVID-19. I think the blanking of the user page is a step too far. We shouldn't be in the business of deleting negative opinions about Misplaced Pages; while the statement was in reference to COVID-19, it doesn't mention it within the claim and is more a critique of Misplaced Pages at large and mass media than its relation to COVID. I would let the statement on their user page stand/restore it. Larry Sanger's statement is not a ], it is a reasonable ''opinion''. There were loads of statements/claims about COVID/its origin/mandates/treatment/vaccines that, despite their widespread implementations and presentation as "the science", later turned out to be misleading or untested conjecture (examples: no studies on masking effectiveness with a large population vs the coronavirus, 6 foot spacing, lying to the American public about wearing masks because health care professionals needed them more, lab leak theory, military connections to the Wuhan Institute, US funding of WI, etc). '''HOWEVER''', civil discourse ''is'' essential. That means that discussions about COVID were fraught with battlegrounds and bludgeoning. As such, we have additional restrictions for COVID discussions and other contentious topics and LLW needs to follow them. LLW did not do so and has shown a consistent flaunting of these restrictions and a weeklong block is a reasonable start. In summary, the quote isn't unreasonable to leave on their user page (give them that latitude), but a weeklong block for the other behavior should stand. ] (]) 16:15, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*:They added two comments to their userpage. Both were critical of Misplaced Pages. One was also critical of ] and other aspects of the US government's COVID response. I removed the latter. It doesn't matter whether Sanger's opinion is fringe or not; what matters is that he was talking about COVID. I would be quite the hypocrite to remove something from someone's userpage just for criticizing Misplaced Pages, as I have a fair bit of that on my own userpage. <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">&#91;]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 17:02, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*::There's some pretty big overlap there in criticism of Fauci and how it is handled on Misplaced Pages. Again, I don't feel THAT is a significant violation of COVID editing restrictions (beyond the fact that they did it despite such an editing restriction). Anyone can completely skip over it if they wish. {{ping|Tamzin}} playing devil's advocate for a moment, what if I published the same thing on my user page? Would it be ok? Would it be ok if I posted it on LLW's user page (as long as LLW was ok with it, of course)? I realize we're getting in the weeds of a "what-if..." but if so, what's the substantive difference between me putting it on a user page and LLW doing the same? ] (]) 17:19, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*:::If you posted it to your userpage, it would be fine (although not that constructive), because you are not topic-banned from COVID. If you posted it to their userpage, that would be ] for a banned editor, since I'd struggle to believe you have an independent reason to think that particular quote belongs on that particular page. {{PB}} If you really want to fight the removal from the userpage, feel free to create a subsection here, but I stand by the removal. <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">&#91;]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 17:29, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*::::I'm not fighting the removal per se. Just wondering where the boundaries are and if it's wise to have such a boundary. ] (]) 17:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*:::::The boundary is ]. <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">&#91;]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 19:17, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*:::Buffs: In the ''realm of hypothetical'' I would presume that if that quote had been on LLW user page for a long time, in a sea of content, pre-existing AN, then it ''might even still be up today.'' However, on the other hand, to post that after the TBAN was imposed is nothing other than what can be seen as ''abject defiance'' to the ban. But beyond that, it simply violates plain language of the ban, as it applies to {{tq|all pages (not only articles) broadly related to the topic}}, so I proffer that Tamzin is clearly in the right here. To your charged statement about ''if you were to post the same thing'' to your user page, prior to your statement here and presuming you were not under a TBAN, it would ''not be questioned'' one iota. However, as a response to this discussion, it could be construed (but not technically violating) the principles of ] and I would caution against it. Moreover, you reinstating it on LLW talk page would be a far closer in the proximity of violating PROXYING. ]&thinsp;] 18:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*::::The fact that the comment only came after the topic ban is key here. I'm fairly sure I've seen several cases where there's something on an editor's user page which is covered by a topic ban but which no one has said or done anything about because it was there from before the topic ban. In fact I'm fairly sure I even remember a case where someone asked specifically if they could modify or remove something on their user page which related to their talk page which was technically under the topic ban (probably gensex). I think this was allowed especially since it related to their personal life rather than some comment on something, although they were told just this once is best. There might have even been a case where an editor wanted to do some more editing or formatting of something under their topic ban and was either denied or told only this once. IIRC, there was also an editor who was happy to be able to finally change someone on their userpage covered by their topic ban once it was lifted. A topic ban is a topic ban. I'd note that if someone makes an extremely constructive edit to an article that is not covered by ] we still treat this as a topic ban violation, although it's something much more beneficial for the project than an editor being able to repost random ramblings about Misplaced Pages they want to share. ] (]) 20:31, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose unblock, oppose indef''' - The topic ban violation was clear cut. Let's hope Lardlegwarmers will read a bit about how to avoid topic ban violations, or else indef block is not too far for them. ] (]) 16:19, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose unblock, extend block indefinitely''' - Lardle should try to demonstrate good behavior on another wiki for six months before asking for a SO. Let's hope that this user should handle contentious topics carefully in the future. ] (]) 18:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose unblock''' but no reason to indef, a block has already been imposed. If the user continues to violate the TBAN, than a longer block might be warranted. ''']]''' 02:43, 17 January 2025 (UTC)


=== Comments from involved editors ===

* Going to open a new subsection here since I've made comments to ] two weeks ago. I wish I could say I was surprised that this ended in tears but that would be untrue (though I did have some hopes the comment a month ago indicating they were aware pro-fringe POV-pushing was sactionable was a signal they were intending to modify their behaviour). As bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez points out, making thinly veiled attacks is not exactly the type of thing looked favourably upon in an unblock request. Nor is making polemical statements on one's user page, whether within the scope of the ban or not, likely to convince the community of one's inclination and ability to ]. Lardlegwarmers, if you do really want to return to editing, especially if you want to appeal your topic ban in 6 months or a year, I would strongly advise reading ] and following the advice there, especially ]. Complaining about Hob's conduct won't help you here, because the block (and it's a rather short one) and ban are about you, not Hob. Given your comment that {{tq|apparently two wrongs make a right}}, I had hoped that you were already also considering your own behaviour, but I would like to make it very clear: taking the role of one of the "wrongs" to address someone else's "borderline uncivil" behaviour is ]. Whether Hob crosses the line is on them, but what you do is entirely on you. ] (] • ]) 07:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Top of the morning to you all; some help over there would be appreciated. ] (]) 08:20, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
* As I was involved in the discussion to topic ban LLW I think I count as an involved editor. With that said I would discourage an early lifting of this block, which seems appropriate considering that LLW's response to the topic ban was to immediately violate the topic ban. ] (]) 13:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*:Also, perhaps LLW wasn't aware of this, but people who aren't uninvolved administrators aren't generally supposed to put comments into the "results" section of an AE filing. ] (]) 13:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
* I was there.. Three thousand ye-- No. More like one, two days ago. I seriously believe Lard Leg Warmers is one of two situations: '''1:''' ] and unable to understand the concepts of medical science as if they were a Facebook mother invested in "essential oils" and "holistic medicine" rather than trusting medical and scientific experts; '''2:''' ] and simply f<s>**</s>king with us for no good reason and leading us around, and around, and around, and around, and around the bend because they get a rise out of it. Either way, my advice: don't get led around the bend, '''advise indef block''' for either ] or ]. <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 16:38, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
::], those kinds of personal assumptions about their character are unnecessary to this discussion. Instead of speculation on who they are elsewhere, let's just focus on their behavior on Misplaced Pages. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:45, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
*Lardlegwarmers' statement clearly shows that they have learned little from the sanction. They should demonstrate such before there is any lifting. ] (]) 18:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
{{abot}} {{abot}}


== Usage of 'Notable people' vis-a-vis 'Notable person' in section headers ==
== Removal of patroller right ==
{{atop {{atop
| result = This is not an administrative issue. ] (]/]) 20:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
| status =
| result = Bit removed. ] (]) 17:08, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
}} }}


In the course of editing numerous articles, I have come across the header featuring 'notable people' when there is only one person and have therefore modified the grammar.


I recently had another editor come behind me and revert one such edit on the grounds that things have always been done this way, regardless of the number of notables for a given locale, which makes little sense to me. Is this really policy? ] (]) 16:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

:This seems like a question for ], not ] as it doesn't involve administrator actions. AN isn't a general Help forum for questions about editing. You could even try asking at ] or the Help Desk. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Hi admins, can I ask if someone can remove my patroller right. I haven't used it in god knows how long, and probably wont use it in the near future. Thanks ]] 11:02, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
:{{ping|Nightfury}} just to be sure, you no longer want the "new page reviewer" or the "pending changes reviewer" flag? <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;" class="texhtml"> ''']'''</span> 11:33, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
::{{u|Salvio giuliano}} New page reviewer please. ]] 11:50, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Nightfury}} {{done}}. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;" class="texhtml"> ''']'''</span> 11:52, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
{{abot}} {{abot}}


== Reporting Administrator Abuse ==
== Recreation of a deleted shortcut ==
{{Atop|I'm going to do the OP a favor and close this with no action against them. Essentially, the OP's misbehavior was pointed out by Acalamari and the OP is trying to present it as Acalamri's misbehavior. If another administrator thinks sanctions against the OP are warranted, that's up to them.--] (]) 23:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)}}


] is abusing his moderator powers in order to post unconstructive comments on talk pages, specifically when we were talking about if we should delete the US 2028 election or not, he said "that Drumpf supporters want there to be no more elections so they can remain in power forever doesn't mean we adhere to their delusions by deleting articles here". This is clearly unconstructive, and treating the talk page as a forum. I didn't know he was a moderator when I was removing his comment, and now he left all of these messages on my page and is saying I'm the real vandal here. ] (]) 22:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Someone has taken it upon themselves to ] ], literally it was deleted. I suspect someone wants to bludgeon the process. I request this request be closed down as being done too soon (yes I know consensus can change, but in one week? ) and that this redirect be protected from being re-created for the time being. ]] 11:58, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
:{{not done}} per ]. Let's let the RfD run its course. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;" class="texhtml"> ''']'''</span> 12:02, 12 August 2020 (UTC)


:So there's two things here.
== User Nishidani ==
:* First, TopVat19sEver, you removed other users comments from a talk page (not allowed). A user voicing their opinion is '''not''' vandalism, not in the slightest. If you have a problem with what another user has said on the talkpage, rather than ] (which is only allowed in very specific situations), you should bring it for discussion at an appropriate noticeboard, or preferably ask them to change their own comment.
{{atop|The filer CU blocked--] (]) 18:40, 12 August 2020 (UTC)<br> I'm shocked. --<b>] ]</b> 18:54, 12 August 2020 (UTC)}}
:* Second, Acalamari, could you please refrain from calling people "Drumpf supporters" and ] on the reasons for nominating an article for deletion? While you're entitled to your opinions, that's borderline (at best) ], especially when you call them "delusional".
{{user5|Nishidani}}<br>
:If both users agree to accept what they did wrong here and move forward, I don't think any further action is necessary. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 22:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Dear administrators. I am new here. I don't know how you guys work on fighting hate, haters. On viewing the ''khazar'' page, I saw an edit by user ''Nishidani'' trying to normalize its myth used by anti-Semites (including the one inspiring others including some who have . In understanding '''why''' he would do that I saw in his last edit writing much on the Human Shields page... in his edit https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:MobileDiff/972379035 he wrote on his revision: "as part of its win the minds and hearts of goys"... - His words. This talk about ''Jews vs goys'' is clearly nazi style. Making the world as if it is Jew vs non Jew, supposedly. This gives (twisted) understanding to his edit on Khazar Page too. In asking about it he hinted an intimidation something about previous efforts which I have no idea. Thus the issue: a user that has openly showed his feelings towards ALL JEWS, plus trying to silence ( https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Khazars#Nishidani_anti_Jewish_trend ) a new user in criticising him. Thanks. Regards. Peace. ] (]) 13:48, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
::Ok, I'm newer to Misplaced Pages, I understand what you are saying, my train of thought was, "this comment looks like vandalism, vandalism on Misplaced Pages is removed, therefore remove". I didn't know that they don't do that for talk pages. Thank you my friend. ] (]) 22:59, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
: Nishdani's edit summary mentioning "goys" is worrying, but might be explained as his view of the IDF materials and not his personal point of view (even though that remains worrying, but a little less). The issue at ] is a content issue, and can IMHO be resolved fairly easily. ] (]) 14:10, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
:::Vandalism has a '''very''' specific definition on Misplaced Pages - see ] for more information on what is not vandalism. Merely calling people names and/or being uncivil, while against the rules, is '''not''' vandalism. There are proper processes for handling other rule violations (such as asking someone to edit their own comments, or asking a noticeboard for help) such as those, but they are decidedly '''not''' vandalism. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 23:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
::I thought the plural of ''goy'' {גוֹי ) was ''goyim" (גויים). --<b>] ]</b> 14:20, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
::::Ok thank you for telling me ] (]) 23:02, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
: I know the plural word...I also know the wording neo Nazis use it... which is why it just shocked me to see such a usage/user with such obvious hate would be allowed on wikipedia. I refer to his views on world vs Jews... not about idf, which I haven't addressed. Though it shows his motivation and point of view on anything related to ANY JEWS. The middle east is not the subject of this discussion. But neo Nazi trend is. By now? The issue is '''overall hatred''' not even kahzar nor middleast.] (]) 14:35, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
:Where are the ]? ] (]) 22:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
:Content dispute? Pointing out faultiness of source of reverted content? There was a prior thread. Needs looking at. --<b>] ]</b> 14:37, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
*This is a baseless complaint. Ater not editing for months, the OP refactored an AfD that was closed last November. Acalamari rightly warned them for doing that.--] (]) 22:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
:Should I revert his edit at kahzar (myth, amazingly still pushed even after ) page which he reverted again trying to rationalize it...? It is not about content dispute. But hatred and its motivation in editing vs honesty and sincerity. Plus. Isn't there any guideline on[REDACTED] against a campaigner clearly using content and (editing/removing/adding etc.) as an ''attack'' on entire race, creed, etc.?] (]) 15:11, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
*:I agree, but at the same time, I think TV19E has a right to be unhappy that Acalamari, an administrator and bureaucrat, was able to cast aspersions and call people names without it being called out at the time as far as I can see. They went about it the wrong way (removing the comment), but that doesn't mean there isn't room for discussion of that comment. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 22:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Adrienis, you forgot to notify the user. That step is not optional. I have done this for you. --] (]) 15:15, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
::I have edited the section heading above to remove the word 'hatred'. ] should be aware of our policy on ], "Never use headings to attack other users". ] (]) 15:17, 12 August 2020 (UTC) *::Nope. First, it doesn't rise to the level required of this noticeboard, and, second, it's not at all timely.--] (]) 23:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*:::To be blunt, Acalamari didn't even tell the editor when they ''initially'' reverted back in November (while the discussion was open) where they could discuss further/report if they felt the comment was not appropriate. I'm not suggesting sanctions against Acalamari at all. But to tell a new editor "someone broke the rules and since you didn't report it in the proper way at the time because nobody told you how, they're allowed to break the rules" is clear ]. I think all that's necessary is an apology from Acalamari - TV19E has already explained that they were mistaken as to it being vanadalism. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 23:03, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
:Yamla. I tried to, but his talk page is "protected". It seems.] (]) 15:30, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
*:I didn't edit for a few months because I have to do other things. I was just scrolling around I don't even remember what I was doing and I saw he put it back, I didn't know he was a mod, and it also said you can't edit archived talk pages, which he did, so I reverted his edit. ] (]) 23:03, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
:EdJohnston, I'm still learning.] (]) 15:32, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
Dear Yamla. Nashidi saw my message on kahzar talk page. Though I didn't revert his latest edit. ] (]) 15:37, 12 August 2020 (UTC) *::That's not true. You modified a closed AfD. Acalamari rightly reverted your edit of an archived discussion.--] (]) 23:06, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*:::I just said, he is the one who modified a closed AfD, which is not allowed, then I reverted it not knowing he is a moderator ] (]) 23:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*::::He didn't modify a closed AfD. His comment was readded while the discussion was still open, because you removed it in violation of ]. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 23:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*:::::Oh okay this is my mistake then I thought it was after the AfD was closed my bad ] (]) 23:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*:::::Wait hold on, I just looked at it again. He added back his comment after the result was SNOW. On the page when he re added it, it said do not edit the page. ] (]) 23:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*::::::You removed Acalamari's comment as vandalism with the edit summary "subhanAllah". You had ''no right'' to do that. Acalamari restored it, which even though the AfD was closed, they had the right to do in the circumstances.--] (]) 23:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*:::::https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/2028_United_States_presidential_election_(3rd_nomination)&oldid=1257014612 Take a look, this is his edit. When he re added his comment, on the page in red it said '''Do not edit the page''' ] (]) 23:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*::::::The comment never should've been removed in the first place. It's within the spirit of the rules to readd a comment that you improperly removed, even if the discussion had been closed in the meantime. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 23:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*{{ec}} There's no admin abuse here as no admin tools have been used. In case you missed ''"The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below"'' with the bright red ''"Please do not modify it"'' at that AfD, I'll repeat the instructions here - don't modify archived discussions.-- ]<sup>]</sup> 22:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*:I was saying Admin abuse because of the fact that he is able to keep his comment on the page when even if he is violating the rules. I'm not a moderator so I can't do anything about. Now I just learned from that guy that they don't remove comments even if its vandalism, now I know. But thats why I reported it here you know. ] (]) 23:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*:He is the one who edited the closed AfD. This was one of the reason why I reverted his edit. ] (]) 23:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
*It's very hard to work out what's happening without the presence of diffs. ] (]) 23:02, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
:*{{tq|without the presence of diffs}}. But Ponyo and I have contributed, so you're in the presence of greatness; isn't that better than diffs? :p --] (]) 23:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
:*:* ''Tiggerjay is bowing down in great humility before such greatness never before seen in this universe. '' Now.... where is the trout? ]&thinsp;] 23:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
:*:Who am I to disagree with the Jedi? ] (]) 23:52, 16 January 2025 (UTC)


*Okay, I've looked into this. And...surprise surprise, TopVat19sEver was the one who ''origially removed Aclamari's !vote while the AfD was still open'' . Yes, about a day after the AfD was closed, Aclamari reverted this removal , which ''is'' technically "editing a closed AfD" but I would say they were ] to revert a ]. And now, suddenly, today, two months later, as their first edit ''after'' having done that improper removal, TopVat19sEver goes back to the AfD and removes Aclamari's !vote ''again'' , which Aclamari - entirely rightfully - reverted , and then TopVat19sEver comes here to cry "admin abuse", when no administrative abilities were used ''at all'' in this whole mess. Could Aclamari have used more moderate language in their initial !vote? Yeah maybe, but it was no ''violation'' at all, and the only thing needed here is a ] or at least a {{tl|trout}} for TopVat19sEver. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
To ''deeofrieddorka''. Here is an example of this preferred (mistaken) usage by fascists :
{{Abot}}
From ADL: But the problem is of course the entire view of the ''non-Hews vs All Jews'' trend/campaign.] (]) 15:52, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
If I haven't mentioned it. Asides from motivation in editing and being on an attack, apparently using[REDACTED] as part of an overall goal. The issue is also about of '''promoting a HATRED ideology''' on wiki.] (]) <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added 16:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
*Strikes me as a somewhat ridiculous overreaction. Personally I always though ] simply meant "non-Jew", full stop. I'd use it like ] in the appropriate circumstances. Slow down a bit on the wild accusations? --<span style="font-family:Courier">]</span> <small>(] · ])</small> 17:27, 12 August 2020 (UTC)


== Ban appeal from Rathfelder ==
* elmidae, Please see it again for what it really is. '''Not just about "using" the word at all. But: 1. Twisted ideology of usage to portray the world as "world of ALL non-Jews vs Jews". 2. The specific use 'goys' with the S ''' at the end. Only used by fascists. Though not the ''only'' use by them.] (]) 17:51, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
::Okay this odd confluence of two newbie editors who should not be touching I/P articles threatening me here and on my talk page, now by an established editor whose edit summary indicates he did not read what I wrote (Norman Finkelstein's book demolished the hasbara theory of Hamas and human shields accusations, and that is RS - rendering all contemporary newspaper coverage void of meaning). I guess I'll have to delay cooking and waste a half an hour pulling these lunatic accusations apart. Iwas told in November last year by Safety and Trust to expect provocations this year, as a coordinated attempt to rid Misplaced Pages of people like myself for being, yeah 'anti-Israel'. So I guess I'll have to delay cooking and waste a half an hour pulling these lunatic accusations apart. ] (]) 17:59, 12 August 2020 (UTC)


* {{userlinks|Rathfelder}}
* In other words. What Nishidani stated in the original https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:MobileDiff/972379035 is that ''we all Non-Jews of the world won't get fooled...'' Middle east politics is not the issue here (which is why I haven't touched the subject) one shouldn't mask ''it''' under so called "politics". But that twisted ideology is the issue. Which explains his push for khazar myth among other things.] (]) <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added 18:12, 12 August 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->{{od}}
* ] for sockpuppetry, vote-stacking and undisclosed COI writing of a BLP attack page
Background: When I made that edit, I was mostly engaged in reading Ishay Rosen-Zvi’s 'Pauline Traditions and the Rabbis: Three Case Studies,' ] 110 (2017): 169–194. So I eliminated it with the edit summary:
* ] declined by the community
* ] not submitted for review by the community for not complying with ]


Rathfelder has submitted the following ban appeal on their talk page and asked me to copy it here:
{{tqb|I realise that what I did was wrong - more wrong than I thought it was at the time. The circumstances which led me to edit pages where I was conflicted are not likely to recur. I accept that I was wrong to create sockpuppets and I apologise. I was involved in a dispute with my employers and it was very wrong of me to use Misplaced Pages as part of that. I did that really because I was trying to defend the work I had done for the Socialist Health Association for the previous 20 years. I did a lot of edits on that page, but they were, until the last few, about the history of the organisation, mostly adding to its list of distinguished members - largely before I was involved with it, and mostly before I was born. They were not at all controversial. I was unfairly sacked and my opponents started using Misplaced Pages against me. The row got into the media. I accept that I should not have done that. I should have resisted the temptation to use Misplaced Pages in the dispute.<br>
I have spent 2 years working on Simple English and Wikimedia. I have not set up any sockpuppets or edited anything where I had conflicts. I plan to continue with Wikimedia, as there is plenty there to keep me busy, but I would like to be able, in particular, to add pictures to articles - now I have found my way round the enormous Wikimedia resource. I also sometimes come across articles in English[REDACTED] which need amendment.}} ] (] · ]) 17:02, 17 January 2025 (UTC)


*'''Conditional support''' - If there's been no socking ''during'' the ban. ] (]) 17:05, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
The allusion in the edit summary is to ], ], 2018 978-0-520-29571-1 pp.69ff., who cites evidence showing that the massive amount of foreign IDF echo-reportage about Hamas’s putative use of human shields was dismantled by post-war research, by organizations like ]. It was pure foreign-directed ] (which one of these editors, and now Shrike, wants to put back in.
*:In response to this, I ran some basic checks. There's no evidence of socking that I can see in the currently available data. ] ] 15:48, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
*::Are you permitted to say what time range the available data covers? The default is only 90 days isn't it? ] (]) 16:33, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
*:::Yes, the data available to me was for the past 90 days. ] ] 16:41, 18 January 2025 (UTC)


*'''Question''' during the January 2024 unblock request Rathfelder said they would be willing to accept a restriction on editing articles related to BLPs or healthcare orgs. Are they still willing to accept those edit restrictions if they are un-banned? Furthermore, in January 2024 there was, at the time, no evidence of any further socking. Can we confirm that good behaviour has continued? ] (]) 17:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
Goy?
*'''Support''' They have been a very productive contributor at the Simple English Misplaced Pages, and it has definitely been long enough for the ]. ] (]) 21:33, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
*:To opposers: Would a TBAN from BLPs solve the issues you mention? I understand why some may be hesitant to unban, but they have been a very productive contributor on other wikis. I think that they would be a productive contributor if we simply give them a second chance. ] (]) 16:49, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' as disingenuous. {{blue|The circumstances which led me to edit pages where I was conflicted are not likely to recur}}: obviously it's reassuring to hear this, but there is no acceptance of personal responsibility. "The circumstances made me do it" is not a defence, or explanation. Likewise, {{blue|I was involved in a dispute with my employers and it was very wrong of me to use Misplaced Pages as part of that}} does not do the facts justice. Rathfelder literally socked ''in order'' to be able to call a real life opponent a "]", <s>in wikivoice</s> with a misattributed ] quote. Difficult to imagine an editor of >half a million edits not knowing attribution requirements for BLPs. In fact, on investigation, they obviously do, as the ] {{tl|BLP sources}} template indicates. If there's a Holy Trinity of wrong doing of things that damage the project the most, it's socking,vote stacking and deliberate BlP violations. These things are most dangerous to the project: they erode the trust between editors and the integrity of the consensus-driven decision making process and put WP at risk of at least public embarrassment if not a lawsuit. All of which Rathfelder did. All of which this appeal seems to attempt to explain away by "circumstances". I'm the first to offer rope when deserved, but such a glossing ban appeal, combined with it all happening only a couple of years ago, sets off more alarm bells than the Great Fire of London. There's no need for groveling, just an indication of self-knowledge and actual change. ] ] 12:01, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
*:I haven't yet looked into this enough to express an opinion, but I would point out that the "swivel-eyed middle-aged conspiracy theorist" quote was attributed in text to ''The Times'', so was not in wikivoice. ] (]) 13:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
*::Thanks for drawing my attention; I've clarified my comment. ] ] 16:00, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' insufficient contrition and reflection on their frankly very serious misconduct. As Serial has said, they created an a attack page with very serious BLP vios using sockpuppets, you can't just handwave that away. ] (]) 12:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - My opinion is that editing pages to attack one's real life opponents isn't something you can just come back from, especially when you abusively socked and votestacked in addition. Please stick to editing other Wikis. - ] ] 15:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Support''' I don't often choose to comment on unblock requests but every day I come across past productive work done by Rathfelder when I'm working with categories which is how I'm familiar with their immense contributions to this project. They are responsible for a sizeable percentage of our category creation and have over a half million edits credited to this account. If it has been over a year since their last appeal (check), they haven't been socking (check), they have been productive on other Wikimedia projects (check) and they acknowledge their mistakes (check), then I believe they should be given another chance. It sounds like this was a specific incident in their life that happened several years ago that is unlikely to be repeated. Remember, indefinite is not infinite. And if you reject this appeal, I'm just wondering what exactly are you expecting to see in a future request that would lead you to accept it? Or is this indefinite block actually a forever block? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 18:27, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. Serial Number 54129 points to the quote from the piece by Sarah Baxter as the most damning part of his evidence, but Baxter was deputy editor of ''The Times'' when she wrote the article, so it was reasonable to say that that newspaper said that. It may, of course, not be the best way to word things but we don't ban people for that. ] (]) 18:49, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
*:No, I point to far more tahn just that: I point to a refusal to adhere to neutrality in preference for an entire section reading like a hit piece; there were no redeeming features presented, or alternative interpretations suggested. Instead, a Jewish guy was literally called an antisemite, on Misplaced Pages, for Rathfelder's own ends. The quote from Baxter was merely an example, but the whole section was of that ilk. Correct, we don't ban people for poor expression. We ''do'' ban people for deliberately flaunting fundamental policy and attacking living people. It is also insufficient that they have done good work in the past, per {{u|Liz}}; it's not mitigating. Ironically their is a current arbcom case in which some of the most knowledgeable editors in the field are getting topic banned due to behavioral issues. The same principal applies here. ] ] 20:34, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - The attack page, undisclosed COI, and sockpuppetry were serious offenses. Sometimes it takes a long time to regain trust. ] (]) 20:49, 18 January 2025 (UTC)


*'''Support'''; willing to allow this editor another chance, hoping they'll understand that the community's tolerance is pretty much gone for any future problems. Rathfelder, if this is successful, when you're finding {{xt|articles in English[REDACTED] which need amendment}}, I'd advise making it your default setting to open a talk section ''before'' making edits if there's any possibility the edit could be objectionable to anyone. ] (]) 15:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Why did I write goy there? Because I paused from reading the article by Ishay Rosen-Zvi to glance at[REDACTED] and saw a ridiculous edit on Hamas and human shields.
*'''Support'''. The arguments to maintain the ban seem to be mostly "He did some really bad stuff". I agree that he did. Personal attacks are bad. Socking is bad. Using[REDACTED] to prosecute real-life battles is bad. But I'm concerned about statements such as {{u|Hemiauchenia}}'s "insufficient contrition and reflection" (although they are certainly entitled to express that opinion). We're not looking for self-flagilation here, nor are we looking for great works of literature as apologies. Our criteria for re-entry into the community isn't "Has never done anything really bad". It's "Understands what they did that was bad and has given credible assurances that it won't happen again", and I think we have those. {{u|Robert McClenon}} says "Sometimes it takes a long time to regain trust". Which is true, but this has been a bit over two years. That's a long time in my book. And it's not like they've gone away for two years and come back out of the blue; they've been contributing productively on other projects, so we have tangible evidence that they're capable of producing good work. ] ] 16:35, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
*:People implicitly understand that Jytdog will probably never be unbanned from Misplaced Pages because his act of phoning up a fellow user he was in conflict with was a severe and inexcusable breach of decorum. I think that Rathfelder's breach was on par with that of Jytdogs. People using their position on Misplaced Pages to write attack pages of living people is a huge violation of Misplaced Pages's standards. It's not just some minor misconduct like youthful vandalism or minor socking where someone can just brush it off as "whoopsie, my bad" and be relatively easily unblocked. Stuff like this brings the whole encyclopedia into disrepute. ] (]) 16:45, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
* '''Support''' I find RoySmith's articulation much more convincing. We don't need to have a concept of unforgivable sins here. And this applies to everyone. ] ] 18:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Support''' ] (]) 20:28, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per Liz and Roysmith. While Rathfelder's misconduct was quite severe, it was an anomaly in a long, active, and productive editing career here; and his activity at Simple as continued that pattern. Unlike Serial, I do see understanding and regret, which they are *amplifying* rather than *replacing* with the assurance that the circumstances under which the misconduct arose are unlikely to repeat. So - worth another go, I think. No opinion whether a TBAN of some sort should be imposed; if I were Rathfelder, I would stay away from BLPs for some time anyway. ] (]) 23:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)


== Appealing April 4 2024, indefinite WP:CUP ban and indefinite 1-nomination GAN limit ==
Ishay Rosen-Zvi, together with Adi Ophir, wrote a few years back a very important book, Oxford University Press, 2018 978-0-191-06234-6. Since reading books is something rarely done these days, I guess the best summary will have to be from a Haaretz review:
{{atopr
| result = Consensus to lift this ban will not develop. ] (]/]) 22:02, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
}}


At ], I was instructed by closer ] that I could appeal these in a year and it has been 9.5 months. I am appealing because the CUP entry deadline is traditionally January 31. See ] through ]. This year the ] verbiage says "The competition will begin on 1 January 2025 and signups will continue throughout the year". I am just noticing the new language as I am putting this appeal in. Nonetheless, I am requesting time off for good behavior on the ban.-] <small>(] / ] / ] / ] / ])</small> 18:52, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
<blockquote>] (immigrants under the Law of Return), '''participate in the struggle against non-Jews''' according to halakha and to nationality (Muslim Arabs), '''they are accepted into the community of the Israeli nation, and hence are considered Jews for the purposes of friendship, communal life and marriage.''' Indeed, when the fact that halakha prohibits their burial next to people who are considered Jews by the Rabbinate is (re)discovered by the media, public outrage ensues. '''Partnership in the Israeli national project is enough to turn them into non-goyim.'''] Tomer Persico,'How the Jews Invented the Goy,' ] 9 November 2019.</blockquote>


:'''Oppose''' The utter cluelessness of this appeal is more than enough reason not to do this. I was going to write more but decided that coaching you on how to be less clueless is not in the project's best interest. You've been here long enough that you should be able to see for yourself how terrible this appeal is. ] ] 19:02, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
I grew up reading all major writers I could lay my hands on, which meant also the likes of Philip Roth and Isaac Bashevis Singer, where, following standard usage in Yiddish, it is a normal infra-Ashkenazi term for non-Jews. Any student of Israeli politics will immediately recall the verbal bunfights between a self-confident Ben-Gurion, whose line was to ignore what goyim thought, and the Foreign Minister of the day ], with his ‘deeply rooted Jewish distrust of goyim’, always getting the MFA to fuss over how Israel’s case was to be presented to foreigners.Denying that the term is extremely widespread in Jewish and Israeli-Hebrew usage is disingenuous, or smacks of unfamiliarity.
:'''Oppose''' and recommend we disallow any further appeals for another year. I'm concerned otherwise we'll just be back here in April. --] (]) 19:14, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

:'''Oppose for now''' It's pretty clear that most people in that discussion were supporting an indef ban from the Cup, not an 8-month ban. This appeal doesn't address people's concerns with Tony's editing relating to the Cup, so should be denied. --] 19:16, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
Singer in an interview once made a thought experiment imagining
: '''Oppose''' The original discussion wasn't linked, it can be found ]. At that place it is very clear that {{tq|here is almost unanimous support for an indefinite ban on participation in the WikiCup}}, so, no, this appeal should not be passed. It is, honestly, astonishing that TonyTheTiger has been here very nearly two decades but hasn't taken on board the way the community works ~ ''']'''<sup>''']''']</sup> 19:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
<blockquote> what it would be like “ if we would have , now , here , a goy who would write in Yiddish ... we would say , “ What are you doing writing in Yiddish , why don ' t you go back to the goyim , we don ' t need you.’ Paul Kresh,'' Isaac Bashevis Singer, the Magician of West 86th Street: A Biography,'' Dial Press, 1979 p.349</blockquote>
:'''Oppose''' for no rational that they understand why they were banned or what even led to their ban, and rather simply a sentiment of "I really want to participate". Please understand that '''your ban was indefinite''', so the one year appeal opportunity is your potential opportunity "time off for good behavior". ]&thinsp;] 19:24, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

:'''Oppose'''. Appealing early on the basis that you won't be able to sign up to do the thing you were banned from doing is certainly a unique take. &spades;]&spades; ] 21:03, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
My formal studies once showed how an immense amount of conversation in countries whose languages are not thought to be easy for outsiders (Japan/China) use terms which, in translation or officialize, are systematically elided, erased. The same thing is going on in this disgruntlement at the use of ‘goy(im)’: it is put over that only antisemitic Nazis use it, when it is a term thoroughly domesticated in Jewish usage (and I can see no harm in that). Every day every orthodox Jew will thank god for not being a goy (''she-lo asani goy''). That is none of my business, and is perfectly legitimated by tradition. The harm arises in pretending that is not the case.] (]) 18:24, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
{{abot}} {{abot}}


==Requesting info==
== ] ==
has been hijacked and rewritten. Can someone handle that please (split or discard)? Cheers, --] (]) 17:43, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
:{{done}} - restored old version - will start new draft and invite {{user|Kdb0152}} to edit there. ] ] 18:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
:Btw {{u|Achim55}}, in future you can go to the page history and use a tool like ] or ] to quickly restore it and warn the offending party. ] ] 18:05, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

WTF is going on here? Kdb0152 is a ] and likely connected to the the questionably-notable actor. The user subsequently moved the article to ] (I moved it back because Kedrick Brown appears to be the common name). The content that Kdb0152 is adding includes: "Houston made and Littlerock raised, actor Kedrick Brown is making major waves in Hollywood. This talented actor is catching the attention of major network execs, directors and producers throughout the film and television world. Brown began acting at the age of twelve. He graduated from Midland Robert E. Lee High School as an UIL All Star Cast Member and decided to further his acting training after being convinced by his Theatre Arts teacher. Brown then went on to earn his Bachelor of Arts in theater from the University of North Texas and trained in the University of Houston’s M.F.A. program with a focus in acting". That is... differently neutral. ''']''' <small>(] - ])</small> 10:24, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

== I think a user is following me ==
{{atop {{atop
| result = {{u|Steve Quinn}} is {{itrout|trouted}} for bringing this to AN. ] (]/]) 21:58, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
| status = Withdrawn
| result = {{user|ImTheIP}} withdrew. ] ] 23:39, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
}} }}
Hello. I have come across several image files and the U.S. Gov. PD licensing seems to be incorrect. Four of these images and possibly another one could be copyright violations - if I can figure out how to find this type of information on their websites. However, since I am unable to find that information at this moment, I am wondering which group of Misplaced Pages editors work on this sort of thing so that maybe I can get some help with this. I will post the files here for information purposes. Also, there may be more copyright violations by this particular editor who seems to have a propensity for downloading image files. Below are the files:
# ]
# ]
# ]
# ]
# ]
Further comment: The above TN file - File:AppalachianTN.jpg - is covered by the TN.GOV "linking policy" and can be found . So this Misplaced Pages image file is still not licensed appropriately, although I have no idea what the correct Misplaced Pages licensing would be.


I will notify the editor who downloaded these files that I have opened a discussion here. Well, now that I have taken it this far, the editor in question is: {{userlinks|Brian.S.W}}. However, the above image files might be too stale to be considered for any action. I leave that up to the Admins. If you look on their talk page, they have previously been blocked for copyright violations. ---] (]) 20:59, 17 January 2025 (UTC)


:As you can see they've already been tagged for a deletion discussion yesterday, so there is no need to have a difference notice board also working on it. ]&thinsp;] 21:21, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
{{abot}}


== Please Help Me! ==
There is a user that has an uncanny ability to show up on almost any page I edit, even on pages I create. This is user frequently reverts my edits, often leaving little explanations which frustrates me. I don't know how the wiki rules work exactly and I don't want to accuse anyone for no reason. So can some administrator have a look at this and tell me if I'm "just seeing things" and/or if this is part of normal editing? Can I pm someone the name of the user? ] (]) 06:50, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
:{{nacmt}} {{u|ImTheIP}}, this is known as ] - you can email me the name of the user and I can take a look if you wish and I'll update this thread accordingly - ] ] ] 09:51, 13 August 2020 (UTC)


Hi there, I'm Arav200 and I'm not a new at english Misplaced Pages, Previously I'm editing from ] but due to my old account (Bhairava7) and it's attached gmail are protected from ], so, I'm unable to access my account,Please help me and If administrator transfer userright from my old account to Arav200 then It 'll be helpful for me otherwise after my old account permission will be removed due to after Inactive and I create this account through ] due to Skipcptcha restrictions.Happy editing ] (]) 12:14, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
::'''Context:'''The accused party is {{vandal|Aroma Stylish}} - both {{user|ImTheIP}} and {{user|Aroma Stylish}} predominantly edit in the Israel Palestine space, which is controversial and is covered by ], violations of which Aroma Stylish has been blocked for in the past . Aroma Stylish has been subject to one AN/3 thread .
:{{confirmed}} to {{np|Bhairava7}}. --] (]) 12:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
::'''Editor interactions:'''
:Hmmm. I was a bit surprised about the English, but it is similar to previous edits from the old account ( ). I have noted the connection on the two accounts' user pages, but I'd like to try requesting 2FA removal before giving up and transferring the permissions. ] (]) 16:49, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
::* Prior to 10th July, these users never interacted. The first major edit correlation I can see occured on 17th July on ]. There were then further interactions on ]. They had a direct and civil discussion at ]. Entering August, their interactions become suspiciously close together, with oftentimes there being less than 15 mins between edits when prior to this there were hours between them. However, at this time there is not enough evidence for me to say Wikihounding took place, but the closeness of their revisions certainly raises concern. I invite both parties to discuss. ] ] 13:28, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
::{{u|Bhairava7}} / {{u|Aarav200}}, please contact ca{{@}}wikimedia.org from the e-mail address you have used for the Bhairava7 account. Please describe the problem and request the removal of two-factor authentication from your account. See ] for details. ] (]) 16:56, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
I'm not "following him". As I explained him before, I have over 5,000 articles in my watchlist, most of them related to Jewish and Israeli topics. He is a heavy ARBPIA editor and it's not surprising that ocasionally his edits are challenged by myself and others. However, I usually don't have a problem with his editing, which tends to focus on making texts more concise and tidy. I have an issue when he deletes information without warning in the talk page or edit summary.--] (]) 15:21, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
:I didn't able to access my also gmail (who attached from old account) due to 2:FA protection,then I was created new account with new gmail for re-contribution on Misplaced Pages. :(Happy editing ] (]) 17:39, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
::Please try the following steps to regain access to your Gmail account: https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/7299973 ] (]) 18:52, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
::I don't know if it is much useful but I can verify that he is indeed Bhairava7 as I contacted him over at discord personally. ] (]) 18:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
:I was emailed about this. Given Yamla's CheckUser result, I don't think that there is any reasonable doubt that it is the same person operating both accounts. While they may be able to recover the account from T&S, I feel like it is a bit unnecessary to force them to go through that route as it is ultimately their choice whether they want to recover the account or create another one (even if I personally have a bias for recovering). I was going to transfer the permissions over, but saw this thread, so didn't follow through with it. ] (]) 19:03, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
{{re|ToBeFree|Sdrqaz}},I also tried as per the link given by ToBeFree but I am not able to recover or access my Gmail... It would be better if I give up the desire to contribute to Misplaced Pages... I am also trying my best... If both are recovered then it will be good... Please forgive me but I will take full care that such mistake does not happen again in future... If possible, please transfer the rights of my old mentioned account to my new account because I've feel more stress at this time.Happy editing ] (]) 20:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)


:I will transfer them over, given that it has been unsuccessful. I also think that this route is kinder. If T&S disables 2FA on your old account and you would like to go back to using it, please let me know. ] (]) 02:52, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Diffs, please. ] (]) 17:38, 13 August 2020 (UTC)


== BAG nomination ==
* I'd recommend a no fault, two way IBAN as a first step, probably as a discretionary sanction under ARBPIA. We should AGF on both sides---ImTheIP finds the behavior inappropriate and Aroma Stylish doesn't intend their edits to be distressing---but regardless of that, whatever is going on needs to stop before it continues to escalate. The solution it seems is for them to take a break from each other, and a time-limited IBAN seems like it would accomplish that effectively. <span style="white-space: nowrap;">— ]]​</span> 19:48, 13 August 2020 (UTC)


Hi! I have nominated myself for ] membership. Your comments would be appreciated on the ]. Thanks! – ] <small>(])</small> 14:03, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Thank you Ed6767 for investigating. My intent was not to cause grief to a fellow newbie wiki user. As there is no evidence of bad behavior I withdraw my compalint.] (]) 22:45, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
{{abot}}
*Follow-up: Aroma Stylish blocked as a sock of יניב הורון. ] (]) 04:26, 18 August 2020 (UTC)


== I need help from an admin - Urgent ==
== TheDonald.win ==
{{atop|1=I'm not sure about oranges from Jaffa, but there's a pack of blocks from Misplaced Pages here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 17:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)}}
Dear Misplaced Pages Team,


I need an urgent help concerning a page and information about my project, I'd appreciate if a[REDACTED] admin can contact me to help.
* {{la|TheDonald.win}}
I just increased protection for this from sprot to full protection for the duration of the ongoing AfD due to revert warring by ]s apparently driven by the forum itself. I'm mentioning it here for two reasons: first, the meatfest at ], and second, I removed some unsourced material yesterday - I have no edits prior to reviewing it yesterday following a noticeboard thread but if anyone thinks that my protection should be undone or changed per ], please feel free. Maybe ECP or PC would be better? I don't know. ''']''' <small>(] - ])</small> 13:12, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
:{{nacmt}} {{u|JzG}}, ECP would be better here IMO. A quick MAT scan shows a majority of disruptive editors on this article are not extended confirmed. An indef semi may be warranted (alike to r/The_Donald) given the nature of the article. ] ] 13:36, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
::For reference, here are some threads I've found re this article: . It looks like the article was actually created by article community members, however, I cannot comment on who per ]. ] ] 13:45, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
::{{u|Ed6767}}, makes sense, done. ''']''' <small>(] - ])</small> 13:54, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
:::FWIW, I closed the AfD, since it was about 12 hours past the normal run time. ]&nbsp;]] 15:48, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
::::Very good close. I had looked at it, although I wasn't looking to close it myself, and came to the exact same conclusion you did. ] - ] 16:11, 13 August 2020 (UTC)


Many thanks,
== Please block for longer ==
Mohammed ] (]) 17:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
{{atop
:There's not enough information here for anyone to do anything. Please tell us what the problem is and what help you need. You probably want to read ] prior to doing anything further, though, just in case you've been violating our guidelines around conflicts of interest. --] (]) 17:14, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
| status =
:What's the issue? ] (]/]) 17:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
| result = Well, that was a rather unpleasant editor. I've revdel'd a lot more of their nonsense going back a few months, block applied by El_C, and emergency has been contacted. Think we're done here. ] (]) 16:13, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
::] probably needs blocking. ] (]) 17:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
}}
:::{{Done}} ] (]/]) 17:22, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

:Relevant article:

:*{{al|An Orange from Jaffa}}

:OP possibly using multiple accounts:
This is disturbing, please remove talkpage access and block for way longer. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:85.103.40.125&oldid=972725253 --]] 14:36, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
:*{{checkUser|Mohamugha1}}
:{{u|BlueCrabRedCrab}}, ]. Read the page notice. ] ] 14:37, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
:*{{checkUser|MohammedAlmughanni}}
::I've rev-del'd the offending edits, and contacted the Emergency email, as per ]. If something like this comes up again, as it says in the warning box above when you post, reach out to an admin privately, or email the Oversight team. ] (]) 14:52, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
:::Block extended. All edits revdeleted. ] 17:25, 13 August 2020 (UTC) :] (]) 17:23, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
::{{noping|MohammedAlmughanni}} blocked as a sock. ] (]/]) 17:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
:El_C already knows this, but when someone is using an IP address for only a few hours (at most), making a block really really long is not going to make any difference to anything. Hence, I have blocked:
:*{{iprange|85.103.0.0/18}} and
:*{{iprange|85.108.128.0/18}}
:for 2 weeks. I don't have time right now to follow this up properly, but I would recommend a trawl through these contribs, and perhaps check for others. -- ] <sup>]</sup> 18:30, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
::I feel it's best to err on the side of severity when it comes to attacks of such a serious nature. (Also, I blocked an IP range yesterday for 3 years, so to call 3 months "really really long," well, that's a relative premise.) ] 01:01, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
:Thank you all, esp. you, {{U|zzuuzz}}--I saw earlier today there was an edit on that article and was struck by the title, but was busy doing something else; now I wish I had followed up immediately. ] (]) 01:08, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
{{abot}} {{abot}}


== Khabib Nurmagomedov French page modified by 92.184.106.82 to edit origin as Algerian ==
== Article about ] in "The Atlantic" ==
{{atop|1= is thataway. → - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC)}}
{{atop|An important reminder that Misplaced Pages exists in the real world, and that our actions here have global impact. Otherwise, this is becoming a content discussion, which should happen at the page itself. ] <sup>]</sup>] 03:54, 14 August 2020 (UTC)}}
Modifications history shows the following IP 92.184.106.82 made numerous edits to Khabib Nurmagomedov's French[REDACTED] page to include false information around his nationality, background and place of birth among other edits.This IP needs to be blocked and banned from editing. ] (]) 18:14, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
Just a head's up that there will probably be even more interest in her page, since came out today. -- ]</b></sup></small></span>]] 20:37, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
:Her father's Jamaican & her mother's Indian, so how is she an African-American. Something for greater minds to ponder. ] (]) 00:07, 14 August 2020 (UTC) :You need to contact the French Misplaced Pages. This is en.wikipedia.org and we only have say over what happens here on the English WIkipedia. --] (]) 18:14, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
::], one of those greater minds would be Sen. Harris's mother, then. I am sorry if all this is too complex. From what I understand there's those who claim she's not African-American because she's not descended of enslaved people. By analogy, that would suggest you're only White American if your ancestors were on the Mayflower? It's a ridiculous claim. Someone who has African ancestry and is born and raised in America, such a person can legitimately be called...yes, African American, which is apparently what she calls herself, and which certainly is what reliable sources call her. So, GoodDay, you can either accept that, or you can be like one of these people screaming on Facebook that VIRUSES ARE SO SMALL THEY CAN'T BE CAUGHT BY A FACEMASK, as if they are experts. BTW Donald Harris has US citizenship, it seems, which makes me wonder how your "Her father's Jamaican" is to be taken. See? ] (]) 01:04, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
:::Well, THAT'S going to leave a mark. --] &#124; ] 01:11, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
:::<small>But, did they pronounce her name correctly?</small> I guess I'm not a greater mind as I don't even understand this human constructed concept of "race". We are all mutts. But, if we are going to divvy up people by "breed", yeah, she's African-American. And pure breeds tend to have more mental/physical ailments. This is going to be one ugly election. ] (]) 01:20, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
::], I'd really appreciate it if you didn't do the "breed" thing in a context where chattel slavery was a thing. I'm sure you actually do understand the concept of "race", and yes it really matters. ] (]) 21:14, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
:::], apologies. Whole thing really pisses me off. It's 2020 and racism is becoming more of a problem instead of less. But, I did have a sense this morning that I went too far. ] (]) 21:21, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
:Well, if reading that article taught me anything, it's that we all need to proofread our comments better. The number of ''''s is just embarrassing. ]]] 01:59, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
::Although the notification about the ''Atlantic'' article is OK, this noticeboard is not a place to debate article content (use the article talk page) or to debate current events (try social media). ] ] 02:32, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
:My name wasn't mentioned in the article, so how exciting can it be? ... ] (]) 21:14, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
{{abot}} {{abot}}
== EncycloDeterminate unblocked ==


The Arbitration Committee has resolved that:
== ] ==
{{ivmbox|1=Following an appeal, the Arbitration Committee repeals the Oversight block of {{Userlinks|EncycloDeterminate}}, as it is no longer necessary.}}
For the Arbitration Committee, ] (] • she/her) 22:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
: Discuss this at: '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard|EncycloDeterminate unblocked}}'''<!-- ] (]) 22:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC) --><!--Template:hes-->


== Permission request ==
Riots / violence that took place recently in the city of ]. This article is getting the same level of attention and vandalism as ], considering how ] {{rspe|OpIndia}} has written about it today. Tons of off-wiki canvassing already happening, regarding both pages. ] (]) 17:36, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
{{hat|1=]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}}
:{{u|Woody}} has bumped the article to ECP, that should help. ] (]) 18:08, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
{{atop|1=No. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}}
I am User:CFA's legitimate alt account for ] editing at high volume. Please add extended confirmed to my account. Thank you ] (]) 04:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC)


:Looks like we’ve got another @] impersonator here. ''If by some unlikely chance you are actually CFA, then you can make a request while logged in as CFA. Otherwise you will be blocked as before… nice try…'' ]&thinsp;] 04:47, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
== Need a close ==
::@] here is another CFA imposter for you. Cheers! ]&thinsp;] 05:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

:::I indeffed {{User|CFA (AWB)}}. ] (]) 05:11, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
We need an uninvolved and fairly patient admin to read through ] and close it. There are some options: let it go with a self-imposed ban on "Religion" topics, let it go altogether!, or impose a community-supported topic ban in an area to be determined (there are some options). Thank you, ] (]) 21:12, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
::::I can't believe they are so dumb they tried doing the same scam two nights in a row. The previous attempt was removed from this noticeboard but it had a link listing about 20 CFA-related imposter accounts. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
:{{done}} <span style="white-space: nowrap;">— ]]​</span> 22:22, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
{{abot}}
::], thank you so much. ] (]) 00:00, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
{{hab}}


== Proposed community ban of Marginataen ==
== my account has not been automatically ==
{{atop|status=Community ban imposed|1=This clearly fall sunder the {{tqq|except in cases where there is limited opposition and the outcome is obvious after 24 hours}} condition of ]. Accordingly, Marginataen is, by the consensus of the Misplaced Pages community, banned from en.wiki. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC)}}
{{atop|The full four days is now up, and all is well. Welcome, ], to the exalted ranks of autoconfirmed users. ] (]) 08:20, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
{{userlinks|Marginataen}}
<br/>...aaand then to the ranks of cu-blocked socks Rgrds. --] (]) 18:24, 15 August 2020 (UTC)}}
This user has been indefblocked twice for various issues over the years (and is subject to a ]), and two days after their last unblock, they were ], as ]. Well they've gone back to ]; their are a good sampler. Despite being ] that English variety/date formats are set per article, not per topic, they have ] for their mass-editing; I was going to send them my own warning about this but the discovery of this message tipped me over into submitting a ban request.
Sorry, even though 4 days have passed since my account was created and I had more than 10 edits, but my account has not been automatically verified yet. Please do it for me.--] (]) 05:31, 15 August 2020 (UTC)


They clearly have extreme ] problems with their editing pattern; also the idea of a non-native speaker of English trying to police/standardise the use of English variety templates on Misplaced Pages does not sit well with me. I have undone many of their most recent edits, some of which ] Manual of Style violations of ]. Furthermore, in the light of ] (that wasn't actionable) about their interest in right-wing topics, perhaps their ] of the spin-off article ] might need to be looked into. In short, I'm not sure what benefit is being gained by this user's continued presence on this project. ] (]) 06:14, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
:], four full days (96 hours) have not passed yet. They will very soon. When you posted the above, less than 95 hours had passed since your account was created. ] (]) 06:18, 15 August 2020 (UTC)


:{{midsize|(Will abstain as I hope no one will require sanctions and I am pretty clearly involved again despite hoping I wouldn't have to be, but just wanted to make clear on my own edits that if I made any errors on the sweep-up, please let me know and I'll fix them. Thanks.)}} <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 06:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
:(EC) {{replyto|Billards Player}}} {{tqi|Created on 11 August 2020 at 06:33)}} current time is 06:21 as per my signature and you posted at 05:31 as per your signature. So no it has not been 4 days. When we say four days when mean 4 days, not 3 days 22 hours. ] (]) 06:21, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
:'''Support'''. Doing the exact thing that get that them blocked after being unblocked. I’ll also add that they unilaterally changed articles into British spellings with no explanation or discussion given either. ] 06:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
::{{replyto|Nil Einne}}} So why did I have 4 full days in my account?--] (]) 06:22, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
::20 more edits after the AN notice. ] 18:28, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
:::{{replyto|Biliards Player}} you don't. You would only have 4 days at 06:33 and the current time is 06:25. ] (]) 06:25, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
:::@]: You have '''not yet had''' four full days in your account. That will happen in about 10 minutes. ] (]) 06:27, 15 August 2020 (UTC) :'''Support''' pretty clear repeat violations of previous block reasons. Doing enough of this to be disruptive and unproductive, not listening to feedback or starting appropriate discussions. ] (]) 09:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
::::@]: Thank you very much for your help.--] (]) 06:30, 15 August 2020 (UTC) :'''Support'''. Might considering a RFC on Meta to globally ban Marginataen in the future. ] (]) 10:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
:'''Support'''. Repeatedly making disruptive edits even after having been blocked several times and promising to mend their ways. ] (]) 12:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
::::For the future (more for SL/NE), there are some places where time passage is rounded (e.g. on mobile for time since last edit). I expect that is the case hereand it really was displaying as 4 days for this user. --] (]) 06:34, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
:'''Support'''. Per proposal. --] (]) 15:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
:'''Support'''. Don't waste the community's time. &spades;]&spades; ] 16:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
:'''Comment:''' It might be a good idea to block the known sockpuppets of Marginataen that are not already blocked: {{u|Tamborg}}, {{u|Bubfernr}}, and {{u|LatteDK}}. There may be others that I have missed. ] (]) 16:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
:'''Support.''' <s>I'm not sure how to deal with this. I guess Marginataen is honestly trying to contribute and collaborate, but...</s> Case in point regarding "I didn't hear that": Remsense recently ] Marginataen to stop mass-tagging articles. Three hours later, Marginataen ]: ''"Yes, I'll stop mass adding templates"''. And yet another hour later, Marginataen added these templates to ] ] articles. It seems that Marginataen didn't understand what Remsense said. P.S.: ...and Marginataen keeps ]. Hopeless. Block. — ] (]) 18:59, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
::As a purely stopgap measure, I've blocked Marginataen from mainspace for a week to encourage them to respond here. Any admin should feel free to unblock without asking me, if the block becomes no longer necessary. <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">&#91;]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 20:11, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
:'''Support''' - Gotta play by the rules. ] (]) 20:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
:'''Support'''. The continuous disruption far outweighs the minimal content contribution. ] (]) 21:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Support''' a ban - I don't think that the user is being consciously disruptive. I think that this is largely a ] problem and that the user doesn't understand what they are being told. We only have so much patience for users who can't understand what they are told to do. ] (]) 04:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Support''' a ban. No reason to suspect the behavior will stop as a result of a lesser measure. ] (]) 22:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
{{abot}} {{abot}}


== Block review request == == User:TWC DC1 ==
{{atop
{{archivetop|1=The block has been shortened; Govvy has been told what he needs to do to be unblocked, so the ball is in his court now; no further action is likely to come of this discussion. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;" class="texhtml"> ''']'''</span> 11:07, 16 August 2020 (UTC)}}
| result = Warned, then sockblocked. <small>(])</small> ]<sub>]<sub>]</sub></sub> (]/]) 21:34, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
{{userlinks|Govvy}}
}}


I recommend issuing a warning to ], as their actions appear to be ]. Despite previous warnings, they have continued this behavior. --] (]) 21:29, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
I'm requesting a review of {{u|331dot}}'s block of Govvy. The block is based on the rev-delled edit summary that accompanied . While I confess that I have not seen the edit summary, it was at least partially described . I would appreciate it if some uninvolved admins would review the editsum and then, in light of the following context, give their input as to whether a two-week block was appropriate for an editor who had not been blocked for more than 24 hours since 2007.
{{abot}}


== G7 request by a blocked account ==
Here is the context: {{u|SchroCat}} arbitrarily removed an infobox from ] without citing any policy to justify the removal and he subsequently edit-warred to enforce his removal without ever taking the dispute to the article's talk page , . Another editor, {{u|Back ache}}, at ], where a lively discussion has ensued. In the course of that discussion, there was some unpleasantness between Govvy, SchroCat, and {{u|Cassianto}}, including a moment where Govvy regrettably called SchroCat a 'weird one'. Eventually, Govvy opened an ANI thread that was closed after going nowhere . After the thread was closed, Govvy commented beneath the discussion to express his dismay , leading to a brief edit war with SchroCat . While editors are not supposed to post to closed discussions, it happens freqeuntly and there is no consistent enforcement of the rules in this regard. In this instance, admin 331dot showed up at Govvy's talk page to warn him against posting to a closed discussion . A little bit later, SchroCat also showed up to lecture Govvy and accuse him of being petulant . This was completely unnecessary as 331dot had already warned Govvy about posting to a closed discussion, and one could reasonably construe SchroCat's post as a form of baiting. Govvy was then blocked for the edit summary that he used while removing SchroCat's post.
{{atop|1=G7'd. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)}}
Can an admin take a look at ]? It appears to be a "]" request for ]. -- ] (]) 01:06, 20 January 2025 (UTC)


:Qualifies for G7. Deleted by me. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 02:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
The block is particularly dubious given that a blatant instance of incivility by one of the involved parties has been completely ignored. I would appreciate it greatly if an uninvolved admin would review in which SchroCat refered to me as a {{tq|waste of space}}. If it is not immediately clear from the context that SchroCat was referring to me, please scroll up within the diff to the thread mentioned above and you'll see the exchange between myself and SchroCat. You can see from the chronology that following the closure of Govvy's thread, SchroCat moved down to a separate thread that had nothing to do with me and personally attacked me while making an unrelated comment. While I cannot read the edit summary that led to Govvy's block, I would be very interested to know whether it rose to the level of calling a fellow editor a 'waste of space'. In light of this diff and SchroCat's baiting behavior at Govvy's talk page, I am requesting that they be warned that such behavior will not be tolerated in the future. I would have been willing to overlook the attack against me, but not after SchroCat bullied Govvy into getting himself blocked.
{{abot}}


== Sapo.pt ==
To summarize, SchroCat is Editor A, Govvy is Editor B, and I am Editor C. Editor A baits Editor B and attacks Editor C. When Editor B lashes out in response, 331dot blocks Editor B for two weeks and doesn't say a word to Editor A. Something about that just doesn't sit right with me. ] (]) 18:02, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*{{articlelinks|Sapo.pt}}
:SchroCat reverted my notification with the following edit summary: {{tq|Bugger off. I am utterly disinterested in people who spend so much time in trying to get other people blocked}}. Anyone who reads my post can see that I am asking for a block review and a warning; I'm not asking for anyone to be blocked. But given what we know about the edit summary for which Govvy was blocked, I would be interested to know if it really was any worse than . ] (]) 18:23, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
Could an admin undelete that redirect? Thanks ] (]) 08:39, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
::Good block, though perhaps the duration could have been shorter. Would be open to shortening it in response to a productive appeal. As to the rest of your post, please see ]. ] (]) 18:51, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
:{{done}} ] <sub>]</sub> 08:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
:::NOTTHEM applies to an appeal by the blocked editor. I'm not the blocked editor, nor is this really an appeal. I'm simply trying to present the full context, which shows that there was fault on both sides. I'd like to understand why one editor was blocked two weeks for an uncivil edit summary on their own talk page while the other editor attacked me on a public noticeboard in a thread that had nothing to do with me and didn't even get a warning. NOTTHEM doesn't explain that level of inconsistency. It's a fair question and I want a fair answer. ] (]) 20:52, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*(edit conflict) I appear to have gotten myself into a deeper mess than I intended to. The sequence of events from my point of view is that I noticed the addition of a post to a closed discussion, . I then Govvy to not post to a closed discussion. They then , and . Govvy then to do that. I then explained and encouraged them to drop the stick. They responded that (among other things) they and felt that ANI got something wrong. I didn't know what that meant and didn't know that there was a larger dispute at work here, I was only responding to the disruption of adding to a closed discussion. I then saw SchroCat's which again, I was not aware of the essence of the larger dispute but in hindsight I can see how such a post might not have been wise. Govvy then which I found to be wholly inappropriate for any civil discourse and decided to block. 2 weeks was a judgement call but I felt given the belligerent nature of Govvy's posts that the length was warranted.
:I've offered on their user talk page to remove the block if they would merely acknowledge that they acted inappropriately, but given they don't seem to want to do that. That only leads me to conclude that I was correct with the length of the block. If I was supposed to conduct an hours long FBI-level investigation of the entire matter before acting in response to an uncivil personal attack, then I will take my lumps. This is why I haven't addressed the conduct of others, because it did not seem pertinent. Again, if that was wrong, I'll accept that. ] (]) 19:08, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*Nothing bad about this block, whatsoever. I wish more admins would use this level of common sense. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px Black;">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 19:27, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*This review request by {{u|Lepricavark}} is out of order and should not be taken up. Only the blocked editor, which Lepricavark is not, may appeal their block. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 19:45, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*:As I noted above, this is not an appeal. This is a request for uninvolved admins to review the ''full context'' and take appropriate action (which or may not include an unblock). Mackensen is exactly right that this was a case of the referee catching the retaliation and not dealing with the instigator. The solution is not for you to shrug your shoulders and refuse to do anything because the wrong person pointed it out. ] (]) 21:07, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*::{{u|Lepricavark}}, use as many ambiguous words as you like, it's an appeal in all but name. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px Black;">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 21:57, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*:::I'll stick with my own interpretation of my own motives, thanks. Maybe I should remind you to AGF. ] (]) 22:00, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*::::{{u|Lepricavark}}, no need. I don't assume good faith with people like you. You have only one motive, and that's to disrupt. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px Black;">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 22:09, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*:::::Right. I've donated hours of my life to doing menial, gnoming work that nobody else wants to do because all I care about is creating disruption. No, my track record isn't really relevant. All that matters is that I've done something you don't like, so I couldn't possibly be here in good faith. You need to get it through your skull that it's possible for somebody to disagree with you in good faith. Maybe I can't write articles as well as you can, but that doesn't give you the right to spit in my face every time I say something you don't like. You are a bully. SchroCat is a bully. It's a sad indictment on this community that the two of you have been permitted to get away with your bullying for so long simply because you have enough friends to back you up. Clearly, Govvy doesn't have the right friends, so I guess he'll have to sit out an excessive block unless he says what the blocking admin says he has to say. But if someone were to actually block you, Cassianto, the block would be lifted within a matter of hours. And so you'll just keep on bullying people indefinitely and most of them will just put up with it because they know it's not worth the trouble to take it to ANI and watch you get away with it again. That is, until one day you insult the wrong person and they decide it's worth the time and effort to open an ArbCom case. Then you're probably screwed. But until then, carry on bullying people, I guess. Doesn't look like anyone here cares enough to do anything about it. ] (]) 22:43, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*Absolutely a warranted block for the comments made. ] (]) 19:51, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*The block was a little harsh. This wasn't one-sided. ~ ]] 20:18, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*:{{u|HAL333}}, is there a reason why you're stalking SchroCat and I? Not content with having already been warned about this, on these very pages, you continue with this creepy behaviour and now at this thread. Is it merely a coincidence that you find yourself at this two pages - poles apart from each other's area of interest? I would strongly suggest you stop. Now. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px Black;">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 21:58, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*::Excuse me? This was posted to a public noticeboard. How HAL333 found out about it is none of your business. Again, follow the advice you tried to shove down my throat yesterday and AGF. ] (]) 22:03, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*:::{{u|Lepricavark}}, keep your nose out. It has nothing to do with you. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px Black;">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 22:05, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*::::{{u|Cassianto}} It has nothing to do with you either. Did I mention you or Schrocat in my comment? In case you haven't realized the world doesn't revolve around you. Please ]. ~ ]] 22:19, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*:::::{{u|HAL333}}, you don't have to mention us. You post at the same venues, and that is enough. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px Black;">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 22:25, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*::::::{{re|Cassianto|Lepricavark|HAL333}} cool it. There is no need to be uncivil. Cassianto, please don't make personal attacks towards other editors, including calling them "disruptive" and not assuming good faith. You also made a comment below attacking an IP editor, who's points are just as valid for discussion here as ours are (see ]). You all know better. Thanks. ] ] 22:40, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*::::{{u|Cassianto}}, so far, you've issued a blatant personal attack against me and accused another editor of stalking because they dared to post on a highly-visible message board. It's clear that you've successfully derailed my thread and it will probably be closed down soon. Might want to stop before you go too far and some admin decides to treat NPA as more than a mere suggestion. ] (]) 22:26, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*:::::::{{u|Cassianto}} I'm sorry I didn't realize this was your "venue". I only commented about Govvy, and even deprecated my statement with the edit summary "]". But since you are so desperate to make this about you, I have added my view of your conduct below. ~ ]] 22:35, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
* This is a good illustration of the principle that the referee always catches the retaliation, not the original incident. So it goes. I probably can't be considered uninvolved, given that in the past decade I've expressed strong views on the infobox question, but Cassianto is already on infobox probation and his comments to Redrose64 and others at ] would, in my view, warrant a further enforcement block under that case or an outright topic ban given the general unhelpful and unpleasant nature of his contributions in that area. ] ] 20:38, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*Block was warranted, but a bit long. I also agree with Sandstein that we shouldn’t be reviewing this without an appeal from Govvy. If he were to make an appeal, I’d possibly suggest shortening the length of the block or unblocking depending on the content. The reason having an appeal is needed in most cases is because this wasn’t a flagrant abuse of discretion and there actually was an underlying issue. It makes no sense to lift a block without an appeal if there’s actually something to the block. ] (]) 21:29, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*:{{u|TonyBallioni}}, I was hoping that this thread would establish that the block, even if justified, was too long. Govvy hasn't been blocked for personal attacks since 2007; there was no need to jump straight to two weeks. Sure, it's Govvy's fault that he got blocked, but it's not Govvy's fault that the block was too long. You should be able to resolve the part that isn't Govvy's fault regardless of what Govvy does or doesn't do. ] (]) 21:50, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*::There’s a good reason we typically don’t like third-party threads. They typically create more heat than light and usually end with people on different sides of the underlying dispute fighting with one another. I agree that I’d probably shorten the block, but I don’t really see a good reason to do that when Govvy hasn’t asked in an appeal. There’s nothing really egregious here, so I think we can wait on that and handle it through the normal unblock process, which in my opinion is usually less intense and more productive than AN. ] (]) 21:58, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*:::It's not entirely a third-party thread. I was involved in a pair of related discussions and was targeted by the same user that baited Govvy. This wouldn't have been necessary at all if more of an effort had been made to enforce NPA in a consistent, even-handed manner. Speaking of which, I'm still waiting for an admin to acknowledge the existence of SchroCat's PA against me. ] (]) 22:09, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*:This is about where I fall.
*:
*:I think that the edit summary in question was absolutely a personal attack.
*:
*:Would I have blocked for that length? I probably would not have.
*:
*:Do I believe that the block was abusive, or outside of discretion? Not at all.
*:
*:Do I believe that the block was preventative, and not punitive? I do. In my opinion, this is evidenced by {{u|331dot}}'s : {{tq|I would be happy to remove the block if they concede that their actions were inappropriate (I don't seek an apology, just an acknowledgement) and agree to better control themselves in the future. They are also free to make an unblock request for someone else to review this. 331dot (talk) 15:28, 15 August 2020 (UTC)}}
*:
*:As of the time of this comment, no unblock request has been initiated. ]] 00:58, 16 August 2020 (UTC)


== Proxy question ==
How is Govvy suppose to post here if he blocked?? Also from what I understand isn’t all Cassianto posts a conflict of interest if he was one of the original people involved in the conflict? There are more issues than the block, however the instigation should be warned away also. ] (]) 22:07, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
:If you want people to take your comments seriously, why don't you log yourself in, rather than hide behind an anonymously IP address? '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px Black;">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 22:23, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
::IP, your comments should and will be taken seriously and are just as valid as a logged-in editor's comments ] ] 22:42, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
::::Ed6767: They will be taken seriously '''''only''''' if the editor is a true IP, and not an editor with an account who has logged out to comment, I believe that is the meaning of Cassianto's comment. ] (]) 03:35, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
I am just a Tottenham fan, I’ve rarely done an edit on Misplaced Pages, I just read a lot, I know Govvy because his name always pops up on those articles. That is all. ] (]) 23:00, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*Looks like the length is excessive. Not going to comment on the block itself but I see no reason for a two week duration when their is practically no history of issues. I would probably recommend 24-36 hours for a first offense in over a decade. ] (]) 22:25, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*I'll have to agree with Mackensen. Cassianto's violation of his probation merits a enforcement block or at least a reprimand. ~ ]] 22:35, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*:{{u|HAL333}}, I think might be what you're looking for, specifically the part that says {{green|''"The user under probation may also participate in wider policy discussions regarding infoboxes with no restriction."''}}. Check the facts before you type. It makes you look more informed. Happy editing! '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px Black;">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 06:27, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Unblock''' - Here's what I saw happen: Govvy is bullied, complains about it, the thread is shut down, his post is deleted, and he's told to drop the stick about his bullying complaint. He's bullied some more, lashes out, and ends up blocked for two weeks. Ridickulous. ]]] 22:46, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*:I saw this as a possibility too, and given the behaviour of another editor in this thread is causing me to become more inclined to this viewpoint. Govvy has got the message. In this case, I don't think there's much further disruption on his part that couldn't be resolved with a conditional unblock or a shorter block. Or, maybe Govvy should just enjoy a 2-week summer break? The weather is nice. ] ] 22:57, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*::I can't see the revdel'd edit summary so assuming it warranted a block (and everyone who can see it seems to agree that it did), I would say unblock as "time served". Two weeks is too much for what seems to be an isolated offense, particularly given the provocation. ]]] 23:04, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*:::It basically just said F off. We've seen that type of language go unsanctioned thousands of times. I'm not sure why it was particularly so much worse in this case as to warrant a 2 week block. ] (]) 23:07, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*::::I would only like to say that the edit summary consisted of more than F off, it also called the other user a F****** A******, in all caps. ] (]) 23:13, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*:::::How is that "fuck off" and "fucking asshole" = 2 weeks, but "dick" = nothing, and complaining about "dick" = warning to drop the stick? I find this to be intolerably unfair. ]]] 23:14, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*::::::I've given my explanation of my decision above. I considered the immediate problem in front of me. ] (]) 23:18, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*:::::::Yes, that is what I find intolerably unfair. The immediate problem in front of you was bullying. ]]] 00:39, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
*:::::::: Sorry, but this is a ridiculous summary. The initial unpleasant behavior in all this was Govvy's, and when it generated an unpleasant response Govvy went to ANI to whine about it. That didn't work because duh. Govvy dealt with that by whining and being unpleasant to some more people. Possibly there are multiple people who could reasonably be warned or blocked as a result of this story, but it's not a story about Govvy being unfairly bullied. --] (]) 02:56, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
*::::::Don't forget about 'waste of space'. Seems just as bad as what Govvy said, but I still can't get anyone to even acknowledge that it was said. Of course, Govvy's attack was directly provoked whereas SchroCat's remark about me was made on a thread that had nothing to do with either one of us. I keep pointing this out, but it's as if nobody can see it. ] (]) 23:19, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*::::::Does an F*** Off usually warrant a block or ANI discussion? It doesn't qualify as a PA, right? I've been subjected to those kind of attacks before and just want to know for future reference. (I'm a relative newcomer; I've been here for less than 3 years.) Thanks! ~ ]] 23:21, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*:::::::Not usually. I got a similar response from SchroCat when I notified him of this thread. I think it was the other half of Govvy's edit summary that went too far. ] (]) 23:22, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*:::::I think he had every right to be pissed, but it's still out of line, yet as an isolated incident, it still didn't exactly warrant a 14-day block IMO given the comment was said mostly in the heat of the moment in my view. However, it's hard to interpret exactly what was said given the wide range of potentially offensive words that begin with F and the same with words that begin with A. ] ] 23:22, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*The edit summary in question is {{tq| Reverted 1 edit by SchroCat (talk): FUCK OFF AND LEAVE ME ALONE YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE, (TW)}} I think the revdel was fine (though I usually don’t revdel cursing) and again, a block of some length was warranted, but there’s no reason not to have it public either while we have a thread on it. ] (]) 23:30, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Unblock''' the lad & let's walk away from a ''cancel culture'' environment. As for the aforementioned ''edit summary''? throw it at me, as I've had worst thrown at me, in my near 15 years on Misplaced Pages. Let's get back to the topic of infoboxes. ] (]) 23:36, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
::{{u|GoodDay}} As I stated, I have offered to unblock if the user would acknowledge that their behavior was inappropriate(I don't seek an apology, just an acknowledgement) but the user doesn't seem interested in that. ] (]) 23:38, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
:::The ball is in his court then. BTW, who's the IP in this discussion? ] (]) 23:40, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
::{{u|GoodDay}}, it's not "cancel culture", it's core Misplaced Pages policy. Whether or not the block was excessive is another matter. ''']''' <small>(] - ])</small> 00:11, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
:::That there's no edit-warring is what's important. Editors cussing at each other in discussion or through edit-summaries? we can survive that. The policy ], has several interpretations. ] (]) 00:18, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Unblock''' I concur with Levivich's summary. It's plain to see that this situation has not been handled evenly. ] (]) 23:55, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. I have no opinion about the validity or the duration of the block, but I want to comment on the point raised by Sandstein. There's nothing procedurally improper about this block review thread, and there is no procedural requirement for a review/appeal by the blocked user. An unblock request is a separate procedure and that one indeed can only be requested by the blocked user. We have a formal and well defined process for that. Here at WP:AN the community can review any admin action by any admin, including a block, an unblock, protection, deletion, whatever. That's what WP:AN is for and such community block reviews are done here all the time, often at the request of the blocking admin in fact. ] (]) 00:10, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Unblock''' I think Govvy gets the point. I trust that they'll be a little more restrained next time. ~ ]] 00:22, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
*: Based on what do you think that? --] (]) 02:56, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
*Looking at the interactions between these editors, what's obvious to me is that they don't play nicely together and it's best for everyone if they're separated. The 14-day block of Govvy might have been a bit strong in context; but if we unilaterally rescind the block without doing anything else, then nothing gets better. Maybe ibans are the right tool here.—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 01:39, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
*:That is overly simplistic. We don't deal with bullying by punishing the bully and the victim alike. ] (]) 01:50, 16 August 2020 (UTC)


I recently enabled the and have seen a number of IPs that are flagged as proxies (e.g., {{redacted}}). Would IPs being flagged with this tool warrant them being blocked? ] ] 20:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
{{od}} I am wondering if Govvy simply left in disgust over what he felt was 'sanctioned bullying' by SchroCat and others. 331dot readily admitted that he was blocking for the immediate issue without having investigated the underlying one. It does appear that Govvy was simply pushed too far. I ''completely'' understand that level of frustration, and think that Cassianto's non-AGF commentary here (referring to a pretty generic edit as 'creepy' pretty much poisons the well against the person calling out his behavior). <br>
:You can report IPs that you suspect of being proxies at ]. ] (]/]) 21:00, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
I literally have no dog in this fight; I haven't interacted with ''any'' of the participants and am looking at this as a 'what-makes-wiki-en-work best' situation. On the surface, this looks like a 'more light than heat' discussion, but it ''really'' isn't. It focuses on our treatment of one another and the inherent fairness with which we base our editing on; AGF, consensus, etc.<br>
::@] my question is more that if i see that info in the widget when blocking an IP, is it safe to block it as a proxy? ] ] 21:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
Cassianto straight-up should have not said anything here, as all the user had to contribute was rancor and name-calling, and that accomplishes nothing. Govvy has likely left the building feeling he was treated shoddily. He lost his temper and was justifiably blocked for it. Why he was blocked as long as he was by 331dot ], but the apprehension noted at shortening it without the user - who's had a far cleaner block record than most of us here have - smacks of a fair amount of at the least not wanting to rock the boat or, at worst, simple cowardice at not owning up to a systemic failure of the blocking protocol. <br>
Shorten the block and let the user know its been shortened. The guy was over-punished. - ] (]) 04:06, 16 August 2020 (UTC) :::I don't think so because I don't think it's 100% accurate. ] (]/]) 21:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
::::OK thank you! ] ] 21:28, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
*331dot has said that Govvy only need say the edit summary was inappropriate to be unblocked. 331dot did not stipulate that Govvy must agree with the block or say that it was ''fair''. As that's the kind of language Govvy went to ANI to protest in the first place, seeing that edit summary as unacceptable should be straightforward (which, again, doesn't mean the block was necessarily ''fair''). Govvy, maybe you can say "only blocking me was an unfair way to address the situation, but I admit what I said in the edit summary was inappropriate," then 331dot can unblock as offered, and we can all move onto other things while lamenting our collective failure to be consistent with regard to civility enforcement (something which isn't intended as a criticism of this block in particular , but a more general statement). &mdash; <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 05:11, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::{{re|EvergreenFir}} Yes, the tool is saying there "In the last ''x'' days, at least one person connecting on this IP has been using proxy software ''y''", which is definitely evidence toward an NOP block, but not enough on its own. Also, my understanding of {{slink|foundation:Legal:Wikimedia_IP_Information_Tool_Policy#Use_and_disclosure_of_IP_information}} is that you can't publicly say that the tool says a specific IP is a proxy except "as reasonably required in use of the tool", which I would read as allowing you to say that a block was partly based on IP Info without going into further detail, but probably not allowing you to post an example IP and say "the tool says this is a proxy". Out of an abundance of caution I've redacted+revdelled the example you gave above; if I'm misunderstanding the policy, no objection to being reverted. <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">&#91;]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 21:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
:{{u|Jack Sebastian}}, then why was I pinged? '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px Black;">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 06:25, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
::::::It's a reason to treat the IP with more suspicion and investigate further but it's not good enough on its own for a block. {{small|I think revdel is a bit of an overreaction personally.}} ] &#124; ] 22:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
::{{u|Cassianto}} Does pinging mean your input is ''required''? My outsider's view was that you didn't add something constructive to the discussion, and it was better off without it. This isn't a slam as to your other contributions or a sideways glance at your block log; it was an evaluation of your comments here. - ] (]) 07:09, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::::I think revdel is an over-reaction too, except ... that seems to be exactly what the "rules" for use of the tool say. This should probably be ironed out somewhere. ] (]) 22:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
*I am bowing out of this time sink. I am not participating in something where I am being openly called "a bully" for responding to a ping by offering my view, and calling out an editor (who has already for wiki stalking ). I apologise if I've said anything others have found to be "bullish", but if you don't want my opinion then don't ask for it by notifying me of such discussions and then complain when I respond to a comment that had me mentioned in it. This will be coming off my watch list and any further ping by the agitators will be considered ]. I hope you all solve the issue. Oh, and FWIW, although I'm thankful to {{u|331dot}} for issuing a sound block (despite all this "cancel culture" nonsense people have been mentioning) I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt and say '''reduce block'''. If Govvy can then show that they understand that incivility is not a one-way street and that they should treat others how they expect to be treated themselves, then I'm not opposed to an eventual unblock. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px Black;">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 06:48, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
::::::::I don't even see the reason for redacting, let alone revdel. People can talk about IP addresses, especially in the context of proxies and especially when they aren't connected to an individual user / account. ] (]) 00:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Do not unblock''' AFAIK, we do not do third party unblock requests. ''Govvy has not requested unblock as yet.'' Govvy has been informed of the conditions for an unblock before the current block expires. While I might not have blocked for as long, I trust TonyBallioni's judgment and do not find the block excessive or abusive. I look forward to Govvy's return, but not quite yet. --<b>] ]</b> 07:00, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::::::Over on ] we openly talk about IPs and proxies, so it doesn't make sense that we couldn't here IMO
*Since some here have said the block was too long, I have reduced it to a week. My offer to unblock immediately should Govvy do as requested still stands. ] (]) 07:02, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::::::Thank you all for the input. Much appreciated ] ] 05:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
::And I think that was a good move on your part. If and when Govvy is done licking their wounded ego, I hope they take you up on your offer and take the advice you offered to heart. If that same type of incivility pops up again, there won't be anyone defending them. - ] (]) 07:09, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
::::::::::It's nothing about talking about IPs in general. Obviously saying that an IP is a proxy is fine. It's specifically about saying that ''IP Info says'' an IP is a proxy. That's proprietary information from Spur that the WMF licenses on the condition of not disseminating. I also would like more clarity on the scope of that rule, but at least the plain-text reading says we can't attribute information to the tool. <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">&#91;]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 05:54, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::::Ah, thank you for clarifying. Much appreciated ] ] 06:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)


== Undeletion + XML export request ==
*Now that Govvy has had time to sleep on this, hopefully they'll make a sincere unblock request. Without that, I don't think there's a lot to be done here, although the length of the block does seem a bit harsh. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 08:02, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
*:Not really. The block is marked by 331 for immediate revocation as and when Govvy accepts that their personal attacks that led to the block were unacceptable. If they continue to refuse to do that after having 24 hours to calm down, it represents a rather worrying judgement issue and I would say the week's block is appropriate for that. &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;] (]) 08:28, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' I had a discussion with Govvy about PAs back in March - I'm on mobile, diffs aren't easy, but it's in the Archive 6 of my talk, search for his name. I really tried to get him to accept that PAs, even 'mild' ones, aren't on, and asked him for a clear statement that he understood that and wouldn't do it again, but he didn't provide one. Maybe if I'd pursued it at the time we wouldn't be here. I'd be happy to see an immediate unblock if he were to simply acknowledge that his behaviour wasn't acceptable (he doesn't need to say that everyone else's behaviour was optimal, because it wasn't), and agree to refrain from making PAs. ]] 08:55, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
*It's a shame that the way to win a content dispute is to provoke the other person into swearing.—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 10:39, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
::My action should not be interpreted as any step in any content dispute. We are all responsible for our own actions; one cannot be baited if one does not take the bait. ] (]) 10:49, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
{{archivebottom}}


Please undelete pre-December 2007 revisions of ], use ], and email me the contents of the XML file you get, per ]. ]<sub>]<sub>]</sub></sub> (]/]) 04:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
== Civil Threats ==
: I've undeleted the history. You can do the export process yourself then. Since it was just a dated PROD and it looks like there were prior copyvio concerns but the copyright holder eventually provided permission, there's no reason the history can't also be available here. ] ] 04:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
{{atop|1=After a few days of debate we now seem to be just rehashing issues without advancing them, so it's probably a good time to close it and let the content discussion continue elsewhere.<br>
::{{Done}}; ]. ]<sub>]<sub>]</sub></sub> (]/]) 05:08, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
'''<u>Short version</u>''':
*The perceived legal threat has been clarified per ]. {{u|Stayfree76}} is '''warned''' to take care about civility in the tone of their talkpage posts. Discussion about content should continue on the talkpage with due regard for ].<br>
'''<u>Long version</u>''':
*<u>Legal threats</u>: The perceived legal threat has been clarified per ]. Referring to the risk of an edit appearing libelous is not the same as actually threatening to sue. However it's important that ambiguous statements are clarified, as has happened in this thread.
*<u>Civility</u>: This is more substantive. {{u|Stayfree76}}, please be warned to more carefully consider the tone of your posts, and to only comment on content not contributors. I appreciate the misinterpreted content of the "fix yourself" comment but for example there's no need to call people "hard-headed" or suggest that you're not going to "humor them" any longer. There is presently no consensus for a block or topic ban, but it's pretty close. More positively, the tone has improved since the block in July. Keep heading in that direction.
*<u>Topic bans</u> As above I didn't see a particular consensus for a Tban, or whether it would apply to one or both editors in this dispute. As a general comment, Tbans probably wouldn't hurt if problems persist. Suggest this as a next step if required, ideally referencing this thread so we don't need to do the entire discussion a second time.
*<u>Article content</u>: There's ongoing discussion about whether en-WP articles can say George Floyd was "murdered" without specifically calling anyone a "murderer" absent a court outcome. That depends a little on the interpretation placed on those words in different jurisdictions. It's a frequent debate on school shooting articles and other sensitive topics, and requires even greater care when actual court proceedings are pending. The precise wording should be debated at the article , with appropriate regard for BLP.
*<u>Random good advice</u>: Lastly, {{u|Valereee}} has some good advice below - if you're stuck in a dispute with one other editor, go work on a different article for a bit and then come back with a fresh perspective. There's millions of pages that need improvement, and the original article will still be there when you return.
Happy to discuss, as always. -- ] (]) 02:51, 18 August 2020 (UTC)}}


== Misplaced Pages talk:Help desk/Archive 19 ==
I have been trying to explain to ] that George Floyd was murdered on the ] since the officers in it were charged with murder. The user tried to claim that a murder doesn’t occur until the person is convicted which clearly isn’t true as I showed an example from a terror attack. The user went on to accuse me of libel, used bold lettering to say “Fix yourself immediately” and said I could face a civil penalty. This is excessive as I never actually edited the page and seems threatening. This user has ] for being uncivil but making legal threats is a whole different scenario. I always try to explain myself and to threaten someone for using a talk page just isn’t right. Thank you. ] (]) 23:19, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
:{{u|Lima Bean Farmer}} Per the ], we cannot label someone a murderer until they are convicted in a court of law of murder. ] (]) 23:21, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
:
:{{u|Lima Bean Farmer}}, we have a strict policy against legal threats (see ]). I'll take a look. ] ] 23:30, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
::Yep, I'd support an indef block here - still many issues with this editors civility following other blocks. ] ] 23:32, 15 August 2020 (UTC)


{{atop | result = Stray page deleted <small>(])</small> ] (]) 14:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC) }}
:: ], I did not label him a murderer. I said that George Floyd was murdered. Also, that’s not the point of me coming here. The point is that another editor threatened me with civil penalties over edits in a talk page. ] (]) 23:33, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
Perhaps someone could take a look at ]? It looks like the page was created back in 2008, perhaps by mistake, and has just been "existing" ever since then. The Help Desk archive is currently at 14 pages but eventually it will reach 19; so, at some point, this is going to need to be dealt with. I'm not sure whether the page needs only to be blanked or should be deleted, but the latter will obviously need to be done by an administrator. -- ] (]) 07:13, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
::: Agree that a NLT block may be warranted. Lima Bean Farmer, the killing has been determined to be a homicide, not a murder. It's not a murder until someone is convicted of murder for committing the act. Labeling it a murder now before someone is convicted only suggests that those who have been charged are guilty. ] (]) 23:36, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
:{{done}} I've deleted it (G2, "test page" seemed close enough). - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:53, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
::::{{u|331dot}}, We get this in the UK all the time. The coroner returns a verdict of unlawful killing. If the sole suspect is then not convicted, there is a conflict between the sources. But Stayfree 76 has been a relentlessly disruptive voice at that article, so I would support a narrow TBAN. ''']''' <small>(] - ])</small> 00:06, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::So, could someone please block this editor? Thank you! ] (]) 01:10, 16 August 2020 (UTC) ::Thank you {{u|The Bushranger}}. -- ] (]) 08:06, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
{{abot}}
{{od}}There's several issues here: NLT, civility, disruption. Starting with the easy one (NLT): the edit is unhelpful and might be perceived as a legal threat. It is not an overt threat to sue and doesn't warrant an immediate NLT block. The appropriate response is clarification per the "Perceived legal threats" section of WP:NLT, which I've done. None of this takes away from this editor's problems with civility and disruption, which need more review to determine if any progress has been made since the last block. Doesn't look like it at this point. {{u|Stayfree76}}, if you're reading this perhaps you have a view. -- ] (]) 01:38, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
:] - You need to clarify - say that this is not a legal threat, and we can move on. It really does borderline a ], which is actionable by an indefinite block until you retract it. Let's not go down this pathway; just clarify this statement and say that it's not a legal threat, and remove the statement. I don't want to move forward with blocking you over this. Please? ]<sup><small><b>] ]</b></small></sup> 01:47, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
::Woah ], what are you blocking me for? It is a legal threat. I’m not retracting that. I’d like to see myself get blocked for reporting someone threatening civil penalties against me. One thing for sure, I’m not backing down. This was a legal threat. ] (]) 01:51, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
:::]! LOL! Sorry about that! I accidentally pinged you instead of Stayfree76. I caught it as soon as I hit "publish changes", and I yelled at my monitor as it saved - "NOOOO!" :-) ]<sup><small><b>] ]</b></small></sup> 01:54, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
::::Just saw that now! Sorry ], didn’t mean to sound harsh. Just thought I was facing a block all of a sudden for no reason! No worries! ] (]) 01:57, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::] - You have nothing to apologize for. It was my fault for pinging you instead of Stayfree76, not yours. :-) ]<sup><small><b>] ]</b></small></sup> 01:59, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
::::::No worries ], nobody’s perfect, not even Wikipedians! ] (]) 02:06, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
:::{{u|Lima Bean Farmer}}, see . Oshwah inadvertently pinged you by mistake. ] (]) 01:53, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
I've left a message on their talkpage too (Stayfree's, not Lima Bean Farmer's!) -- ] (]) 01:56, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
:] - :-P ]<sup><small><b>] ]</b></small></sup> 02:03, 16 August 2020 (UTC)


== ] closures ==
hey all, i just want to say... of course that was not a threat. i linked to an article about what happens when media does defamation/libel, which is no joking matter, but something the user i commented to kept doing. that being said... im not the person that could sue anybody for saying anything about someone else, but the living persons definately can. its a very touchy subject, and why i thought it '''very important''' to ensure the user know without a shadow of a doubt you cannot run around calling innocent people a murderer, especially on wikipedia. (guilt until proven innocent, right?). in conclusion, maybe someone can give me a pointer at a better way to handle that situation as the person was in direct violation of[REDACTED] policies. in my opinion me doing it politely, which i did multiple times, is better than some formal arbitration. ] (]) 04:32, 16 August 2020 (UTC)


{{Userlinks|2601AC47}} {{Pagelinks|Deb Matthews}} {{Pagelinks|Ministry of Education (Ontario)}}
:Actually ], discussion on a talk page about the wording of an article is not against Misplaced Pages policy. That is what they are there for. Talk pages are a lot more relaxed and open to a discussion than editing on a page (edit warring). Perhaps ] may help. Also you should never make a legal threat. Whether or not you were planning on doing it, that is a “big no”. If ever a discussion gets out of hand, there are many sources such as the tea house and this page to get help. Arbitration would be the final step which would be for a larger issue. I haven’t even read that article you put but you should never threaten anything other than a block, and even that should be up to an administrator (or someone who can perform a block). You may also want to read ] and others like it so that you can become better at debating. It appears that many of the debates you got involved in turned into arguments. This is seen as uncivil and improper. Everyone has the right to their opinion. Thank you! ] (]) 04:51, 16 August 2020 (UTC)


2 sections ] and ](MoE) were closed by User:2601AC47. The closing user participated in the MoE discussion. I find the MoE closing discussion summary inaccurate and disrespectful. The Deb Matthews closing summary cites the MoE one. I would like a more respectful summary of the discussions.
:: i find it valuable to look at the full conversation. i explained to the person '''twice''' that it was not acceptable to call it a murder, and only the third time mentioned it can be defamatory calling someone a murderer before they are convicted of the crime and i feel i handled this very politely considering. i think we are attacking the wrong user here... i mean i kept saying its not a murder and they kept saying it was... at that point a link to defamation seemed in order as they obviously werent taking my word for it. i know english isnt the first language of everyone on wikipedia, but i am alittle unsure how it could be construed as a threat for simply mentioning something that is actionable. last thing we want is the living persons to sue wikipedia, which in the US, can easily happen, especially when this situation is on the forefront of the planet. also pinging as this seems to be important. {{u|Oshwah}}, {{u|Euryalus}} ] (]) 04:55, 16 August 2020 (UTC)


I have discussed with the user on ]. The user refused to change the summaries. ] (]) 19:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
:: oh yea, one final edit. yes, i was blocked for awhile, but actually if you look at all the edits i suggested which ended in me being blocked, 80% of them or more have been put into affect and tbh think i was severely misunderstood as i have cognitive disabilities and other military related disabilities and sometimes have trouble with how i write down a thought/idea. also, lima bean here has been blocked upwards of 4 times for policy violations, where i have not had a single edit reverted. please note that ''fix yourself'' is a common phrase used in the US Marine Corps as a friendly nudge to an individual engaging in incorrect behavior and is no more than a warning to ensure the person is aware of that fact. ^_^ ] (]) 05:13, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
], you’re not getting the point. You should never suggest that another editor may be sued. First, vandalism happens all the time on Misplaced Pages. Second, calling someone a murderer on a talk page is not defamation. That’s what a talk page is for. No editor should be discouraged from editing a talk page on constructive topics such as wording. Third, all my blocks were not related to civility or interactions with other editors. You have consistently argued with other editors and multiple other editors have warned you about this. Please read the civility article I linked above and read similar articles. This is not the military. There is no commander. If a problem gets out of hand, ask a third party editor, use the tea house, or even this page to report it and find out how it should be dealt with. ] (]) 05:23, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
:Talk pages are not exempt from BLP, no place on Misplaced Pages is. Misplaced Pages is not a discussion forum, you do not have a right to express opinions here. You may not go around accusing individuals of murder until/unless they are ''convicted'' of such. Also see 331dot's comment at the top of this thread, and read the linked ''policy''. ] (]) 05:33, 16 August 2020 (UTC)


:I would say something similar in a more polite but firm way: go look for sources and add then instead of insisting on deleting the table. You are fighting a losing battle. ] (]/]) 19:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
], that is true. However, I was discussing the wording. I was not sure if it should be considered murder. In fact, it was deemed a homicide and 4 people were charged with his murder. I get that it shouldn’t be on there but the talk page is the perfect place to discuss this type of issue. A warning against a law suit or civil penalties should never be given out on Misplaced Pages, so I get what you’re saying but that statement itself is wrong. ] (]) 05:55, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
::Just so it's clear, are you supporting a change to the closure summaries or opposing it or neutral? ] (]) 19:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
* The legal threat was crossing the line imo. ~ ]] 16:58, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
:::I'm saying that you should withdraw this request and get back to editing. I agree 2601 was rude but that doesn't change the fact that they are correct that you were wrong to try to remove material from both articles. ] (]/]) 19:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
: {{u|HAL333}}, please understand that it is '''impossible''' for a person to sue someone for defamation when the person suing isn't the one defamed. That fact alone should tell you that it was not a threat as i '''have no legal authority, at all, ever''' to engage in a civil lawsuit against a person in which i am not targeted by. the only person who could sue who be the person they defamed and likely it wouldnt be some random editor getting hit, but the wikimedia org itself. like come on, people in America sue for much less, lets not be the ones that are responsible for[REDACTED] no longer being freely edited. ] (]) 21:52, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
::::I decline your request to withdraw. ] makes it clear that I can ask for disrespectful comments to be removed. ] (]) 19:53, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::Sure, you can ask, but nobody is going to override this inconsequential close of a discussion where many editors told you that you were wrong. ] (]/]) 20:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::I'm not asking for the closes to be overturned, I just asked for the summaries to be changed. ] (]) 20:06, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
:So much for cooperation... <span style="color:#7E790E;">2601AC47</span> (]<big>·</big>]<big>·</big>]) <span style="font-size:80%">Isn't a IP anon</span> 19:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
::Snarky remarks really aren't helpful. ] (]/]) 20:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
:::May be I should have more specifically mentioned ] (metaphorically, if there's ever confusion). But moreover, Legend's concerns pertain to the articles that was being edited on (mostly pertaining to Ontario-based agencies), which Legend appeared to ingratiatingly remove some "uncited" information from. I reverted some of them, and as a BLPN watcher, took note of this in trying to explain to them that there are guidelines, especially on citing sources and the MoS. So far, I've not really seen that (prove me wrong). Ultimately, I could suggest to Legend that this is their own responsibility, but alas, thinks that I and some others are at fault here. <span style="color:#7E790E;">2601AC47</span> (]<big>·</big>]<big>·</big>]) <span style="font-size:80%">Isn't a IP anon</span> 20:13, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
::::I think you should probably recalibrate how you communicate with other editors. You come across as sometimes rude and dismissive in that discussion. ] (]/]) 20:15, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
::::I'm thinking 2601AC47 is coming off a little rude and dismissive in THIS discussion as well. ] (]) 20:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::Yes, they are. But Legend of 14 is coming across as a Wikilawyer rather than a collaborative editor in all of the noticeboard discussions that they have started in the last week or two. ] (]) 20:42, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::They also seem to have a very skewed viewpoint of ] . - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::::I don't know what Legend's background is, but if someone said ] to me in a professional setting, I'd think they were being rude and unprofessional. It's unfortunate that we've normalized people being jerks on wiki and whenever someone comes to complain about it, the response is usually "well, that's not really that uncivil" or "well, they were being a pain in the ass, so it's justified". ] (]/]) 21:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::::Wasn't your response for me to withdraw this discussion? Seeking clarity. ] (]) 21:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::::{{outdent|1}} Yes, I did, because your report was about changing a summary of a discussion in which the outcome would remain the same. Several editors have told you to stop removing uncited, non-controversial material from articles, so you should stop doing that instead of starting an AN discussion about the impolite close of the discussion. ] (]/]) 22:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::::I have stopped doing that. I respect consensus. I can both ask for the summaries to be respectful and not remove uncited material for which consensus has found to be non-controversial. ] (]) 22:07, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::Now, to hopefully not add on to the pile that this may become, I would try finding consensus in a similar way for what you're editing with regards to the pages of the government agencies. <span style="color:#7E790E;">2601AC47</span> (]<big>·</big>]<big>·</big>]) <span style="font-size:80%">Isn't a IP anon</span> 22:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::True, Phil, for a relatively new editor, Legend of 14 has brought more cases to noticeboards than some editors do over years spent editing on the project. If this becomes habitual, this approach to getting things done ones way can backfire on an editor. Noticeboards are a place to go to after basic discussion has failed to come to a resolution, not for the kind of disagreements we all face on a regular basis. You don't want to spend more time talking about editing than actually editing. And, for goodness' sake, don't file a complaint over how this complaint is being handled. No need to come to my User talk page to claim I'm being disrespectful, too. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 21:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::::If you have concerns about me resorting to notice boards, perhaps talk to Adam Bishop who removed 2 discussions from article talk pages, which is why I resorted to WP:BLPN for those articles. For my 5 additions to WP:BLPN on Jan. 17, I truly believed I had no where else to go. Also, so we're clear, can you please clarify if you believe user talk pages are an appropriate place to raise concerns about uncivil conduct like name calling? ] (]) 21:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::::I've made clear at BLPN my issue with your approach here, but I do see your point that you followed the normal instructions only to have two talkpage threads removed. I don't really see why they were removed. @] can you explain? <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">&#91;]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 06:37, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::Seemed like an obvious troll to me, being disruptive and making ridiculous claims just to annoy everyone. ] (]) 13:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::::Liz this just seems to be par for the course. While Legend make some really good minor positive contributions, they seem to only be here to edit per ]. As soon as there is some sort of conflict, they have demonstrated that they cannot manage consensus building . ''Many editors'' have tried to engage with Legend in good-faith to guide and correct them, but they are very easily offended, resort to novel wiki-lawyering arguments, and thing escalate from there. ''In good faith I believe they are trying to navigate the system,'' but keep hitting a wall for various reasons, and thing escalate quickly because of how they choose to handle the confrontation. I believe a mentor for them would be a great route for them, otherwise I am very concerned we're going to continue to see far more heat than light from this contributor. ]&thinsp;] 15:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::::Yes, that has been my experience. I thought that I was trying to guide and correct this editor, but the response was to accuse me of calling them names. If someone with more patience than I have wants to mentor Legend of 14 then that could be the approach to take, but it would depend on them being willing to listen to advice. ] (]) 15:32, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::::Let's talk about your approach to handling disputes and consensus building.
::::::::*Leaving condescending and other disrespectful comments on my talk page https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Legend_of_14&diff=prev&oldid=1270062605 https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Legend_of_14&diff=prev&oldid=1270076126 https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Legend_of_14&diff=prev&oldid=1270086734 https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Legend_of_14&diff=prev&oldid=1270370468.
::::::::*Ignoring my requests to not post on my talk page: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Legend_of_14&diff=prev&oldid=1270362323 https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Legend_of_14&diff=prev&oldid=1270370468
::::::::*Linking an essay section about routinely banning other editors from my talk page, when I haven't done that https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Tiggerjay&diff=prev&oldid=1270500629
::::::::*Shaming me for challenging your AfD https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Deb_Hutton_(2nd_nomination)&diff=prev&oldid=1270475022
::::::::] (]) 15:57, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::To me, characterizing as "shaming me for challenging your AfD" supports Tiggerjay's above. The other diffs show civil attempts to help you understand the culture on Misplaced Pages. ]&nbsp;] 16:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::::::It is disappointing that the culture is talking down to editors for not being on Misplaced Pages for over a decade and daring to share an opinion, posting repetitive talk page notices for literally no reason, and replying to a request to stop posting on a talk page with a snarky comment. Thank you for clarifying that editors do not deserve equal treatment, and that merit of arguments can be dismissed based on the age of the editor making them. ] (]) 16:37, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::::At this point I'm just going to leave, because has been made clear by this discussion and other thread, I am not going to be treated with respect. I'm not wanted here, so I'm leaving. ] (]) 16:40, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
:Too much to read. Is this about the wording of the closing statement? ] (]) 16:43, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
::And about Legend and I over that. Looks like Legend's had enough, anyway (I wish them well elsewhere). <span style="color:#7E790E;">2601AC47</span> (]<big>·</big>]<big>·</big>]) <span style="font-size:80%">Isn't a IP anon</span> 16:45, 22 January 2025 (UTC)


== How do we handle Israel Palestine new articles created by non ECP editors nowadays? ==
=== Not getting the point ===


For example, ]. In theory I think this could be deleted via ] for violating ]. But is that what we do? Or do we look the other way if the article is OK? Should we just protect it ECP and call it a day?
] is not getting the point that they should not be making legal threats such as they did on the ]. While this user made it clear they had no intention of a legal threat towards me, they have not explained that this was inappropriate or that they won’t do it again. They also don’t seem to get, based on their last edit on their ] that the usage of a talk page to discuss wording, such as the one for George Floyd, is acceptable, and no threat should be made. On top of all of that, their comments are still uncivil. Their most recent one in their talk page called me a “hard headed person” and said “its not about you” in bold they are not ] and now have resorted to ]. The user has been repeatedly warned about this and I even gave them articles on civility. I have been civil with them this entire time. Please look into this, thank you! ] (]) 22:01, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
], ], ], or another editor, please take a look at this. Thank you! ] (]) 00:34, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
* I think Stayfree76 is here to ]. He has caused more disruption with his 136 edits than most editors with a hundred times that number. ''']''' <small>(] - ])</small> 08:33, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
**I'm not sure what his precise motivation is, and I haven't reviewed all of the contention, but perhaps a temporary (three to six month?) TBAN on ] and ] (and points of law) would allow him to demonstrate he can edit constructively in other areas, if indeed he is ]. It would also be nice if he would type like an adult with adult punctuation and capitalization. ] (]) 08:51, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*Lime Bean Farmer, while I think their post was wrong, so was yours. Using the talk page to discuss the appropriate wording in the article is fine. Using the talk page to discuss your personal belief that the killing was a murder is not. The fact that your personal belief is shared by the prosecutor and many others is not enough to change things. It's well accepted that the article is not going to call the killing a murder until there is a conviction for murder, therefore, please stop calling the killing a murder until that or at least unless you are genuinely asking for a change to the article rather than simply stating your personal belief. As you have already been told, ] applies everywhere on[REDACTED] including talk pages. At the time when this was still extremely raw in the days after the video, it's probable we let some of that stuff slide. But now, it's reasonable for us to start enforcing BLP more stringently so inappropriate comments on the talk page may be removed and the offender (i.e. you) blocked. To be clear, this does not excuse Stayfree76's comment but I think others have already made it sufficiently clear that their behaviour wasn't acceptable. ] (]) 09:29, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
::{{u|Nil Einne}}, there is a fine distinction: the medical examiners are generally reported to have ruled that the death was a homicide. That does not prejudge culpability, which is a matter for the courts to decide in respect of Chauvin and the rest. Stayfree76's position is that it can't be described as a homicide until after the trials, but that isn't stopping multiple RS from doing so and should not stop us either. The inconsistency between one legal finding that a death is a homicide and another in respect of responsibility for that homicide is really not our problem to fix: there are plenty of cases where death has been ruled as homicide at inquest but the only likely culprit has been acquitted. ''']''' <small>(] - ])</small> 10:39, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
:::<p>{{replyto|JzG}} to be clear this has nothing to do with the word homicide, which did not occur in my comment. Since the death has been ruled a homicide by the coroner, if people want to call it such on the article talk page, that's fine. As our article says homicide "{{tqi|requires only a volitional act by another person that results in death, and thus a homicide may result from accidental, reckless, or negligent acts even if there is no intent to cause harm}}" so doesn't even suggest the killing was unlawful. Although since juries seem free to talk about their verdict in the US, we know that in some cases the jury seems to have been unable to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that it was a homicide, rather than concluding it was but it was lawful. And the situation in England and Wales (or the whole UK?) may be different. But how to deal with a contradiction between a coroner and court case is IMO an argument for another time and place. </p><p>Murder is what I referred to as it's normally taken to mean a specific crime at least in many common law jurisdictions in the anglosphere. (I understand it can get a little complicated in places like Greece where such distinctions are not so clear.) It's generally accepted that if the only people who can realistically be accused of the crime have known identities, are alive and available for prosecution but have not been convicted, we should not describe such a homicide as a murder. Despite that, if an editor wants to argue for some change to an article, for example that an article should call a killing a murder, that is generally an acceptable use of the talk page provided they are using reliable secondary sources and willing to ] if it's clear their arguments are rejected by the community. </p><p>But until that happens, if the article does not describe the killing as a murder (except for any direct quotations etc), editor's should not call it a murder either anywhere on the English Misplaced Pages including in talk pages, again except quotations etc where necessary. They of course free to call it what they want outside Misplaced Pages or to personally believe it's a murder. (By free I mean it's none of our concern. I make no comment on any external site ToS nor hypothetical legal risks.) </p><p>In the case of Lima Bean Farmer, they started off with "{{talk quote inline|many people believe that race was a motive to the murder of George Floyd. Stating that the officers are white simply supports a common belief that his murder was racially motivated}}". While technically you could make the argument they were simply stating the common belief that this a racially motivated murder, IMO this was unnecessary. It would be easy to have simply said something like "how George Floyd was treated" which is also more inclusive. (You can believe there was a racial motivation without believing there was a murder whether that means you think there wasn't a murder or feel it's best to let a jury decide.) </p><p>Still maybe that comment by itself could be left be. But when challenged, they didn't say they were simply describing this as a common belief. Instead they followed this up with <small><ins>(inserted with edit)</ins></small> "{{talk quote inline|Actually Stayfree76, it was a murder. I’m not saying that based on my beliefs, the officers were charged with murdering him. So yes, it is a murder. <snipped> But I wanted to clarify that this incident is considered murder.}}" <small><ins>(end insert)</ins></small> and "{{talk quote inline|This is a murder since all four officers were charged with murder}}". Now we start to have a problem. They are no longer simply describing what others believe, but are starting to argue that a charge with murder means the killing is a murder. This is flawed, but more importantly in an issue like this which directly affects those four individuals named in our articles, they should not be making such claims unless they are trying to argue for some change to our article/s. Again, they are free to make such arguments outside Misplaced Pages, but Misplaced Pages isn't the place for contentious claims about living people which aren't related to article content. Call the killing a killing or homicide, but don't call it a murder except for necessary direct quotations or when a conviction (including any guilty plea) is secured. (What happens if all four accused die before a court case is another argument for a different time and place.) </p><p>] (]) 11:48, 17 August 2020 (UTC) <small><ins>insert time: 12:45, 17 August 2020 (UTC)</ins></small></p>
::::And in case it's unclear, I understand this is an emotive issue. But as I said, while it may have been okay to turn a blind eye in the early days, IMO it's come to a time where we should start enforcing BLP norms, especially since this is a case where the subject matter may be extremely notable, but the individuals are only high profile because of that one event. (By comparison, I think it's reasonable we tend to let more technical BLP vios slide with highly notable individuals e.g. Biden or Trump.) If any editor can't resist the urge to call the killing a murder, maybe it would be best for them to just edit somewhere else. Another clarification, I don't think a block of Lima Bean Farmer is already justified. I was simply making the point that if they refuse to abide by BLP and keep calling the killing a murder, they are likely to be blocked. I felt it necessary to make it clear that BLP is also important including on talk pages and they cannot simply brush it aside. ] (]) 12:11, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*I agree with what I understand ]''' (]) 10:18, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*I assume we're talking about On the spectrum of wikibehavior, I think we're further away from the platonic ideal I'd like to see, but this is a long way from the kind of threats where blocking should be considered. -- ] ] 12:58, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*Agree with Roysmith and DGG. The OP raised a good faith concern, but the comment was not a legal threat and to the extent it was perceived as one, it's been clarified as not being so. There's still a problem with civility, especially in some edits before the block last month. The edits since the block are not all perfect either, but they're a marked improvement, and presently more in line for a continued warning than a block. The issue of how to describe George Floyd's death is a content dispute and need not be resolved on this noticeboard.


Hmm, actually this is an article about a ] member, not a ] member. So does this even fall under the umbrella of Israel Palestine? Thanks in advance for the advice. –] <small>(])</small> 21:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
:Id like to suggest a warning to Stayfree to watch the tone in their posts, and to try seeking compromise rather than entrenching themselves. Not convinced on a topic ban - there's not enough disruption to warrant it. Other views welcome as always. -- ] (]) 13:20, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
* No, it doesn't. If it ''was'' (for example) a Hamas member, different admins appear to take different routes. Such articles ''should'' be deleted per ARBECR, but if it was a completely neutral well written article whose very existence wasn't a contentious one, I'd be tempted to let it slide. YMMV. ] 21:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
*:It might fall under ]. ] (]/]) 22:04, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
*::Hezbollah is a belligerent in the Arab–Israeli conflict, so, probably. However, per ] ¶&nbsp;A2, {{tqq|Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required.}} <span style="font-family:courier"> -- ]</span><sup class="nowrap">&#91;]]</sup> <small>(])</small> 23:42, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
*:::As long as the article is acceptable, this is what ] is for. Notify the creator about the ECR restrictions, template the article talk page, and call it good. - ] <sub>]</sub> 00:01, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
*::::Given that they were specifically when they created another Hezzbollah-related article in November, and were advised of ] at the same time, this seems like a deliberate breach. ] ] 00:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
*:::::In ''that'' case, it should probably be nuked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
*::::Administrators are never required to use their tools; no ignoring of rules is needed to simply not take action. ] (]) 00:42, 22 January 2025 (UTC)


== Archive bots ==
:: im not sure this should be discussed here, but thought it worth mentioning. ''to what extent do we allow a user to call explicitly state it was a murder, when it was not.'' i attempted to inform the person it was not ok, but then they started doubling down. instead wasting the time of everyone, i felt it would be nicer to inform the person of ''the offense'' and show a recent, public incident of what can happen if people or orgs continue to behave in that manner, instead of making a big deal about it elsewhere. i have brought up a few points on my own talk page directed at one of the admins, but i will also some here as this is obviously very important to alot of people and i think there is some misunderstandings on all fronts going on. ] (]) 16:43, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
{{atop
| result = This is not an issue that requires administrative attention. ] (]/]) 23:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
}}


Is there a way to have a bot archive articles on a page for you? I vaguely recall such a feature.-] <small>(] / ] / ] / ] / ])</small> 22:53, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
::: 1. the policy states "A discussion as to whether material is libelous is not a legal threat. Misplaced Pages's policy on defamation is to delete libelous material as soon as it is identified." this is more in line with what i was doing as i was discussing with the user that their actions could be taken a defamation in us civil courts and linked an article showing potential problems faced when engaging in said actions. '''should i just never mention defamation anymore in talk pages?'''
:{{u|TonyTheTiger}}. Maybe you are thinking of ]? –] <small>(])</small> 09:43, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

::: 2. the policy also states "For example, if you repeatedly assert that another editor's comments are "defamatory" or "libelous"" my statement regarding defamation was singular and was not mentioned repeatedly. that being said, i mentioned that we cannot call it a murder twice before the defamation comment. '''does this count as repeated?'''

::: thanks, ] (]) 16:43, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
::::As for point 1, there's a huge difference between "is this material potentially libelous?" and "don't libel the subject." The former is asking whether certain content is appropriate, the latter is accusing an editor of legal culpability. I would encourage you to avoid any mention of defamation or libel when discussing content.
::::Point 2 is meant more for repeat behavior, but some posts about defatmation/libel are egregious enough to get someone blocked '''immediately'''. It's better to just avoid those terms entirely, and stick to arguing based on Misplaced Pages policy such as ]. &mdash; <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:29, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
::::: {{u|HandThatFeeds}}, that makes sense for the most post, but the BLP policy doesnt really have clear guidance in this matter other than i should have just immediately deleted him comments.
:::::: {{tq|Note that, although the three-revert rule does not apply to such removals, what counts as exempt under BLP can be controversial. Editors who find themselves in edit wars over potentially defamatory material about living persons should consider raising the matter at the biographies of living persons noticeboard instead of relying on the exemption. Administrators may enforce the removal of clear BLP violations with page protection or by blocking the violator(s), even if they have been editing the article themselves or are in some other way involved. In less clear cases they should request the attention of an uninvolved administrator at Misplaced Pages:Administrators Noticeboard/Incidents. See Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons § Role of administrators.}}
::::: this is more so why i was bringing it up. i dont think anyone can deny calling someone a murderer is not libelous, and after multiple attempts to fix the problem politely, i made it ''more clear''. So should the libelous content be removed from the talk page? As a more personal question; after hindsight on this exact situation, what is your personal opinion on how i should have handled it? im personally bigger into discussion with the individual in question directly than make a big deal of it if at all possible. ] (]) 20:52, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
::::::So, without getting too far down a legal rabbit hole here, I just want to note that, in this instance, referring to Chauvin as a "murderer" is almost certainly not libelous in any common law jurisdiction. Please note, I don't think this makes it appropriate for a BLP, but courts are arbiters of legal culpability, not moral. People who watch the video can very reasonably reach the conclusion that they have witnessed a murder irrespective of ultimate legal responsibility. That being said, I think it would have made sense to seek an administrator's help here. Generally, except in extreme circumstances, I would recommend steering clear of legal language and citing ] instead, which is both broader and subject to less technicalities. Cheers. ] (]) 21:26, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::: ], I now understand why that should not be considered murder. However, in a content discussion on a talk page, I am allowed to argue my position to why I believed it was murder. The appropriate thing would be to point me to the policy stating that this is not considered murder on Misplaced Pages. Once again, I am allowed to argue why I believe this is murder. Automatically going to “you could be sued for this” is most definitely over the top. Especially since this was not on the page itself. I never even actually claimed that those who were charged with murder were “murderers”. Simply stating that he was murdered on a talk page in a content dispute is not enough to claim libel. A simple redirect to a policy is all that is needed. My recommendation for you, Stayfree76, is that you come to this page or the tea house in the future and ask someone else to give a warning if you believe one should be issued. After a few times, you will be able to see from the admins how to properly handle these situations. We’ve already addressed civility but once again, saying fix yourself is never the right way to put it. One way I have seen other admins and done myself is say “please stop doing (insert policy violation here). If you continue to violate (insert broken policy here), you will be reported at the admins noticeboard. ] (]) 21:30, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

:::::: {{re|Dumuzid}}, murder is not under common law in the United States. it falls under ]. an excerpt from that wiki is: {{tq|The validity of common law crimes varies at the state level. Although most states have abolished common law crimes, some have enacted "reception" statutes recognizing common law crimes when no similar statutory crime exists.}}. ] is "The body of law derived from judicial decisions, rather than from statutes or constitutions". The law itself varies by state which makes it difficult for outside parties to understand the complexity of the US legal system. for example, in my state of AZ, i can walk into a bank with a loaded AR 15 sling over my shoulder, but one state over in California, i cant even own it. ] (]) 21:51, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::::StayFree, this is what I mean by "legal rabbit holes." With all due respect, you have seized on a term I used and completely missed the gravamen of my comment. By "common law jurisdictions" I mean countries which share a legal tradition and broadly similar principles. The actual codification of murder is quite beside the point. I am well aware of the Federal nature of U.S. law. Again, because this is an opinion on obviously disclosed facts, and one which is reasonable to hold, it is not defamatory. On Misplaced Pages, it is almost always better to couch complaints in terms of BLP rather than any sort of controlling law. Cheers. ] (]) 22:22, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::::: {{re|Dumuzid}}, i highly suggest you read a regarding this topic. also per ], {{tq|Defamation law in the United States is much less plaintiff-friendly than its counterparts in European and the Commonwealth countries. A comprehensive discussion of what is and is not libel or slander under United States law is difficult, as the definition differs between different states and is further affected by federal law. Some states codify what constitutes slander and libel together, merging the concepts into a single defamation law. Civil defamation: Although laws vary by state, in the United States a defamation action typically requires that a plaintiff claiming defamation prove that the defendant: made a false and defamatory statement concerning the plaintiff; shared the statement with a third party (that is, somebody other than the person defamed by the statement); if the defamatory matter is of public concern, acted in a manner which amounted at least to negligence on the part of the defendant; and caused damages to the plaintiff.}} i feel like im beating a dead horse, but at the same time i think that many non US citizens just '''do not get''' how things work in the US and that ignorance causes many misunderstanding about the country as a whole and as a ''proud'' american i feel an obligation to ensure accuracy in representation regarding my home.] (])
:::::::::StayFree76, you make some odd assumptions. For the record, I am a U.S. citizen. You seem determined to not take my basic point. On Misplaced Pages, stick to BLP rather than defamation. Cheers. ] (]) 22:46, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::::::: i was not accusing anyone of not being a us citizen. it was a general statement that i see a widespread misunderstanding of US legalities and it is very detrimental the the overall project. all it takes in '''one''' person to attempt to litigate against wikimedia (for example) to cause '''significant changes''' to the way the site operates. especially given its a high profile case, think about how the people involved might feel when trying to continue their life one way or the other. (this could include attempting to get financial compensation for a destroyed image and inability to get a job). like i am just trying to protect[REDACTED] here. i am just some turd that will be dead before 2100, but[REDACTED] will hopefully be alive forever. ] (]) 22:55, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::::::::StayFree76, it's best if we let WMF's legal department handle that sort of thinking. My point is merely this: had you come here saying "this is a BLP violation, and it should stop," then I think you would have met with broad agreement. By saying "this is libel," you have decidedly muddied the waters and are skirting with contravening an important Misplaced Pages policy. Just food for thought. Cheers. ] (]) 23:02, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::::::::: tbh man, im with you, that is why i asked if i should have just removed it. next time i will remove the content and post the BLP removal template on their talk page instead of doing the process outside of a ''known'' way this is handled (using BLP without citing BLP). at the same time i am still partially concerned about people continuing, even here in this thread, and in talk pages where i started a discussion that you can not use the word murder. one of the editors touts 140,000 wiki edits and is actively on a campaign to get me topic banned. ] (])

{{od}}*Neither of these editors has enough experience to be arguing at that article. LBF and SF76, you both need to go find something else to edit for a good long while. Either of you could so easily end up blocked here. Kwitcherbitchin and go do something useful. ] (]) 23:26, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
:<small>Sorry, it's been a long lockdown and no end in sight ] (]) 23:34, 17 August 2020 (UTC)</small>
:: im not "bitchin" about anything. i got put here trying to do the right thing. arent we actively having a civil discussion as we speak about one of the wikis in question that i am unable to handle? ] (]) 23:38, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
:::], I don’t need enough experience to argue. I was having a debate over content. That’s what we’re here for. There’s no way that I could be easily blocked for seeing if the term murder is appropriate. ] (]) 23:42, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
::: ], do you think that stayfree76 should have deleted the parts of the talk page where I argued that it should be considered a murder? Is this really violating BLP enough to delete my comments? Thank you. ] (]) 00:30, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
::::] - See ] of Misplaced Pages's ]. If the person has not been convicted of murder, we're not supposed to use that word to describe the person or the events until a conviction has been secured. The neutral way to go about this is to simply describe the set of events that occurred without referring to those events as anything contentious (i.e. a "murder", "attack", or anything of that sort). Then, simply describe what the offending person (who will be the defendant in the trial) has been charged with, and leave it at that. Do your comments on the article's talk page amount to a BLP violation? BLP applies to all pages, including talk pages. Expressing your opinion and saying that you believe the events were murder wasn't a good idea. Now is it a violation where ''redaction was necessary''? That's debatable... I wouldn't have redacted those words from your comments, since if anything, it makes it harder for others to scrutinize the comments and respond accordingly... Again, this is debatable and I'm sure others will disagree. I'll remain neutral on that point. ]<sup><small><b>] ]</b></small></sup> 00:45, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
::::{{u|Lima Bean Farmer}}, calling it murder is basically calling Chauvin, a living person, a murderer. That would be libel, as he hasn't been convicted of murder. Yes, it is reasonable to delete libel in the case of living persons. It's not by any means an unreasonable move. ] (]) 00:48, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::{{replyto|Valereee|Oshwah|Lima Bean Farmer|Stayfree76}} as a suggestion, is this ongoing discussion about the application of BLP to particular content edits better suited to the article talkpage than here? There's several competing issues in this thread - if possible I'd like to separate the BLP/content one from NLT and civility so we can move the others towards a close. Disagreements welcome. :) -- ] (]) 00:57, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::: ill just note for record that i am bowing out (removing myself from the issue). if there is something that is needed from me i will be happy to oblige. :) ] (]) 01:04, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
::::::{{u|Euryalus}}, it's ridiculous that it's here, tbh. More evidence of not enough experience. ] (]) 01:02, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
::::::{{EC}} ] - I believe that this discussion regarding content should continue on the article's talk page, yes. ]<sup><small><b>] ]</b></small></sup> 01:14, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
*] is watchlisted by 150+ editors. There is no need for any new editor to start a thread at ANI over anything anyone says on that talk page; if it was that serious, some other editor with more experience would bring it to ANI, or, more likely, one of the many admins who watch the page would take action directly. Similarly, there is no need for any new editor to remove text from any other editor's posts on that page; if it was that serious, some other editor with more experience would remove it. New editors should focus on content, not on the conduct of other editors. Or, at least that's what people have told me :-) ]]] 01:12, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
{{abot}} {{abot}}


== Note of caution on attacks on Misplaced Pages's neutrality. ==
== Dreamy Jazz appointed full clerk ==
{{atop|1=We know to keep an eye out for "neturality police" IPs/new editors. Speculation on anything more should be left to the WMF per ] (and, indeed, ]). - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:16, 22 January 2025 (UTC)}}

As observed , Musk and others now in positions with Trump's admin are calling out Misplaced Pages's "lack of neutrality". At best they are current only calling for trying to defund it, but given a the craziness of the last 48hrs alone, I would not be surprised to see new or IP editors with strong conservative ideals trying to "fix" the neutrality problem. Nothing we haven't seen before but now that these people have a megaphone to state this, the quantity could become elevated.<span id="Masem:1737504211892:WikipediaFTTCLNAdministrators&apos;_noticeboard" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;] (]) 00:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)</span>
The Arbitration Committee is pleased to announce that {{user|Dreamy Jazz}} has been appointed a full clerk, effective immediately, concluding Dreamy Jazz's successful traineeship.
:Do they mean anything by "defund" other than calling for people to stop donating (and haha, good luck with that one, these attacks seem to have resulted in the opposite)? Can Elon and Trump actually try and freeze the Foundation's assets or anything like that? ]]<sup>]</sup> 00:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

::Likely not within a legal framework that exists right now... but they could, for example, pressure Congress to pass a new law, or they could attempt to eliminate the safe harbor protections that the WMF (among other organizations) are given from copyright violations, which would allow people to sue for copyvios being displayed at all, no matter how quickly they're removed. And even if they don't try to make it sound legal, they could always just throw another executive order at the wall and see if it sticks - possibly as part of a "burst" like he did within the first 24 hours of his term. This strategy isn't anything new - trying to overload organizations'/lawyers' capabilities to sue to block those orders, and the courts' ability to handle those suits, during which time they can do what they want. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 00:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
The arbitration clerk team is often in need of new members, and any editor who would like to join the clerk team is welcome to apply by e-mail to {{clerks-l}}.
:::There is a proposed bill going around that would allow non profits to be stripped of that status should they be considered a terrorist org or support terrorism. While what we do is clearly not that, in this new administration, anything goes. However all that is a WMF problem and I assume they are ready to fight.<br style="margin-bottom:0.5em"/>My caution here is that we might see new and IP see these calls as dogwhistles to attack WP in other ways, which we as admin and involved editors can take a ton against.<span id="Masem:1737506377400:WikipediaFTTCLNAdministrators&apos;_noticeboard" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;] (]) 00:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC)</span>

::::If the US decides to strip WMF's status then, a total and global outrage might happen. ] (]) 00:50, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
For the Arbitration Committee, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 05:08, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
:::{{tq|they could attempt to eliminate the safe harbor protections that the WMF (among other organizations) are given from copyright violations}} Elon Musk definitely doesn't want to be liable every time someone posts a copyright violating image on Twitter, so I doubt that will happen. ] (]/]) 00:49, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
: Discuss this at: ''']'''<!-- ] (]) 05:08, 16 August 2020 (UTC) --><!--Template:hes-->
::::I'd say that we probably shouldn't give them ] for how to attack us. Contrary to what some believe, these are very public noticeboards that are readable to anyone on the Internet. ] ] 01:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

== KHive ==
*{{article|KHive}}
Content relating to first use of hashtag by Eric Chavous sourced to Vox has been removed without any meaningful reason multiple times. I last restored it with edit. That was my second restoration, another one would have been an edit war so I'm posting here. A campaign on Twitter seems to be responsible for it; some other person claims to have started this hashtag but only source seems to be their own blog. That person canvassed on Twitter and several responded with edits on the page. So, this article should be checked and perhaps locked. ] (]) 06:32, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
: I have semi-protected the article earlier today for three days.--] (]) 10:14, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

== 2020 Beirut explosions ==

Hi. Please can someone look at closing ] that's been open for a while now? For transparency, I did vote in it myself. Thanks. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 09:00, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
::I can close it ] (]) 20:20, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
:::{{u|Lugnuts}}, thanks for making the request, and {{u|Nosebagbear}}, thanks for doing a solid close. If I could be permitted to tag onto this post a bit, the fact that a big banner notice was cluttering that page for 11 days during a very high-traffic period over what is really a pretty small question (a single letter) of interest only to editors (not ]) is an issue. It's another example of why we ought to revamp {{tl|Title notice}}, ideally turning it into something more like the {{tl|Move topicon}} that {{u|Netoholic}} proposed and {{u|Wugapodes}} coded. (I believe a little technical help is needed to ensure proper mobile display, etc.; after that it'll be ready to put forward for adoption.) <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>]</sup> 02:27, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

::Thanks both. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 06:28, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

== Backlog at ] ==

] is now chronically backlogged at a very high level. Some fresh eyes would be appreciated - for a quarter of the cases I'm the blocking admin. ] 09:49, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
:{{u|MER-C}}, I do understand that there are probably many admins who work regularly on addressing these issues and they may fully understand how the page is organized, but let me share my impressions as a first time visitor to that page.
:
:I see a notice that there is a backlog which is fine. I see some introductory sentences which seem fine. that I see a collapse section of information for administrators which I will obviously want to read but let me check out the rest of the page first.
:
:I see a section for UTRS appeals. With a nicely organized table. I haven't totally figured out what the status column means. My guess is that "open" means that hasn't yet been touched, "admin" means the last response in the thread is from an admin but how does that differ from "awaiting reply". In my opinion, the entries are obvious such as timestamps they don't need an explanation key but if they aren't obvious should be an explanation key. (I thought maybe this would be explained in the collapsed administrator section but no)
:
:There is a section labeled "summary". This threw me. Given the prior section covering UTRS, I thought it would be followed by a section for non UTRS blocks. I still think that might be the case but the section title is misleading. I spot check some entries in the UTRS section and don't see them in the summary section so I think I'm right but curious wording.
:
:Presumably, the summary section is a summary table related to the entries in the category "requests for unblock" which do not inlcude UTRS requests.
:
:There is a portion of the table that's unshaded and a portion of the table that's shaded. Presumably the distinction is important, but it's not identified. They appear to be sorted in reverse chronological order based upon request time. Are all of these open? I clicked on the first one and it looks like it's actively being worked on.
:
:Is there some priority for which ones need attention?
:
:Again, I recognize that regulars probably know this but if you're looking for new eyes, these new eyes aren't clear what's going on. ]] 16:37, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

::I myself don't know why the table has multiple shadings. {{ping|AmandaNP}} who is responsible for both of those tables. ] 17:03, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
:{{u|MER-C}}, Well, this is embarrassing. I thought I'd try to respond to one of the UTRS entries, but I clicked on a button to see what it would do (assuming incorrectly that if I did something wrong I could undo it). I still don't know what the button did but the appeal is now marked "This appeal is closed and no further action can be taken."
:That wasn't my intention. It is Appeal number: #33061 how do I undo my action?
:My intended response: Let them know they were caught in a range block, which wasn't directed at them personally. I see they wish to edit a page with which they probably have a conflict of interest so I wanted to share with them the conflict of interest page, then urge them to register an account and offer to help them. I didn't see a way to start a discussion with the editor. Is there a UTRS manual?]] 17:13, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
:: It might be better to stick to on-wiki stuff at first. It will likely be less confusing. The "summary" table (which has been renamed to be more clear) is supposed to be helpful, but you can just ignore it if you find it confusing. The appeals are color-coded, I think, based on the unblock template used ({{tl|unblock}} for standard unblock requests, {{tl|unblock-un}} for username change requests, etc). What I did before getting involved in the unblock process was shadow a few cases. I looked at the unblock request, decided on a course of action or response, and waited to see what the responding admin did. Once I was satisfied that my instincts were not wildly off from current practice, I started responding to them. Certain types of blocks tend to languish for a long time. Sock puppetry blocks and undisclosed paid editing require some detective work, or at least some time spent reviewing evidence to make sure that it's solid. Few admins are willing to deal with a dramamonger, so drama-heavy blocks often languish in the queue, too. Another problem that I've seen is that someone will be smart enough to say all the right things, but the person is obviously incompatible with Misplaced Pages. There is a psychological barrier to outright telling this to someone. ] (]) 19:07, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
:::{{u|NinjaRobotPirate}}, Thanks, I'm fine with starting with the on-wiki items, and will consider UTRS later. I liked your shadow suggestion - I've done something similar in other contexts (copyright, OTRS) and I'll try it here. ]] 18:13, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

== Arbitration motion regarding ''Genetically modified organisms'' ==

The Arbitration Committee has resolved by ] that:

<blockquote>Remedy 2 ("1RR imposed") of '']'' is amended to read as follows:

{{ivmbox|1=Editors are prohibited from making more than one revert per page per day on any page relating to genetically modified organisms, commercially produced agricultural chemicals and the companies that produce them, broadly construed and subject to the usual exemptions.}}</blockquote>

The purpose of the amendment was to match the scope of the existing 1RR remedy and the discretionary sanctions remedy.

For the Arbitration Committee, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 16:44, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
: Discuss this at: ''']'''<!-- ] (]) 16:44, 16 August 2020 (UTC) --><!--Template:hes-->

== policy on women and children killed by a spouse/parent ==
{{archivetop|Wrong venue. Potential changes to policy are discussed at the ] so try asking there.<br />&nbsp;—&nbsp;] ] 19:58, 16 August 2020 (UTC)}}
Hi
This has been raised with regard to ] who was murdered by her estranged husband. Should Misplaced Pages have her referred to in the article as "Hannah Baxter", the name used in the Murdoch tabloids? There seems to be a growing idea in society that wives and children murdered by their husband and father should *not* be referred to by his surname because he murdered them. ] (]) 19:54, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
{{archivebottom}}

== Call for close re mention of COVID-19 pandemic in the lead at ] ==

] was listed at ANRFC a little over two weeks ago, following months of contentious and pretty messy debate at ]. Myself and several others at ANRFC have highlighted the strong need for an experienced closer to come in and put a cap on the spiraling discussion, but no one has stepped up yet, so I'm escalating to the main noticeboard here. Is anyone willing to take this on?

(As always with posts of this sort, everyone here is reminded to please keep your comments to meta-discussion about the process of the close only. Comments arguing for or against possible outcomes of the close should be collapsed.) <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>]</sup> 01:11, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

:{{U|Sdkb}}: That's not an ], nor apparently was it ever one, so it lacks any sort of officialness or need for any sort of official close (and it shouldn't be listed at ANRFC, nor should it be DNAUed). There is however an RfC on the subject on that talkpage, which was opened August 5, so that has a few more weeks to run: ]. -- ] (]) 07:53, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
::{{u|Softlavender}}, the call for a close is a call to close the entire group of discussions, which includes both the RfCs and the non-RfCs. They're all on the same topic, just framed differently, so it wouldn't make any sense to try to close them separately. Calls for a formal close existed even before the launch of the currently open RfC, which is just another in a long series of attempts to try to frame things in a way that actually produces an outcome. No one has !voted on the RfC in the past week, which for Donald Trump's page is about as strong an indicator of exhaustion as you could ever find. I think most participants on all sides agree that it's long past due for a close, and that it would not be beneficial to let it run for a few more weeks. The closer will be able to draw from about 10 different massive discussions going back months, so there's zero question that there has been ample opportunity for participation. <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>]</sup> 07:56, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
:::That's not how things work on Misplaced Pages. Unless something is an RfC, it's just a discussion thread on a talkpage and has no site-wide input or official weight. That's why there have been so many threads on that page without resolution. Now that there is an actual RfC (which is the only way to really resolve things that have been discussed endlessly without RfC and without resolution), the matter must wait until the RfC has run for at least a month. Anything that really needs to be officially resolved with an administrator's binding close must be done via RfC (otherwise, someone will just open yet another thread, or open an RfC). ] (]) 08:30, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
::::{{u|Softlavender}}, I'm <s>pretty</s><sup>update: I just checked and confirmed</sup> sure at least one of the previous discussions was an RfC, and it's not as though the current one is better formulated or has wider participation than the previous ones. It's a continuation of the sprawling mess, not much more or less definitive than the sprawling mess that came before it. If you think further discussion is somehow needed, fine, although I think you'd be very strained to make that argument. But if your view is just that we need to stick to the letter of the ] because those are The Rules™, then I'd suggest re-reading ], which I hope is still alive enough that we're capable of cutting off RfCs that have very clearly gone long past the point of usefulness. <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>]</sup> 09:02, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::It doesn't sound to me like you understand what an ] is and don't even want to check and see if there have been any (if there have been, the word RFC will be in the thread title). If there was a previous RfC, with an official close, then that is a binding decision and the decision will be implemented as official. The discussion you are talking about is merely a non-official article-talk discussion between people who have that page on their watch list, to see if they can come to a consensus. Since consensus seems unclear (namely, you're asking for someone to close it), that indicates that there is not yet a clear enough consensus to be implemented. If you want an official administrative close on something, propose it in an ], with a clear opening statement that people can !vote support or oppose on. Otherwise, all you've got is a meandering mess that someone is going to contest the details of the minute it is acted upon. ] is for issues such as this that have had extensive discussions without success. They get site-wide input, last one month, and get official closes. That's why we have them. ] (]) 09:16, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
::::::{{u|Softlavender}}, if you're going to link WP:RFC, then note ], which states pretty clearly {{tq|There is no required minimum or maximum duration}}. I agree with the spirit of your point that RfCs are often a useful tool for formalizing messy discussions, but your comments do not give me the impression that you are assessing the situation here on its own terms rather than blindly adhering to your understanding of the rules. We've both made our point; let's wait for some others here to weigh in now. <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>]</sup> 09:49, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*Softlander is correct. This should have been done as a proper RFC. As is, it can only establish a local consensus, not a global consensus, and is likely to be contested as soon as it closes. Issues this large aren't typically solved with local discussions only, and require a real RFC with input outside of that talk page. A piecemeal approach isn't a solution. ] - ] 10:15, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*:{{u|Dennis Brown}}, {{tq|as is}}? There have been multiple tagged RfCs, none as perfectly formulated as might be hoped, but the discussion has long since run its course. We're here now since it's ready for a close. I can't do it myself since I !voted in one of the earlier discussions, but please, take the hint. We would not be coming here if there were not a reasonably clear consensus that has emerged and just needs an authoritative stamp from someone uninvolved. <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>]</sup> 11:12, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*::Then by all means, keeping having discussion after discussion and dragging it to AN. That is obviously a better solution, right? It is much easier for an admin to enforce the outcome of a real RFC. Disagree all you want, but it rather speaks for itself, that for contentious issues that rise to this level, a real RFC that is properly crafted is what you want. ] - ] 01:00, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
:::No she is not right. Discussions do not need to follow a formal RfC process. Unstructured discussions very much benefit from being closed by uninvolved editors. I'm not sure what "global consensus" has to do with a specific content proposal for the lead a specific article. - ]] 00:52, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
*Softlavender is absolutely incorrect that {{tq|the matter must wait until the RfC has run for at least a month.}} If RfCs ''usually'' run for 30 days, it's because (1) many editors misinterpret the time of automatic de-listing as a recommended duration, and (2) most of those who don't would rather let it run for the full 30 than press the point. There is certainly nothing in written guidance supporting a 30-day rule-of-thumb, and RfCs may close in a few days or a few months depending on the circumstances. Furthermore, per ], RfCs require a close no more than any discussion does. &#8213;]&nbsp;] 11:06, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*I requested the presently active ] 12 days ago. Perhaps redundant with the previous extensive discussions, but I thought it worthwhile to have a specific, formal RfC on the consensus text, given the way the process seems to have been manipulated for delay. There has not been really any opposition to the proposal, other than the universal recommendation to drop my ill-advised "weasel" words, in what I thought would be a compromise to soften the language. The RfC consensus so far has been overwhelming, other than those comments that deviate from the process (mistakenly seeing the RfC as a reopening of the issue, not following directions, etc.). So overwhelming that it seemed to me we could close the RfC by mutual agreement, as is possible according to the rules (though there have been no takers for that avenue). Something is broken/being exploited by Misplaced Pages processes if it takes 5 months to devise a simple sentence for the lead. I've thought about bringing the issue here already, so I support this attention. There is ]: "...when an article lacks vital content, that content should be added as quickly as possible." The text in question concerns Donald Trump and his response to pandemic...speaking of vital content. Across all the political articles, I believe this problem is likely universal just now - it is a political strategy to jam up the process. Some broader, objective strategy to prevent discussions such as this from going on endlessly (or until after the election...) is likely in order. ] (]) 11:33, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

{{od}}We had a perfectly good approximation of the consensus that was repeatedly removed and disparaged in obstinate obstructive edits by a small number of editors. The consensus was accurately reflected thanks to the work of {{ping|MrX|Neutrality|Starship.paint}} and others. It just needs to go back in the article with a warning to others to use the talk page to promote and gather consensus for any improved version. WP is not a beaurocracy. One of the obstructive editors has already been TBANned. If anyone takes on the task of compiling the evidence, we have other TBAN candidates as well. There has been consensus for ''something'' in the lead for several months. Insistent quibbling about the perfect language, with excessive numbers of proposals, alternatives, and bludgeons mostly ignoring cited RS references, serves only to enable a claim of "no consensus". That is the stuff of bans. If any Admin chooses to review the entire history of this discussion, we'd see several warnings at the very least. ]] 18:24, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

'''No reason to close no-RFC discussion''' Unless the discussion has turned disruptive there is no reason to close, presumably with a summary, a non-RfC discussion. This can actually be problematic if the closing gives the appearance of an actual RfC that got wider community input vs a discussion among the article locals only. If the discussion is done let it auto archive. ] (]) 15:05, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
:Of course there's a reason. Numerous editors have spent considerable time availing themselves of ] and you think they should be left hanging? This is exactly the type of ] that contributes to battleground editing. It's truly unhelpful. - ]] 17:19, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
::Are you suggesting the discussion should be closed only (gray box, no further comments) or that an uninvolved editor should try to summarize the discussion as would be done with a RfC closing? If the former, why? If the latter then what authority does that discussion have beyond current, local consensus? What would stop someone from starting a RfC to discuss the same issue the day after this closing? As the discussion (presumably) didn't request wider input, as Dennis Brown mentioned, it would only represent a consensus of the current, local editors. A RfC, drawing in uninvolved editors would almost certainly superseded the local discussion and wouldn't be forum shopping. Again, what is to be gained by closing a local discussion that isn't a RfC? ] (]) 17:36, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

== Close challenge ==
{{archive top|1=There is '''consensus that the RfC should be reopened and reclosed by an administrator.''' I will accordingly reopen it. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 18:10, 18 August 2020 (UTC)}}
At ] there has been considerable push-back against the conclusions of a NAC. There is also a fight going on on the article talk page about the meaning of the close. I would like to request that MrX voluntarily withdraw the NAC and that <s>a panel of uninvolved administrators</s> an uninvolved administrator or a panel of uninvolved administrators evaluate the RfC. If MrX is not willing to do that, I would like to request a closure review.

See ] and ]. --] (]) 11:06, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' As the participant of the RfC, I saw no problem with the original closure, though I had voted for the outright removal of the content in question. While there a number of "support" arguments, there were enough editors who still didnt supported the inclusion of the term ''pseudoscience'' or ''pseudoscientific'' on the "opening sentence" (the RfC question) but the first paragraph. That said, the "no consensus" close was accurate. ] (]) 11:33, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
* (also participated) I think a review or do-over might be appropriate. The "no consensus" close seems correct to me, but then the closer went and invalidated that with a postscript . Everyone's allowed second thoughts, but in a hotly contested RfC closure they don't help. Currently we are back to heavy polemics (involving things like "no consensus for inclusion doesn't mean it can't be included" by the OP...). Better to have this confidently assessed once and for all. --<span style="font-family:Courier">]</span> <small>(] · ])</small> 13:34, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*As I expressed on my talk page, I believe my close of the RfC was proper in all respects. After carefully considering the "pushback" from the involved parties, and after re-reviewing the comments made in the RfC, I am not inclined to withdraw my close. Per ], a close review can occur, and it should include "a concrete description of how you believe the close was an inappropriate or unreasonable distillation of the discussion." I am happy to answer questions about how I arrived at my assessment of consensus. Please ping me if I am needed. - ]] 14:02, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Endorse''' - Range of views were offered but it was ultimately unclear that which view gained the clear ] among dozens of participants. Since a number of issues were raised about every particular set of argument, I consider this to be a valid close. ] (]) 14:36, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Overturn and re-close''' <del>by admin</del> - WP:BADNAC #2 applies here. FWIW, I see many oppose !votes that should be discounted. For example, all of those arguing "no sources support 'pseudoscience'" should be tossed in light of the many sources presented (mostly by Guy Macon) supporting usage of that term. All the oppose !votes citing WP:LABEL that don't discuss the very specific part of LABEL discussing "pseudoscience" should be tossed as not policy based. Those oppose !votes citing fringe works (one of them cites the back cover of a fringe work, lol) should also be tossed as not reality based. There is at least one blocked sock whose !vote should be tossed. The closing statement did not address any of this. Once you discount all the no-policy-basis or falsely-claiming-no-sources-exist oppose !votes, I see consensus for inclusion in the first sentence. Barring that, I certainly see consensus for inclusion in the lead. Either way, this consensus is complex and should be assessed <del>by an editor who has been vetted by the community for their ability to assess consensus: an admin</del> <ins>more thoroughly</ins>. PS: I originally accidentally posted this to X's talk page, where he pointed out that BADNAC isn't policy and hasn't been vetted by the community (true) and that my !vote here didn't address discounting of support votes (also true). There are some support !votes that should be discounted, but in my view not nearly as many. However, that's ultimately up to the closer. This close didn't address weighing of support or oppose !votes; <del>an admin may still close this as no consensus, but at least it'll be closed as no consensus by someone vetted by the community to address consensus</del>. ]]] 15:33, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*:As I mentioned on my talk page, I dispute that BADNAC applies to this case, but more importantly, it's not policy. From the top of ]: '''"This page is not one of Misplaced Pages's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community."''' Also, your analysis of the RfC omits any concern about supporters !votes which should be discounted, including the several examples of circular reasoning, and at least six !votes without any reasoning whatsoever. - ]] 15:52, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*: is where BADNAC#2 was added. There was no discussion on ], but there was consensus that ] is not a guideline. - ]] 16:04, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*:: BADNAC is part of ], "an explanatory supplement to the Misplaced Pages:Closing discussions page". It documents commonly observed conventions and should not be dismissed simply because the closer thinks they know better. The convention documented is "{{tq|The outcome is a close call (especially where there are several valid outcomes) or likely to be controversial. Such closes are better left to an administrator.}}" The RfC was called by an AE admin to settle a dispute and was controversial. In those circumstances, it required more skill in closing than was demonstrated by a non-admin, and I've outlined the reasons below. --] (]) 16:36, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*:::I've already shown that it's not a policy or a guideline, and that BADNAC#2 was added by one (admin) editor without any discussion or consensus. I dispute that it's a "commonly observed convention" or that it applies to this situation. - ]] 17:10, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*:::Rexx, it sounds as if you are deprecating MrX's skill ''because'' he is not an Admin? I think his skill, experience, and judgment exceeds that of most Admins. Your comment seems gratuitous and baiting.]] 01:56, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
*:::: Every piece of text on Misplaced Pages is ''added'' by one editor. {{u|Spartaz}} needed no prior consensus to make an edit, and ] represent consensus. That consensus has stood for four years. If you don't believe BADNAC#2 is a correct documentation of our accepted practices, try removing it and see how far that gets you. No matter how much you dispute it, it is a commonly observed convention, and it does apply here. --] (]) 18:39, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*:::::The text (not the consensus) stood for years because it's not part of policy so no one bothered to remove it. It simply does not have community wide consensus. All the bloviating in the world doesn't change that. If you want it to be a policy or a guideline, you can start an RfC and advertise it on ]. - ]] 00:46, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
*:On further reflection, I've struck the "by admin" part of my !vote. I agree with Ivan's point below that there are non-admins who could have closed this and who still could, or a panel that might have some admins and some non-admins. I don't have a strong feeling about who should close this or how many closers, but I do think the current close should be overturned. ]]] 17:07, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Overturn and re-close by admin''' Three issues make me belive that this should be overturned. First per BADNAC 2, a no consensus that then needed to be updated is almost definitionally close, so is not eligble for NAC. Also, anything under discrestionary sanctions should be assumed to be controversial and not eligble. Second, MrX did not show any evaluation of strenght of arguments or even any evidence that they had any understanding of the arguments given. Third, MrX immediatly started participants when his judgment was called into question and when it was pointed out deficincies in his analysis.] (]) 15:44, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
* The close was '''inappropriate''' and should be overturned. {{u|MrX}} is not an admin, but is an experienced closer, yet {{they|MrX}} failed to discern an important theme that became apparent in the discussion and survey, and also failed to sufficiently weight the strengths of the supporting !votes and the weaknesses of the opposing !votes. {{pb}} The RfC came about because of a dispute about where the word "pseudoscientific" should be placed in the lead. It was triggered by an ] on 1 July 2020 and resulted in article protection and a complaint raised at ] under the discretionary sanctions relating to ]. {{u|El C}}, who regularly contributes at AE, consequently started the RfC in question "to resolve this dispute". {{u|MrX}} failed to grasp the significance of the RfC in settling a dispute and merely focused on the bald question "should there be mention of the word pseudoscience (or pseudoscientific) in the opening sentence?". I contend that MrX should have taken note of the considerable support, rooted in policy, for the proposition that pseudoscience should be mentioned in the opening ''paragraph'' of Ayurveda. {{pb}} It has been abundantly clear from long-standing consensus and prior debate ], ] that Ayurveda is a pseudoscience. The article is in the ] and its talk page bears the pseudoscience DS warning. MrX, however, chose to ignore that context stating . Closers are ''required'' to take context into account. {{pb}} As Ayurveda is undoubtedly a pseudoscience, the policies that apply are ], ], ], ], ], and ]{{snd}} and the support arguments strongly leant on them. Several of the opposers only attacked the mention of pseudoscience at all. These cannot be compliant with Misplaced Pages policy and should have been discounted. Several of the !votes of the opposers relied on ], effectively denying that sources used in the article for a considerable time were reliable. No evidence such as RSN reports was brought forward to support those denials. Many of the opposers used arguments based on faulty understanding of policies like ] (which ''requires'' pseudoscientific topics to be described as such), and their arguments were clearly rebutted{{snd}} see Yoonadue's oppose for an obvious example. MrX failed to recognise sufficiently the strength of the support arguments and the weakness of the oppose arguments. {{pb}} In raw numbers there were 63 !votes: 21 supporting inclusion in the first sentence, 15 supporting inclusion in the first paragraph, 16 opposing (presumably inclusion in the first sentence), 10 opposing inclusion anywhere in the lead, and 1 neutral (anywhere in the lead but attributed). I'll be happy to list names on request. None of those supporting inclusion in the first sentence opposed inclusion in the first paragraph. That shows 36 in favour of inclusion in the first paragraph, with strong policy reasons for that. Whereas, 10 of the oppose !votes were arguing against policy, ]/] and long-standing consensus, and should have been discounted. MrX failed to discern the strength of opinion in favour of inclusion in the first paragraph. {{pb}} Most importantly, the close produced no resolution to the underlying dispute, despite that being the purpose of the RfC. Any closer should have been looking carefully for consensus that would bring the dispute to a close: the finding of consensus for inclusion in the first paragraph would have performed that job, and missing that was a deficit in the close. It would be patently ludicrous to have re-run the RfC just to ask the question "''should there be mention of the word pseudoscience (or pseudoscientific) in the opening paragraph?''" when we already have an affirmative answer to that in the current RfC. --] (]) 16:25, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
* '''Keep the close as is''' Mr. X did fine on it. The original question was:
: ''Should there be mention of the word pseudoscience (or pseudoscientific) in the opening sentence''
: On the page there are votes to:
::Include - no preference where<br>Support in the lead sentence (which is what the question is asking )
::Oppose
::Oppose for the lead
: Mr. X did a great job in evaluating the consensus for the question. No, it wasn't an easy close, and no matter who did it, someone wasn't going to be happy, but that's no reason to overturn. Consensus is accurately reflected for the question being asked. ]] 16:28, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*: Please observe ]: your formatting broke the thread for screen reader users.
*::Fixed it. --] (]) 16:59, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*: MrX did not a do a great job, because a closer of an RfC should be looking for consensus beyond the simple question asked. It's a Request for ''Comments'', not a Request for ''Votes'', and it is expected that a closer evaluates the whole of the debate and looks for whatever consensus could be found. In this case, an RfC on a controversial subject, created to settle a dispute, the failure to discern the strength of support for inclusion ''somewhere'' in the first paragraph was a fatal flaw. On challenge, he admitted that he saw "a weak consensus to include pseudoscience in the lead", and yet the arguments and numbers do not show that at all (other than the strong support for inclusion in the opening paragraph, which is naturally part of the lead). Almost nobody argued for inclusion just in the lead, and drawing that conclusion demonstrates the weakness of the original close. --] (]) 16:50, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Overturn and re-close by admin''' I think this was a procedurally bad close. To claim a consensus we must show that and/or the balance of the quality of arguments clearly favors one side or, if the arguments are of equal weight, that we have a majority sufficient to make a claim of consensus clear via a head count. By the numbers this looks like a near 50/50 split with over 60 editors participating. The closing comments make no mention of the merits of arguments presented by either side so consensus can't be evaluated based on weight of the arguments. Additionally, the closing editor reversed their original close without explanation. All of this leaves open the appearance of a super vote. For these reasons, the controversial nature of the subject matter, and the fact that the 60+ participants should be given the respect of a clearly worded closing argument, I support overturning and requesting an admin-close. Note: I have no prior involvement in this topic. ] (]) 16:29, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*:Closing statements do not have to explain every detail of the assessment, as long as the closer is willing to explain their reasoning when asked. I have done that. - ]] 00:37, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
*::If then, as you claim, your close was proper in all respects, do you have a theory as to why the comments on this page are running 2:1 against you? If your closing comments are as good as you claim they are, why not voluntarily step aside, watch as an experienced admin makes closing comments that are pretty much identical to yours, then tell us all "I told you so"?
:::There once was a drunk driver who was driving the wrong way on the freeway. Upon hearing on the radio (over the honking horns) that there was a drunk driver who was driving the wrong way on the freeway, he peered through his windshield, noticed all of the headlights heading toward him, and exclaimed "My God! There are DOZENS of them!!" --] (]) 05:39, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
::::{{reply|Guy Macon}} Yeah, :) <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 06:16, 18 August 2020 (UTC)</small>
::::{{reply|Guy Macon}} I don't need a theory—it's pretty obvious that a brigade of editors involved in the RfC who didn't like the outcome came here to have it overturned. That's not how this process is supposed to work. If it's allowed to work this way, it will be to the detriment to the integrity of the consensus process. - ]] 12:54, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::Can you think of anything -- anything at all -- that might explain so many people disagreeing with you other than "I am right and they are all wrong"? The promotion to brigadier was nice, though. Much better than by present position of henchman. --] (])
::::::I answered your question in my previous comment. I've already said that I don't have an opinion about Ayurveda. It doesn't register on my radar of things I care about. I never used it; I've never read about it (other than the lead of the Misplaced Pages article and the talk page); I've never discussed it with anyone; and I don't care about it anymore than I do homeopathy or crystal healing. You seem to think that it's fine to overturn a close by a majority vote of editors involved in the RfC. I don't. - ]] 13:53, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Overturn''' largely per Levivich's evidence that MrX did not adequately evaluate the discussion, particularly in light of many obviously incorrect arguments which were not discounted, and per RexxS' detailed analysis here that the RfC was not about ''whether or not'' to describe Ayurveda as pseudoscience but about ''how to do so''. Also, when a closer starts arguing about what pages are and are not best practice or established community expectations, they should take a break from closing things: it's up to the ''participants'' to bring those arguments; once you start bringing your own you're ]. Given the controversial nature of this topic I support the suggestion to nominate a panel to close, though I normally dislike closing panels. ] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 16:51, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*:Also: I couldn't care less if closers are admins or not: it's the quality of the close that matters, not the closer's choice of ]. There are just so many excellent non-admins perfectly capable of analyzing and closing this sort of discussion. ] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>) 16:53, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*:I'm not sure how you arrived at the idea that I "supervoted" {{u|Ivanvector}}. Are you suggesting that I had a preferred outcome and tilted the scales in that direction? There is no misunderstanding on my part about what the purpose of the RfC was. I made no claim or implication that it was to determine if Ayurveda is pseudoscience. - ]] 17:22, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*:: That's the problem in a nutshell, MrX. The fact that Ayurveda is a pseudoscience is a settled issue here and in mainstream scientific opinion. By failing to start from that context, you were unable to weigh the strengths of the policies quoted. If Ayurveda is a pseudoscience, then ] absolutely paramount; if not it's irrelevant. By ignoring the current context, your close fell foul of the pitfall underpinning ]. --] (]) 19:08, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*:::No, that is not how the process works. We do no require closers to have intimate knowledge of a subject in order to close an RfC. I also never said that I "ignored the current context". This will make about the fourth time that you have invented things that I supposedly said that I didn't actually say. You should stop that. - ]] 00:37, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
*::::Without expressing an opinion on whether you did or did not ignore the context, ignoring the context is about something that you didn't do but should have. You saying nothing in the closing comments about, in the words of RexxS, "The fact that Ayurveda is a pseudoscience is a settled issue here and in mainstream scientific opinion" is an easily verifiable fact. Ayurveda being a pseudoscience is an established fact. The reason why I am neither agreeing or disagreeing with RexxS about his "ignored the current context" claim is that I have yet to see a compelling argument that you were supposed to do so. --] (]) 01:45, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
*:::::There is no requirement to write a detailed summary of every argument in the RfC as you seem to think. If, as you claim, Ayurveda is a "settled issue" and "an easily verifiable fact", why would that need to be summarized in the lead anyway? More importantly, someone closing an RfC should not seek out information that is not referenced in the RfC to form their own conclusion. The task of the RfC closer is to summarize the discussion, not right great wrongs or introduce new information. For all the zeal of the editors supporting adding 'pseudoscience' to the lead, a significant number of their argument were weak. Would it help if I listed the names of editors who simply voted, with a separate list of editors who made circular comments like {{tq|"Support mentioning pseudoscientific or pseudoscience in the first sentence, considering that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia."}} or {{tq|"Support I think that this question should also be asked for the Traditional Chinese Medicine article."}}?
::::::We could also examine the false claim that there were ]s who opposed the RfC question. My request to point out the SPAs went unanswered. Or perhaps lwe can look at the claim of canvassing based on two offsite posts that predate the RfC. A closer also has to examine claims like {{tq|"It is a fact that this article has been included as part of the scope of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience for several years without challenge. {{hl|That settles the question of whether ArbCom regards the subject as pseudoscience.}}"}} Note that my suggestion to seek clarification (really, verification) on this from ] went unanswered. Finally, it's highly noteworthy that most of the people insisting that the RfC close be overturned are ]. So much so in your case, that you boldly added pseudoscience to the lead after a determination that there was non consensus to do so! You have been here a while, so I'm pretty sure you're familiar with ] bullet 2. - ]] 12:46, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
*Just a note on closing panels: they generally only exist to rubber stamp a long analysis that ends with “no consensus”. I haven’t read this discussion and don’t plan on contributing substantively to the review, but I’ve come to the conclusion that closing panels are virtually never appropriate. If people want that; just overturn to no consensus here and be done with it. That will achieve the same outcome in the end and save time. ] (]) 16:59, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*: The last panel close I'm aware of was ] and {{u|Wugapodes}} and {{u|Ymblanter}} went to considerable lengths to extract all of the salient discussion points from the debate, and then render a verdict on all of the consensuses that they could divine. It was not a rubber stamp, nor did it end with "no consensus", so that does contradict your assertions. "Overturn to no consensus" is a flip comment on a topic that has consumed many hours of many Wikipedians' time. As its purpose was to settle a dispute that went to AE, that outcome would actually be a complete waste of time, because the underlying disagreements would remain, and another RfC would be needed to arrive at the conclusion that is apparent from the present debate. --] (]) 19:24, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*::] was a panel close that found consensus, following an overturned individual "no consensus" close. ] was another recent panel close that ended with a finding of consensus. ]]] 19:44, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*:::All of the examples given above support my claims that it’s simple a long way at arriving at no consensus. Carve outs for specific points within the discussion that the closers say achieve consensus are typically super votes or minor parts and miss the main question, still leading to an overall outcome of the question not being settled. In each of the cases cited, I think the community would have been much better served with one closer, and that the panel closes likely made the outcomes worse not better. ] (]) 00:27, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
*::::] explicitly found a consensus to keep. Where is the no consensus there? Also I would ask that you provide specifics about what elements of that close were a supervote. I have no great love of panel closes and can, if someone needs them, provide diffs of evidence of this. However, panel closes have a place. A limited narrow place. Not in this RfC, for instance. However, I think the two panel closes Levivich used are examples of where they do have a place and where they are not, necessarily, supervotes that reflect no consensus closes. Best, ] (]) 00:53, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
*:::::The schools RfC from a few years ago was the panel close I consider a super vote that I was specifically thinking of in this instance; it was a while ago and consensus at AfD has arguably shifted since then, but at the time I didn’t think it reflected the discussion. I said “typically” to avoid calling out any specific close and not to target any of the ones cited above, even though I do think they likely would have probably been resolved better with one person rather than multiple. Everyone who participated in those did that at community request and in good faith and they’re certainly valid closes. My opinion is that they’d likely have been better if one person closed them.{{pb}}In the case of the R&I AfD if it had just been overturned to keep we would have saved sufficient community time. By overturning for a panel close after a no consensus AfD, that was functionally they only available option to the closers, even if starting fresh. The community was perfectly capable of handling that at the review rather then reopening and requesting a panel. In the process, we lost more time and there were probably a lot more people angsty waiting on the close. We could have skipped that step by ending it at the close review. It was a perfectly good close: it still would have been better if we didn’t have a panel and it had ended before. If a discussion had a close review, that’s already multiple people reading the discussion. There’s no need to add the third step. ] (]) 01:16, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
*::::::I agree with you that panel closes are not appropriate for all RfCs. However, the facts of R+I, where individual closings proved divisive and not supported, but the panel close received no real pushback suggest that in extraordinary circumstances panel closes have a place. I think by acknowledging what that place we have a schema against which to judge the need for panel closes. We then then we can say, no the Ayurveda RfC did not and does not need a panel close. A blanket statement that they are always super votes, carve outs of minor parts, or miss the main question makes it harder to explain to people suggesting in good faith that one is necessary here why that maybe isn't the case. Best, ] (]) 01:34, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
*:::::::Yeah, I don’t think R&I got it wrong, but I think the community likely would also have been fine ending it at the review stage, and it probably would have been less taxing on community stamina to not have a panel. I’ve done a few myself, and those experiences have probably formed the way I view them knowing my own faults. When a panel close exists, there’s a desire to have an outcome, and those minor carve outs that reflect bits of the discussion also tend not to have been proposed directly. There’s a risk that anyone latches on to them in the process, but I think I’m at least more likely to latch onto them when there’s an expectation for resolution, which panels tend to have. I suppose my critique is that in most cases, if a panel is required the correct outcome usually would be no consensus on the question asked, which often is part of the result, but panels have a tendency to go beyond that in ways that are normally somewhat minor, but also matter on contentious topics. As a whole, I think we’re better served just not using them, even if they can lead to the right result. ] (]) 01:48, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
'''Opinions disagreeing with the closing summary'''<br>
When a large number of veteran editors disagree with the closing summary, it may be time to ask someone with more experience to write a new closing summary. This can be done with or without upholding the "no consensus" close. --] (]) 16:59, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
{{collapse top|title=Click here to expand}}
* "I do not believe that you gave sufficient weight to the strength of the support arguments, and that you failed to sufficiently account for the weaknesses of the oppose arguments. I accept that a "no consensus for inclusion in the first sentence" close is within the bounds of a reasonable assessment of the debate. However, I believe that you failed to recognise a consensus for inclusion in the first paragraph, which was strongly supported by policy." ] 17:13, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
* "I must say at the least I was surprised by the NAC here. I was sort of expecting a panel close from experienced admins followed by a mandatory review. I do agree this was, at the least, an ill-considered close." ] 18:42, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
* "I believe the closing statement did not even attempt to provide a reasonable summation of the discussion. I see this as an editor who was indecisive and wanted to please both sides. At least a review is needed." - ] 18:59, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
* "Your close leaves the dispute unsettled, despite the strength of support for inclusion in the opening paragraph, as policy dictates. I do not believe your close sufficiently assessed the case for inclusion in the opening paragraph, and I believe that view will be upheld by uninvolved editors. I'll therefore challenge your close at WP:AN." --] 20:09, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
* "I appreciate MrX's willingness to help with the backlog at ANRFC, but I have to agree with RexxS. In fact, I'd say there was a clear consensus for inclusion ''in the lead sentence.'' There was a majority for it, and the minority arguing against it made poor arguments." ] 21:51, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
* "'''Overturn and re-close by admin''' ... FWIW, I see many oppose !votes that should be discounted. For example, all of those arguing "no sources support 'pseudoscience'" should be tossed in light of the many sources presented (mostly by Guy Macon) supporting usage of that term. All the oppose !votes citing WP:LABEL that don't discuss the very specific part of LABEL discussing "pseudoscience" should be tossed as not policy based. Those oppose !votes citing fringe works (one of them cites the back cover of a fringe work, lol) should also be tossed as not reality based. There is at least one blocked sock whose !vote should be tossed. The closing statement did not address any of this. Once you discount all the no-policy-basis or falsely-claiming-no-sources-exist oppose !votes, I see consensus for inclusion in the first sentence." ] 15:09, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
* "I'm the process of challenging the close as I believe a consensus for inclusion in the first ''paragraph'' was established, but missed by the closer. It might be worth hanging on a day or two while it's discussed at ] (and potentially at ])." --] 17:38, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
{{collapse bottom}}
--] (]) 16:59, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

'''Comments that interpret the result of the RfC as allowing the word "pseudoscience" in the opening sentence'''<br>
When different editors in the dispute all read the exact same closing summary and come to different conclusions as to what is allowed and what is forbidden, it may be time to ask someone with more experience to write a new closing summary. --] (]) 16:59, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
{{collapse top|title=Click here to expand}}
* "Isn't it a huge disservice to our readers that we have to water down the language because it might offend some people's beliefs? ... The rfc is no consensus. Can't we edit? Or is this a kind of a stalemate." ] 15:27, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
* "It is indeed an extreme disappointment, but this is a fairly common occurrence on this website. See, for example, the endless, mind-numbing struggle at Indigenous Aryans to merely include the characterization of WP:FRINGE, despite this being obvious to anyone who has even heard the term 'comparative method' whispered in a neighboring room before. The unfortunate situation is that there exists a huge bloc of people with deeply-held religious and political beliefs which prevent level-headed thinking. Not much else can be said about it." ] 15:58, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
* "If you look at the discussion, the consensus was that it doesn't necessarily ''have'' to be in the first sentence, but there was no consensus that it ''can't'' be in the first sentence." ] 20:26, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
* Have you read the comment at 20:26, 16 August 2020 (search for that text to find it)? Please address what it says." -- ] 10:01, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
* "{{tq|In adding the content anyway an editor is ignoring the RfC}} ...That makes no sense." ] 19:26, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
{{collapse bottom}}
--] (]) 16:59, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

'''Comments that interpret the result of the RfC as forbidding the word "pseudoscience" in the opening sentence'''<br>
Again, different editors in the dispute all reading the exact same closing summary and come to different conclusions as to what is allowed and what is forbidden. --] (]) 16:59, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
{{collapse top|title=Click here to expand}}
* "No consensus means there was no agreement to put pseudoscience in the first sentence. In adding the content anyway an editor is ignoring the RfC." ] 19:06, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
*@Guy Macon; Instead of misrepresenting the conclusion from the RfC, I think it must be better if you drop ] in this regard now. I have reverted your edit that goes against the result of the RfC. ] 09:15, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
*@Guy Macon; I had to revert your edit because it really goes against the conclusion of the RfC. Earlier there was no consensus for adding "pseudoscience" in the lead either, thus a new consensus will have to be established to add "pseudoscience". ] 09:29, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
{{collapse bottom}}
--] (]) 16:59, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

**Apologies for mess which I can't seem to fix on iPad. Fixed.

**You're right I probably shouldn't have removed the text above. I tried to make a statement but on my phone couldn't post for some reason. (I'm on an old computer now.) I was able though to remove the cmt- probably shouldn't have. Guy please remove a comment which does not support the statement you are making nor was it meant to. I have never said pseudoscience was forbidden anywhere. You are using my statement to make a point which is not an accurate portrayal of what I said. And yeah pretty testy. Harassment does that. For anyone watching and knows what I'm talking about. Cut it out! ] (]) 17:53, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

*'''Overturn and re-close by administrator''' (involved). I have very little to add to Levivich's and RexxS' analyses which I endorse. I do however see a clear consensus for it being in the first sentence, not just the first paragraph. That is the original RfC question, and once we disregard numerous invalid comments based on misunderstanding of ] or ignoring ], the numbers clearly favor that. The minority's arguments were not stronger such that there is reason to close in accord with them. Support comments that are brief should not be disregarded but should be understood to signal agreement with the arguments made by other support !voters. <span style="font-family:Palatino">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 17:24, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

I’m on my phone-computer is being repaired-so apologize if I mess up formatting in any way.

The RfC was asking a very simple question that is, whether the word pseudoscience should be in the first sentence of the article. That’s all that was being asked. Any support or oppose votes that did not answer that question specifically should probably be discounted. The RfC was not asking about sources, about the opening paragraph, or about whether pseudoscience is a word we should use at all. Rexx’s points are well taken in that regard.

I don’t accept the argument which suggests that the RfC decision means pseudoscience can be included in the lead sentence because the close was no consensus for it to be in the lead sentence...ack... which drifts towards the disingenuous and may even be, from an earthy Canadian saying, dragging a bush. The question was and was meant to be simple, in my mind, a clear yes or no should the word pseudoscience be placed in the first sentence of the lead.

My advice is to thank the closer for his considerable work and because there is so much disagreement ask for a re close. We don’t have to blame anyone.

Finally in the past dealing with articles where pseudoscience is being discussed I have experienced off-Misplaced Pages harassment. This is happening again and it will not scare me away. In fact I didn’t want to get involved in this but I was determined to after and with ongoing harassment. Please feel free to fix any formatting messes.] (]) 22:11, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
* That close is bullshit. I know that fans of quackery will be delighted, but int he end ayurveda ''is'' pseudoscience, and the policy-based arguments support the inclusion of that fact (suitably framed) in the lead. Exactly as we do for many other forms of pseudomedicine. ''']''' <small>(] - ])</small> 22:30, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Right. We have a long standing imperative to include pseudoscience. The RfC was not about whether to include in the lead but about whether to include the word in the first sentence of the lead.] (]) 22:45, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

:And the answer to that question is "there is a consensus to include pseudoscience in the first paragraph, but it does not ''have'' to be in the first sentence". --] (]) 23:45, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
:: {{u|Guy Macon}} that is certainly how I read it. ''']''' <small>(] - ])</small> 00:56, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
:::But it would obviously be best placed in the first sentence, front and centre, so that the most important point on the subject is made right away. -] ] 10:16, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

*'''Overturn and re-close by administrator''' Primarily because the close and the post-close statement could lead to more ambiguity, if not overturned, thus defeating the purpose of the rfc in the first place. The closer should have (ideally, in my opinion) striked their initial close of no consensus. Already on the talk page of the article, one editor had effectively challenged the rfc close (and was rightly reverted back). We will never be able to stop them without a clear close. As for me, MrX's {{tq|Upon re-examination, there appears to be a weak consensus for sustaining the pseudoscience descriptor in the lead}} is sufficient for lead describing it as a pseudoscience. A weak consensus (not at all weak if we go by the analysis made above), is still a consensus. A re-close by an admin should put the matter to rest. - ] (]) 07:33, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''overturn and re-close''' by someone who is qualified to assess the actual discussion, and as per {{u|Levivich}}. ] (]) 11:47, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

*'''Overturn and re-close by admin''' Although I supported including "pseudoscientific" (or similar) in the first sentence, I believe that this part of ]'s first statement is a fair summary: "No consensus to mention the word pseudoscience (or pseudoscientific) in the opening sentence." (I don't know enough about proving "canvassing" to comment on that part.) I '''strongly disagree''' with this statement by ]: Upon re-examination, there appears to be a weak consensus for sustaining the pseudoscience descriptor in the lead." I agree with everything ] wrote in his/their cogent argument above, explaining why this close decision should be overturned and re-closed by a neutral administrator. ] ] <small><small>(I'm a man—traditional male pronouns are fine.)</small></small> 17:38, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Technical issue on Eddie891's RfA? ==
{{atop|Resolved by Only. Rgrds. --] (]) 16:31, 18 August 2020 (UTC)}}
* Relevant page: {{Pagelinks|Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Eddie891}}
When I went to ], the linked text "Voice your opinion on this candidate" linked to a "Co-nomination" section instead of a section one would be expected to voice opinions. Can someone have a look and fix it? Thanks, ] (]) 11:52, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
:Fixed. The template for RFAs links the "voice your opinion" to the 4th section of the RFA. The two co-noms made separate sections/headers, so the discussion section got bumped back to the 6th section. I've updated the link to link directly to the discussion section. ] (]) 11:57, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
{{abot}} {{abot}}

== Abusive edit summary ==
{{archivetop|1=Asked and answered. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;" class="texhtml"> ''']'''</span> 19:59, 18 August 2020 (UTC)<br>
<small>] --<b>] ]</b> 21:19, 18 August 2020 (UTC)</small>}}
Hello - please could you advise whether this edit summary is considered acceptable? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:46, 18 August 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:It's friggin alright with me. It's not offensive or uncivil. ] (]) 19:48, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
:Friggin A! ] (]) 19:53, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
{{archivebottom}}

== Disruptive edits by ]; repeatedly reverting my edits on my own talk page ==

See my comment .

] has been repeatedly engaging in disruptive editing, both in adding POV content on a university article they appear to be affiliated with and removing well-supported content on other university articles. Various higher education editors have had to revert this user’s edits recently, myself included, and he/she has continued to engage in edit warring over it despite being told to take it to talk page repeatedly. XXeducationexpertXX is now engaged in a campaign of repeatedly reverting my edits on my own talk page. This seems to be part of a continuing disruptive editing pattern, and seems clear to me that this editor is not here to build an encyclopedia. —] (]) 00:09, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

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    Sander.v.Ginkel unblock request

    NO CONSENSUS This has been open for more than a month, much longer than most ban appeals, and it is basically deadlocked, both in numbers and valid arguments. This is therefore closed as not having consensus, which defaults to the block remaining in place. Beeblebrox 21:45, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


    The following is copied from User talk:Sander.v.Ginkel#Unblock_request on behalf of Sander.v.Ginkel:

    I have made serious mistakes. I regret it and say sorry for it. I fully understand why I have been blocked. My biggest mistake that I copied-pasted content from articles to other articles, that led to a BLP violation. I have also misused other accounts as suckpuppets: User:SportsOlympic and User:MFriedman (note that the two other accounts –- User:Dilliedillie and User:Vaintrain -- at Category:Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Sander.v.Ginkel was not me. ) In addition, my work was too focused on quantity, rather than quality. I apologize to those who had to do some cleaning up for me.

    Whay do I want to come back? And do I deserve it? I can show that I can make constructive content. I made some edits and created pages under the IP address 82.174.61.58, that was not allowed; and was blocked. It is not good that I made edits under an IP address, but I appreciated that some users (User:Tamzin, User:Xoak, User:Ingenuity) stated they liked the content I created and/or that they offer the opportunity to have me back (see at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Sander.v.Ginkel/Archive). I made the same mistakes on the Dutch Misplaced Pages (where I misused the same accounts). At this Misplaced Pages I bot back my account and I am editing the Wikipeida I’m also editing at simple.wikipedia.org (see User:SportsOlympic). I have created over 900 pages (see here), (1 page being deleted). I like to create articles from historic work on old sources, for instance simple:Annie van de Blankevoort, simple:1928 Belgium–Netherlands women's athletics competition, simple:Julia Beelaerts van Blokland, simple:Esther Bekkers-Lopes Cardozo or the event simple:Water polo at the 1922 Women's Olympiad that is barely mentioned at the English 1922 Women's Olympiad. Around 100 pages have been (literally) copied to the English Misplaced Pages by several users. I'm also editing Wikidata, see here and here when I forgot to log in.

    However, as I have learned from it, I will never use multiple accounts anymore and adding controversial content without doing a proper fact-check. I will always listen to users, be constructive and be friendly. I will make sure you will not regret giving me my account back. I would like to work under the account user:SportsOlympic.

    Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 18:12, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

    Support unbanning and unblocking per WP:SO. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:31, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Quoting my SPI comment in 2022:

      I was torn on this. The IP does not seem to be creating the sort of low-quality BLP stubs that SportsOlympic was. If this were "just" a case of block evasion, I'm not sure I could justify a block of the IP as preventative of any disruption, and would be inclined to either ignore it or block but offer a non-OFFER unblock to the main account. However, Sander.v.Ginkel is banned, and under the SportsOlympic account has caused significant disruption just six months ago. Evading a ban is an inherent harm, as it undercuts the community's ability to self-govern. Furthermore, it would be unfair to the community to allow someone to contribute content, particularly in a DS area as much of the IP's recent edits have been, without the community being on-notice of their history of significant content issues. (And there is still troubling content like Draft:Krupets.) I thus feel I would be defying the mandate the community has given me as an admin if I did anything but block here. ... FWIW, Sander, I could see myself supporting an OFFER unban down the line, although I'd recommend a year away rather than six months.

      That sentiment is what I eventually wrote down at User:Tamzin/Adverse possession unblock, which mentions the same principles being relevant in unban discussions. And now that this is before the community, with even more time having passed, I have no problem unbanning: The post-ban edits, while problematic in that they were sockpuppetry, do show evidence that Sander has learned from his mistakes, and thus a ban no longer serves a preventative purpose. Looking back at the one hesitation I mentioned above, I think my concern was that it was an ECR violation that seemed credulous of a pro-Russian narrative; but if there's no evidence of that being part of any POV-pushing, then I don't see it as an obstacle to unbanning. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 18:33, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Support per above.-- Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:37, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
      Endorse one account proviso. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 20:28, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
    • I'm a little bit concerned by the sockpuppetry returning earlier this year: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Sander.v.Ginkel/Archive#18 April 2024. However, that is over 6 months ago. I would Support with the obvious proviso that the user be limited to 1 account and that IP editing may be scrutinized for evidence of WP:LOUTSOCK. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 20:16, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Support with provisions per above. Worth keeping a close eye on, but they seem to have understood the problems with their behavior and improved upon it. The Kip 07:07, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Support I've previously spoken in favor of the subject as well. X (talk) 09:15, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose. "My biggest mistake that I copied-pasted content from articles to other articles, that led to a BLP violation. " That wasn't the biggest mistake by far. You made extremely negative claims about sportspeople based on internet rumors. Apart from this, the first article I checked on simple, , is way too close paraphrasing of the source. This has very sloppy writing, "He started his business alone 1980 built so his horse stable "Hexagon" in Schore. " is just nonsense. Copyvio/close paraphrasing seems to be a recurring problem, this has e.g. "Zwaanswijk is regarded as one of the most respected post-World War II visual artists of Haarlem and his work had a profound influence on the local art scene." where the source has "Piet Zwaanswijk was een van de meest gerespecteerde na-oorlogse beeldend kunstenaars van Haarlem. Zijn werk had een diepe invloed op de lokale kunstscene". I don't get the impression that the earlier issues have disappeared. Fram (talk) 11:45, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Support User seems to have recognized what he did wrong, has edited constructively off enwiki. JayCubby 18:52, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Weak Support, the crux of the issue was three-fold: creation of low-quality sports stubs (including what Fram said), persistent IDHT when asked to fix them, and sockpuppetry. I recall I identified the SportsOlympic sock in a tangential ANI thread a couple of years ago. It appears he has edited constructively elsewhere. I would like to see a commitment to one-account-only and a commitment respond civilly and collaboratively when criticized. Jip Orlando (talk) 15:45, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Support. Completely support an unblock; see my comment here when his IP was blocked in April. BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:25, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose. Sander and his socks created literally thousands of poorly-written and/or potentially-copyvio pages on (very frequently) non-notable sports topics. I don't see evidence in his Simple Wiki contribs that his writing has improved, and for someone with his history of non-notable subject choices I would want to see clear evidence that these creations are supported by WP:SUSTAINED, non-routine, IRS SIGCOV. Articles like this may well be on notable competitions, but with content like On 20 March the Women's Fencing Club gave an assaut, in honor of the visit of the Dutch team. As seen as an exceptional, mr. de Vos was a the only man allowed to visit the women's club., and all sources being from 20 or 21 March 1911, we can be confident that verifying and rewriting the mangled translations and searching for continued coverage will be a huge pain for other editors. And going from the most recent en.wp AfD participation I'd also anticipate the same combativeness and time wasted explaining P&Gs to him in that area as well. Given the volume of his creations, I don't think it is fair to foist all the extra work that would come with overturning the ban onto other editors without a much more thorough evaluation of his Simple Wiki contribution quality. JoelleJay (talk) 02:34, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Currently oppose; open to a change of view if some explanation and assurances are given with regard to the points Fram raises. There is no point in unblocking a problematic editor if it appears that they may well continue to cause issues for the community ~ Lindsay 12:59, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Support but keep an eye on contributions off ENWP. Ahri Boy (talk) 17:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
      @Ahri Boy: Not sure we are concerned with contribs off ENWP. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
      He might appeal on Commons later if the appeal here is successful, so there would be a cooldown before doing there. Ahri Boy (talk) 01:15, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose per Fram on close paraphrasing, JoelleJay on sourcing/writing quality, and my own observations on English-language proficiency (I see very recent sentences like "Next as working for magazines he also contributed to book"). At an absolute minimum I would need a restriction on article creation (to prevent the low-quality mass creation issues from recurring), but these issues would be a problem in other areas too. I think continuing to contribute to simple-wiki and nl-wiki would be the best way forward. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 01:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      He was once blocked on NLWP for the same sockpuppetry as here before. I don't even know that he may be offered SO there. Ahri Boy (talk) 10:16, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      See . Extraordinary Writ (talk) 10:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose. Like Fram, JoelleJay, and Extraordinary Writ, I have concerns about their competence with regards to copyright, notability, and simple prose writing. I think an unblock is likely to create a timesink for the community, who will be forced to tie one eye up watching both of his hands. ♠PMC(talk) 08:41, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Come on – it's been nearly seven years since the ban – why can't we give another chance? His articles from when he was an IP seemed quite good (and much different from stubs which seem to have been the problem), from what I remember (although they've since been G5'd). BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:35, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      S.v.G. needs to be reevaluated. He needs to clarify that the purpose of return is genuine, constructive, and one account only. He hasn't made any contributions to Commons because he was blocked. Ahri Boy (talk) 19:55, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      I think saying that I will never use multiple accounts anymore and that he wants to make constructive content would indicate that the purpose of return is genuine, constructive, and one account only. BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      For the meantime, he should stay at Simple and NLWP for another six months to make sure no suspicions will be made before appealing under SO. Ahri Boy (talk) 20:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      But it's only been three years since he was mass-creating non-notable stubs with BLP violations and bludgeoning AfDs with his SportsOlympic sock. He then edited extensively as an IP, got banned for 18 months, restarted within two weeks of that ban ending, and made another 1000+ edits until his latest IP ban in spring 2024. After which he immediately invoked the (laxer) equivalent of the SO on nl.wp... JoelleJay (talk) 21:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
      And he admits that he was too focused on quantity, rather than quality, apologized repeatedly, and his creations as an IP showed that he was no longer focused on mass-creating non-notable stubs. BeanieFan11 (talk) 21:18, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Support With the above mentioned provisions. Seems like a genuine, good faith, attempt to start over. Frank Anchor 04:44, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Support - Like a lot of behavioral issues on this site, I think it all stems back to the general public seeing this site as an all-inclusive encyclopedia and some users here seeing the site as a celebrity encyclopedia. If the user becomes a problem, action can be taken again. Let's see how it goes. KatoKungLee (talk) 20:03, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose per Fram and PMC. —Compassionate727  18:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Question: Is SvG the same person as Slowking4? There has been an odd connection between the two in the past; I think it was first noted by Dirk Beetstra. ☆ Bri (talk) 22:58, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Support. This appears to be a good-faith attempt at a return, and looking through the commentary here I don't see evidence to suggest continuing the ban and block are preventative. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Oppose basically per JoelleJay, particularly the evidence that their MASSCREATE/socking/evading behaviour was carrying on as recently as spring 2024. If/When they return, it should be with the requirement that all their articles have to go through AFC and that they won't get WP:AUTOPATROLLED without a substantive discussion (i.e., no automatic conferring of autopatrolled - they have to request it and disclose why this restriction is in place when doing so). FOARP (talk) 16:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
    • It does look like a good-faith desire to return and work on Misplaced Pages. And I would just want to add that Misplaced Pages needs such a fruitful article creator. Especially since WP:NSPORT was severely trimmed several years ago, and probably thousands of sportspeople articles have since been deleted.
      Support. (I am not an admin, so I am not sure I can vote. I can see some non-admins voting, but I'm still not sure.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 14:26, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
      @Moscow Connection: Your comments are as valid as anyone else's, if you explain your reasoning, but please note that this is a discussion, not a straight vote, so just saying "support" doesn't tell us much.It has been pointed out to that they did do that, I guess the break threw me off. Beeblebrox 21:40, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Conditional support unblock (non-admin vote- if I'm not allowed to vote then please just unbold this vote): add editing restriction for them to use WP:AFC for article creation, and this restriction can be reviewed in 6-12 months if their article creation has been good. Their article mass creation required one of the largest cleanup jobs I have seen on here, and we certainly wouldn't want the same mass-created quasi-notable articles created again. Joseph2302 (talk) 17:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Support I can't repeat what Beaniefan11 say enough: "Come on – it's been nearly seven years since the ban – why can't we give another chance? And he admits that he was too focused on quantity, rather than quality, apologized repeatedly, and his creations as an IP showed that he was no longer focused on mass-creating non-notable stubs." This should assuage any doubt in the mind of the reviewing administrator. Kenneth Kho (talk) 15:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Oppose Claims of "It's been seven years!" fall on deaf ears when you find out he's been socking all along and as recently as a year ago. Fram and PMC have good points as well. Show some restraint and understanding of your block and WP:SO is yours. Buffs (talk) 23:11, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Support with a little WP:ROPE and conditions suggested by Joseph2302. Yeah, given the timeframe, I'd say having to submit their creations to AFC for the time being is a sufficient middle way for the yes and no camps. ミラP@Miraclepine 00:10, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Oppose - Large-scale sockpuppetry is very harmful, and was continuing for years after the ban. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:43, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Kansascitt1225 ban appeal

    Appeal successful. There were some murmurings requesting a topic ban from Kansas, but nothing approaching consensus. Of course, Kansascitt1225 would be well-advised to be careful not to go back to the behaviors that led to a block in the first place. But in the meantime, welcome back. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 19:59, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


    I am posting the following appeal on behalf of Kansascitt1225 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · logs · block log · arb · rfc · lta · SPI · cuwiki), who is considered banned by the community per WP:3X:

    (keeping it short for WP:TLDR) Hi Misplaced Pages community, it has been over 1 year since I edited on Misplaced Pages without evading my block or breaking community rules. I would like to be given another chance to edit. I realized that my blocking was due to my behavior of creating multiple accounts and using them on the same page and creating issues during a disagreement. I was younger then and am now able to communicate more effectively with others. I intend to respect community rules and not be disruptive to the community. I was upset years ago when I mentioned Kansas City’s urban decay and it was reverted as false and I improperly reacted in a disruptive way that violated the community rules. The mistake I made which caused the disruptive behavior was that I genuinely thought people were reverting my edits due to the racist past of this county and keeping out blacks and having a dislike for the county. I also thought suburbs always had more single family housing and less jobs than cities. In this part of the United States a suburb means something different than what it means in other parts of the world and is more of a political term for other municipalities which caught me off guard and wasn’t what I grew up thinking a suburb was. Some of these suburbs have lower single family housing rates and higher population density and this specific county has more jobs than the “major city” (referenced in previous unblock request if interested). This doesn’t excuse my behavior but shows why I was confused and I should have properly addressed it in the talk pages instead of edit warring or creating accounts. After my initial blocking, I made edits trying to improve the project thinking that would help my case when it actually does the opposite because I was bypassing my block which got me community banned to due the automatic 3 strikes rule. I have not since bypassed my block. I’m interested in car related things as well as cities and populations of the United States and want to improve these articles using good strong references. Thanks for reading. Kansascitt1225 (talk) 04:46, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

    References

    1. https://slate.com/business/2015/05/urban-density-nearly-half-of-america-s-biggest-cities-look-like-giant-suburbs.html. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
    voorts (talk/contributions) 21:22, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
    • (mildly involved) Support. I gave feedback on an earlier version of their ban appeal. This is five years since the initial block. Five years and many, many socks, and many, many arguments. But with no recent ban evasion and a commitment to communicate better, I think it's time to give a second chance. -- asilvering (talk) 21:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Support per asilvering and WP:SO. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Support. Five years is a long time. Willing to trust for a second chance.-- Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Ideally I'd want to see some indication that they don't intend to right great wrongs as the issue seems to be rather ideological in nature and I don't see that addressed in the appeal. I also don't love the failure to understand a lot of issues around their block/conduct and their inability to effectively communicate on their talk page and on their unblock request from November. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:00, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
      Would a topic ban from Kansas-related topics help? This was floated as a bare minimum two or so years ago. -- asilvering (talk) 00:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
      I'm not that concerned by the RGW issue. Their communication on this appeal has been clear, they responded to my feedback regarding their unblock request, and they've indicated they'll not edit war and seek consensus for their edits. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Is my maths just bad or is January 2019 not six years ago rather than five? In any event it's been a long time since they tried to evade. I'm leaning toward giving a second chance but I'd really like them to understand that walls of text are not a good way to communicate, that they need to post in paragraphs, and that Misplaced Pages is not a place for righting great wrongs. FOARP (talk) 16:27, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
      Is my maths just bad or is January 2019 not six years ago rather than five? ssssshhh. -- asilvering (talk) 18:02, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
      Response from KC:

      Yes I can write in paragraphs and list different ideas in separate paragraphs instead of a giant run on sentence.

      I wasn’t trying to right great wrongs but noticed the contrast of the definition of suburban on Misplaced Pages and these communities being described as suburban (meanwhile some of these suburbs verifiably having lower residential to job ratio than the city and also a higher overall population density with some suburbs gaining population during the day due to commuters coming into them). This is essentially why on my case page It says I feel as tho something had to be “fixed”. I thought my edits were being removed simply because people didn’t like this place or some of its past so I felt as tho I was simply being purposefully misled which caused me to not follow proper civility.

      I just wanted to clarify that these places weren’t only residential and were major employment areas that they sometimes have a lower percentage of single family homes. This to me was always the opposite of what suburban meant, atleast what I learned during grade school and what it says on Misplaced Pages. That’s where the confusion came from. Kansascitt1225 (talk) 06:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

      voorts (talk/contributions) 02:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Support Six years is a long time, and they have shown growth. I do not think what is actually happening here is righting great wrongs, instead they assumed bad faith and things went downhill from there. I think their concerns of Jackson county being THE central county of the metropolitan area (which Misplaced Pages deems urban) when you can see in the census reference here there are actually 6 central counties (which Misplaced Pages deems suburban) is reasonable. I researched it, but found the concerns are inconsistent with urban area page which provides the definition that An urban area is a human settlement with a high population density and an infrastructure of built environment. This is the core of a metropolitan statistical area in the United States, if it contains a population of more than 50,000. An urban area is the most urban area compared to its surroundings, even though its surroundings are quite dense. I hope this helps. Kenneth Kho (talk) 22:54, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
      I add that their concerns that suburban designation misleads people seem to have merit. It is not the suburban designation that misleads people though, but the definition of suburban itself on the suburban article seems to be misleading. I know this is not a place to discuss content, but discuss conduct. But some insight into content can help resolve problems. Kenneth Kho (talk) 11:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Tulsi (unblock request)

    User unblocked. arcticocean ■ 12:25, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


    Tulsi has now submitted an unblock request which I am copying:

    Dear Sysops,

    I sincerely apologize for my past actions, which were problematic and deceptive. I fully understand the concerns raised, and I deeply regret my involvement. On April 3, 2024, my account was blocked by Rosguill in relation to undisclosed paid editing associated with the Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive361 § DIVINE and Tulsi: COI/UPE/quid-pro-quo editing, association with threats and harassment. However, I want to clarify that my involvement in these matters was minimal, with only minor interactions in the past. I have never written articles for payment, and I do not support paid editing.

    The issues in question occurred in 2020 or 2021, prior to the block. At that time, I admitted my conflict of interest (COI) and disclosed it on the relevant article talk pages. Following discussions, my global and local rights were removed, but the block was not enforced until two years later. Many of the articles in question were deleted, so I did not find it necessary to disclose anything further. Moving forward, I have no intention of creating or editing COI-related articles. However, if I am ever in a situation where I am required to contribute to such an article, I will ensure full disclosure on the article talk page and submit it for review, as I did with the article Talk:Ghero.

    While I respect Rosguill’s decision to impose a block after the two-year gap, I understand that a block serves to prevent disruption rather than punish. I have learned valuable lessons from this experience, and my contributions over the past two years reflect this growth. In this time, I have created over 80 articles, all without any undisclosed paid editing or COI involvement. Additionally, I have contributed to patrolling, as seen in the Twinkle and Draftify logs, and I have reported several violations on WP:UAA.

    I acknowledge that I was not fully familiar with Misplaced Pages's policies in the past, but I have since taken the time to understand them better. I have been an active and committed user since October 2014, with significant contributions across various Wikimedia projects. I have also served as a sysop on Wikimedia Commons, Meta-Wiki, MediaWiki, and the Maithili and Nepali Wikipedias.

    I am requesting an unblock because I am fully committed to abiding by all the established policies moving forward, and I am eager to contribute here in a constructive manner. Please kindly allow me a second chance.

    Thank you for your consideration. I humbly request your reconsideration and the restoration of the editing privileges on my account on English Misplaced Pages.

    Sincerely,

    Tulsi 24x7 14:39, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    Having had discussions with the blocking admin, we would like to seek community comments on the unblock request.

    Tulsi was blocked after UPE allegations that had been outstanding for around 2 years essentially caught up with them. They have now attested to having never edited for pay, which was the question they originally failed to answer twice (first thread, second thread), leading to the block. In the unblock request, they give a sincere undertaking not to engage in any more UPE.

    They have created several dozen articles about Nepalese politicians but these seem to be innocuous. I have identified only a handful of articles where Tulsi could have edited for pay. Given the amount of other contributions Tulsi has made, it would be appropriate to give the benefit of the doubt. arcticocean ■ 15:14, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

    Support A second chance promises that Tulsi will not do highly undisclosed paid editing. I may partially support a topic ban on Nepalese politics against Tulsi. Ahri Boy (talk) 05:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist Edit Restriction Appeal

    Unanimous consent after 36 hours to lift the restriction. Primefac (talk) 14:25, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


    A bit over a year ago, with near unanimous support, I appealed a TBAN from GENSEX - receiving in its place the following sanctions 1RR restriction in both the GENSEX and AMPOL topics; is limited to 0RR on articles for organizations/activists who are affiliated with anti-transgender activism or gender-critical feminism, broadly construed; and has a PBAN from Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull. Previous discussions are linked there. I am now requesting that my restrictions be dropped entirely because I have grown considerably as an editor, both since my initial TBAN when I'd just turned 19 and since the appeal.

    I translated Transgender history in Brazil (having originally wrote it on eswiki during my TBAN) and made it my first GA. I uploaded multiple colorized photographs of transgender historical figures to commons I improved LGBTQ rights in New York and wrote articles for famous trans activists Cecilia Gentili and Carol Riddell. I also cleared up serious BLP violations at Aimee Knight and rewrote the article. I also helped expand Trans Kids Deserve Better and wrote Bayswater Support Group. I improved Rapid-onset gender dysphoria controversy and conversion therapy. I improved gender dysphoria in children. I rewrote and considerably expanded WPATH as well as Gender Identity Development Service. I expanded the article on the Cass Review. I wrote the article on the 1970 semi-governmental report Evaluation of Transsexual Surgery. I expanded the articles on Stephen B. Levine and Kenneth Zucker. I rewrote Detransition to follow WP:MEDRS and use systematic reviews instead of primary studies. Most proudly, I wrote Transgender health care misinformation and took it to GA - this is particularly relevant as a key part of the original TBAN discussion was whether my commitment to removing misinformation from Misplaced Pages was a case of either WP:RGW or following WP:NPOV and WP:FRINGE.

    I believe the restrictions impair my ability to edit productively. I generally edit with 1RR regardless of sanctions. With 0RR, as Red-tailed hawk noted at my previous appeal "they can wind up restricting the sorts of partial reverts that are often a healthy part of the ordinary editing process." With 0RR, I am unable to engage in the BRD cycle properly and always second-guessing whether a partial edit to a recent edit counts as a revert or not. It also prevents me reverting drive-by SPA/IP povpushing. I don't plan to ever edit KJK's article again, but I believe that my record of neutral constructive editing shows the PBAN is no longer preventative or necessary. In the highly unlikely event I ever see a reason to edit it in future, I know my edits would be subject to heightened scrutiny which I'd welcome.

    I appreciate your consideration. My best regards, Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 01:02, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

    Support. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
    Support. Based on YFNS's activity since the original tban, I don't see any reason to believe that restrictions are necessary going forward. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 06:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
    Support. Welcome back comrade. Ahri Boy (talk) 06:56, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
    Support based on their editing activity between TBAN and last year, as well as between the sanctions and now. Good work, and a great example of how this restorative process is supposed to work. May you inspire other misguided people to a path of restoration. TiggerJay(talk) 08:27, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
    Snow Support Kenneth Kho (talk) 14:15, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
    Strong support. To me YNFS comes across as a very responsible editor and I believe these restrictions are no longer warranted. HenrikHolen (talk) 16:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
    Support I remember the original ban happening due in large part to canvassing on twitter, the fact that any restrictions remained in place thereafter strikes me as a deep miscarriage of justice. Snokalok (talk) 23:26, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

    Query Does your reference to BRD mean that you undertake to follow it in the future? Sweet6970 (talk) 14:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

    Enthusiastic support YFNS is a perfect model of an editor who is an asset to Misplaced Pages. Simonm223 (talk) 15:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
    Support A well worded appeal, worth giving another chance. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:20, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Copyvio Problem

    Hey all, I believe that these three diff should be redacted as copy vio's, thanks. There are several sentences which are directly lifted from the sources. Some one more experienced should likely have a look through the revision I restored as well. I didn't spot anything, but I may have missed something.

    1 2 3

    Kingsmasher678 (talk) 22:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

    To be clear, I don't think that @YatesTucker00090 is really at any fault here.
    Kingsmasher678 (talk) 22:37, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
    @Kingsmasher678 please see {{copyvio-revdel}} on how to tag copyvios for attention. Nthep (talk) 08:04, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

    Lardlegwarmers block appeal

    Essentially unanimous consensus to not unblock. RoySmith (talk) 15:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


    I blocked Lardlegwarmers yesterday for one week for a violation of their community topic ban from COVID-19. This was about this edit, although I subsequently noticed this one as well. LLW has asked me to copy their appeal here. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 03:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

    Statement from Lardlegwarmers

    I have only been very active editing Misplaced Pages for about one month, even though my account is older. I was blocked for pushing a minority POV in the talk page for Covid-19 Lab Leak Theory, which I understand. For context, this issue wouldn't have even come up at ANI except that there was this very old account making borderline uncivil comments constantly, and I took them to ANI myself and it boomeranged. One thing that I learned from that experience is that Misplaced Pages's culture sort of revolves around social dynamics and politics, which can overshadow fairness and consistency in rule enforcement, and that I am probably not going to be the one to fix it. Anyways, in my defense, I didn't learn until later that my attempt to reason things out like grownups was not allowed; my edits were in good faith and I was really just attempting to talk it out with the other editors who did not agree with me. But I understand that the norm in this space is to walk away if there isn't any uptake of my ideas or take it to dispute resolution instead of continuing to try to convince people. The current ban is for making a comment on an AE thread, not a Covid-19 article. I was on the page for a totally unrelated reason and noticed that a user I recognized from the Covid thread was being discussed. My comment was mostly about user behavior and reflecting on the underlying dispute itself, not Covid-19. Also, on my user page I quoted Larry Sanger discussing his view on Misplaced Pages's approach to Covid-19 , which I'd assumed was permitted because it's my own user page and it's really a comment about the state of Misplaced Pages as a whole. The admin who blocked me, @Tamzin, blanked it from my user page. If the community won't let me keep that quote on my user page, then fine, we'll leave it removed, but I wish they would have just asked me to remove it and described why instead of editing my user page. A block for this stuff seems harsh. Thanks.

    References

    1. Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2024-12-12/Op-ed

    Statement from Tamzin

    Excerpting my comment on their talkpage:

    Usually we only warn someone on their first topic ban violation. However, in your case, the fact that both violations occurred within hours of the ban being imposed, and that they were belligerent rants treating Misplaced Pages as a battleground, made me judge that a short block would more clearly communicate just how far you are from what is considered acceptable conduct. Even if you didn't understand that the ban applied outside articles, you should have understood that the community found your editing about COVID disruptive, which should have been reason enough to not make those edits.

    -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 03:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

    Discussion among uninvolved editors

    • This is clearly a topic ban violation - and it came less than a day after it was imposed. Even if assuming in good faith that they didn't know it was a topic ban violation, their unblock request shows not only that they don't understand what they did wrong, but they attempt to justify it with statements such as Anyways, in my defense, I didn't learn until later that my attempt to reason things out like grownups was not allowed which is borderline a personal attack (veiled insult that others weren't being grownups); which can overshadow fairness and consistency in rule enforcement which is confirming they still don't understand why they were topic banned nor why they were blocked for violating it; and quoting Larry Sanger's fringe theory promoting comments on their userpage after their topic ban. To summarize, I have no confidence that the user understands what they did wrong, and I would go so far as to say the user attempting to skirt the edges of their topic ban and supporting another user trying to promote fringe theories on Misplaced Pages merits an indefinite community ban. TLDR: Oppose unblock and ultimately would support indefinite ban due to the flagrant violation, lack of understanding, and no belief that after the 7 days is up they will not go straight back to trying to right what they percieve as a great wrong. I won't be the one to propose that, however. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 03:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    • I don't see how an unblock is possible when Lardlegwarmers clearly still doesn't understand what a broadly construed topic ban means. To be clear, there's no need to ask the "community" whether you can keep your topic ban violation. The only hope for you to be able to obey it is if you are able to decide yourself, especially after you've been told by an admin. While we do try to educate instead of just blocking, the "community" isn't here to help you understand the limits of your topic ban. Nil Einne (talk) 04:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
      Should clarify that despite what I said above, I'd weakly oppose extending the topic ban block to indefinite at this time. While I'm not hopeful Lardlegwarmers is going to be able to obey it given what they've said, I think it's fine to give them rope after the ban block expires and apply normal escalating blocks. Since we're already here, perhaps this will somehow help them understand that yes the community requires you to apply it broadly on anything to do with COVID-19 throughout Misplaced Pages. They should consider this very short rope though and notably the next time they feel they need to ask the community whether they're violating their topic ban when they are, it might be the last time. Nil Einne (talk) 20:38, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
      Sorry mixed up ban and block above twice, now fixed. Nil Einne (talk) 01:45, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Oppose unblock as the user looks to have no intention of following Misplaced Pages guidelines with their request. It is only a week and will give a change to think about how to change. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 04:13, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Oppose unblock. It truly takes some chutzpah to cite a Signpost piece authored by the admin who blocked you to support the proposition that you're being railroaded. Weak support for an indef because that's what Lardlegwarmers seems to be speedrunning. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:30, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Oppose unblock. The topic ban was on the topic of COVID-19, broadly construed, not the topic of COVID-19 directly in articlespace. And the topic ban was violated, not just within less than a day, but within three hours of it being imposed. On top of that the unblock request could be a case study for WP:NOTTHEM. I won't call for an indef yet, but when the block expires Lardlegwarmers should bear in mind that any further violations of the topic ban will be their last. - The Bushranger One ping only 10:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    • No unblock - Basically per Lardlegwarmers: they don't appear to understand why they've been blocked. An indefinite block seems very likely in this editor's future and we certainly should consider cutting out the middle-man and just skipping to it, but I'd like to give them at least some chance here to understand why they were blocked. FOARP (talk) 10:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Oppose unblock - While I usually support giving editors WP:ROPE to demonstrate improvement, this case warrants a longer wait. The user acknowledges pushing a minority POV and failing to disengage per WP:DISPUTE norms, but their justification suggests a lack of understanding or acceptance of policies like WP:NPOV, WP:CIVIL, and WP:NOTHERE. Their off-topic comment in an AE thread, despite knowing the sensitivity of such spaces, and the policy-violating content on their user page, further reflect ongoing disruption. I recommend they take time to reflect and gain a better grasp of Misplaced Pages's collaborative culture before requesting an unblock again. Footballnerd2007talk11:31, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Oppose unblock. I agree that absent change from this user an indefinite block is likely. For their benefit, if you're the subject of a topic ban, broadly construed, about COVID-19, you need to be editing in an entirely different topic area. Think of something that you're interested in--television shows, football, English gardens, science fiction books? Take a week and think on it. Mackensen (talk) 11:42, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Oppose unblock. What is there left to say? This conduct feels like appellant's purpose is use Misplaced Pages as a battleground and to soapbox their views rather than to build the encyclopedia-- to remake Misplaced Pages as they think it should be. My feeling is that a week won't be nearly enough. The railroad comment is appallingly full of not understanding that their conduct is not acceptable in a collaborative project. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 12:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
      PS: What Tamzin said in her statement above. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 12:33, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
      Whilst I don't believe user will be able to change their approach, I feel an indef would be premature for now. We should give them a chance to mend their ways. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 12:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
    • An account that exists only to push a particular POV across several articles is topic banned, violates that topic ban immediately, and posts a battlegroundy unblock request that thoroughly misses the point. Whoever closes this should be considering indef, not an unblock. — Rhododendrites \\ 13:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
      Indeed. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 14:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Oppose unblock this specific response Misplaced Pages's culture sort of revolves around social dynamics and politics, which can overshadow fairness and consistency in rule enforcement is indicative of their viewpoints and why they're not ready to contribute. They continue, my attempt to reason things out like grownups was not allowed. These demonstrate that they still do not get it, and rather project their self-perspective is that they are actually a victim of people who are abusing the rules against them. . I proffer that this is going to be a consistent problem until they acknowledge that they were violating policy. Zero indication that they know how to positively contribute, just perhaps a vague inference that they'll avoid getting in trouble -- because -- we'll I'm not entirely sure they've communicated what they will do differently, but rather simply say that a block for this stuff seems harsh. TiggerJay(talk) 15:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
      Notwithstanding the harsh situation I presented above, to be clear I oppose indef for now. A new user should have the opportunity to overcome early (while significant) setbacks, which is what TBANs are designed to encourage. I am encouraged by things like YFNS corrective behavior in a prior AN discussion, and can only be hopeful and AGF that might apply to LLW here. We need more passionate, subject matter experts, as contributors to this project, but they absolutely must contribute positively and following established PGs. TiggerJay(talk) 16:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Oppose unblock and support an indef. I am pretty confident in saying that this is where we will be heading after this block ends. RickinBaltimore (talk) 15:20, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Oppose unblock, clear violations of the topic ban. Don't oppose indef, but I'd like to at least give him the chance to figure out exactly what we expect going forward. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:52, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Support block, oppose unblock, oppose indef - this is a topic-banned newbie's first violation, in the heat of the moment after the restriction was imposed. Tamzin's block was the appropriate response. The unblock request is wholly inadequate, but jumping straight to indef for this sort of violation is a pretty extreme overreach. If they go back to violating their sanction after this block expires, then let's talk community ban, but they should be given the opportunity to edit constructively while respecting the restriction. Ivanvector (/Edits) 16:07, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Oppose unblock, oppose indef...however... I am sympathetic to their point of view and their general "right" (we don't really have rights here on WP) to post their opinion on a subject, even one as contentious as COVID-19. I think the blanking of the user page is a step too far. We shouldn't be in the business of deleting negative opinions about Misplaced Pages; while the statement was in reference to COVID-19, it doesn't mention it within the claim and is more a critique of Misplaced Pages at large and mass media than its relation to COVID. I would let the statement on their user page stand/restore it. Larry Sanger's statement is not a fringe theory, it is a reasonable opinion. There were loads of statements/claims about COVID/its origin/mandates/treatment/vaccines that, despite their widespread implementations and presentation as "the science", later turned out to be misleading or untested conjecture (examples: no studies on masking effectiveness with a large population vs the coronavirus, 6 foot spacing, lying to the American public about wearing masks because health care professionals needed them more, lab leak theory, military connections to the Wuhan Institute, US funding of WI, etc). HOWEVER, civil discourse is essential. That means that discussions about COVID were fraught with battlegrounds and bludgeoning. As such, we have additional restrictions for COVID discussions and other contentious topics and LLW needs to follow them. LLW did not do so and has shown a consistent flaunting of these restrictions and a weeklong block is a reasonable start. In summary, the quote isn't unreasonable to leave on their user page (give them that latitude), but a weeklong block for the other behavior should stand. Buffs (talk) 16:15, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
      They added two comments to their userpage. Both were critical of Misplaced Pages. One was also critical of Anthony Fauci and other aspects of the US government's COVID response. I removed the latter. It doesn't matter whether Sanger's opinion is fringe or not; what matters is that he was talking about COVID. I would be quite the hypocrite to remove something from someone's userpage just for criticizing Misplaced Pages, as I have a fair bit of that on my own userpage. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 17:02, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
      There's some pretty big overlap there in criticism of Fauci and how it is handled on Misplaced Pages. Again, I don't feel THAT is a significant violation of COVID editing restrictions (beyond the fact that they did it despite such an editing restriction). Anyone can completely skip over it if they wish. @Tamzin: playing devil's advocate for a moment, what if I published the same thing on my user page? Would it be ok? Would it be ok if I posted it on LLW's user page (as long as LLW was ok with it, of course)? I realize we're getting in the weeds of a "what-if..." but if so, what's the substantive difference between me putting it on a user page and LLW doing the same? Buffs (talk) 17:19, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
      If you posted it to your userpage, it would be fine (although not that constructive), because you are not topic-banned from COVID. If you posted it to their userpage, that would be WP:PROXYING for a banned editor, since I'd struggle to believe you have an independent reason to think that particular quote belongs on that particular page. If you really want to fight the removal from the userpage, feel free to create a subsection here, but I stand by the removal. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 17:29, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
      I'm not fighting the removal per se. Just wondering where the boundaries are and if it's wise to have such a boundary. Buffs (talk) 17:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
      The boundary is WP:TBAN. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 19:17, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
      Buffs: In the realm of hypothetical I would presume that if that quote had been on LLW user page for a long time, in a sea of content, pre-existing AN, then it might even still be up today. However, on the other hand, to post that after the TBAN was imposed is nothing other than what can be seen as abject defiance to the ban. But beyond that, it simply violates plain language of the ban, as it applies to all pages (not only articles) broadly related to the topic, so I proffer that Tamzin is clearly in the right here. To your charged statement about if you were to post the same thing to your user page, prior to your statement here and presuming you were not under a TBAN, it would not be questioned one iota. However, as a response to this discussion, it could be construed (but not technically violating) the principles of WP:PROXYING and I would caution against it. Moreover, you reinstating it on LLW talk page would be a far closer in the proximity of violating PROXYING. TiggerJay(talk) 18:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
      The fact that the comment only came after the topic ban is key here. I'm fairly sure I've seen several cases where there's something on an editor's user page which is covered by a topic ban but which no one has said or done anything about because it was there from before the topic ban. In fact I'm fairly sure I even remember a case where someone asked specifically if they could modify or remove something on their user page which related to their talk page which was technically under the topic ban (probably gensex). I think this was allowed especially since it related to their personal life rather than some comment on something, although they were told just this once is best. There might have even been a case where an editor wanted to do some more editing or formatting of something under their topic ban and was either denied or told only this once. IIRC, there was also an editor who was happy to be able to finally change someone on their userpage covered by their topic ban once it was lifted. A topic ban is a topic ban. I'd note that if someone makes an extremely constructive edit to an article that is not covered by WP:BANEX we still treat this as a topic ban violation, although it's something much more beneficial for the project than an editor being able to repost random ramblings about Misplaced Pages they want to share. Nil Einne (talk) 20:31, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Oppose unblock, oppose indef - The topic ban violation was clear cut. Let's hope Lardlegwarmers will read a bit about how to avoid topic ban violations, or else indef block is not too far for them. Lorstaking (talk) 16:19, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Oppose unblock, extend block indefinitely - Lardle should try to demonstrate good behavior on another wiki for six months before asking for a SO. Let's hope that this user should handle contentious topics carefully in the future. Ahri Boy (talk) 18:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Oppose unblock but no reason to indef, a block has already been imposed. If the user continues to violate the TBAN, than a longer block might be warranted. JayCubby 02:43, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

    Comments from involved editors

    • Going to open a new subsection here since I've made comments to Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory two weeks ago. I wish I could say I was surprised that this ended in tears but that would be untrue (though I did have some hopes the comment a month ago indicating they were aware pro-fringe POV-pushing was sactionable was a signal they were intending to modify their behaviour). As bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez points out, making thinly veiled attacks is not exactly the type of thing looked favourably upon in an unblock request. Nor is making polemical statements on one's user page, whether within the scope of the ban or not, likely to convince the community of one's inclination and ability to be a productive editor. Lardlegwarmers, if you do really want to return to editing, especially if you want to appeal your topic ban in 6 months or a year, I would strongly advise reading Misplaced Pages:Guide to appealing blocks and following the advice there, especially WP:NOTTHEM. Complaining about Hob's conduct won't help you here, because the block (and it's a rather short one) and ban are about you, not Hob. Given your comment that apparently two wrongs make a right, I had hoped that you were already also considering your own behaviour, but I would like to make it very clear: taking the role of one of the "wrongs" to address someone else's "borderline uncivil" behaviour is not itself considered acceptable behaviour. Whether Hob crosses the line is on them, but what you do is entirely on you. Alpha3031 (tc) 07:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    • As I was involved in the discussion to topic ban LLW I think I count as an involved editor. With that said I would discourage an early lifting of this block, which seems appropriate considering that LLW's response to the topic ban was to immediately violate the topic ban. Simonm223 (talk) 13:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
      Also, perhaps LLW wasn't aware of this, but people who aren't uninvolved administrators aren't generally supposed to put comments into the "results" section of an AE filing. Simonm223 (talk) 13:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    • I was there.. Three thousand ye-- No. More like one, two days ago. I seriously believe Lard Leg Warmers is one of two situations: 1: WP:CIR and unable to understand the concepts of medical science as if they were a Facebook mother invested in "essential oils" and "holistic medicine" rather than trusting medical and scientific experts; 2: WP:NOTHERE and simply f**king with us for no good reason and leading us around, and around, and around, and around, and around the bend because they get a rise out of it. Either way, my advice: don't get led around the bend, advise indef block for either WP:CIR or WP:NOTHERE. BarntToust 16:38, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    BarntToust, those kinds of personal assumptions about their character are unnecessary to this discussion. Instead of speculation on who they are elsewhere, let's just focus on their behavior on Misplaced Pages. Liz 06:45, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Usage of 'Notable people' vis-a-vis 'Notable person' in section headers

    This is not an administrative issue. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


    In the course of editing numerous articles, I have come across the header featuring 'notable people' when there is only one person and have therefore modified the grammar.

    I recently had another editor come behind me and revert one such edit on the grounds that things have always been done this way, regardless of the number of notables for a given locale, which makes little sense to me. Is this really policy? Hushpuckena (talk) 16:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

    This seems like a question for WP:MOS, not WP:AN as it doesn't involve administrator actions. AN isn't a general Help forum for questions about editing. You could even try asking at the Teahouse or the Help Desk. Liz 19:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Reporting Administrator Abuse

    I'm going to do the OP a favor and close this with no action against them. Essentially, the OP's misbehavior was pointed out by Acalamari and the OP is trying to present it as Acalamri's misbehavior. If another administrator thinks sanctions against the OP are warranted, that's up to them.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


    User:Acalamari is abusing his moderator powers in order to post unconstructive comments on talk pages, specifically when we were talking about if we should delete the US 2028 election or not, he said "that Drumpf supporters want there to be no more elections so they can remain in power forever doesn't mean we adhere to their delusions by deleting articles here". This is clearly unconstructive, and treating the talk page as a forum. I didn't know he was a moderator when I was removing his comment, and now he left all of these messages on my page and is saying I'm the real vandal here. TopVat19sEver (talk) 22:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

    So there's two things here.
    • First, TopVat19sEver, you removed other users comments from a talk page (not allowed). A user voicing their opinion is not vandalism, not in the slightest. If you have a problem with what another user has said on the talkpage, rather than removing their comment (which is only allowed in very specific situations), you should bring it for discussion at an appropriate noticeboard, or preferably ask them to change their own comment.
    • Second, Acalamari, could you please refrain from calling people "Drumpf supporters" and casting aspersions on the reasons for nominating an article for deletion? While you're entitled to your opinions, that's borderline (at best) incivility, especially when you call them "delusional".
    If both users agree to accept what they did wrong here and move forward, I don't think any further action is necessary. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 22:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    Ok, I'm newer to Misplaced Pages, I understand what you are saying, my train of thought was, "this comment looks like vandalism, vandalism on Misplaced Pages is removed, therefore remove". I didn't know that they don't do that for talk pages. Thank you my friend. TopVat19sEver (talk) 22:59, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    Vandalism has a very specific definition on Misplaced Pages - see this page for more information on what is not vandalism. Merely calling people names and/or being uncivil, while against the rules, is not vandalism. There are proper processes for handling other rule violations (such as asking someone to edit their own comments, or asking a noticeboard for help) such as those, but they are decidedly not vandalism. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 23:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    Ok thank you for telling me TopVat19sEver (talk) 23:02, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    Where are the diffs? M.Bitton (talk) 22:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Okay, I've looked into this. And...surprise surprise, TopVat19sEver was the one who origially removed Aclamari's !vote while the AfD was still open . Yes, about a day after the AfD was closed, Aclamari reverted this removal , which is technically "editing a closed AfD" but I would say they were entirely within their rights to revert a bad removal. And now, suddenly, today, two months later, as their first edit after having done that improper removal, TopVat19sEver goes back to the AfD and removes Aclamari's !vote again , which Aclamari - entirely rightfully - reverted , and then TopVat19sEver comes here to cry "admin abuse", when no administrative abilities were used at all in this whole mess. Could Aclamari have used more moderate language in their initial !vote? Yeah maybe, but it was no violation at all, and the only thing needed here is a WP:BOOMERANG or at least a {{trout}} for TopVat19sEver. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Ban appeal from Rathfelder

    Rathfelder has submitted the following ban appeal on their talk page and asked me to copy it here:

    I realise that what I did was wrong - more wrong than I thought it was at the time. The circumstances which led me to edit pages where I was conflicted are not likely to recur. I accept that I was wrong to create sockpuppets and I apologise. I was involved in a dispute with my employers and it was very wrong of me to use Misplaced Pages as part of that. I did that really because I was trying to defend the work I had done for the Socialist Health Association for the previous 20 years. I did a lot of edits on that page, but they were, until the last few, about the history of the organisation, mostly adding to its list of distinguished members - largely before I was involved with it, and mostly before I was born. They were not at all controversial. I was unfairly sacked and my opponents started using Misplaced Pages against me. The row got into the media. I accept that I should not have done that. I should have resisted the temptation to use Misplaced Pages in the dispute.
    I have spent 2 years working on Simple English and Wikimedia. I have not set up any sockpuppets or edited anything where I had conflicts. I plan to continue with Wikimedia, as there is plenty there to keep me busy, but I would like to be able, in particular, to add pictures to articles - now I have found my way round the enormous Wikimedia resource. I also sometimes come across articles in English[REDACTED] which need amendment.

    Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 17:02, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

    • Question during the January 2024 unblock request Rathfelder said they would be willing to accept a restriction on editing articles related to BLPs or healthcare orgs. Are they still willing to accept those edit restrictions if they are un-banned? Furthermore, in January 2024 there was, at the time, no evidence of any further socking. Can we confirm that good behaviour has continued? Simonm223 (talk) 17:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Support They have been a very productive contributor at the Simple English Misplaced Pages, and it has definitely been long enough for the standard offer. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:33, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
      To opposers: Would a TBAN from BLPs solve the issues you mention? I understand why some may be hesitant to unban, but they have been a very productive contributor on other wikis. I think that they would be a productive contributor if we simply give them a second chance. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:49, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Oppose as disingenuous. The circumstances which led me to edit pages where I was conflicted are not likely to recur: obviously it's reassuring to hear this, but there is no acceptance of personal responsibility. "The circumstances made me do it" is not a defence, or explanation. Likewise, I was involved in a dispute with my employers and it was very wrong of me to use Misplaced Pages as part of that does not do the facts justice. Rathfelder literally socked in order to be able to call a real life opponent a "swivel-eyed middle-aged conspiracy theorist", in wikivoice with a misattributed op-ed quote. Difficult to imagine an editor of >half a million edits not knowing attribution requirements for BLPs. In fact, on investigation, they obviously do, as the adding of a {{BLP sources}} template indicates. If there's a Holy Trinity of wrong doing of things that damage the project the most, it's socking,vote stacking and deliberate BlP violations. These things are most dangerous to the project: they erode the trust between editors and the integrity of the consensus-driven decision making process and put WP at risk of at least public embarrassment if not a lawsuit. All of which Rathfelder did. All of which this appeal seems to attempt to explain away by "circumstances". I'm the first to offer rope when deserved, but such a glossing ban appeal, combined with it all happening only a couple of years ago, sets off more alarm bells than the Great Fire of London. There's no need for groveling, just an indication of self-knowledge and actual change. Serial (speculates here) 12:01, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
      I haven't yet looked into this enough to express an opinion, but I would point out that the "swivel-eyed middle-aged conspiracy theorist" quote was attributed in text to The Times, so was not in wikivoice. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
      Thanks for drawing my attention; I've clarified my comment. Serial (speculates here) 16:00, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Oppose insufficient contrition and reflection on their frankly very serious misconduct. As Serial has said, they created an a attack page with very serious BLP vios using sockpuppets, you can't just handwave that away. Hemiauchenia (talk) 12:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Oppose - My opinion is that editing pages to attack one's real life opponents isn't something you can just come back from, especially when you abusively socked and votestacked in addition. Please stick to editing other Wikis. - The literary leader of the age 15:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Support I don't often choose to comment on unblock requests but every day I come across past productive work done by Rathfelder when I'm working with categories which is how I'm familiar with their immense contributions to this project. They are responsible for a sizeable percentage of our category creation and have over a half million edits credited to this account. If it has been over a year since their last appeal (check), they haven't been socking (check), they have been productive on other Wikimedia projects (check) and they acknowledge their mistakes (check), then I believe they should be given another chance. It sounds like this was a specific incident in their life that happened several years ago that is unlikely to be repeated. Remember, indefinite is not infinite. And if you reject this appeal, I'm just wondering what exactly are you expecting to see in a future request that would lead you to accept it? Or is this indefinite block actually a forever block? Liz 18:27, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Support. Serial Number 54129 points to the quote from the piece by Sarah Baxter as the most damning part of his evidence, but Baxter was deputy editor of The Times when she wrote the article, so it was reasonable to say that that newspaper said that. It may, of course, not be the best way to word things but we don't ban people for that. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:49, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
      No, I point to far more tahn just that: I point to a refusal to adhere to neutrality in preference for an entire section reading like a hit piece; there were no redeeming features presented, or alternative interpretations suggested. Instead, a Jewish guy was literally called an antisemite, on Misplaced Pages, for Rathfelder's own ends. The quote from Baxter was merely an example, but the whole section was of that ilk. Correct, we don't ban people for poor expression. We do ban people for deliberately flaunting fundamental policy and attacking living people. It is also insufficient that they have done good work in the past, per Liz; it's not mitigating. Ironically their is a current arbcom case in which some of the most knowledgeable editors in the field are getting topic banned due to behavioral issues. The same principal applies here. Serial (speculates here) 20:34, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Oppose - The attack page, undisclosed COI, and sockpuppetry were serious offenses. Sometimes it takes a long time to regain trust. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:49, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Support; willing to allow this editor another chance, hoping they'll understand that the community's tolerance is pretty much gone for any future problems. Rathfelder, if this is successful, when you're finding articles in English[REDACTED] which need amendment, I'd advise making it your default setting to open a talk section before making edits if there's any possibility the edit could be objectionable to anyone. Valereee (talk) 15:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Support. The arguments to maintain the ban seem to be mostly "He did some really bad stuff". I agree that he did. Personal attacks are bad. Socking is bad. Using[REDACTED] to prosecute real-life battles is bad. But I'm concerned about statements such as Hemiauchenia's "insufficient contrition and reflection" (although they are certainly entitled to express that opinion). We're not looking for self-flagilation here, nor are we looking for great works of literature as apologies. Our criteria for re-entry into the community isn't "Has never done anything really bad". It's "Understands what they did that was bad and has given credible assurances that it won't happen again", and I think we have those. Robert McClenon says "Sometimes it takes a long time to regain trust". Which is true, but this has been a bit over two years. That's a long time in my book. And it's not like they've gone away for two years and come back out of the blue; they've been contributing productively on other projects, so we have tangible evidence that they're capable of producing good work. RoySmith (talk) 16:35, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
      People implicitly understand that Jytdog will probably never be unbanned from Misplaced Pages because his act of phoning up a fellow user he was in conflict with was a severe and inexcusable breach of decorum. I think that Rathfelder's breach was on par with that of Jytdogs. People using their position on Misplaced Pages to write attack pages of living people is a huge violation of Misplaced Pages's standards. It's not just some minor misconduct like youthful vandalism or minor socking where someone can just brush it off as "whoopsie, my bad" and be relatively easily unblocked. Stuff like this brings the whole encyclopedia into disrepute. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:45, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Support I find RoySmith's articulation much more convincing. We don't need to have a concept of unforgivable sins here. And this applies to everyone. * Pppery * it has begun... 18:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Support per Pppeery-- Deepfriedokra (talk) 20:28, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
    • Support per Liz and Roysmith. While Rathfelder's misconduct was quite severe, it was an anomaly in a long, active, and productive editing career here; and his activity at Simple as continued that pattern. Unlike Serial, I do see understanding and regret, which they are *amplifying* rather than *replacing* with the assurance that the circumstances under which the misconduct arose are unlikely to repeat. So - worth another go, I think. No opinion whether a TBAN of some sort should be imposed; if I were Rathfelder, I would stay away from BLPs for some time anyway. Martinp (talk) 23:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

    Appealing April 4 2024, indefinite WP:CUP ban and indefinite 1-nomination GAN limit

    Consensus to lift this ban will not develop. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:02, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


    At User_talk:TonyTheTiger#Topic_bans, I was instructed by closer User:Ingenuity that I could appeal these in a year and it has been 9.5 months. I am appealing because the CUP entry deadline is traditionally January 31. See Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/2020 signups through Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/2024 signups. This year the Misplaced Pages:WikiCup/2025 signups verbiage says "The competition will begin on 1 January 2025 and signups will continue throughout the year". I am just noticing the new language as I am putting this appeal in. Nonetheless, I am requesting time off for good behavior on the ban.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:52, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

    Oppose The utter cluelessness of this appeal is more than enough reason not to do this. I was going to write more but decided that coaching you on how to be less clueless is not in the project's best interest. You've been here long enough that you should be able to see for yourself how terrible this appeal is. Beeblebrox 19:02, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
    Oppose and recommend we disallow any further appeals for another year. I'm concerned otherwise we'll just be back here in April. --Yamla (talk) 19:14, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
    Oppose for now It's pretty clear that most people in that discussion were supporting an indef ban from the Cup, not an 8-month ban. This appeal doesn't address people's concerns with Tony's editing relating to the Cup, so should be denied. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:16, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
    Oppose The original discussion wasn't linked, it can be found here. At that place it is very clear that here is almost unanimous support for an indefinite ban on participation in the WikiCup, so, no, this appeal should not be passed. It is, honestly, astonishing that TonyTheTiger has been here very nearly two decades but hasn't taken on board the way the community works ~ Lindsay 19:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
    Oppose for no rational that they understand why they were banned or what even led to their ban, and rather simply a sentiment of "I really want to participate". Please understand that your ban was indefinite, so the one year appeal opportunity is your potential opportunity "time off for good behavior". TiggerJay(talk) 19:24, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
    Oppose. Appealing early on the basis that you won't be able to sign up to do the thing you were banned from doing is certainly a unique take. ♠PMC(talk) 21:03, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Requesting info

    Steve Quinn is trout trouted for bringing this to AN. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:58, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


    Hello. I have come across several image files and the U.S. Gov. PD licensing seems to be incorrect. Four of these images and possibly another one could be copyright violations - if I can figure out how to find this type of information on their websites. However, since I am unable to find that information at this moment, I am wondering which group of Misplaced Pages editors work on this sort of thing so that maybe I can get some help with this. I will post the files here for information purposes. Also, there may be more copyright violations by this particular editor who seems to have a propensity for downloading image files. Below are the files:

    1. File:AL-Cattlemen-2022-approved-passenger-768x376.jpg
    2. File:AL-Ducks-Unlimited-2022-768x370.jpg
    3. File:AmateurRadAZ.jpg
    4. File:AppalachianTN.jpg
    5. File:Acplate.jpg

    Further comment: The above TN file - File:AppalachianTN.jpg - is covered by the TN.GOV "linking policy" and can be found here. So this Misplaced Pages image file is still not licensed appropriately, although I have no idea what the correct Misplaced Pages licensing would be.

    I will notify the editor who downloaded these files that I have opened a discussion here. Well, now that I have taken it this far, the editor in question is: Brian.S.W (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). However, the above image files might be too stale to be considered for any action. I leave that up to the Admins. If you look on their talk page, they have previously been blocked for copyright violations. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 20:59, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

    As you can see they've already been tagged for a deletion discussion yesterday, so there is no need to have a difference notice board also working on it. TiggerJay(talk) 21:21, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Please Help Me!

    Hi there, I'm Arav200 and I'm not a new at english Misplaced Pages, Previously I'm editing from Bhairava7 but due to my old account (Bhairava7) and it's attached gmail are protected from 2 Factor Authication, so, I'm unable to access my account,Please help me and If administrator transfer userright from my old account to Arav200 then It 'll be helpful for me otherwise after my old account permission will be removed due to after Inactive and I create this account through WP:ACC due to Skipcptcha restrictions.Happy editing Aarav200 (talk) 12:14, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

     Confirmed to Bhairava7. --Yamla (talk) 12:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
    Hmmm. I was a bit surprised about the English, but it is similar to previous edits from the old account ( ). I have noted the connection on the two accounts' user pages, but I'd like to try requesting 2FA removal before giving up and transferring the permissions. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 16:49, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
    Bhairava7 / Aarav200, please contact ca@wikimedia.org from the e-mail address you have used for the Bhairava7 account. Please describe the problem and request the removal of two-factor authentication from your account. See meta:Help:Two-factor_authentication#Recovering_from_a_lost_or_broken_authentication_device for details. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 16:56, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
    I didn't able to access my also gmail (who attached from old account) due to 2:FA protection,then I was created new account with new gmail for re-contribution on Misplaced Pages. :(Happy editing Aarav200 (talk) 17:39, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
    Please try the following steps to regain access to your Gmail account: https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/7299973 ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:52, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
    I don't know if it is much useful but I can verify that he is indeed Bhairava7 as I contacted him over at discord personally. The AP (talk) 18:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
    I was emailed about this. Given Yamla's CheckUser result, I don't think that there is any reasonable doubt that it is the same person operating both accounts. While they may be able to recover the account from T&S, I feel like it is a bit unnecessary to force them to go through that route as it is ultimately their choice whether they want to recover the account or create another one (even if I personally have a bias for recovering). I was going to transfer the permissions over, but saw this thread, so didn't follow through with it. Sdrqaz (talk) 19:03, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

    @ToBeFree and Sdrqaz:,I also tried as per the link given by ToBeFree but I am not able to recover or access my Gmail... It would be better if I give up the desire to contribute to Misplaced Pages... I am also trying my best... If both are recovered then it will be good... Please forgive me but I will take full care that such mistake does not happen again in future... If possible, please transfer the rights of my old mentioned account to my new account because I've feel more stress at this time.Happy editing Aarav200 (talk) 20:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

    I will transfer them over, given that it has been unsuccessful. I also think that this route is kinder. If T&S disables 2FA on your old account and you would like to go back to using it, please let me know. Sdrqaz (talk) 02:52, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

    BAG nomination

    Hi! I have nominated myself for BAG membership. Your comments would be appreciated on the nomination page. Thanks! – DreamRimmer (talk) 14:03, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

    I need help from an admin - Urgent

    I'm not sure about oranges from Jaffa, but there's a pack of blocks from Misplaced Pages here. - The Bushranger One ping only 17:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


    Dear Misplaced Pages Team,

    I need an urgent help concerning a page and information about my project, I'd appreciate if a[REDACTED] admin can contact me to help.

    Many thanks, Mohammed Mohamugha1 (talk) 17:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

    There's not enough information here for anyone to do anything. Please tell us what the problem is and what help you need. You probably want to read WP:COI prior to doing anything further, though, just in case you've been violating our guidelines around conflicts of interest. --Yamla (talk) 17:14, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
    What's the issue? voorts (talk/contributions) 17:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
    This account probably needs blocking. Sean.hoyland (talk) 17:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
     Done voorts (talk/contributions) 17:22, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
    Relevant article:
    OP possibly using multiple accounts:
    DMacks (talk) 17:23, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
    MohammedAlmughanni blocked as a sock. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Khabib Nurmagomedov French page modified by 92.184.106.82 to edit origin as Algerian

    fr.wiki is thataway. → - The Bushranger One ping only 21:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


    Modifications history shows the following IP 92.184.106.82 made numerous edits to Khabib Nurmagomedov's French[REDACTED] page to include false information around his nationality, background and place of birth among other edits.This IP needs to be blocked and banned from editing. Lebronzejames999 (talk) 18:14, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

    You need to contact the French Misplaced Pages. This is en.wikipedia.org and we only have say over what happens here on the English WIkipedia. --Yamla (talk) 18:14, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
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    EncycloDeterminate unblocked

    The Arbitration Committee has resolved that:

    Following an appeal, the Arbitration Committee repeals the Oversight block of EncycloDeterminate (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), as it is no longer necessary.

    For the Arbitration Committee, theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 22:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

    Discuss this at: Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard § EncycloDeterminate unblocked

    Permission request

    WP:LTA. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
    No. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

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    I am User:CFA's legitimate alt account for WP:AWB editing at high volume. Please add extended confirmed to my account. Thank you CFA (AWB) (talk) 04:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

    Looks like we’ve got another @CFA impersonator here. If by some unlikely chance you are actually CFA, then you can make a request while logged in as CFA. Otherwise you will be blocked as before… nice try… TiggerJay(talk) 04:47, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
    @Liz here is another CFA imposter for you. Cheers! TiggerJay(talk) 05:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
    I indeffed CFA (AWB) (talk · contribs). Johnuniq (talk) 05:11, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
    I can't believe they are so dumb they tried doing the same scam two nights in a row. The previous attempt was removed from this noticeboard but it had a link listing about 20 CFA-related imposter accounts. Liz 05:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
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    Proposed community ban of Marginataen

    COMMUNITY BAN IMPOSED This clearly fall sunder the except in cases where there is limited opposition and the outcome is obvious after 24 hours condition of WP:CBAN. Accordingly, Marginataen is, by the consensus of the Misplaced Pages community, banned from en.wiki. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

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    Marginataen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) This user has been indefblocked twice for various issues over the years (and is subject to a long-term block on the wiki of their native language), and two days after their last unblock, they were blocked for a week for mass-changes to date formats without consensus, as discussed at ANI. Well they've gone back to more unwarranted mass-date format changes like this; their last hundred edits at the time of writing are a good sampler. Despite being explicitly told that English variety/date formats are set per article, not per topic, they have continued to use topic similarity as a justification for their mass-editing; I was going to send them my own warning about this but the discovery of this message tipped me over into submitting a ban request.

    They clearly have extreme "I didn't hear that" problems with their editing pattern; also the idea of a non-native speaker of English trying to police/standardise the use of English variety templates on Misplaced Pages does not sit well with me. I have undone many of their most recent edits, some of which introduced Manual of Style violations of their own. Furthermore, in the light of this AN discussion (that wasn't actionable) about their interest in right-wing topics, perhaps their creation of the spin-off article Post-2012 legal history of Anders Breivik might need to be looked into. In short, I'm not sure what benefit is being gained by this user's continued presence on this project. Graham87 (talk) 06:14, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

    (Will abstain as I hope no one will require sanctions and I am pretty clearly involved again despite hoping I wouldn't have to be, but just wanted to make clear on my own edits that if I made any errors on the sweep-up, please let me know and I'll fix them. Thanks.) Remsense ‥  06:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
    Support. Doing the exact thing that get that them blocked after being unblocked. I’ll also add that they unilaterally changed articles into British spellings with no explanation or discussion given either. Northern Moonlight 06:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
    20 more edits after the AN notice. Northern Moonlight 18:28, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
    Support pretty clear repeat violations of previous block reasons. Doing enough of this to be disruptive and unproductive, not listening to feedback or starting appropriate discussions. seefooddiet (talk) 09:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
    Support. Might considering a RFC on Meta to globally ban Marginataen in the future. Ahri Boy (talk) 10:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
    Support. Repeatedly making disruptive edits even after having been blocked several times and promising to mend their ways. Økonom (talk) 12:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
    Support. Per proposal. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 15:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
    Support. Don't waste the community's time. ♠PMC(talk) 16:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
    Comment: It might be a good idea to block the known sockpuppets of Marginataen that are not already blocked: Tamborg, Bubfernr, and LatteDK. There may be others that I have missed. HappyBeachDreams (talk) 16:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
    Support. I'm not sure how to deal with this. I guess Marginataen is honestly trying to contribute and collaborate, but... Case in point regarding "I didn't hear that": Remsense recently asked Marginataen to stop mass-tagging articles. Three hours later, Marginataen responded: "Yes, I'll stop mass adding templates". And yet another hour later, Marginataen added these templates to two more articles. It seems that Marginataen didn't understand what Remsense said. P.S.: ...and Marginataen keeps going. Hopeless. Block. — Chrisahn (talk) 18:59, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
    As a purely stopgap measure, I've blocked Marginataen from mainspace for a week to encourage them to respond here. Any admin should feel free to unblock without asking me, if the block becomes no longer necessary. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 20:11, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
    Support - Gotta play by the rules. GoodDay (talk) 20:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
    Support. The continuous disruption far outweighs the minimal content contribution. Brandon (talk) 21:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
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    User:TWC DC1

    Warned, then sockblocked. (non-admin closure) JJPMaster (she/they) 21:34, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


    I recommend issuing a warning to User:TWC DC1, as their actions appear to be gaming the system. Despite previous warnings, they have continued this behavior. --SimmeD (talk) 21:29, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

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    G7 request by a blocked account

    G7'd. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


    Can an admin take a look at this? It appears to be a "db-author" request for Draft:Francesca Martí. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:06, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

    Qualifies for G7. Deleted by me. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 02:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
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    Sapo.pt

    Could an admin undelete that redirect? Thanks Nobody (talk) 08:39, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

     Done The Bushranger One ping only 08:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

    Proxy question

    I recently enabled the IP Info widget and have seen a number of IPs that are flagged as proxies (e.g., (Redacted)). Would IPs being flagged with this tool warrant them being blocked? EvergreenFir (talk) 20:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

    You can report IPs that you suspect of being proxies at WP:OP. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:00, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
    @Voorts my question is more that if i see that info in the widget when blocking an IP, is it safe to block it as a proxy? EvergreenFir (talk) 21:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
    I don't think so because I don't think it's 100% accurate. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:12, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
    OK thank you! EvergreenFir (talk) 21:28, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
    @EvergreenFir: Yes, the tool is saying there "In the last x days, at least one person connecting on this IP has been using proxy software y", which is definitely evidence toward an NOP block, but not enough on its own. Also, my understanding of foundation:Legal:Wikimedia IP Information Tool Policy § Use and disclosure of IP information is that you can't publicly say that the tool says a specific IP is a proxy except "as reasonably required in use of the tool", which I would read as allowing you to say that a block was partly based on IP Info without going into further detail, but probably not allowing you to post an example IP and say "the tool says this is a proxy". Out of an abundance of caution I've redacted+revdelled the example you gave above; if I'm misunderstanding the policy, no objection to being reverted. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 21:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
    It's a reason to treat the IP with more suspicion and investigate further but it's not good enough on its own for a block. I think revdel is a bit of an overreaction personally. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
    I think revdel is an over-reaction too, except ... that seems to be exactly what the "rules" for use of the tool say. This should probably be ironed out somewhere. Floquenbeam (talk) 22:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
    I don't even see the reason for redacting, let alone revdel. People can talk about IP addresses, especially in the context of proxies and especially when they aren't connected to an individual user / account. Reaper Eternal (talk) 00:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    Over on WP:OP we openly talk about IPs and proxies, so it doesn't make sense that we couldn't here IMO
    Thank you all for the input. Much appreciated EvergreenFir (talk) 05:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    It's nothing about talking about IPs in general. Obviously saying that an IP is a proxy is fine. It's specifically about saying that IP Info says an IP is a proxy. That's proprietary information from Spur that the WMF licenses on the condition of not disseminating. I also would like more clarity on the scope of that rule, but at least the plain-text reading says we can't attribute information to the tool. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 05:54, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    Ah, thank you for clarifying. Much appreciated EvergreenFir (talk) 06:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

    Undeletion + XML export request

    Please undelete pre-December 2007 revisions of Drum set tuning, use Special:Export, and email me the contents of the XML file you get, per b:WB:UT. JJPMaster (she/they) 04:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

    I've undeleted the history. You can do the export process yourself then. Since it was just a dated PROD and it looks like there were prior copyvio concerns but the copyright holder eventually provided permission, there's no reason the history can't also be available here. * Pppery * it has begun... 04:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
     Done; b:Special:Redirect/logid/5236509. JJPMaster (she/they) 05:08, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

    Misplaced Pages talk:Help desk/Archive 19

    Stray page deleted (non-admin closure) Mlkj (talk) 14:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

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    Perhaps someone could take a look at Misplaced Pages talk:Help desk/Archive 19? It looks like the page was created back in 2008, perhaps by mistake, and has just been "existing" ever since then. The Help Desk archive is currently at 14 pages but eventually it will reach 19; so, at some point, this is going to need to be dealt with. I'm not sure whether the page needs only to be blanked or should be deleted, but the latter will obviously need to be done by an administrator. -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:13, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

     Done I've deleted it (G2, "test page" seemed close enough). - The Bushranger One ping only 07:53, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    Thank you The Bushranger. -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:06, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
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    WP:BLPN closures

    2601AC47 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Deb Matthews (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Ministry of Education (Ontario) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

    2 sections Deb Matthews and Ministry of Education (Ontario)(MoE) were closed by User:2601AC47. The closing user participated in the MoE discussion. I find the MoE closing discussion summary inaccurate and disrespectful. The Deb Matthews closing summary cites the MoE one. I would like a more respectful summary of the discussions.

    I have discussed with the user on User talk:2601AC47#Closures_on_WP:BLPN. The user refused to change the summaries. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

    I would say something similar in a more polite but firm way: go look for sources and add then instead of insisting on deleting the table. You are fighting a losing battle. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    Just so it's clear, are you supporting a change to the closure summaries or opposing it or neutral? Legend of 14 (talk) 19:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    I'm saying that you should withdraw this request and get back to editing. I agree 2601 was rude but that doesn't change the fact that they are correct that you were wrong to try to remove material from both articles. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    I decline your request to withdraw. WP:DEALWITHINCIVIL makes it clear that I can ask for disrespectful comments to be removed. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:53, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    Sure, you can ask, but nobody is going to override this inconsequential close of a discussion where many editors told you that you were wrong. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    I'm not asking for the closes to be overturned, I just asked for the summaries to be changed. Legend of 14 (talk) 20:06, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    So much for cooperation... 2601AC47 (talk·contribs·my rights) Isn't a IP anon 19:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    Snarky remarks really aren't helpful. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    May be I should have more specifically mentioned crying wolf (metaphorically, if there's ever confusion). But moreover, Legend's concerns pertain to the articles that was being edited on (mostly pertaining to Ontario-based agencies), which Legend appeared to ingratiatingly remove some "uncited" information from. I reverted some of them, and as a BLPN watcher, took note of this in trying to explain to them that there are guidelines, especially on citing sources and the MoS. So far, I've not really seen that (prove me wrong). Ultimately, I could suggest to Legend that this is their own responsibility, but alas, thinks that I and some others are at fault here. 2601AC47 (talk·contribs·my rights) Isn't a IP anon 20:13, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    I think you should probably recalibrate how you communicate with other editors. You come across as sometimes rude and dismissive in that discussion. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:15, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    I'm thinking 2601AC47 is coming off a little rude and dismissive in THIS discussion as well. BusterD (talk) 20:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    Yes, they are. But Legend of 14 is coming across as a Wikilawyer rather than a collaborative editor in all of the noticeboard discussions that they have started in the last week or two. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:42, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    They also seem to have a very skewed viewpoint of WP:CIVIL . - The Bushranger One ping only 21:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    I don't know what Legend's background is, but if someone said something like this to me in a professional setting, I'd think they were being rude and unprofessional. It's unfortunate that we've normalized people being jerks on wiki and whenever someone comes to complain about it, the response is usually "well, that's not really that uncivil" or "well, they were being a pain in the ass, so it's justified". voorts (talk/contributions) 21:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    Wasn't your response for me to withdraw this discussion? Seeking clarity. Legend of 14 (talk) 21:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    Yes, I did, because your report was about changing a summary of a discussion in which the outcome would remain the same. Several editors have told you to stop removing uncited, non-controversial material from articles, so you should stop doing that instead of starting an AN discussion about the impolite close of the discussion. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    I have stopped doing that. I respect consensus. I can both ask for the summaries to be respectful and not remove uncited material for which consensus has found to be non-controversial. Legend of 14 (talk) 22:07, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    Now, to hopefully not add on to the pile that this may become, I would try finding consensus in a similar way for what you're editing with regards to the pages of the government agencies. 2601AC47 (talk·contribs·my rights) Isn't a IP anon 22:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    True, Phil, for a relatively new editor, Legend of 14 has brought more cases to noticeboards than some editors do over years spent editing on the project. If this becomes habitual, this approach to getting things done ones way can backfire on an editor. Noticeboards are a place to go to after basic discussion has failed to come to a resolution, not for the kind of disagreements we all face on a regular basis. You don't want to spend more time talking about editing than actually editing. And, for goodness' sake, don't file a complaint over how this complaint is being handled. No need to come to my User talk page to claim I'm being disrespectful, too. Liz 21:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    If you have concerns about me resorting to notice boards, perhaps talk to Adam Bishop who removed 2 discussions from article talk pages, which is why I resorted to WP:BLPN for those articles. For my 5 additions to WP:BLPN on Jan. 17, I truly believed I had no where else to go. Also, so we're clear, can you please clarify if you believe user talk pages are an appropriate place to raise concerns about uncivil conduct like name calling? Legend of 14 (talk) 21:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
    I've made clear at BLPN my issue with your approach here, but I do see your point that you followed the normal instructions only to have two talkpage threads removed. I don't really see why they were removed. @Adam Bishop can you explain? -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 06:37, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
    Seemed like an obvious troll to me, being disruptive and making ridiculous claims just to annoy everyone. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
    Liz this just seems to be par for the course. While Legend make some really good minor positive contributions, they seem to only be here to edit per WP:BIT. As soon as there is some sort of conflict, they have demonstrated that they cannot manage consensus building . Many editors have tried to engage with Legend in good-faith to guide and correct them, but they are very easily offended, resort to novel wiki-lawyering arguments, and thing escalate from there. In good faith I believe they are trying to navigate the system, but keep hitting a wall for various reasons, and thing escalate quickly because of how they choose to handle the confrontation. I believe a mentor for them would be a great route for them, otherwise I am very concerned we're going to continue to see far more heat than light from this contributor. TiggerJay(talk) 15:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
    Yes, that has been my experience. I thought that I was trying to guide and correct this editor, but the response was to accuse me of calling them names. If someone with more patience than I have wants to mentor Legend of 14 then that could be the approach to take, but it would depend on them being willing to listen to advice. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:32, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
    Let's talk about your approach to handling disputes and consensus building.
    Legend of 14 (talk) 15:57, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
    To me, characterizing this statement as "shaming me for challenging your AfD" supports Tiggerjay's summary above. The other diffs show civil attempts to help you understand the culture on Misplaced Pages. Schazjmd (talk) 16:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
    It is disappointing that the culture is talking down to editors for not being on Misplaced Pages for over a decade and daring to share an opinion, posting repetitive talk page notices for literally no reason, and replying to a request to stop posting on a talk page with a snarky comment. Thank you for clarifying that editors do not deserve equal treatment, and that merit of arguments can be dismissed based on the age of the editor making them. Legend of 14 (talk) 16:37, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
    At this point I'm just going to leave, because has been made clear by this discussion and other thread, I am not going to be treated with respect. I'm not wanted here, so I'm leaving. Legend of 14 (talk) 16:40, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
    Too much to read. Is this about the wording of the closing statement? GoodDay (talk) 16:43, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
    And about Legend and I over that. Looks like Legend's had enough, anyway (I wish them well elsewhere). 2601AC47 (talk·contribs·my rights) Isn't a IP anon 16:45, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

    How do we handle Israel Palestine new articles created by non ECP editors nowadays?

    For example, Hussein al-Khalil. In theory I think this could be deleted via WP:G5 for violating WP:ARBECR. But is that what we do? Or do we look the other way if the article is OK? Should we just protect it ECP and call it a day?

    Hmm, actually this is an article about a Hezbollah member, not a Hamas member. So does this even fall under the umbrella of Israel Palestine? Thanks in advance for the advice. –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

    Archive bots

    This is not an issue that requires administrative attention. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

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    Is there a way to have a bot archive articles on a page for you? I vaguely recall such a feature.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:53, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

    TonyTheTiger. Maybe you are thinking of meta:InternetArchiveBot#Using the bot? –Novem Linguae (talk) 09:43, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
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    Note of caution on attacks on Misplaced Pages's neutrality.

    We know to keep an eye out for "neturality police" IPs/new editors. Speculation on anything more should be left to the WMF per WP:NOTFORUM (and, indeed, WP:BEANS). - The Bushranger One ping only 01:16, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

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    As observed here, Musk and others now in positions with Trump's admin are calling out Misplaced Pages's "lack of neutrality". At best they are current only calling for trying to defund it, but given a the craziness of the last 48hrs alone, I would not be surprised to see new or IP editors with strong conservative ideals trying to "fix" the neutrality problem. Nothing we haven't seen before but now that these people have a megaphone to state this, the quantity could become elevated. — Masem (t) 00:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

    Do they mean anything by "defund" other than calling for people to stop donating (and haha, good luck with that one, these attacks seem to have resulted in the opposite)? Can Elon and Trump actually try and freeze the Foundation's assets or anything like that? Silverseren 00:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
    Likely not within a legal framework that exists right now... but they could, for example, pressure Congress to pass a new law, or they could attempt to eliminate the safe harbor protections that the WMF (among other organizations) are given from copyright violations, which would allow people to sue for copyvios being displayed at all, no matter how quickly they're removed. And even if they don't try to make it sound legal, they could always just throw another executive order at the wall and see if it sticks - possibly as part of a "burst" like he did within the first 24 hours of his term. This strategy isn't anything new - trying to overload organizations'/lawyers' capabilities to sue to block those orders, and the courts' ability to handle those suits, during which time they can do what they want. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 00:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
    There is a proposed bill going around that would allow non profits to be stripped of that status should they be considered a terrorist org or support terrorism. While what we do is clearly not that, in this new administration, anything goes. However all that is a WMF problem and I assume they are ready to fight.
    My caution here is that we might see new and IP see these calls as dogwhistles to attack WP in other ways, which we as admin and involved editors can take a ton against. — Masem (t) 00:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
    If the US decides to strip WMF's status then, a total and global outrage might happen. Ahri Boy (talk) 00:50, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
    they could attempt to eliminate the safe harbor protections that the WMF (among other organizations) are given from copyright violations Elon Musk definitely doesn't want to be liable every time someone posts a copyright violating image on Twitter, so I doubt that will happen. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:49, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
    I'd say that we probably shouldn't give them ideas for how to attack us. Contrary to what some believe, these are very public noticeboards that are readable to anyone on the Internet. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 01:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Category:
    Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard: Difference between revisions Add topic