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To add the ] and the ] to the list of Hong Kong piers. ] (]) 09:55, 3 October 2021 (UTC) To add the ] and the ] to the list of Hong Kong piers. ] (]) 09:55, 3 October 2021 (UTC)


:Can you just stop edit this template? It is you removed the ] link from the template as vandalism-like reverting the edit by ]. (The link was there in ] before your "constructive" edit) . ] (]) 12:48, 3 October 2021 (UTC) :Can you just stop edit this template? It is you removed the ] link from the template as vandalism-like reverting the edit by ]. (The link was there in ] before your "constructive" edit) . ] (]) 12:48, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

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Requested moved

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. This close is reflective on the like move that was proposed for the category. The discussion was slightly in favor of keeping the old name and there was not a consensus to retain the new name. Hence returning to the old name. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:02, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move.

Template:Guangdong – Hong Kong border crossings → Template:China – Hong Kong border crossings – 17:46, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the recent move from Template:China – Hong Kong border crossings to Template:Guangdong – Hong Kong border crossings. I would agree that the former name was a bit silly, since Hong Kong, after all, a SAR of PRC, and is usually viewed on Chinese maps as one of the 34 province-level units (along with all provinces , autonomous regions, national-level municipalities, and Macao SAR).. The latter name is geographically correct in that the border crossings are physically on the way between HKSAR and Guangdong province. However, what the crossings are really about is the border between two legal domains - i.e. a customs and immigration border, as well as a border separating zones with two legal regimes with respect to various things (such as driving on the right/left). "One country, two systems", as they officially say. There are no "border crossings" like this between. When one crosses the border, one gets a passport stamp from the PRC migration department, not from some provincial Guangdong agency. The construction of the crossing and the modality of their operation were probably negotiated between the HKSAR government and the national government in Beijing, rather than between the HKSAR and Guangdong provincial government. The neidi ("the interior", the mainland China, or whatever you call it), i.e. the area within which the customs, immigration, laws-of-the-road etc. rules set in Beijing operate, is the entity with which HKSAR (or Macao SAR) borders. So I would think something like Template:Mainland China – Hong Kong border crossings would be most appropriate for the template and category in question.

The recent renaming was not an isolated step; there were also similar undiscussed changes within the articles involved, and in the Macao articles and template. This ought to be discussed in a centralized way instead of an edit war. -- Vmenkov (talk) 15:36, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree this could be discussed for a better solution. What I laid out in the last few days is better than what was here before so I hope that can stabilize without the disruption from a banned user (the IP address and one of his current sock usernames).
I do disagree that "Mainland China" is the best name for the template and category. That name works from the intra-country perspective as it differentiates two political jurisdictions, particularly from the POV within HK/MO, but it does not work from a global perspective. Our solution must be NPOV, but politically and geographically accurate. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
The solution I do like is to explain in the text. Use prose to explain in the introduction that it is a Chinese {whatever} between {point a} province and {point b} SAR. That sets up the distinction that it is intra-country, and links appropriately to the political definitions why. Categories and templates can't have that much text in their name, so it is understood it might not represent the complete spectrum of views. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
Well, the term we use does not have to be "mainland China", but when we talk about borders like this, we need to have something that concisely enough expresses the concept of the "territory of PRC other than HKSAR and Macau SAR", or "PRC customs and immigration zone". This is something for which 内地 seems to be used in China commonly enough (and for which "mainland " seems to be a commonly used, non-neologism, English translation). The use of 内地 in China to refer to the "territory of PRC other than HKSAR and Macau SAR" seems to be quite widespread, e.g. in the context of talking about the Gongbei PoE: http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=%E6%8B%B1%E5%8C%97%E5%8F%A3%E5%B2%B8&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&source=hp&q=%22%E6%8B%B1%E5%8C%97%E5%8F%A3%E5%B2%B8%22+%22%E5%86%85%E5%9C%B0%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=ad8d00e26666dd60 Thousands of hits there, including plenty of .gov.cn sites: http://www.google.com/search?q=%E6%8B%B1%E5%8C%97%E5%8F%A3%E5%B2%B8+%E5%86%85%E5%9C%B0+site%3A.gov.cn&hl=en&num=10&lr=&ft=i&cr=&safe=off&tbs= They talk about "内地旅客" (mainland travelers/tourists), 内地居民 (mainland residents), etc. Gongbei itself is described (at the official site of the border inspection office) as "内地与澳门的重要口岸", i.e. "important entry point between the mainland and Macau". So I really don't see anything politically inappropriate (or even PoV in general) about saying 内地/mainland in the context of discussing borders.
I am looking at this official site of the PRC border inspection in Zhuhai. In Chinese they call themselves 珠海出入境边检总站 (literally, something like "Zhuhai entry-exit border inspection general station"), in English, "Zhuhai General Station of Exit and Enter Frontier Inspection of the PRC"). Talking about their role, they say that they are entrusted with "为国把守国门", i.e. "guarding the country's gate". They talk about their role as a national agency, protecting the country, and not the particular province they are in. (So this is different e.g. from fruit-fly quarantine checks between some states of Australia). Nary a word about Guangdong there. So I believe they are very much viewed as part of the nation's external border protection system. (There is, of course, no contradiction between this and the assertion of PRC sovereignty over the SARs; after all, a country may choose to "excise" a particular part of its national territory out of its migration/customs zone for a number of reasons. E.g., the US may have special visa/customs rules for Guam, North Mariana Islands, or Virgin Islands, and have full immigration/customs checks - same as for international flights - for travelers between those places and the US proper.) -- Vmenkov (talk) 18:05, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
I agree mainland is often used for convenience, but when it is more proper, there is often a definition that is quite explicit, for instance the footnotes to treaties and such will define "the customs territory of China". And I still maintain that using mainland in that way is an intra-China usage, Misplaced Pages is written from a global usage.
Another potential outcome is just to delete the template altogether as superfluous to {{Immigration Control Stations in Hong Kong}} (et al for Macau). There is enough overlap already.
More later, the sun came out. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
  • OPPOSE. If you use the name "China - Hong Kong border crossings", are you going to list all the ports in mainland China that can be reached directly from Hong Kong then? The "Guangdong – Hong Kong border crossings" shows the border crossing points (or immigration control points) specifically between Guangdong and Hong Kong in geographic terms; there's nothing wrong with that. STSC (talk) 10:39, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
  • OPPOSE. I'm baffled by the proposed move. The current name appears to be descriptive, precise and unambiguous. I don't see how changing 'Guangdong' for China is an improvement: after all Hong Kong is a part of China; Hong Kong's only physical border with the mainland only exists in Guangdong province. --Ohconfucius 10:21, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
  • support the previous name was descriptive precise and unambiguous. There are no border crossings between Hong Kong and China that don't go through Guangzhou, so that is no more precise. Or for added precision it might as well be renamed Guangdong – New Territories border crossings which is clearly unnecessary. The reason for restoring the name of a week ago is the common names of the territories that the border is between are 'Hong Kong' and 'China'. Many readers may not be familiar with Guangzhou or may know it under a different name (it's not very long ago that 'Canton' was more familiar in English, even in Hong Kong). Few readers will not know what 'China' and 'Hong Kong' refer to so as long as they are vaguely aware of the geography of south China will know which border this concerns.--JohnBlackburnedeeds 01:29, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
    • I guess that what is meant here is Guangdong (province) instead of Guangzhou (city). In fact no border crossing between Hong Kong and China goes through Guangzhou. Or to be accurate, there is one, at the airport. There were ferries between the 2 cities in the past as well, with associated immigration processing. olivier (talk) 16:16, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Support because the border is not merely an issue between a province and Hong Kong. The crossings are staffed by central government officials, not provincial ones. The unique nature of Hong Kong and Macao's political situation means that terms may seem a little strange at times but the proposal more accurately reflects the nature of the crossings, i.e., ones between Hong Kong and the rest of China. —  AjaxSmack  16:37, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Hong Kong is not a sovereign nation and commonly known as part of China (PRC). So that

The title parameter should use which?

  1. Mainland China–Hong Kong SAR border crossings
  2. Mainland China–Hong Kong border crossings
  3. China–Hong Kong border crossings (The current incorrect wording and the wording from stable version prior March 2021)

Matthew hk (talk) 09:01, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Edit protected

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To add the Ocean Terminal and the Kai Tak Cruise Terminal Control Point to the list of Hong Kong piers. 203.145.95.91 (talk) 09:55, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Can you just stop edit this template? It is you removed the Kai Tak Cruise Terminal Control Point link from the template as vandalism-like reverting the edit by user: S 0524. (The link was there in Special:Permalink/1027683925 before your "constructive" edit) . Matthew hk (talk) 12:48, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
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