| Revision as of 22:01, 20 February 2022 editKlõps (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users6,972 edits →Estonia as part of the USSR in infoboxes etc.← Previous edit | Revision as of 01:37, 21 February 2022 edit undoSoman (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, IP block exemptions, Pending changes reviewers93,653 edits →Estonia as part of the USSR in infoboxes etc.: cmtNext edit → | ||
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| :I just don't understand how an encyclopaedia community that has the goal of being a respectable encyclopaedia can treat these pro-Kremlin arguments as factually or morally comparable with undeniable facts of international law and history, and how can they consider the Russian POV as more important than the opinion of pretty much the entire rest of the world. And I don't mean in the context of single edits and single users, I am talking about wider policy. Besides the heavy load of pro-Kremlin users, what stops us in ''forcing'' our facts-based approach over their lies-based approach? If this truly is an encyclopaedia that is based on facts, then facts are what should determine the outcome, not the amount of users who adhere to Soviet whitewashing of history... ] (]) 21:01, 20 February 2022 (UTC) | :I just don't understand how an encyclopaedia community that has the goal of being a respectable encyclopaedia can treat these pro-Kremlin arguments as factually or morally comparable with undeniable facts of international law and history, and how can they consider the Russian POV as more important than the opinion of pretty much the entire rest of the world. And I don't mean in the context of single edits and single users, I am talking about wider policy. Besides the heavy load of pro-Kremlin users, what stops us in ''forcing'' our facts-based approach over their lies-based approach? If this truly is an encyclopaedia that is based on facts, then facts are what should determine the outcome, not the amount of users who adhere to Soviet whitewashing of history... ] (]) 21:01, 20 February 2022 (UTC) | ||
| ::About the community – the edit consensus for years has been to use just Estonia. There's a lot of naive communists and just Soviet fanboys out there, in the west and in Russia. I wouldn't say that they're Russian trolls. Just Estonian community here is quite small, so a lot of vandalizing in Estonian related articles goes unnoticed. I've fixed so much nonsense. In this theme I have fixed a lot of articles where people born in Estonia 1918–1940 have been changed to be born in Soviet Union, where Estonian names have been changed to Russian transliteration (Tynu instead of Tõnu), someone once replaced Estonian to Soviet (Estonian author to Soviet author) and it was many years like this until I noticed, went back to this users edits and changed them back.--] (]) 21:30, 20 February 2022 (UTC) | ::About the community – the edit consensus for years has been to use just Estonia. There's a lot of naive communists and just Soviet fanboys out there, in the west and in Russia. I wouldn't say that they're Russian trolls. Just Estonian community here is quite small, so a lot of vandalizing in Estonian related articles goes unnoticed. I've fixed so much nonsense. In this theme I have fixed a lot of articles where people born in Estonia 1918–1940 have been changed to be born in Soviet Union, where Estonian names have been changed to Russian transliteration (Tynu instead of Tõnu), someone once replaced Estonian to Soviet (Estonian author to Soviet author) and it was many years like this until I noticed, went back to this users edits and changed them back.--] (]) 21:30, 20 February 2022 (UTC) | ||
| Again, arguments about ''de jure'' stuff are irrelevant, since Misplaced Pages isn't a court. As for the comparison with German occupations of WWII, there are slight discrepancies. Germany never annexed Paris. Paris was still located in France throughout the war, even from a German POV. But in areas annexed by Germany, the situation would be different. See for example ], born in ]. A person born in Prague during the war would have been born in the ], as is the case with ]. And so forth. We shouldn't bother about the legalities of government, the factoid that is of interest is to show readers in which settings the article subjected were born in, living in and died in. A hockey player born in the Estonian SSR in the 1970s would have gotten a Soviet birth certificate, attended Soviet schools, most likely had the beginning of his sports career in Soviet clubs, held Soviet citizenship and so forth. Being born in the Soviet Union would have a key biographical detail. The historical revisionism that seeks to pretend the Estonian SSR never existed is a type of nationalist pov-pushing that does help us in building an encyclopedia. --] (]) 01:37, 21 February 2022 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 01:37, 21 February 2022
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Thanks. — Headbomb {κοντριβς – WP Physics} 09:07, 15 March, 2009 (UTC)
Could you please review my article?
Tere! I am a beginner and recently made several articles about Estonian companies, but one of them "in review" since December , and the second one since February . I really want to improve them, so when you get a moment would you mind taking a look at them and tell me what to do next? Any advice would be very useful! Have a wonderful day! Cartifdet (talk) 17:38, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Cartifdet: both drafts are deleted. Not notable companies for enwiki--Estopedist1 (talk) 09:04, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
References
Notability concern with NYYD Ensemble
Moved to Talk:NYYD Ensemble
Rename articles about uezds for consistency
I’m proposing renaming every article in the form of, for example, Akhtyrka Uyezd → Akhtyrka Uezd, to match the spelling of the renamed main article Uezd. Please discuss at talk:Uezd#Rename articles about uezds for consistency. —Michael Z. 22:16, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
Estonia medical cases chart
Other editors might be interested in updating Template:COVID-19 pandemic data/Estonia medical cases chart. The persons who used to edit the template have very little time nowadays to do updates. LSGH (talk) (contributions) 07:09, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
Estonia as part of the USSR in infoboxes etc.
Can someone explain to me the Misplaced Pages logic behind using the Kremlin POV in writing "Estonian SSR" in infoboxes of people born during the Soviet occupation? It is a widely recognized fact of international law that the Soviet rule in Estonia was against international law and therefore legally null and void. It is basically the legal successor of the USSR - Russia - that alone argues for the contrary. What next, do we allow literal Nazis to rewrite articles about WW2 and victims of the Holocaust? Also, why can some totally random sports-related Wikiproject make up its own rules on such an issue that should have a uniform standard all over Misplaced Pages? That standard should be based on facts of history and international law, not on simplistic Kremlin propaganda or what is written in ice hockey databases... H2ppyme (talk) 14:56, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
- There have been numerous and heated discussions on this, see here: Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Baltic states-related articles. However, WP editors could not reach a consensus. --Mindaur (talk) 15:10, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
- There were people that considered the USSR legally illegitimate in its totality (arguing that the 1917 Constituent Assembly was the legitimate authority in Russia). And there are people that consider that the dissolution of the USSR was illegitimate and unconstitutional. There are thousands of other examples, from across the world. Applying arguments on legalities or diplomatic recognition is a dead end for categorization schemes on Misplaced Pages. --Soman (talk) 16:57, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
- @Soman: 1917 has nothing to do with the occupation of the Baltic states -- the countries which Soviets recognized as independent, both de jure and de facto, at that time. P.S. You modified my post by removing the link to the discussion; that is absolutely unacceptable. --Mindaur (talk) 17:19, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
- Apologies for the link removal, I was copy-pasting it to open in another browser window and accidentally hit "c" button one time too much. --Soman (talk) 17:41, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
- @Soman:, this really is not comparable. Estonia was a universally recognized sovereign state - recognized also by Soviet Russia and the later Soviet Union. It was a member of the League of Nations. Estonia remained a de jure sovereign state throughout the Soviet occupation with its foreign legations recognized by most countries that had been independent at the beginning of the Soviet occupation. Later on, Estonia restored its independence and it didn't found a new state. Literally the only relevant source still claiming that the Soviet rule in Estonia was legitimate is the legal successor of the invader - Russia. It really is like having literal Nazis as somehow relevant sources for claiming that the very existence of the Holocaust is contested... H2ppyme (talk) 18:48, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
- @Soman: 1917 has nothing to do with the occupation of the Baltic states -- the countries which Soviets recognized as independent, both de jure and de facto, at that time. P.S. You modified my post by removing the link to the discussion; that is absolutely unacceptable. --Mindaur (talk) 17:19, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
- Legal or illegal isn't important here. How some persons birth death place is named isn't gonna change the history. There are just people who are pushing their political agenda in biography articles. For the modern states the full political names of the countries mostly aren't used. e.g president of china Xi infobox has born Beijing, China, not born Beijing, People's Republic of China. France, Belgium, Denmark etc during German occupation are just writtten Paris, France not Paris, German Military Administration etc. Estonia was Estonia. Should we then change all the people born in free Estonia from Estonia to Republic of Estonia? People born few years or even a day before the end of the occupation don't even have anything do to with soviet union. So why to clutter article with this. If it's noteworthy that these people were born in Soviet Union, then it will be written in prose in the article. And finally there is the anality, like the state names, the political state names had different variations, like the Estonian SSR was renamed to Republic of Estonia in 8 May 1990, but became independent from Soviet Union in 20 August 1991. --Klõps (talk) 21:09, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
- There were people that considered the USSR legally illegitimate in its totality (arguing that the 1917 Constituent Assembly was the legitimate authority in Russia). And there are people that consider that the dissolution of the USSR was illegitimate and unconstitutional. There are thousands of other examples, from across the world. Applying arguments on legalities or diplomatic recognition is a dead end for categorization schemes on Misplaced Pages. --Soman (talk) 16:57, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
Looked into this, and these are again the same users. They have done it before, exactly like this, randomly taking a number of articles and changing Estonia to Estonian SSR. I've spent hours trying to get any logical arguments from them. Nothing. Same old, but the name was this. Strangely they don't have problems with Paris 1940-1944 being written just Paris, France, not Paris, German Military Administration in Belgium and Northern France. They won't fight for Oslo 1940-1945 to be marked as Oslo, Reichskommissariat Norwegen. They aren't even interested changing Estonia 1941–1944 to Reichskommissariat Ostland. They are very specifically only for Baltic states to use Soviet names. I think they are rather some western wannabe communists soviet fanboys, not real Russian trolls, but the the timing of another this kind of massediting, with the events going on in Ukraine is rather telling. -Klõps (talk) 20:40, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
- I just don't understand how an encyclopaedia community that has the goal of being a respectable encyclopaedia can treat these pro-Kremlin arguments as factually or morally comparable with undeniable facts of international law and history, and how can they consider the Russian POV as more important than the opinion of pretty much the entire rest of the world. And I don't mean in the context of single edits and single users, I am talking about wider policy. Besides the heavy load of pro-Kremlin users, what stops us in forcing our facts-based approach over their lies-based approach? If this truly is an encyclopaedia that is based on facts, then facts are what should determine the outcome, not the amount of users who adhere to Soviet whitewashing of history... H2ppyme (talk) 21:01, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
- About the community – the edit consensus for years has been to use just Estonia. There's a lot of naive communists and just Soviet fanboys out there, in the west and in Russia. I wouldn't say that they're Russian trolls. Just Estonian community here is quite small, so a lot of vandalizing in Estonian related articles goes unnoticed. I've fixed so much nonsense. In this theme I have fixed a lot of articles where people born in Estonia 1918–1940 have been changed to be born in Soviet Union, where Estonian names have been changed to Russian transliteration (Tynu instead of Tõnu), someone once replaced Estonian to Soviet (Estonian author to Soviet author) and it was many years like this until I noticed, went back to this users edits and changed them back.--Klõps (talk) 21:30, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
Again, arguments about de jure stuff are irrelevant, since Misplaced Pages isn't a court. As for the comparison with German occupations of WWII, there are slight discrepancies. Germany never annexed Paris. Paris was still located in France throughout the war, even from a German POV. But in areas annexed by Germany, the situation would be different. See for example Yuriy-Yosyp Shulyatytskyi, born in Distrikt Galizien. A person born in Prague during the war would have been born in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, as is the case with Václav Klaus. And so forth. We shouldn't bother about the legalities of government, the factoid that is of interest is to show readers in which settings the article subjected were born in, living in and died in. A hockey player born in the Estonian SSR in the 1970s would have gotten a Soviet birth certificate, attended Soviet schools, most likely had the beginning of his sports career in Soviet clubs, held Soviet citizenship and so forth. Being born in the Soviet Union would have a key biographical detail. The historical revisionism that seeks to pretend the Estonian SSR never existed is a type of nationalist pov-pushing that does help us in building an encyclopedia. --Soman (talk) 01:37, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
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