Talk:Denys Prokopenko: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 04:49, 14 April 2022 editInqvisitor (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users2,835 edits →Karelia ← Previous edit		Revision as of 05:10, 14 April 2022 edit undoMellk (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users61,677 edits →Karelia: re; admin attention of Inqvisitor likely neededNext edit →
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	:::All that matters here is the POV of Denys Prokopenko, nothing else—defintely not your desired debate about the borders of Greater Russia/Soviet Union. It doesn't matter if the person who is the subject of the article thought Vladivostok was their rightful land, if they are the subject of the article that's their opinion to be noted, not a place to debate their POV with counter-views, or erase mention of their view entirely because you disagree with it. I did not add any "personal commentary". You evidently are such a Moscow Kremlin chauvinist that you can't handle the idea of even acknowledging that other people out there might simply hold different geopolitical views than you—as Mr. Prokopenko does! There is, in fact, a territorial dispute—here Denys disagrees with you—whether you, in your supreme arrogance, personally believe it a legitimate view or not.		:::All that matters here is the POV of Denys Prokopenko, nothing else—defintely not your desired debate about the borders of Greater Russia/Soviet Union. It doesn't matter if the person who is the subject of the article thought Vladivostok was their rightful land, if they are the subject of the article that's their opinion to be noted, not a place to debate their POV with counter-views, or erase mention of their view entirely because you disagree with it. I did not add any "personal commentary". You evidently are such a Moscow Kremlin chauvinist that you can't handle the idea of even acknowledging that other people out there might simply hold different geopolitical views than you—as Mr. Prokopenko does! There is, in fact, a territorial dispute—here Denys disagrees with you—whether you, in your supreme arrogance, personally believe it a legitimate view or not.
	:::Once again, this is not a legal debate. This is not about real world diplomacy between Russia and Finland. Some see territories forcibly annexed by Soviet Union after military invasion in 1940s as stolen, as today e.g. Ukraine considers Crimea and more stolen by Russia, and many other countries have people with such views. Perhaps they don't teach anything to reflect badly on hero Stalin in Russian schools, but as a matter of historical fact, the people who populate Russian-annexed Karelia today were moved there after Stalin's genocides, ethnic cleansings, forced population transfers to remove hundreds of thousands of original Finnic Karelian people displaced from their ancestral homeland, replaced with people Stalin moved from elsewhere. So some might say what Russia did there (and similar Russian demographic war crimes in many other places, including Crimea) is even far worse than just stealing the land! Anyway, an independent Karelian nationstate that separated from Russia would not even necessarily have anything to do with the modern country Finland, it may just be an independent Finnic state, like Estonia. (Finnic East Karelian Republic has its own flag after all—on Prokopenko's uniform—not to be confused with the Russian Karelia regional flag). Diplomacy between Moscow and Helsinki is totally besides the point. But anyway this is ''all'' so so so besides the point, getting way off track from what is relevant here, this article is not about irredentism beyond what the article subject thinks on such subjects; if you want to debate geopolitics find a political forum to debate these topics if you wish. But, you do not get to decide what points of view are legitimate or not, nor are you entitled to dictate whether others' opinions are even allowed to be cited and acknowledged in articles that are about them! ] (]) 04:48, 14 April 2022 (UTC)		:::Once again, this is not a legal debate. This is not about real world diplomacy between Russia and Finland. Some see territories forcibly annexed by Soviet Union after military invasion in 1940s as stolen, as today e.g. Ukraine considers Crimea and more stolen by Russia, and many other countries have people with such views. Perhaps they don't teach anything to reflect badly on hero Stalin in Russian schools, but as a matter of historical fact, the people who populate Russian-annexed Karelia today were moved there after Stalin's genocides, ethnic cleansings, forced population transfers to remove hundreds of thousands of original Finnic Karelian people displaced from their ancestral homeland, replaced with people Stalin moved from elsewhere. So some might say what Russia did there (and similar Russian demographic war crimes in many other places, including Crimea) is even far worse than just stealing the land! Anyway, an independent Karelian nationstate that separated from Russia would not even necessarily have anything to do with the modern country Finland, it may just be an independent Finnic state, like Estonia. (Finnic East Karelian Republic has its own flag after all—on Prokopenko's uniform—not to be confused with the Russian Karelia regional flag). Diplomacy between Moscow and Helsinki is totally besides the point. But anyway this is ''all'' so so so besides the point, getting way off track from what is relevant here, this article is not about irredentism beyond what the article subject thinks on such subjects; if you want to debate geopolitics find a political forum to debate these topics if you wish. But, you do not get to decide what points of view are legitimate or not, nor are you entitled to dictate whether others' opinions are even allowed to be cited and acknowledged in articles that are about them! ] (]) 04:48, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
			::::Again, I did not say that Denis Prokopenko's views should not be included. That is fine. But the POV pushing is not acceptable, to pretend that Russia's internationally recognized borders (by the UN and every single sovereign state) do not exist. You are pretending that I only removed his personal views; this is very much false, do not pretend otherwise. You added statements claiming ongoing occupation and desires to "liberate" the region, you did not write these as his personal views, this was your personal commentary. Please do not compare Crimea to Russian Karelia. Crimea is internationally recognized as part of Ukraine (and I wonder how you will spin this as a pro-Kremlin POV). Karelia is internationally recognized as part of Russia. Finland does not have any territorial disputes with Russia, including over Karelia. I do not care about the history, Karelia is internationally recognized as part of Russia. This is an undisputable fact and your feelings over it do not matter, nor does it justify you pushing this POV. I am not sure how many times I have to repeat what I said, it is like talking to a wall and this is ]. I already asked you to stop with the personal attacks and to strikethrough previous personal attacks but you decided to continue. ] is policy, not something optional, so this will likely need administrator attention. ] (]) 05:10, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Revision as of 05:10, 14 April 2022

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Karelia

@Inqvisitor: You call my edit and here "pro-Russia" edits for removing the POV about Russian Karelia being an "ongoing" occupation with people seeking to "liberate" or "free" Russian Karelia. Such statements suggest that Russia is illegally occupying Karelia. That is nonsense, because Russian Karelia is internationally recognized as a part of Russia (unlike Crimea etc) and Finland does not claim any lands from Russia. Are you trying to call the reality "pro-Russia"? Writing about Russian irredentism while promoting Finnish irredentism, this does not belong here. Don't WP:POVPUSH and don't make such comments again. Mellk (talk) 01:53, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Keep your Kremlin POV-pushing elsewhere, not in the mood for this ridiculous rubbish. There was nothing said about "legal" or "illegal" occupation, that doesn't matter, what's legal to one person/country/international institution is illegal to another, and vice versa. Just because you, a biased Russian imperialist, don't personally believe there is any dispute over any territorial claims made by Russia, does not mean they do not exist. There is literally an article about The Karelian question for a reason. What is relevant here is the backstory of Denys Prokopenko, whose grandparents fought in the Winter War against Russian invasion and suffered loss of their ancestral home territory to Russian annexation, and the younger Prokopenko consequently in his own words says he sees his defense of Ukraine as a new front in the same war against Kremlin occupation. From the POV of Prokopenko—the subject of this article—and what he says inspired him to get into his current military: it is very much relevant, interesting, important backstory backstory details that he sees Karelia as his occupied ancestral land (and sees the same threats to Ukraine now), he uses the Nordic cross Finnic Karelian nationalist flag symbol, even sewn onto his uniform. That's what that flag symbolizes, and that's his pertinent belief, regardless of your opinion. There was no reason to remove any of those details except to push a Moscow Kremlin POV—and, indeed, you have been the only one pushing a biased Russian imperialist political POV here, at the expense of the truth, and to the detriment of the quality of the article. Kindly knock it off, please. And don't give me orders, I ain't your serf. Inqvisitor (talk) 03:23, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

May I remind you about WP:NPA. Don't make such baseless personal attacks simply because I removed POV justifying irredentism of Greater Finland. Do not comment on me. You used language that falsely suggested that Russian Karelia is under military occupation. Sorry but there is no territorial dispute over Karelia; the Karelian question article even explicitly mentions that no such dispute exists between the two countries. Debates about potential negotiations is not the same. And as such, Russian Karelia is internationally recognized as part of Russia. what's legal to one person/country/international institution is illegal to another is nonsense, this is based on international law. Opinion about some Karelians on status of Karelia is irrelevant. Do you consider the same for what Crimeans think? I did not say we should not include his opinions about Karelia, but to outright state that Karelia is under "ongoing" occupation is false and using terms such as "liberate" is POV pushing. But sure, international law is just "Moscow Kremlin POV" and "biased Russian imperialist political POV". Do not continue with such personal attacks, I already asked you to not make such comments, yet you doubled down on them. Otherwise I will have to bring this to the attention of administrators. As such, I politely request you to strikethrough your personal attacks. Mellk (talk) 04:07, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Also, this edit is problematic because it is reinstating the personal commentary that you added. This is not mentioned in the source and so does not follow WP:V. Nor does it mention anything about the nationalist view. Mellk (talk) 04:10, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

All that matters here is the POV of Denys Prokopenko, nothing else—defintely not your desired debate about the borders of Greater Russia/Soviet Union. It doesn't matter if the person who is the subject of the article thought Vladivostok was their rightful land, if they are the subject of the article that's their opinion to be noted, not a place to debate their POV with counter-views, or erase mention of their view entirely because you disagree with it. I did not add any "personal commentary". You evidently are such a Moscow Kremlin chauvinist that you can't handle the idea of even acknowledging that other people out there might simply hold different geopolitical views than you—as Mr. Prokopenko does! There is, in fact, a territorial dispute—here Denys disagrees with you—whether you, in your supreme arrogance, personally believe it a legitimate view or not.

Once again, this is not a legal debate. This is not about real world diplomacy between Russia and Finland. Some see territories forcibly annexed by Soviet Union after military invasion in 1940s as stolen, as today e.g. Ukraine considers Crimea and more stolen by Russia, and many other countries have people with such views. Perhaps they don't teach anything to reflect badly on hero Stalin in Russian schools, but as a matter of historical fact, the people who populate Russian-annexed Karelia today were moved there after Stalin's genocides, ethnic cleansings, forced population transfers to remove hundreds of thousands of original Finnic Karelian people displaced from their ancestral homeland, replaced with people Stalin moved from elsewhere. So some might say what Russia did there (and similar Russian demographic war crimes in many other places, including Crimea) is even far worse than just stealing the land! Anyway, an independent Karelian nationstate that separated from Russia would not even necessarily have anything to do with the modern country Finland, it may just be an independent Finnic state, like Estonia. (Finnic East Karelian Republic has its own flag after all—on Prokopenko's uniform—not to be confused with the Russian Karelia regional flag). Diplomacy between Moscow and Helsinki is totally besides the point. But anyway this is all so so so besides the point, getting way off track from what is relevant here, this article is not about irredentism beyond what the article subject thinks on such subjects; if you want to debate geopolitics find a political forum to debate these topics if you wish. But, you do not get to decide what points of view are legitimate or not, nor are you entitled to dictate whether others' opinions are even allowed to be cited and acknowledged in articles that are about them! Inqvisitor (talk) 04:48, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Again, I did not say that Denis Prokopenko's views should not be included. That is fine. But the POV pushing is not acceptable, to pretend that Russia's internationally recognized borders (by the UN and every single sovereign state) do not exist. You are pretending that I only removed his personal views; this is very much false, do not pretend otherwise. You added statements claiming ongoing occupation and desires to "liberate" the region, you did not write these as his personal views, this was your personal commentary. Please do not compare Crimea to Russian Karelia. Crimea is internationally recognized as part of Ukraine (and I wonder how you will spin this as a pro-Kremlin POV). Karelia is internationally recognized as part of Russia. Finland does not have any territorial disputes with Russia, including over Karelia. I do not care about the history, Karelia is internationally recognized as part of Russia. This is an undisputable fact and your feelings over it do not matter, nor does it justify you pushing this POV. I am not sure how many times I have to repeat what I said, it is like talking to a wall and this is WP:TENDENTIOUS. I already asked you to stop with the personal attacks and to strikethrough previous personal attacks but you decided to continue. WP:NPA is policy, not something optional, so this will likely need administrator attention. Mellk (talk) 05:10, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

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