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Inaccurate Information

Hello,

As an individual with Asperger’s Syndrome, and as an individual who has read several comprehensive books on the subject (including book written by Tony Attwood, world expert on Asperger’s Syndrome), I was surprised to find some ‘facts’ here that had absolutely no references and that I had never, ever read in any book (even autobiographies of those with Asperger’s Syndrome). These comments included:

“Lack of appreciation of humor - although they may grasp jokes at an intellectual level, and rarely even excel at making jokes, they fail to appreciate its emotional worth. Sometimes, their smiles and laughter may appear unnatural.”

What? Tony Attwood even said in his book that some with Asperger’s develop a great sense of humor usually based on their realizing that they take many things literally (I know I definitely fit this category). In addition, many people with Asperger’s, including myself, love and appreciate hearing jokes just as much as any one else.

“Lack of embarrassment - although persons with AS have an intellectual understanding of shame and embarrassment, they are unable to grasp concepts on an emotional level.”

Also untrue, many, if not most, are able to emotionally grasp the concept of embarrassment (even intuitively from feeling the emotion at an early age), though they may not express the emotion in a conventional way.

“Financial imprudence - although some people with AS can manage their own finances, they usually appear to be careless or even reckless, with money. In most cases they require the assistance of others in managing their own finances and making financial decisions. “

I do not have the slightest idea as to were whoever posted this received the idea from. I have never read it in any book or on the web, and people I know with Asperger’s are by far some of the most financially responsible people I have ever met, due to their above average ability to keep emotions and reason separate and their ease with doing what they feel is morally correct.

Willis first hand experience. I deleted all four of those. But I'd like to discuss it. Sykee 07:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I would like to see those restored, but perhaps rephrased. Please keep in mind that not all people with AS will exhibit these traits. They're simply more common with AS, and can be used to help diagnose AS if an individual has a mix of a few of them. These come from the DSM-IV manual, which is what psychologists rely on to make a diagnosis. The criteria, including the ones listed above, have been compiled from decades of case studies and extensive research by doctors and universities. As more is learned about AS, its entry in the DSM-IV will be updated; so by no means is the material in the DSM-IV written in stone. However, it is a reliable resource, and its information is useful to the article.

To address each statement individually:

"Lack of appreciation of humor" - Not every person with AS will exhibit this. However, a large enough number of people with AS exhibit this to a certain degree, which makes this useful to the article. I'll admit that the phrasing isn't very good, though. It should instead clearly describe how many people with AS have a tendancy to take jokes in the literal sense, which you articulated so well in your comment. Although the initial description that you deleted sort of alluded to that fact, its wording was quite poor. The diagnostic language of it was of a subjective (somewhat judgmental) nature, where information on Misplaced Pages needs to be objective and neutral in nature. It could also be noted that people with AS tend to favor unconventional, abstract humor. For example, an abstract word association or word play might be absolutely hilarious to the person with AS, while everyone else isn't even able to make the connection. (In this case, it's the people without AS who seem to lack the appreciation of humor!)

"Lack of embarrassment" - Again, not every person with AS will exhibit this. Here also, the phrasing was very poor - this time to the degree of actually describing autism, rather than AS. The description was also extremely generalized and simplistic. Here again your comment added much improved information, which you worded in a much better way.

"Financial imprudence" - Here again, not every person with AS will exhibit this. However, this description was fairly acceptable. What it lacks is the explanation of why some people with AS might be a bit wreckless financially. Most people with AS are passionate about specific things here and there, and sometimes this leads to impulsive shopping sprees. Conversely, I know of AS savants who are financial wizards at the stock market, where it's extremely profitable to keep emotions completely out of it. Ironically, they tend to be indifferent over losing a thousand dollars at it in a single day, but will often become very upset over losing a dollar bill somewhere. The second sentence about most cases needing assistance in financial matters likely doesn't belong there. Although it's true for severe cases of AS, that comment is generalizinga bit too much. It would be better to rephrase it so say "In many cases..." instead. There are plenty of people out there without AS who manage their finances much worse than a few people I know who have AS!

What was the fourth item that you had deleted? Thanks!

Hopefully that helps answer a few things, and will provide some positive input in improving this section of the article. If someone wants to rephrase the deleted information so that it's appropriate for the article and up to Misplaced Pages standards, be my guest! --Dulcimerist 01:24, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Please be kind

• If anyone has read any of the below statements, you might see a glimpse of our lives. We Aspies know it's a struggle, but honestly, I remember the words of my patron, St. Francis de Sales; "Be who you are, and be it well." Remember to take your comments here with a "c'est la vie" attitude and remember, we are all in this together, to build Misplaced Pages, not bring it down.--wpktsfs 04:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

People with AS

Has there ever been succesful people with AS?C.bonnick 21:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely, see the bottom section of the article. Also, a major mathematical breakthrough was awarded the Field's Medal (like a Nobel in Math) in 2006.

There is speculation that historical figures have had it like einstein, mozart, thomas jefferson. Of course you can't diagnose dead people so who knows.

(Sorry for the commentary wiki-friends, couldn't resist.)141.149.168.130 00:43, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Glenn Gould, the Canadian pianist, is largely suspected of having had it. And having read a LOT about him, there is no doubt in my mind that that was the case. --DearPrudence 02:25, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you it really helped, so people with AS can be successful. You have put a smile on my face. C.bonnick 10:42, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

This probably ranks as WP:OR but I have a mild form of AS and I am the Chief Architect for my company, a known national expert in my field, have three kids (one of which with severe AS) who I think (hope, pray) I am raising well, and have been married for 15 years mostly successfully. LOL. Alex Jackl 14:39, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes but can you source that? Especially the kids? Birth certificates perhaps ;-b

CeilingCrash 00:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay- now that WAS funny! Alex Jackl 06:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I have a parent in my classroom who is a respected board member and works for the EPA. His daughter is lovely, he's happily married, and he has AS. I also know people with AS who have graduated college and others who are very successful in the field of IT.

Just out of curiosity, wasn't Einstein thought to have AS? What about Bill Gates? I remember reading about him showing signs; unfortunately I can't source this, but it's a suggestion. -=PhotoN=- 15:06, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Jeopardy champion Ken Jennings has a mild form of AS, and was very successful with that! (Of course, memorizing trivia tends to be a strong suit among many people with AS!) Another success would be Kurt Cobain of the band Nirvana; who has been speculated to have had a form of AS, which was unfortunately misdiagnosed while he was alive. Inventor and electricity/radio pioneer Nicola Tesla definitely had AS, and we benefit from his discoveries and inventions each day! --Dulcimerist 22:46, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Archimedes, brilliant mathematician and scientist of antiquity, may have had AS. His later counterpart Sir Isacc Newton may have as well. These might be too speculative to post, however. --Dulcimerist 23:29, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I've never heard of Archimedes possibly having it - interesting. If you have a good source that references the speculation, he'd be a good one to add. (Newton is already mentioned in the article, by the way.) --DearPrudence 23:45, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

On a cool note, the Archimedes Project at Stanford's Center for the Study of Language and Information is an autism project named after him. Archimedes' death during the Roman invasion of his town is one of the more convincing pieces of evidence, as he reprimanded a fully-armed Roman soldier who was standing on his science project. The soldier killed him for it, even though all of the soldiers were ordered to bring the famous Archimedes back to Rome alive so that Rome could benefit by his genius. Conference Presentations: Mark Blaxill, MBA Archimedes also exhibited behavior that was so out of the ordinary that historians felt impelled to record it, which can only be explained by AS. "The Genetics OF Genius" by David T. Lykken, Professor of Psychology, University of Minnesota, illustrates this quite well. --Dulcimerist 02:01, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Nicola Tesla is very noteworthy and should definitely be listed, as he did far more to pioneer electricity than anyone else. "Autism & The Internet" and Famous Aspies are good sources for him. That second link also list some additional noteworthies. --Dulcimerist 02:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Proposal for a new section

In the spirit of positivity, I propose a new section: Aspergers' traits in fiction.

The section would include Aspergers behaviors and characteristics as plot devices, as well as fictional characters that most people identify as exemplifying Aspergian personality traits -- as long as specific behaviors can be cited as typifying "Aspergers syndrome". This would allow incorporation of both pop and historical fiction that employs Aspergian behavior as a device to move a plot forwards (or is that backwards? <-- har (aspie humor) :> ). Note that Aspergers traits are often used in fiction as a positive form of comic relief.

For example:

• Characters
  • Data, Star Trek TNG: Incapable of expressing emotion, speaks in a monotone, uses symbolic logic to systemize understanding of the universe, conflicted when faced with decisions that involve violating a rule of logic, faithful to the goals of his captain, good parent to his cat Spot {ta da!}, literal and honest to a fault, attempts at humor are generally perceived as highly esoteric, (... etc.)
  • Napolean Dynamite: Literal thinker who misses communication cues by responding to questions literally. Example: Trisha and Napoleon have the following phone conversation: "Hi, is Napoleon there?" "Yes." "Can I talk to him?" "You already are!".
  • Michael Raines, Raines: Police detective who solves crime by mentally creating a 5D model of the victim, but who, to all appearances, seems to be talking to himself creating concern among his colleagues.
  • ... etc.
• Plot devices
  • (Any Shakespearean comedy, for example), (point of Aspie behavior creating comic recursion)
  • ... etc.

Would this be acceptable? (btw, next time you're watching tv, watch for an Aspie character or characteristic and add it on) --Renice 13:50, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

My sense is, on the one hand, this would be harmless in the encyclopedic sense in that there is no possibility it would misinform (given the appropriate overture), and that it might be illustrative. It also sounds like great fun.

If there are objections to it being a tail-section on this article, I'd still like to see it as a new article, for the latter reason given above.

I have to look this up, but i think i recall in Heinlein's Time Enough For Love, somebody says to the main character, "OK - I'll get back to you." So the protagonist sits down, and simply waits - and is prepared to wait for years - until the other person literally "gets back to" him. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CeilingCrash (talk • contribs).

I would be in support of such a section, although perhaps with a better title. If we look in the Down syndrome article there is a similar section titled "portrayal in fiction". I imagine there are other articles with similar sections also, and it is important to attempt a bit of consistency, so perhaps using a similar title would be a good idea? --Dreaded Walrus 20:03, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a fun idea but I am wary of speculative diagnosing of fictional characters with AS. AS, like many similar, umm.. ,conditions :-) is a spectrum disorder. Many traits defined as AS are shared by other things and I that makes me wary of this section. I am not speaking against it just that we should be cautious about what we put in it. For what that is worth.Alex Jackl 14:39, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that's why it's important to make it clear that these are depictions of SYMPTOMS or TRAITS, not of someone with a diagnosis. That in itself may make the nature of a 'diagnosis' a little clearer. --Renice 15:35, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the big distinction is, while downs syndrome is (i suppose) more-or-less comprehensible to people (at least in outward appearance), it is very difficult to walk away from a discription of Asperger's with any sense of what aspergian thought is *like*.

It is essentially a lack of 'integration functions'. Information is not automatically weaved together and synthesized. For example, NT's have face-recognition algorithms that take a million pixels of data and do an instant face lookup. Aspie's in general don't have that capacity.

Those integrating algorithms make lots of probabilistic *assumptions*, which are usually true, but not always. For instance, a pair of twins could trip up an NT easily, whereas an Aspie is much more likely to notice a small scar on their left cheek has disappeared.

Aspies sort of come at everything with a completely clean slate. I think it is more precise to say they are "context-blind" rather than "mind-blind". This is usually a problem for the aspie, but sometimes creative leaps lie beyond the scope of accustomed context, so it has its advantages. This clean slate - lack of context - can be a) misunderstanding, or b) humorous, or c) revolutionary.

To illustrate, a) Once my girlfriend asked me, "do you like spanish olives with egg salad?"

I said, "Oh yes. Very nice." Later I took a bite of my sandwich, "Eeeeeeeeeeew!"

She said, what's wrong?

I said, "I didn't know you meant IN my egg salad !!" (OK this is a little bit of B) Virtually anyone else would have concluded with 99.99% certainty what she really meant. The aspie brain doesn't make that assumption and has no way of knowing that others would."

b) A classic joke has a historian and a mathematician on a plane. The historian looks out and sees a brown cow, and writes dutifully in his notebook, "There is a brown cow in Nebraska."

The mathematician sees the same thing and says, "there exists at least one cow currently in Nebraska, it is brown on top. Unless I'm dreaming. Or you are."

c) The notions of time and space were unchanged since euclid. They were considered to be undefinable for the most part, they could be described, but thought to be first terms inherent to existence itself. It is very Aspergian for Einstein to say,

"Time is what a clock measures." From first term to the behavior of a machine.

"Space is what a ruler measures." Again, to a simpler machine.

Then he asked the question, "If i have two identical clocks, keep one here, and mail another one to pittsburg and have it returned here, will they read the same?" His genius was not that he thought of a new thing - it was that he UNthought something. He UNthought the implicit context of time and space, threw it out, and asked "what *instruments* are we talking about? And what exactly do we think they do? Are we sure?"

An NT's context-engine is unconscious, so he doesn't know what it is he has assumed. The aspie doesn't have one.

--- This also, perhaps, accounts for the fact we tend to write ... er ... much longer descriptions of things. We can't guess what context is normally understood.

Anyway, I think this can be conveyed best by example, and the examples are often funny.

CeilingCrash 20:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I would support this as well. Well-known examples/metaphors for AS would be quite useful to help illustrate to people what AS is like. Each example would have to be explained, of course. An obvious one would be Rain Man, from the movie "Rain Man," who was character portrayed as having AS. Ted Danson's character from the television series "Becker" might also fit here. --Dulcimerist 02:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

suggest removing remnant of Family section

the all-too-familiar verifiable source problem :

The referred source, kathy marshak, has a degree from the Fielding Institute, a distance-learning school http://www.fielding.edu/, a PhD in Psychology.

Their PhD in Psychology degrees are not accredited by the American Psychological Association (APA), in contrast to their PhD in Clinical Psychology, which is accredited by the APA.

This seems a grey area I don't really know what to make of.

More to the point, her website makes no reference to anything she's published in an academic source, so the section seems a wash.

Thoughts?

As an aside, she is part of the aston-linehan-singer mutual endorsement ring dedicated to eradicating the scourge of scientific research in our lifetime. She is similarly possessed of the same disturbing fixation on MALES with asperger's.

 from her FAQ on Asperger's :   http://www.kmarshack.com/therapy/asperger/faq.html 

 " What kind of parents are people with Asperger Syndrome?
   We are just learning about this tragedy from adults coming forward
   to tell about being raised by AS parents"

CeilingCrash 10:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

• I will go with consensus on this one but I do not like this section. I am biased though as an AS parent with three children, one of which has AS. I am behind removing it unless someone comes up with more reliable citations Alex Jackl 14:41, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, I see your point CeilingCrash! Hers is very linear thinking -- might as well ask, "What kind of parents are tragically inept people?" (<-- I think I'm going to have to write that up, it makes me laugh too hard :> ) --Renice 15:48, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

• Agreed. As an AS raised by an AS, I think that anyone who believes we make bad parents is perhaps in need of diagnosis themselves. Neither me or my (Neurotypical) borhter have any problems with my Mother, we are in fact much closer to her than many of our peers are to their parents. In fact, I found the whole 'less signs of affection' thing completely untrue and offensive. Is anything, me and my mother are more affectionate towards eachother than our peers. This person doesn;t know what they're talking about, IMHO 24.86.59.67 05:34, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Section suggestion : Emerging evidence for long-term improvement

What do y'all think about a new section concerning the long term development of children on the spectrum?

"One central finding of the study, said Dr. Coplan, is that children in the normal range of intelligence (an IQ of 70 or above) show significant improvement in their ASD symptoms over time. "We can offer the hopeful message to parents that many children with ASD will improve as part of the natural course of the condition," he said. This finding reinforced impressions by Dr. Coplan and many previous researchers about clinical outcomes for children with ASD."

http://stokes.chop.edu/publications/press/?ID=181

This is one of a crop of such studies, serious long-term data collection (in the US anyway) didn't start until about 10 years,and is now coming to fruition.

This information also serves to make people weary of the snake-oil cures which may be taking credit for this natural progression.

CeilingCrash 19:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Neurological or genetic causes

Someone mentioned in this section that there have been scientific studies on the causes of autism. None of these seem to be in the article yet, so I did some Googling and came up with these potential sources:

http://www.wpic.pitt.edu/research/CeFAR/default.htm http://www.cmu.edu/PR/releases04/040727_autism.html http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1235486

Could these be useful? Lostvoice 09:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I Support adding this information, together with my above suggestion about long-term prognosis. It seems we need to expand the Research andOther causes section, as there is mountains of results flooding in. Specifically, the genetic link to autism appears irrefutable now; the distinction between HFA and Asperger's is becoming sharper (thanx to Volks at Yale).

In general, the new research has taken a turn for the hard sciences, and I think it would be a great improvement to flesh that out here.

CeilingCrash

I Support this as well. It's been proven through studies that people with AS are more likely to have children with AS, which would point to a genetic link. I'm not as well-read on the genetic studies; but if you can cite some, this would be extremely useful information for this article. --Dulcimerist 22:52, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Neurodiversity : not Judy Singer's word after all

In this talk section (above somewhere), Judy Singer claims she coined the term "neurodiversity." The wiki article on Neurodiversity credits her for this in a paper published in 1999.

I discovered her claim is false, that it was coined in 1998 by Harvey Blume. I have corrected the article to give him proper credit. If anyone (especially Ms Singer) wishes to comment, please see Talk:Neurodiversity.

CeilingCrash 22:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

"Removing" Asperger's

I just wanted to keep the language moderated and avoiding the "getting rid of" kind of conversation. I think talking about removing Asperger's is overly negative. I am not fixed on this. Alex Jackl 12:32, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Pharma BS

All of this could by BS launched by "Big Pharma". See Jeff Rense's website for more about "diseases". 205.240.144.220 06:14, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Helping "late bloomers"?

What do you do when you're an adult and find out that every problem described with AS nails every major problem in your own life? Rhudi 04:09, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Realize that you've probably figured out how to survive anyway and laugh at people that need all the stuff we don't? I mean honestly, there's not much to do when we're diagnosed early, forget about later on in life. Unless you're incredibly stupid you'll have known for awhile you;re odd and been coping with it. The fact that now we can be diagnosed just means it's easier for NTs to sort out the world.

I disagree with the above person. I found out only after my son (who has it more dramatically than I do in spades) was diagnosed and his neurologist recommended I get myself tested. It helped me develop some more sophisticated and dramatically successful coping mechanisms. I got a lot of peace of mind. Alex Jackl 16:35, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Get yourself tested. If the test is positive, as Alex mentions, that information can lead to valuable coping skills and explanations. In some cases, medication is also helpful. Getting tested, especially for an adult, takes a bit of doing - I would recommend an expert in autistic disorders, no general practitioner or psychiatrist should moonlight in Asperger's by checking off DSM symptoms - and they may not know that.

Most of all, the test can lead to self-acceptance and self-understanding. And what's better than that?

"Autism rocks." CeilingCrash 23:35, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I was tested by an expert in adult Asperger's recommended by my son's neurologist. She was very useful. She also told me I fit the criterion but I had a very, very mild case. She recommended doing nothing different than I had been doing... Alex Jackl 04:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I hate to jump ship but early on i was diagnosed with aspergers 3 times. Amazingly i outgrew it. I am no longer diagnosed with anything and i live a completely uneventful life. That someone can be told "you are very special you are slightly autistic" when you were young and put into therapy and special classrooms and everything, ande then those same people who forces you into special treatment say: whoops we screwed up, sorry for depriving you of a normal life" is just wrong.66.176.172.119 00:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Diagnosed with AS (Alien species)

I have just been diagnosed at the age of 48, I know I have always been different but never really knew the reason why. I decided to get diagnosed for the sake of my children, I have decided not to label them yet - but by understanding myself and the condition, I can help them and at last I can start to understand why I have such a fast complex brain, it’s like it’s been feed all the wrong information all its life and now I can set it, me and my family free to be ourselves. Why am I the one everyone remembers for all the wrong reasons – I like my world it’s fun, please try and accept me for who I am because it’s you who excepts me to comfort and fit into your world. AF Bradley NZ 10 May 2007

Earlier I put AS 'advanced species' have changed to Alien Species as do not want to be disrespectful to anyone else. We are all different, that's what makes our world so interesting. I first put advanced to make myself feel better, as over the years for no reason at times, have been put down and felt like an alien to this planet - so Alien is a more appropriate word to use. I have more than just Aspergers Syndrome, but that is apart of what I'am and getting diagnosed was the best thing I have ever done and is really helping me to understand myself, help my children and hopefully others.

AssBurgers?

Should the article include anything about the "AssBurgers" thing? Mike(Talk)/(Cont) 00:52, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I do hope you are talking about pronunciation66.176.172.119 00:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

If you are referring simply to how AS is often referred to that way as a joke (or whatever you want to call it), then no. It's not important enough to mention. --DearPrudence 04:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

If you're refering to the pronunciation that I agree the phoentic pronunciation should be included. However that's it? -- Rehnn83 09:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Mentioning this might actually be useful. This homophone is very confusing, especially since most people are completely oblivious to the term "Asperger's." For example, a young man I know was trying to explain to his teacher that he had AS, and only referred to it as "Asperger's." The teacher thought that he was saying "Ass Burgers," and sent him to the principal's office. Sure, the term "Ass Burgers" has been used as a joke on television shows (i.e. Becker), but this homophone issue goes beyond a simple joke. The non-joke side of it might warrant it being mentioned briefly in the article. --Dulcimerist 23:13, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Citation? Are you kidding?

With regard to this:

Children with AS can learn to manage their differences, but they may continue to find social situations and personal relationships challenging. Adults with AS are able to work successfully in mainstream jobs and live an independent life.

needing a citation. Should I just upload a scan of one of my payslips? Damburger 00:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree, Damburger. --DearPrudence 01:32, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this as well. The notable people with AS section in the article is plenty citation in itself to support the statements. --Dulcimerist 23:16, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Becker and Gersten quote

Can someone please tell me who supplied the following. The quote isnt referenced and I would like s source. MY email is joelbeasant@hotmail.com

In 1982 Becker and Gersten found that ABA techniques were indeed educationally beneficial because they provide "motivational programs based on positive reinforcement such as a token system and a systematic task analysis for developing academic skills". ABA also promotes the foundation for academic and living skills. Once certain skills have been acquired, it is possible through ABA to generalize these skills and add new skills to the "existing repertoire through various techniques of shaping, extinction, backward chaining, and prompting". (Schreibman, 1975, Sulzer & Mayer, 1972, Wolery et al, 1988)

Changes

I made some additions based on my own personal experience with AS. I hope it is OK. Sykee 14:51, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

One may check-Lyons & Fitzgerald's, Humor in Autism and Asperger Syndrome (Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders, Volume 34).

Removing paragraph on partner/family issues

This material and these sources have been repeatedly rejected in this discussion as being non credible references. Material from academic/refereed sources is welcome. CeilingCrash 18:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Ceiling Crash. I drafted and placed that (non-offensive, and extremely brief) paragraph, and was not aware of earlier rejections of this subject. I might add that I am not associated with the usual protagonists you have it in for, and am working from my own position as one of the said family members. Also, I do not know the Misplaced Pages criteria for credible reference, and do not have time to delve into ways this matter can legitimately be presented, BUT find it hard to believe that Maxine Aston's pages (for example) do not qualify as credible reference for a non-clinical issue http://www.maxineaston.co.uk/workshop/HoC_next.shtml. I will say for the record that your not offering an alternative suggestion on how these widely recognized family issues can be included in the entry, and simply deleting it, is suspect. In my mind it amounts to unreasonable censure of negatives as you don't offer a reasonable alternative path. I hope you can at least consider drafting something 'you' feel sits well with your vision of how the syndrome might affect family members. Sincerely. soulgany

Reversal of Symptoms

This contribution should be deleted. If this contribution is kept, it should have a note appended stating that the author has NO credentials in mental health, and that it is only one man's opinion and has no scientific data to back it up. He admits this on his blog page at blogspot.com. James howard 37 02:45, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Curious

I am curious as to why this is up for cleanup. If it was a featured article and is "one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community", then why would it require cleanup? I, personally, see nowhere in the article that cleanup is necessary. If it is, please let me know where and I will glad to cleanup where needed, but I think the article is great as is. Take Care....NeutralHomer 03:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and full disclosure, I, myself, have Aspergers. - NeutralHomer 03:56, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I moved the existing cleanup tag from one section of the article to the top of the article, because of citations needed, listiness, handwaving original research, unformatted refs, external jumps, non-reliable sources, and more. The FAR was less than a year ago, and the article has completely fallen apart again, so will need to come up for its third FAR soon, if the article isn't restored to status. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:59, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I just noticed you said you'd work on it, so I'll give you a list:

• The lead should be a compelling, stand-alone summary of the article, covering all the important points. See WP:LEAD.
• Numerous uncited entire sections and bits of uncited text have been added since the FAR.
• Over time, I've noticed changes to cited text, so that I doubt that the text is accurate to the sources citing it, and the entire article probably needs to be checked for accuracy versus the sources. This is particularly a concern with the Attwood sources, but many others as well. Text changes have been made without concern for whether they conform to the original source.
• Careful formatting work on the Footnotes has been lost; several of the new sources are of dubious reliability, and are unformatted (see WP:CITE/ES). There are some completely unformatted new refs, and blogs aren't reliable sources.
• Original research appears to have been added, as there are many unsourced statements of opinion.
• WP:MEDMOS might help guide your work, although this article might not exactly conform to every point.
• The External links have again grown to an External link farm, and need to be pruned per WP:EL, WP:NOT. There are commercial links in the external links as well.
• There is a lack of high-quality sourcing (hint: if you don't see a PMID, it might not be peer reviewed).
• There are mixed reference styles, with some references added in the inline Harvard style, while most of the article uses cite.php.
• Speculation about deceased people who might have had AS isn't sourced to highest-quality sources, and a lot of it should probably be deleted (see WP:MEDMOS).
• There are cite needed tags, and wikilinking needs.
• There are external jumps, and URLs inserted directly into the text.
• There is choppy prose with several one-sentence paragraphs.
• When the article completed FAR, it had been converted to good prose; several lists have now been added, and the article has become listy. (The list of 21 things is an example.)
• If it has to go to FAR again, it should have images.
• The cleanup tag was originally on Reversing of symptoms, so it needs work.

The article has barely squeaked through FAR twice, and it looks like the people who used to watch over the article are no longer watching it, and it's been trashed pretty well. I hope it can be cleaned up without a third FAR, but a large effort is needed, because I suspect most text will have to be checked against refs. You can see the version that passed FAR by clicking on the oldid in ArticleHistory; that will give you an idea of what has been changed or added. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:11, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

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