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Tkorrovi et al - wrongly categorised ref in proposed decision

I refer you to this. For your attention, thanks. Paul Beardsell 21:50, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

NO RESPONSE. Paul Beardsell 02:57, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

-- Grunt 🇪🇺 05:00, 2005 Jun 3 (UTC)

Thank you. But you seem to have made the smallest possible change to the finding of fact. A better change would have been to reflect that Tkorrovi has attacked/insulted more than just me. I am not accused of issuing personal attacks/insults at anybody else. I note that you have also changed your view on the period of my suggesting banning from the article. That this is coincidental is true for both meanings of the word, I hope, as I suggest that as the facts unfold, some of the extreme positions taken before perusal of the evidence by memebers of the ArbCom should fade away. I think it should be becoming obvious that it is in Tkorrovi's character to take offense too easily and inappropriately. Paul Beardsell 20:09, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Then, where is this hidden place, where are all my not yet found personal attacks against you?Tkorrovi 20:39, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If you are going to openly insult each other, please keep it off of my talk page. Thank you. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 22:05, 2005 Jun 3 (UTC)

As per above large font admonishment, continued at end of page. Paul Beardsell 09:43, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Calgary Wikipedian Meet Invite

I'm inviting all the Wikipedians who are listed as Calgarians to get together for a casual, in-person, chat about Misplaced Pages and whatever else strikes our fancy.

I've got a Meetup.com group set up that we can use to organize local meets. (the fees are covered for a while by my Meetup+ membership carrying over into the new fee regime.) Please sign up for that group, or post a message to my talk letting me know if/when you might be available for a Wikipedian meet. --GrantNeufeld 02:19, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Your comments on RfAr

Grunt, on WP:RfAr you state that Cyprus reunification referendum, 2004 has seen "rapid fire revert warring by both parties". Please note that the reversions between myself and (logged-in) Argyrosargyrou complied with the 3RR on my side but reached at least 7 reverts in a 24 hour period for Argyrosargyrou. This resulted in a 24 hr block for Argyrosargyrou, his second for violating the 3RR. The subsequent reverts by Argyrosargyrou were made through open proxies in an attempt to get around his block. As such, these edits were outside the scope of the 3RR ("Use of sockpuppets (multiple accounts) is not a legitimate way to avoid this limit" - WP:3RR) and thus could legitimately be reverted without invoking the 3RR. You might want to reconsider your implication that both parties need enjoining. I should also add that the reason why there are so many different IP addresses involved is because I was blocking each open proxy as Argyrosargyrou exposed it - he was actually doing quite a useful job of identifying proxies to block. (That's why I didn't simply protect the article.) -- ChrisO 20:57, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There are other ways you could have dealt with this situation - revert warring is an utterly unacceptable answer whatever the circumstances. It would not be difficult to call community attention to the issue and have others either revert on your behalf or have the page protected such that anonymous users cannot revert the page. I would be tempted to suggest that all of the pages involved in the dispute should be protected immediately such that there can be no amount of revert warring at all until the dispute is resolved. I understand your desire to block abusive proxy addresses, but revert warring is not the way to find out what they are. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 20:59, 2005 Jun 2 (UTC)

It's only "revert warring" if the 3RR applies. If an article is being repeatedly reverted from ordinary vandalism, calling it a "revert war" isn't appropriate and the 3RR clearly doesn't apply. Nor does it appear to apply to reverting sockpuppet attempts to evade the 3RR or edits by legitimately blocked users - "Use of sockpuppets (multiple accounts) is not a legitimate way to avoid this limit" and "Users who are banned from editing or temporarily subject to a legitimate block may not use sock puppets to circumvent this" (WP:3RR and WP:SOCK respectively). The wording makes clear that such edits are thus illegitimate, and the 3RR cannot apply to illegitimate edits. If you disagree you might want to consider a different form of words for the policies that I just cited.

As for resolving the dispute, let's face it - Argyrosargyrou has already demonstrated that he's willing to use open proxies to avoid any action you or I or the ArbCom might take. We can't protect pages indefinitely from abusive users. The only alternative is to flush open proxies into the open, ban them as they appear and revert any damage they might have done - which is exactly what's happened in this instance. -- ChrisO 21:14, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

(Added): In addition to the above, I think this settles it: "Reverts: All edits by a banned user made since their ban, regardless of their merits, may be reverted by any user. As the banned user is not authorised to make those edits, there is no need to discuss them prior to reversion." (Misplaced Pages:Banning policy) -- ChrisO 22:11, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I just want to add that Chris O was supported by myself and Snchduer in the reverts. I believe once Argyrosargyrou crossed the line by using open proxies, Chris O was completely right to revert and block each proxy Argyrosargyrou was using. Anyone who has come across Argyrosargyrou will know he gives complete disregard to anything which stops him spreading his nationalist articles. I have emailed and left messages with other admins with either no response or a token gesture. I commend Chris O for taking any possible preventative action without giving Argyrosargyrou the space to breathe. Its the only way to deal with users like him. --E.A 23:39, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Tkorrovi et al: Drowning the witch

Grunt, you have asserted above that Tkorrovi and I insult each other on your Talk page and you ask us to stop. Similarly you find in the proposed decision that me arguing my case is evidence of the "crime" of which I am accused.

These following questions lead directly to the heart of the matter: (1) In what way is my above comment an "insult" to Tkorrovi? (2) And, if it is, could you please suggest a form of words that would let me express the above sentiment in a way which would not be "insulting"? (3) If I am accused of personal insult/attack, how am I supposed to defend myself without discussing the character and behaviour of my accuser if, in so doing, as you find here and in the proposed decision, it leads me to be accused, Catch 22 style, of the very crime I am trying to discuss? Paul Beardsell 09:32, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It is difficult to defend myself against Tkorrovi's accusations when so doing causes me to commit the same "crime" again. This is like the old Middle Ages drowning the witch test. Paul Beardsell 09:32, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Personal attack is stating a supposed flaw in person.Tkorrovi 13:37, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)