Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 06:39, 16 October 2007

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Editors can post questions here about whether given sources are reliable, and editors interested in sourcing issues will answer. Please post new topics in a new section. If you are satisfied with a response, please tag your thread at the top with {{resolved}}.

The guideline that most directly relates to whether a given source is reliable is Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. The policies that most directly relate are: Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, Misplaced Pages:No original research and Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. For questions about the sourcing policy, please go to WT:V.

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Counterpunch

Recently, a feature article by Debbie Nathan appearing in Counterpunch was challenged as an unreliable source in a biographical article. The article is factual journalism, not editorial content, and the challenger has not stated specific concrete objections to the article, since there may be BLP issues. Nathan is a feature writer for New York Magazine, as well as a published author. I don't personally see the sourcing problem, but I respect the editor who's raising the objection, so I wanted to get the views of more editors. --Ssbohio 02:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

After reading CounterPunch, I'm not really sure if they're really a reliable source. They have an editorial staff of two people, with the intent to bring "stories that the corporate press never prints". Just my .02 though Corpx 06:53, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

After reading some of their articles, they write from the partisan fringe position that thinks the Democrats are insufficiently liberal. That fringe really exists, but it is very much a minority position. Using Counterpunch as a source is likely to suffer from WP:UNDUE problems if not handled carefully. As Corpx pointed out, they don't have a great depth of review in the editorial department, and the combination of lesser review, a muckraking attitude, and a strong political bias makes them somewhat suspect as a source. GRBerry 23:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but is this an article where that bias towards the left makes a sufficient difference? I'm not that sure. Hornplease 02:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

In this case, CounterPoint published a feature story from Debbie Nathan, a mainstream journalist (New York) and author. Her work has also appeared or been referenced in Slate, Gawker, and other publications. My view is that the distinction between a news article and editorial content is important in determining whether the source is reliable, and, in this case, Nathan's article is not advocating a political position, but covering her subject in more depth & with a more critical eye. It's a crime story, and none of those involved are "political people," for lack of a better term. The slant of the publication would be more important if we were referencing its editorials rather than its factual articles. --Ssbohio 14:45, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Just a reminder. Counterpunch is of course a muck-racking, if highly informed, minor netmag, but it has actually proved far more reliable than the New York Times and the Washington Post on the Iraqi war. It is for example perhaps the only Western newspaper to have a Western reporter in Iraq who doesn't rely on field informants, but risks his neck to travel all over the country and provide eye-witness accounts of local conditions. The NYTs and many others, as far as I know, have given up on this as too high a risk for their inhouse professionals. It specializes in publishing things that the major news outlets ignore. It is certainly a better source than Fox News, or any corporative media operation controlled by Rupert Murdoch. Both those middle-of-the-road centralist and unquestionably reliable sources, as defined by fame and print-run I suppose, had to backtrack, apologize, release staff writers, and generally readjust much of their editorializing when it came out that very little, if any of their reporting, proved to be reliable. Judith Miller got into hot water for proving to be a handy syphon for administration officials deliberately seeding false information on Saddam's arms. Most of the usually unquestioned 'reliable sources' in the newspaper world have terrible records both for accuracy and reliability in that extensive period. We still cite these as 'reliable sources' and worry the death over Counterpunch. I don't think it matters much where a comment appears, as long as the person quoted or writing has a very good track record as a serious and attentive analyst. I don't read many Counterpunch articles, but usually one a day is written by a very good inside source, or analyst with a proven track record and high academic or career standing, to warrant close reading. This is of course, and will remain, a minority view.Nishidani 16:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

To clarify: In this case, the article appeared in the print version of Counterpunch, not the online version. Because the print version is sold by subscription, a lot of their "best" articles don't appear in the Web version at all. Also, it's important to keep in mind that the author of this piece, Debbie Nathan, has a very good reputation as a journalist and is something of an expert, having written a book on the same subject. --Ssbohio 19:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, I did some further research... Debbie Nathan is particularly reputable on the topic of this article, child sexual abuse, having written a book on the subject that's been published by a major house. The book, Satan's Silence: Ritual Abuse and the Making of a Modern American Witch Hunt, is well-regarded by reviewers such as Philip Jenkins, Prof. Robert A. Baker, the Philadelphia Inquirer, the Women's Review of Books, The American Enterprise, the San Diego Union-Tribune, The Nation, and the Brisbane, Australia Sunday Mail. It is considered a seminal work on the topic. It is required reading in Prof. Cecil Greek's graduate seminar in the University of South Florida's college of criminology. I believe that Nathan is a bona fide specialist in this field. Considering the evidence, how does that affect her reliability as a source? Please let me know what you think of the critical and academic opinions of Nathan and her work on this topic. --Ssbohio 04:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that Nathan is a credible source, but not someone who is so reliable that the editorial practices of the publication don't need to be looked at as well. Yes, Nathan mitigates in favor of inclusion. Counterpunch mostly mitigates against. The compromise reached on the article (Which was Justin Berry, btw) seems to me sensible - include the information, but source it explicitly in the text to Counterpunch. In the case of more inflammatory or negative information, however, that position needs to be re-evaluated. As the policy says, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Phil Sandifer 14:41, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

The Abusive Hosts Blocking List

Is The Abusive Hosts Blocking List a reliable source? Does citing it violate WP:BLP?

I came here to complain about the same site. Here is their page on Barbara Schwarz, which is being used as a "reliable source" for her article: AHBL: Barbara Schwarz. The last paragraph is a disclaimer saying that they just repeat what other people have said, including Usenet posts -- which in Barbara's case are the main issue. Steve Dufour 23:26, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Please bear in mind that their listing of her contains two parts; One explaining why she's listed and the second is a FAQ about who she is. We are not citing their FAQ, but instead the fact that she has been listed by them for her behavior related to usenet. Abusive Hosts Blocking List, more about them. Anynobody 00:19, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

They might be a worthwhile organization. However I don't think they can be a source for information on a living person when they just invite people to post their opinions and don't take responsibility for them. Steve Dufour 06:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

You should really consider reading what you're talking about, they do not ...just invite people to post their opinions and don't take responsibility for them. Once again, this is not what the reference is used for, but the FAQ you seem to be bothered by so much says: This page is a collection of resources and opinions others have posted on the web about Barbara Schwarz, as well as information she provided herself either via newspapers, court documents, or Usenet. As such, each item is up to the reader to decide how accurate it is, and draw their own conclusions.

By not reading what they said carefully, you come off as either trying to quote them out of context or looking less than brilliant. Anynobody 08:15, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

This is the page that is cited in the article. Usenet and other Internet postings are not good enough to be WP reliable sources about living persons. Steve Dufour 09:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

So you're saying that because they created a FAQ about Barbara Schwarz on the page which also discusses her reason for being listed with the AHBL they can't be used as a source?

We've been through the "USENET isn't a reliable source..." discussion several times, I'll refreash your memory. WP:RS says:Self-published sources should never be used as sources about living persons other than their author, (the usenet posts in question are by Barbara Schwarz and about her life) and refers us to WP:BLP#Reliable sources which says:Material from self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source for controversial, derogatory, or otherwise impossible-to-verify statements about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article Since the posts are by her, we are not violating that policy. Anynobody 01:56, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Ancestory.com and USsearch?

Recently an editor has added information to an article (Jaclyn Reding) that I'd previously deleted due to the fact that I couldn't find any reliable sources. The information in question being her supposed maiden name. When asking him where he'd gotten the sources and if he could put them in the article he was slightly rude and claimed that he used Ancestry.com to find her parents through a deceased brother and ussearch.com to connect her to her husband. I am wondering what are the reliabilities of these sources? The author is vague on her own website not stating where she was born, what her husband's name is, or if she has any family at all. I hate to get into a conflict with an editor in the first place, but I'm concerned that this borders on original research. I don't want to remove the information without merit because that could escalate this situation into an edit war, which I'd like to avoid so if anybody could shed some light on these two places I'd appreciate it. --ImmortalGoddezz 23:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Ancestory.com is not a reliable source as it is user-generated content. USSearch cannot be used either, as it would violate WP:NOR. If that information is not available in a secondary published source, we should not put it in an article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:02, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

All right that makes sense. Thanks a lot! --ImmortalGoddezz 15:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to come in late on this one, but I would disagree. Some of Ancestry.com is user-generated, a great deal is reproductions of primary sources. For example, my name is David Mayall, I was born in England in 1969. If you look for me at Ancestry.com, you will find me. Not as user generated content, but as a transcription of the index of births (a primary source). It is impossible to say whether content from Ancestry is a reliable source without knowing which database it was extracted from. Mayalld 10:57, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Ebionites archaeological evidence

Can someone please comment on the Archaeology section in the Ebionites article and the source document, Buried Angels, that supports that section. The source document claims to report on archaeological research published in an Italian journal in the chapter on Archaeology. I have concerns that Jacob Rabinowitz is more of an armchair commentator than a biblical scholar, since the "book" is self-published on the Web. I would like to get the broader perspective of editors that have not been working on the article.

1. Is Jacob Rabinowitz for real as a scholar or is he simply recycling the research of scholars?

2. Is the source sufficiently well researched that it supports what is claimed in the article?

3. Even if Rabinowitz is not a real scholar, is the reporting of research that is otherwise only available in Italian a valuable resource for the article?

4. There is no other published archaeological evidence claiming to support the existence of the Ebionites. Is this "fringe research"? Is Rabinowitz making "fringe claims" based on the research of others?

Thanks for looking into this. Ovadyah 20:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Vanity press, not reliable. ←Ben 22:05, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Definitely a vanity press (sells teeshirts more than books)... Possibly reliable if directly attributed to Mr. Rabinowitz... but that depends on whether he is considered an expert on the subject or not. Blueboar 23:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that is one of the questions we need to resolve. Is he an expert or not. Ovadyah 02:45, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Rabinowitz is the owner of Invisible Books online publishing company, so this work is self-published. Ovadyah 19:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I have been able to determine that Rabinowitz has a Ph.D. from Brown University and is listed as an independent scholar. Here is a list of his prior publications: publications

Jacob Rabinowitz (Rabinowitz, Jacob) Catullus's Complete Poetic Works by Jacob Rabinowitz and Gaius Valerius Catullus Softcover, ISBN 0882142208 (0-88214-220-8) The Faces of God: Canaanite Mythology As Hebrew Theology by Jacob Rabinowitz Softcover, Continuum Intl Pub Group, ISBN 0882141171 (0-88214-117-1) Jewish Law: Its Influence on the Development of Legal Institutions by Jacob Rabinowitz Hardcover, Bloch Pub Co, ISBN 0819701734 (0-8197-0173-4) Rotting Goddess: The Origin of the Witch in Classical Antiquity by Jacob Rabinowitz Softcover, A K Pr Distribution, ISBN 157027035X (1-57027-035-X) The Unholy Bible: Hebrew Literature of the Early Kingdom Period by Jacob Rabinowitz Softcover, ISBN 1570270155 (1-57027-015-5)

He is described in several websites as a practicing neo-pagan. One website has examples of his original poetry:

Here are some poems by Jacob Rabinowitz, another Neo-Canaanite. I thought they were so powerful that i asked his permission to have them here.

Jake is the author of several interesting books including: The Faces of God: Canaanite Mythology As Hebrew Theology, The Unholy Bible: Hebrew Literature of the Kingdom Period, and his great book on Hecate, The Rotting Goddess: the Origin of the Witch in Classical Antiquity The last two are published by Autonomedia.

Canaanite Poems by Jacob Rabinowitz

Does anyone have more opinions on his scholarship and the online book Buried Angels? Ovadyah 20:02, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Further responses to the above question would be greatly appreciated. Also, it would be useful if there were any assertion of notability of his works, such as perhaps receiving substantive reviews. I shall look into that, at least in a beginning manner, this evening. John Carter 17:07, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Gush Shalom

The following article is being used to reference an quote in the Battle of Jenin article to present "evidence" of an Israeli war crime, could I get some input on whether this source meets RS: . The[REDACTED] article seems to make me think that it wouldn't due to the WP:REDFLAG that the statement it is presenting causes. Kyaa the Catlord 07:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Of particular note, the Gush Shalom article here notes that it is an activist group with a clear agenda against the Israeli "efforts" in Palestine. Kyaa the Catlord 07:40, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Here is the Daily Telegraph linking to the document, describing it as an "eyewitness account". Here is Human Rights Watch citing the article and noting that a Gush Shalom translation is available, effectively vouching for it. Here is Teddy Katz referring to the article in a UN document. Here is the actual journalist discussing the article on a nationally syndicated American radio show - or perhaps they hired a voice actor? Can't trust those left-wingers!

Really, now, I previously brought to this noticeboard some alleged quotations that only showed up once on Google and was shot down for it. We are currently using one quote on the basis that a single editor says he called the news agency and verified that yes, an article with that title was published on that day (but he doesn't know what it said.) Now you're telling me that this extremely well-corroborated piece isn't good enough? I think the operating principle here is not WP:REDFLAG but WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Eleland 12:45, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Your ability to AGF startles my mind. I'd like to point out that I did not remove PR's inclusion of this material, I just asked for an uninvolved opinion on it. End transmission. Kyaa the Catlord 13:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

You did not remove it, certainly. You asked around if there were grounds for removal. I.e. you were minded to remove it, if there was backing for your intention. Your second post talks about an 'activist group' with a clear agenda. Nearly all established RS sources on Israeli-Palestine issues are 'activist' in the sense that they publish articles for and against Israel's policies on the West Bank and Gaza. Eleland is correct. Uri Avnery has been in Palestine/Israel since 1933, fought in the 48 war, was elected to the Knesset, can be said to be an insider intimately knowledgeable about Israel's politics and policies and his organization has not, to my knowledge, a reputation for falsifying documents. Samuel Katz's opinions are cited as evidence, correctly, for certain establishmentarian views on the Palestinian territories. I edit them, knowing them to be completely erroneous in substance, but do not erase them. Nor should Avnery's Gush Shalom perspectives be hustled off for having an agenda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nishidani (talk • contribs)

Look at the claim. A drunken, destitute former Israeli conscript claims that he drove drunk a piece of heavy machinery he did not know how to operate in an effort to lay waste to as many Palestinians as possible. This is simply linked to by reputable press agencies, not directly quoted, not swarmed by Christianne Ampour or any of the pro-Palestinian media. This exceptional claim does not have the sort of media coverage required by WP:REDLINK to meet the standards. Yes, I'd like to see it gone from the article, but rather than merely removing it myself, I came to the proper place to have sources checked against our RS standards. And I get gruff for it. Kyaa the Catlord 14:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

This would be better addressed by posting a Request for comment, as it is clearly a content dispute. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:08, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

The article is a translation of a piece of reportage published in Yediot Aharonot, Israel's most widely circulated tabloid paper. Yediot Aharonot articles are cited all over Misplaced Pages. No one questions the reliability of it as a source. It fits all Wiki criteria. You take exception to the 'exceptional' claims made by the driver,i.e. you dispute the content. But the claims made don't have to be true, the source that prints them however has to be reliable. The only valid objection you might raise relates to possible errors in Gush Shalom's translation. I very much doubt that in a long article of that kind, you are going to encounter a systematic linguistic distortion of the claims made by the bulldozer driver. The source is Yediot Aharonot, not Gush Shalom.Nishidani 20:32, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

My remarks about CAMERA above are equally applicable here, I think. If Gush Shalom is quoting a reliable source, then its best to go straight to the RS, confim it in context, and cite that. That being said, articles that are based in large part on the quotes selected by advocacy organisations of GS' type are, in my opinion, not the sort of thing we really want. Hornplease 21:23, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

CAMERA is a hate-site, we'll reference the article "A Study in Palestinian Duplicity and Media Indifference" when we reference articles on "Jewish Duplicity". Gush-Shalom is an "activist site", but it's not a hate-site, it doesn't operate as a propaganda organ for anyone, it's unlikely to be funded by people who are protecting moneyed interests, it has no particular reason to cheat, it's been around a long time and there is no indication (that I'm aware of) that it does cheat. The problem with articles in Israeli newspapers it that, more than most, they don't keep their archives available for very long (and have been known to change articles eg when Peres called Jenin 2002 a "massacre"). PR 17:29, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

CAMERA is not a hate-site. In fact it's a reaction to real hate sites by Arab & Islamist propaganda against Israel. One of it's most notable features is the dispelling of the myth that Ariel Sharon claimed "We Jews run America" in 2001. Sadly, there are still people both in the Middle East and the west who believe that garbage. ----DanTD 19:04, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

references used in Religious conversion and terrorism

Religious conversion and terrorism was an article that was deleted after an {{afd}} a few months ago.

I am considering initiating a full deletion review, because I thought the {{afd}} procedures followed did not conform to policy. I'll try to talk about the procedural flaws as little as possible here.

I asked for temporary content review and userification. The major complaint of the wikipedian who nominated the article was that the article was unreferenced. But they made this nomination after deleting all the references, and I thought at least some of those references were perfectly valid. And, after the nomination, they kept removing good-faith attempts to introduce new, valid references.

The first reference the artle referenced was published in the Toronto Star in 2004, entitled: "He embraced Islam, then terrorism". A link to the online version of this article was provided when the article was first written. It seems to have expired, or otherwise gone 404 by March of 2007. Here is my first question. If a reference cites the publication, the date, the page number, the title, and the byline, then does it remains just as valid a reference as when it was available online? Surely the article is just as authoritative when it is taken down from the newspaper's web-site? With the date, page number, title, etc, doesn't it remain verifiable? In this particular case we have the publication, title, date, but we don't have the page number. Is that all that is lacking to continue to use that reference?

There is another site that seems to have a copy of that article. If the site with the mirror has some kind of claim that the original copyright holder has given them permission to republish the material, it remains a valid reference? Correct? If so, which publication should one list as the publisher? New Yokr Times articles often remain freely available to non-subscribers only for about two weeks. But the New York Times bought the International Herald Tribune a few years ago. So, when we reference the copy of a New York Times article republished by the International Herald Tribune, do we list the NYT or the IHT as the publisher?

How much trust should we extended to republishers, that they formally acquired permission to republish material that has expired from the original publisher's web-site? The Toronto Star article I referred to is mirrored, in full, on the following sites:

• "He embraced Islam, then terrorism". Rotten Tomatoes.
• "He embraced Islam, then terrorism". Canadian Coalition for Democracies.

The two sites mirror the first couple of hundred words.

• "He embraced Islam, then terrorism". altermedia.info.
• "He embraced Islam, then terrorism". SITE Institute.

Presumably the last two didn't get permission, and think the first hundred words qualifies as "fair use"? The SITE quote actually contains enough material to substantiate that Dhiren Barot was accused of being a terrorist. But policy proscribes using it as a source, correct?

Thanks! Geo Swan 04:19, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Some pages at the Toronto Star (, ) indicate that if an article is reprinted on the web with permission, a particular little icon will appear, the HTML frame is maintained by the Star, a copyright notice appears, etc. The sites listed above don't include those things, so it would seem they didn't get formal permission. However, lots of other info on the guy and on the concept are out on the Web - , , . Best wishes, Novickas 12:52, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay. Thanks. But, what about the question of whether the original reference to the Toronto Star article remains just as verifiable and authoritative after it is removed from the Toronto Star site? Geo Swan 15:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

The question was addressed in a Misplaced Pages Mediation Cabal case , and the judgement (issued November 2006) was "If the content is copyrighted and does not have permission to use, Misplaced Pages can not use it." Novickas 16:48, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

It is perfectly acceptable to have a reference to a mainstream newspaper (such as the Toronto Star) without it being available online. It is not appropriate to 'link' to copyrighted versions that do not have permission, but with the full reference to the article in question, people can go to the library to verify the article if they wish (either on microfiche or via archives such as ProQuest.) The requirement is that citations be from "reliable, third-party published sources" and while it is helpful for verification purposes that they not are verifiable on-line this is not a requirement at all. Thus, to me the Toronto Star article is perfectly acceptable given that title, date, author, page number etc are cited. --Slp1 19:56, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

In fact based on Factiva archive search the article is from 2006. Here is the full reference from Factiva. "He embraced Islam, then terrorism; Briton, 34, confesses to murder plot-Conversion may have tempted Al Qaeda" by Sandro Contenta, Toronto Star 16 October 2006 The Toronto Star page A01. --Slp1 20:10, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks for all the excellent advice. Geo Swan 00:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Related -- Referencing the NYTimes

If articles remain verifiable and authoritative after they are no longer available online, so long as we can supply the page number, in addition to the title, publication, date and author, then I have decided I am going to do my best to record the page number of the articles I cite, when they are still online.

The New York Times lists the page numbers of the articles in the current day's issue here. http://www.nytimes.com/pages/todayspaper/index.html

I created a page to track NYTimes citations I have used, or might use. http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Geo_Swan/Guantanamo/NYTimes_articles

It's always a good idea to write the most complete citation possible for the day when a link goes dead. FYI, you can usually find dead newspaper links on web.archive.org as well. Dean Wormer 17:00, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

A couple of questions:

1. Saving local copies of articles, on my computer, constitutes fair use?
2. However, if someone questions whether an article that is no longer online supported my summary of what it said, forwarding them my local copy would not constitute fair use. correct?
3. Would there be any value of looking to organize a team of people who tried to maintain a central repository, on the wikipedia, of references, including the page numbers, likely to be commonly used, from publications that expire articles quickly?

Cheers! Geo Swan 00:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I actually don't think that citing the pages numbers is required (though obviously desirable): WP:CITE says "Citations for newspaper articles typically include.... page number(s)." BTW that page also confirms that if an article has actually been printed one can drop the link if it goes dead.
I myself find that citation templates at WP:CITET are very helpful since they encourage the discipline of the adding the citation specifics, so that everything is there in proper form should the link disappear.
On the subject of article reference repositories, do you know about the Resource Exchange Project and the Misplaced Pages:Newspapers and magazines request service? If articles disappear, the folks there should be able to help get the full references and even the articles themselves for people, so a reference bank shouldn't be necessary, I don't think! --Slp1 01:32, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for hte answers. So, when the page says drop the link, it means drop the URL? {{cite web}} and {{cite news}} don't like that though, as I recall...

No, I wasn't familiar with Resource Exchange Project and the Misplaced Pages:Newspapers and magazines request service.

Cheers! Geo Swan 01:56, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Times to End Charges on Web Site

The above link explains that the NYT is about to stop charging for access to their archives, so it will soon be much easier to link to these sources. Just take a deep breath and wait. It won't be long. - Jehochman 14:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, "drop link" means deleting a non-functioning url, and is okay assuming there is enough other info to allow the looking up the article by other means. {{cite web}} won't like it no url, for obvious reasons, but the other ones work fine without one.--Slp1 14:20, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Before "dropping" a link, check with web.archive.org to see if there is an archived version, which there often is with newspaper websites. When the Times switches to free articles, I would guess that a lot of existing URLs will change, so we may have some cleanup to do. Dean Wormer 17:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe the Times is doing redirects from the old TimesSelect archive links to the new free versions of the articles, but I agree that it's probably cleaner if we change our links to better ones. No rush, though, unless we get an indication that they're planning to dump the redirects at some point. JavaTenor 17:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Any indication that other publications will follow? ...and thanks to all for the great info and links in this thread. Flowanda | Talk 18:17, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

washington times

requesting comments regarding source's reliability

here - .

-- Jaakobou 20:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Right now, it seems none of the references to The Washington Times actually link to the cited articles on the newspaper website, so the Times reliability isn't yet the issue. Flowanda | Talk 22:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

the article's publication and text have been validated so the first link is the one you should be looking at if you want to go over the entire article (p.s. from camera's quotes we've validated about 46 out of 50 so there's no reason to believe any of them is false). Jaakobou 22:47, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure it has, and I'm sure you're all sincere and diligent, but that doesn't mean the sources meet WP:RS or that the citations will survive once you're not around to protect them (i.e. if you believe that Misplaced Pages is around for the long haul and that its core policies will prevail). As a casual reader of this article--I'm totally clueless about the subject, btw--I'm not going to dig through all the discussion and the edit histories of the editors involved in this obviously volatile article to figure out who or what is verifiable and believable. Like the majority of readers, I'm going to read the article and if, for some reason, I look or click on the actual links in the citation and end up somewhere else beside the Washington Times, then chances are good the warning bells are going to go off, and I'm going to begin questioning all the facts and everybody's intent.

Do you see what I am getting at? This is not about individual editors or somebody's word, but about doing the hard work now to find rock-solid NPOV facts and sources that keep editors from arguing about this exact same issue 10 years from now, or constant fighting about including equally unverified sources and content. Short term, you may gain exception to use these sources and even list them as Washington Times articles; long term, well, the edits will go away unless they are soundly sourced and can be easily verified and updated as Misplaced Pages and online archiving improve. If you want this article -- and your edits/sources -- to live beyond you, then source the facts and references strictly to WP:RS, not to prevailing, temporary opinion or current tolerance. Flowanda | Talk 00:10, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The article claims to be quoting the Washington Times in one of the instances of footnote 25, but the footnote itself cites someone else's web site. And other instances of that footnote don't mention the paper. If you want to source something to a newspaper, source it by stating the article title, newspaper name, and publication date, not by linking to somebody else's page purportedly quoting the paper. It may be ok to include a note saying that parts of the article are quoted on a web site, after the proper citation, but the proper citation needs to be there. As for material sourced in the same footnote to CAMERA but not sourcable to a major newspaper or similar: the WP article on CAMERA states that it takes a non-neutral pov, so its reliability seems dubious for claims beyond "one side of the dispute takes the position that..." —David Eppstein 00:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The lede is available without paying for it (preview) and this contains the key claim cited here. When numerous (, , ) mirror sites have an apparently identical article - and their ideological biases are all over the place - I think it's safe to treat it as a legitimate source. This being said, Paul Martin ("Sayed Anwar") of the Washington Times was very publically, and very credibly, accused of repeated journalistic fraud on CBC Television, an accusation which has not been retracted or, to my knowledge, credibly disputed. That's the real issue. Eleland 02:57, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Got it...I see the problem you're trying to solve, but the citations seem misleading when they go somewhere else other than the website page that's listed...changing the citations to include the actual source and the reasons they're being used would help clarify their use. I also see other ways editors will probably challenge the sources-the sites you listed may have pulled the exact text from the article itself, but they might have all pulled it from altered sources...and if they're not considered reliable sources, there's still no way for readers to easily verify for themselves. And I noticed one of the sites you listed above listed a fair use for research notice at the bottom...do the sources cited in the article have permission/exception to publish the entire Times article on their sites? Flowanda | Talk 17:17, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The Washington Times article here in WP rings all kinds of alarm bells about this paper - the Rev. Sun Myung Moon founded it in 1982, still owns it, has pumped a $billion and more into it and said he wanted to make it "an instrument to save America and the world."

But there is a second concern so serious that it amounts to a conclusive reason not to use this particular reference (even if we'd accept the Washington Times for this very, very surprising claim). The re-posting of this article (or at least the one used) is on a race-hatred site. It carries a link to an article "Back to the Moslem Terrorist's Page" - immediately above this very story! We'd not tolerate sources picked up on David Irving's IHR web-site, and "papillonsartpalace" is substantially worse. PR 21:15, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

webpages critical of psychoanalysis as sources

Could I just get a second and third opinion on this. This webpage was being used a source in Jacques Lacan - specifically the criticism section. It was added by User:MarkAnthonyBoyle . That webpage is an abstract for a book which hasn't been published - so as far as I can see this aint reliable in WP's terms. This page is also used - I consider this to be a self-published review and therefore not a reliable source. The third source I'm questioning is International Network of Freud Critics whose "intent is to broadcast relevant information about the fabrications, the lies, and the disinformation of the Freudians". That statement alone makes me dubious but I can find no peer-review or editorial systems on the site - it is also obviously partisan (but that seems no longer to be in violation of the WP:RS guideline). In summary I think these links fail WP:RS but I wanted to bring this to a wider forum for discussion. Any views?--Cailil 14:16, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• This does appear to be a self published source. If it is actually an abstract of a published work, then the published work should be cited, with the web page as a convenience link. Is this person a recognized expert with other publications in this area of expertise? Do his opinions reflect a significant viewpoint? That might make it usable, as long as third parties are not defamed. - Dean Wormer 22:19, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Well as far as I can see there is no book. Filip Buekens has one book in dutch (Title translates roughly as "People are intentions") and he has a paper criticizing Lacan's use of metaphor but the content of this abstract is yet to be published as far as I can see.--Cailil 22:38, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

FYI

Astonishing. Yes I suppose I was borderline incivil, it was early in the morning when I woke up to find that Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters had deleted criticism with tag lines such as <start at cleanup of unencyclopedic "yo mama so ugly" type "criticisms">, <clean up rambing and personalistic rants> and <rm rant that is cited only to blogs> Sorry if I took his good natured chiding for something else. In the process of his editing he removed the following: (diff) (hist) . . Jacques Lacan‎; 20:19 . . (-436) . . Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters (Talk | contribs) (start at cleanup of unencyclopedic "yo mama so ugly" type "criticisms" added by anon)

“In psychoanalitic practice charging a full fee for a 5-minute session (varying of the length of the sessions) is considered un-ethical because there are other ways to confront the client with sticking to the same material. In Lacan's biography written by Roudinesco it is told that during sessions Lacan sometimes got his hair cut and received pedicures “(p. 391) .

This reference is a quote from Richard D. Chessick, M.D., Ph.D. (google scholar 212 articles) From a book review A Clinical Introduction to Lacanian Psychoanalysis: Theory and Technique by Bruce Fink professor of psychology at Duquesne University. The review was published online at The American Journal of Psychiatry, which claims “According to ISI’s Journal Citation Report, The American Journal of Psychiatry has an impact factor of 7.16, which ranks it 2nd among 87 journals in psychiatry. The Journal is 1st among psychiatric publications in total citations, with nearly 30,000 citations per year.”

. Jacques Lacan‎; 20:40 . . (-1,325) . . Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters (Talk | contribs) (clean up rambing and personalistic rants) In Fashionable Nonsense (1997), Alan Sokal and Jean Bricmont accuse Lacan of "superficial erudition" and of abusing scientific concepts he does not understand
Lost the following elucidation: “(e.g., confusing irrational numbers and imaginary numbers). Richard Webster is strongly critical of Lacan's ideas, invoking the phrase "the cult of Lacan." ”

Filip Buekens (Aalst, Belgium, °1959) is Associate Professor in the Faculty of Philosophy at Tilburg University. He studied linguistics and philosophy at the universities of Leuven (Belgium) and Cologne (Germany) and obtained his Ph.D. in philosophy in 1991 on the philosophy of language, mind and action of Donald Davidson, on whose work he published two monographs. His current research interests are the interface of semantics and pragmatics, truth-conditional semantics and Gricean reasoning about meaning. He (sometimes) defends a position known as minimalist semantics. He has also published on analytic metaphysics and formal ontologies in medicine, issues in the philosophy of action (attempts, deontic logic) and has written two books on the foundations of analytic philosophy and the nature of reference. He is currently working on a long-term project on the structure, content and value of truth and the metaphysical nature of experiences. Recently he undertook an excursion into psychoanalysis and its role in the history of postmodernist thought. His key publications include: Buekens, F. (1994), 'Externalism, Content, and Causal Histories', in Dialectica 1994 (48), p. 267-286; Buekens, F., W. Ceusters, G. De Moor (1997a), 'TSMI: a CEN/TC51 Standard for Time Specific Problems in Healthcare Informatics and Telematics', in International Journal of Medical Informatics 46 (1997), 87-101; Buekens, F. (1997b), 'A Decision Procedure for Von Wright's OBS-Calculus', in Logique et Analyse 149 (1995), 43-55; Buekens, F. (2001b), 'Essential Indexicality and the Irreducibility of Phenomenal Concepts', in Communication and Cognition 34, 75-97; Buekens, F. (2005b), 'Pourquoi Lacan est-il si obscur?' in M. Borch-Jacobson & J. Van Rillaer (eds.), Livre Noir de la Psychanalyse, Paris: les arenas, 2005, pp. 269-278 (also translated in Italian and Spanish and chinese) Buekens, F. (2005a), 'Compositionality, Abberrant Sentences and Unfamiliar Situations', in Edouard Machery, Markus Werning, and Gerhard Schurz (Eds.), The Compositionality of Meaning and Content. Volume II: Applications to Linguistics, Psychology and Neuroscience. Series: Linguistics & Philosophy, 2, Ontos Verlag, 2005, pp. 83-103

Filip Buekens of Tilburg University has made several studies of Lacan's work and concluded "on the basis of a careful analysis of texts of Lacan, his followers (‘Orthodox Lacanians’) and his interpreters in France and elsewhere (‘Interpreters’), that what they claim and defend is based on fallacious arguments, equivocations, intellectual bluff-poker and a consistent abuse of concepts from other sciences. The result is an intellectual charade."]]"Lacan is a philosophical charlatan, and not just because he tried to turn a pseudo-science (psychoanalysis) into a ‘science of the subject’."].

Professor R.C. Tallis claims that he was a psychopath who, "listened to no truths other than those which confirmed his own hypotheses...he projected not only his own theories on madness in women but also his own fantasies and family obsessions". "His lunatic legacy also lives on in places remote from those in which he damaged his patients, colleagues, mistresses, wives, children, publishers, editors, and opponents—in departments of literature whose inmates are even now trying to, or pretending to, make sense of his utterly unfounded, gnomic teachings and inflicting them on baffled students."]

RC Tallis, MA, MRCP, FRCP, F MedSci, DLitt, was Professor of Geriatric Medicine, University of Manchester, Manchester, United Kingdom. 55 articles on pubmed (PubMed, available via the NCBI Entrez retrieval system, was developed by the National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI) at the National Library of Medicine (NLM), located at the U.S. National Institutes of Health (NIH).) 13 citations on Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine, Guest speaker at The Royal College of Physicians,

Article is about 5400 words, do you think there may be room for some balance in the interests of NPOV? Or perhaps we should start a POV fork?MarkAnthonyBoyle 14:02, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• • MarkAnthonyBoyle, nobody is casting aspersions on the qualifications of any of these scholars. The matter is simple. The sites you link to don't measure up to wikipedia's standard for what is a reliable source. If you can access Buekens article criticizing Lacan's use of metaphor then go ahead and use that - becuase these webpages are all self-published and therefore not reliable sources. I will remind you, now for the second time that wikipedia is not a soapbox - please re-read WP:TALK to see how to correctly use a talkpage. The above post was also added verbatim by MarkAnthonyBoyle to Talk:Jacques Lacan--Cailil 15:45, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Cailil, I suggest you have a quick look at the post I put on User:Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters page. I simply do not understand why you consider criticism of Lacan or Freud from highly respected scholars in those fields to be soapboxing, other than that they hold a different view to yours. I think these short quotes are concise, and provide NPOV balance.MarkAnthonyBoyle 23:09, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Mark I'm glad you and Lulu are working together productively. Again the problems above are not the scholars or the criticism or their views. Comments like "Article is about 5400 words, do you think there may be room for some balance in the interests of NPOV? Or perhaps we should start a POV fork?" are not-constructive and are soapboxing. That said I do see that the issue has moved on and I hope that you and Lulu improve the article. I consider this issue to be resolved now--Cailil 12:39, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Ars Technica news?

Is Ars Technica a usable source for IT and technology related news? http://arstechnica.com/news.ars is the main source. I asked here but got no response, so wanted to be bold and cross-check. Thanks. • Lawrence Cohen 06:10, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that the site is a mix of e-Zine (considered reliable) and a blog (not considered reliable). I looked to see if the site contained any sort of statement that would tell me the degree of editorial oversight that occurs. Unfortunately, I did not find such a statement (that does not mean they don't have oversight... it just means that we don't know if they do or not). Certainly we can not include the "readers comments" that go along with the articles... so the question centers on the articles themselves. Do the contributers have a reputation for accuracy in IT journalism? What is the reputation of the web site? These are all questions that have to be asked, and without knowing the answers I can not say if the site is reliable. It probably also depends on what you are trying to cite it for. Blueboar 12:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I would say that they have a good reputation, as they are often cited. • Lawrence Cohen 17:25, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

As a prolific reader of IT sites and holder of a BSc(Hons) in Computer Science I can say that many of Ars Technica's articles, particularly on CPU technology, have a higher than average quality in their class. By 'their class' I mean commercial non-academic sites, because you cannot, of course, compare an IT site, or a newspaper, or an encyclopedia, with academic sources. If the question is whether Ars Technica can be cited in Misplaced Pages (which is non-academic), my answer is a loud yes. Note that at least one Ars technica editor has had PhD training (albeit, IIRC, not in CS). NerdyNSK 23:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Final question... is someone objecting to using it? (if so, why?) If not, I would say be BOLD and use it. If someone objects later, you can always revisit the issue. Blueboar 23:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Based on a brief perusal of the site, it's my belief that we can use the content from the "news" and "articles" sections as reliable sources (as it appears those sections are all editorially reviewed), but not from the "journals" area (which hosts more informal blog-style posts from the writers). JavaTenor 17:37, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Court order is Neutral source or not

There is a discussion on where one adminJossi is of the opinion that High court order cannot be considered as Neutral source of information and Newspaper article is not a verifiable source of information. Request input from other experienced[REDACTED] user's to give their input as if a High court order is considered Neutral WP:NPOV or not, also can a national newspaper article be used as a verifiable source of information ? Rushmi 16:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Rushmi has grossly misrepresented the issue here. He states that he simply wants to know if a court order and a newspaper article can be used as sources. What he fails to disclose is that the newspaper article in question was ruled defamatory by a trial court, and that the court order has nothing to do with the article topic itself, but is about a jurisdictional/procedural issue about whether or not an individual can sue for defamation if a group they belong to has been defamed (and the higher court held "yes"). --Renee 21:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

My Question is same, we are not to discuss the neutrality of court judgement, is a court judgement a neutral WP:NPOV Reliable WP:RS or not ? Is[REDACTED] considered a place where neutrality of a court order is questioned ? Same goes with National newspaper article. Is an article published in a national newspaper article considered as varifiable and reliable source of information or not. Rushmi 15:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Speaking in the abstract, and not about this particular article... court judgments are considered Reliable Sources for statements of fact about what they say, but not for statements of broader interpretation of what the judgment means. Newspaper articles in general are certainly considered reliable sources, but whether a specific newpaper article is reliable depends on circumstances. As far as NPOV goes... sources don't have to be neutral, but any statements you wish to make in a[REDACTED] article that are based upon the sources them do have to written with NPOV in mind.

Now applying all of this to the article in question ... What seems to be the key here is whether all of this is actually relevant to the article topic. Remember that not every pov or fact needs to be included in a given article (see: WP:NPOV#Undue Weight). It actually sounds as if there is some OR going on... assuming that the court judgement and the newspaper article all relate directly to the topic of the article. Blueboar 16:25, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Daily Mail? (UK)

Well, I'm from the US, so, I'm not terribly familiar with this publication. It's article Daily Mail, describes it as a tabloid, so, I think it's somewhat dubious. As do others. I'd really love to get some opinions, particularly, from other editors, more familiar with this publication, as to if the Daily Mail is a reliable source, that we can use at Man vs. Wild. Presently, it is being used as a reference. SQL 03:19, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Dubious does not equate to unreliable. I would be inclined to double check anything cited to the Daily Mail, and see if I could find a better source... but the paper does fall on the reliable side of the line (just). Blueboar 15:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

The things sourced from the Daily Mail for Man vs. Wild seem acceptable. The same basic story is being reported from several outlets. Someone already pointed this out on the Talk page of the article: The Daily Mail is one of many dozens of papers that have carried the stories. Even the NYT has carried it. This is not as difficult to decide as a report that Person X has used drugs or embezzled money, where we would be looking for ironclad editorial scrutiny, something more likely to be found at NYT than the Daily Mail. EdJohnston 17:41, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

PWInsider.com

There is a minor debate going on within WP:PW about whether or not pwinsider.com, which, from the notice I got when I went to save this page the first time, is blacklisted currently, really is a reliable source or not. We aren't sure if this is a peer reviewed, neutral, and scholarly site or not. Some say that it amounts to a dirtsheet, others say that it is a reputable, secondary or third party source. I figured that it would be a good idea leave this up to the pros at this noticboard. Peace, The Hybrid 05:00, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

If it is blacklisted, I would say it is not considered a reliable source. Do we know why it was blacklisted? Blueboar 15:18, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Blacklisting just means it was being spammed. In this case, I know little about the subject, but two things make me skeptical of its reliability. First, I'm just skeptical of any site that assaults me with that much advertising. Second, the stories of theirs I loaded are all repubs of stories that are posted elsewhere, and so I tend to suspect that we could just go to the original source and cite that instead. Phil Sandifer 16:48, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Um, this site IS the original source for the most part. That's why I believe it's a useful site. Mshake3 03:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

RE: nonsense votes

I hope this isn't considered canvassing, but I would appreciate if some mods would look at and advise/vote per the reasons given by some posters for keeping the world public speaking championships... they seem partisan and nonsensical. cheers.JJJ999 02:01, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

It is canvassing, and this isn't really the proper place to ask about this... it isn't really a question about reliable sources, but about comments on an AfD. Blueboar 02:47, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Henry K. Beecher

Within past edits of the Henry K. Beecher article, there were allegations medical ethics abuses: namely CIA experimentation and continuation of Nazi research. These claims seem to be based upon two sources. There is an ongoing conversation between another editor and I on whether these fit WP:V criteria, and I was hoping if people could comment:

1. A German-language documentary: Koch, Egmont R.: Folterexperten-Die geheimen Methoden des CIA (English: Torture Experts - The Secret Methods of the CIA), TV-Documentary in German Televison SWR about secret CIA-prisons in post-war Germany, 9th July 2007, Showing original CIA-documents which have been released recently.
2. Presumably recently declassified CIA documents: Beecher, Henry K. Top Secret Control, (SD-34990). Harvard Medical School, Boston/Massachusetts for Colonel John R.Wood, Department of the Army, 10/21/1951, National Security Archives.
3. Of note, I could not find these declassified documents on several searches. However, the other editor (Rfortner (talk) has stated that these should be available upon request from the documentary producers, for which he has contact information for. Would this violate WP:NOR?

Djma12 03:06, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

when citing non-English material, it is reasonable to provide an English transcription. It does not have to be a published one, because the veracity can be checked by comparing with the original. But unpublished documents in archives cannot be directly cited--however a reputable TV documentary is considered a RS, and if it refers to the documents, that can be stated. It is of course subject to contradiction or criticism from other sources--the way to go is to look for published comments on that program and insert those references also.DGG (talk) 19:10, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Is Shibli Nomani a reliable source?

More specifically, is Shibli Nomani's Sirat an-Nabi (The Life of the Prophet ) a reliable source for the life of Muhammad?

I believe the answer is yes. Nomani was the professor at Aligarh Muslim University, and considered a reliable source for Islamic history. He has been referred to as the "leading Muslim historians of the day " by Francis Robinson (head of the Department of History, at Royal Holloway, University of London). (Source: The British Empire and Muslim Identity in South Asia, by Francis Robinson. Transactions of the Royal Historical Society, 6th Ser., Vol. 8. (1998), pp. 281.)

Further his works (including Sirat an-Nabi which is in question here) have been regarded reliable. A review published by Annemarie Schimmel (from Harvard University) regards Sirat an-Nabi as an important biographical work. This review also confirms that Nomani was a professor in Aligarh. Finally the review praises the Murad's work. (Source: Review of Intellectual Modernism of Shibli Numani: An Exposition of His Religious and Political Ideas by Mehr Afroz Murad Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 103, No. 4 (Oct. - Dec., 1983), p. 810)

What do you guys think?Bless sins 00:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Nomani's status as a historian does appear to be recognised (cf. "Cambridge History of Islam" vol 2B (1992) p. 646, 699 Cambridge University Press; "Nationalism: Critical Concepts in Political Science" (2000) p. 924 Routledge; and others). feedback from experienced RSN contributors would be welcome. ITAQALLAH 09:37, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Episodes used as sources?

Episodes can be used as reliable sources, right? I mean if I editing an article on a tv show and I need to cite something in the article, I can use an episode from that show as a references, correct? If I need to cite information about the character, or something that happens on the show, an episode would be considered a reliable source? I mean, it's not easily changed as per a website. 22:28, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Reliable sources are "third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Episodes would be primary sources and acceptable only in certain cases. See WP:PSTS - an article relying on primary sources "should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims."--Cailil 22:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

If Cailil's comment is supposed to mean, "no... an episode is a primary source, so you can not use it", then I disagree. If intended as "Perhaps... it is a primary source, so be careful how you use it... don't use it to support your own analysis, synthesis, interpretation, explanation or evaluation of the show - as that would be Original Research" then I agree. I would say an episode of a tv show is a very reliable source for blunt factual statements about the plot of the show. Less reliable for discussion of character development and things like that. Blueboar 23:54, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry if I was unclear. I do mean "perhaps but be careful."--Cailil 00:12, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification... I agree. Blueboar 00:22, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Another thing that needs to be considered is taking statements out of context. Also, if you are watching a video, try to cite the time at which the statement is made. Bless sins 00:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I would say an episode of a tv show is a very reliable source for blunt factual statements about the plot of the show. That's exactly what I mean. I mean to use an episode to support factual statements, like what this character drove, or his alias, his firearm, etc. This discussion was brough about because over at Talk:Miami Vice, Arcayne removed citations to the firearms sections that were cited through the episodes, stating that it was OR. The firearms used were those ones stated in the article and cited by the episode. I don't see why that user finds it synthesis/OR. I mean do the character have to come out and say on the episode: Hey, this is a Bren-Ten or a Beretta? If the object looks like it, is the same size like it, and functions like it's suppose to, isn't it safe to say that the object is what it is suppose to be? It's not like we're saying they're using an M4 when it's a Walther PPK. Is this borderline, wrong, correct? And can this website be used to support the facts through the episodes? And this section of that website talks about Miami Vice and backs it up with sourced information. A little guidance/direction would be helpful. 01:01, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

You need to be extremelycautious in providing commentary about a TV show. Caution applies to avoiding WP:NOR, WP:V and a myriad of other policies. Remember also that this is an encyclopedia and not a collection of indiscriminate information. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:18, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

In many cases, there are reviews that can be cited. For some types of articles, where the material is often challenged, such as popular culture sections, it is in practice useful to find and cite these. In some cases, it may be appropriate to cite specifically to the exact time in the show.But for the straightforward plot, I think needing to use a secondary source could be an absurd requirement. But I know not everyone agrees with me here. so as Jossi says, be very careful.We don't always agree on everything about this, but we certainly do agree on that piece of advice. DGG (talk) 06:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Exetel

A recent editor on the Exetel page has been citing a number of Misplaced Pages policies in an effort to force through some of his edits and remove some of the references on the page. Having looked at the policies it seems that what he says does have some merit.

One of the sources used on the page is Boing Boing, a blog site. WP:SPS (cited by this editor) says that blogs are largely not acceptable as sources but may be in some circumstances. As far as I can see Boing Boing doesn't seem to satisfy the requirements for exemption. The editor in question claims that Boing Boing is acceptable because it "used to be a magazine, contains some of the more influential people in technology, and is labeled on Misplaced Pages as a "publishing entity"". Try as I might I can't find anything to support this claim so my question is, is he right?

Another issue on the page is the use of references that don't directly mention the company. A source used to support a claim that Exetel has implemented a certain policy refers only to "another ISP" but doesn't mention Exetel. The article does link to another article on another website but does that make the first a reliable source for the claim? I know the second is fine (that's the source I'd use) but I'm not sure if the first is OK to use.

Finally, can a forum post be a reliable source? The editor has, for some unexplained reason, got it in his mind that two policies of this ISP are linked and were implemented at the same time and will not take my word for it that one of the policies was implemented in March 2004 and the other was implemented in November 2006. I need to convince him of the facts so the two can be separated on the article's page and the only source I can find is a post from the company CEO on the highly moderated Whirlpool forums. --AussieLegend 12:26, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Forum posts are definitely not RS. Blogs are dubious in all cases - and in this case, there is undue weight being given to it. PR 10:01, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Unsourced statements that "cannot be disproven"

In the article Dave the Barbarian (character), a user named AKR619 has repeatedly added statements about an alleged relationship between two characters. Supposedly, there was a set of Disney Channel commercials featuring several characters (Lizzie McGuire, Kim Possible and Dave the Barbarian) in a romantic relationship that, according to AKR619, got Disney Channel into a problem with the FCC.

However, I can find no evidence of the incident, nor of the commercials. The statements are unsourced, but supposedly commercials can act as a source. However, I do not remember such commercials, nor can I find any information on them. The user refuses to post any discussion about the relationship, nor discussion of the commercials, nor links to the videos.

I tagged the statements as unsourced material, later removing it after my research came up empty. he then reverted my deletion. Later I deleted it again, posting that unsourced statements should be removed or sourced. His reply was that since it was a commercial, that counts as the source, and reverted my deletion again.

I made an RFC which yielded no reply.

The idea that Disney Channel would do such a thing like this as described seems more than unlikely to me, especially being mainly a children's channel. It also seems unlikely that such a commercial would not come up as a result of extensive internet search. I seek only the truth. ~ PHDrillSergeant...§ 04:05, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Basically all they did was take scenes from the shows and edit them together so they 'worked' for the commercials. Ridiculously non-canon; at best trivia. HalfShadow 04:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Its up to the user adding info to WP to source it. Unless user:AKR619 can reference the info they're adding using a verifiable WP:RS then its unsourced and has to be removed. Even if this can be sourced it is just trivia like HalfShadow said--Cailil 22:00, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

• It is not anyone's responsibility to disprove unsourced statements. It is our responsibility to remove them. Verification of information is the responsibility of the editor wishing to include the material. Dean Wormer 05:26, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Related problem

The same user recently changed all of the spellings of the character Faffy to Faafy, a spelling that is (a) not used on Disney Channel, (b) not used on the Disney Channel site, (c) is not used in the Closed-Captioning for the show, and (d) returns 9 hits on google (most copies of this article) compared to several thousand for "Faffy". I do not have the time to undo all of these changes. Can someone help please? ~ PHDrillSergeant...§ 05:22, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Use of World's Oldest People Forum as a Reliable Source

Recently, with the death of Myra Nicholson, the usage of the World's Oldest People Yahoo Group as a reliable source has risen. Nicholson's death was reported by an expert on the forum and the message was used as a citation on both the Recent Deaths page and Nicholson's own page for over two days until a newspaper report came to light. Robert Young, who runs the forum uses the following justification for his use of the source:

Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.

Robert Young is at least an expert enough to have had his page kept (see the deletion debate on the talk page) so his claim basis is that because he is an expert and because he moderates the messages and claims that actually get posted to the forum, the source should be counted under the above criteria. This debate does not just concern the occasional death of someone that is posted there before a news story hits. It is also used:

1. On Ruby Muhammad as the only source to cite the claim that she may have been born in 1907 rather than 1897.
2. On Surviving veterans of WWI (a featured list) as the only source to cite the existence of some of the veterans (Raymond Cambefort, the anonymous French veteran).
3. On many supercentenarian pages to make various claims (but usually not as the sole source).

As a neutral editor, one who could either way with this one. On the pro side, it does provide a lot of useful information that would be difficult, if not impossible to find elsewhere. The site is moderated by an acknowledge expert in the field, who screens every message before it is made available to the public. On the con side, there's concerns about original research (for example, the Ruby Muhammad claim is published nowhere else and is now being used by both Dead or Alive info and Genarians.com to call her age into question). Also, registration is required, which doesn't bar a source from being used, but makes it more difficult for people who don't want to spread their information around on the internet to access what may be the sole source for something.

I have alerted Robert Young about this discussion so that he can come here if he wishes to present his side of the debate. As I said, I don't have a particular opinion on this, but I'm not fond of the edit wars that erupt every time this is used as a source. Let's get an answer once and for all. Cheers, CP 16:06, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

• I think the comment about accessability to the source should be struck - I can't recall[REDACTED] caring about how difficult the source is to locate, only that it is verifiable through that source and that the source is 'reliable' meeting the criteria set out in

WP:BLP#Reliable_sources and so on.

• Also I don't have any problems with using posts from the yahoo group, as long as the posts don't constitute original research. What that means to me is that if no solid evidence can be provided then it should be mentioned as a citable claim, rather than a fact, and only then because he's an acknowledged expert. A pillar of[REDACTED] is verifiabilty, not truth, it doesn't matter if articles are altered at a later date because better facts are available. RichyBoy 19:27, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I'll qualify that by saying that original research from an expert shouldn't mean date of death as that is likely to be verified within days anyway; it's more a case of establishing the validity of a claim of birth - I think it needs to be shown that a birth certificate is incorrect or highlighted that a census was missing a name. Not saying the people quoted didn't have those, but to avoid original research on those matters is must be demonstrated, considering that verification could be a long way off. RichyBoy 19:34, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Reliability of sites that contain adult or pornographic content

I need several admins to clarify something so that there's no confusion over the issue, as there seems to be a few people abusing their admin duties. Where exactly in Misplaced Pages's TOS does it state (with no confusion) that a site which happens to contain pornographic images and/or links to pornographic websites is automatically deemed unreliable as a reference for content? TMZ.com owns the rights to the infamous "Kramer" video, they've watermarked it, and its used as a source on Misplaced Pages. A site that I'd like to use as a reference has legal fight videos, the site owns all rights to the videos and has also watermarked them with additional details. According to Alexa.com the site in question ranks in the top 5,000 most visited websites in the world. So where in Misplaced Pages's rules does it state that this site is unreliable as a reference whereas TMZ.com (a celebrity gossip site) is reliable? Playboy.com contains pornography, why can various wiki articles (including those not related to the magazine) use pages of that site as a reference if pornographic sites are thus "unreliable" in the eyes of Misplaced Pages? It seems that some contributors and admins are creating their own liberal interpretations of Misplaced Pages policy. Can someone just show me a rule? KimboSlice 22:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

This is an editor who had serious COI issues and tried to spam his site full of copyvios... he's been blocked indefinitely because of disruption. east.718 at 01:22, September 25, 2007

This is very generic please be more descriptive about the particular issue at hand. One cannot make and informed decision (well an informed comment really, but it messes with the prose) without information :-) -- UKPhoenix79 08:31, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

antiwar.com

Is antiwar.com a reliable source for the purposes of ascertaining antiwar opinions and criticism of groups/people from an antiwar perspective which could be considered "hawks?" I ask because a dispute exists at Foundation for Defense of Democracies over the use of antiwar.com criticisms of the group in question, even if clearly labeled as from antiwar.com. Ngchen 22:23, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd say no it isn't a reliable source for any article, except its own. To give an example, L. Ron Hubbard once claimed that human bodies stopped gamma rays better than concrete. This is obviously not the case, so using his book as a reference in the gamma ray article would be improper. However using it to discuss claims of false knowledge in the L. Ron Hubbard article would be acceptable. Anynobody 06:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

The statement in the articles: "Antiwar.com has repeatedly accused the organization of being a front for the Israeli-lobby. Also, antiwar.com's Justin Raimondo has accused it of being in favor of "permanent war" and of being hypocritical with regard to supporting democracy with regard to Uzbekistan. " is badly written, but along the right lines. The writings (or at least the name) of Justin Raimondo must be known to millions. Unless he's credibly accused of falsification (or even if he's known for it!), his claims (with anti-war used as a reference) deserve mention. Nobody's going to misled into thinking the FDD is discredited thereby, but the link takes people to a relatively prominent critic of the FDD, and enables readers to get a broader view.

And there's another point - it's important there be some link to critics (either anti-war or other), since some people will see a statement by the FDD and wish to challenge it - one of the important purposes of articles is to enable readers to find criticism and potentially add to them. PR 09:44, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Foreign language sources (again)

I apologize, because I'm sure this has been asked before, but isn't there a policy that says foreign language news stories cannot be considered reliable on the English wiki? I found an article which references a sensational news story, but all the links are in Dutch. Can I delete these references and request a citation? What is considered appropriate in this case? It's probable that that the news story was not covered by the English language press.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 17:37, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

WP:RSUE - official translations are preferred to editors performing their own translations of foreign language sources, but where editors use their own English translation of a non-English source: "there should be clear citation of the foreign-language original, so that readers can check what the original source said and the accuracy of the translation." So no you can't delete and request a citation. A foreign language newspaper is a reliable source if it meets the usual criteria for WP:RS. The article need to be checked for the accuracy of the translation though--Cailil 18:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

But how can the average English-speaking user hope to verify the "accuracy of the translation?" If no translator is available to give his/her thumbs up (and how would this approval not be original research?), do we just let the reference stand? Seems unwise.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 22:58, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

This is a big problem. Policy clearly intends that there be translations available, and it continues with a caution against translations provided by involved parties. But on some topics, we find references (sometimes from hate-sites) inserted by edit-warring editors with no translation whatsoever provided. This situation encourages Bad scholarship to drive out Good.

However, in this case, this is a major European language, in the Latin alphabet, and I can understand it well enough to confirm at least some details. Furthermore, the story may be "surprising" but it's not "surprising" if you know what I mean! Find "Babel-Fish" and get an automatic translation if you're still not sure. PR 09:26, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:AGF? There are many speakers of non-English languages, you can use Babel templates or regional noticeboards and ask for verification that way.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:54, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

The article names two individuals as responsible for the crime. Thus it falls under WP:BLP, which I think demands better sourcing than what we have so far. Since the court inquiries in the Netherlands have only just started, I think a tamer version of this report would be a good choice until reliable sources are obtained that all of us can understand. EdJohnston 19:55, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Can a quote from an editoral-like article in Counselor Magazine be used as a citation like this?

In the Alcoholics Anonymous article as a criticism that AA offers No Model of a recovered Person this article is given as a citation for the following.

Charlotte Kasl, Phd. Addiction Counsellor ,Author and Past Member of AA asserts. ' 'A search of approved addiction literature of A.A. and Al-Anon provided me with no definition of a healthy, mature "recovered" person. One is always an addict, dependent on groups, and always at the brink of relapse if he or she doesn't follow certain directives and trust external authority.' '

This looks like an opinion expressed by the author, not a result of a quantitative study of AA and Al-Anon literature. If it was, she gives no citation or method of the research. While the article is published what seems to be a reputable magazine, there is no evidence of peer-review for this particular article. As such, what appears to be just the authors opinion isn't relevant encyclopedic content. -- Craigtalbert 20:54, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

NB, Periodicals are regularly used as a reliable source, even in featured articles. 82.19.66.37 21:47, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Old Newspaper reports hosted by anti-subject of article site

Old newspaper reports (1985 ) are hosted by an anti subject of article site , these copies of mainly SF Chronicle papers and appear with an extreme of bias to me, these copies on the critical website then lead (by click on link) to to further derogatory comment blog and bulletin board posts all derogatory and personal opinion with no further refs , included is a court report by one plaintiff

here is an example the subject is Adi Da a not well known American spiritual teacher

here is a typical lightmind.com link the ( anti Da ) site ,which hosts the newspaper reports from 1985 click on the bottom links to see where they lead , would appreciate a non partisan opinion ( or 2 ) thanks very much

http://lightmind.com/thevoid/daism/sfchron-04.html --202.63.42.221 08:51, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Unless the articles have been altered they should still be reliable. The SF Chronicle is the ultimate source, not the website hosting the articles. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:36, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

PS: I've checked a newspaper archive (ProQuest) and the version of the article there matches the version psoted at http://lightmind.com/thevoid/daism/sfchron-04.html. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:40, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Avoid anything on a hate-site. We'd not link to David Irving or the Instituted for Historical Review, because his reputation for accuracy is poor, and he's associated himself with groups we suspect of hate. (David Irving has also been jailed for making a nuisance of himself, but few (none?) of his scholarly opponents consider that helpful). PR 09:14, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

The source is the SF Chronicle. We don't need the courtesy link to the "lightmind.com" in order to use the Chronicle source. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:01, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Antiwar.com and Globalsecurity.org

Hi are Antiwar.com and Globalsecurity.org reliable sources? 22:34, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

No. Obviously biased websites reporting second hand information are not "reliable" sources unless the article is about them, and in the last case the can only be cited to provide information about the sites themselves. -- Craigtalbert 04:22, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Craigtalbert I understand what you mean by Antiwar.com, but what's wrong with Globalsecurity.org? Anynobody 06:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Sites like Antiwar.com (should be) more than blogs and their dedication to accuracy may be good. Their opinions should not be used (unlike, say, an editorial in an RS). They should not be used as reference for "facts" (but then such information will be better presented elsewhere anyway). They should not be used for quotes in general but might be used to quote, eg named refugees, interviewed by named observers belonging to recognised bodies. They might be used to pass on the account of a 'real' but 'unknown' person talking about something they've experienced in a war-zone eg impressions of a refugee camp. But only if the report is rich in detail about the time spent there. PR 09:10, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

"Dedicdation to accuracy?" I don't think so. Antiwar.com once tried to fabricate some 9/11 conspiracy theory, where it accused Israel of making some secret deal in Hollywood, California at the corner of two streets which don't intersect with one another. ----DanTD 12:12, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

FrontPage Magazine and WorldNetDaily

There is currently a controversy on Islam in the United States over the inclusion of information that is thought to be irrelevant by some and relevant by others. Setting aside the issue of relevance since it isn't pertinant here, there has also been a concern raised about the reliability of the sources used as references for the disputed information. I will reproduce the disputed paragraph below with its two references so that those commenting here have some context. Note: I'm not asking for help or advice about the relevancy issue since that is a content question and not a source question. Thanks.

• According to Paul Sperry, the Pentagon has also criticized Islam at least on one occasion. He writes that after a detailed project undertaken to study Islam, Quran and Hadiths, the Pentagon has concluded that "Islam is an ideological engine of war (Jihad)." In its briefing paper titled "Motivations of Muslim Suicide Bombers", the Pentagon has concluded that "Suicide in defense of Islam is permitted, and the Islamic suicide bomber is, in the main, a rational actor. The bomber secures salvation and the pleasures of Paradise where 'beautiful mansions' and 'maidens' await him." It also describes 'Zakat' the Muslim charity as "an asymmetrical war-fighting funding mechanism." The paper also says that the actions of Prophet Muhammed could be considered quite radical by today's standards. .

While the main issue on the talk page has been relevance I was hoping to get some help on the secondary issue of reliability, either in this particular case or more broadly for those two media outlets. Are FrontPage Magazine and/or WorldNetDaily reliable sources for news in this context? In general? How are these media outlets classified? What are they comparable to? Other than the fact that some editors identify a bias in these sources and other editors deny any such bias I don't think any of us have a good understanding of the reliability issue. Any help would be great. Thanks.PelleSmith 22:48, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

• WorldNetDaily has a reputation for publishing fringe theories. FrontPage magazine is essentially one big editorial that pushes a conservative political agenda. Neither site has a reputation for accuracy, nor high standards of journalism. In the example above, there is no way these would be reliable sources. Try the Washington Post or Wall Street Journal. If the Pentagon took such a position, it would be reported widely. - Jehochman 23:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
• ditto to what Jehochman noted. WND and FPM demonstrate very little in terms of evidence of reliability. ITAQALLAH 13:53, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
• Agree with Jehochman. If the Pentagon had made that point, it would've been widely reported. → AA — 14:02, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
• Agree with Jehochman. They are both right-leaning rumor mills. Ngchen 14:17, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
• Agree with Jehochman. --Aminz 00:50, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
• Agree. Note that they are good sources for opinion, where that is warranted. Arrow740 03:29, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
• Agree. There was a well-documented case of them verbatim reporting from an Onion article about Harry Potter's satanic ties. --Haemo 03:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
• Agree with Jehochman. --Raphael1 13:15, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
• Agree with Jehochman. PR 09:01, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Question

Does anyone know what standards these magazines have for oversight and fact checking? That is to say what is known about how they operate in terms of how reliable they are? Thanks again.PelleSmith 21:43, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

There appears to be an issue with their standing among "peers" and mostly appear to be op-ed pieces.--Tigeroo 16:45, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

It's interesting to contrast this discussion with the one on Counterpunch above. Beit Or 20:01, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

persecution of pagans

not so much a matter of WP:RS but WP:UNDUE/WP:NOTE . After a long and hairy dispute, Persecution of Heathens is now a disambiguation page. Concerning Religious discrimination against Neopagans, a rather short article in spite of detailed treatment of individual cases along the lines of "In 2007, a teacher at Shawlands Academy in Glasgow was denied time off with pay to attend Druid rites (Pentacle Magazine: I Want Pagan Holidays)". This article has three sub-articles, one at Religious discrimination against Asatru, another at Religious discrimination against Wiccans, and a third at Discrimination against Hellenic neopaganism. In my opinion, this is compeltely unwarranted: these are religious minorities of the order of 0.2% where they are most numerous, and while they do face discrimination, they are not singled out according to their specific denomination. To me, this smells of lobbyist activism, not encyclopedic coverage. In this, I am in deadlock with Liftarn (talk · contribs), who maintains that each pagan denomination and sub-denomination should get its own "discrimination" article. Third party input is welcome at Talk:Religious discrimination against Neopagans. --dab (𒁳) 13:35, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Different religions - different articles. It's as simple as that. // Liftarn

WP:NOTE would demand that each is established as an independent topic. We don't split Racial segregation in the United States into one article per race, do we? --dab (𒁳) 15:18, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

We don't merge antisemitism and islamophobia do we? // Liftarn

exactly. That's why I am posting this here for review per WP:NOTE: Does discrimination of Wiccans vs. Asatruers refer to separate phenomena in the same sense as Anti-Semitism vs. Islamophibia refers to separate phenomena? 3rd opinions are welcome. dab (𒁳) 16:25, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

You can propose merging the articles, or nominate one or more of them for deletion on the grounds that they are redundant. I take no position on the correct outcome because I haven't looked at the situation carefully, but that's the process you could follow. Make sure you have a good faith basis to propose those changes, and follow whatever consensus develops. - Jehochman 16:31, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

the problem is that nobody but Liftarn and me can be bothered to look into it, and our opinions of mergism are pretty much opposite. I don't know where else to shop for attention, so if nobody can be bothered to even look at this, I guess I'll just accept that this is irrelevant and stop worrying about it. I do not nominate them for deletion because I do not think they should be deleted, just merged. --dab (𒁳) 19:15, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

All three articles (Religious discrimination against Asatru, Religious discrimination against Wiccans, and Discrimination against Hellenic neopaganism) are head-lined the same "Religious discrimination against Neopagans" and appear (at a quick glance) to be identical. I'd say they were clearly unloved and ask for an AfD. PR 08:59, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

US army regulations as verifiable sources for how army is supposed to act

Is there any reason why the AR series of goverment publications would be rejected by Misplaced Pages editors as verifiable sources on reasons why the US Army acts or does not act?

The question relates to the naming of units in describing those units to non-military organizations that are not in a unit's chain of command. Upholding the history and traditions of regiments within the US Army force structure is covered by AR 600-82 (other sources appear to derive their rationale on this public domain publication). AR 220-1 describes status reporting of subordinate commands to higher levels, also citing AR 220-5 which provides that within the Army's reporting channels, the word "regiment" is an assumed part of the name of a regiment and is not used in an official designation, but on websites such as www.army.mil available for non-military users (such as Misplaced Pages editors), the usage is generally to name regiments with the word "Regiment" appended. This practice also extends to printed material made available for public consumption by regiments and not intended for use within the Army itself; it appears to be the practice used in our United States Army article as well.

The issue relates to an accepted matter for mediation. I am concerned that because of any connection I may have to the US Army, I may find myself banned by the government from remaining as an editor, should there be a result of Misplaced Pages mediation that disparages the use of active unit's oral traditions in favor of an interpretation of Misplaced Pages's full compliance with policies approved of by Misplaced Pages or the WikiMedia Foundation. It has come to my attention that at least one other popular website is now off-limits for use by persons connected to the US Army. My concerns extend to how the mediation results may be interpreted by Internet users in general in their determination of the Misplaced Pages as a reliable source of usable information. Hotfeba 16:15, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Reliability of maps

Would you call the following two maps reliable: Image:Rzeczpospolita 1920 claims names.png; Image:Border-Lithuania-Poland-1919-1939.svg? The first one cites some, but not all sources. The second one cites no sources, and a possible error has been raised on its discussion page. But both are also broadly correct, and helpful in related articles. Are they reliable or unreliable? Should they stay or be removed?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Need 2nd opinion about reliable sources for definition of the Nobel Prizes

I am at a complete standstill with another editor in the Nobel Prize article regarding reliable sources about whether or not the Prize in Economics is a Nobel Prize. Could someone please help and give feedback to this discussion? While I believe this is a topic that has a lot of misinformation on the web, it would be helpful if someone else could review this case. You may find it helpful to also read the intro to the Nobel Prize in Economics article. Some definitions of a Nobel Prize are included in the discussion, copied from the Nobel Foundation, another from M-W (listed in a different debate that includes the same editor), etc. There are also references to derived definitions listed in the discussion as well as definitions made up by individual editors. Clearly not all definitions can be correct as they contradict each other. –panda 18:59, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

How do you prove something is a reliable source?

WP:RS states a reliable source has a "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", but how do you prove this? Obviously the major news sources, like NPR, BBC, NYTimes and others are reliable, but would Canadian Content and Policy Review be considered reliable sources? Also, WikiNews is not considered to be a reliable source, is it? Thanks —Christopher Mann McKay 19:31, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Canadian Content's "About" page says "An overview of CCIM - Canadian Content is a unique company bringing forth news, entertainment, and knowledge right to your home computer or anywhere in the world you might be. Canadian Content's staff is a highly qualified group of individuals with more than 25 years combined experience in website design and editorial research. We pride ourselves on being Canada's first and foremost website to bring forth controversial topics as well as everything that matters most to Canadians." Avoid using it for anything "surprising", except in cases where it is quoting non-partisan individuals of some standing in society. PR 08:48, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Opinion columns?

The New York Times is a reliable source, but what about Times opinion column in a BLP (rather a BLC: biography of a living corporation)? I don't think fact checking or editorial oversight apply in those cases and thus I feel uneasy about relying on them as sources. If what they say is accurate, I think it should be easy to find something other than a columnist saying it, in my opinion. My concern is based on what I see at Overstock.com if someone would please take a look and weigh in.--Wally Ball 02:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that a factual claim made in an opinion column in the New York Times should be usable as a reference. It seems that bsalert.com was removed as a source, which is highly justifiable. But note that there seem to be many other sources with basically the same informatioin. The 'Sith Lord' remark now comes from several places, including the Wall Street Journal (found by googling for overstock.com and 'sith lord'). Apparently Patrick Byrne talked about the Sith Lord during a conference call with financial analysts that was being *recorded*! Truth is stranger than fiction. EdJohnston 03:46, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Reporting a birthday with conflicting sources

What is Misplaced Pages's policy regarding reporting someone's birthday when there is conflicting information about it. I'm thinking specifically of an actor where there has been at least 2 or 3 different birth dates and/or birth years reported in IMDB, on fan sites, and elsewhere. Should the birthday not be reported or should the one that the majority of sites list be used? It's verifiable, even if it may conflict with info from other sites, and it doesn't seen any particular source is more reliable than another in this case. (IMDB has changed this actor's birth date a few times.) This actor hasn't been in an interview that I know of where they've revealed their birth date and they have no official website. –panda 18:10, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, neither fan sites or IMDB are generally considered reliable sources. You should go with the most "official" or reliable date reported. --Haemo 18:55, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

So if all of the sources are IMDB, fan sites, or gossip magazines, would it be best to just not include the birth day/year until a reliable source comes along? I'm not sure what would be considered a reliable source in this case. Would the actor's best friend's website be a reliable source? You would expect that their best friend would have the correct information. –panda 19:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Teach the controversy: describe in the text of the article the conflicting date information from all sufficiently reliable sources. —David Eppstein 21:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, thanks! –panda 23:55, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Think Tanks as A Source

Is there a general policy as to whether or not think tanks should be referenced as sources? I ask because of the following being sourced on the LYNX Rapid Transit Services article. In my opinion it should not be used as it is from a conservative think tank, and I feel the same standard should apply to liberal think tanks. Thoughts? Patriarca12 14:17, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

IMO, think tanks can be a valid source. But you are correct in that they can easily exhibit bias. As such, I think the best way to deal with it would be to write "The Liberl/conservative think tank X has claimed Y." This way, the information is put out, while the reader is aware of any possible bias. IMO, the same guideline can be used for reputable, yet biased sources such as political magazines and such (e.g. Salon.com, The American Conservative, National Review, etc.) Ngchen 16:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Generally, think tanks are acceptable as POV commentary sources, as in, "According to the X Foundation, this argument is specious because blah blah". There is a definite variance in quality of "think tanks", though; the RAND Corporation is an eminently reliable source on many questions, while this "John Locke Foundation" appears to be little more than a pen name / 501c3 cover for a few conservertarian ax-grinders. Barring some evidence to the contrary, I wouldn't think that their POV is worthy of inclusion at all. If, let's say, a couple of newspaper editorials, or an opposition politician, have made similar statements than cite them, not this little website. <eleland/talkedits> 16:49, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that finding reliable sources that comment on a think tank's importance is the best way to determine its quotability in Misplaced Pages. One way to get an index of which ones are significant would be to find a survey (like the one at ) to see which ones are the most quoted in the press. This particular list only went down to #25, and the John Locke Foundation was not in the top 25. I also noticed that many of the top 25 have their own WP articles, but often with no reliable sources commenting on them at all! Clearly there is room to improve. As for the John Locke Foundation, my studies didn't confirm one way or another whether it's a significant organization. If you had access to Nexis, you could look up how often it is quoted in the press. EdJohnston 02:38, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Asma Barlas

There is a dispute re the reliability of Asma Barlas's book titled "Believing Women" in Islam: Unreading Patriarchal Interpretations of the Qur'an (University of Texas Press, 2002). User:Arrow740 argues that "Barlas has no qualifications as a historian." . This issue was discussed in details without reaching any consensus. Below, I provide the arguments made for reliability of this work:

This book was published by University of Texas press and has received the following reviews:

1.David Robinson in Muslim Societies in African History (Cambridge University Press) says: "For the role of women, start with Asma Barlas' Believing Women in Islam:..."

2.John Esposito reviewed the book saying: "This is an original and, at times, groundbreaking piece of scholarship."

3.Kirsten V. Walles, Department of History, University of Texas at Austin reviewed the book saying: "The book Believing is a fascinating analysis of the woman’s position in Muslim society. However the basic premise of Asma Barlas’s theories could be applied and used by scholars of many disciplines including religion, gender, and history..."

4. Paul Allen Williams, a professor of Philosophy and Religion in his review of this book says: "Barlas brings a mastery of both Muslim and Western scholarship to her subject, and the clarity and incisiveness of her arguments are a wonderful lesson in creative and principled debate about fundamental issues in Islam." _{Added from my comment at 09:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)}

Asma Barlas has contributed to several scholarly works like Cambridge Companion to the Qur’an (Cambridge University Press, 2006). She was named to the prestigious Spinoza Chair at the University of Amsterdam in the Netherlands for "her prominent contributions to discussions about women and Islam".

Here is the relevant page from her book . --Aminz 08:48, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I cannot see any dispute, there's been no discussion whatever in Talk at this article. The last edit was 6th July! PR 08:51, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

The discussion is on Aisha talk page. Also here --Aminz 08:53, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

This is brazen forum-shopping. Read the discussion at Talk:Aisha's age at marriage. The key issue is that Aminz wants to use statements made by Barlas to cast doubt on statements by scholars of Islamic history about Islamic history, when Barlas has no qualifications as a historian of Islam. She is qualified in her field, but that field is not the field in question. Arrow740 08:54, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

She is a of course a scholar of Islam. In any case, you seem to claim that Barlas is lying when she says:"on the other hand, however, Muslims who calculate Ayesha's age based on details of ...".

This is not the case because the reviewers of such publishing presses usually catch factual mistakes. Different authors may have different opinions in their interpretation of facts but not in reporting them. --Aminz 09:03, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

If any one takes an interest in this, I highly encourage them to read the thorough discussion of Barlas' lack of qualifications at the old talk page. The vague "Muslims who calculate" is also explicated. These "calculations" are meant to contradict Western scholars, mainsteam Muslim opinion, and explicit statements of history in Islamic holy texts. Arrow740 09:06, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

To say that Barlas "has no qualifications as a historian" does not make any sense. Aside from what I said, Paul Allen Williams, a professor of Philosophy and Religion in his review of this book says: Barlas brings a mastery of both Muslim and Western scholarship to her subject, and the clarity and incisiveness of her arguments are a wonderful lesson in creative and principled debate about fundamental issues in Islam.--Aminz 09:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Verifiability:

"Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Sources should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require exceptional sources. All articles must adhere to Misplaced Pages's neutrality policy, fairly representing all majority and significant-minority viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in rough proportion to the prominence of each view."

"In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. As a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the evidence and arguments of a particular work, the more reliable it is."

"Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science. Material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used in these areas, particularly if they are respected mainstream publications. The appropriateness of any source always depends on the context. Where there is disagreement between sources, their views should be clearly attributed in the text."

The fact that Barlas has written books on Islamic history published by reputable university presses like the Cambridge University Press and University of Texas Press, and that her work has received mainly positive reviews from historians of Islam, obviously means that her book is a reliable source on Islamic history. Despite all of this evidence, several users (including User:Arrow740 as mentioned above) at Talk:Aisha and Talk:Aisha's age at marriage removed Barlas' book from those articles based on personal opinions (like the example above) despite the fact that they themselves failed to cite any evidence to support their arguments at all. - Jagged 85 10:10, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Do we have a wikipolicy based objection here? Her work appears to meet the threshold for verifiability and reliability. I've looked at the talk page referred and the objections there focus on her academic degrees. Professionally she appears involved with as well writes regularly for peer-reviewed publications and teaching Islam. Do we have any evaluations of her from her peers that raise issue? --Tigeroo 16:38, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

That's the thing I have issue with here... there are no Wiki-policy based objections against her, nor are there any negative reviews against her from other scholars. The only reason it was removed is because several editors either ignored or disagreed with the scholarly reviews cited above, and they instead preferred to make up their own personal objections against her, mainly based on her being a feminist or lacking a degree in history, which is pretty irrelevant when real historians of Islam have already given her book strong positive reviews. They decided to remove any reference to her work from the article simply because they felt she is unqualified without ever citing any scholarly reviews to support their point of view, which I would consider to be both original research and a suppression of information. I'm not sure whether these users are acting in good faith or pushing for an agenda, but either way, the reasons they've given for removing any reference to her work from the Aisha (and previously Aisha's age at marriage) article are simply unacceptable. - Jagged 85 18:40, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Which "real historians of Islam" would those be? Her lack of qualifications is a simple fact, and it shows in her writing. Her feminist political theories might be "groundbreaking" but her mention of "some Muslim calculations" cannot be taken seriously, for all the reasons presented during the extensive discussion we had about this months ago. Arrow740 22:00, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

John Esposito is the editor of The Oxford History of Islam. David Robinson has written books on the history of Muslim societies published by the Cambridge University Press. Kirsten V. Walles works at the Department of History at the University of Texas. Paul Allen Williams has a PhD in the History of Religions. These reviewers are all historians, and some of them are specifically historians of Islam. Why haven't any of these historians picked up on these so-called errors that you claim "cannot be taken seriously"? We have plenty of authority from a variety of scholars to conclude that Asma Barlas is a reliable source for Islamic history. We already know about your original resarch on her, but on who's authority do you make the claim that she is not a reliable source for Islamic history? All the reasons presented by you and others against Barlas at both Talk:Aisha and Talk:Aisha's age at marriage are extremely faulty, because of the simple fact that you would rather rely on your own original research instead of published verifiable scholarly authorities. Such an approach is simply unencyclopedic and a breach of Misplaced Pages's policies. - Jagged 85 02:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It seems you are unfamiliar with arguing for the reliability of sources. The guidelines you are bolding refer to material presented in an article, not an argument about reliability. Hopefully that clears it up for you. About Barlas' book, it is not a book about history, but about a feminist re-interpretation of the Qur'an. The statements you have assembled cannot be construed as a blanket endorsement of all sentences in the book. Arrow740 03:43, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Who said that the book is not reliable for Islamic history? Again, that's you saying it. No one has yet presented a single historian or Islamic scholar who endorses this view. Just because a book does not primarily deal with history, that does not equate to historical statements in the book being false. Furthermore, Barlas is an Islamic scholar, and knowledge of early Islamic historical sources is a requirement for every Islamic scholar. If there was anything historically inaccurate, then the university press publishers (who have a reputation for fact-checking) and the peer-reviewers (whose job it is to scrutinize published material) would have picked up on it, and yet not even one of them said there are any historical inaccuracies in the book. Your arguments are based on personal reasoning and original interpretations rather than any scholarly authority, that's the problem. Jagged 85 04:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

By your reasoning, you must find a (justifiably) reliable source explicitly stating that she is a reliable source for early Islamic history. Arrow740 05:53, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Haven't we already been through this several months ago? Beit Or 19:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Using edit warring to force something to an article can not settle an issue. --Aminz 20:53, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I am not familiar with this dispute, nor with one that happened "several months ago". But the fact that a source is published by University of Texas Press makes it reliable. WP:RS states (emphasis added)

In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers.

Since, "University of Texas Press" is a "university press", the book is a reliable source.Bless sins 20:06, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

It is saying the opposite. It says that usually if something is an RS it is published by respectable publishers. It does not say that if it is published by a respectable publisher then it is automatically an RS. Arrow740 22:00, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

So, which verified RS is arguing that she is not a reliable source? It can't just be editors here since that would be original research. → AA — 05:02, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

You have shown a fundamental misunderstanding of[REDACTED] editing guidelines. Arrow740 05:53, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

The criteria for RS is peer-reviewed publications. She appears to be definitely printed in them on the said topic. There appears to be no policy based or non-OR evaluation of her work upon which to disinclude her works. Plenty appear to have been provided making a case for inclusion but none against beyond some editors opinion or characterization of her work.--Tigeroo 20:59, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Re: Arrow740:

The historian Kirsten V. Walles, from the Department of History at the University of Texas, praised Asma Barlas' ability as a historian of Islam in her peer-review of Barlas' book:

"The book "Believing Women" in Islam: Unreading Patriarchal Interpretations of the Qur'an is a fascinating analysis of the woman’s position in Muslim society. However the basic premise of Asma Barlas’s theories could be applied and used by scholars of many disciplines including religion, gender, and history..."

"As an historian, I read this book with the intention of being able to assign this to students who have a cursory or minimal knowledge of Islam and the role of women in Muslim society..."

"Part 1 of the book analyzes the primary texts (Qur'an, Tafsir, Ahadith) and main secondary sources (the Sunnah, Shari'ah, and the state) utilized by Muslims. Barlas delves into the historical foundations of these sources and analyzes the methodologies, which led to the transformation of these texts such that they conformed to the cultures of the time..."

"...The only question that is left to answer is, if we are to reread to obtain knowledge and to truly understand history, then who determines what is truth?"

Paul Allen Williams, who has a PhD in the History of Religions, also praised Barlas' ability as a historian of Islam in his peer-review of her work:

"In fact, she is able to bring the riches of literary criticism, feminist thought, scriptural studies, Islamic history, and the Qur’an itself into a coherent, if densely argued, text."

Unless you can find any peer-reviews that explictly criticize Barlas' ability as an Islamic historian, then there is no doubt in my mind that all of this evidence from scholarly peer-reviews clearly point to Asma Barlas indeed being a reliable source for the early history of Islam.

Jagged 85 07:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

About Barlas' book, it is not a book about history, but about a feminist re-interpretation of the Qur'an. The statements you have assembled cannot be construed as a blanket endorsement of all sentences in the book. The book is about "argument" and "methods" of interpretation, not history. Books written by the actual, mainstream, prominent historians of Islam are what we have included. Attempts by apologists unqualified in this specific area to muddy the waters should not be included; that is irresponsible. Arrow740 23:13, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

You appear to be saying she is not a RS for the topic at hand. Can you cite a source that backs up what you are saying? She appears to be accepted by her peers with a distinguished career in the field, and that really is the treshold of her competence/ reliability.--Tigeroo 20:59, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

The book is about the history of women in Islam, and that is what she has been praised for, therefore she is qualified in that specific area of Islamic history. On the contrary, it is irresponsible to rely on one's own interpretions instead of the interpretations of historians. Jagged 85 23:27, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

This is a reliable source, published by a legitimate scholar in a respected university press, and praised by some of the biggest names in the field. Much of the book is explicitly historical; you can't write about the history of Islamic exegesis without dealing with historical source-criticism. It's ludicrous to claim that the book does not meet Misplaced Pages's standards for reliability. Llajwa 00:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Smells like a sock of banned User:His excellency. Arrow740 18:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Arrow740, what is your problem? Why are you so angry? Of course I'm not a sock puppet. You can see from my contributions that I have started editing pages recently but have added constructively to a lot different ones, based on my interests (which I doubt are the same of that banned user), or else reverting minor vandalism. This is my first comment on any debate about Islam, although I'm interested in it. Please assume good faith. Llajwa 00:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

It looks like this is dying down, but I'll put in my two cents since I was asked to. I don't object to using Barlas as a source. However, there is an obvious dearth of historians who believe what she believes about Aisha. I think it's just not a prominent enough minority view to be included, even if Barlas herself is reliable in her field. The majority opinion isn't just the product of Western historians, secularists, or anti-Muslims, it's found in Bukhari and al-Tabari.--Cúchullain /c 16:21, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Barlas isn't really taking sides, but is giving an overview of the debate. Since she is the only reliable source giving an overview of the debate and has clearly presented the minority view as a significant-minority view among Islamic scholars, it would be original research for us to assume otherwise. As a significant-minority view, it should be included in the article, as long as it is clearly described as a minority view and given less attention than the majority view. Jagged 85 00:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Cuchullain, thanks for your input. You are advancing a theory. Can you please let us know the "falsification test" of your theory. Maybe this discussion helps us to even improve the relevant policy page. Thanks --Aminz 01:39, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, if Barlas is not taking a side herself, but only reporting on the debate, why not use whoever it is she is referring to as the source? Unless, of course, they are not reliable. It seems to me that if there were a real prominent historian who believed Aisha was older than 9, it ought to be reported. If they're reliable, they shouldn't be hard to find. But the fact that we're arguing so fiercely over this disputed source, indicates that there probably aren't any. If we were to report on people who believe Aisha was older, it should not be given undue weight in the section with the real historians who go by Tabari and Bukhari, etc. It should be covered in a section on the controversy, which would obviously also include material on those who use Aisha's age to criticize Muhammad.--Cúchullain /c 22:30, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

There were a number of religious scholars in the article who support the idea of Aisha being older than nine, but these sources were previously removed on the grounds of being "religious partisian" sources, which I strongly disagree with especially when it comes to religious figures. I really don't see why a secular historian should be considered anymore reliable than a religious scholar when it comes to interpreting religous sources from their own religion. The Tabari and Bukhari themselves do contain a few contradictions regarding Aisha, hence why there is a debate over this issue among Islamic scholars in the first place, and some relgious scholars also refer to the Sira to support their point of view. In other words, there is at least some evidence for Aisha being older than nine, so it's not like their claims are completely baseless. However, it seems this debate could go on for a long time, so I've thought of a different suggestion that may hopefully resolve the issue at least for the mean time: to leave the Aisha article as it is but to simply have the section regarding her age pointing to the Criticism of Muhammad article for further details. Any comments? Jagged 85 01:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Muhammad Ali was a religious figure, not a trained historian, and certainly not a reliable source for Aisha being older than 9 (why listen to him, and not, say, Jerry Vines or Jerry Falwell). I recall that the rest of the sources weren't much better. If any Muslim scholars, who are considered reliable, make the claim that Aisha was older than 9, then they should be included. But I haven't seen that presented here yet. As for your solution, it would be better to discuss it on the articles' pages.--Cúchullain /c 02:41, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Cuchullain, I checked with the reference section of Barlas book but she has not mentioned the sources she has used. So, it remains unclear who she have had in mind.

Cuchullain, the earliest biographies of Aisha were written around one and a half century after her. Furthermore, she was the daughter of Abu bakr, the first Caliph (the start of Shia-Sunni split). The marriage of Aisha with Abu Bakr was supposed to strengthen the political ties between Muhammad and Abu bakr. She was an important figure in Shia/Sunni polemics. The early biographers never claimed of passing the true account, just passing on the what they've received orally. And as those Muslims point out there are inconsistencies among the records those biographers themselves have passed to us. If one agrees with one of them, he/she has to reject another one (or justify it with much difficulty). One has to reject one of those accounts passed by Tabari anyways. Which one is only a matter of choice.

I remain unconvinced that I have to prove that Barlas is correct to make her usable. I don't think this is the common practice in wikipedia. Having said that I agree with you that "If they're reliable, they shouldn't be hard to find". Please let me know why "Islamic sciences and Culture Academy" is an unreliable source ? And why Understanding-islam.com a website belonging to Al-Mawrid Institute of Islamic research is unreliable? --Aminz 06:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Since we seem to have strayed onto the content issue, I assume RS has been established? For a discussion of Mohammad Ali I suggest we open a new thread if it is an issue. Just a reminder, the treshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is not truth, but verifiability of a claim by a RS. Notability goes hand in hand with undue weight, Misplaced Pages presumes all scholars carry their own set of biases and that truth can be subjective, especially when dealing with topics such as history. Ideally I suggest the characterization of content debate be taken back to the talk page and debate here be restricted to questions of the principle of the Author being an RS.--Tigeroo 06:12, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Good call, we should stick to the RS matter. But obviously various editors still object to using Barlas on this, for the reasons given. I don't, necessarily, my problem has always been with using it to promote this minority claim. This is, however, a content issue, not a reliability issue. Barlas' book is used elsewhere in the Aisha article, with no object from me. Others have named their objections here and elsewhere, I assume they still stand.--Cúchullain /c 09:19, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I opened this because of Arrow's view "Barlas has no qualifications as a historian". There is also an active discussion re Cuchullain's concern above. --Aminz 10:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd say you'd really only have to prove it if someone disputes it, which several editors here have. Additionally, this subject is very touchy, and needs the best possible sources.--Cúchullain /c 10:47, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay. I'll try to prove it. Would you please take a look at my comment at 06:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC). Thanks in advance. --Aminz 10:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Re: Cuchullain: Islamic scholars (including Muhammad Ali) are trained in early Islamic history and traditional Islamic sources like the Quran, Hadith, Sira, etc. Muhammad Ali was also the editor of an Islamic journal, so I don't see why he should be considered unreliable on the grounds of being a "religious partisan" source. The other Islamic scholars that were previously removed are also qualified in interpreting early Islamic history but were removed simply because several editors interpreted them as religious partisan sources. Jagged 85 12:14, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Ferishta , Shahnama , Chachnama , Ibnbatuta , Al beruni

Each of these books has been used extensively on[REDACTED] articles relating to the South Asian Subcontinent. There must be one standard on[REDACTED] weather these are acceptable as secondary and tertiary sources or not acceptable at all. The ensuing rule must be applicable on all articles in[REDACTED] thereafter . How is this going to be achieved? or is there already a[REDACTED] ruling on this .
Cheers
Intothefire 19:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

The relevant policy is part of WP:NOR. Since the listed are primary sources either as ancient historians or historical works they are covered by WP:PSTS. Generally for interpreting, evaluating history secondary, tertiary sources should be the ones used because they are based on the consideration of multiple primary sources in concert.--Tigeroo 19:55, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I suggest then that in order to reduce conflict on articles relating to the history of the subcontinent a page is created listing books and sources categorized into Primary , Secondary and tertiary sources . We can draw in more contributors and build a larger consensus .This could then be developed into the guiding principle for citations on articles ? Tigeroo whats your take on that since you are a great one for citing rules ??

Cheers
Intothefire 02:36, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

The sheer number of books would make that a massive project and one that could never be comprehensive. Secondly why duplicate the work that has already been done, how would this be different from the existing policy pages?--Tigeroo 13:12, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

RationalWiki on Conservapedia

Specifically 1 (also see Talk:Conservapedia). Some users on the Talk page propose that RationalWiki be considered a reliable source on this subject, others disagree. Since this is (apparently) a contentious and politicised issue, I thought I'd see what a wider sampling of editors thought.

Please note that we want to know if RationalWiki is a reliable source for this subject, not whether they're right to criticise Conservapedia or not. I shouldn't have to point this out, but some people get very excited about certain topics. ;-) I'm also not seeking opinion about the general utility of RationalWiki as a reliable source, although feel free to comment on that subject if you want. --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 07:39, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Personal note: I think that RationalWiki having an entire namespace dedicated to Conservapedia, and the above page for "rolling reports of the strange, contradictory or humorous activity at Conservapedia" sounds like the sort of thing we don't want to use in our encyclopaedia. Kinda reminds me of Dirk Van de Moortel's "Immortal Fumbles" page, only with the added bonus of political tension. Far too polemical for my liking. --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 07:39, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

What's contentious about this? currently we have 1 editor who wants to add it, and 9 others who say "nope - policy says it is not a reliable source". Where's the disagreement? --Fredrick day 08:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

By "contentious issue", I was referring to the article as a whole (it seems to attract a lot of political vandalism). I think I might've misread some of the comments on the talk as being in support of the addition, a more careful reading supports your count. Still, can't hurt if someone else wants to weigh in! --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 11:54, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikis, by their nature, are not considered reliable sources (you have no idea of the expertise of the authors, there is no peer review or editorial oversight, an article can change dramatically from what it was when cited, etc.) So, no... RationalWiki is not a reliable source for anything except an article on RationalWiki itself. The same is true for Conservapedia ... and even Misplaced Pages. No Wiki should ever be used as a source except in an article about that wiki. Blueboar 17:16, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Review needed, Joe Szwaja

Hi, an IP editor has been very aggressively questioning two sentences on Joe Szwaja, a low-traffic article that I want to get 3rd party review on. They are:

• "Szwaja has been called progressive in regards to certain issues, including gentrification, police accountability, sustainability, and the Alaskan Way Viaduct problem."

He asserts that unless language indicating facts about the source is included, it is not valid.

And:

• Szwaja has assisted a host of community groups including the Seattle International Human Rights Coalition, as their founder; Common Ground Seattle, Initiative 937 to promote renewable energy in Washington state, Jobs With Justice, Community Alliance for Global Justice, and the Seattle Rainforest Action Network.

He insists that each single community group here must be sourced, and that this questionnaire for the candidate is not a valid source. As it's a primary source for simple facts that aren't negative, I think it is fine. Could you please weigh in on these? The discussions are pretty circular to non-existent. • Lawrence Cohen 20:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I think "has been called" is vague and should be replaced by the name of the person doing the calling and then cited to a primary source. If a reliable news source has made this statement, you can replace "has been called" with "is". You can cite any official statement made by the subject, as long as you make clear that this is what he is saying about himself, and that the statement isn't coming from an independent source. - Jehochman 21:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you; I've adjusted the latter statement about his participation to reflect he stated about half of them. About the other, Progressive bit, the IP editor changed the sentence to read,

"In a recent editorial, the anti-authoritarian alternative publication Eat the State called Joe progressive in regards to certain issues, including gentrification, police accountability, sustainability, and the Alaskan Way Viaduct problem."

Which reads as unduly harsh and negative in tone to my eyes, and excessive qualification. Would it be best to simply say, "Alternative publication Eat The State," rather than pre-qualify what sort of publication they are? • Lawrence Cohen 21:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

If they are editorializing, I would delete the whole thing. You can use a source like that to get a direct quote from the subject, but their editorial is meaningless. I wouldn't use an editorial as a source, even from a much higher profile or mainstream publication. We don't really care what each and every publication thinks. We're here to report the facts. - Jehochman 21:37, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I've removed the passage sourced to the editorial. • Lawrence Cohen 21:41, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

For the other statement, "Szwaja says that" might be helpful to indicate that it's a primary source. - Jehochman 22:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Good idea, I've adjusted it for that. Thanks! • Lawrence Cohen 22:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Lawrence, for taking this to a third party. I wasn't trying to be unfair to Mr. Szwaja, but like I explained before it's my understanding that editorials (which the "Eat the State" piece was) are not relevant for backing up statements like the one that was in dispute. Thanks for removing the contested parts of the page. Much appreciated. And thanks to Jehochman for helping to clarify. 75.92.166.214 03:39, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Schechtman as a source on Palestinian-Israeli topics

Hello,

There's quite a discussion raging on Talk:Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus regarding the use of different sources on the main topic, namely the Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus. I don't want to get too involved in the broader discussion, since it is getting quite ridiculous and my question here pertains to one single author, Joseph Schechtman, who is also at the source of an edit war on said article.

Here's the problem: Schechtman is considered by many to be a historian (he is quoted excessively in the anti-Palestinian crowd), and therefore, according to his proponents on Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus, merits inclusion. Schechtman, however, has been outed as a fraud by the Author Erskine Childers (UN), much in the same way Joan Peters (who, interestingly enough, quotes Schechtman excessively) was unmasked by Norman Finkelstein. This was later acknowledged by the historian Stephen Glazer and not refuted since.

So the question is, can a historian be considered a reliable source even after he/she has been outed as a fraud?

Cheers and thanks, Pedro Gonnet 13:14, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

'can a historian be considered a reliable source even after he/she has been outed as a fraud?'

No. But the case of Schechtman is ambiguous. He cannot be cited as a source to consolidate POVs which have been effectively disproven (Childers 1961), but his book can be used for other documents, as indeed Benny Morris uses it, sparsely in The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited (2004) p.43 and n.11 p.61, to document Schechtman's analogy, within Zionist circles, justifying population transfer along the lines of the Muslim-Hindu transfer in 1947-8. Nishidani 16:03, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Involved editor - I became deeply suspicious of Schechtman as soon as I saw a statement from his book The Arab Refugee Problem in which he (apparently) says: "Until the Arab armies invaded Israel on the very day of its birth, May 15, 1948, no quarter whatsoever had ever been given to a Jew who fell into Arab hands." That's a statement likely more unpleasant than anything David Irving ever said (or that we know he's said). It's also false, very clearly. On both counts, that should render him a totally unreliable source (except for "opinions of groups" that he was a member of, obviously). PR 17:42, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Evidently, that kind of material should not be quoted from Schechtman, since it is nonsense, and useless for an encyclopedia, being patently untrue (it fails to explain how Jews survived the diaspora in Arab countries etc), and is purely a piece of agitprop. Whoever uses that kind of prejudicial material is clearly not interested in writing quality articles, but in playing with the politics of disinformatsia.Nishidani 18:26, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

References

1. http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/155/2/298-a
2. //http://www.richardwebster.net/thecultoflacan.html
3. http://eatthestate.org/11-24/Primary07Attack.htm
4. http://www.munileague.org/CEC/2007/report/questionnaires/Szwaja2007.htm
5. Glazer, Steven. (Summer 1980) The Palestinian Exodus in 1948. Published by Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol. 9, No. 4.

Greek and Spartan pederasty from self-published primaries

Spartan pederasty and Pederasty in ancient Greece suffer from literal interpretation of historical primary, self-published sources which are known to be unreliable. For example, Claudius Aelianus's Varia Historia is used to claim that pederasty was legally mandated in ancient Sparta, but that work is "not perfectly trustworthy in details," and Aelianus's "agenda is always to inculcate culturally 'correct' Stoic opinions, perhaps so that his readers will not feel guilty."

I am tempted to tag all of the statements supported by primary historical source references with {{Verify credibility}} and remove those such as Var. Hist. which are known to be inaccurate. However, I have recently been in heated debates about this subject, so it would be best if someone else took a fresh look at the problem. 1of3 21:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

CIA - The World Factbook

Is CIA - The World Factbook a reliable source? On their web-site they say that they use the list of most reliable sources for their info, but they do not publish them because of the "Space considerations preclude a listing of these various sources.", thus some argue that because CIA - The World Factbook do not publish sources it is not trustworthy, moreover in some cases editors argue that it is biased. What do you think? andreyx109 19:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I have never heard the credibility of the Factbook questioned before. It seems to be a reliable source, so if there is a specific disagreement, it should be resolved by comparing various sources. International statistics are very complicated, due to the use of wildly differing standards from country to country. If someone is pointing out a discrepancy between the Factbook and another source, it's worth investigating and discussing. If someone is just objecting to the Factbook because they don't like it, their objection is unhelpful. <eleland/talkedits> 15:55, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

It depends on the situation and the claim. You can source many things from the CIA factbook, such as a the land area or population of a country. For those sorts of facts, I think this source is quite reliable. If you are sourcing info about the political leanings of a government, this might not be reliable because the CIA has a bit of an axe to grind with, for instance, Cuba. - Jehochman 16:00, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I looked into it a little more, and the issue appears to be Christianity in the United Arab Emirates on Christianity by country. However, the source which 88.106.77.208 used actually referred to the religions of foreign guest workers within the UAE, not to permanent residents. Given the large number of Sri Lankin, Filipino, etc workers in UAE there must be a lot of Christians there, but the vast majority of these people are residents for only a few years at a time. <eleland/talkedits> 16:58, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I am really sorry, but if you look into the references, which i have provided you will see that it states that of all the population (foregin and citezens) 9% are Christians. (foreign only 10% Christians).

The problem with CIA fact-book is in Discussion of Christianity by country, as editor of the article is arguing that CIA is not reliable source as it does not provide any references. If you want to investigate it further please check the Discussion board. andreyx109 19:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah, looks like you have a point there. I was misled by the "citizens" thing; apparently some 85% of the population are non-citizens (what a country!). Anyway you can work that out on the talk page, but the Factbook is a generally reliable source. Doesn't mean that other reliable sources can't be used, but it's reliable. The argument that "the CIA figure have no source" is nonsensical and confusing. <eleland/talkedits> 18:39, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

The CIA Factbook also has problems with not saying how they count, e.g., unemployment figures. I remember this was a problem with their numbers for Sweden in the '90s, as the Swedish government unemployment statistic was off by over 4%, which was more than could be explained by how many people were in training programs, etc. 1of3 01:41, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Reliable source question

Hello all, I would like to request your august input on the reliability of the following sources: http://www.fathermag.com and http://mensnewsdaily.com for WP articles.

On the Fathers' rights movement talkpage, and in particular we have one editor Rogerfgay who appears to be able to post his own articles (in response to requests for sourcing, see above on the talkpage) to mensnewsdaily.com. There is also another editor who is requesting input about an article written by Rogerfgay and cited to http://www.fathermag.com. Input on the acceptability of articles on these websites (including comments on editorial oversight etc) would wonderful before I respond anymore to any of this.--Slp1 01:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
While I am in the questioning mood and while you are at it, how about Glennsacks, the website of a prominent father's rights activist? The particular article in question is being used as a source as for the claims of opponents of the fathers' rights movement, (NOW) which seems to be in contradiction of "it does not involve claims about third parties;" though the article has also apparently been published by the the Houston Chronicle, so that may well make it a Reliable Source. Thoughts, please.--Slp1 02:35, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I knew this question of reliability and these sorts of websites reminded me of something in the past. Please see for a related discussion (though it isn't too easy to follow, I find!) Slp1 13:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

BLP/Categorisation/RS

The Nobel Prize for Economics has just been announced, and barely has the mike gone dead before various proud members of differing religions/ethnicities and nationalities are quarreling over whether various individuals are Jewish, Russian, Polish or American, or some suitable combination of those things and hyphens. (One of them is a fairly well-known atheist, but I don't see any atheists staking a claim here. No initiative.)

The reason I am posting here is simple: is this website a reliable source? It doesn't seem to meet any of the requirements, but I've already spent too much time on this question, and anti-semitism was implied at what must be record speed, so I'll be damned if I'm questioning it without backup. Relata refero 14:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I would say absolutely not, particularly for BLPs.--Slp1 14:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I would have to say, No, it is not reliable. The site gives no indication of who is behind jinfo.org. Do we know anything more about the orgainization that hosts the website? Is it a personal website? Is there any fact checking or editorial oversight? Without this info we can not call it a reliable source. This is not to say that the individuals lised are, or are not, Jewish... only that this website can not be used to support such a statement. Blueboar 14:30, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

When is the DoD not a reliable source?

Another wikipedian has made some assertion about reliable sources that I am quite skeptical of.

Short version. The DoD has released approximately 1366 memos containinng allegations against Guantanamo captives, and 673 transcripts from their Combatant Status Review Tribunals and their annual Administrative Review Board hearings. These 2039 documents contain allegations that were leveled against the captives.

This other wikipedian asserts that reporting that the DoD has leveled these allegations against the captives is a violation of {{blp}}. He assert that these DoD documents cannot be considered reliable sources, If I understand his concerns, he believes that the allegations can't be covered in the[REDACTED] unless he is satisfied they are true -- even though the first line of WP:VER says it is concerned with verifiability, not truth.

This other wikipedian has even gone so far as to assert that merely referencing the DoD documents constitutes original research and a breach of WP:NPOV.

Cheers! Geo Swan 02:04, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

IMO, the US DoD (Department of Defense) is a reliable source with regard to the allegations leveled against the persons in question. To be fair though, the DoD has come under fire in terms of the accuracy or lack thereof regarding the allegations it has made. It has an incentive to make the allegations stick. I would suggest noting in the article something along the lines of "The United States Department of Defense has alleged that" blah blah, rather than a generic "Mr. XYZ has been accused of" blah blah or the even worse "Mr. XYZ is a" blah blah. Ngchen 02:18, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I think I have phrased every reference to the allegations in a way similar to what you suggested. Geo Swan 03:03, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

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