Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 05:51, 8 August 2008

Merger

This is very biased nonsense against Italy, the Yugoslav forced assimilation was much worse. They murder many people. I suggest move this to Nazism it was part of that its not Italian. 121.45.41.47 (talk) 10:02, 30 December 2007 (UTC) Joe

I have proposed a merger of this page back with the Italianization. There is no reason to breake article's subsections into different articles. Clearly this is against Misplaced Pages's policy. --Raguseo 02:45, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Forced Italianization of Dalmatia and Istria occured in several periods: during Venetian occupation of Dalmatia (1409-1798) - Venetianization, during Italian administration in the area in 19th century and finally during Italian fascistic years in 20th century. This last Fascist Italianization was ideologically based on previous attempts and was meant to be finalization of it. Articles should be merged. Zenanarh 14:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The Italianizaton and Italian cultural expansionism/imperialism can be seen even today (one of best examples are revisionist and expansionist claims told by highest officials of Italy).
Regarding Italianization before fascism, that's known thing.
E.g., the persecution of Croat friars during Republic of Venice; then, the terrorist methods (perpetrated by pro-Italianists and tolerated by Austria) against pro-Croat voters in Austrian part of the monarchy.
So, I agree with merging this article back to the article Italianization. Kubura 14:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The article is correct as it is, it was recntly splitted. Italianization is a linguistic, historic, cultural phenomena. The fascist italanization is just a small aspect of this (and the worst, BTW). Other claims by R and Z. are disputable POVs. The same article is present even in the Italian, Norvegian and German wikipedia. --Giovanni Giove 23:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Fascist Italianization is part of the same phenomenon of Italianization. There is absolutly no reason to divide it like this. --Raguseo 22:53, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

That was it was done in 4 different Wikipedias.--Giovanni Giove 23:53, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't care about Italian, Norwegian and German Misplaced Pages, my concern is English Misplaced Pages. --Raguseo 00:10, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Italianization in Dalmatia during Venetian ruling was not a linguistic, historic, cultural phenomena! It was political, economical and cultural terrorizing of the huge majority of population. It can be presented by: persecutions of native Croatian/Dalmatian noblemen, anti-Slavic regulations by Venetian government, forced changing of original toponims, forbidden usage of native language (i.e. it was impossible to publish Croatian literacy in Zadar in 16th century, it was much easier to publish it in Venice! - for Venetians it was important that it's not published in the place of originating!!!), destroying of economical prosperity of the region and the natives, etc...
Italianization in 19th century: Italian language made official in Austrian province Dalmatia by faked documents - an act done by Italian immigrants-administrators removed from lost Italian provinces to Dalmatia by Austrian government, forced Italianization of personal names and toponims in Istria and Dalmatia, forbidden usage of any other language except Italian in public schools and gymnasuims until 1860 when Italians and pro-Italians lost their influence in the Senate, conducting of censi results in Istria and Dalmatia, etc...
All this cannot be described as Fascist Italianization! Zenanarh (talk) 18:57, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

So write an article about this supposed italianization by the evil Venetians, THAN propose again the merge.Giovanni Giove 13:55, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Many authors describe Republic of Venice as one of the most criminal state in Europe. That was not for no reason. During its history Venetian republic was involved into trading with slaves, caused dozens of international and inter-religious conflicts,blackmails.... Most shameful part was so called Fourth Crusade which included Siege of Zadar .

--Anto 08:43, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Double criteria

There seems to be be double criteria even today judging Romance and Slavic World. Romance is beeing treated as developed, progressive, and Slavic something filthy and aggressive by default.

• If there are beeing sold "souvenirs" with images of Hitler and Mussollini in Italy that's "freedom of speech and democracy". If somebody in Croatia attempts to sell something with an image of Ante Pavelić that's the sign of an obvious neo-nazism and expression of desire for new Jasenovac .

• When Italian is burning somebody's house that is the beautiful image, fire dancing on the wind and house dissappering in the song... If the Croat/Serb/Slovene somebody's house that is the pure racism or antisemitism.

• If Italian is that Juraj Dalmatinac was Italian that's their natural right. What else could be a great artist but Italian?? Surely not filthy Slav. If Croats are claiming that he was a Croat that's extreme nationalism.

• If Croatian football fan come to matches in Italy they are beeing announced and described as bands of barbarians who come to distroy beutiful Italy. When Italian hooligans kill the cop or when every week appear some incidents or car burning that's the product of Mediterranen temperament and Latino charm.

• If Italians are cheating with football matches results that's game. When Croats/Serbs/Slovenes do that that's the result Balkan outlaw tradition.

• If some Italian is travelling around the world and speaks no foreign language that is simpathic.

If Croat/Serb/Slovene is doing like that he is an illitarate barbarians.

• If Croats/Serbs/Slovenes are having war against neighbour countries that' because they were always in barbarian societies. If Italians are conquering foreign countries that is the widespreading of the beautiful culture. An all methods are permitted for it. Including wearing BlackShirts and rising right hand.

• If the Italians are linching Roma/Gipsy people that is democracy, respecting the desires of native population, defending the beautiful Italian culture from intruders. If the Croats are doing that they are criminals which should have been sentenced permanently.

• If the Italian fishermen are roberring in Croatian sea that's their natural right. Croats , of course have no right to fish in Italian part of Adriatic.

Croatians have never been attacking Venice, Ancona ,Verona....!!!

Croatians have never been bombarding these cities!!

Croatians have never occupied these cities !!!

Croatians have never been establishing concetration camps for the Italians in these cities , banning them to write and speak their language(s) !!!

At the end I will say something all Italians/Germans/Frenches/Americans/Spaniards etc :

Do not talk to me about your culture! Do not speak to me how great and beutiful it is !

I am quite conscoius of that . I am also quite conscoius of many bad thing of it. I am quite conscoius of the fact how are/were you ready to smash and distroy everybody who appears to be on your way. We all know what was the destiny of non-Indoeuropean population of Europe, Native Americans, African slaves , Jews in ww2 etc.

We must accept that all people are equal, have equal rights including to be protected not to become a victims somebody others' rights. Until we accept that ... it will not be good!

Peace with you!

--Anto (talk) 18:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Anto you seem to oblivious to the fact that your great uncles came to your present day lands via force, raping and murdering and pillaging all in their path. Barbarians were what you were called and that tradition was carried on after WW2 where your people murdered civilians because they were Italian, the first ethnic cleansing in Europe. We stuck you in school and gave you an education even if it was in Italian, we didn't kill you.

The lands that were returned to Italy after WW1 had a majority Italian population for many centuries until we kindly allow immigrants from yugoslav to come there. They repay our kindness by trying to take over it. 121.45.41.47 (talk) 10:09, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Dear 121.45.41.47 there was never an Italian majority in those lands. In the contrary there was just a small minority and the best part of it were not ethnic Italians, they were Italianized natives - Croats, Slovenes,... Learn some history first. Zenanarh (talk) 13:50, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

"Ethnical cleansing"? Dear child, there was a different policy towards those Italians who dirtened their hands against locals (Croats, Slovenians...) and towards those that didn't.
Otherwise, if Yugoslavia had as a goal to make ethnic cleansing of Italians, how come that Italians had their partisan brigade (and that was in every schoolbook), that there were memorial plaques (dedicated to Italians that joined to partisans) all over Croatia (Garibaldi brigade, if I remember well), that Italians had and have their TV-station in Slovenia, that Italians had and have their newspapers (and publishing house) and theatre and organizations in Croatia?
Second, don't mix those who escaped because of their feeling of guilt, or those who knew that they'll be punished (for their fascist activities and crimes against locals) with persons (manyof them Croats) who used opportunity to leave for the West and avoid advancing Communism. Oh, by the way, did Italy processed fascist officials? We've processed all those that collaborated with nazists and fascists (with very severe penalties, death penalty or losing or being stripped of all citizen rights wasn't rare case). Oh, speaking about "cleansing". How many Italians were colonized into Slovenia and Croatia (on occupied and annected areas, on Eastern Adriatic)?
Do you know for the data, that Italian authorities have brought personnel (teachers, artisans, engineers) from Italy into annected and occupied areas, in order to ensure functioning of system (and at the same time increasing the number of Italians there), becaue the locals have boycotted schools (and teachers and pupils) and work in factories?
At last, do you know what the term Italo-optants means? Kubura (talk) 08:10, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

This was "glorious rule of Italy" . On this link is a memorial plaque for the victims of fascism in Kampor on the island of Rab. Kubura (talk) 08:15, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Moving forward

Very interesting. Now how can all of the above (cited, of course) can be used to improve a one- or two-paragraph stub of an article that essentially doesn't even begin to treat the subject in any detail? Also, we need to keep the discussion here on topic: what can be done to improve this abbreviation of an article? 147.70.242.40 (talk) 21:06, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Cultural phenomena -no way

Italianization of the Eastern Adriatic coast can not be condidered as phenomena!

Cultural phenomena might be a volunteer iItaliazation of the Croats (or other ethnic group ) who live or come to live in an Italian majority regions.

Ex. Some Croatian family comes to Venice/Rome/ Florence . It is very probably that descendents of that family in the next generation will adopt Italian language and Italian identity. Volunteerily! there's nothing wrong about that. And nobody would ever blaim Italy for that! These kinds of things happen in every country. Minority accepts the identity of majority!

But the problem is when the minority wants to impose its identity to the majority! that's what is usually called apartheid!

It is very well known that in Istria Italians were relative minority (majority Croatian-couple percentages more to be honest) . And in Albania and Dalmatia they were absolute minority !

But it did not stop Venice , Genoa... (and later Italy) to invade those regions!

Fascist italianization was just one episode of that unhappy history . Motives and ideology was the same. Methods of blackshirts were just more brutal.

--Anto (talk) 12:12, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Joining articles

This article should be joined with Fascist italianization. Goals of the acts were same . Just with another players.

Don't remember that during Duce & his team were doing all those for "Italian cause" !

Article Germanisation was made properly. All other articles from Category:Cultural assimilation

From the medieval time up to modern times.

As this one should be !

--Anto (talk) 12:23, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Can anybody see who messed up with the history of article "fascist italianization"? It looks like it's much older article (from 7 Dec 05), although it was created much later (I must rely on my memory and on my previous messages ).
Look the history of pages:
- Italianization (so small article??) (1st edit on 5 oct 2007, move done by vandal Giove; his comment "moved Italianization to Fascist italianization: Better name")
- Talk:Italianization (1st edit is move by banned vandal Giove on 5 Oct 2007???)
- Fascist Italianization (1st edit from 29 Dec 2004, mentions "Italization" as title)
- Talk:Fascist Italianization (1st edit from 7 Dec 2005, doesn't mention adjective "fascist")
However, on 08:35, on 5 Oct 2007, article still started with "Italianization" . 14 minutes later, banned user Giovanni Giove started his edit crusade 17 edits in 1 hour and 11 minutes)... ending with redirect and contentforking article "fascist Italianization". See the bottom.
See this. This is the moment of creation of the article "fascist Italianization" , on 8 Oct 2007, on 09:32, by banned vandal Giovanni Giove. 2 minutes later, the title of the text is changed... by banned troll Giove.
As we see, the creation of article "fascist Italianization" is ordinary content forking and, as we say in Croatian, razvodnjavanje (pouring too much water in order to milden the original content).
Or someone wants to keep the legacy of proven troll alive? Kubura (talk) 07:41, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

El Shatt

Because of Fascist occupation of Dalmatia there were 30.000 refugees from Dalmatia (mainly women, children, oldmen) in the camps in Egypt (El Shatt). I can't find one mention of this in the articles. It's not in History of Dalmatia either. We should edit it. Zenanarh (talk) 05:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC)