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Edit this section for new requests

Temporary injunction in Abtract-Collectonian

The parties are directed to continue to comply with the existing editing restrictions detailed here until this case is resolved or until further direction of the Arbitration Committee. In the event of any disagreement concerning the scope of the restrictions, the parties should err on the side of caution and avoid any arguable violations. The parties are urged to present their evidence in this case as soon as possible and to indicate when they have finished, so that the committee can reach a prompt final decision which will supersede this temporary injunction. Nothing in this temporary injunction constitutes a ruling on the merits of the case or reflects any prejudgment that all, some, or none of the temporary restrictions will be included in the final decision.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, --Tznkai (talk) 21:57, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Ulster Defence Regiment

I believe there is gaming on this page at the moment. Domer and BigDunc are again trying to introduce a false concensus to introduce political material. In addition BigDunc has just removed information which I included with reference to a notable member of the regiment who has published a book. This was not discussed on the talk page. I have already reverted once on the page today and am unable to take further action however with two editors against me it looks as if I am again being gamed. I request admin support and decisions please. Thunderer (talk) 13:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

(sighs). As soon as I can, I'll go drop the hammer down on all of this. If someone can get to it sooner, please do. SirFozzie (talk) 19:25, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I removed infromation regarding a non notable member who wrote a book that is not even listed in the British Library I dont see anything being said about the major moves made by The Thunderer all without any discussion and as regard false concensus if four editors are involved in whether something should be added and three say yes then that is consensus is it not? BigDunc 19:31, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Dunc, I'm typing something up on the UDR page right now. Patience, padawan, please? SirFozzie (talk) 20:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

There's no two ways about this. The old team is up and running. I am being bullied and every attempt is being made to ensure this article is flooded with anti-crown sentiment and the neutrality is being compromised.Thunderer (talk) 20:05, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Alright, STOP. All of you. Right now. Back to your corners. I have attempted to try to start discussion on the UDR page. Let's end this right now. I have replied on the talk page, and will try some dispute resolution there. SirFozzie (talk) 20:09, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Who is all of you the only one making accusations again is the Thunderer it is his usual well poisoning. BigDunc 20:12, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Since the AE every single edit I’ve made has been reverted. There has been no dispute. Rather than revert, I’ve gone to the talk page and initiated a discussion. Currently there is a discussion titled “Proposal, History section.” Editors, bar one, have agreed that the information is relevant and should be included. Despite an open discussion, and no feed back, the information was reverted, and only then was the discussion resumed. In an attempt to avoid the editor again breeching the WP:1RR I’ve opened a discussion titled “Options for Change and amalgamation” rather than simply putting the information back in the article. The flip side of this has seen major edits, with the removal of whole sections, without any prior discussion on sections to be removed. This is despite being asked to slow down. The article is now blocked with the rational “Edit warring.” Only to be then informed that there is no actual edit war? I have again been reverted, suggesting that their was no prior discussion, however, no discussion was considered necessary for its removal. No discussion for example on what sections should be moved? I being informed that this discussion was held on a completely different talk page? I’d welcome some advice and opinions, because I’m at a lose to understand what is happening? --Domer48_'fenian' 20:25, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

If there's this much hassle at that article? move on to other articles. I've had to do this at European born NHL player biographies with diacritics in their names. GoodDay (talk) 20:31, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

What a superb suggestion. Leave the military history to us amateur military historians in other words?Thunderer (talk) 20:44, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Are you claiming to be a military historian now, if so what are your credentials for such a claim? Or maybe your buddy Ronnie is a military historian is he the same historian that wrote this tome for door men. BigDunc 20:49, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Military historian or not, all editors are equal on each article. Misplaced Pages is for the layman, not the professionals. GoodDay (talk) 20:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Now now Dunc. Keep yer wig on. Life's too short to get so annoyed about these things. Thunderer (talk) 20:53, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

(Undent)Two notes. One, the relevant article page is protected. Two, the involved editors managed to escape personal sanctions last time because they implied they had found a way to move forward, work together, fairness issues, etc. It would probably be a good idea to start showing a commitment to working together (perhaps using dispute resolution) instead of continuing the comment about each other on here. --Tznkai (talk) 20:55, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd suggest that all sanctioned editors avoid the articles that got them sanctioned. GoodDay (talk) 20:58, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Tzankai may I respectfully suggest you have a look at what I have contributed to the article since then. The advice I've sought, the opposition I've faced and the constant attempts to introduce more controversial elements to the article by my learned friends despite me posting the guildines for raising the article to A Class, which is my ambition. Have a look at the gaming of today and other days and how it has affected me. After you've done that, if you've not fallen asleep, I'd be very grateful for your opinion. Thunderer (talk) 21:00, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Very tempted to agree here. I encourage all interested administrators to review the events of today. I'm trying to encourage all folks to talk to me on the article, instead of at each other (there's a difference between talking TO folks and talking AT folks). Not much luck so far at least with at least some folks, but hope springs eternal. SirFozzie (talk) 21:02, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

And the Thunderers comments are all very helpful Fozz are they he has admited above that he is trying to drive editors from the article as they are not military historians like him. BigDunc 21:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

And I told him via email to back off on those comments, to not let tempers flare up.. SirFozzie (talk) 21:13, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

And therein lies a major problem IMO a lot of stuff appears to be happening off wiki I didn't receive a response to the email I sent you all I seem to get from you is assumptions of bad faith on my behalf. BigDunc 21:17, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Everyone listen to SirFozzie here. He is making the most sense to me on this one. I was going to full protect the article and found SF had already done so. Editors need to chill out and think of what brought these sanctions into being in the first place. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Temporary Topic Bans

Domer48 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
The Thunderer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
BigDunc (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

For continued disruption and arguments on articles related to The Troubles, the above three editors are hereby topic banned from any article relating to The Troubles, broadly construed, for one month. They are allowed to contribute to talk pages, but must relate any and all edits to the topic at hand.

Quite frankly.. everyone here has had enough of all sides here. Thunderer has let his temper slip. He's admitted such to me via email. He says, and I agree with it (to a point), that he's being provoked and stonewalled at every turn. Therefore, I'm removing the disruption at the source. At ALL sources. This is a mininum, not a maximum. The two sides will either get along with each other, or the temporary topic bans will become permanent. SirFozzie (talk) 21:26, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

This seems like a very good idea, although it may be extraprocedural. In the meantime, I'd suggest that Domer48, The Thunderer and BigDunc immediately seek informal mediation from MedCab or an agreed upon neutral party, with an eye towards formal mediation if that doesn't work. Other editors working in area should also considering working within the agreed upon mediation as well.--Tznkai (talk)

No arguments from this quarter. Although frankly I doubt it will be sufficient. This entire topic area has become so poisonous I'm starting to think that a mass bonfire alone will solve the problems. There's no particular reason for this: UK-Irish relations are perfectly fine at the moment; there's no pressing geopolitical crisis, and while The Troubles will always be a contentious area this should get better over time, not worse. What has happened here is simply that a whole bunch of tendentious POV-warriors on both sides have allowed to become entrenched. This set of topic-bans is long overdue. We do the encyclopedia no favours by mollycoddling those with severe WP:TIGERS problems. Moreschi (talk) 22:29, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

This is inadequate where Domer48 is concerned. Neither of the others has his track-record of problematic behaviour: Troubles arbcom, Famine arbcom, Famine topic ban. Assuming the worst, Domer48 simply switched from disrupting the Famine article, where now no work is being undertaken, to disrupting another instead. There could be a conspiracy to make Domer48 look bad by having trouble follow him around, but there is a simpler explanation. Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:40, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Rechecking my plague archives I see that Angus is correct. Moreschi (talk) 22:43, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

If someone wants to propose further actions against any/all editors involved, please, be my guest. I've stopped the disruption (or at least confined it to talk pages for now) at what I consider its source, but am willing to listen here. SirFozzie (talk) 22:47, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd suggest increasing the ban to three months in Domer48's case. One month on all Troubles-related articles, two months more on UDR-related editing. And can we please get rid of "broadly construed"? This matter falls within a narrow construction of "The Troubles". There's no reason why Domer48 should be banned from Thomas Francis Meagher or Irish National Invincibles. That'd be punitive I feel. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:06, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I endorse SirFozzie's action here and would consider further specific remedies. MBisanz 22:49, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

• I also feel that allowing this lot to comment on talk pages is far too generous. Half the problem is that WP:TALK is not properly adhered to (or, for that matter, enforced). A disruptive editor who sticks to the talk page can be almost as annoying as one who edits the article as well. Moreschi (talk) 23:15, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

What I was afraid of, broadly speaking was that Domer would just get himself stuck in on another article straight away (as you've noted, he's had trouble on the GIF article (although I would note that one of the reasons behind is GIF topic ban wasn't him at all, but was a banned user via IP address), the Troubles arbcom and this). Any suggestions on how to keep it useful without being overly broad? (edit:Add to reply to Moreschi) Moreschi, my thoughts were to try to provide a carrot to go with the sharp pointy stick.. to give us a chance to show that they CAN get along during that month's time. If they simply continue sniping at each other, instead of showing the community that they can work with each other, it's very simply remedied to A) Extend the topic ban long term, and B) remove the talk page exemption. SirFozzie (talk) 23:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC) SirFozzie (talk) 23:14, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. That's smart. Be wary of too many carrots, though. Ultimately it seems as though they don't just stop at the carrot: your arm usually gets bitten as well. Moreschi (talk) 23:23, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I can safely say my urge to supply carrots is sharply limited at the moment ;) SirFozzie (talk) 23:25, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I've stayed out of this for a few hours to allow you admins to get to the bottom of things. I have to say I'm disappointed in the respect that I have to endure sanctions too. My input on the UDR article has not been contentious. Where I'm having trouble is keeping un-necessary and controversial opinion off the article. If you examine the material I've been editing in, information about strcuture, adminsitration, formation, training, equipment etc but at the same time having to try and reduce the amount of cruft about Unionists or (in particular) Catholics out of it. I am the editor who managed to get the article raised from C Class to B Class. I am/was working to get it raised to A Class at Milhist. To do so there are a set of guidelines which all of us must follow. I believe I have followed those guidelines properly although it has been difficult with the sanctions and particularly with the bullying by Domer and BigDunc. Even today Fozzie will have noted that I posted on his talk page with concerns at 10.12am. My request for assistance was posted on this board at 1.52pm. No action was taken until after 8pm GMT. I think I did very well to fend off the abuse and gaming I had to put up with and at the same time enter into civil dialogue with another editor from Milhist who was helping out. Nor did I lose my temper. My reference to Fozzie in my e-mail was that I had been a little sarcastic in my final comments on the talk page, and that was it. No hot head, no childish tantrums.

I realise this isn't a democracy but if there's any sense of fair play amongst the admins here then I should be allowed to continue to edit the article along with others from Milhist in order to bring it up to A Class. I would certainly accept that any admin who was entrusted with looking in from time to time would expect my edits to be along the lines I have laid out and not pushing POV in any way, shape or form. That isn't my track record however so I have no fears there whatsoever. When Milhist have approved the article to A Class then it can be semi-protected or protected to ensure its integrity for the future and I will move on my next (hopefully much less controversial) project on Misplaced Pages which at the moment I intend to be a study of the Irish Militias from the 17th Century to their demise. You'll note I haven't included the Irish groups in my hope of appraisal. With such a controversial article I doubt I could get two people to agree on it for long enough to give it a class rating.Thunderer (talk) 00:31, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Thunderer you accuse me of bullying and abusing you where did this happen? BigDunc 08:18, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Thunderer has asked me to reconsider the sanctions put on him. He IS new to this conflict, but I'd really like IF we did lower the sanction on him (and I'm not going to be the one who does it, I'd much rather get other views on it.. that we assign him a mentor to help him navigate the rocks and shoals of these conflicts. I can't do that, not only am I at work for his prime editing hours, I don't have the knowledge to be an effective mentor here (and maybe my experience with Vintagekits is also praying on my mind). I'll leave it up to the community. SirFozzie (talk) 07:28, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

New to this conflict check his block log and check mine if you are going to reduce his sanctions then why am I not getting a mention. What exactly have I done that is disrupting this article? Would someone please let me know? I will except sanctions as long as they are the same as The Thunderers. BigDunc 07:39, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Could someone show me were I’ve been disruptive on this article? Can someone explain to me how you can have an edit war on an article with a WP:1RR restriction? Why is it all Troubles articles included in sanctions? This only affects two editors, as one is a SPA, and no disputes on any other Troubles articles? --Domer48_'fenian' 07:56, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I would be very willing to accept a mentor but I have the feeling that I wouldn't be a lot of trouble to whoever was assigned to me as my style of editing isn't contentious. My issue all along, just on this one article, has been to try and convince others not to make the article too controversial. The guidelines for A Class are pretty specific but some of the guys at Milhist have worked on A Class and Featured articles before and they can advise me too in fact several of them had been helping me over the past couple of days before this kicked off again. If the article could be raised to A Class I would possibly recommend the article then be placed permanently on the Protected list so that future editing could only be done with the supervision of an admin so that it no longer becomes the subject of the type of bickering we're seeing over Irish articles.

This has been a very difficult and steep learning curve for me but, despite the problems and possibly because of them, I have enjoyed my time on Misplaced Pages and I hope to be a useful and productive editor in the future. The one thing I'm sure about is guidance. There are a lot of good helpful people here and I am and have been grateful for their input since day one. Thunderer (talk) 09:55, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Sections such as this suggest to me that User:Domer48 is a tendentious editor. I regret to say, I cannot make sense of the diffs he's used to defend his conduct here, the first links I've tried have expired. At the same section page, it appears to me that User:BigDunc has signally failed to explain why he opposes the majority (though without being he's not being seriously unreasonable but he could easily be wasting the time of likely more productive editors). Sections such as this suggest to me that User:The Thunderer is a thoughtful editor striving for better articles and a better editing environment, whereas Domer48 is disruptive of both efforts. Exchanges like this suggest to me that Domer48 will never be a cooperative editor seeking consensus.

Hence: Domer48 - needs long term restrictions, BigDunc - needs may well need a warning and Thunderer - not sure, quick sample doesn't find objectionable edits. I'm seeking to be scrupulously fair, I am quite prepared have been back (twice) to re-examine conclusions I've drawn, based on feedback. Please note, I did not cherry-pick anything, these are just the first exchanges I found by going to their contribution records. I don't recall ever editing alongside any of these guys/gals either as myself or on this account. PR 10:36, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm very grateful for your comments PR.Thunderer (talk) 11:24, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm still bewildered. Why would ya'll (those who are temporary banned) want to hang around an article that ya'll got temp banned from? GoodDay (talk) 13:31, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think I'm hanging round. The talk pages are on my watchlist and I'm still interested in the outcome of the discussions and still have useful input (I think).Thunderer (talk) 18:00, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)PR you again say that I opposes the majority on the Sinn Féin article, did you even read the post I made. An editor implied that 11 editors had given consensus for a move I pointed out that in fact that was not the case. So please tell me what you are refering too because I can not see my opposition to any majority on that article. BigDunc 22:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Based on this section it's very hard to see how you conclude that it is not the case that people support a split. In fact your argument was that the views of people who haven't contributed recently don't matter, which is a highly dubious one. In any event, out of editors who have contributed recently four support a split with only you and Domer opposed, so yes you are opposed to the majority. Valenciano (talk) 18:37, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

No you are wrong on the date I posted that comment, were was the majority? Also I used Mooretwins argument against himself when he claimed that 2 editors were holding up the split out of 11 have you even read my post? As it stod when I made the post one definitly was for it 2 definetly against and as I stated I didn't know what your stance was at the time. I do now and the other editors who comment after I made my post. So again what majority was I opposing at the time I made the post? BigDunc 19:35, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Proposals

I've read various messages by the belligerents and in the case of BigDunc and The Thunderer specifically, I think the application of Hanlon's razor is illuminating. It really seems at the moment, no matter what the restriction, they can't seem to help themselves but fight, as a result of differencing perspectives an emotionally charged subject. That having been said, I believe both of them really are doing their best to improve Misplaced Pages, but the lack of assumptions good faith, spirit of cooperation and so on has made this impossible. I think its past time the two of them were put into a structured mediation process, because attempts at discouraging poor behavior have not produced harmonious editing. I argue that we have essentially two choices: to ban or severely restrict them from those sections of the project (their areas of major contribution, a difficult area needing editors), or to put some sort of structured guidance in place. Domer48 on the other hand, seems to have exhausted any trust or faith the community put into him. So, I have the following proposals, others feel free to offer suggestions:

• A1. Special structured mediation between Thunderer and Big Dunc: Keeping in mind the contentious and emotionally charged nature of the topic at hand, I recommenced a two editor mediation. One editor (agreed upon by Thunderer and BigDunc) will be on hand to help guide content disputes. Filtering sources, explaining the application of policies and so on, but will not enforce 3RR, blocks, protections, or the like, but can recommend the same. A second editor will be an administrator, (I would be willing, and have a few names in mind for those better qualified) who will keep the editor hat off, and adjudicate only along the lines of conduct: dealing with civility, 3RR breaches, protecting pages and so on. This is designed to keep any sort of possible appearance of, or actual conflict of interest from the administrator doing blocking and the like from interfering with mediation. This is my preferred proposal
• A2. Informal mediation between Thunderer and Big Dunc and perhaps others: An intrepid volunteer can arrange some sort of terms with whoever they feel is needed for mediation to work, and go from there.
• A3. Formal mediation between Thunderer and Big Dunc: A third option, is to simply pass the buck to the Mediation Committee and wash our hands clean of this entirely.
• B1. Article probation for Thunderer and Big Dunc under The Troubles discretionary sanctions: We can try this again, but I don't think that will solve the problem at hand.
• B2. Topic ban for Thunderer and Big Dunc: I also don't think this will work, but it is an option, although I'd strongly recommend asking for a larger community discussion than just those frequenting AE.
• C1. Placement of Domer48 under indefinite probation under under The Troubles discretionary sanctions: I think there is growing consensus that Domer48's value to that part of the project is outweighed by his disruptive behavior.
• D1. Domer48 recommended to community for an indefinite topic ban: see above.
• E1. Issue recommended to Arbitration Committee: An option that exists, but a poor one.
• F1. Current temporary topic bans are cleared

In case it needed to be made clear, I am recommending A1, C1, D1, and would be ok with A2 or A3 instead.--Tznkai (talk) 12:19, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I certainly don't mind supervision until this article is considered complete (brought up to A Class). My issues aren't really with BigDunc although he does appear to get swept along when Domer gets belligerent. The main issue on the article is content which dwells on the religious divide of Northern Ireland. Someone who could ajudicate on that would be useful because I would like to keep it to a minimum and concentrate on the missing aspects of the article, the actual workings and structure of this military unit. I'm not attempting to make the article devoid of controversial information. There are some controversial aspects which need to be there if it's going to be used as an accurate reference piece. I have felt, rightly or wrongly, that Domer has been using the article as an advertisement for the woes of the "Nationalist people of Northern Ireland", (real or imagined) and it's that which I feel is POV content. I'm happy to agree to a solution because it's a shame that this article isn't being edited because of disagreement.Thunderer (talk) 13:16, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

My observation is that the combination of you, BigDunc and Domer48 is one that inevitably leads to unacceptable disruption. Furthermore the combination of Domer48 and you also leads to unacceptable disruption. The combination of BigDunc and you does not. Without pointing fingers as which of you or BigDunc is more problematic or responsible, Domer48 seems to be a sufficient cause of disruption, but not a necessary one.--Tznkai (talk) 13:21, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it's time to allow others to try and improve the article-in-question. Ownership can sneak up on the best of us. GoodDay (talk) 13:52, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Theres a problem with that GoodDay... no one else is really stepping up to edit those articles.--Tznkai (talk) 13:56, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps they're scared to. I certainly would be. GoodDay (talk) 14:02, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Tzankai I think it's been evident for a while that Domer is the catalyst for the issues which arise. BigDunc and I can disagree but discuss and resolve issues and he doesn't seem to want to introduce contentious material. GoodDay, it isn't about ownership, that much I can promise you. It's about wanting to do the job right before moving on. I have in-depth, hands on experience of the subject and have the necessary ability to be neutral (I believe)in my approach to the controversial aspects of the regiment. Where I'm running into difficulty is persuading Domer to try and tone it down. He seems to want the article to reflect the controversy more than I believe is compatible with providing a neutral, factual reference piece. I firmly believe that, when I finish with the article, it will continue to be a source of problems unless it is protected. I think the same could be said of many articles related to the Northern Ireland "Troubles" and indeed articles on other ethnic conflicts throughout the world. I realise it's an unenviable task to administer these and only hope I can be of assistance in some way to resolve this current problem on Ulster Defence Regiment but backing off isn't going to solve it. All that would achive is an incomplete article which will be subject to more POV from editors with various sympathies - not just Domer. Thunderer (talk) 14:12, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Added an additional action: clearing the topic bans as F1, which I support if and only if any of the above proposals are done instead.--Tznkai (talk) 16:56, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

"Domer48 on the other hand, seems to have exhausted any trust or faith the community put into him." Now Tznkai since the AE, please provide me with a supporting diff for your remark above. Show me a diff which shows incivility, disruption of any actions contrary to the agreed sanctions. --Domer48_'fenian' 17:04, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I think a brief glance at this thread alone shows how little faith the community has in you.--Tznkai (talk) 17:14, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

With respect, you have not answered the question, please support your accusation with diff's. --Domer48_'fenian' 17:18, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I regret to say, this is the kind of conduct I found all over the 4 pages I visited where you and the others had been interacting. I might still be wrong, but it looks increasingly as if my sample size was adequate. (I've indented your comment to try and make it easier for people to follow in a regular fashion). PR 18:13, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, for that. --Domer48_'fenian' 20:10, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, lets flip this around for a second before I start cataloging every negative action you've made or comment someone has made about you. Find me someone who will defend you. Find me someone else willing to show me how much not a problem you are, how much benefit you bring to the project.--Tznkai (talk) 00:18, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Why should Domer48 find someone to defend him. I would have thought it was your job to show him the diffs where you say he has been incivil or distruptive, then maybe he will have the chance to defend himself. You have had enough time to do so and he has asked you often enough. As for the diffs PalestineRemembered showed to point out his bad behaviour, nonsense. Is it bad behaviour to ask a question? I have never interacted with Domer48, but looking at his recent history I can't see anything that would bring all this negativity down on him. Jack forbes (talk) 13:10, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Well here are some editors who considered placing personal sanctions on me alone wrong the last time you suggested them. Names familiar to this topic, and who I in no way endear my self with in the previous discussion (apologies). I do not feel I let any of them down since, however I can't speek for them. I can only find two Admin at the moment who have suggested I'm a benefit to the project and have some confidence in me, one is Alison and possibly the other is Rockpocket. I don't believe I have let either of them down on this occasion, but again I can’t speak on their behalf. Now I notice you have again put forward proposels to have sanctions placed on me, despite the fact you have still not catalogued every negative action I've made or comment someone has made about me. So I will ask again, with all due respect, please provide me with diff's which support the accusations you have made against me on this occasion, and warrent sanctions. --Domer48_'fenian' 12:14, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Domer, I'd like to interject here and I hope you don't mind? I don't think you're doing yourself any favours just now by challenging admins. You are coming across as confrontational again. That's not a criticism of you - everyone has a right to their own nature and style. My considered and respectful assessment of the current situation is that you need to show you're contrite. None of us can get it right all the time that's for sure but with the amount of people commenting on this surely you can see there's a problem which you need to address? Thunderer (talk) 12:54, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Thunderer, admins are editors like everyone else, and can be challenged like anyone else. I do think Domer48 has the right to ask for evidence of his misdemeanors, which doesn't seem to be forthcoming any time soon. I think the both of you are excellent editors and I'm sure you and Domer can work together, but where is the benefit in punishing one more than the other? It could in my opinion make the situation worse by making Domer feel hard done by. I think this thread has dragged on too long and a decision should be made as soon as possibe. Jack forbes (talk) 14:24, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Jack I appreciate your input. I'll reserve comment on most of what you've said because I don't want to appear opinionated. Suffice to say I have no grudge against Domer. Thunderer (talk) 15:19, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Are we blocked

Could someone clarify if myself, Thunderer and Domer are banned from Troubles releated articles as of yesterday. BigDunc 16:51, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

As it stands, yes. Which reminds me.--Tznkai (talk) 16:55, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Then why is Thunderer making edits to articles here in breach of sanctions imposed on the 3 of us. BigDunc 16:58, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I thought it was just the UDR article I was banned from. If I can get in to edit surely I can't be banned? Thunderer (talk) 17:02, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

No Fozz told you here that they were part of the sanctions too. BigDunc 17:04, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

The ban is a behavioral constraint as article-blocking is not yet enabled. It relies on the parties to understand the ban and know which articles they may and may not edit. Of course if the parties refuse to abide by the behavioral constraint, the only other option is a technical constraint of a block from all editing. MBisanz 17:06, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

If these are the offending edits, then yes they do fall within the topic bans, and the best thing for The Thunderer to do right now is to undo those edits until the topic bans are lifted.--Tznkai (talk) 17:13, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I do apologise. I've never come across this before. I thought if the article was open for editing then I could. I am so sorry and will revert straight away. Thunderer (talk) 17:47, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Further comments

Domer has asked me to clarify a bit.

• I find Talk:Ulster_Defence_Regiment#Proposal.2C_History_section to be a moderately disruptive thread. His trying to interpret consensus of a debate he is partaking in, is generally a bad thing, a neutral party should be interpreting it.They need different looking signatures!
• His comments here and here appear to be either trying to harass an IP for being an IP or trying to say the IP is another editor and reverting them for being that other editor.
• this would be him reverting to his version of an article, also without discussing the change.

After reviewing Domer's contributions, I think a topic ban from Irish articles may be the best thing for both him and the articles and would support sanctions to that end. MBisanz 12:07, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Im afraid your wrong on the Kevin Barry diffs if you read Alisons edit summary Protected Kevin Barry: Edit-warring against establised consensus by IP-hopping anon editor / totally refuses to dialog when she PP the article and also her comment here you will see that it is far from harrasement of an IP who has added the same content now for months using different ips without discussion and against consensus.BigDunc 21:19, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the response, and in reply could I point you to my comment here and Alison’s comments here. As to this diff here I would point you to my comments here. Now after reviewing my contributions, you will agree that every one of my edits on the UDR were reverted, without discussion. Just to clarify, could you possibly point me to were I said anything about consensus on the UDR talk page or this discussion? Since I know I haven’t could you possibly strike out your first point? In light of the comments of both myself and Alison could you possibly strike your comments on the second point, since they are without foundation. I did not revert to my version, I reverted to the consensus version, I’m not happy with this version but I accept it. --Domer48_'fenian' 14:13, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

(delurking for a second) - MBisanz, the Kevin Barry article is a bit of a special case, IMO, where the usual edit-warriors are working in relative peace. However, there's a persistent IP editor who's been warring on there for months now, inserting the same stuff again and again, switching IPs and repeating the process. The other editors are driven to distraction at this stage. While I appreciate that the article is under 1RR, I would consider Domer's reverts above to be under the clause of 'simple vandalism' for this one case only. It's not so much a content dispute (all the other editors dealt with that months ago on the talk page), but a disruptive, IP-socking editor - Alison 21:01, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Alison, thank you very much for that clarification it is very, very much appreciated. --Domer48_'fenian' 21:13, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I understand Alison, but it would be helpful if he would ping you or AIV for appearances sake. Also, pinging an admin would result in a block. MBisanz 03:19, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

The IP has been blocked but they keep changing llok at the article history. BigDunc 13:41, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Fragmented discussion

Discussion of this issue appears to have stalled with only one set of proposals to resolve this on the table. This is a fragment of a longstanding highly intractable dispute and we need to make sure that whatever we do this time sticks. I'm wondering whether we should simply delete the article and start over with swinging penalties for any user who does not play nice on the new article. Alternatively we need targetted topic/article bans and a new set of eyes to work on the article untainted by the dispute. I'm also extremely disappointed that the attempt to broker discussion leading to a comprehensive RFC has been completely ignored by one side of the dispute - this is extremely unwiki and does not show any evidence of these editors wanting to work colaboratively. I'm only juts back from a business trip and have a lot to catch up on. I'll comment more soon with more concrete proposals but I'm putting some first thoughts out for discussion. Spartaz 07:16, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know that deleting the article would solve anything. It would have to be rewrtitten and that would just reawake the controversy. I do have some new eyes going over it at the moment from Milhist. People who aren't interested in the subject matter from the Troubles point of view. Perhaps their involvement will help? Thunderer (talk) 10:02, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully. That's my belief anyway. Stubbing and restarting articles can sometimes be useful to cut to Gordian knot of intractable disputes about content. Spartaz 10:26, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

It wouldn't in this case in my honest opinion because this is a regiment which was raised in a controversial way in controversial circumstances and was the subject of controversy throughout its history. The trick in this article as far as I can see is noting the controversy but not allowing it to become the actual meat of the piece. My efforts have been largely in that direction.Thunderer (talk) 10:45, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion - the best solution is action against the source of disruption. However, if that's too difficult, another possibility is to ask both parties to re-write the article "Ulster Defence Regiment" from top to bottom on a Sand-box page. It would be relatively easy for the uninvolved to look at the different versions and judge which one was "more encyclopaedic". We might also discover useful things about the writing ability of different editors. PR 14:36, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Where is the policy that says there has to be a competition to see who is the best editor? Who would judge it, and would we all get to vote on it? Jack forbes (talk) 14:41, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Where is the policy that says we have to allow editors to behave in a way that fosters disharmony and discourages uninvolved editors from contributing to an article. I have made detailed proposals below to suggest a way of imporving the atmosphere around the UDR article. Spartaz 14:49, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

(indent) Could you possibly show through diff's were I have behaved "in a way that fosters disharmony and discourages uninvolved editors from contributing to an article?" I can provide just one, but the uninvolved editor is not talking about me? --Domer48_'fenian' 15:33, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

@Spartaz - I heartily agree - and almost deleted my suggestion after seeing your proposal.

@Jack - there is no policy or ground-rules or previous experience of this as a solution. But my experience is that articles have often take a "shape" which drives conflict. A fresh start not only gets over these real or imaginary road-blocks, it sorts out who are the serious editors, capable of seeing the whole picture. In many cases, such a solution might even cause the problem to resolve itself. Otherwise, the rest of us (either all, or just the uninvolved) could discuss or reach consensus on the resultant product. Product is more important that process, as we know. PR 15:11, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Further Proposals to sort this out

From my limited experience of this article I suggest the following solutions to solve the ongoing arguments at UDR. The proposals are not designed to be fair and are simply there to ensure that an environment exists to allow progress to be made on the article. My limited experience is that The Thunderer is mostly trying to edit towards wiki-norms and is striving to produce an NPOV product. Occasionally their temper gets the better of them and they are also liable to make newbie mistakes but appear to quickly acknowledge and learn from them. There is no reason why direct mentoring will not ensure that they edit appropriately from now on and I am willing, so far as my time allows, to keep an eye on them. Neither BigDunc nor Domer48 made any attempt to engage in my proposal to document the differences in the article to allow for a comprehensive RFC to settle this dispute. I was very disappointed that BigDunc chose to use my posting as an excuse to undo all of The Thunderer's recent edits and this seems to have lead to the current impasse. On the other hand they also shosed a great deal of patience and a willingness to give The Thunderer time to work on disputed sources that was above and beyond the call of duty. I strongly feel that progress will only be made while discussion takes place. We desparately need unaligned editors to work on the article but this will not happen while a poisonous atmosphere exists over the article. My experience is that of the two Domer48 is responsible for the majority of the agression in the article and their editing to add long laundry lists of opinion and commentry is effectively using the article to further a particular POV. This view is supported by their failure to properly adress reasonable concerns raised about this on the talk page by The Thunderer. I therefore have the following proposals to sort out this mess:

• Domer48 is indefinitely prohibited from editing the article page for Ulster Defense Regiment. They are prohibited from editing the article talk page for 6 months.
• The Thunderer is to be subject to compulsary mentorship for a period of 6 months and should be subject to a 0RR restriction for this period to prevent further revert warring.
• BigDunc to be subject to a 0RR restriction for this article for the same period.
  • By 0RR I mean that neither editor may revert another' edits unless there is unanimous another editors on the talk page to do so. Where there is a dispute over a proposed revert no action should take place for a minimum of 24 hours to allow time for calm discussion. The exception to this is that obvious vandalism may be reverted without penalty at any time. Unsourced material may be removed after 24 hours without penalty if sources have been requested on the talk page and are not provided.

The article Ulster Defense Regiment should remain locked for a period of 1 week to force the editors working on the page to agree the scope of the dispute and map out how the article should be improved. The article may be relocked at any time by any uninvolved admin if, in the opinion of that admin, the article is being edited in a combative or uncollaborative manner by any editor.

If, in the opinion of the involved editors, having a neutral admin appointed to adjudicate on content disputes would help, then this should also be supported. I'm certainly not the person for this for reasons I elaborated to BigDunc off-wiki and I will happily expand on this privately to anyone who wants to know what I'm on about.

Please feel free to flame, oppose or improve any of these suggestions. Spartaz 14:35, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I certainly wouldn't oppose anything you've mooted because I am so concerned that all of the admins who have worked on this for so long have had to give up so much of their own time to sort out an issue I'm involved in. Whatever the concensus is with the admins I'll go along with it. I don't believe I will have any problems working with other editors or with a supervising mentor. I thank you Spartaz and everyone else for giving their time free of charge on this.Thunderer (talk) 15:16, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your considered proposal. The only thing it lacks is the supporting diff’s for your views on my conduct. Could you please provide the diff’s to support you opinion. In the absence of diff’s your proposed ban on me is unsupportable. However, I would be perfectly willing to accept the same sanction of WP:ORR, like everyone else as it would possibly help. I would support any admin involvement, such as both your and Rockpockets intervention to clarify policy and to insure that WP:TPG is adhered to at all times. While I'm under no obligation too, I would voluntarily agree to not place any edits on the article until it had been agreed to on the talk page. --Domer48_'fenian' 15:18, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm tired as hell (a 2-10 PM shift became a 2 PM-6 AM shift due to unforseeable circumstances), and I just really want to go back to sleep, but I said I'd chime in.. so.. here I am. I'm good with what Spartaz is proposing. Right now, the amount of insular heel dragging is not good. Thunderer did a good thing and got an outside project's help in looking at the article from a different angle. Domer (and to a lesser extent Dunc), seemed to me to stonewall this, because they wanted the main UDR article to have all the criticism they could get in there (this is just my opinion). I'm not saying that it's not notable, or not sourced, but with the amount of information in the article, it really would be best served by summarizing it in the main article, and having a link to a Criticism of the Ulster Defence Regiment" article where it could be fully explored there.

Also, there is a base thought, held by some that Domer and Dunc are acting in tandem on these articles, to arbitrarily win these battles because it's 2 on 1. That is, one of them posts, gets reverted, and the other one re-reverts, and it sticks because everyone's at their Revert limits. I don't 100% agree with that, but I do think it's prudent to remind Dunc and Domer that even the PERCEPTION of "excessively coordinated editing" (see the recent Cla68/JzG/FM Arbcom that just ended, where this was a finding) is a bad thing. Thunderer needs to make sure that he continues to avoid being provoked into comments that he shouldn't make (there was at least two that come to mind, one he self-reverted, and one or two others I can think of that sounded condescending). Dunc and Domer need to be more open to changes on articles they work on (especially keeping in mind WP:OWN) in both format and content. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to get another hour or so of shuteye before I go in to work. SirFozzie (talk) 15:34, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I can be a sarcastic bugger. It's mostly intended as humour but can be used as a barb sometime. I am guilty as charged sir.Thunderer (talk) 15:53, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I've been away for a week (visiting the lovely state of Tennessee, as it happens) and missed all the fun again. I've not yet had time to piece together the events that led here, so I'm not going to comment specifically on who did what. I will state again, though, that I believe all the editors involved do have good intentions in improving the article and simply have trouble working together. Strictly respected third party mediation combined with restrictions on unilateral editing would largely solve the problem, I think. I worked with all parties on the article before with some success, but the problem was I could not (and still cannot) spend as much time on the article as the other editors do. I don't really see the value in sanctioning one above the others and would propose across-the-board 0RR, rather than an additional, indefinite article ban on Domer. Those are my thoughts. Rockpocket 19:38, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I personally feel that these proposals are not going to work out. Previously, UDR was already under a 1RR restriction, and users reverted anyway. Inter editor communication and goodwill got worse, not better, so increasing the reversion restriction is only going to encourage system gaming, the appearance of system gaming, tag teaming and/or the appearance of tag teaming, accusations of the above, and a general loss of good will. While UDR is the current locus of the dispute, I feel that it is reasonable to think that the dispute will move with the editors. These new proposals still do not produce the thing most needed: cooperation between users. While removing Domer48 from the situation I think would be helpful as it he seems to be prone inflammatory edits (reinserting a section that Thunderer had spun off into another article was certainly ill advised), it does not create any sort of mediation between BigDunc and The Thunderer, the proposals seem to hope that such cooperation will become produced by restrictions. Instead I submit, that someone will trip the 0RR, and that the other editor will continue editing, and this will harm any trust and good will between the two.--Tznkai (talk) 20:11, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Rock for the constructive positive and productive proposals, they have move this discussion towards a more constructive approach which can only reduce some of the current tension. However, in light of Fozzie’s comments above, supplemented by Tznkai, I would respectfully like to withdraw my support for any and all proposals put forward in this discussion. That Fozzie made a conscious decision to continue to put forward allegations with no supporting diff’s, and Tznkai's being very selective, is in no way conducive to a productive resolution. I would however like to put forward a proposal of my own for consideration.

• That a neutral outside opinion conduct a review on the conduct and contributions of Admin’s and Editors on the UDR Article since the close of the last AE discussion, and the imposing of page protection. Since the time frame outlined is not very long, this process should not take to long.
• That the sanctions agreed on the previous AE form part of the review, considering it effects and application.
• That all conclusions be supported by diff’s, and concerned editors / admin's be afforded the opportunity to respond on their respective actions i.e. conduct and contributions.
• That remedial proposals be put forward based on both the conclusions and responses of the neutral outside opinion and concerned editors/admin’s.

This is just a proposal, based on common sense and logical sequence. That the current system, as it stands is based on comment, opinion and assumptions and attempts to apply solutions without first having identified the problems makes no sense. AE applied sanctions, lets find out why they did not work before devising new ones.--Domer48_'fenian' 21:47, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Do we have a conclusion?

Just wondering if everyone's made their minds up yet what's to happen? Thunderer (talk) 11:11, 17 October 2008 (UTC) Just wondering

According to Domer, no. The topic bans are still in force, until and unless something is agreed to replace them. SirFozzie (talk) 11:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I am putty in your hands sir. Whatever is decided is fine by me. Thunderer (talk) 11:18, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be a lack of consensus to do anything at the moment. Might I suggest there is an opportunity for someone, say you or BigDunc to take some initiative and suggest something.--Tznkai (talk) 12:39, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I have invited another editor to be my mentor for the UDR page hopefully he will accept and that would be a move forward.Thunderer (talk) 12:41, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect to the editors in this discussion, I like to make a couple of points here. First, I did not start this tread, I made no accusations, and I did not propose or breech any AE sanctions. I was subjected to a number of accusations however, and have yet to see any supporting diff’s which would result in me being placed under any sanctions. To suggest then, that I am holding up concluding this discussion is quite bizarre. In fact I’m at a loss to know what this whole thing is about now.

To be told that I’m still to be subjected to a topic ban on all Troubles articles, can only prompt one question, why? I have asked a number of editors to address a number of questions I had and the answers have been few and far between.

Now I will agree there is a problem with the UDR article, and that it resulted in an AE. That the AE proposed a number of remedial measures, and despite this were all back here. For my part I made a proposal above to identify what the problem was and to date there has been no response. I see fellow editors propose and suggest alternative measures in the absence of any review since the date of implementation of AE sanctions and page protection. What I suggest now is that if editors wish, I can compile a review of the conduct and contributions of the edits in this narrow time frame, though it would be wholly inappropriate as an involved party.

So the question to be asked now is, who initiated this AE and why? Why was the UDR article page protected? Why are three editors currently under a topic ban on all Troubles articles when this is confined to just one? Who is going to review the UDR article since the AE to identify what the problem is? Thanks, --Domer48_'fenian' 17:28, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Will somebody answer Domer's questions? GoodDay (talk) 17:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I didn't initiate the sanctions, or accuse Domer of holding up progress, but as to the rest, but from my review of the most recent UDR issues, and my considerably more extensive review of the previous debacle, Domer48 is a participant and likely a cause of the disruption. He has made inflammatory edits, implied talk page consensus where the is none, applied policy as a bludgeon, and has in no way shown he has at all learned how not to edit war, which a brief glance at the history of UDR, for example, will show. Furthermore this is not an isolated incident, but the latest in a series of conflicts ranging across the Troubles related articles (involving the same editors) which has included hounding Thunderer through requests checkuser and accusations of sock puppetry despite being told repeatedly to let it go. To Domer's credit, that issue has not come up again since the previous issue, but it does go to explain why no one seems to be willing to give Domer the time of day, and why a seemingly isolated incident is being treated as a larger problem, because it is.

I have answered some of Domer's questions at various times, (see his talk page) but it is an exhausting process, it will likely take me an entire weekend to go through all of it and with no real obvious gain to be had from it. By comparison I seen great attempts at reconciliation and progress from both The Thunderer and from Big Dunc.

As for his proposals, they are patently ridiculous: a paper thin invitation for a witch hunt which has a place in the real world politics, but no place on an encyclopedia, they will produce nothing but more finger pointing and more protestations of innocence.

Oh, and the number of times he has spent accusing me of abusing power or being selective or otherwise disingenuous is a poor way for him to get me to humor him, but I will continue to do so anyway.--Tznkai (talk) 17:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

In response to your now redacted section, Tznkai, I can tell you this, you were right the first time. SirFozzie (talk) 18:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Your comments are quite inflammatory which can only increase tensions and are therefore in my opinion disruptive. You should consider rescuing yourself from this discussion, as your continuous accusations relying only as they are on your opinions have no place here. The time frame in which we are dealing is quite narrow, from AE till page protection. That you are still unable to provide any diff’s to support your opinion or proposed sanctions is quite informative. Your comment “no one seems to be willing to give Domer the time of day” I find to be quite offensive, and grossly uncivil, and so far removed from reality as to raise questions as to your competence to hold the position you now enjoy. Therefore, in an effort to remove your opportunity to continue to insult me, I will decline to respond to your taunts and hope that someone with more experience can address your unacceptable behaviour. That you have chosen to personalise this to such a degree as to become personally offensive should in my opinion raise concerns among the wider community, who you continually suggest to speak for. --Domer48_'fenian' 19:01, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

People interested in diffs of examples of Domer's disruptive behavior can look the ones I provided at Domer's talk page, and at an unfinished report in my user space, but I'd say his behavior in this thread, the talk pages, and his edit summaries as seen on in the Ulster Defence Regiment page especially speak for themselves.--Tznkai (talk) 19:11, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Announcement

I have now accepted mentorship for the UDR page from User:PalestineRemembered. Thunderer (talk) 13:28, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

If we're even considering mentorship, I can tell you now that PR is not one bit suitable. He's probably one of the most unsuitable people of the project! We want you guys to learn how to approach disputes better, not edit war, POV push and soapbox! I strongly advise you to look for someone else. Ryan Postlethwaite 13:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I accepted him because he doesn't edit the UDR page and I have had no previous contact with him, therefore he can be neutral from both perspectives.Thunderer (talk) 13:58, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

No, quite a lot of view his editing as disruptive. He really is a massive POV pusher and just about all his talk edits are soapboxing. You can find someone a lot better, trust me. If you want, I'll take you under my wing. Ryan Postlethwaite 14:00, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate the offer but can I see the opinions from the other admins first please?Thunderer (talk) 14:07, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to speak the benefits of mentorship itself, but if you do decide to go down that road, I would urge the selection of a mentor who has not been involved in disputes over ethnic/cultural articles. MBisanz 14:38, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

While I think the Thunderer can take any sort of informal mentorship from anyone he wants, it does not seem that PR enjoys enough support from the community to resolve the issue at hand. I personally am still holding out hope for the parties to go ahead for mediation, and have received some indication that might work out.--Tznkai (talk) 14:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm a little unsure now. I have taken PR at face value and see no reason to turn his offer down.Thunderer (talk) 15:09, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I'd be very grateful if somebody could make the decision for me here please.Thunderer (talk) 16:23, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the point is that you can accept advice from anyone you choose. But consider this: the goal of mentorship is to assist you in avoiding POV editing and help you edit harmoniously with others on a controversial subject. Is PR's record consistent with this (and I say that with zero personal knowledge of PR's contributions)? My suggestion would be to accept Ryan Postlethwaite's kind offer. Rockpocket 18:20, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Thunderer, with no offense meant toward PalestineRemembered.... I'd be a LOT happier if you accepted Ryan's offer, with or without further mentoring from PR. SirFozzie (talk) 18:34, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

PR speaks - it seems strange that people who've had content disputes with me would suggest that Thunderer would somehow suffer harm. Whether I'd be a good mentor for another editor is of course not for me to say - but people who examine my edits (you'll find 5 of them on this page) will know I'm either pretty careful or very, very, very careful indeed. PR 19:22, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

If I've followed the trail correctly, User:Ryan Postlethwaite used to be your own mentor, and he resigned this position with a recommendation that you be banned by the community, since your behavior did not improve under mentorship. . The fact that there was no consensus for your banning does not lessen the strong disapproval of your actions as an editor, voiced by the community at that discussion. In fact, in closing that discussion the closing admin had this to say about you:

PalestineRemembered has gained for himself over the years a "cloud over his head", whereby he is clearly not regarded well by substantial volumes of the community. Indeed, that may be for good reason -- PR's past conduct has not been exemplary, to say the least, and the fact he has recently ran through 4 mentors (one of whom has actually filed for a community ban) is not exactly heartening.

. As someone being mentored, you do not seem well suited to the role of a mentor yourself. NoCal100 (talk) 21:11, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Separating out the participants

It seems that we're in fairly broad agreement on what to do with BigDunc and The Thunderer, that they are at least TRYING to work together in a collegial manner. It's what to do with Domer that's the bone in everyone's throat at the moment. Here's some thoughts on what to do here.

A) Remove the Topic Bans on Thunderer/BigDunc (replaced with some combo of 0RR/mentorship), leave 1 month topic ban on Domer. I know polling is evil, but other then the participants, does anyone think that we WOULDN'T be back here in one month once it ends?

B)Remove the Topic Bans on Thunderer/BigDunc (replaced with some combo of 0RR/mentorship),extend topic ban on Domer. The ban can be extended for a set length of time or made indefinite, and we can see if Thunderer and Dunc can work together with out worrying that the balance would be upset in a matter of weeks.

C)Remove all sanctions applied in this thread Which is what Domer seems to be asking for here, but I don't see much, if any, support outside of his arguments.

D)Apply to have Ulster Defence Regiment and Criticisms of the Ulster Defence Regiment placed under flagged/sighted revisions. Sounds like this could be a good first test case for using flagged/sighted revisions. Not sure the developers would be sanguine about bringing a new[REDACTED] feature on EN-WP for use only on a single article, but it's an idea to consider with any of the other options.

E)Status Quo I'm not sure this would be a way to solve the situation, it seems like more all it would be doing is postpoining the situation. It seems more like punishing Thunderer/Dunc for others actions.

I welcome other options, and thoughts to this. But my general thoughts on this is that at least with Domer, the general consensus of the community is that he's exhausted community patience with regards to these articles. Misplaced Pages's editors (both administrators and content editors alike) as a whole has had to deal with Troubles articles being made a Battleground for over a year now, (at least I've been trying for at least 18 months to get these sides to fully work within Misplaced Pages's rules and policies).

If Domer thinks he is harshly done by in whatever suggestion is finally followed, he is free to bring it to the attention of the Arbitration Committee, of course. I wouldn't recommend it, as we all remember the drain on all editors from the first Troubles ArbCom case. Also, ArbCom would be just as free to ADD to the sanctions as to soften the sanctions as they see fit... but it wouldn't seem fair not to remind him he does have that option. SirFozzie (talk) 22:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to add F) Remove the Topic Bans on Thunderer/BigDunc (upon agreement for formal mediation), maintain topic ban on Domer and G) Remove the Topic Bans on Thunderer/BigDunc (replaced with formal mediation), extend topic ban on Domer. I've spoken peripherally to various people involved, but it would be up to Thunderer and BigDunc to take the initiative to find a mutually acceptable mediator from the Mediation Committee. I'd support G, F, B, A in that order--Tznkai (talk) 23:58, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I certainly don't want to insult PR by refusing his mentorship now but I will gladly accept Ryan's offer too. Two mentors is better than one. As I've said before, I'll accept whatever deal is going because the admins have been doing their best and they need some support from the participants. I'd really just like to get back to productive editing at this point. Thunderer (talk) 11:38, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

• I support retaining the topic ban on Domer48. Their aggressive and combative approach to this AE shows that they are not well suited to editing collaboratively in a disputed area of this type. The longer the better as far as I am concerned because its obvious that the problems will resume as soon as any ban ends. I also support releasing Dunc and The Thunderer from their topic bans. I suggest that 0RR restrictions and absolute requirements to seek agreement on disputed edits on talk pages be the minimum condition for their continued participation. I agree with Tznkai that mediation between them would be useful but since mediation is supposed to be a voluntary process I would not agree with it being made a condition - that said I do strongly urge both to consider mediation. Finally, I continue to feel that a referee is required. If both parties agree on the ref I don't see that I needs to be an admin. Are there any editors that both parties feel they could agree on? Spartaz 12:30, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

You, Tzankai, Fozzie, Ryan & a host more.Thunderer (talk) 12:36, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

• I don't support a topic ban for Domer, Thunderer nor Dunc, because I feel 0RR across the topic, mentorship and a few willing third party referees that the participants respect would better serve the encyclopaedia. Domer can be caustic in some circumstances, no doubt, but he is also extremely knowledgeable about this subject, it would be sad to lose his input completely. If that is not agreeable, then at least permit him to contribute to talk pages, where he can share his expertise. I would be willing to volunteer to act as a third party referee on UDR and related pages, but I'm in a very different timezone and would recommend that at least one additional person share the position (preferrably someone in Europe). Rockpocket 16:48, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Rock, I feel I must interject here. Domer is NOT knowledgeble about this subject. The only thing he appears to have any passion for is finding material which is critical of this regiment. He has contributed nothing to the actual article itself other than multiple opinions of thew critical points and that's why we are having difficulties. He cannot accept that there's a point whereby the criticism is addressed and that further examples are repetitious and are slanting the synthesis.Thunderer (talk) 16:56, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I was meaning knowledgeable in the wider context of the Troubles, rather than the UDR itself, which a topic bad would restrict. And yes, there is an issue with ensuring critical content is not given undue weight in that article. Rockpocket 17:44, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

To what end however? From what I've seen Domer's main goal on all the Troubles related articles he participates in is to write the history in a way that is only sypmathetic to the "Nationalist" cause.Thunderer (talk) 18:01, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

From what I've seen Domer's main goal is to improve the Troubles related articles as he sees it. His personal views obviously influence his contributions, as do all of ours. With respect, you're probably not the most independent reviewer of Domer's motives on the UDR article, because you have a pro-UDR conflict of interest (one which you have been quite open about). It isn't a problem having one editor provide content from one POV while another provides content from another if they can work together, in good faith, to ensure both are balanced to create a nuanced final product. It happens all the time on other controversial subjects without the need for external policing. Its not happening here. I believe the best solution for a balanced article is assisting all contributors in working together, not removing one of them. Rockpocket 18:21, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think Domer has much to contribute to this particular interaction but disruption myself. I think a month of time off from the topic for Domer48 will be good for the article, Big Dunc, Thunderer, and for that matter, probably Domer as well. And Spartaz's point about mediation being voluntary is well taken, but I think that if they had a mediator, they could work out reversion rules with that mediator--Tznkai (talk) 17:28, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think you are right but the problem is that The Thunderer seems to be the only partly willing to consider mediation and neither BigDunc nor Domer48 have shown any willingness to give ground to The Thunderer. These proposals are really nothing more than an enforced outcome because of the absence of meaningful mediation and, were the parties all willing to follow mediation we would never have reached this point. Spartaz 17:43, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I've had some contact with BigDunc, and have reason to hope that will move forward towards mediation. Also fixed some apparent typos in your reply.--Tznkai (talk) 17:48, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec & rethreaded for clarity)I'm afraid that I'm not seeing any evidence of movement on their part. Their long list of diffs clearly designed to blame The Thunderer for the trouble is a case in point. I'd say that we should enforce but can consider relaxing enforcement if the parties subsequently enter voluntarily into mediation and progress is made. No need to fix my typos by the way. :) I doubt anyone would seriously believe a typoless post from me hadn't been edited by someone else anyway. Spartaz 18:02, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

If you mean the long list of diffs down there, thats Domer, not BigDunc, their sigs are just similar at a glance.--Tznkai (talk) 18:08, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Whoops. yes I misread that and yes you are right BigDunc is not the main obstacle to progress here and with mediation or appropriate sanctions would be able to edit without problems. I see no reason why sanctions against them and the thunderer would not be relaxed if meaningful mediation took place or, at the very least, they showed that they can be trusted to edit collaboratively given their different points of view. Spartaz 18:15, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I would support the comments of Spartaz earlier today.Traditional unionist (talk) 17:53, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Care to be a bit more specific?--Tznkai (talk) 17:54, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

That's what I endorse.Traditional unionist (talk) 18:01, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I would have to speak up for BigDunc here and say that his attitude is very different to Domer's and BigDunc has definitely interacted with me through discussion and editing over the last several months.Thunderer (talk) 17:59, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Hence my view that they should be allowed to continue editing this area. Spartaz 18:09, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

"Their long list of diffs clearly designed to blame The Thunderer for the trouble is a case in point." Spartaz, that is clearly a conclusion you have drawn, I however have made no such conclusion. That none of you have provided anything to support your opinions is very telling , and still suggesting sanctions? --Domer48_'fenian' 18:19, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

There's a good reason why my list of diffs is longer than everyone else's. I have contributed more to the article than other editors - by far.Thunderer (talk) 18:31, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

You have also removed and reverted more than anyone else. --Domer48_'fenian' 18:41, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe that's the reason we're here - why I removed and reverted edits by you (in particular).Thunderer (talk) 18:45, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I perfectly amenable to both mediation and mentoring and see it as one possibly solution to the current impasse. 0RR on the UDR article would also help along with a third party referee agreeable to all, would also be another avenue worth exploring. --Domer48_'fenian' 22:59, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Review of edits on UDR

Adding this lot to the discussion in this format is unhelpful as the page is already too long. I have collapsed it before the page self destructs. Feel free to put this on a su¨-page or somewhere in user space and link to it. Spartaz 17:52, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Summary of review

• User:Domer48 Insert: 12 Remove: 1 Reverts: 2 Removing Whole Sections: 0
• User:BigDunc Insert: 6 Remove: 10 Reverts: 2 Removing Whole Sections: 0
• User:The Thunderer Insert: 69 Remove: 44 Reverts: 22 Removing Whole Sections: 5

The edits of User:BigDunc and User:Domer48 were all subsequently reverted.

--Domer48_'fenian' 18:08, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

This doesn't actually allow for the different editing style where the Thunderer tends to make small incremental changes in sucession so many edits are effectively one revision. Just looking at the numbers is not illuminating of the reality. Spartaz 18:12, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Domer and Bigduncs sections are missing the edit summaries for some reason.--Tznkai (talk) 18:16, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

The edits have now been provided for you all, why not use diff's now to support your opinions? --Domer48_'fenian' 18:21, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec)-> User:The Thunderer has accepted two mentors - part of the value of this process is that editors with whom they have content disputes have an avenue to discuss conduct issues without personal confrontation. I've had no notification of the difficulties indicated in this listing.

@Domer - I appreciate that a lot of work has gone into your listing - but I would like to know what policies of the project you think might have been infringed.

At this point, I think I should notify User:The Thunderer that I totally disagree with the injunction "This is a talk page for mentors only. If you have a comment for me and you are not mentoring me then please leave it at My Talk Page." he has placed at his mentorship page here. The whole point of this exercise is that editors such as Domer can challenge your conduct at a place other than article TalkPage or your own UserTalkPage. I would not criticise Domer for ignoring your instruction, removing his evidence from this page and placing it at your Mentorship Page. PR 18:07, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Done.Thunderer (talk) 18:28, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I have infringed none what so ever. --Domer48_'fenian' 18:27, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Extended content

AE case closed on 5 October 2008 at 18.02 by Rlevse. All Troubles Articles placed under 1RR. The template below was posted on the Ulster Defence Regiment on 5 October 2008 at 20.00 by SirFozzie. > This article is currently subject to Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/The_Troubles#Final_remedies_for_AE_case, as laid out during a previous WP:AE case that closed October 05, 2008. If you are a new editor, or an editor unfamiliar with the situation, please follow the guidelines laid out in the above link. If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it on this talk page first. Editors will note: If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it on this talk page first. Article was Page Protected on 14 October 2008, 20:10 by SirFozzie I have placed the edits on the Ulster Defence Regiment here to be reviewed by Editors. The edits of User:BigDunc and User:Domer48 were all subsequently reverted. I have omitted all format / grammar edits, however were formatting was also reverted I have included them. Edits and contributions since the 5 October 2008, 20.00. - 14 October 2008, 20:10 User:Domer48 Inserting text: , , , , , , , Removing text: Reverting text: , User:BigDunc Inserting text:, , , , , Removing text: , , , , , , , , , Reverting text:, User: The Thunderer Inserting text: “Belfast and other urban settings” , “Battalions and locations”, “Politicians (order by rank, where known)” “History” , note, “Criticism” , note, , , , , , , , “Infiltration by paramilitaries” , , , “The Subversion in the UDR report” , , , , “Subsequent Catholic recruitment”, “Options for Change and amalgamation” “Rural ambushes and attacks”, , “Mortar attacks” “Uniform, armament & equipment” , , , , “Recruitment”, “Duties” “Music”, “Attempts to prevent paramilitary infiltration” “Politicians (order by rank, where known)”, “Intro”, “Formation”, , , , , , “Annual training camps”, “Awards, honours and decorations” “Comparison with the Irish Citzens Militia”, , “Bibliography” “The Men” “Training”, , “Male personnel”, Removing text: “Criticism” edit summary “Rewriting section”, , , , , , , , “The role of ex-B-Specials in the UDR and the effect on Catholic recruitment” , , “Options for Change and amalgamation”, Max, , , max, , “Battalions and locations”, , “Attempts to prevent paramilitary infiltration”, , , “Targeting by the IRA”, “Rural ambushes and attacks”, “Formation”note “Recruitment”, “Intimidation” “Infiltration by paramilitaries” “Subsequent Catholic recruitment”, , , , , , “Uniform, armament & equipment” “Structure”note Reverting text: “Infiltration by paramilitaries”, , “Options for Change and amalgamation” “Criticism”, , “History” “Rural ambushes and attacks” “Subsequent Catholic recruitment” “Battalions and locations” “Belfast and other urban settings” “Formation”, “Loyalist Intimidation” “Uniform, armament & equipment” “The Greenfinches” “Attempts to prevent paramilitary infiltration” “Aftercare” “The whole article”, note edit summary “Male personnel” Removing whole sections , , , , 2nd revert User:Domer48 Insert: 12 Remove: 1 Reverts: 2 Removing Whole Sections: 0 User:BigDunc Insert: 6 Remove: 10 Reverts: 2 Removing Whole Sections: 0 User:The Thunderer Insert: 69 Remove: 43 Reverts: 22 Removing Whole Sections: 5 I will put together some diff’s on talk page contributions, on how they relate to main space edits. I have refrained from putting forward any analysis, until this has been reviewed. --Domer48'fenian' 17:34, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

British Isles : Users User:HighKing and User:TharkunColl

This underlying dispute is related to Troubles in a way, so I feel like the remedies there could be useful. One user (TharkunColl) adds the term "British Isles" (referring, in general, to the area on the map that is primarily of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland) to articles, and the other user (HighKing) opposes the term completely and utterly, and they've fought battle after battle for months about this issue. They both have tried various parts of dispute resolution in the past, and it hasn't stopped them. The latest war at Misplaced Pages:WQA#TharkunColl shows how intractable the two are in this matter, and the sheer vitriol and argumentum ad nauseum shows that things won't change unless they're made to change. Therefore, I propose the following two remedies:

A) Both TharkunColl and HighKing are placed under 1RR on any article that has to do with the area of the United Kingdom, Northern Ireland and the related geographical area.

B1) In addition to A), HighKing is hereby restricted from removing the term "British Isles" or any such related term from any article. TharkunColl is hereby restructed from ADDING the term "British Isles" or any such related phrase to any article.

B2) Any new account or IP address that starts these battles up can be placed under the restrictions in remedies A and B1.

I think we have a strong case for both.. A) seems to be necessary no matter what, we've gone through edit after edit war, because these two people can NOT agree with each other.. and quite frankly, the reason I am calling for B1, is to be quite even handed, to take away the reason to edit war between the two of them SirFozzie (talk) 12:17, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I sincerely hope we look at this very carefully and act with judgment. Even the diffs raised by User:HighKing against User:TharkunColl at the WQA, viz. European Green Party, Cup and ring mark, Old-time music, Drovers' Road, Derry and and Saint David make it appear that HighKing is using this "dispute" (which I strongly suspect to be near enough artificial) in order to damage articles. In at least 4 of these cases, it seems to me that TharkunColl's use of British Isles was necessary to an understanding of the article topic. Removing "British Isles" in those places appears to be disruptive. PR 12:29, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

(Reply to SirFozzie) HighKing has removed the term from literally dozens and dozens of articles, both under that name and under his previous account, User:Bardcom. I have added it only to about 3 or 4, though have also reverted many of his deletions - especially those that degrade the article in question by removing useful and legitimate information. The area described by the term is not restricted to the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland, but includes the whole of Ireland plus the Isle of Man, and no other term is available in the English language for this. HighKing has repeatedly refused to explain his reasons for removing the term wholesale from Misplaced Pages, though he claims they are non-political. ðarkuncoll 12:27, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes to all IMO. Completely nip the problem in the bud. Viridae 12:42, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Though the final one shouldnt used used to get in the way of consensus. Hence the specification "new" Viridae 12:43, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I should also add that I have attempted discussion and compromise on numerous occasions. See, for example Misplaced Pages talk:British_Isles_Terminology_task_force#A_proposal - and notice HighKings' refusal to even answer. Also note Talk:Alexander Thom for an example of how, when engaged in a discussion on any particular article, no amount of references are good enough for him and he continues to revert regardless. Personally, I think it's unfair that I should be penalised for attempting to put right the damage caused by his single-issue campaign. ðarkuncoll 12:52, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

This ArbCom case has been opened in a very one-sided non-neutral way, and I would like to ask SirFozzie to provide, with diffs, the evidence of his accusations. Stating that HighKing opposes the term completely and utterly is wrong and I vehemently strongly disagree with this assertion. It is a bald lie. I don't, and I'm working at the British Isles terminology taskforce to create guidelines to usage of this term. In addition, I supported the use of the term during a recent edit war over the river Shannon. All of my edits are being reverted and being made the subject of controversy as a tactic. I have not edit warred over the recent articles, remained civil, and followed policy. I find it disconcerting, odd, and also one-sided that the WQA opened, to discuss Tharky's behaviour on reversals and personal attacks, has been let slide - effectively his behaviour is being sanctioned and condoned. If SirFozzie is referring to edit-wars, I believe other editors should also be asked the same questions - namely User:Blue Bugle, User:MidnightBlueMan, User:LemonMonday, and the numerous anon IP addresses - perhaps a checkuser would shed some light on why this has occurred. I'm very happy to be reasonable, but these accusations against me are the result of "marketing" and false claims by other editors, not based on fact. --HighKing (talk) 12:52, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I would also like to add that not only does HK revert addition of the term that TharkunColl has made, and disagree with them, he also removes them from articles TharkunColl is not involved in, and seems determined to remove it from anywhere he sees it on the project. That was the bulk of his editing a few months ago, anyway. He recieved a block specifically for this in July. These proposals seem fair enough. I am pretty sure a checkuser will not find anything amiss as far as TharkunColl himself is concerned. Could it be that more than one editor disagrees with HK?:) Wikiquette board is not the place to discuss sanctions on people's behaviour IMHO, it is an early step in dispute resolution, and as I understand it is just meant to alert the person accused and other editors to a person's behaviour and let them know more formally that it is considered bad form. HK has his own conduct issues such as templating people with warnings if they question his edits. Sticky Parkin 13:12, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I am also feel that neither Tharkuncoll nor Highking have probably used any socks themselves, but I feel that the sheer number of different IP editors who pop up and make highly inflammatory messages on a wide range of articles' talk pages about these issues needs attention. If it were possible, I would like to see a systematic investigation of every anonymous IP editor who has made inflammatory comments to see if they have been used by registered editors hiding behind this screen of anonymity to be disruptive and abusive. I think this kind of blockable behaviour may well have happened on both sides in this dispute, and possibly involving some old well-known sockpuppeteers who have been disruptive in this area before. They are merely inflaming the entire area. However, I realise that this mass checkuser action will never happen, but I think it is important to express a gut feeling I have by stating it here.  DDStretch  (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I would like to draw people's attention to the comments and exchange I have had on this matter here. I believe some of the comments are highly relevant to the issue, but it would be tedious to reproduce them here (because it would also involve reproducing a message from Highking). A large part of the problem is the use of fallacious arguments (on both sides) coupled with a biased interpretation of messages and actions that attempt to allow the real underlying issues that need resolving be ignored in favour of deficits like "fragility" in other people's reactions, or that other editors do not work to high standards of evidence or proof. Both these problems mean that unless both editors can be persuaded to change, or have change enforced upon them, disruption in my opinion is likely to be maintained and grow in intensity and scope.  DDStretch  (talk) 15:17, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I wish the articles to remain stable & I don't want to see Tharky & HK getting blocked over this issues. The 1RR solution? will save them from themselves. GoodDay (talk) 14:23, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Conditional Oppose as it appears Tharky & HK have reached an agreement to halt edits/reversion, while Taskforce is in progress. GoodDay (talk) 21:44, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

• If anyone is in any doubt about how WP:LAME this warring is, have a look at the history of Glowworm from September 30 onwards. I would add User:MidnightBlueMan and User:62.40.36.14 (which I've just blocked again per WP:DUCK) to HighKing and TharkunColl. There are probably a few more as well. Actually, thinking about it, just indefblocking anyone who adds or removes BI repeatedly without a good reason would be a good way of fixing the problem. Black Kite 15:30, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd like that automatic block idea for veteran IP accounts, on this topic. GoodDay (talk) 15:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

There are a lot of IPs about, though. Some, like the mobile phone IP that I've blocked above, are easy to deal with, but others, like the Eircom dynamic addresses from Ireland and the BT Broadband dynamic addresses from the UK, are impossible to deal with permanently as the collateral damage from rangeblocks would be too big. Black Kite 15:45, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Before adding my comments, a couple of more general points - 1) Is this the right place for this proposed action? Reading the guff at the top of the page it seems as though it isn't, but maybe I've misunderstood. Is there a sanction already in place against HighKing and TharkunColl? 2) GoodDay, will you stop banging on about IPs at every opportunity. It just deflects contributors from the point at issue, as has happened here, yet again (see above). Take up your arguments elsewhere. So, regarding the subject of this "enforcement"; It's simple. HighKing is a tireless deletor of British Isles. The reasons he's given for removing it are many and varied. So far as I can see - correct me if I'm wrong - TharkunColl hardly ever inserts the term; just one or two examples recently. I don't insert the term, I only revert HighKing's deletions when he has no justification for the deletion (nearly all of the time). I am quite happy to abide by a sanction preventing the addition and deletion of BI right across the encyclopedia, apart from where there's a clear, agreed error. I'd put money on it that TharkunColl would do likewise, and all other editors would as well; apart from HighKing. He will not agree to any compromise; he reserves the right to delete British Isles wherever, and whenever, he thinks fit, and it seems that no amount of persuasion will change him. Why then, is the "enforcement" directed at HighKing AND TharkunColl? In consideration of British Isles addition and deletion, and not about civility or any other side issue, only HighKing has a case to answer. Other editors are merely reacting to his continuing antagonistic edits. MidnightBlue (Talk) 17:18, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the main sentiment that this is not the place to handle this issue, but I also believe that something must be done sooner rather than later. To that end, perhaps an Arbitration forum is the correct place to have a proper analysis done on edits and conduct. The recent examination and overturning of Sarah777's block gives me hope. MBM's attempt to paint Tharky in the glowing colours of sainthood, complete with halo, is comedic value at it's finest. You get a "You Made Me Laugh" barnstar! (ask me and I'll grant it, I wouldn't want it to be interpreted as a taunt if I just put it on your Talk page) Seriously though, it seems that editors are more concerned with making stuff up than with looking at the truth. How many times today have I seen editors (usually British editors) refer to me a "tireless" and my edits as being wrong - yet if you check my edit history and the articles in question, it shows that my edits are reasonable. In fact, measured against any yardstick you'd care to put up, even by the draft WP:BISLES, my edits are reasonable, as is my conduct (more than reasonable). It appears to me that some editors regard any tampering with the term British Isles as a form of vandalism. And yet, still, no comments on Tharky's behaviour. Or the fact that MidnightBlueMan is continuing to revert articles. --HighKing (talk) 18:34, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

It may interest admins to check back a few months to find the time that - on a previous occasion - the term "British Isles" was removed from a bunch of places that it didn't belong (i.e. it was incorrect) and it was serially reverted by TharkunColl and similar editors. I can't comment on HighKing's edits. I haven't followed them. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 18:08, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you would like to cite some actual evidence. On no occasion have I restored British Isles to an article where it was incorrect. ðarkuncoll 19:04, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Although I have always been loath to make official complants about anyone - I value freedom of speech too much for that - this has now gone too far. I would like to inform HighKing that I've just done precisely that at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard#British_Isles_and_User:HighKing. ðarkuncoll 19:04, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

'Freedom of speech' or getting your own way? --Matt Lewis (talk) 22:06, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Jehochman has reverted the section, stating quite correctly, that a discussion is going on here, and it smacked of forum shopping. SirFozzie (talk) 19:25, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

So I'm not even allowed to complain now, am I? Well this is what I said, anyway: For months and months now, both under the name User:HighKing and User:Bardcom, this editor has been systematically removing the term British Isles from as many articles as possible, and is virtually a single-issue account. Any reversions are greeted with cries of vandalism, plus a large number of spurious and time-consuming official complaints. He says take it to talk, but as this example will show Talk:Alexander Thom no amount of references are good enough for him, and he will continue to revert regardless. And when people tire of discussing it with him, he accuses them of breaking the rules. I have many times tried to engage him in discussion, to suggest compromises, and to enquire after his reasons for this campaign of removal, but on no occasion has he ever acceded to such requests. In my opinion his campaign is a form of serious vandalism, because by removing this information the articles - many dozen at least so far - have been degraded, sometimes ridiculously so. Furthermore, those of us who have been trying to revert him have ourselves been accused of edit warring. Those who revert serial vandals don't usually get this sort of treatment. ðarkuncoll 19:32, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Support 1RR on these editors, and maybe on the dispute over BI in general. I am confused about one thing, User:HighKing is User:Bardcom? If that is true, why are we allowing it? I had no idea I was in a debate with the same editor when I was discussing the Alexander Thom removal of BI by HighKing (who denied having any political motivation). Doug Weller (talk) 19:55, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I changed my username, and I do not have any political motivation. Funny how everyone tries to pin that one on me :-) Would it make you feel better perhaps, if you thought of me as a rabid republican British-hating ginger-haired irish-dancing Louis Walsh lookalike? BTW, I'm still waiting for your response on the Alexander Thom ... --HighKing (talk) 20:05, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

He changed his name after he was blocked by User:William M. Connolley for "vandalism" for removing instances of the term British Isles. Make of that what you will. However we're all allowed to change our name within reason/policy at WP:CHU. Sticky Parkin 19:59, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. Doug Weller (talk) 20:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

So just how would 1RR work then? HK takes out BI, TK puts it back, HK takes it out again - BLOCKED. Or perhaps, MBM inserts BI, HK takes it out, MBM puts it back - BLOCKED. If that's how it's supposed to work - it isn't going to work. Much as I don't like what HK is doing, the scenario I've just described is unfair. MidnightBlue (Talk) 20:05, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

It would be best, that you didn't get involved with a HK/TC edit dispute. It would be seen as though you were taking advantage of one of the editors 1RR restriction. GoodDay (talk) 20:07, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

What we have here is a dispute about a naming convention. I suggest somebody creates a subpage to the relevant page, perhaps Talk:British Isles/Usage and then everybody goes there to discuss when to use this term in Misplaced Pages. To me, an American of East European heritage, I cannot see the reason for all the fuss, but I can understand that this must mean a lot to those who are British or Irish. Rather than playing ping pong with a bunch of articles, why don't we go get a consensus as to how this term should be used? Jehochman 20:13, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

We've got one, British Isles naming dispute & a Taskforce on British Isles usage, in progress. GoodDay (talk) 20:28, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Correct. We've got a task force WP:BISLES which I've signed up as a participant from the start. The draft so far is at BIDRAFT2 and comments are invited at BIDRAFT1. I would readily accept the guidelines and recommendations made by this task force, but I also worry that the taskforce has been bogged down in the past by arguments and stonewalling by a few editors, and I am concerned that the intention of some editors would be to ensure that the task force never finished... --HighKing (talk) 20:52, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

At risk of stating the obvious: there is no reason to change British Isles usage in existing articles until such time as the task force completes its work. Why make temporary changes that won't stick, and will only encourage edit warring? If anybody is stonewalling the discussion, please report them at the appropriate venue and somebody will deal with it. What would be good is if everyone here agreed not to take provocative actions, such as changing Great Britain and Ireland to British Isles, or vice versa. If some other editor unknowingly steps on that land mine, I think anybody can revert them, and point them to the taskforce discussion. Does that sound like a plan? Jehochman 21:11, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm happy to agree voluntarily not to add the term to an existing article, if HK agrees not to remove it from any existing article. ðarkuncoll 21:16, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm happy to wait until the taskforce completes it's work and I also voluntarily agree not to edit any article that results in the removal of the term British Isles. --HighKing (talk) 21:22, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Well now, that's what I like to read. If you both feel ya's don't need to be restricted (1RR), I may just remove my support for it (the 1RR). GoodDay (talk) 21:24, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Ya see guys, If HK paved half my road green & Tharky paved the other half blue? It'll be great, 'cause my entire road is paved. GoodDay (talk) 21:41, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

e/c - I'm not sure if this is resolving itself, but I'm going to add it as I've written it, and I wan't to defent HighKing regarding Wikialerts etc:

I'm going to offer my experience of each editor and make a couple of points on the background of this. I think all this is borne out of frustrations elsewhere.

A few months back now, HighKing, when he was Bardcom, went through articles that used British Isles and removed many cases of the term - some of which did go too far, and others were, in my opinion (and the opinion of other users 'pro' the term, such as User:CarterBar) - a genuine service to Misplaced Pages: the term was indeed over-used in a number of people's opinions. Unfortunately, HK didn't initially 'get' the strong reaction against him making his changes on such an 'ordered' level, no-doubt as he saw himself as doing a simple service. He was far too defensive about his actions for a while, objecting too strongly to people's protestations. When a user called Crispness started to 'back up' his edits on the revert table, things got complicated, and a few people started thinking in terms of a taskforce. Around this time HighKing stepped back, and has supported the ensuing BI taskforce (WP:BITASK) 100%. The taskforce is currently at a lull, and I'm sure the recent edit flurries are frustration with this. It seems that HighKing is testing the drafted guideline out (I think he has a right to at least try this), but Tharkuncoll sees the entire guideline as 'censoring' his notion of free speech.

In my interaction with Tharkuncoll, he seems to want to use the term whenever he sees fit, and have no form of guideline at all. It is very frustrating to argue with him as he used terms like 'censorship' and 'freedom', which I personally find a cynical convenience, and very weakly argued on the occasions he does argue it. IMO, we simple need some sensible guidelines, and Misplaced Pages is full of these: it is not an total anarchy where people can do what they want.

In my eyes HighKing has (thus-far) been the strongest contributor to the proposed WP:BITASK guidelines as they stand (excluding myself, as I broadly structured the proposal we currently have). DDStretch contributed significantly to begin with, and around 5 others have contributed to some degree. It has to be said Thurkuncoll 'backed out' of the taskforce before contributing at all, and steadfastly refuses to do so. But HightKing has been the most consistent and enthusiastic of the contributors - he has been continually positive, and has contributed a number of textual additions. Tharkuncoll has made no contibution at all, and has completely blanked various questions to him surrounding details of the guideline on perhaps a dozen occasions now - he is not easy to deal with at all, as he simply ignores what he doesn't want to address.

Tarkuncoll says that he has only inserted the term completely afresh on a few occasions, but his clearly calculated insertion of it at the River Shannon (the major Irish river) was a significant act for everyone involved - and was the straw that broke the camel’s back, and even Tharkuncoll signed up for the subsequent BITASK taskforce. As another BI-inserting act, he then immediately released an 'Islands of the British Isles' Template as his self-designated 'first act' of the taskforce, making it awkward for us from the very outset. So regarding Tharkuncoll's propensity to use the term, my argument is that if HighKing edits in a way that removes the term, and Thurkuncoll replaces it without actually improving HK's change in any way - then that IS an act of adding the term. I would add to this that HighKing is editing according the drafted proposed guidelines at the taskforce, while Tharkuncoll is typically doing as he sees fit.

So for me it's not a case of 'six of one and half a dozen of the other'. Tharkuncoll is very much 'pro' the term, and wishes to see it on Misplaced Pages to a far greater extent than HighKing wished to remove it. HighKing is trying to follow some rules, Tharkuncoll has shown (me at a least) a number of times that he simply doesn't care who he upsets, and will play the 'freedom' card to justify himself like the most cynical of right-wing tub-thumpers IMO - John Lennon he is not. On the whole I am for using the term (and class myself as a 'British' editor), but extremism on both sides simply makes life impossible. In my eyes Tharkuncoll is one of the extremists, HighKing isn't.

I think a real problem here is that people are loathe to get involved simply because Tharkcuncoll alone is so hard to deal with. He has a real-life friend called StickyParkin who often appears as an apologist for him, but he stands by himeself as far as I'm concerned.

Another reason I feel that so few people are getting directly involved in some of these recent burst of edits (apart from general worrying about edit wars), is that people could be generally waiting to see what happens at WP:BITASK. Some people want a BI guideline that uses only 'Ireland' (and not 'Republic of Ireland') for the Irish state. This 'Ireland' issue is the why the BITASK guideline is at a current lull. An Irish disambiguation taskforce (WP:IDTF) was consequently made to try and find a conclusion over Ireleand disambiguation, which had a flurry of interest at the time across all the main Irish spaces. Unfortunately WP:IDTF is at a lull now too, as some users want Brown Haired Girl to chair the difficult opening debate, and she isn't answering her email and seems to have switched Misplaced Pages off at present. So it is extremely frustrating times for all of us who believe in these taskforces and guidelines. --Matt Lewis (talk) 22:06, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I would like to endorse this summary by Matt Lewis. It seems quite accurate in the estimation of the relevant degrees of willingness on the part of HighKing and TharkunColl to engage with the community on the British Isles Taskforce. I still think there are problems in both of their actions, and in some, but not all, of the actions of their supporters. I particularly want to say that in my experience StickyParkin has not demonstrated any problem behaviour in these areas.  DDStretch  (talk) 22:23, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks dd.:) The erudite subject areas that these people edit I find very impressive as it's a subject about which I'm quite ignorant.:) I should probably disclose that my interest in any of these debates is those of a slightly common English person who can find sources with google news, who also happens to consider myself an IRL friend of User:TharkunColl. He has never notified me of any of these debates- you know how nosy I am on matters of the wiki and I usually notice them before TharkunColl does himself.:) I think you're wrong about HK though. He had this crusade on the BI front, which other editors have noticed, before he ever came across TharkunColl's edits. TharkunColl has been here well over my three years and has made many prior, different edits. TharkunColl (and this is just my personal interpretation and not anything he's said to me) finds HK's edits irritating but he was not the initiator of this BI insertion/extraction feud- he just finds HK's edits bizarre and irritating and sees the obvious POV and wants to do something about it. Sticky Parkin 22:37, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, HighKing has contributed (or at least he did when I was involved in it) to the British Isles taskforce, whereas TharkunColl ignored it, and spoken against restricting him in any way on the matter. However, I do feel both have their problems, as I stated. Some of the links I gave above show some of the problems I think are present in HighKing's actions (including some that have occurred after I posted the link to User talk:Snowded.) The problem in all of this is that both assert that they are working within the rules of[REDACTED] (I know, there are matters concerning edit-warring that cause us pause for thought on these claims, but let us accept that they are working within the rules for the sole purpose of the point I am making here.) What it is important to realise is that a rigid adherence to rules may not be possible, because the rules are messy, may be inconsistent in places on close examination, and some rules and guidelines have a precedence over others, such as the requirement to realise that we are trying to work in a collaborative, helpful, and friendly environment. In this case, although one is perfectly entitled to, say, remove a term from an article if it is not referenced, and if it is not patent nonsense, it is by far better to ask about it and discuss it on the talk page, or tag it, instead of mere removal which can cause unnecessary drama: by talking about it, the reasons can be given full exposure and all parties have the potential for learning in a way that mere and abrupt removal doesn't easily allow. Also, even if one's messages are responses to prior sub-optimal behaviour on the part of another, one is still obliged, unless it is patent vandalism, to not act so as to inflame further the matter: in other words, saying something along the lines of "they did it first" may explain the reasons for one's reactions, but it doesn't excuse one's actions. To sum this up: we need editors to show consideration and a willingness to consider the effects their actions have on other established editors, and not to behave in what I, a UK citizen, would call a "jobsworth" rigid adhering way to specific rules.

That is why I think both sides need to be brought to a realisation that the current state of affairs cannot be allowed to continue, and that both sides should make real and positive steps to examine their own behaviour, carefully listening to what others say, rather than counter-attacking anyone who raises possible problems in their actions, or ignoring them, or accepting restrictions through gritted teeth (I'm not saying all or any of these have happened). Even a small move in this direction may well help even if all of it is not possible.  DDStretch  (talk) 22:56, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

It's interesting how the fact that we are friends in real life seems to be such an unusual situation amongst Wikipedians as to actually be worth commenting on. ðarkuncoll 22:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Err, I never noticed (giggle). Anyways, the adding/removing British Isles on Misplaced Pages? begs the question. Is it being added/removed for the benefit of innocent & less knowledgeable editors? or the benefit of all editors who adde/remove it. GoodDay (talk) 22:43, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Lol goody:) Yes T, people tend to get banned as socks or meats, there have been socks who pretend to be friends, but I've heard the joke (no offence other wikipedians, just joking) that wikipedians are suspicious/jealous of real world friends because they don't have any.:) Sticky Parkin 22:45, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Hehe yes. Perhaps we should write an article explaining what they are. ðarkuncoll 22:49, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I usually see my friends down the pub, who's going to buy me a drink on the computer! ;) Jack forbes (talk) 23:01, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

We're both skint and lazy though lol:) Anyway, on with the 1RR show...:) Sticky Parkin 23:11, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Now that Tharky & HK have agreed to work things out at the Taskforce (while not adding/removing BI on related articles). Can this AE report be put on hold? GoodDay (talk) 23:05, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I would fully endorse Matt's analysis here and support a 1RR on both editors. HighKing does appear to be attempting to follow some form of guidelines while TharkunColl is a strong advocate for the BI term. So while I don;t think its a 50-50 issue we need some form of action as this has been going on too long. Looking above we have conditional statements not undertakings which would itself justify some action. --Snowded TALK 23:04, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I endorse Matt's analysis, but conditionally oppose 1RR (see above). GoodDay (talk) 23:13, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Its gone on too long, all three solutions proposed by SirFozzie make sense. If the editors have reached agreement then they will not be affected by it. There are two many conditions especially the "If does X then I will do Y" which is mealy mouthed. --Snowded TALK 23:20, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm gonna wait and see (what HK & TC do). I still have a little faith in them, yet. GoodDay (talk) 23:25, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Good to see. As long as neither side continues this disruptive war, I'd be willing to consider suspending any discussion for remedies.. I do warn both users that the community's patience is rapidly running out with the BI wars. You have your chance. Make the best of it. SirFozzie (talk) 23:46, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

It's up to you guys (Tharky & HK); don't disappoint us (the community). GoodDay (talk) 23:52, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it should be emphasized that it is not just the two main editors (HighKing and TharkunColl) who need to take care, but also the people who have been indulging in similar behaviour on similar articles as well. This includes anonymous IP editors as well as registered editors, some of whom appear to have been registered for only a short period of time, but who seem behave as if they have an immediate and wide-ranging knowledge of wikipedia's policies, and who should therefore know better. But I wish everyone success in modifying their behaviour for the better.  DDStretch  (talk) 08:37, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm very glad it has now been resolved amicably on all sides. ðarkuncoll 09:53, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

A bit late perhaps, but I generally support the summary by MattLewis. I didn't realise that HighKing was Bardcom but indeed, this has been going on a long time. If anyone wants to see TharkunColl's typical approach, the recent attack at the main British Isles article is eye-opening. The page is still blocked as a result. HighKing/Bardcom's approach seems to be to remove "British Isles" references where it's inaccurate (e.g. the Storm of 1703), not necessary or appropriate, or just not unambiguously true. On at least some occasions his edits have perhaps been a little biased. A sin, but hardly a mortal sin. TharkunColl, on the other hand, is a determined troublemaker on many articles. He'd edit the article on The Netherlands to describe it as a country east of the British Isles. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 10:11, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

BTW - here's a classic TharkunColl edit on the British Isles talk page. I believe that saying that a country is uncivilized might qualify as a little bit uncivil. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 00:28, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Now, that is exactly one of the problems that has plagued this whole area. However, I'm not agreeing with this comment by 79.155.245.81, but criticizing it. Tharkuncoll does not say that a country is "uncivilized", because that is a biased interpretation of what he wrote. He did write: 'I think the only thing I can be bothered to take issue with is your characterisation of Irish society as a "civilisation". ' The wording he uses makes your interpretation unlikely in my opinion, as he uses the phrase and form of words 'a "civilization"'. Instead I think the more likely interpretation is that he was saying that he disagrees with the idea of an "Irish civilization" in the sense of a culture and society associated with the Irish which is distinctive and notable enough to be called a civilization on its own merit, separate from other related cultures and societies: go and read it again. So, there are interpretations other than the one you have given, and I believe that there is a more likely interpretation that does not approach being uncivil in the way you are attemptimng to pin on him here. It is not an act of good faith to take the most uncharitable interpretation to describe and interpret what he said in a biased way. This kind of inflammatory interpretation needs to be countered strongly in thjis area. I imagine that some would think a formal warning would be in order for you for making such a potentially inflammatory interpretation.  DDStretch  (talk) 07:11, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

That's very tempting. I agree, Tharkuncoll is not saying anything is uncivilized. 'Civilization' is very different from 'civilized' and I am sure Tharkuncoll knows that. Doug Weller (talk) 07:59, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

(reduce indent) Perhaps you're right. However, that's how I read it. As I've said before, I have long ago stopped assuming good faith with TharkunColl. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 08:05, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'd suggest people start re-assuming good faith. This is just a chance to let all parties show they CAN edit under WP's rules, not ollie ollie oxen free. SirFozzie (talk) 08:09, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

WP's main rule is verifiability. As soon as TharkunColl starts backing up his opinions with references I'll be delighted to start to assume good faith with him again. Meantime I have seen plenty of reasons not to. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 08:32, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

You've only been around a month. On those grounds, you might have said the same thing about Bardcom/HighKing if you'd looked at their edits as closely as you seem to have looked at TharkunColl. Tharky can be a right pain, don't get me wrong - I've had real disputes with him before. HighKing/Bardcom is much more civil (although agressive at times), but they aren't that different in what they are doing. Which is a political argument, no matter how much either one of them claims it isn't. Doug Weller (talk) 09:54, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Can't let that slide. Let me be very clear. I AM NOT EDITING POLITICALLY, OR WITH A POLITICAL MOTIVATION. Don't go around making that accusation again. I've always made it clear that I'm interested in accuracy. Your attributing of motivation to my actions, especially trying to politicize them, is not fair, not accurate, and most importantly, not true. My edit history will also bear that out. Which reminds me - I'm waiting for a response on the Alexander Thom article from you, as the references you have provided do not appear to stand up to scrutiny. I've been patiently waiting for nearly a week. --HighKing (talk) 11:07, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

It is my experience that a lot of people aren't aware that they are acting politically (with a small 'p' please note, not a thinking that if someone is focussing on something like this "to make it accurate" they must have a reason other than accuracy to do so many edits). I think my references stand up enough to show 'interest', by the way but I also don't think anyone will convince you. And an interest in accuracy should have meant that you took enough time in removing 'British Isles' to make sure that the deletion didn't leave obviously ungrammatical sentences. That was some time ago and I'm not suggesting you are still doing that, but I remember a number of examples. Doug Weller (talk) 11:25, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

It is more my experience that a lot of people are unwilling to accept that one can edit articles for accuracy in a non-political way. It is also more my experience that people continue to believe in an easy lie rather than do some hard work to uncover reality. Whatever. --HighKing (talk) 12:29, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

IMO, there should be no problem with pipelinking: . That the link stays intact with the British Isles article & while presenting the growing usage of Britain and Ireland. Nice compromise, eh? GoodDay (talk) 12:33, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Can someone roll this up? --Matt Lewis (talk) 14:21, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Proposal: Before doing that (rolling up the debate), it might be worthwhile to remind people that a lot of the problems are maintained by a continuing misuse of the relevant talk pages. For example the history and current state of Talk:British Isles is full of soapboarding, political comment, attacks and derogatory comments about both sides, and much other stuff that is not supposed to be on talk pages. I recommend that admins and established editors take time to review WP:TALK and be quite stringent in dealing with comments posted on the relevant talk pages that are nothing to do with the specific task of how to improve the relevant article. WP:TALK states that it is a "behavioral guideline. It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense and the occasional exception." The amount and extent of disruption suggests to me that the time has come to be much more stringent in not allowing so many exceptions. There are specific warnings for misuse of talk page (see the uw-chat templates) as well as the personal attack templates. I suggest that they get used more if appropriate when misuse of talk pages on relevant articles to this dispute are detected. Additionally, I suggest that common sense suggests to us that, given the antics of some editors in this area in the past, editors should be warned about gaming the system to issue warnings messages to "get back at" editors with whom they are in disagreement over content.  DDStretch  (talk) 08:53, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Would it be possible to move those questionable discussions at talk: British Isles, to talk: British Isles naming dispute (assuming the latter article would be more appropiate for such discussions)? GoodDay (talk) 14:12, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

For some of them it might be. But for most of them, the content is so laden with personal comments, anger and invective, and other inadmissable comments for a tak page, we might as well merely delete them. But for the fact that some of them are "stale" in the sense that they were made a day or so ago, I think it would be appropriate to warn the authors of the messages. But it is probably best to start afresh now, and I have modified one of the notice template messages at the top of the article into a stronger warning one, with warning that comments not abiding to WP:TALK may now be removed and the editors may, in certain cases, be formally warned. It may still be an idea to archive the discussions that are inadmissable, which might well remove almost all of that talk page in one go. I suggest similar action is taken on related pages where such inadmissable messages have occurred that are inflaming the entire topic.  DDStretch  (talk) 14:25, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

In agreement, as there's alot of mud-slinging on those British/Irish related talk-pages. GoodDay (talk) 14:33, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Also in agreement. Actually, I've been calling for stricter policing on comments for some time now... --HighKing (talk) 16:22, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

1RR breach on UDR article

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The Thunderer has breached 1RR again after his block for a previous breach ended here and here. BigDunc 21:01, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

This reallydoesn't look good against the accusation of "system gaming" now does it?--Tznkai (talk) 21:02, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Being handled down below. Cut this out, Dunc. SirFozzie (talk) 21:03, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

•  Note: archiving request. This is evidently being handled. Anthøny (talk) 14:41, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Xasha on Moldovan/Romanian linguistic and historical issues

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Resolved – I have blocked Xasha for 48 hours for disruptively editing and banned him indefinitely from the Eastern Europe topic area.Anthøny (talk) 15:18, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Xasha is the subject of a topic ban. He continues (recent examples):

• Moldavian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic: ,

• Bălţi: ,

• History of Moldova: , ,

Moreover, the user follows editors on unrelated, technical topics, and performs edits with apparently the only aim to do an edit against a certain editor, e.g. Administrative divisions of Moldova (, , ) Note for example that he cancels other work by introducing incorrect wikification of older links, e.g. changing Bender (Tighina) back to Tighina (Bender), which he perhaps does not even notice that he does (it is very easy to press "undo"; it is much more time consuming to verify all the implications)

In the latest edit, plesae note that the user, not only changes the text, but also does one extra thing: tacitly removes the sources that contradict it. Cummulatively, in time, such behavior has serious effect: by pushing away users that dislike confronting editing, the article is stripped of sources and might look to an outsider as a content dispute when both parties fail to provide sourses, or provide only 1-2 doubious ones.

Please, remember that the topic ban does not exceed the area of history and linguistics of Moldova and Romania, and that the user is free to post in the talk pages of the articles related to history and linguistics, or to place comments related to history and linguistics in any talk space.Dc76\ 20:59, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

For my reply, including real motivation for the above request and claims regarding articles not relevant to the topic ban (i.e. 3 of the above linked articles), see Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Xasha.Xasha (talk) 21:47, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I appologize for posting here while the issue was rased also in the Noticeboard by other people. But I did not know that, I do not follow the contribs of the editors that edit the same articles as me... The issue is however standing, and I believe the proper place to discuss it is here. I want to be also more specific, that while in some articles Xasha has edits that do not fall in the area of the topic ban, they are done together with those on the edit ban, in one edit everytime. If Xasha would make those separately, I wouldn't mention them. I have no way to link to diff and point out which 10 of the 20 red things are outside the topic ban. One has to read throught the whole diff. It falls upon the editor who has a topic ban imposed upon himself to perform edits in a more visible manner (normally, you would expect him not to do baned topic edits at all, but at least do them separately from the rest). Dc76\ 22:21, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

As for the continued accusations of following other editors' edits, I would like to remind Dc76 that Misplaced Pages has a facility called Watchlist and an option in preferences that adds every page you edit in your Watchlist. And I would like to see someone reading his name in an edit summary on ANI or AE (on the Watchlist) waiting for an invitation from the complainant to reply.Xasha (talk) 22:42, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Nobody has accused you of following anything, please be more careful at what's being said before accusing other people of bad faith (yes, even in edit summaries, unfounded accusations poison the conversation). --Gutza 22:53, 14 October 2008 (UTC) My bad, hadn't noticed that twist. Of course, striking my message simply means I'm refraining from commenting. --Gutza 08:47, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

It is one thing to use the Watchlist to check what has been done in the last month, or to scroll through and undo obvious vandalisms (content disputes are not obvious vandalisms), and it is a totally different thing all of a sudden to get interested in articles like Bălţi and Administrative divisions of Moldova which I editted yesterday and today. Did you contribute to these articles in the past (other than repairing possibly a comma, which I do not remember, but in principle I do not exclude)? Look, Xasha, don't get ideas, I am not trying to debate you here on the content. All I am saying is that you are editting in a militant manner, and BTW on the topics you are banned. Dc76\ 23:35, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Every article has a history of contributions, so you can check there my previous contributions to the articles you mention, that date from months ago. Also I'm not banned on those topics, I'm banned on topics about historical interaction between Romania and Moldova, which isn't the case on the article you mention (you can see that I didn't edit the section about the Romanian administration over Balti, but totally unrelated paragraphs; as for Administrative divisions of Moldova, it has nothing to do with Romania). You should better enhance the quality of your contributions than accuse me of "militant editting"(sic!).Xasha (talk) 09:35, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

In September 2008 the User Xasha hurt again his topic ban hurt (see this discussion), but the administrators were very generous with him and he was not punished (though it was not the first time he hurt his topic ban). Xasha also showed no signs of remorse and he refused to revert his disputed and forbidden edit. He only wrote that "You can't change the past. What is done is done." Now seeing that he carried forward his behavior (especially regarding his topic ban), my conclusion about this user is clear: Xasha is incorrigible. From this reason I request a full ban for Xasha. Regards, --Olahus (talk) 21:01, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps the reason the administrators were linient to him was that they might do smth stronger and want to have a case without doubt. Maybe it's the acalmy before the storm. When someone has crossed the line and you decided its time to show him a lesson, you let him do some more bad things for a while unanswered, you know he is getting it, now you let him do more, so he can even later understand that he really asked for it. Frankly speaking (until 2 weeks ago, I wasn't here for 4 months), from what I see now, he is only on the first breach "on my being around". But of course I wasn't here. And I don't want to read that, I'd rather bury the present hatchet, not dig more. The only solution is to present evidence to the sysops. After some amount of it one of the two will happen: Xasha will stop or sysops will take action. Dc76\ 03:53, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Response. I have blocked Xasha for 48 hours for disruptively editing and banned him indefinitely from the Eastern Europe topic area. This seems to resolve most issues raise herein. Anthøny (talk) 15:18, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.