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This news just in

Stormfront have enabled mandatory registration in order to view the forum after a massive traffic overload after Obama was elected. I don't have an account, so I don't know what's going on there, but I think it's very, very bad. Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 07:21, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, any coverage in the media/blogosphere? the skomorokh 20:27, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't on the news. I don't think it experienced more traffic after Obama's win. If it did I'd think Don Imus would want it. I've seen it after Obama's election. They seem to be arguing he's successful because he's "part white" YVNP (talk) 20:41, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Straws; clutching at... what a hoot! So the above is entirely unsourced? -- Ļıßζېấשּׂ~ۘ Ώƒ ﻚĢęخ (talk) 04:45, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, see this:

"One of the most popular white supremacist Web sites got more than 2,000 new members the day after the election, compared with 91 new members on Election Day, according to an AP count. The site, stormfront.org, was temporarily off-line Nov. 5 because of the overwhelming amount of activity it received after Election Day. On Saturday, one Stormfront poster, identified as Dalderian Germanicus, of North Las Vegas, said, 'I want the SOB laid out in a box to see how 'messiahs' come to rest. God has abandoned us, this country is doomed.'"

So though I'm not sure about the registration thing, activity did apparently jump after the election. --V2Blast (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I checked the site and it's open again. If someone wants to add the material from the Yahoo news page that'd be appropriate. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:21, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

And it's closed again. It's apparently intermittent. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:31, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Nice work chaps, I've added it to the History section. Regards, the skomorokh 13:55, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

'The new Ku Klux Klan'?

Interesting stuff, this. -- Nevard 00:28, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Interesting stuff indeed, but I have to ask in light of this fatherly advice:

...are machine translations from Repubblica reliable enough for our purposes?! the skomorokh 13:49, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely not. I'm not even going to try and parse that by hand. Could be worth having someone who can read it fluently look over it. -- Nevard 14:01, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, there's another machine translation here. I'm having a go at finding someone who could provide some decent insight. -- Nevard 11:49, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

And I've asked an editor fluent in the language to do a translation. "I asked them if Stormfront is not just another new Ku Klux Klan, a Klan of the 21st Century without pointed hoods and Arian symbols. "Yes, it is just like that", was the instant response. Along with Don Black, his son Dereck (age 19) is seated, who is the organizer of the radio (program) on the Internet of Stormfront. From the beginning of our encounter he listened quietely, but now interrupts his father: "You have not never said it, you can not say that". He gestured and tried to stop his father's speaking with his hand: " You know that you can't say it". The father remained immovable: " I never said that an American journalist, but you know that it is true"." Nevard (talk) 06:45, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm quite uncomfortable with including this in the article given the current state of play; your translation does not make grammatical sense in English as far as I can make out, and a misplaced conjunction could radically alter the meaning of the passage. From an encyclopaedian point of view, I would love to write that Black envisages Stormfront as the new KKK, but we can't trust this source for such an outrageous claim - what if the media picked it up from Misplaced Pages and it turned out to be a misunderstanding? Egg on our faces. I had a brief look around the Stormfront forums but I couldn't find anything dealing with this report specifically, although this comment casts serious doubt as to the journalistic reliability of the article we have just included. the skomorokh 15:26, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, I didn't ask for perfection- just wanted to check that I wasn't reading the article wrong. I think it is reasonable to believe I am not reading the article wrong, and that Dereck Black was not interrupting his father to stop him expanding on the subject of how Stormfront could not be thought of as the new KKK, and Don Black was not pointing out that he had sometimes failed to explain his pluralist view on life to the American media.

Obviously, we're not going to be mining that source for a 'typical Stormfront quote' in the lede any time soon. Nevard (talk) 15:38, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

On second thoughts, our translation seems plausible; it sounds like something Black would say and I am reasonably sure we are not mischaracterising anyone. Skomorokh 13:40, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks... I did have my own doubts about it, but it seems fine after a bit of consideration. Nevard (talk) 14:13, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

"Neo-Nazi" again

This article has been added to the category Category:Neo-Nazi websites. As the only identification of Stormfront as "Neo-Nazi" is Bill O'Reilly, who is not a neutral and reliable source of information, this category does not belong in the article in its current state. Per WP:BURDEN, I'll remove it tomorrow if this state persists. Skomorokh 20:47, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

I think we should include the category, based on the arguments on OrangeMarlin's talk page. Thanks, SqueakBox 21:19, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

There are many sources that have called the website "neo-nazi". Among others are the Village Voice., The Jewish Journal, and the district government of Dusseldorf. I'm sure there are plenty more. Further, they have a history of posting nazi-related graphics in sysop-controlled pages. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:41, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

The Register article refers to Stormfront.com, a different website. I'm not familiar with the other two publications; are they reliable sources? For a designation of such weight, it would be much better to have more than a passing mention (see white supremacy discussion and footnote). Appreciate the research, Skomorokh 02:59, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

The Register article is a great example of their incompetence. German sources do, indeed, describe Stormfront.org as a Nazi/Neo-Nazi website that the Dusseldorf government has banned. Nevard (talk) 05:12, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I wonder what the folks at http://www.stormfront.com/ think about their namesake. That must lead to some confusion. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:20, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Nothing any more... Nevard (talk) 14:12, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

• A SICK Nazi website has unleashed a tirade of hate at Irish Olympic boxing hero Darren Sutherland. The 26-year-old bronze medallist, whose dad is from the Caribbean, has been labelled a "mongrel" and "half-breed" by brainless racists on the Stormfront website.
  • "Darren's targeted by nazis" Danny Conlon. News of the World. London (UK): Aug 24, 2008. pg. 7
    • We're looking for neutral coverage of a controversial topic concerning living people; tabloid sensationalism won't cut it. Skomorokh 12:36, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
• In recent months Black has toned down the Web site, banning many symbols of Nazism that formerly were common on the site, including swastikas, lightning bolts and the number 88. The letter H is the eighth letter of the alphabet, and among supremacists 88 stands for "Heil, Hitler." He also eliminated the N-word, Potok notes. According to Kreis of Aryan Nations, Black has not explained why he did so, "but he has ticked off a lot of people" in white power circles. Potok says he believes the changes are purely cosmetic. "This is not a change of philosophy on Black's part," Potok said. "This is a public relations move to make the Web site seem less drastic, to try and draw more people in right now during the presidential campaign. His beliefs are still fundamentally neo-Nazi. If you listen to the content, you'll hear it."
  • "LOCAL ORGANIZER, OTHER SUPREMACISTS SAY OBAMA'S RUN BOOSTS THEIR CAUSE" JOHN LANTIGUA. Palm Beach Post. West Palm Beach, Fla.: Jul 27, 2008. pg. A.1
    • The Neo-Nazi identification here seems to be "Potok"'s opinion rather than the reporting of the Palm Beach Post; any reason this Potok individual should be considered an RS? Skomorokh 12:36, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
• Mr. Warman continued to scour the Internet for Canadian hatemongers, finding many at a U.S. neo-Nazi site called Stormfront, whose web forum has a Canadian section. "It's almost like moths to a flame," he says. "They can't avoid it."
  • "One man's war on Internet hate; He calls himself more 'Aryan' than the hatemongers he chases, but Ottawa lawyer Richard Warman has become the bete noire of Canada's neo-Nazis, writes Don Butler.;" Don Butler. The Ottawa Citizen. Ottawa, Ont.: Jul 11, 2007. pg. A.1
    • Seems legit but fleeting. Skomorokh 12:36, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
• Held for bail hearing. Ile Perrot man visited neo-Nazi websites, posted photos with guns...At other websites, Emard posted photos of himself posing with weapons and making a salute used by the Nazis in Germany before and during the Second World War. He is believed to have posted comments at www.stormfront.org more than 300 times since October 2005.
  • "Threats suspect fond of hate sites:; " PAUL CHERRY and MICHELLE LALONDE. The Gazette. Montreal, Que.: Oct 7, 2006. pg. A.9
    • Doesn't seem to specifically identify Stormfront as N-N. Skomorokh 12:36, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
• Text of report by Belgrade-based B-92 TV on 22 February
• A list of Jews living in Serbia has appeared on a US Nazi site, in its forum in Serbian.
• Participants in the forum on the stormfront.org site say only a dead Jew is a good Jew.
  • "List of Jews living in Serbia appears on US Nazi site" BBC Monitoring European. London: Feb 23, 2005. pg. 1
    • Is B-92 reliable? BBC seems legit but fleeting again. Skomorokh 12:36, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

These are just a few of the sources I've found in Proquest. There are numerous reliable sources that label this a "nazi" or "neo-nazi" site. While we certainly should be cautious in using such a label, it appears well-justified in this case. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:44, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I've no doubt that we could rack up an impressive list of RS' that mention Stormfront in passing as "Neo-Nazi"; but that is precisely the sort of superficial analysis that has plagued the attempt at serious, in-depth coverage of this topic. I have not found one that attempted to justify the label or even discuss why it is being used. Ascribing ideologies to internet fora is a dubious notion to begin with – to tar the heterogeneous beliefs and attitudes of all the Stormfront users as Neo-Nazi seems doomed to inaccuracy to begin with, akin to categorising the Misplaced Pages article as "Amateur enecylopaedias". I'd like to try to put a section on Stormfront's reputed white supremacy and Neo-Nazism in the article, but so far we have no serious analysis of the appropriety of attributing these beliefs. By using throwaway adjectives instead of detailed analysis, we run the risk of endorsing mainstream POV rather than NPOV. Skomorokh 12:36, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

This group and "neo-nazi" appear to fit like hand and glove. Here's an article on their own site calling them so ] here's a report from a left-wing group calling them so ] here's a thread on a high traffic right-wing blog where they're called neo-nazi (redacted link to the freepers because of some spam filter) here's an article from the Canberra Times calling stormfront neo-nazi (via a blog, but the full text of the news article is there ] here's an article where the group defends itself from everybody elses opinion that they're neo-nazis ] and on and on. Also, isn't the founder a former grand kookle/pooh bah/whatever of the KKK? If some sort of weird, twisted radical skepticism (this is not in fact a hand i see before me) can be used to deny labelling this group neo-nazi, might as well do away with the term altogether.Bali ultimate (talk) 16:33, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Your first link is a forum post - I don't think anyone is denying that some members of Stormfront are (self-identified) Neo-Nazis; the claim is that the webiste itself is Neo-Nazi. Left-wing groups and right-wing bloggers are not the sort of reliable sources we are looking for. The Canberra Times ref is the sort of fleeting mention discussed above, I think Black is a former member of the KKK but that is not substantiated here nor does it speak directly to the Neo-Nazism of Stormfront, and the last article is a good example of why we ought to be careful here. Radical skepticism is an inadequate description, because there are standards of evidence that are acceptable for the verification of claims; detailed in WP:V. Exceptional claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community require a high level of sourcing. I'd settle for a collection of fleeting mentions (as in the white supremacy footnote), but quality scholarly analysis would be far more preferable. Thanks for weighing in, Skomorokh 16:44, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Skomorokh, you've gone through and described some of these refs as fleeting, but they're short because I only excerpted a few lines. I think there is sufficient evidence to use this label. Do you know of any evidence to the contrary, to show that anyone connected to Stormfront denies it being a neo-nazi forum? Black himself has been connected with neo-nazi groups, so I doubt he'd deny it. If there's plenty of evidence that it is, and no one saying that it isn't then we don't need to argue at length. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:06, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Absence of evidence to the negative is no indication of evidence to the positive; your attitude seems to be one of "well, there's some indication that it is, and no indication it's not, so on balance it's fine to say it is". That simply does not fly for a highly controversial label for a highly marginalized group. I am not contesting the inclusion of the category now that (admittedly flimsy) references have been added, I simply feel that it is not informative to our readers, because all we can say about the issue is "Stormfront is a Neo-Nazi website" rather than provide a paragraph that goes into proper analysis of Stormfront's relation to Neo-Nazism. Without context, "Neo-Nazi website" serves only as a term of abuse rather than an informative appellation. Did any of the reliable sources you've come across go into any detail on the Neo-Nazi claim? Skomorokh 18:16, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Your argument would only be meaningful if those making the claim were themselves fringe sources. In other words, if only fringe left-wingers considered Stormfront to be a Neo-Nazi website, then it could just be that nobody takes the claim seriously enough to refute it. But that's obviously not the case here - mainstream, respected sources refer to them that way. You are simply choosing to ignore them because you don't like them. --B (talk) 18:28, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not ignoring anything; please assume good faith. I don't think left-wing watchdog groups, Jewish-interest newspapers and tabloids are acceptable neutral reliable sources for the claim that Stormfront is a Neo-Nazi website; I am also concerned at the lack of any detailed analysis or justification in the reliable sources (such as the academic paper and the Ottawa Citizen and Daily Telegraph articles) provided. I don't care if Stormfront is neo-Nazi, neo-cannibal or neo-angelic, I care that the Misplaced Pages article about it is comprehensive, neutral and accurate, and I don't think the cavalier attitude shown in this discussion is a step towards the that goal. Skomorokh 18:56, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Skomorokh, you seem to be moving the goalpost. Certainly Bill Reilly isn't a reliable source for anything more than his own opinion. But mainstream newspapers, the SPLC, the ADL, etc, can all be regarded as reliable sources for this article. And yes, even passing mentions of the site as being "neo-nazi" are acceptable. There is nothing remarkable about calling this site "neo-nazi" - the founder has a neo-nazi history, they have hosted neo-nazi content and imagery, the members espouse neo-nazi concepts and use nazi-like avatars and usernames, etc. No one disputes that it is a neo-nazi website. We have sources from many countries and three continents. Continuing to argue this point eventually becomes tendentious. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:52, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Which goalposts are being moved? While mainstream newspapers are usually reliable (not having an agenda), SPLC/ADL etc. are certainly not neutral and should not be used to support statement of fact. Neither am I objecting to the number of sources, and the list below does little to further the improvement of the article. I have not disupted that the category ought to apply, only that it ought not in the absence of reliable sources (and I have not removed the category since a referenced claim was added). What is acceptable per conventions (as in the white supremacist/first hate site issue) is a convincing collection of non-partisan reliable sources such as scholarly studies and non-partisan newspapers which we can add as reflecting mainstream consensus on this issue. What is more desirable is proper coverage of the issue in such sources to do the topic justice. At present, we now have three abusive labels ("white supremacist", "hate site" and "Neo-Nazi") rejected by the subject(s) of the article which are not investigated or explained in any way. Reading the article it is not at all clear from the facts that Stormfront is primarily hateful, Nazi or supremacist. By namecalling without support we are effectively making the reader's minds up for them. That is a derisory attitude for an encyclopaedia to adopt. I'm trying to build this article into something that will meet WP:FA?, and the vast majority of input from other editors (with notable exceptions) is to war over particular puerile identifications. Skomorokh 20:08, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

What source do we have for Stormfront "rejecting" the neo-nazi label? If the article doesn't include material on their neo-nazi elements then we need to improve the article. If it passed GA without that information then it may be time for a review, because it would be incomplete. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:26, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Bali ultimate pointed it out above:. I'm not suggesting that this is a reliable source by WP standards, but it does indicate the problems with using fleeting identifications. I strongly agree that the article needs more content on Stormfront's Neo-Nazism, though I don't think the absence of such is enough to merit a GAR as I've yet to be convinced by the sources that it's a major aspect of the topic. Skomorokh 20:34, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

We have 18 sources that directly call this a neo nazi website, yet you don't think that's a major aspect of the topic? You reject numerous reliable sources because an admittedly unreliable source makes a passing, unattributed assertion that users reject the label? Let me quote you from July: "yup, one person writes a book is good enough unless someone else writes something contradicting them". We don't have a single proper source for anyone actually connected to the site rejecting the label. I see you've removed the category at least five times. Given the ample sourcing, I expect that it won't be removed again. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:58, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

You're misrepresenting my position completely. In each instance of removing that category it was explicitly for the reason that it was not supported by reliable sources in the article. I consider The Guardian, The Ottawa Citizen, The Daily Telegraph and the Zhou et al article sufficient support for the inclusion of the Neo-Nazi attribution according to Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, just as I considered the book you mention acceptable for the claim it supports (though note that that claim was not a value-free labelling, and that the book in question is a far more credible source than random newspaper articles). I also consider adding labels liberally without explanation or justification poor scholarship—specifically when the subject rejects the label (cf. "white supremacist")—and Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines deficient in this respect. Large numbers of sources referring to Stormfront as Neo-Nazi no more makes Neo-Nazism a major aspect of the topic than large numbers of sources referring to Mother Teresa as female mean that identification is worthy of major discussion in the article. Frankly, I am quite tired of defending this article against every passing editor with a personal axe to grind, and spending most of this talkpage discussing pov-wording rather than the improvement of the article. Skomorokh 21:17, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

This article will require "defending" as long as it's here. That's been the case from the beginning. Some years back the crew at Stormfront tried to organize to "correct the errors" in Misplaced Pages, which led Jimbo Wales to say that we'd change whatever rules were necessary to keep them from taking over. So there's a long history here. Anyway, is this matter settled now or is there still any dispute over this categorization? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:11, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

No, there hasn't been a dispute over the categorisation since the referenced claim was initially added. I'd like to replace some of the sources cited with those I mentioned above, but what with the threat of permanent banning and all I'll refrain for now. If you have come across discussion of the Neo-Nazism in one of the definitely reliable sources, it would be great to include it. If you have the time and inclination, input would be appreciated in the sections below this one. Thanks for your patience, Skomorokh 22:16, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad that's settled. I still don't understand how this article got to GA status while excluding such a prominent part of the subject's notability. Omitting it meant that the article failed item #3a on the Good Article criteria. Perhaps the sources should be doubled-checked to make sure that all significant points of view are included, as required by WP:NPOV. I'll check back in a month to see if we've been able to satisfy that item. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:48, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Peanut4 (talk · contribs) was the reviewer; you may want to take it up with them. All the content I added was taken with minimal alteration/interpretation from the references—in most cases it was a case of trying to pick morsels of mentions of Stormfront out of articles on broader topics rather than picking and choosing which perspectives to take from each source. I obviously have not come across much discussing Neo-Nazism, and there do not seem to be any other editors heavily active in editing the article at present, so I'm not sure whether waiting a month will achieve anything. If you're convinced 3a is an issue, then I would say the best thing to do would be to put it up for WP:GAR now. It might be worth bearing in mind this related discussion regarding what ought to be covered vs. what can. Regards, Skomorokh 23:55, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

If the editors who prepared this for GA didn't come across the eighteen sources isted below, and thus didn't find much discussion of the neo-nazi characterizations of the subject, then there seems to be a failure to do proper research. I'm not in a hurry to do a GA review, and it'd be better to address the identified problem and thus avoid it entirely. Let's see how it looks in a month. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:12, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Well Will, it seems as if you're the only one here with access to the below sources, so I'm not sure what help I can be. If there's something freely accessible online you think ought to be included, drop me a link and I'll try to integrate it. Skomorokh 00:20, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

The books are all available on Google books. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:26, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

. Medicine Bags and Dog Tags doesn't contain anything I'd include here; no previews of Citizen Cyborg or White Reign are available; the mentions in Space of Hate, Mel Gibson's Passion and Bad Moon Rising are the epitome of fleeting; Interactive Technologies and the Social Studies calls Stormfront "pro-white, Nazi-oriented", and Friends calls it "white racist, lunatic fringe pro-Nazi Internet … website movement" - neither with any analysis whatseover; War and the Media contains an interesting discussion on pages 181-187, but surprise surprise nothing on Neo-Nazism. Colour me extremely unimpressed—how on earth are we supposed to treat this as a major aspect of the topic when none of the sources thus far do? Skomorokh 00:48, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

• be-yamenu, Universiṭat Tel-Aviv Proyeḳṭ le-ḥeḳer ha-anṭishemiyut, Universiṭat Tel-Aviv Faḳulṭah le-madaʻe ha-ruaḥ, B'nai B'rith, B'nai B'rith Anti-defamation League, Universiṭat Tel-Aviv, Makhon le-ḥeḳer ha-anṭishemiyut ṿeha-gazʻanut ʻa. sh. Sṭefan Roṭ, Wiener Library, and World Jewish Congress. Anti-semitism Worldwide. ress.
• Brean, Joseph. 2008. RCMP will not pursue charges in CHRC case; Human rights body accused of hacking into Web account. National Post, November 21.
• Butler, Don. 2007. Ottawa lawyer vs. Calgary 'Nazi'; The Canadian Human Right Tribunal has handed Richard Warman his 10th victory in his tireless crusade to put a stop to the spread of hate over the Internet, Don Butler writes. The Ottawa Citizen, October 27.
• Carroll, Al. 2008. Medicine Bags and Dog Tags.
• CLARKE, JIM, and DARREN BOYLE. 2008. IRELAND 'S ROLL OF SHAME IN BILE.COM. Sunday Mirror, September 14.
• DIANE Publishing Company. 1996. False Patriots.
• Flint, Colin. 2004. Spaces of Hate.
• Garber, Zev. 2006. Mel Gibson's Passion.
• Gorenfeld, John, and Barry W. Lynn. 2008. Bad Moon Rising.
• Hughes, James H. 2004. Citizen Cyborg.
• Kincheloe, Joe L. 2000. White Reign.
• LuisaTucker, Maria. 2007. A NEO-NAZI FIELD TRIP TO THE MET. The Village Voice 52, no. 24 (June 13): 23.
• Martorella, Peter H. 1997. Interactive Technologies and the Social Studies.
• McLachlin PalmBeachPostStaffWriter, Mary. 1998a. INTERNET SURFERS HIJACKED TO WEST PALM HATE SITE. Palm Beach Post, December 21.
• ---. 1998b. INTERNET SURFERS HIJACKED TO WEST PALM HATE SITE. Palm Beach Post, December 21.
• Millar, Stuart. 2000. Leeds don to attack Lawrence findings. The Guardian, March 2.
• MIMS THESALTLAKETRIBUNE, BOB. 1998. More than 200 Internet sites qualify as `hard-core racist'. The Salt Lake Tribune, October 18.
• O'Hara, Michael. 2006. Friends.
• RADLER, MELISSA. 2004. Hate sites flood Internet - report. Jerusalem Post, April 20.
• Thussu, Daya Kishan, and Des Freedman. 2003. War and the Media.

Here is a list of eighteen newspapers and books that refer to Stormfront as a nazi or neo-nazi site. The burden of evidence has been met. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:52, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

• A relevant ANI discussion is here. Verbal chat

Skomorokh, the reason you are unable to find any reliable sources going into a detailed, scholarly analysis of whether Stormfront is a neo-Nazi website is precisely the same reason that neither you, I, nor anyone else can find a reliable source on the subject of motor racing going into a detailed analysis of whether Mario Andretti knows how to drive a stick shift. When you ask every other editor here to assume good faith, what you're really asking for is a suspension of judgment. You're clearly employing a rhetorical technique that I call pretending to be stupider than you actually are. Everyone here, including you, is bright enough to realize that Stormfront is a neo-Nazi website, as are the multiple, reliable sources who can recognize a garden implement when they see it without wasting their resources on an idiotic, useless, detailed scholarly analysis. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 22:27, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

support continued description as neo-nazi

• support as nom (and to wrap this up). Like skok says above, there is an abundance of reliable sources that describe this group as neo-nazi. On top of that, they fit the description to a tee, engage in activities and speech typical of neo-nazis etc...
  • This is a talkpage, not an election booth ;) I think we are quite aways from "an abundance of reliable sources that describe this group as neo-nazi", and the notion that "they fit the description to a tee, engage in activities and speech typical of neo-nazis etc..." is personal opinion, but I would agree that it is likely that an acceptably referenced attribution of the label will be forthcoming soon. Regards, Skomorokh 16:46, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

] ]] I spent 3 minutes on these latest cites.Bali ultimate (talk) 16:58, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Do you really think Jewish Defence and the ADL are neutral sources here? Skomorokh 17:06, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

A better question - does ANYONE on planet Earth (other than white supremacists, neo-Nazis, whatever) NOT consider the website to be a neo-Nazi site? --B (talk) 17:00, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I can not find a single source saying they're not neo-nazi. I can find multiple reliable sources calling them neo-nazi. Furthermore, their founder is a neo-nazi, they have/do carry neo-nazi screeds, symbols, manifestos. They consort with neo-nazis. Many of their contributors self-identify as neo-nazi... scholars call them neo-nazis (as per the scholarly link that you removed from the article). etc... I suggest you desist from this course.Bali ultimate (talk) 17:11, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Of course we cannot prove a negative, the burden of proof is on the "Stormfront is a Neo-Nazi website" claim and not on the contrary, per WP:NPOV. I don't think B removed any scholarly links to the article. What course are you suggesting they desist from? Skomorokh

He is obviously referring to you, not to me. The burden of proof that Stormfront is a Neo-Nazi site has overwhelmingly been met. --B (talk) 18:13, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I am new to this discussion and got here via conversations left at a couple of editors talk pages. Anyways, I've taken the time to read through everything and without any doubt in my mind Stormfront is a Neo-Nazi website. So if this is a strawpoll count me in as supporting that this article state it as such. I'm sorry but how anyone can say it's not is surprising since I looked at the refs provided. I have to say I'm surprised that this is even being discussed. --CrohnieGal 20:26, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

• Support continued description as neo-Nazi due to the overwhelming abundance of reliable sources.

A: You can't prove a negative.

B: Really? I am not a giraffe, and I can prove it.

--Steven J. Anderson (talk) 22:31, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

• Support per WP:V. Jayjg 01:22, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Google Books URLs

On a minor note, is it a good idea to include Google Books links in the url fields of the citation templates? My understanding was that we only added URLs when a full version of the text was available. Not sure of the usability value or the copyright implications. Skomorokh 13:43, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Screenshot

Can someone who knows how these things are done capture a screenshot of the site for infobox purposes? Something like File:4chan front page.png would be great. Skomorokh 15:37, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Removed per POV

I removed this because it is very POV. I am still reading things here but it's being heavily edited by User:Skomorokh which is making it difficult to do. Personally I think s/he should slow down a little and at least bring some of these changes to the talk page for discussion since s/he seems to think the article should be one way and most others disagree, but of course that is just my opinion. Please feel free to revert me if you disagree. --CrohnieGal 21:14, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that the Washington Post is insufficiently neutral? The wording I added is almost exactly that of the source, and gives the reader context on why the Stormfront members were concerned with Obama's candicacy. Could you please explain your concern? Skomorokh 21:20, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Eli Saslow of WaPo: "Posters on Stormfront complain that Obama represents the end of "white rule" and the beginning of "multiculturalism." They fear that he will promote affirmative action, support illegal immigration and help render whites, who make up two-thirds of the U.S. population, "the new minority."" The text I added: " … feared that Obama would promote affirmative action, support illegal immigration and help render white people a minority in the United States." I'm afraid I don't see where the POV is supposed to have crept in. Skomorokh 21:24, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

It seems like cherry picking to me, sorry. --CrohnieGal 21:35, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

How do you propose we put the claim that Stormfront members were concerned with Obama's candidacy in context? Why is listing the reasons for their concern not the best way of doing this? Skomorokh 21:38, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Skomorokh, I think it's more likely that Crohnie thinks that not the Wahington Post, but you, are insufficiently neutral and cannot be relied upon to fairly characterize the contents of the article. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 22:35, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure the editor can speak for herself. I won't deign to respond to your contemptible comments on my editorial integrity. Skomorokh 00:32, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok on this one I will back off and state I am wrong. I apparently missed this or didn't digest it propery when I read it since I was reading a lot of different refs trying to catch up with things here. I would also point out that there are other comments made in this article that has this site using the Obama election win for other reasons to push their agenda other than the ones you are stating which is one of the reasons I felt that what you put in was POV and cherry picking. Here is what they said in one section; "One person put it this way: Obama for president paves the way for David Duke as president," said Duke, who ran for president in 1988, received less than 1 percent of the vote and has since spent much of his time in Europe. "This is finally going to make whites begin to realize it's a necessity to stick up for their own heritage, and that's going to make them turn to people like me. We're the next logical step." " Also I would like to point out this quote "The groups also despise Republican Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) for his moderate views on immigration and his willingness to stick with the Iraq war. Better for Obama to win, leaders said, because his presidency could fuel a recruitment drive big enough to launch events that the white power movement has spent decades anticipating." (Bolding and italics mine)

Now the bolding is, at least to me as important or more important to them then just the comments you selected, which I might add could be incorporated in what you want to put into the article. Anyways, I hope this explains better what I find in the article to be important comments by this group compared to what you chose. By no means are mine more important than yours, I am just trying to show that the article shows more than the selection you chose to present. I hope I am clear in what I am stating. If you look at my user page you will see that my medical causes me some problems here that I try to over come as best as I can but it still gets in my way unfortunately, sorry if this is a problem to anyone. Thanks again for listening. --CrohnieGal 12:09, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

The problem with the bolded comments you have selected is that the journalist does not present them as representative of Stormfront. The first is a quote from David Duke, who if he is a Stormfront member is only one of tens of thousands, and we have no way of knowing (per WP:V) the extent to which his views are shared by Stormfront at large. Similarly, the second bolded comment is attributed by the journalist to "Neo-Nazi and white power groups", of which Stormfront is presumably only one component. This gives us the reverse problem that the Duke quote does – we cannot know the extent to which the aggregate concerns of all the groups follow those of Stormfront members; is Stromfront more or less radical/afraid/prejudicial than "Neo-Nazi and white power groups"? No way of knowing without engaging in WP:OR. The selection I chose to excerpt (my method is simply to search for the word "Stormfront" and take information from the sentences in which the word appears):

Posters on Stormfront complain that Obama represents the end of "white rule" and the beginning of "multiculturalism." They fear that he will promote affirmative action, support illegal immigration and help render whites, who make up two-thirds of the U.S. population, "the new minority."

There is no ambiguity here, no potential for misrepresentation; this is what our reliable source definitively says of "Posters on Stormfront" entire – not one poster, not all American Neo-Nazi and white power groups, but Stormfront posters. I'm still not clear on which POV I am supposed to be pursuing. Skomorokh 12:42, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

The box on the top

I just notice this . I don't remember having an editor listed like this in the box at the top unless they are involved in the article like a COI type of situation. But would someone explain to me why the box says that this editor knows the article well enough to be the one to ask questions to? Usually I see these types of questions asked on the talk page so that any editor may speak up, not having one editor listed. It looks like WP:OWN with it written like this. Thanks in advance for any replies. --CrohnieGal 21:33, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you read the documentation of {{Maintained}} and its talkpage. The template means that the editors listed are actively monitoring the article and are familiar with the sources used, thus being good people to ask questions of i.e. "are we sure that Stormfront began in 1995 and not 1991?". It does not grant the editors any authority, nor do you need their permission to alter the article in any way. Hope this helps, Skomorokh 21:37, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you read the documentation of {{Maintained}} and its talkpage, particularly this part:

• DO NOT place this template on the talk pages of controversial articles that are easily subject to POV wars.

Template removed per this very clear guidance. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 22:43, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

1. Zhou, Y (2008). "U.S. Domestic Extremist Groups on the Web: Link and Content Analysis" (PDF). University of Arizona. Retrieved 2008-12-27. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

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