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Categorise this subject

Can anyone help. I don't know how to categorise this subject. I know how to categorise a person, but not an historical incident.

Thanks Lisa Irwin 22:47, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I gave you a few, please check and ensure they are correct. --ArmadilloFromHell 23:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Article name

I would like to know who invented the title "Dunmanway Massacre". This phrase, on an examination of the facts, is not the case. Only three of the victims mentioned in the article were killed in Dunmanway - the remainder lived several miles away. - JohnM

What name do you suggest the article should be called?--Vintagekits 10:56, 15 April 2007 (UT

The article should be titled in a more accurate way i.e. Cork, West Cork. The present title plays into the hands of those who claim that there are so many inaccuracies in Misplaced Pages as to render it useless as a tool of reference.

JohnM

> > > > I write with reference to the following article > http://en.wikipedia.org/Dunmanway_Massacre. This title is > misleading and even slanderous and there is a factual error in it. > The title gives the impression that the murders were committed in > Dunmanway. If you read the article you will find that of the 13 > victims (not 10 as mentioned), three were killed in the town of > Dunmanway > > > > David Gray Dunmanway > > Francis Fitzmaurice Dunmanway > > James Buttimer Dunmanway > > > > The remainder > > > > Thomas Hornibrook Bandon 27 kms > > Samuel Hornibrook Bandon ditto > > Samuel Woods Bandon ditto > > Robert Howe Ballaghamine 12 kms > > John Cheminey Ballaghamine ditto > > Alexander McKinley Ballineen 11 kms > > John Buttimer Caher 8 kms > > Robert Harbord Caher ditto > > Robert Nagle Clonakilty 20 kms > > John Bradford Killowen 21 kms > > > > I believe the article should be entitled something like The > Protestant Massacre or West Cork Massacre. The present title is > erroneous and gives credence to the people who preach that Misplaced Pages > is not a dependable source of information. Incidentally I have > attempted to edit the entry but it is always changed. It is the same > with the article http://en.wikipedia.org/Dunmanway, where the > name of the murdered priest was not Father Magnier but Canon Magner > (go into the cemetery in front of St Patrick's Church and his tomb is > hallways along on the left hand side.

> > > > Yours sincerely > > > > > > John Murphy > > Le Vinaigre > > 24560 Bouniagues > > France > >

There is nothing slanderous in this article, perhaps you could explain who you believe is being slandered?

I assume you are referring to this edit. The name in the lead has to reflect the name of the article, therefore it stays as "Dunmanway Massacre" unless the page name is changed as well. Your attempt to introduce an unsourced claim of 13 victims was correctly reverted, according to the article the victims were:

1. David Gray
2. Francis Fitzmaurice
3. James Buttimer
4. Robert Howe
5. John Chinnery
6. Alexander McKinley
7. Robert Harbord
8. John Buttimer
9. Jim Greenfield
10. John Bradfield

Robert Nagle is not named as being killed merely shot, so that equals 10 not the figure of 13 you attempted to introduce into the article. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 08:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Where are the Hornibrooks and Woods "Capt Woods, Thomas Hornibrook and his son Samuel went missing, unaccounted for, and in time presumed killed" If these killings took place in the same week (see article) why are they not included?

See this article from The New Statesmen, which gives the figure of ten and the name "Dunmanway massacre". Ten is the confirmed number, although we can include the information about the others it's only speculation, for all we know they could have (as the Wolfe Tones would put it) "like lightning ran from the rifles of the IRA". One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 08:45, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Although I read The New Statesman each week, I am afraid that i give it as much credence in some of its articles of as I do to The Daily Mail, when writing about Tony Blair. Witness to apology to the lastest John Pilger article. My objection to the article on the Dunmanway massacres is not that Protestants were murdered but that it happened in the Dunmanway area. This, in my opinion, is geographically inaccurate. Incidentally an article in The Sunday Independent last summer (google it) focussed on the Bandon murders. JM

The lead makes it quite clear that it happened in the general area, not in Dunmanway itself. The article is not geographically inaccurate, as it uses a sourced term for the name in a similar way to the Hungerford massacre article. Perhaps this should be changed to "Massacre in and around Dunmanway" and that should be changed "Massacre in and around Hungerford"? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 07:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I changed the number back to ten, per the sourse. --Domer48_'fenian' 19:52, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

"nope, 3 in Hornibrook's home and 11 next day" and yet the article says "Meda Ryan has concluded that this was 'exaggerated' and that, 'definite records are not available to confirm their deaths'." So were is the new sourse for this information? The source says 10, and that missing does not equal dead, so unless its supported with a reference I'll change it back to the referenced version? --Domer48_'fenian' 20:00, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

First of all, lets acknowledge that Ryan is not exactly a neutral source. And anyway she was referring to the size of the IRA party, not what happened to the Hornibrooks. But leaving that aside, I was simply counting the nuber of dead reported in the article. 3 in Hornibrook's home and 11 next day. I think it is a little disingenuos to say that the 3 in Hornibrooks house were not killed. They were abducted by armed men and never seen again. The fact that they were disappeared in this way is a pretty good indication that they were killed. I could live with a a figure of 10-14 however, if this is noted in the article.

For the record, this source says 13 http://www.dcu.ie/~foxs/irhist/April%201922%20-%2026-28%20-%20dunmanway_massacre.htm. The extra one seeds to be Robert Nagle, who was shot but not confired killedJdorney (talk) 13:44, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Jdorney your right, lets stick to what we know. Tim Pat Coogan says 10. I've added the additional reference plus text and updated the Meda Ryan References. I removed some unsoursed text, and if I find a reference will add it back. --Domer48_'fenian' 14:09, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes and we know, the 3 in Hornibrook's home went missing presumed killed, never to be seen again and the text should acknowledge that.Jdorney (talk) 15:57, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Jdorney the text does acknowledge that; "Some days later Capt Woods, Thomas Hornibrook and his son Samuel went missing, and in time were presumed killed. The Morning Post newspaper reported that, 'about 100' IRA men surrounded the house and smashed in the door', but historian Meda Ryan has concluded that this was 'exaggerated' and that, 'definite records are not available to confirm their deaths'. Hornibrooke's house was burned some time after the incident." Now I placed a tag beside the names, because we need to know who the ten are according to Ryan and Coogan. 3 were killed in Dunmanway and 7 outside the area according to Ryan. I'll have a go later at referencing this. Thanks, --Domer48_'fenian' 16:06, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Domer, first of all, there's no reason at all to label the DCU source dubious.

Secondly, while ten others were shot in around Dunmanway, don't you think its reasonable to assume that the two Hornibrookes and Woods were abducted and killed?

There are in fact several sources which report that their house and besieged and they were shot and then "disappeared". In the DCU chronology page which gives as sources Peter Hart, (The IRA and its Enemies) and Dorothy Macardle (The Irish Republic (book), this version is reported. For this reason I can't see the objection to stating that some sources report 13 as opposed to ten killed.

All that Meda Ryan (in what is a self confessedly pro-republican book) says is that she couldn't find documents to absolutely confirm that this had happened. Have you read this book? If not, find it and read the relevant passage.While this book (Tom Barry - IRA Freedom Fighter) has good detail, it is not necessarily to be preferred to the rest of the sources. Jdorney (talk) 22:12, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Clarity on 'spying'

I think we need to get the order of events right. The men killed were not spies in April 1922 but some might have been up to July 1921.

1. The IRA were ordered by Southern Command HQ to kill any spies up to noon on 11 July when the Truce came into effect.

2. Thereafter any spies were to be detained and tried. None were, as the British were leaving.

2. Subsequently during the Truce the IRA found evidence that some of the men killed had been hostile to them before July 1921 (as happens in wars).

3. The Treaty was ratified by Jan 1922 (for good or bad). While the R.I.C. were being disbanded in 1922, the IRA were the de facto police force.

4. The raid and killings centered on the Hornibrooks / Dunmanway happened in April 1922, when none of them could still have been spying.

5. Once the matter was over, the IRA justified their actions by calling the men spies.

6. Given the tensions and run-up to the Civil war, nobody was ever charged.

Any better suggestions before I tidy up? I have a source that Daniel Corkery ended up living in the Hornibrooks' house - so perhaps it wasn't burned.Red Hurley 16:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Auxiliaries' intelligence documents

Does anyone know where these are today? I can't find a reference or a chain of possession from 1922. If they don't exist, then quoting from them may have been a convenient form of coverup.Red Hurley 15:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Dispute at List of events named massacres

A minor edit war is taking place as to whether to include this event in the above list article. I have temporarily removed the listing, due to the fact that the list requires multiple reliable sources and the adding editor only provided one. Discussion of this removal (and of the entry in general) should take place at: Talk:List of events named massacres#Disputed Entry - Dunmanway Massacre. Blueboar (talk) 14:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The editor trying to add it is also a sockpuppet of a banned editor, and the info being added is incorrect. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 14:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

"Central part"?

"The killings at Dunmanway led historian Peter Hart to conclude that sectarian conflict between Catholics and Protestants was a central part of Ireland's war of independence - his findings have been challenged and contradicted by Meda Ryan (2003), Brian Murphy (2006), and John Borgonovo (2007)."

Hart argues (as I read him) that sectarianism was an element; can someone cleverer than me quote where he said it was a "central part" in the war? Otherwise I'll adjust that at some point.86.42.192.24 (talk) 12:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

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