Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:27, 6 January 2006

RGulerdem: Bias Article

This article need to be reviewed, eddited and put into a form that is acceptable by everyone. It is an article which has a strong bias against Gulen between the lines. Almost all sentences are problematic. I suggest to replace my version, I added recently, and work on it till a concensus.

Best,

ON DELETING THE TURKISH LINKS: I think they should stay, there is no rule all the links should be in ENglish, and for a reseracher it gives a starting point for etting the know what the critics think: the critics don tave too many web pages in English

RESPONSE AND BEGAN EDITING: I dont see why "Cumhuriyet" is not a reliable source. Certainly it has a secularist bias, but it is not suprising that it is a secularist newspaper that challanges Gulen. About Hulki Cevizoglu, your argument doesnt make sense; "what does "every knower knows" mean? Besides, Hulki Cevizolu is hardly the only respected journalist to accuse him. About Veren, are you denying that he was the right hand man of Gulen and is it surprising that he is denounced once he breaks away from the group.

2) Im planning to rewrite the article, my plan is to add the actual events and then provide the views of supporters and adverseries of Gulen on the event. think we can really get a good article out of this, so I would appreciate if you could help me with the Gulen's supporters views of the events. Here are the events that I plan to add

a) his anticomunist activities before 1980

b) the rise of the movement through educational activities

c) Gulen's political connections

d) the tape incident and the ensuing legal battle, gulen's move to the US

e) the nurettin veren controversies

All the events above are facts, and as I said, i think we might put the two sides of the story for each.

I also started editing the existing page. Im taking out highly subjeective comments, like he "surpassed his peers at an early age", he inspired generations of students, his efforts were warmly welcomed by almost all walks of life, he is hailed as an innovator, he is admired by leading politicians etc. These comments dont belong to an encyclopedia. But I kept the factual events that these comments were based on.

I removed the part that said he shied away from politics; he had highly publicized one-to one meetings with two former prime ministers while they were in office, Bulent Ecevit and Tansu Ciller, this can easily be verified.

Some objective editor should check and verify that these removals are intended to make the article impartial and are not vandalisms. Im particularly willing to retract my mention of him going thorugh fits of emotion and crying during the sermons; I was amazed to see his intensity and certainly think his uniqiue way of preaching is worthy of note, but I can see his supporters finding it offensive to mention.

About my recent additions, they are mostly verifable public information, from newspapers, if anybody of them seem controversial I am happy to quote the sources. I tried to differtiate opinions from facts, you can bring up the points where I failed to do it and we can correct.

Ok, so much for now, ill continue later..

=

Hello,

I challenge you to prove any of the occusements you mentioned hereunder! Giving writings of the newspaper "Cumhuriyet" is certainly not objective, since that newspaper is totally against any religion, wether it is islam or christianity! As for the thing about Nurettin Veren .. I suggest you to read the interview given to the newspaper Milliyet: http://en.fgulen.com/a.page/press/interview/interview.with.mehmet.gundem.of.milliyet.daily/c277p1.html

About Cevizoglu. I can only say that this person wrote a lot of untrue things in his books. Every knower knows that. I hope that one day you will also be able to make a difference between trues and lies.

=

Response: Let me once again point out other respected journalists, such as Hulki Cevizoglu, has mentioned having received death threats, as well as the main media outlets broadcasting Fethullah Gulen's "hate preaches". Because of these tapes Gulen has been in the United States for the last 5 years. Gulen has denounced these tapes as being montages, and while I cant check the authenticty of the claim from here, the claim seems unlikely. In fact, recently, Gulen's former right hand man, Nurettin Veren has come out open on the group's secret dealings with the US government and conservative parties in Turkey. Veren has claimed he has been osrtacized from the sect for his alleged role in giving Gulen's preaching tapes to the media outlets. About the sources of debate: UNfortunately, as i mentioned earlier, it is hard to reach relable sources on this subject. One problem is well panned and executed PR efforts by the GUlen group. For example, Gulen's followers are notorious for undertaking mass mailing to any media outlet if any negative comment on GUlen is published. The interested reader who has acces to TUrkish media can verify this by checking TUrkish newspapers for negative comments against GUlen; within a day or two, the columnist more often than not write an article about the overwhelming response they get from readers with concerted positive views about Gulen. THe websites quoated below belong to Gulen's supporters, and upon first read the reader can immidiately tell they are not objective but rather promotion efforts. Gulen's main adverseries are groups with secular roots in Turkey, including the army. As Turkish republic was founded by the army, it has taken the unusual role of guarding country's republic and secularism. While this role is highly debated, and the army has been less eager to push the politicians, it remains staunchly opposed to Gulen. It is interesting that while there are numerous islamic groups in Turkey, the army has singularly focused on the GUlen group as a threat. This is due to the almost totalitarian nature of the organization and its concious efforts to infiltate into state by placing its followers into important positions. In particular, Gulen group is very strong in the bureacuracy of Interior Ministry and the Education ministry . As a response, the army asks a number of officers to leave its ranks for alleged connections to the organization. On the secular side, it is mostly groups tat are on the left and with insistence on the secular nature of the state that challange Gulen Group. Particularly, the daily "Cunhuriyet" has various exposes on the matter. The mainstream media seems to take shifting position on the subject. This is a reflection of the fact that the media is owned by groups which are financially dependent on state contracts. As the fortunes of the Islamic parties rose in the early 90s, the media represented Gulen as his own websites do; a tolerant "Islamic pope". He was embraced by center right parties who were feeling the pressure from far right, on this note, former Prime Minister Tansu Ciller, who had a one-to one meeting with GUlen, has to be mentioned. Interestingly, recently Nurettin Veren declared that GUlen was not sure whether to hold the meeting until the last minute, as he wanted to avoid touching a woman's hand, an act he considered religiously forbidden. THe mainstream media's position changed in 1996, when the military indirectly forced the prime minister to resign on the charges of eroding the republic's secular regime. It is at this time Gulen's tapes surfaced, which shocked the people who had accostomed to see hi preaching tolerence. In the tapes, he preaches a fanatical verion of Islam, lamenting the secular turkish republic and its founders, and promising an islamic state after a concerted effort to capture the organs of the state. While many documents and testimonials to the same effect had surfaced before, it had not reached to the general public before. Soon after Gulen left for the US. Gulen claims this was due to health reasons, while his critics point tp the legal problems he faced with exlicit denounciations of the republic. Recently the tide has been turning again. In 2002 elections "Ak parti" largely a contiunation of the former Islamic "Reah Partisi" won a landslide victory, and several of Gulen's followers are now in the cabinet. While skepticism in the mainstream media remains, Gulen has found more space to express himself. OK, so much for now. I hope this is not deleted. And we want to go towards an article, i hope people comment on the specific events on the timeline, rather than sweeping remarks and quotations from Gulen's websites. Thanks..

=

Time to clean up

Hello all,

First I would like to mention that I, also, am quite new to the[REDACTED] encyclopedia. I would like to apologize for my unknowing actions I made before this.

I would like to mention that a real small, marginal, group thinks the same way as the 'negative' person hereunder does so. I know that it's hard to be objective about all things and beings, and being 100% objective about persons belonging to a certain religion is impossible ... The person hereunder has presented old claims that turned to be untrue and are proved so a few years ago... I wonder why he still mentions them without being bored himself.

Fethullah Gulen is a well-respected scholar, not only in Islamic environments, but all over the world. Several interviews were held with him this year and published in prominent newspapers like, for instance, Sabah and Milliyet (both aren't religious at all). A very prominent journalist Mehmet Ali Birand(also a presentator on CNN-Turk) has written a very objective, recent column about Fethullah Gulen under the title: Why does Fetullah Gülen Scare Us? (http://www.fethullahgulen.org/a.page/press/columns/2005/a1911.html?PHPSESSID=7a91956966715568d98b38db6e383d81).

Yes, in Turkey there are still a few persons who try to blacken every islamic scholar by making an elephant of a fly and by making up lies about them. Fethullah Gulen is someone who hates terror and also says so. This is known world wide. He has nothing to do with violance but somehow after 30/40 years there are still people who don't believe this. How much time do they need more, I wonder!

I hope that[REDACTED] will quard his objectiveness by giving value to real facts, instead of lies and accusements.

Thank you very much.

NOTICE: On the website it states that Fethullah Gulen has been born in 1941. This is true according to the birthrecord. But, in reality, he was born in 1938. At that time it was quite normal that birth-dates weren't administrated on time in places like Erzurum and other cities and villages in the east of Turkey. I advice you to use the year 1941, like it is stated on the official web site of Fethullah Gulen.

what a mess!

I was planning to clean this article up, but it's too big a job for this hour of the morning. Half the article is "he's our saviour", the other half "WHAT A FRAUD DON'T LISTEN TO THAT GUY HE'S BEEN BRAINWASHED".

"Brainwash" guy, you're almost certainly right, the original author(s) have taken the kool-aid for certs. But vandalising the damn page is not the way to go about fixing the article. How about, instead of writing dodgy graffiti all over the thing and complaining that it's not NPOV, you go in and write the article properly.

I might have a go at fixing the article properly in a couple days, if I a) get around to it, and b) find a trustworthy source. Already I've been stymied by a quick Google: this page agrees with the article that he was born in November 1938, but Gülen himself claims to have been born April 27 1941. When was this man born???? And that's the least of the troubles! --MarkGallagher 19:06, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

=

ANSWER: First of all, im new to[REDACTED] and thats why i didnt go about fixing it. And i wasnt the one to put the NPOV sign. For my part, i was content with putting my comments on the discussion secition and i did. And lastly, you yourself are vandalizing it by deleting my comments, and so i paste them once more. As for the comment that the article is a mess, I agree. As, for your efforts, I am not sure an editor who is untrained about turkish politics/religous life can separate fact from fiction. This is all the more true as the subject of the debate has an ardent following and has invested heavily in promoting his ideas and image. As for my part, I will be content that his controversial side is represented in the article and provide a starting point for those interested in inquiring more into the subject.

Very Controversial Figure: Fethullah Gulen and his activities are very controversial in his native country, much like scientology is in the US. The article, obviously written by a supporter of his, represents the image actively promoted by his group, which is one of the best organized Islamic groups in the world. The most dangerous strategy of this group is that it is not organized in mosques or private foundations only, but among students; therefore, it has its own network of schools, dorms, rented or owned apartments. In particular, the group recruits bright students at an early age, supports them financially, and mobilizes their support once they graduate from select schools around the world. Students stay in dorms or apartments governed by the people of Gulen's group and learn about teachings of Said-i Nursi (an Islamic figure of first half of 20th century) and Fethullah Gulen. The bright students are recruited by intriguing offers such as free private lessons, help on getting into a good university, free food etc. After making sure that these kids or youngsters are followers of Gulens ideology, they work to get even more students around them. This Islamic undercover group gives extreme importance to getting the best students to become their followers, especially students successful in math and science. For the interested parties, the more controversial side of Gulen and his group was revealed in 1997. Following the confrontation between in the Islamic Refah Party and secular minded Turkish military, Fethullah Gulen's preaching tapes from mosques were broadcast on national television. In the tapes, Gulen advises his supporters to "hide their real intensions until the conditions are ripe". Meanwhile, the supporters are advised to acquire key positions in the judicial and executive branches of the government "without leaving any trace", building upto a vaguely described Islamic government. Gulen expresses grave sorrow at having to tolerate a secular government and makes deragatory remarks about Kemal Ataturk, the modernist founder of the Turkish republic. Due to the public outrage and the legal problems associated with the tapes, Fethullah Gulen fled the country and has since been residing in the United States. However, he still exerts enormous influence in Turkey. In particular, his supporters control some of the best education institutions in Turkey, in line with the groups focus on recruiting bright minds at young ages. His network of schools are spread all over the world, including all Asian countries, Africa and even United States. There are credible claims that his moderate Islamic ideology is getting active support from USA.

CLAIMS OF INTIMIDATION: There have been claims of intimidation by the group members, including well respected investigative journalist Hulki Cevizoglu, who claims to have been threatened following his articles on the group. Around the same time, a bomb was discovered under his car before it went off.

ON THE ROLE OF THE U.S.: US's position regarding Gulen is disputed. While on one hand US has been sheltering Gulen for the last 8 years, it is hard to reconcile This with the fact that Gulen is promoting a non-secular state in Turkey. One theory contends that the interests of the two are alinged in the central Asia, where Gulen's schools aim to break the Russian influence in the region. Still, it is hard to reconcile the cooperation in the Post september 11 world.

ON SECRET NATURE OF THE ORGANIZATION: For a reader from the western world, the description of the Gulen's organization above is likely to be seen as a conspiracy theory, but the reader unfamiliar with the Islamic movements should place it in the right context. First, in TUrkey and other secular Islamic countries, Islamic movements have endured long periods of suprresion and thus have developed the capacity to organize in secretive ways that would seem unnecasary for a civil society organization in the Western world. Second, in the Middle East and Turkey, the state has a disproportinate say in the public domain, and thus, different groups in the society are ready to take extreme measures to ensure the capture of te state appratus. While inconspicous sects/ organizations with an Islamic agenda are common in the MIddle EAst, The gulen organization is unmatched in its spohistication and achivements. This is a result of their extensive focus on education. In the las 20 years, a disproportionate share of the best minds from rural Turkey have been recruited by the Gulen organization. These students both lack the financial means to go through with their education and have not been exposed to the more cosmopolitan and modernist culture of the larger cities. The Gulen organization supports ther education while imbuing them with their Islamist/ conservative goals. AS a result of the process, the supporters of the group, while highly intelligent and educated, feel uncondional obedience to their superiors in the group and are actively dicouraged from critical thinking. I hope to add confessions by former members when I have time to translate them.

Just a man of religion

ResponseHe announced he equated a murderer to an atheist

To be perfectly blunt, when I first read the line above in 2004 I got what he meant. Although I don't know if the line completely reflects what he dictated or not (fake news or changing speech is quite common in Turkey), I am pretty sure he aimed to have attention on that a murderer can not be a religous person considering some main themes of all religions are common like not allowing anyone killing other.

When it comes to comments of the last person about his and his followers' activities above. Your comments sound to me more than those of anyone else in Public. You are either a former follower of him or someone in the contrary part the author of this subject mentioned. Anyway, this is not the point.

I want to have your attention on another point. When Fethullah Gulen went to Makkah as a pilgrim, the prosecutor sued him for the reasons mentioned in the main body of this thread. While he was there, the court took thousands of his cassettes under investigation and found nothing dangerous against both the Republic of Turkey and system of government.

There is still no trial against him although otherwise is known by everyone. Do you know how many people are currently living in US or in other foreign countries for medical reasons? Does't Fethullah Gulen have a right to be one of them? Don't you think Turkey would ask America to hand him over . Why Turkey never tried it as done in the case of some other culprits living in foreign countries?

Of course some have answers for this question. "Because Fethullah Gulen works for America". Claiming Michael Jackson is a German wouldn't be more trivial than this.

Deletion of significant content

Please discuss on this talk page prior to deleting significant content. Thanks. -- JamesTeterenko 16:25, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

A Version to start from

Somebody keeps changing the article to previous form. I will cange it to my version again. Please let me know if it is NOT OK with you? We can make further corrections on this version. This version is at least not as bias as the previous version against Gulen.

I would like to know if anybody want to discuss what was wrong with the previous version. We can discuss it sentence by sentence. Please do not convert it back if you dont want to discuss the muistakes and misstatements. Let us try get a concensus on the article.

Best,

Resid Gulerdem 19:33, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I believe that it would be best to start with the previous version. Some of the following is why I believe this:

• The previous article closer aligns to the Manual of Style. e.g. article bolded in the first sentance, usage of wikilinks
• The history of the changes are hard to read. This is a slightly picky item, but I find it very difficult to destinguish what you have reworded, deleted, added or just moved.

I suggest you start with modified wording that you find contentious. I'll help with the article formating, but I will not do that in the middle of a revert war. -- JamesTeterenko 19:51, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear Gulerdem and James, I honestly do not understand writing up a new article and declaring as the version to start from, as the bulk of the previous one has been up there at least for the last 6 months and has been improved through contributions of many, including self declared supporters of Fethullah Gulen. Moreover it contains verifable links. Third, you add a lot of quotes from Gulen, which make the article look like a propaganda tool rather than giving the encyclopedic and critical tone that it is supposed to have. As James suggests, I propose to start with the article that was there before , and if you propose changes, Id be happy to contribute in dicussing them one at a time.

Just to make myself clear, I think there is room for letting Gulen supporters summarize their own views, perhaps under the section works, but throwing in quotes from him and hailing him without critically analyzing his approach lowers the quality of the article.

Dear ???

OK I will go with that. I woudl appreciate if you could sign your name so I know who I am talking to. Many contribution so far is good, I hope there is some room for one more contribution. It is possible that I find out some mistakes there. In fack there are many.

I would like to start with the very first paragraph, I do not think that it is a good paragraph. There is no reason starting vith contraversial issues before even define who Mr. Gulen is actually is.

I propose to change the first paragfraph to: (Please see the article)

Thanks

Resid Gulerdem 21:10, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

First Paragraph

I changed the first paragraph. I would appreciate any comment, correction, suggestions on this. There might be some grammer errors. With this version, I believe, before starting to who the people following him are, how are they named, etc. reader will have a chance to learn who in fact he is briefly.

I will have more time to work on the other paragraphs but not today. Please let me know how does it sound.

Thanks,

Resid Gulerdem 21:36, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

In order not to break the three reverts rule, I will not revert the article to its original from today, but I think the change is for worse than for better.

In any[REDACTED] article for important people, the first paragraph gives a summary of what they are significant for. Ceheck HItler Gandhi Ataturk etc. The previous version did that: it highlighted Fethullah Gulen leads an Islamic movbement, which, all the sources agree, stemmed from the Nur movement, but he is also a highly controversial figure in the big debate in Turkish polity over the role of Islam in state and politics. What you changed into was:

"M. Fethullah Gülen is a former Islamic preacher, thinker and writer. He is one of the leaders of the Turkish people who identify themselves primarily as Muslim over other identifications in Turkey. He is fluent in Arabic and Persian and can communicate in English and French. He hasn't been married. Mr. Gulen's influence extends over much of Central Asia and Caucasus."

The first sentence is itself cotroversial; his critics do not consider him a thinker, that is the public stance by his supporters. If you dont take the meaning of word ligthly, publishing books is not necesssarily same as being a thinker. I am not sure what the second sentence is saying; are you saying trying to say he claims to be an Islamic figure without actually saying it? The third and fourth sentences are not significant enough to be in the first paragraph. And the last sentence is out of context; what is his influence about? It refers to the influence of the Fethullahci in these countries but because you deleted it the sentence does not mean much.

I am aware that breaking down even the best written paragraph can result in criticism as I presented above, but that does not change the fact that your version only makes the article worse and I cannot see any justification for the changes that you propose. baroqqque jan 5 2006

I agree, and I will revert the edit. Please read through Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style#Sections. The introduction and lead should state the reason why they are important enough to have an article. References to Nur, Fethullahci, Hizmet Insani, etc. have been removed. Unless these are not accurate, they should be included. -- JamesTeterenko 23:14, 5 January 2006 (UTC)