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::There are those advocating for bullshit to be the fuel we run things on. I don't think it qualifies as "clean", but it's renewable. <small>I see Misplaced Pages as something of a trial run for this effort. :)</small> But seriously, I'm not intending to antagonize you or to call you out, but I did want to remind you that not everyone who disagrees with you is an oblivious moron. :) Sometimes disputes are just expressions of reasonable differences of opinion. And I freely acknowledge that you are "right" more often than not. But don't let your frequent dealings with boobs influence you towards being fresh with those who aren't complete asses. ] (]) 20:35, 8 March 2010 (UTC) ::There are those advocating for bullshit to be the fuel we run things on. I don't think it qualifies as "clean", but it's renewable. <small>I see Misplaced Pages as something of a trial run for this effort. :)</small> But seriously, I'm not intending to antagonize you or to call you out, but I did want to remind you that not everyone who disagrees with you is an oblivious moron. :) Sometimes disputes are just expressions of reasonable differences of opinion. And I freely acknowledge that you are "right" more often than not. But don't let your frequent dealings with boobs influence you towards being fresh with those who aren't complete asses. ] (]) 20:35, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

:::Fair comment. Stumbling from one problem to the next it's hard to approach each one without just a little residue of the last. Just over the past week I've been blocked, bullied, insulted, and had to bite my tongue when others are . So I'm a little jaundiced when someone comes waltzing into an old discussion on a ], for instance, objecting to the use of the word "witch" on the grounds that I'm a credulous old stick in the mud who shouldn't be so silly as to believe in witches. YMMV of course, but I when I see bullshit I call it bullshit rather than fannying around the bushes. That's just not going to change. --] ] 21:14, 8 March 2010 (UTC)


== April Fools == == April Fools ==

Revision as of 21:14, 8 March 2010

There are many aspects of wikipedia's governance that seem to me to be at best ill-considered and at worst corrupt, and little recognition that some things need to change.

I appreciate that there are many good, talented, and honest people here, but there are far too many who are none of those things, concerned only with the status they acquire by doing whatever is required to climb up some greasy pole or other. Increasingly I feel that I'm out of step with the way things are run here, and at best grudgingly tolerated by the children who run this site.

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Blackbeard

I'm waiting for another book to clarify matters in the 35-odd years since the Lee book, and it needs a couple more read-throughs to trim the rough edges, but what else do you suppose I could write about this bloke, before sending him to FAC? Parrot of Doom 21:47, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I'll take a look. Have you has a look at Edward Lowe? --Malleus Fatuorum 22:17, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
That's another damn fine piece of work PoD, just about ready for FAC I'd say. Here am I wasting my considerable talents on bawdy trivia and you're churning out masterpieces like this. :lol:
On a completely different subject you mentioned on this page a week or so ago that you were contemplating a career change, or at least a return to full-time study. What are you thinking of studying? Answer privately if you'd prefer, or not at all if you think I'm being too nosey. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:36, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. The Lee book I'm certain has a few things wrong which Konstam has since corrected (new papers found, etc, correcting dates) so that's what I'm waiting for. The post office have it somewhere.
I'm thinking of an English Degree at the Open University. Work isn't too bad at the moment, but there are no guarantees in television and I have no other advertisable skills other than pointing a camera at a fast moving object or sticking a microphone in the right place. Teaching is something I reckon I could do quite well, and its the only thing I could see myself doing other than television, so I figured I may as well get the qualifications and training out of the way. I have to wait until October now, though. Parrot of Doom 23:15, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
BTW, astoundingly, Trafford libraries have come up trumps again and found what I think is going to be an excellent source for Elizabeth Canning, so that'll be another 18th-century scandal to work into shape. Parrot of Doom 23:15, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
OU degrees are seriously hard work; I've got a lot of respect for anyone with the determination and drive to get down to studying after a normal day's work. I did my degree the easy way, three years full-time on a maintenance grant most of which was spent in the Student Union bar. I did once enrol on an OU course on formal specification languages, but I abandoned it after I discovered that the course leader was someone I'd had a public falling out with in the pages of a computing magazine. Tosser.
Teaching is also seriously hard work these days, at least for the first couple of years anyway, after which you can just regurgitate the same old crap every year and look forward to your long holidays. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 23:54, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
PS. In recruitment-speak it's "transferrable skills", not "advertisable skills". You'd be amazed at what "transferrable skills" you could lay claim to if you applied your mind to it. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:59, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
It might be a little easier for me, I work between 2-3 days a week on average so I have a lot more spare time than most. Plus I think they're quite flexible in when you take the courses, its all split into little segments (makes it easier to afford also). I was going to start in Feb but was too late to enrol. Parrot of Doom 19:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Hey PoD - sorry to butt in - but have you thought of lecturing? Several people I know have transferred from journalism to journalism lecturing without a degree... they simply take a Masters degree (paid for by the Uni they are working for) - and Bob's your uncle. (And, of course, universities have even longer holidays than schools!). Your type of skills are, I have just been assured by one of these new lecturers, highly sought after. (Salary from £30k).--79.64.134.71 (talk) 22:07, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not particularly enamoured with the idea of lecturing students on, presumably, "meeja". Many of those students are part of the reason why I'm getting rather sick of this job, one can only work for so long with people who think that waving a Z1 around and filming everything that moves constitutes programme-making. Standards are slipping woefully low. Besides which, I earn far more than £30k actually "doing", rather than "teaching", so if I change career it will be a big change. I do, however, like the idea of being able to encourage youngsters to develop their language skills and historical knowledge, which are two things I think are very sadly lacking these days. These are all early musings however, and I may well change my mind at some point. You only live once... Parrot of Doom 22:16, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Given what I've seen of your interests here on[REDACTED] and what you've just said I'd have thought that history was a more natural fit PoD. You've even made a start on your first history book; Notable 18th-century hoaxes. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 22:23, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
The degree sounds great! As far as teaching goes why don't you spend some time in a school (not on your doorstep, 5 miles is about right otherwise you trip over someone who "knows" you every time you go out). Get in touch with a head, and don't just think of the "best" schools, there is such competition for jobs in them, look at some of the others (the inner city can be very supportive not only to pupils) and be realistic. Schools have changed such a lot, mostly, but not always, for the better. I have seen some fantastic late entrants to the teaching profession and a few with high ideals who clearly didn't research the job properly. Unfortunately these days teachers can't always chose what to teach, even within their chosen curriculum area, but in my very humble opinion, it's how teachers build relationships and earn respect that makes it possible to pass on a love for learning and an enquiring mind (which you already demonstrate here). --J3Mrs (talk) 22:48, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Sounds like good advice. While you're here, can I ask you something? Was DSCF0233 really taken on 1 January this year? There's bright sunshine, a chap strolling in a short-sleeved shirt, and no snow on the ground, but the snow lay for weeks here in the big city and it's still ball-chillingly cold. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:55, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Sorry to hijack your page Mal but I know a few admins pay attention. Can any of them read this thread and sort out the mess, please? It needs a simple article move or two. Parrot of Doom 23:05, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
They only watch my page looking for a pretext to block me, but occasionally useful nevertheless. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:07, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Blocking Malleus would have been much more exciting, but unfortunately I couldn't find a reason, and I'm not creative enough to make one up out of whole cloth, so I've gone ahead and fixed PoD's issue instead. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:29, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Thanks pal. The original "mover" did so without any warning or discussion, and then claimed that the Little Boots song was not a secondary topic to a Pink Floyd album. I'd issue a sentence of death for that, if I could. Parrot of Doom 23:37, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
OK, death threats! Now there's something I think I can block for. Blocking you wouldn't be quite as exciting (no offense), so I'll just wait for Malleus to agree with you and then spring into action! --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:44, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
I want to go on record as saying that I think PoD was completely out of order in not assuming good faith, and that he ought to be taken to task and given a civility warning and told in no uncertain terms that personal attacks are unacceptable. Now you have your excuse Floquenbeam, my account has obviously been compromised. ;-) --Malleus Fatuorum 23:53, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
But, if your account was compromised, wouldn't the Cabal be happy with the exchange, and therefore overturn my block at ANI and send me in for social reprogramming take away my mop? --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:00, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
It was a trick, check out the links. Besides, the Cabal do as they please anyway. --Malleus Fatuorum 00:03, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
For someone whose sense of humor is not failing them, "civility warning" is missing an entry. :) Dabomb87 (talk) 02:57, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
BTW, another of my many interests (I do have many!) is this twin beam pump in Radcliffe, which I finally got to see today (its my thread, and my piccies). I've emailed and pestered enough people now that things are in motion. I want to see it working again, or at the very least put back in order so it looks nice, and can be a tourist attraction. Another good example of how contributing to Misplaced Pages can expand your horizons - I'd never have found out about it were it not for doing Radcliffe, Greater Manchester. Parrot of Doom 16:18, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Well done for geting things moving on that. Looks like an awful lot of work's going to be needed there. I was amused by your "that crack may be a problem" comment. It's not a "crack" man, there's a bloody great chunk of the wheel missing! :lol: --Malleus Fatuorum 16:33, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

It may end up in the Museum of Science and Industry, who knows, but I'd prefer it to stay where it is. Heavy machinery will be needed to move that wheel though, lol. The pipes are interesting, riveted along their length. Never seen that before. Its one of those things that I'm happy to spend as much of my personal time on as I can, and my own money too. I have ideas for public access and everything, I've thought about it all, the council want to open that area up to the public a bit, and I have the ideal solution for them :) Parrot of Doom 16:37, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Fuck sake. Guess which twonk ordered two copies of the same book then? I opened this morning's mail, hoping to find the Konstam book I need for this article, and finding instead another copy of Lee. I think I'll donate it to the library, that'll make me feel all warm inside. Or maybe that's just the wee leaking down my leg. Parrot of Doom 21:02, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Did it come from Amazon? I've had the same thing happen with them. I ordered three books with their 1-click system and I got two copies of two of them, luckily the two cheap ones. I keep meaning to put them back up for sale on Amazon. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:10, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, I use Amazon all the time for cheap books. It was my mistake, I ordered the book I wanted from one seller who cancelled, so I re-ordered, but I must have re-ordered while drunk and got the Lee book again. Oh well, its only 8 quid, pales into insignificance with the mortgage etc. Parrot of Doom 21:41, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Doubt

No. BigStupid.

I've obviously missed something then (again). Any clues? --Malleus Fatuorum 04:39, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Nope. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:43, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
I think I may have caught up. This is to do with Mr Rodriguez again. --Malleus Fatuorum 04:52, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
I can't feel my feet. (ask moni) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:38, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Sandy. You crack me up. --Moni3 (talk) 06:46, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
I'll pay tmorrow ... this is new terrotory for me. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:48, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
I broke a fingernail, too. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Friends don't let friends edit drunk. MastCell  07:01, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
MastCell, shhhh! Yes they do. Just pass Sandy the beer bong and bask in the moment. --Moni3 (talk) 07:03, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
all i want is a manicure. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:09, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Do *not* send chocolate. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:17, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

What about some aspirins? --Malleus Fatuorum 16:20, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Allergic. I'll just have to wait this one out. The day-after evidence indicates that only three glasses does me in. No wonder I don't imbibe. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:40, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
At least you're cheap on a night out then. --Malleus Fatuorum 20:45, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
I can usually find other ways to compensate for being a cheap date. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:36, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
O_o Must...look...away...and scrub brain with cleanser after visualizing.... --Moni3 (talk) 21:55, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Saddened

Me too, and my post was intended as a general comment without any implied criticism. All reactions I've seen to this are understandable in my eyes. This morning, I shared the disappointment and surprise of your first response, but did not have time to comment. Best wishes, Geometry guy 21:42, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

For whatever it's worth (and it would be worth nothing to Mattisse unfortuntely), I too have been saddened by this for months. I do not wish to think of people irredeemable and I was grieved to find every olive branch I extended rejected. I don't understand it. I regret that I may have been problematic to her mentors because I was very genuinely frustrated a few times. My own inability to reason away my frustration I consider a personal failure. I apologize, Geometry guy. I read over the talk page of Mulholland Drive recently, and I remember the way you and I began editing that article. I respected you then and I still do. I hope we can collaborate again and be friends. --Moni3 (talk) 21:51, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Straw Poll

Feel free to take part in a straw poll on my user talk page, Malleus. (I'd really like your input!)--Coldplay Expért 00:30, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I'll give you my input right here. Don't even think about it, it's a stupid idea. --Malleus Fatuorum 00:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Ah yes, everyone I know thinks its a stupid thing to do. (sorry for the pun, though you may not get it to be honest.) Anyway, I was not the one thinking about it. Rather, NSD was. I created the poll to show him that any RFA of mine go down in flames.--Coldplay Expért 02:52, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
You're right, I don't understand your banter. ;-) --Malleus Fatuorum 23:18, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

undeleting Cousins Properties

I disagree with speedy deletion of Cousins Properties. It was deleted because there was "no indication of importance". I will concede, per WP:LISTED, that the fact that the company is traded on the NASDAQ does not make it inherently notable, but I should think that fact should at least save it from speedy deletions and force any deletion attempts to be done through an AfD. But then again, I suppose "thinking" is the problem, isn't it? For example, I shouldn't think anything of the fact that 22[REDACTED] articles mention Cousins Properties (even though most don't link to it). I shouldn't think anything of the fact "Cousins Properties" can easily be made to be a non-orphaned article whereas articles like Highland (Capital MetroRail station), despite being almost guaranteed to be orphans, per the afd, are "inherently notable" and thus apparently immune from deletion. Neither should I think the fact that, according to Google News, the company has been mentioned in news articles 5,000+ times since 1976, satisfies the An organization is generally considered notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources criteria stated in WP:COMPANY? That argument was good enough to keep the article on Cuil but I suppose I shouldn't think that that argument is good enough for this article.

I will concede that the article could use improvement, but that's an argument for making it a stub (which it already was) - not for subjecting it to a speedy deletion.

Also, I'm not interested in userficiation and indeed, if the article is userfied, I will delete it as my userspace is my own. I just think the article deserves better than a speedy deletion. If it was decided, through an AfD, to delete the article, I'd be content, but that's not what happened, now is it? TerraFrost (talk) 17:02, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I didn't delete the article, I just drew attention to its inadequacy by tagging it for speedy deletion. If you believe that you can make a case for notability then go right ahead, but if you restore the same self-aggrandizing fluff piece then it'll be deleted again, sure as eggs is eggs. --Malleus Fatuorum 17:31, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I believe I just did make a case for it's notability. I mean, what do you think my initial comment on your talk page was? The same sort of fluff you think the article I created was? Funny, because I think your reply is just as full of fluff as you seem to think mine is.
And regardless of whether or not you deleted it, the fact that you would call it a "self-aggrandizing fluff piece" means that you might as well have. So tell me - what, exactly, made it "self-aggrandizing fluff"? I don't believe it was at all. It was intended as a purely informative piece. It had like one sentence as I recall. It said it was founded by Tom Cousins, who has a[REDACTED] article, already. It said it was a REIT. How is any of that "self-aggrandizing fluff"? I didn't add any information that wasn't already on wikipedia. If the article I created was "self-aggrandizing fluff" then so to is the information I mentioned in the article. So if you think the article I was made was fluff, here's an idea: go delete List of public REITs in the United States, Tom Cousins and Companies listed on the New York Stock Exchange (C) since they must obviously be self-aggrandizing fluff, as well.
Misplaced Pages has a policy: Assume good faith. I suggest you familiarize yourself with it because apparently you're not. TerraFrost (talk) 17:52, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages has several policies I believe to be more appropriate for a nursery school project than for an enterprise undertaken by responsible adults. AGF is not synonymous with "suspend all reasonable scepticism and powers of rational thought", as too many seem to assume. Now if you've finished ranting please clear off. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:04, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
(e/c) If you folks are enjoying this argument, don't let me stop you. But from a practical matter, it's serving no purpose: (a) I've restored the article and added a reference from the Atlanta Business Journal that will likely make it immune to a speedy deletion (b) it wasn't really a fluff piece, and (c) it's really annoying when someone shows up on another editor's talk page, posts in a needlessly snotty and aggressive manner, and then demands that they get an assumption of good faith in return. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:08, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Interestingly Tom Cousins himself has been nominated for speedy deletetion, and not by me. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:12, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Vote: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Cousins Properties TerraFrost (talk) 18:25, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
No thank you. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:26, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
This 2nd cousin properties AfD is bizarre. I am finding so many sources its mind-boggling to weed through them.--Milowent (talk) 17:00, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
What was bizarre was the motivation for opening it. --Malleus Fatuorum 17:25, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Hitlerszalonna

What do you think of this? ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:23, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

That seems fine to me; surprised to see it tagged for deletion. --Malleus Fatuorum 17:35, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

What about this one: User:ChildofMidnight/Mermaid problem? Here's the deletion discussion . There does seem to be a fair amount of synthy original research, but on the other hand it seems kind of notable, interesting and well sourced to have been noted and recognized as an issue in various works of art and literature. Is there a way to include the content appropriately? Should it just be a small section in Mermaid? ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:12, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

FWIW, seeing a Fortean Times article as the first entry in the reference section is about as red as a red flag could be. – iridescent 22:18, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
(adding) And seeing a Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy entry cited as a 'source' pretty much kills the credibility for me. – iridescent 22:21, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I haven't looked at that article, but I think you do the Fortean Times a disservice Iridescent. I'm preparing an oeuvre on the Green children of Woolpit, and there's no doubt that the Fortean article is some of the best scholarship available. Mind you, I suspect you'll point out that that's perhaps not saying very much. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 22:43, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Is that FT article that you mentioned about blood rain online? Nev1 (talk) 23:23, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I've had a look through the FT site and I can't see it. I think I may have seen it Fortean Studies, which is a periodic collection of the more academically oriented FT stories. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
FT does indeed have some genuinely good researchers; Jenny Randles, for instance, is probably the world's leading expert on aerial phenomena, and Jan Bondeson practically keeps Parrot of Doom in business. However FT suffers from the same problem as Playboy in Misplaced Pages terms; the legitimate articles are interspersed with froth and fluff, and without verifying from footnotes it's impossible to tell what is what. (Heck, the very essence of Forteanism and "one measures a circle beginning anywhere" is that the loons are given equal airtime to the sane and there's no editorial judgement as to which are which; the disclaimer within every copy of FT says inter alia that "FT is a forum for observations and ideas, however absurd or unpopular".) – iridescent 22:58, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I think that's a fair point. In fact Bondeson has been very useful to me as well, with some of the premature burial stuff– from his books, not from his FT articles. The problem is though, of course, that lots of the whackier stuff is ignored by the more mainstream journals, so often it's only published in the FT. With the green children, for instance, I've come across a scholarly article on a novel inspired by the story that references the FT article, as an authoritative source on the origins of the story, so it's horses for courses. Bit of a nightmare for Ealdgyth though, trying to judge the relaibility of sources; not enough to look at where something's published, but also at the wider reputation of the author. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:08, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
"Heck, the very essence of Forteanism and 'one measures a circle beginning anywhere' is that the loons are given equal airtime to the sane and there's no editorial judgement as to which are which". Kind of sums up[REDACTED] as well, don't you think? --Malleus Fatuorum 23:12, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Oh, Fort would have had a lot to say about Misplaced Pages. Not so much the 'one measures a circle' part, but The Book of the Damned; the preamble to TBOTD could practically serve as a user manual to that peculiar beast, "Misplaced Pages consensus". – iridescent 23:39, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I expect he would. Actually that link contains quite an extensive discussion of blood and other coloured rains that Nev1 was asking about above. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:59, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
OK, I've had a look now, and I've got so many issues with that Mermaid problem article it's untrue. Starting with the basics, who has ever used the term "mermaid problem" other than the author of this article? The Examples section might just as well be renamed Trivia, and the whole thing gives the very strong impression of being a piece of original research. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:56, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for your insights Iridescent and Malleus Fatuorum. I pretty much agree. The options I've come up with are an article on mermaid morphology, an article on mythological animal morphology or integrating into the article on Mythological conundrums I created, that is not good at all so far. I think there's some subject there somewhere with sources, but I haven't found it. So it's an uphill effort so far, but I'm hoping that a great inspiration will arise in an epiphany or, better yet, someone else will come up with a good idea. Anatomy of mythological creatures? ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:57, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Personally, I'd say you're on a hiding to nothing with this topic. To do it justice, you're going to need to cover 3000+ years of history in multiple cultures. Just as an example, think of how much work would need to be done explaining the origins, characteristics, cultural background and possible basis in dinosaur-nest fact of:
Then, once you've done that – which would be a long book's worth of research and writing in itself – imagine doing the same for the mermaid, the giant, the cockatrice, the griffin – even my personal favorite mythological critter (inexplicably overlooked by J.K. Rowling and the writers of horror movies alike), the Enfield.
And once you've done that, you'll have written a lengthy high-traffic article which by its nature is going to implicitly criticize major world religions, The X-Files, and the Harry Potter books. Once it goes into the mainspace, you'll then have an object lesson in the less savory implications of "you can edit this page!", and within three days the whole thing will have degenerated into an incoherent soup with little if any resemblance to what you meant it to say.
Misplaced Pages is superb at covering low-interest, low-traffic topics but the Misplaced Pages model is awful at covering topics like this. Seriously, don't try. – iridescent 15:59, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

March 2010

Welcome to Misplaced Pages. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we must insist that you assume good faith while interacting with other editors. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Just because my account is pretty new doesn't mean I haven't been reading Misplaced Pages for a while. You seem a little paranoid, maybe you should step back from the vote? QuattroBajeena (talk) 04:21, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

FWIW i don't think this warning is warranted. Malleus posed an observation that went no further than being an (in my view accurate) observation, and drew some off-topic ire from a third party (Hammersoft) to whch he then responded. Some of us who have spent time at WP:COI, battling vandals and POV-pushers are quite willing to assume good faith but also put up red flags as soon as we see them - such as was the case here. Lots of us read Misplaced Pages for a long time before we edited here, but to enter debates such as this one at the start of one's editing history does appear unusual to others of us too - which is what Malleus stated. All it was was a flag. Quattro, i invite you to strikethrough your tagging here, and particularly the suggestion that Malleus is paranoid, which appears to assume less good faith than did Malleus. hamiltonstone (talk) 04:46, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
What exactly are you accusing me of having a conflict of interest on? And accusing a new user of being a sockpuppet for voting in a Request for Comment is absolutely being paranoid. If you can't see that, perhaps you need to take a step back as well? I thought that anyone could edit Misplaced Pages.--QuattroBajeena (talk) 04:59, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Quack quack quack quack... The old, I've been reading Misplaced Pages for a while schtick. And I'm all for being nice to noobs, but it doesn't demand we be silly about it... ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:52, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Quattro, i obviously didn't make my point clearly enough. Long-time editors like Malleus or myself or many others (CoM too it seems) see a lot of editors come in to Misplaced Pages with a lot of agendas, whether they are particular POVs in articles, or commercial agendas, or conflicts of interest, or a desire to vandalise, or helping out a real-life friend (AKA meatpuppetry, sometimes), and so on. Sockpuppetry is also very common. After spending a lot of time dealing with these things, it is common to assume good faith, but also to immediately, and sometimes directly and bluntly, raise the possibility of alternative explanations. In a relatively heated and intensely watched RfC, a newly-registered account coming straight in and engaging in an RfC about the management of administrator functions (something most new editors aren't even aware exist) is the sort of thing that will trigger this kind of questioning. I wasn't accusing you of COI or of any other particular problem, but trying to explain the kinds of experiences editors have that lead them to raise these issues. Paranoia is in the eye of the beholder: you think i exhibit it, i think you exhibit it. You can be sure neither Malleus nor I will be taking any steps back. hamiltonstone (talk) 05:32, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
You got that right Hamiltonstone. --Malleus Fatuorum 12:54, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
MF, you've been templated by a duck; lots of those goin' round :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:23, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
I lodged an Alert; someone else can file the SPI if that's necessary as well. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:41, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
An analysis of QuattroBajeena's contributions is rather revealing. Issuing a templated 3RR warning on your second edit? I mean, come on. --Malleus Fatuorum 14:46, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
my first edit was an afd. maybe QuattroBajeena has previously contributed anonymously without an account. maybe QuattroBajeena is a new account created by an established user for this exact purpose but even if that is what it were so long as it is not being used "to alter the apparent weight of an opinion" it is not sockpuppetry. i find your overall cynicism of[REDACTED] very refreshing but am disappointed by this display of cronyism. attacking a user simply because they are new is the textbook definition of ad hominem. Misterdiscreet (talk) 18:07, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
I think you've met before. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:52, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
I don't understand much of what goes on at WR. --Malleus Fatuorum 15:59, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
You missed out on the opportunity to be on a 10th grade pep squad with the girls who thought they were popular. No wonder you don't get it. --Moni3 (talk) 16:05, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
I don't even know what a pep squad is. So much to learn ... --Malleus Fatuorum 16:51, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Pep squad: Girls who weren't elected as cheerleaders but get to wear uniforms and cheer in the bleachers anyway. Sometimes they dance (the crowd usually hopes they don't). Generally take themselves and their role seriously but are egregiously teased by everyone else. This may be more practiced in the Southern US, where high school (American) football is king. At my school we called the pep squad the "whore corps". Karanacs (talk) 17:03, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Some schools they are the Pom-pom squad, instead. And some lucky schools have all three! Cheerleaders, pom-poms, and pep squad. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:06, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
There are times when I am so thankful I am not a girl in an American High School I could weep.Fainites scribs 22:00, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Here's a dose of musical theatre that might help you understand, Malleus; what drives some people is quite simple. Karanacs, only a Texan could describe pep squad girls so well :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:12, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
If Lord of the Flies was rewritten for girls, it would be about girls on the pep squad and those who are not on the pep squad, either because they tried out and did not make it (to be forever scorned for wanting to do something and failing at it), or they never imagined someone would want to be on a pep squad (which would translate for the pep squad that they really want to be on the pep squad but are too ugly, poor, clumsy, or otherwise imperfect). For a week following the choosing of who gets to be on the pep squad, the pep squad is a united group, uniformly dressed and similarly rejecting those who are not within their ranks. Following that week, however, chaos unravels when the pep squad members continue to reject outsiders while simultaneously competing with each other for whatever their individual goals are: boys, trophies, titles, clothes, facebook pages, etc. It's a fascinating society. --Moni3 (talk) 17:15, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
April Fools 2011: a Moni, Malleus, PoD collaboration. That oughta keep you all inspired. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:40, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
It's Misplaced Pages policy, Sandy. Once you write an April Fools FA you are forever immune from being recruited from writing another. Like chicken pox. Have you written one? Hmmmmmmm???? --Moni3 (talk) 19:58, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm on it. Ask MastCell. "The World's No. 2 Authority
I have an absolute blinder for 1 April next year, I just need to find more sources on it. Raul has shown himself to be quite brave with a certain article being TFA'd last year, but this one is easily as objectionable. Parrot of Doom 21:36, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Go on then you little tease, what is it? --Malleus Fatuorum 03:33, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

You've already seen it :) Parrot of Doom 14:29, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
The best part about that CDA thread was Hammersoft accusing you of insulting him. Now, I'm fairly positive that you and I are both well acquainted with insults, in both directions. What I saw was you going miles out of your way not to insult anyone. It's hard for me to support a process that has editors like that slavering at the bit. Of course, you might be itching to implement it as well - but at least I moderately trust your judgment thereabouts. I dunno, I might stay out of the whole thing. Tan | 39 13:28, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
If I'd intended to insult Hammersoft nobody would be in any doubt about it, as I'm sure you can imagine. I've supported the CDA proposal as a protest against the "admin for life" culture really, not because I particularly want to see it implemented or think there's any chance that it will be. I couldn't ever imagine using it myself anyway, just like I've never been to RfC or ArbCom, except as the defendant. In truth I think the fear some of the opposition has expressed that groups of editors may gang up on individual administrators is a reasonable one, and it would almost certainly happen. Whether they'd be successful or not though is another matter of course. My preference is for fixed terms of two years or so, with the option of some kind of straightforward renewal process in which other editors have the opportunity to voice an opinion if the administrator opts to carry on in that role, but nothing even remotely like RfA. I well understand the reluctance I'm sure every administrator would feel at having the run the gauntlet at RfA again; it's a harrowing enough experience even when you haven't been blocking and deleting for the previous two years. Despite my well-known views on administrators there are probably only half a dozen or so out of the 800 odd who're active that I'd actively oppose at any renomination, and I'd be surprised if they didn't know who they were– you wouldn't be one of them btw. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 13:49, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
I wouldn't think so. Whatever problems we've had seems to be in the past; as you've mentioned in passing, we see eye to eye on more things that we admit. Fixed terms makes complete sense; it's too bad this wasn't implemented from the start. The Misplaced Pages society has too much inertia now to make sweeping changes - especially controversial ones like a fixed-term proposal is bound to be. Thus, our communities' answer is to create yet another process. You can probably draw parallels to various governments. Adding a bureaucratic layer - as I perceive this proposal to be - is hardly a good thing. Yet I still find myself wanting there to be any way to desysop other than Arbcopm. I'd probably be the first one up against the wall when the revolution came (see the latest thread on my talk page). Tan | 39 14:10, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

DYK

Notes: several DYK regulars, including myself, are strongly supporting toughening DYK standards; we can't make it a written policy, but reserved right for reviewers to reject based on informal criteria. The key issue is having enough men*hours of good reviewers, and your help would be appreciated there. A few editors who keep the project running are doing their best, but simply can't cover up everything. Materialscientist (talk) 03:21, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

To be perfectly honest I think that DYK has lost its way. For amusement I not infrequently look at the mainpage DYKs, and I'd estimate that about 25% are an embarrassment and about 75% of the hooks are "who gives a fuck?" The time for rewarding new articles has passed; it's time to start rewarding good articles instead. --Malleus Fatuorum 03:31, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Well, they're better than the best writings of many a "leader" or "policymaker" on wiki....not that this means much YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 04:22, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
If I ruled the world and could make just one change at DYK it would be "for Christ's sake, make the hook interesting!" I mean, "Did you know that politician X runs an antiques store in smallville Y?" just makes me yawn. Maybe the criteria for DYK ought to be that the subject is actually interesting to more than half a dozen people. --Malleus Fatuorum 04:30, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
That's what happened in the old days with only two people operating DYK in early 2006, but some people just went nuts and gave everyone an earful each time their hook got questioned, when the hook was just "...that X built this house" or whatever rather than "that John Devitt won the 100m freestyle despite clocking a slower time than silver medallist Lance Larson?" but the culture on Misplaced Pages rewards people for turning a blind eye to anything, so these BLP reforms aren't going to work either except teh usual posturing. Everyone who runs for ARBCOM etc makes the usual specch about standing up for NPOV but how many of them rv pov pushers? If they did they would get opposes at elections YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 04:37, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
"... the culture on Misplaced Pages rewards people for turning a blind eye to anything". You got that right. --Malleus Fatuorum 04:42, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
That what I was saying above - we failed to do that by setting solid DYK rules and can only press as reviewers - every nom has to be approved or rejected, and only extra voices at T:TDYK can help that at the moment. Materialscientist (talk) 03:40, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm not a disinterested commentator though is what I'm suggesting. I think DYK occupies too much real estate on the main page to the detriment of GAs, which aren't featured at all and are far more hard work to write. --Malleus Fatuorum 03:50, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
(i) Sectioning of the main page is decided above DYK project. (ii) A large percentage of DYK articles go straight to GAN (I monitored that by seeing GA tags while tagging the articles). (iii) There was a move to bring DYK standards closer to GA, and again, it's all about (lack of) manpower. Sure, GA standards are higher, but it is much much slower and can't keep up with those recent events which are not good enough for ITN. Materialscientist (talk) 04:11, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
I think perhaps we may disagree about the details. My experience would be that hardly any DYKs are taken to GAN, and any move to align the DYK standard with the GA criteria would effectively result in the elimination of almost all DYKs as failing to achieve that standard. Your point about "recent events" is of course a red herring, as[REDACTED] is not a news source, and any sensible editor would delay writing about an event until the dust had settled on a few reliable sources. --Malleus Fatuorum 04:19, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
You can check yourself that almost any DYK article written by Yzx, Sasata, Ucucha, Sturmvogel and a few others goes to GAN (some might not like their topics, but their quality is high even by my standards). Johnbod, Spinningspark, Cbl, and many others, also write quality content. User:Stone - a hard-core encyclopedian was turned to write for DYK ;) and find it refreshing, not to mention user:Dr. Blofeld (his edit stats would tell much). "Not a news source" is my background, but, that part makes WP No1 information site and thus attracts serious editors, whom we desperately need for quality content. Materialscientist (talk) 04:48, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, though I never put anything up for GA; I feel about it pretty much as Malleus does about DYK, and judging DYK on the basis of what goes on to GA is a pointless exercise. Ceoil for one puts his future FAs through DYK if they are new. Johnbod (talk) 18:39, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
I do not doubt that some are taken on to GA, but your assertion was that "a large percentage" were, which I think is at best dubious. In an attempt to establish some parameters here, would 5% be a large percentage in your eyes? --Malleus Fatuorum 04:59, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
5% is large for me, considering the numbers of GA/GAN articles and number of new/all articles. I am too lazy to get an estimate, and this is beyond my point, which is, with enough reviewers, DYK standards can become closer to GA. Materialscientist (talk) 05:13, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Then you are clearly not a scientist, material or otherwise. Your claim was that a large percentage of DYKs were advanced to at least GA, which is clearly rubbish. I think we've discussed this enough now. --Malleus Fatuorum 05:22, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
I also remember seeing GA nominations fairly regularly while doing DYK updates, so I decided to check the manual updates I have performed since February 15. That was a total of 101 articles, which included 1 FLC, 2 GANs, and 3 GAs. Ucucha 19:46, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Hmmm, 6%. I'm surprised it's even that high. I wonder what happens to the other 94%, if anything. --Malleus Fatuorum 20:17, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
They join the ranks of the other three million articles that never see much action, I guess. I actually agree that Misplaced Pages should focus more on improving existing content, instead of adding new articles. Creating the right incentives may help in getting people to focus on that, but doing so is complicated by systemic inertia and by the difficulty in achieving well-functioning incentives. I would be interested in exploring possibilities, even when they are as radical as replacing DYK by a list of the newest GAs. Ucucha 20:34, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
The overall percentages are about the same as those above. Category:Misplaced Pages Did you know articles has 34873 members, Category:Misplaced Pages Did you know articles that are good articles has 1972, Category:Misplaced Pages Did you know articles that are featured articles has 517, and Category:Misplaced Pages Did you know articles that are featured lists has 287, giving 8% of DYKs which have become good or featured. Dr pda (talk) 22:09, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Very interesting, thanks for that. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:50, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
(undent)I'm with Malleus on this.
  • The DYK criteria are to create an article or expand one by least 5x, so that the result is at 1500 chars of pure prose, all within 5 days.
  • The GA criteria are more complex, but the ones I think most about are "reasonable coverage", WP:V and reasonable presentation (incl prose). IMO coverage and references are the most work, even if the article is B-class before work starts. The % of articles of B-class or lower that reach GA is very small. IMO the gap between B-class and GA is so large that in my experience it's usually a re-write.
  • What % of articles reach DYK at all? I'd expect that only a insignificant % of GAs have early reached DYK.
  • I'd expect that only a insignificant % of DYK articles reach GA within 2 years.
As Malleus said in another discussion, DYK is a quick and dirty job. --Philcha (talk) 06:49, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
The expansion part of the DYK criteria annoys me. I've completely re-written articles in under 5 days, and eliminated virtually all the old (and bad) content. Yet still, my editing hasn't produced a 5x expansion, or, by the rules, a "new article" (even though it is). I say we should look at more tabloid style hooks, for instance yesterday Michael Foot died, and I still remember one tabloid headline from years back, that said "Foot Heads Arms Body". Parrot of Doom 09:02, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
The general focus on new articles as opposed to decent articles is a relic of wikipedia's early days, but DYK has to evolve. I've been made to feel like a second-class editor because I've only created maybe 30 or so articles in my time here, but how many have I improved, and like you often improved very substantially? Misplaced Pages has over 3 million articles now, but the overwhelming majority are complete crap. Time for a rethink; son of DYK ought to be turning its attention on article improvement, not more of the same old rubbish that'll never be more than the barely adequate stubs that too many DYKs are destined to remain. --Malleus Fatuorum 13:16, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Mendip Hills

Following its appearance on the front page a couple of days ago Mendip Hills (which became FA in early 2007) has been put up for FAR. Some of the reviewers comments include "Choppy prose" (which I would be really grateful if you could look at) + lots of stuff about references & citations, which I will work on.— Rod 12:12, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Oh dear, not much of a reward for your day in the limelight. I'll try and help out with the FAR. --Malleus Fatuorum 13:19, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Query

Whatever happened to you reading over German Type UB I submarine and telling me what's left for an FA? Slipped your mind? If you just don't want to you can go ahead ans tell me. I'll be ok.--Coldplay Expért 21:58, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

It did slip my mind, but I've also been a bit busy over the last few days with some RL writing, so Ive been popping in here from time to time as a little break from the serious (i.e., paid) stuff. I'll try and take a look later. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:53, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Ah yes. I would imagine that your job would be more important than this place. (The joys of being a minor inculde no work) When you get the chance, just read over it. Thanks and enjoy your semi-wikibreak, AKA:Work (that is, if you enjor your job).--Coldplay Expért 22:58, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
When your time comes you'll find that Work is like the curate's egg, good in parts. When there are bills to be paid though there's little alternative. Anyway, I've just about finished what I had to get done today, so I ought to be able to take a look at your sub shortly. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:36, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Thank you. For both parts.--Coldplay Expért 23:39, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I've a quick look through and I think there would likely be a few problems at FAC. The first is to do with the prose, which ought to be fairly easy to fix, but needs fixing. For instance, "... built in Germany during the beginning of World War I" is at best awkward. How long did "the beginning of World War I" last? "Construction on the first boats ..."? Obviously what's meant is "construction of", as no construction could take place on the boats until they'd been built. You also really need to look very carefully at the whole article again for obvious grammatical errors like "over the UB Is' first year of service ..."; it's a singular type, so it should be "UB I's". You'd also need to be prepared to field questions about the German and Bulgarian sources used, or at least have the help of someone who could.

Overall I think the article is a reasonable GA that still needs some tidying up, but it's got a way to go before facing the lions at FAC. --Malleus Fatuorum 04:04, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

ALright then. Thanks. Perhaps I shall wait until I'm fully ready to handle a task like that to take it to FAC. For now, I'll just do DYK's and GA's.--Coldplay Expért 11:28, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Not sure whether to laugh or cry

Sometimes I weep for the loss of common sense. This edit just sums up for me the malaise at the heart of wikipedia; too many toss pots who think they're allowed to reinvent history as it suits them.

For anyone interested in the facts, causing harm by witchcraft (not witchcraft itself) was a crime in 17th-century England, and those poor unfortunates were convicted and executed as witches. Obviously causing harm by witchcraft is a crime that's inconceivable to a 21st-century teenager living in Randy's home town of Boise– it's an absurd notion to me as well– but that's what they were found guilty of nevertheless.

I've got an idea. Why don't we change the words in all of wikipedia's articles to suit the narrow-minded world view of Randy from Boise? --Malleus Fatuorum 02:49, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

*snark* "Live with it". I flew here to read this because the subheading matches a very good long forgotten ABBA song from their post-divorce cynical phase. Anyway, understand your frustration. Won't someone please think of the witches? Other than Roald Dahl? --Moni3 (talk) 02:54, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
(ec with Moni the gadfly) Oh, my (I liked your response). What's a "toss pot"? @Moni: Laugh (and send balloons). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:58, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
It's an ... err ... don't we have an article on it somewhere? Remember spitoons in those old Western movies? Well, spit isn't the only bodily fluid that can be ... to cut a long story short, "toss" is a slang term for masturbation. There I've said it now. --Malleus Fatuorum 03:01, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Don't you have towels over there? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:02, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Hahha! Malleus is embarrassed about wankin'. I think that's choice. --Moni3 (talk) 03:05, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
If my extremely poor eyesight and hairy hands would allow me to reply to that, then I would. --Malleus Fatuorum 03:12, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
You still haven't told me why you need a pot ... never been to a baseball game in Venezuela, I see (where you'd need the pot to protect your head from the flying bodily fluids). Moni, stop beating me to the punch; I just figgered out it's a wanker. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:16, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
I don't need a pot, but apparently others at some other time did. It does seem a strange idea when you come to think of it ... ah well, such is life. --Malleus Fatuorum 03:22, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Sandy, you need to be quicker. Or have the lyrics to She Bop memorized. Good vibrations. Goin' out with a lion's roar, goin' south, that is one weird video--hahah self service...messin' with the danger zone, oh, Cyndi. You're so awesome. --Moni3 (talk) 03:24, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
No, wait, dude! Dr. Siggy's Masterbingo! I totally missed that the first time because I was typing. That's so awesome! Lulz! That was 1984. Nancy Reagan must have shit a gold brick. --Moni3 (talk) 03:28, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Malleus is wankin' and you're mentioning skinny girls on diets? Where is this headed? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:52, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
We don't even have soap according to the Australians. "Hide the cutlery Sheila, I smell a soap dodger approaching." I suppose they felt they had to get their own back for us deporting them all though. ;-) --Malleus Fatuorum 03:15, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Actually Malleus it was all an evil plot to get you to disclose your sex life. Tosspot means drunkard. Fainites scribs 09:59, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Oh, I see ... now Malleus is calling me a drunkard. That's what I get for indulging on his page ! Next he'll call me SandyChillin. Reading further on this thread, I detect a grand scheme between PoD and Malleus to avoid April 1, 2011. Serious 1b issues remain at tosspot.
  1. Why did the Brits have the need to collect said bodily fluids in a pot?
  2. Were they afraid to dispose of all of their future heirs?
  3. Don't they know those tailed little buggers die quickly?
  4. Was there an alternate use for the contents of the pot?
  5. What became of the contents once the pot was full?
Inquiring minds want to know. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:01, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
That sounds like the witchcraft talking, Sandy. --Moni3 (talk) 14:05, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
I've responded here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:45, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
The edit seems fair, just the edit summary is broken. We know (with moderate WP:V) that a number of people were executed. We have no real evidence for how many of them were witches. The history of witch burnings (and one reason why it's so misogynistic, in comparison to burning heretics) is that it was often used as a way of murdering someone in a dispute over property, and the targets of this were disproportionately women. Alleging witchcraft was a good way to remove a widow and capture a "rightful" inheritance. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:19, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
If the law decided they were witches, then they were witches. Otherwise that woman who lives in Buckingham Palace isn't a Queen. Parrot of Doom 13:46, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Maybe Gordon Brown should make an formal apology and give them a postumous pardon - hold on though, would they still be witches then? He could then give their decendants some compensation as they probably haven't got a pot to toss in. If someone was convicted of homosexual practises when that was illegal does that make them a queen? Richerman (talk) 14:19, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
There was a quotation I had to take out of the Pendle witches article at FAC along the lines that "to the modern mind, witchcraft is a crime that doesn't exist". Nevertheless, to the 17th century mind of King James I it most certainly did exist, and a substantial number of those executed as witches considered themselves to be witches, Alizon Device among those hanged at Lancaster. Although there have been efforts to obtain pardons for at least some of those convicted of witchcraft, the official government view is that it is inappropriate to pardon those tried and convicted under the laws of their time. So these unfortunates found guilty of witchcraft and executed for witchcraft, are still considered to be witches. In much the same way that St Augustine is considered a saint I suppose. Once again, to a modern mind the idea of sainthood is absurd, or it ought to be. I do know that the Swiss government granted a pardon to Anna Göldi, executed in 1782, the last person in Europe to be executed for witchcraft on the basis of her haviing being tried illegally, but nothing similar has happened here, or looks likely to happen, despite periodic campaigns. --Malleus Fatuorum 15:29, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Something that always needs hammering home - especially to people who don't have the same cultural context - is just how ingrained witchcraft and witchery is in European culture. While some of these trials were "persecution of the local crazy old lady", a lot of the witches genuinely believed in what they were doing; the same cultural phenomenon lives on in the US as Louisiana Voodoo. Remember, the last successful (for the the prosecution) witchcraft trial in Britain was that of Jane Rebecca Yorke in 1944 (not Helen Duncan, despite what most sources say), well within living memory. That said, the authorities in Britain formally ceased to recognise witchcraft as real with the Witchcraft Act 1735. – iridescent 19:24, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
The 17th century was a complicated time in England, in no small part because because of the religious turmoil that was going on at that time, as you know. Some of the "spells" that witches were accused of using were actually quite well-known Catholic prayers, and as you say, many did actually believe that they were witches, although not in the caricatured "flying on broomsticks" kind of way, which even King James dismissed as nonsense. I gave the example of Alizon Device earlier, who was quite convinced at her trial that she was responsible for the stroke John Law suffered after their altercation. The English experience of witchcraft was quite different from the European one though I think, and there just doesn't seem to have been the appetite for hunting witches in England– incidents like Matthew Hopkins were unusual. Reading the account of the Lancashire witch trials, in particular the the trial of the Samlesbury witches, makes it evident that "witchcraft" had rather little to do with what was going on. Recusansy and being seen to do something about it were at least as important I think.
Those later trials you mention (Yorke and Duncan) are interesting too though, and deserve a bit more work than has been put into them so far. They weren't convicted of witchcraft though, but of pretending to be "witches", which is rather a strange crime in itself. --Malleus Fatuorum 20:01, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
All English witchcraft convictions post 1735 were for pretending to be witches; once the Witchcraft Act 1735 had passed, the state (and hence the church) formally recognised that witchcraft didn't exist, so the convictions were always either for fraud or vagrancy. ("Pretending to be witches" isn't that odd a concept. Go down to your local Psychick Fayre or Spiritualist church, or read the small-ads in FT, and you'll see people claiming all kinds of dubious powers. – iridescent 20:08, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
PS: Moni, so glad to see I'm not the only one who likes The Visitors. The title track and Day Before You Came are IMO the greatest work Abba ever did. – iridescent 20:09, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
I agree with you. "The Day Before You Came" is hypnotic. --Moni3 (talk) 20:11, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Speaking of witches...

Ahem, no offence to the ladies above! <Drops hat>...Any interest in a collab on a fairly harsh condemnation of the political motives and exploitation of popular superstition that lead to thoes trials. I've been building it up for a few weeks, though it has not come together for me yet. Its necessarly an ugly article, my hope is that by the time it is finished (about a month) it will be a proper eye sore. Nay worries if you are preoccupied, I'm just chancing my arm here. Ceoil 21:06, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

That's shaping up to be a lovely little article. Unfortunately I'm not any kind of an expert on either art or European witchcraft, but I'd be happy to help out where I can. I see the article already mentions the Spanish Inquisition, so that's a good start. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 21:13, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Lovely? Eh, thanks I suppose! I might ask you for help with a c/e at some stage if thats ok.
No problem. One thing that struck me immediately is that the lead images are a bit too wide. I'm on a widescreen laptop, but even so the images covered more area than the text did. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:20, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

burning witches etc.

  • I am not following things closely, but I keep seeing witchcraft mentioned here. I once read an article in a scholarly journal that retold an anecdote... from my vague memory... during some plague or other, a scholar was walking down the street and wiped something off his hands onto the wall of a house. It was probably ink, but someone reported him as a witch who was cursing households. He was arrested, horribly tortured and killed. I might be able to find that anecdote again, if it interests. • Ling.Nut 02:04, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Certainly sounds interesting. What I think is obvious is that hardly anyone really believed in witchcraft in the way we understand that term today, but it was often used as a device. As in the case of poor Anna Göldi. --Malleus Fatuorum 02:12, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Ireland

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Okay, can we hose this down and close this thread now? Everyone back to their corners. :/ Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:52, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

No wonder all of the Irish articles are absolute shite. --Malleus Fatuorum 03:00, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

And you wonder why I worry about english people aiming for FA on Ni topics when by there own admision they though the ceasefire begun in 1974 and admit they are unfamiliar with the sources. Revert all you want, but such arrogance. You have no idea how offensive that is. Forget civ, fine you bastard. Jesus christ, I'm only asking for wider sourcing! Ceoil 03:24, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Is that a euphemism for a week's block? --Fred the Oyster (talk) 03:42, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
I would have been if I'd said it, still who said life was fair? --Malleus Fatuorum 03:53, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
You motherfucker. I didn't just dream it up and type it out myself. You said No wonder all of the Irish articles are absolute shite- I saw it, and your casual, louche, dismissal betrays you. A relaxed statement like who said life was fair only comes from the knowlingly secure and smug. And who the hell is Fred the Oyster anyway. who said life was fair; ie you just fucked me and you know it. Somebody is oversighting here. Ceoil 04:08, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

You are both banished to the nearest pub; get drunk, chase women, and send chocolates tomorrow. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:23, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

No, there is something more strange here. A deeply racist edit by him was oversighted within 10 minutes, and he laughed at my mentionioning it, brazenly. I dont just see things; its a bit odd, prob woth a sock inv. Ceoil 04:39, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Ceoil: I don't see Malleus denying having said that (nor do I see signs of oversighting; the edit is still there). To my eyes, Malleus was replying to Fred; his "if I'd said it" meant "if I'd said the paragraph Ceoil said above" . No comment on the whole sorry incident itself, but let's not let a misunderstanding make it worse. Maralia (talk) 05:01, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Thats all fine, Fred and MF can play clever in front of me if it gets them off, whatever; but what about No wonder all of the Irish articles are absolute shite. Its not something that invented itself. My quote above is a cut and paste; but it dissapeared. Jeepers. Ceoil 05:14, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
It's still there ... ??? On the talk page ... in the "Are we ready now" section. Unless I'm missing something. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:18, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
(ec) I don't understand why you think it disappeared or was oversighted; the diff is still accessible and you can see it still remains in the current version by searching on 'shite'. Maralia (talk) 05:19, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
I think I see what happened now, and the misunderstanding is understandable, since Ceoil might not know Malleus's history with blocking by the civility police,thought the edit was removed, and thought Malleus's "who said life was fair" was a snub at Ceoil for an oversighted edit ... we have a big misundersanding here ... back to the pub now ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:36, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
They most certainly are not all shite! U2 is humming along quite nicely, thank you! ;-) Why don't you both have a pint of lager on me? MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 05:37, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
O Maralia, then if he did say it and I was not able to find it again, my apologies, I am thick. The article is hugley lacking historical distance and has the insight of The Sun, but fine, if he persists, I have to deal with a petulant child who will offer the dread of his withdrawl from GAN and insults at my nationality. What a boring waste of time. No wonder all of the Irish articles are absolute shite. Good man, what a guy. Ceoil 05:36, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
You are indeed thick. Now go away and sober up. --Malleus Fatuorum 05:40, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Ah, the old one are the best ones. Any other ammo in you bag beyond racial sterotypes? I see no substance in either argument or wit so far, MF, just insults. Grand, whatever. Ceoil 06:11, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Ah, is this the sort of wit you're referring to? --Fred the Oyster (talk) 11:52, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
No. Fred. That would be anger. Dont be confusing the two to make an easy pop shot. Ceoil 12:25, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps in your case an Alco-pop? --Fred the Oyster (talk) 12:26, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
What? O yeah funny. Fuck off and mind you own business you snide twerp. Go back to your non contribs.. You are a wiki butterfly. Ceoil 12:28, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
I can't help thinking that this is a case of an Irishman being good with a shovel. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 12:36, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Request for help

I am will shortly be posting to WP:AN with the request below. Any support would be appreciated.

Request to WP:AN

"I would like to take the article History of logic to FA. I have already sought input from a number of contributors and have cleared up the issues raised (I am sure there are more). I wrote nearly all of the article using different accounts, as follows:

I would like to continue this work but I am frustrated by the zealous activity of User:Fram who keeps making significant reverts, and blocking accounts wherever he suspects the work of a 'banned user'. (Fram claims s/he doesn't understand "the people who feel that content is more important than anything else").

Can I please be left in peace with the present account to complete this work. 'History of logic' is a flagship article for Misplaced Pages, and is an argument against those enemies who claim that nothing serious can ever be accomplished by the project". Logic Historian (talk) 10:03, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Bloody stupid. What's more important, a technical detail that can't be enforced anyway or improving an important article? That's a rhetorical question btw. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:06, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I am going to pretend that I don't know what rhetorical means and say that I don't think the community making a decision that someone is no longer welcome here to be a technical detail. It is the duty of admins to enforce such community decisions, otherwise the community would be without recourse towards persistently disruptive users. Chillum 22:12, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

It is the duty of every editor to act in the best interests of Misplaced Pages. That means improving articles or creating an environment in which that could happen. Peter had stated that he just wanted to work on history of logic. This is a cock up to be expected of a bureaucracy where common sense is discouraged. Nev1 (talk) 22:15, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
I prefer to follow common sense, not the supposed decisions made by a mythical community. You know as well as I do that there is no way at all to enforce blocks or bans, thery're just pointless willy waving. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:16, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
An interesting hypothesis, I hope you never try to test it as I really do appreciate your content contributions to our project. Chillum 22:22, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Oh dear, more veiled threats already. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:31, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

No hidden code there, I was being sincere. Regardless, good day. Chillum 22:33, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

How many times have you said that on this page? Pardon me if I'm wrong but hasn't Malleus repeatedly requested that you not post here? Parrot of Doom 22:35, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Trial stuff

With your experience on Witch stuff, I wondered how you'd go about summarising a trial. The issue I have (and I've raised this on Richerman's page) is that Moore (1994), while apparently a very thorough piece of scholarship, is more interested in presenting the facts of Elizabeth Canning's perjury trial in minute detail, rather than telling a story. This makes it difficult to pick out a narrative, and to work out exactly when things were said and done (although I know exactly who said and did them). So is it acceptable simply to present a week-long trial as a summary, with "x said this, y said that, etc"? I think if I tried to present it chronologically, my brain would explode, but that would surely be the more acceptable solution from a scholarly point of view? Parrot of Doom 21:08, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Accounts of trials tend to be pretty tedious I think. I prefer to summarise (dates, defence and prosecution barristers, judge, how long the jury deliberated and so on) and just pick out anything significant or that paints a picture. Like 9-year-old Jennet Device being placed on a table to give evidence against her mother, or well-known addresses to the court before sentencing. I like to try and paint a picture rather than relate all of the tedious detail– anyone who cares about the detail can go to the source– but what do I know; I write like a journalist for The Sun apparently. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:59, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
This article is a mess, but here's an interesting address to the magistrates before sentencing which turned out to be a hoax. You don't write like a tabloid journalist! Truthkeeper88 (talk) 22:11, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
That is indeed a truly dreadful article. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:30, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Yep, it is. Plenty of work to be done around here... Truthkeeper88 (talk) 22:39, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Tabloid journalists are pretty good are expressing points clearly and concisely. Fortunately Malleus also checks his facts and reasoning. --Philcha (talk) 23:19, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
In some respects I don't mind being compared to a tabloid journalist; they at least make stuff look interesting. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:19, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
The expense account is pretty cool too! --Fred the Oyster (talk) 01:21, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Cool beans

World peace, and all that other good stuff! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:48, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Matching your beans
NOW you're getting frisky, Fred ... hold the oysters! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:41, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
You obviously haven't heard the "Fred the Oyster" sound effect from the Goon Show :p --Fred the Oyster (talk) 01:43, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
There must be a YouTube! Since I'm so "exercised", maybe I should watch one LOL !!! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:48, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm surprised, I can't find one. As I've piqued your interest I shall get one sorted for tomorrow. I think it could even be a fair use ogg for the Goon Show article. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 01:55, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Harrrrumph, you already spoiled one party today-- you ruined my joke at ANI. Are you trying to grow up and be like Malleus, who took down my best joke thread ever (he hates it when I remind him of that, so I'm doing it for fun ... MF, silly hat on !!) ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:08, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Which joke was that? It was hard to differentiate due to the amount of joking coming from the other parties.--Fred the Oyster (talk) 03:33, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Way back when he called me a "slag", and I had to look it up, then I started a poll to find out which kind of slag. He removed my poll just as I was setting up a trail ten pages deep to get The Fat Man to come and vote! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:35, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I think I was probably joking when I called you a slag SandyG, ;-) and I'm sure that when Ceoil called me a cunt yesterday he was speaking in the heat of the moment. No harm done, sticks and stones. --Malleus Fatuorum 04:46, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
If one of you called me the "C" word, I'd probably get out a mirror and report back to you on the status of said apparatus ... now, for Chillum or Shankbone, I'd say far worse things to them in Spanish, and they'd never know what hit 'em :) :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:50, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Hey, Malleus, next time you get blocked, can you please not make it on a Saturday when I was reading FAC? Can we not find a way to get admins to take Saturdays off? I'm going to sleep ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:55, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to see all of them suspended until they can pass a basic common sense test. --Malleus Fatuorum 05:01, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Blocked

This sort of attack isn't appropriate. I have blocked you for 24 hours. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:19, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Someone told me to watchlist this page because it housed drama, but that comment by itself was pretty pedestrian to win a block over. Perhaps I missed out on juicier stuff. Oh well.--Milowent (talk) 03:21, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Now that is really taking the piss, especially given the accuracy of the statement. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 03:27, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
On the surface, this block seems to be of the utmost of assness, Ten. Seriously. Bad. Block. In my non-editing-on-a-regular-basis opinion. What happened to civil warnings? Seems really pretentious, Mr TOAT. Keeper | 76 03:29, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Best part is, everyone knew Chillum would do this ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:30, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Unblocked. Because I need more crap. --Moni3 (talk) 03:33, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
You beat me to it by a few seconds. Anyway, fully support unblock. --Andy Walsh (talk) 03:35, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm not an admin, but plenty of us are tired of seeing Malleus as a whack-a-mole target, while admins themselves commit worse abuses. Chillum did not need to take it upon himself to revert all those edits, when they were clearly under discussion at AN/I ... it was an unnecessary provocation. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:45, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

You win, you are more stubborn than I am determined. Being abused by drive by trolls and single purpose accounts is one thing, but when the abuse is sanctioned and protected from rebuke by admins then that is to much. I am going to spend time on a project that does not endorse abusing its members. I hope you are proud Malleus, you have often said Misplaced Pages would be better without me and now you have your wish. Please know Malleus that is it not you who gets the credit for this, but rather those who enable you to do this. Chillum 03:53, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Bye. Keeper | 76 03:54, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
HOly moly, we're to rage quit in record time!!--Milowent (talk) 03:56, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
We should make an "I've quit, this place sucks, fuck everyone" template to save time. With an option for "I'll be back in three days when I've calmed down". Tan | 39 04:01, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Good idea. BTW. I'm still blocked. Have you all thrown me to the wolves? --Malleus Fatuorum 04:04, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Moni didn't remove the autoblock. Done. Tan | 39 04:07, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. --Malleus Fatuorum 04:10, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Agree with block. Moni3 is not a disinterested or objective editor when it comes to Malleus. She is misusing her tools once again to unblock a chronically uncivil editor who does much to lower the tone on wikipedia. I am not an admin, but I am plenty tired of seeing Malleus get away with murder (so to speak) and driving awayt other editors. As an editor that was driven away by barbs, attacks and harassments by Malleus, I see this as a sorry day in the history of blocking. It is too bad. The endless persecution crusades against Chillum should cease, if there is any decency in (or on) wikipedia. Talking image (talk) 04:05, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Malleus, now you're whack-a-mole and the socking-editors-attack target of the month! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:10, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I find the whole thing incomprehensible, but then I'm not an infallible administrator. --Malleus Fatuorum 04:14, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Are you sure Malleus? There is nothing in the block log, and I can't find autoblocks. Ucucha 04:08, 7 March 2010 (UTC) Tan removed it just while I was looking - speaking of coordination. Ucucha 04:09, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Maybe Chillum ... oh, never mind. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:10, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
(e/c re to User:Talking Image): Stating that someone is "misusing the tools" is a serious statement, especially with a "once again" attached. You got any diffs to support your ridiculous accusation against a well-established editor, Mr. Talking Image? I doubt you do, just a personal beef against an editor that likely told you "how it is" somewhere along the way, to which you took offense. Seems your accusations would be blockable per your own standards of civility and fairness, no? Keeper | 76 04:11, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Keeper, you're talking to a duck (quack, quack) ...I've filed the alert. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:18, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I was just about to say the same thing. When will she ever give up? --Malleus Fatuorum 04:20, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Um, never :) But we all knew that long ago :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:24, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I've been gone awhile, forgive me for not noticing the unmistakable mallard noises :-) Keeper | 76 04:25, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
There's some sort of initiative about blocking going on. I dunno if it's good or bad, but if prevents moronic blocks such as the above, it's OK. • Ling.Nut 04:23, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Morons do what morons do. but what advice has been offered to User:TenOfAllTrades so that he may improve his lamentable performance in the future? None? There's a very profound dishonesty on display here; Chillum's apparent retirement can only be a step in the right direction. --Malleus Fatuorum 04:33, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Well, let's just hope that it's not just the one step eh? Journey of a 1000 miles and all that... --Fred the Oyster (talk) 04:36, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I gave advice that editors who disagree with you and are upset by your comments should talk to you. I hope you're open to that, Malleus. --Moni3 (talk) 04:49, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm open to talking, so long as it isn't baby-talk like "You've upset my friend, I'm going to block you now". --Malleus Fatuorum 14:48, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
No, that's not what I envisioned. Something perhaps slightly less nuclear than what you and Ceoil had it out about the other day. I am always surprised to see the ways guys, and when appropriate, boys, work out their disagreements. Bad words, a few flying fists, and then handshakes all around with me standing by going, "Wtf just happened?" Women, and when appropriate, girls, will either stick loyally right by you and cry, scream, and hug a dozen times to settle a disagreement, or carry on a clandestine campaign of silent but dangerous reputation assassination that you will have never seen coming. I'm for something in the middle (a shock, I know). A confrontation, tense words, back off a bit, see where the other person is coming from, then handshake or hug it out. If you can't seem to agree on anything, then separate corners. --Moni3 (talk) 15:10, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Men will be boys. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:39, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I wonder how depressed Chillum will be when his flounce off into the sunset doesn't attract as many supportive comments as MF's block. Anyway, for someone griping about grade school I really can't see them giving up the perceived kudos, cachet and power that the admin bit brings. He'll be back in a few hours/days, if we're really unlucky that is. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 04:27, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Careful, Fred. Hurtful comments like that could keep him away for a week or more. Keeper | 76 04:28, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Golly; wouldn't want that, would we? HalfShadow 04:37, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Wait, no. What's the opposite of wouldn't again? HalfShadow 04:39, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Italy, scooters and ice cream

The "Grade School" comment says a hell of a lot to me. Parrot of Doom 09:07, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I suggest we all forget Chillum and move on. If he returns, I hope he will have learnt that sanctimonious self-righteous hectoring and lecturing is not the way to treat people. I also hope that those who think like him will now stop and realise that such attitudes are unwelcome here, we are intelligent adults and can all handle some criticism especially that dished out in the heat of the moment. I am begining to think that before being able to edit[REDACTED] editors should be made to drive a car on the streets of Rome for a day, in this way they would quickly learn to differentiate between abuse and incivility and grow a thicker skin. In other words, learn to shrug their shoulders and get on with the important things in life.  Giano  13:43, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Oh, great, I'm in like flint! Does driving a car in Rome, Milan, et al in addition to Buenos Aires and Caracas make me an automatic arb? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:59, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I've never driven in Rome,but I have driven in Paris. Does that count? --Malleus Fatuorum 14:19, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Only to those who like Paris. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:27, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Stars Are Blind wasn't too bad, but the rest... Meh! --Fred the Oyster (talk) 14:38, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I think Paris is great, and I like being able to practise my fractured French on a population who will not be shy about telling you when you've got it wrong. I meant Paris, France though, not Paris, Texas, which I'm sure would scare the shit out of me like the rest of small town America. Did you know that the land of the free has the world's highest percentage of its population in jail? --Malleus Fatuorum 14:32, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
PS. Over the last couple of days a few editors have compared me to you Giano, perhaps sometimes thinking that was an insult. For myself, I consider it to be a great compliment. You and I appear to be treading the same path in our different ways, but you are way ahead of me. --Malleus Fatuorum 14:26, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I was involved in that comparison. It was intended as a compliment. Ceoil 14:40, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Not at all, I am just a better driver than you Malleus.  Giano  14:56, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
That isn't saying so much Giano, but I have survived driving through the centre of Tunis though. The standard tour rep joke is "many people ask if there's a driving test in Tunisia, and if there is, does anyone have to take it before getting a licence?" --Malleus Fatuorum 15:08, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Take a trip to Italy, MF; the driving experience will be helpful in your Wiki travails. Take Giano's word to heart :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:10, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I've been to Italy a few times, but only to ski. I have fond memories of a drunken evening in Tonale, involving plastic bin bags and a race down the piste on our backsides onto the (thankfully quiet) road below. Good times. --Malleus Fatuorum 15:20, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Actually I think that may have been our first ever ski trip thinking back, and it showed the difference between the Italian and French attitude. Our Italian instructor was more concerned with showing off and getting back to the bar asap, whereas most of the French instructors we've had concentrated on abusing their pupils. On one course a lovely German lady was given the nickname "Mrs Fall Over" for instance. --Malleus Fatuorum 15:42, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
As a student, I was a ski-instructor for a very brief and unsuccessful period, perhaps it was me? At that age, I had a scooter in Rome - one learns to drive with one hand on the thigh of the girl on the back (for safety reasons) and the other hand gesticulating obscenely to other motorists. It's a beautiful, happy, sunny country and people take insults in their stride with a shrug. I do seriously think it is mostly Americans who take things so personally and literally. Life is too short to worry about such things.  Giano  15:48, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I think you're right. (I've had a couple of Lambrettas myself, so I know what you mean about safety.) The problem is the Americans, or at least the ones who live in the back of beyond. Drive round any big city and you'll see people shouting, hooting their horns at each other, using their hands and fingers in sometimes quite inventive ways ... c'est la vie. --Malleus Fatuorum 16:03, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Yep, I think Chillum need to get a scooter and roar off into the sunset with a girl on the back see the world for a year ot two.  Giano  16:05, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Come on, Giano, I live in Sicily. Go try calling someone a cornuto in Palermo, or worse, Catania and see how it's taken in stride.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:07, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
That why you only swear when the scooter is in gear.  Giano  16:15, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Is Sicily italian? I though it was Mafia. --Malleus Fatuorum 16:10, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Did I miss a good scoop? I didn't know Chillum was cornuto-- I resemble that remark. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:11, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm a bit puzzled as to why anyone would think being compared to a rather delicious ice cream was an insult. --Malleus Fatuorum 16:10, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Just the one...? --Fred the Oyster (talk) 16:31, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

It's not the same as a spumoni Malleus! What does Jeanne Boleyn know that we do not? Perhaps that's why Chillum is always so cross.  Giano  16:19, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Giano, can you please take Malleus under the custody of your protective wings? I am very worried about any man who confuses cornuto with ice cream :) Let's deal with the Education of Malleus, please :) And, please, just why would someone named Jeanne know that Chillum is cornuto unless she ... ummmm ... was there ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:22, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
My grandmother and all the other old ladies in Palermo view American ladies with deep suspicion - all that make-up and big white teeth, very predatory, now she is being whisked off by Chillum on a scooter around the Quattro Canti, it can only end in tears.  Giano  16:31, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I know lots of Venezuelans who succumb to the same Hollywood characterization of American women as your grandmother. I scream, you scream, we all scream for ice cream. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:33, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Does cornuto have anything to do with shirt lifting? --Malleus Fatuorum 16:36, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Not usually, no!  Giano  16:46, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

USA, pictures, and Sicilian "business"

Americans couldn't fit on scooters Parrot of Doom 16:41, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Brilliant! --Malleus Fatuorum 16:43, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Go to the shop and get the film. It is hysterically funny, tragic, intelligent, and thought-provoking, all in one. Oh, and this happens. Parrot of Doom 17:00, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
That's one of the funniest things I've seen for ages. Must get hold of that film. "You Yankee fucking cunt" is a bit incivil though isn't it? --Malleus Fatuorum 17:04, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
You know you're just the rudest man. THE RUDEST MAN! Parrot of Doom 17:06, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
While I'm really happy that y'all are having so much fun, those videos are blocked on the prudish side of the pond. At any rate, whatever they say about American women, I declare myself exempt. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:07, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Search YT for "In Bruges fat americans" and "In Bruges vietnam" Parrot of Doom 17:11, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

It's something I always worry about if I find an empty seat next to me when boarding a flight in an out of the USA

My skinny white American derriere refuses to be insulted by uninformed Brits and Italians. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:44, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I am sure you a slim and chic and most of your compatriots think you are Italian.  Giano  16:46, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
HA, we're even! I always worry about the empty seat next to me being filled by an Italian with presuppositions about American women ... I have sooooo much fun playing with them ... makes the flight go so much faster :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:53, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Was that you going into O' Hare from Fiumicino last Wednesay? We must do that gain.  Giano  17:08, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I always travel incognito, refuse to disclose my bio to every man in a bar who wants the lowdown; did we make the mile-high club? Better still, just why did you fly to Chicago from Fiumicino, bypassing JFK? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:40, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Let's just say, I had "business" - Sicilian business!  Giano  17:49, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I think that's Italian for "no mile high club"; wasn't me! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:55, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Pictures? Returning to the subject of scooters, one of my passions as an ex Mod, have you ever been to an Islamic country? Women have to sit on the back side-saddle, as to have anything but their husbands between their legs would be a sin. Astonishing the rubbish some people believe. --Malleus Fatuorum 16:49, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Pictures? I'll leave it to Moni to supply fodder for your imagination. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:53, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Here's Sandy in the background while I was extolling the virtues of rum with...Karanacs. Mrs. Moni rides a scooter. Me and my sizable ass borne of generations of potato-eating Irish scullery maids ride on the back sometimes because it's fun. It's not as alarming here as say, the driving conditions in Madrid, which often made me sink into the back of the taxi and try to ignore what was going on outside. --Moni3 (talk) 17:01, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Darn, forgot to mention I've driven in Madrid, too. Does that mean I'm the new Jimbo? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:04, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Giano, you know that Italian men prefer their women (both mstresses and wives) to be formose and in carne. Which was why the slim, chic Carla Bruni had to go to France to search for talent.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:52, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Nonna, I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but your caro bambino had business in the good ole US of A. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:04, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
How do you explain the most beautiful woman on the planet then? --Malleus Fatuorum 18:04, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Ahhhhh! mia nonna.  Giano  18:59, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Even the most beautiful woman on the planet cut her eyes at more buxom lasses, especially when such lasses had frequent wardrobe malfunctions. I love this image as it illustrates my above points about the way women disagree, or illustrates the fluidity of sexuality. I think it's a bit of both. Moni3 (talk) 18:14, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
That's the "For God Sakes, girl, with tits like that, can't you get a better designer?" look. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:16, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I think American Megan Fox would have given Ms Loren a run for her money had she been around in the 50s. Now that is beautiful! And Dita Von Teese isn't too bad either.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:22, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I notice our Giano is rather quiet.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:24, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I suspect, Nonna, that he cares so much for you, and is terribly embarrassed tht you discovered him lusting after American women. By the way, Nonna: what nationality is Chillum? Maybe you can assuage some of Giano's guilt by confessing all. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:33, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Sandy, that's on the surface, a scornful comment to get a better designer, but underneath it's ""My powers are useless against all that cleavage! Such soft bulbous so full...feeling odd...that tramp. I want her. I want to beat the shit out of her." It's all so very complex. Yet simple. --Moni3 (talk) 18:26, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Nah, it's the "could my designer make the same mistake, so I can keep up and quit wasting my cleavage" look. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:30, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I'd rather be Anita Pallenberg than Sophia. The latter never got to screw Keith Richards.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:32, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
You say that like screwing Keith Richards is A Good Thing. Nonna, you are a devil ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:34, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Bedda, don't forget the canoli!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:42, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

(wakes up, rubs eyes) wow, I'd never even noticed that scene is the wire as anything unusual when I watched it the first time round. Very funny :) ...and yes, the best TV series ever made Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:19, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Unlike the TV shows of middle England --Fred the Oyster (talk) 19:26, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Calling a spade a shovel

Malleus, which one is you? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:37, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure? Shovel doesn't sound much like a name? meanwhile in another part of the galaxy. which one is MF and which one is Ceoil? --Fred the Oyster (talk) 17:44, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Ceoil is the cute one. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:48, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Giano, you know that Italian men prefer their women to be formose and in carne.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:50, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
As opposed to poste petit morte? --Fred the Oyster (talk) 17:54, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I don't know about Ceoil, that looks more like Chillum. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 17:52, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm the one in bed saying "turn the fucking light off". By a strange coincidence one of my brothers had his stag weekend in Brussels, and we spent the Saturday in Bruges. Well, in a brewery in Bruges anyway. I believe there was a town nearby, but we never saw it. --Malleus Fatuorum 17:54, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Just to do a little national promotion of the easy use of "fuck", best TV show in years did its take on the use of the word within a single scene. --Moni3 (talk) 18:20, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Now we know that the male vocabulary includes one other word "pow". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:27, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
You missed a lot in Bruges, but Ghent is better. Boat jousting! Don't get wet.
Varlaam (talk) 18:28, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I always wanted to trump Moni. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:39, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
What it needs is a proper system of censorship Fainites scribs 23:24, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

The Joy of Blocking

I got blocked last weekend in Welsh WP for correcting a page error that the Welsh sys admin, it turned out, personally favoured.
He blocked me for 1 year. For correcting an actual error, according to external verifiable sources.
When I asked the English sys admin community for some advice or guidance or direction in this matter, as to whom I might raise this issue with, one of them shut down my question, declaring it to be Resolved. No response, but Resolved regardless.
Then I got threatened with blocking for still seeking a response, even a "Sorry, we can't help you" response.
Cheers, Varlaam (talk) 17:34, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I got blocked once because I criticized a vandal. Go figure.

Was is it a North Welsh admin?  Giano  17:39, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm in Canada. My Welsh relations are in the south.
I assume you are asking, Was he a native Welsh-speaking nationalist? Absolutely, I had wandered into a Welsh nationalist minefield without realizing it.
Varlaam (talk) 17:50, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
No, just personal interest, nothing to do with nationalism, I have always found that the South Welsh are easier to get on with then the North - probably just me.  Giano  18:54, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
The English sys admins automatically sided with the Welshman without hearing anything about the circumstances.
Circumstances are always irrelevant. I am merely some stupid user with a rhodium star.
It's the accent that does it... the southern Welsh have a much less annoying accent. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 17:45, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
  • I think it was I that told you that we really can't help you. That's because English Misplaced Pages administrators really can't help you. At http://cy.wikipedia.org, enwiki admins are just regular editors with 0 edits. You could try asking the stewards if you want though. NW (Talk) 17:49, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Several admins were sympathetic. Others were boorish and dismissive.
There seemed to be disagreement as to whether stewards would be of assistance.
So I just went to the top as I am accustomed to doing from my IMDb experience.
Varlaam (talk) 17:53, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Over here, we debate about whether "incivility" (guys are going to clash with each other, we're guys) warrants a 24-hour block, or not.
When I got blocked, I got blocked by a girl admin who butted into my chat with Mr. Vandal.
Over there in Wales, fixing an error gets a 1-year block, and he blocked me from editing my talk page and his as well, and the English sys admins are like, "Well, you deserved it, and we don't know anything about WP standards, structure, hierarchy, we're just a bunch of administrators, why expect anything from us."
Varlaam (talk) 18:04, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Over here, wilful page vandalism will get you 8 or 10 mild-mannered warnings in a row.
But don't you dare get uncivil.
Varlaam (talk) 18:11, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

He's forum shopping, folks. This complaint is recycled from a week ago: he had already been referred to the stewards (before he had reopened a second ANI thread to re-complain) until someone looked up his Welsh Misplaced Pages contributions and turned up the real reason for his one year block there. Entertaining reading, if one needs a diversion. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive600#Help_with_another_language_of_WP and Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive600#Unhelpful_sys_admins_who_dismiss_simple_questions_that_could_be_answered_in_a_second. Durova 22:42, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Jesus Christ. I am not fucking forum shopping. I. am. not. fucking. forum. shopping. Is that sufficiently clear?
(Thank you for your help last week, Durova. I haven't had a chance to follow up.)
I am attempting to speak to another user like myself who I have spoken to previously.
Why are other users reading my private fucking communications?
Do you open other people's bloody mail as well? Jesus.
And what real reason are you referring to?
1) I was fixing a POV page by bringing it into conformity with the IMDb.
2) I was making it NPOV. Isn't that what all of us, sys admins included, are supposed to be doing around here?
3) I had earlier been attacked by an IP user who reverted my corrections.
4) Then the Welsh sys admin accused me of making POV changes.
5) Well, obviously, he was in error, since I was doing just the opposite.
6) Obviously, he had misread the log and confused me with the POV-pushing IP user.
You are welcome to reread the history -- a little more closely this time please -- since I am 100% in the right in this matter.
100%.
That page in Welsh WP is still wrong, and what have you done to correct it? Nothing. It's up to us users to do the heavy lifting around here apparently.
And not everybody was in agreement that the stewards were the correct people to whom to refer a problem of this type, this gross misuse of authority by a Welsh sys admin with a private agenda.
I got into this in the first place because I was working on my WP page that covers films about poets. I was working on a poet movie. The most innocuous topic in the world, you would think. If I had known all this was going to happen, I would have said, Fuck the stupid Welsh poet movie, I really don't give a shit.
Cheers, Varlaam (talk) 09:07, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

What the Hell is going on here?

New day, new clown. Will it never end? --Malleus Fatuorum 05:39, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Think of the average man in the street, and remember that perhaps 50% of the rest of the country is more stupid than he. Parrot of Doom 08:36, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
You said it, brother.
So how are you doing anyway?
Varlaam (talk) 09:09, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Is your page normally like this?
You were the subject of a great deal of controversy over in admin land, so I thought I should drop you another friendly note.
Apparently you can't do that around here.
Varlaam (talk) 09:18, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
(I'm the one who speaks Latin.)

You might ease up just a tad Malleus. You are often correct and put up with an awful lot of nonsense here, but not everyone who disagrees with you is a jester. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:25, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Not everyone who disagrees with me is right either, and often they are just as "incivil" as they accuse me of being, if not frequently more so. I've never been one to be shy about telling somebody they're talking complete cack; if they consider the truth to be rude or incivil that's their problem, not mine. Perhaps if more people did the same we might at last begin to see a reduction in the amount of bullshit we see around here. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:38, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
There are those advocating for bullshit to be the fuel we run things on. I don't think it qualifies as "clean", but it's renewable. I see Misplaced Pages as something of a trial run for this effort. :) But seriously, I'm not intending to antagonize you or to call you out, but I did want to remind you that not everyone who disagrees with you is an oblivious moron. :) Sometimes disputes are just expressions of reasonable differences of opinion. And I freely acknowledge that you are "right" more often than not. But don't let your frequent dealings with boobs influence you towards being fresh with those who aren't complete asses. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:35, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Fair comment. Stumbling from one problem to the next it's hard to approach each one without just a little residue of the last. Just over the past week I've been blocked, bullied, insulted, and had to bite my tongue when others are allowed to make comments that would see me blocked again. So I'm a little jaundiced when someone comes waltzing into an old discussion on a witch trial article, for instance, objecting to the use of the word "witch" on the grounds that I'm a credulous old stick in the mud who shouldn't be so silly as to believe in witches. YMMV of course, but I when I see bullshit I call it bullshit rather than fannying around the bushes. That's just not going to change. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:14, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

April Fools

See here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:30, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Just seen it Sandy, thanks. The image Raul's chosen needs to have alt text written for it though. God, how I hate writing alt text! --Malleus Fatuorum 19:07, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Raul doesn't use alt text (shhhh ... don't tell Eubulides :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:09, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Your edit to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Cousins Properties

I've reverted your last edit (and Misterdiscreet's too), as the discussion is closed. --Explodicle (T/C) 20:05, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Fine. For some reason I didn't notice that it had been closed. --Malleus Fatuorum 20:11, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
If you're still in the mood for some AfD discussion for one that isn't closed... Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/P90X (2nd nomination)‎ --Fred the Oyster (talk) 20:14, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
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