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Titles in Infoboxes

Consider the following titles / honorifics I found in various infoboxes:

Genghis Khan: Dalai Khagan of the Great Mongol State (Supreme Khan of the Mongols), King of Kings, Khagan of Khamag Mongol, Lord of the Four Colors and Five Tongues, Son of Khan Tengri, Emperor of All Men.

Cyrus the Great: King of Persia, King of Āryāvarta, King of Anshan, King of Media, King of Babylon, King of Sumer and Akkad, King of the four corners of the World.

Alexander the Great: Basileus of Macedon.

Abraham: Prophet, Seer, Father of Multitudes, First Hebrew Patriarch, Holy Forefather, Ḥanīf, Friend of God, Possessor of Power and Vision, Constructor of the Kaaba.

Moses: Prophet, Lawgiver.

King David: King of Israel.

Jesus: (no title given)

It seems to me that some of the above are a bit excessive, but I could not find anything in MOS that mentions how many titles and honorifics we should pile on in an infobox. Is there a policy on this? --Guy Macon (talk) 14:52, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

If this refers to the honorific_prefix and honorific_suffix fields in the infobox:

It seems to me that such honorifics should be excluded if they are obscure, not widely used or referenced, or promote a POV of the subject's followers. Those associated with Moses probably have wide acceptance, or at least acknowledgment, among scholars that Moses is known historically as a prophet and lawgiver. Adding "Christ" to Jesus would likely not raise any eyebrows, but adding "Prince of Peace", "Lamb of God" or other POV titles wouldn't be acceptable.

In those examples above, I could see removing a few from Genghis Khan, Cyrus the Great, and Abraham.

Consider also that these infoboxes also have an "other names" field where some of these appellations may be more appropriate. ~Amatulić (talk) 15:31, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

You know, just a (slightly radical) thought here, but what we could be dealing with here is a case of article creep. In all of the infoboxes in question (including the one for he-who-must-not-be-named), I doubt very seriously (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) that all of those titles were added at once. What it probably is is that every so often an admirer of the subject adds a title to the infobox, and it sort of gets consensus by silence - nobody on these articles (I'm thinking particularly of Genghis Khan here) wants to waste time fighting over one title in the infobox, so it just sort of sits there, and the cycle repeats until we end up with what we have now.

My personal view on the subject is that infoboxes really shouldn't include titles and honorifics except where they are needed as clarifying elements. For instance, we don't need "Lamb of God" in the Jesus article because (first and foremost) it would constitute tacit endorsement of that title (i.e. religious - specifically Christian - POV), and (as relevant to what Amatulic said) nobody needs to see "Lamb of God" to know who Jesus was. I know that's a bit broad - and it doesn't address common appellations such as "prophet" or "Christ" or "King" - but this, I think, is a clear-cut case where we need to establish some type of continuity. I certainly wouldn't object to having "Christ" with Jesus or "prophet" with Muh.. I mean, that other guy. But can we really justify a need to include "Lord of the Four Colors and Five Tongues" with Genghis Khan - especially considering the fact that that particular title isn't even explained anywhere in the article? Sleddog116 (talk) 15:57, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Also (sorry for double post) - another thing to add here. If you look at the article on King David, you'll see that the article actually has two infoboxes. I think it may actually have the best solution. If you look at this section of the article, you'll see an infobox with a much more extensive list of titles. I don't object to that infobox staying as it is - because the section where it appears is a section specifically for religious views. In other words, the titles in that section's infobox describe how the various religions describe David. The juxtaposition is all-important here; if that same infobox appeared at the top of the page, it would be religious POV, but where it is, it is neutral because it does exactly what an infobox should do: it summarizes the religious views of David. Sleddog116 (talk) 16:06, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I decided to be WP:BOLD and cut down the titles for Genghis, Cyrus, and Abe. I wonder whether this will go unnoticed or generate howls of protest... What would be the best way to generate a list of the infoboxes with the longest strings of titles? --Guy Macon (talk) 17:43, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

This sounds like a content issue more than a style one. Maybe WP:BIOG would have an opinion about this. ― A. di M.​  20:51, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

On the contrary, I think it has become a content issue because the style has never been fully addressed. I like your suggestion, though; I think I'll leave a few friendly notices on some of the BIOG members' talk pages and see if we can generate some useful input here. Thanks for making those fixes, Guy. I was thinking of doing the same thing myself, but I just didn't have the guts, I guess. Sometimes I envy your chutzpah. Sleddog116 (talk) 13:45, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Agreed; in this case we have an infobox (a style) that is not well defined regarding its intended content. I question the value of any field in an infobox that invites POV laundry lists. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:12, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Just noting that at least a few articles on people who have been declared a saint or similar but are primarily notable for something else, have some sort of template in the related section of their article as well. I can't see any objections to having multiple infoboxes in articles, in different sections, so long as they don't take up too much space in each section and are relevant enough for inclusion. Regarding the inclusion of titles in the single top-of-page infobox, I would have serious trouble seeing any reason to include more than, say, two or three titles related titles in it, and probably only the one most important or notable title per related group if the person had multiple titles in multiple areas of endeavor. For titles which aren't already given separate sections in related infoboxes, like some of the politican infoboxes have, that would seem to me to be the best approach. John Carter (talk) 19:43, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I decided to be bold and fix the ones I could find. So far I have cut back the titles on Aaron, Augustine of Hippo, Elijah, Jerome, Jacob, John the Baptist, Jonah, Mary Magdalene, Noah, John the Apostle, Enoch, Abraham, Cyrus the Great and Genghis Khan, and nobody has complained. What I would really like is a sorted list with whatever page has the longest "titles =" line in the infobox at the top. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:39, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing those pages, Guy - they look so much cleaner now. I don't know if there's any way to do what you're wanting done; I think this is just going to have to be a change that we implement into the MOS itself and then just fix pages as we see them. If someone can suggest something better, I'm sure we're all ears. I'm just wondering if we should add some text to MOS:INFOBOX that reflects this discussion. Sleddog116 (talk) 23:03, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

ADDITION: I think it would be good to add some text to the "Purpose" section of MOS:INFOBOX. It currently says: "wherever possible, present information in short form, and exclude any unnecessary content." I think that right after that sentence, we should include this: "For an infobox of a person, if the subject has numerous commonly-used titles or honorifics, only the most common/neutral title should be used." I don't really like the way I worded that just now, but I'm having a tough time thinking of a better way to put it. Any suggestions would be great. I don't want to be reckless with the MOS, so I haven't changed anything yet. Sleddog116 (talk) 23:10, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I think removing the "/neutral" would be a good idea - under the spirit of WP:COMMONNAME (yes, I know it doesn't apply here, but ...) the most common would work. Perhaps phrase it as "most common/important" to ensure that if some guy was famous as a Duke but served as King for a day or two, his title as King is included in the title/honorific section alongside his title as Duke. I do like the idea of multiple infoboxes for people who are famous fro two different sorts of things, such as David, who has one box for being a king and another for being a prophet.--Philosopher  07:32, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

"Olympic Games" (grammatical number)

What is the grammatical number of the expression "Olympic Games"? Is it singular, or plural, or both? (Incidentally, we use green for correct examples and red for incorrect examples—so maybe we can use yellow for undecided examples.)

• "This Olympic Games is popular."
• "These Olympic Games are popular."
• "This Olympiad is popular."
• "These Olympiads are popular."
• "We attended two consecutive Olympic Summer Games(es)."
• "We attended two consecutive Olympic Summer Olympiads."
• "{This Olympic Games/These Olympic Games/This Olympiad} has the most games of all {Olympic Games(es)/Olympiads}.”

The word "Olympiad" designates a four-year period—but why not also a set of Olympic Games in one year?
—Wavelength (talk) 15:50, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

The Games of the Thirtieth Olympiad are plural. The Olympiad is singular. Neither is both. ✝DBD 22:49, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

We find both singular and plural usage of "Olympic Games" (a naive search is complicated by the fact that the singular is often a qualfied usage like "the problem of finding a hotel for the Olympic Games is ...". My impression is that the plural usage is more widespread. Any attempt to enforce singular usage would be needless pedantry almost certainly doomed to failure. --Mirokado (talk) 05:40, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

The first sentence of the article "Olympic Games" (version of 15:43, 27 June 2012) says "The Olympic Games … is", and the second sentence says "The Olympic Games are".
—Wavelength (talk) 20:51, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I suspect the first “is” is just some kind of editing slip-up, as evidenced by the comma before it which doesn't belong. ― A. di M.​  00:50, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

The web page Spectators - 2012 Olympics | London 2012 has an article beginning with the following sentence.

• The Olympic Games is the biggest sporting event on the planet.

—Wavelength (talk) 02:58, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Paragraph 3 of the article "Summer Olympic Games" (version of 12:29, 29 June 2012) begins with the following sentence, implying a singular form "Summer Olympic Game".

• The United States has hosted four Summer Olympics Games, more than any other nation.

—Wavelength (talk) 02:58, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

The article subsection "2012 Summer Olympics#Sports" (version of 11:29, 30 June 2012) includes the following sentence, using the expression "a Games".

• The IOC reinforced its decision to drop both sports during the 2006 Winter Olympics, after they lost votes for reconsideration, and were last scheduled for a Games at the 2008 Olympics.

—Wavelength (talk) 02:58, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

The article "Olympic Games scandals and controversies" (version of 18:13, 29 June 2012) begins with the following sentence.

• The Olympic Games is a major international multi-sport event.

—Wavelength (talk) 02:58, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Paragraph 2 of the article subsection "International Olympic Committee#International Olympic Sports Federations (IFs)" (version of 09:14, 28 June 2012) begins with the following sentence. The word "each" is grammatically singular (Subject-Verb Agreement, section 2).

• The continually increasing value of Olympic broadcast partnership has enabled the IOC to deliver substantially increased financial support to the IFs with each successive Games.

—Wavelength (talk) 02:58, 1 July 2012 (UTC) and 03:03, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I have posted a message at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Olympics and the same message at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Sports, inviting comments here.
—Wavelength (talk) 02:52, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Input requested

I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to post it (I couldn't think of a better place), but I'd like to see if anyone would be willing to give some input on a proposed change to List of Presidents of Egypt. The issue is whether to have one table for multiple sections for this list article as in the current revision or multiple tables as in this revision. The discussion is at Talk:List of Presidents of Egypt#Tables. Thanks! Trinitresque (talk) 23:58, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Largest possible heading

Please provide input on the following. I did not wish to bother rewriting, so I copied and pasted the comments. Again, please kindly provide input. Thanks. 69.155.143.207 (talk) 02:50, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

(Copied from User_talk:Noetica#Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style)

Hello.

I noticed that you undid my edit there, stating that I should've left an informative edit summary. Not sure what I could've stated. There was not much to say. It's demonstrably correct. Please get back to me when you have a chance. Please leave a talkback notice on my talkpage when you do. Thanks. 69.155.143.207 (talk) 22:13, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Noetica and watchers, here is a link to the edit, which was performed at 04:20, 27 June 2012.

—Wavelength (talk) 22:37, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Anonymous. I undid your edit for two reasons:

1. Your edit summary was uninformative: "Adding fact". WP:MOS is the central style resource for 6,943,447 articles, so proper documentation of changes is imperative. If you, especially as an IP editor, simply say that you are adding a fact, dozens or perhaps hundreds of editors will have to check what that supposed fact is, and whether it is useful on the page. This is an unfair burden to impose on them; you could very easily have given the fact itself in your edit summary – as I took the trouble to do, when I reverted your edit. What's more, in earlier days editors have masked substantial changes under misleading edit summaries, causing enormous disruption and forcing more responsible editors to struggle, much later, to find the source of provisions that somehow found their way onto the page. I therefore take a stand against inadequate edit summaries, and against edits that lack an edit summary.
2. While what you added is indeed a fact, its inclusion is undiscussed. It may appear to permit markup that no editor would ever be justified in using on a Misplaced Pages page.

I suggest that you take the proposed edit to WT:MOS (the talkpage for WP:MOS), and work out whether and how the fact might be included. Perhaps it could be worded like this:

Never use the largest possible heading, which is generated with =Title=. That size is reserved for the title of the whole page.

☺

Noetica 01:42, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

If we're looking for an existing guideline against using level one headers, there are several, such as this one: "Heading 1 (=Heading 1=) is automatically generated as the title of the article, and is never appropriate within the body of articles." Art LaPella (talk) 04:08, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

In that case, it seems odd that it is technically possible. There must be some type of rare application for it. If it wasn't at all necessary, then why'd the developers bother implementing it? Since the title is automatically inserted, I'd figure that it would be formatted via raw HTML rather than wikicode. Am I missing something? Thanks in advance. 69.155.143.207 (talk) 04:26, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Style guidelines such as avoiding level one headings are listed at the Manual of Style, not by developers. Developers don't need to know an en dash from an ellipsis in order to develop. The system the developers provide make it possible to ignore everything in the Manual of Style, but Misplaced Pages has chosen to let the Manual have the authority of a Misplaced Pages:guideline. In particular, it is a Misplaced Pages guideline that we don't encode level one headings.

"raw HTML rather than wikicode" If you edit any page such as Big Bang, you won't find =Big Bang= on the edit page. So that heading is at the beginning of the article but isn't in the wikicode, if I understand what you mean. Don't ask me how the software makes the main heading appear, but we editors don't do it. Art LaPella (talk) 05:02, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

“There must be some type of rare application for it.” Yes, but not in the main namespace. I've seen used it in project pages that transcluded entire other pages, for example. ― A. di M.​  08:51, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Reasonable edit, however, as discussed above, an editor expressed that it may have an application outside of the article space, such as use next to transclusions of entire pages. Should we add that? We should make some clarification for its application. If it is true that it is absolutely never to be used, we could either have an edit filter to notify the user of a manual of style error, or, use a bot to correct it. Thanks. 69.155.143.207 (talk) 00:35, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Here's a use case: User talk:AlanM1/Archive 1.

I recently archived my talk page. The format of the article title (as .../Archive n) is apparently more of a requirement than a suggestion if you want things to work properly with it. However, I wanted to put a header above the archived sections (which are themselves under level-2 headers) to allow for possible combining of archives later. So, I used a level-1 header. Admittedly, it looks strange, but the alternative of "demoting" all the headers by one level seemed ugly, too. Not sure what to do here. —— 23:03, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

What you do in your archives is outside the scope of the MOS. Dicklyon (talk) 23:24, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit summaries

(this subsection deals with the point about edit summaries raised above --Mirokado (talk) 02:26, 29 June 2012 (UTC))

@Noetica: The thing to do when someone makes an edit with nothing wrong with it except the edit summary, the thing to do is not reverting it, it's making a dummy edit describing it. ― A. di M.​  08:51, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

A di M: Thank you for your opinion. What a pity you present it as fact. ☺ I have a different opinion; and I do not present it as fact. Study the difference.

In any case, if you read what the anonymous editor has copied from my talkpage, I do indeed find something wrong with it. And I went to a good deal of trouble to assist.

Carry on.

Noetica 09:53, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I didn't refer only to this edit specifically. (A while ago I saw an edit doing nothing but adding interwiki links reverted on those grounds, for example.) In other words it was only Point 1 above I had an issue with, not Point 2. (How does something starting with “the thing to do” sound like a statement of fact rather than of value, anyway?) ― A. di M.​  12:59, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

A di M is right. While informative edit summaries are almost always desirable, they are not always required. We should not revert edits unless there is something wrong with the content that was added, removed or changed. The thing to do would be to either add a dummy edit as A di M says, send the editor a message telling him or her to do it him/herself, or both.

Look at it this way: removing a good edit makes the article worse. It may or may not teach the editor a lesson about leaving informative summaries. This type of deletion could be considered WP:Point because it can in its more extreme forms disrupt Misplaced Pages for the sake of proving a point.

Just in case this needs to be said, this doesn't mean that it's never okay to revert an edit that doesn't have a summary, just that the edit summary alone is not sufficient reason.

Regarding Noetica's second point, users are not required to discuss changes to articles ahead of time. It wise in the case of controversial changes, but it is not required. The thing to do if one feels the content to be misleading would be to reword it. The wording that Noetica gives above is would dispel the problem of users thinking that banned font sizes are permitted on Misplaced Pages. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:51, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Archive 126#Edits in WP:MOS that lack informative summaries (begun by Noetica at 09:42, 23 September 2011)

and Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Archive 101#misleading (deceptive?) edit summaries (begun by Tony1 at 04:02, 17 June 2008).

—Wavelength (talk) 14:56, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

See also these contributions to the Manual of Style by User:LittleBenW, and look for an adequately informative edit summary. For comparison, here is a link to that editor's general contributions to Misplaced Pages.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:34, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Wavelength:

Thank you. I have reverted those undocumented additions to this central page of Misplaced Pages's Manual of Style, and provided an edit summary accounting for their content and also for my reversion.

A di M:

I understand that you referred also to earlier edits. The reasoning I gave on my talkpage (now copied to the start of this section) applies generally to those reversions also. Wavelength has also linked to extensive relevant discussion on this talkpage. You ask: "How does something starting with 'the thing to do' sound like a statement of fact rather than of value, anyway?" I am at a loss to explain, if you don't understand already. But let me try: Statements of the form "A is B" are, on a first analysis, statements of fact. We can choose to use such statements to express our preferences, our norms of conduct, our moral convictions, and so on. But it is unhelpful to do so. Famously, such preferences are just that: matters of personal predilection. It is more helpful to use modified forms like this, to acknowledge that variability: "I prefer to act as if A is B"; "It seems to me that A is B"; "I recommend acting as if A is B." An alternative to making statements at all is to issue a request or a command, with an imperative: " act as if A is B." In practice, such an imperative will have this form: " do C." Questions also work rather well: "Wouldn't it be better to act as if A is B?" and so on.

Darkfrog:

You write: "While informative edit summaries are almost always desirable, they are not always required. We should not revert edits unless there is something wrong with the content that was added, removed or changed." My answer (already given at length; see Wavelength's link): For policy pages and style guidelines affecting 6,943,447 articles, I strongly favour clear documentation. No exceptions. Edit summaries are mandated by the relevant policy. I quote the subsection WP:Edit#Be helpful: explain in full, with my underlining:

Be helpful: explain your changes. When you edit an article, the more radical or controversial the change, the greater the need to explain it. Be sure to leave a comment about why you made the change. Try to use an appropriate edit summary. For larger or more significant changes, the edit summary may not give you enough space to fully explain the edit; in this case, you may leave a note on the article's talk page as well. Remember too that notes on the talk page are more visible, make misunderstandings less likely and encourage discussion rather than edit warring.

So editors are to "leave a comment", and to "try to use an appropriate edit summary". Now, I cannot believe that an editor experienced enough to edit WP:MOS usefully will fail in an attempt to leave an edit summary! The policy I cite explicitly applies to editing articles: almost certainly an accidental restriction; it seems to me that it should apply with greater force to editing Misplaced Pages policy and guidelines. I will act as if it does.

Darkfrog, you also write: "... users are not required to discuss changes to articles ahead of time. It wise in the case of controversial changes, but it is not required." I agree! I act that way myself, and I have just now edited the page without discussion here. I left a descriptive edit summary, and invited further improvements – and discussion, if that seems necessary.

♥

Noetica 00:16, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

“Statements of the form "A is B" are, on a first analysis, statements of fact.” Huh, not necessarily: it depends on what B is. If I say “abortion is evil” or “Jimmy Page is awesome” or “this cake is not too bad”, I'm making judgements about the morality of abortion or Jimmy Page's skills or the taste of this cake, not factual statements. It's not like one can perform an experiment to find out whether or not abortion is evil. ― A. di M.​  08:45, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

A di M, if you want to pursue this side issue, do so at my talkpage. Consider first, though: Have you understood "on a first analysis"? Have you understood my continuation, after I introduced that caveat? ☺
Noetica 23:08, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Editors, there is a related discussion in progress at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (technical)#Longer edit summaries, please (version of 00:37, 29 June 2012). Also, I have mentioned previously the dynamic tension between conciseness and informativeness in the composition of edit summaries and section headings. Now, I mention that there is also a dynamic tension between long section headings and long edit summaries. The MediaWiki software includes the characters of a section heading in the allowable number of characters.

—Wavelength (talk) 01:34, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Noetica, while the passage you've quoted certainly encourages editors to leave good summaries and can be interpreted to require it (though not correctly, in my view), it does not say that it's okay to revert changes just because they lack good summaries. If you believe editors have violated policy, then report them, but do not punish the article or the readers. Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:20, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your advice, Darkfrog. I will not follow it. I am surprised at your divergent interpretation of what I take to be a clear requirement in Misplaced Pages policy (except for the careless restriction to article that I have noted and that you have perpetuated just now), and at your mischaracterisation of what I have repeatedly explained on this talkpage. Note also: I do not seek to "punish" anyone, or any Misplaced Pages page. I have explained why I have adopted my present stance, and I will continue with it. How curious that you dwell on my stance, rather than on breaches of policy that have been shown to cause enormous disruption, and extra work for more considerate editors. ♥
Noetica 23:08, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

You don't seek to punish the readers, but they're the ones who get a lesser Misplaced Pages when people remove beneficial changes for reasons other than the content of those changes. If you want to teach editors a lesson in proper Wikiediting, that's to everyone's benefit, but don't do it by reverting change that have nothing wrong with them.

What part of what you've said have I misunderstood? Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:13, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Darkfrog, no reader suffers if undocumented changes to the Manual of Style are reverted – or undocumented changes to any other guidelines or policy. That is the limit of what I propose to do. You still seem to be conflating the terms article and page. For another thing, you write (and I underline):

... while the passage you've quoted certainly encourages editors to leave good summaries and can be interpreted to require it (though not correctly, in my view), it does not say that it's okay to revert changes just because they lack good summaries.

Well, I am not claiming that it does. But it also does not say not to, either. In the absence of a policy or guideline specifically addressing such undocumented edits, I use my discretion and act according to WP:BOLD. Still, at a recent ArbCom case affecting MOS this principle was affirmed in the final decision:

A higher standard for participation and consensus exists for changes to policies and guidelines, as stated in Misplaced Pages:Consensus#Level of consensus.

And this remedy (my underlining):

All parties are reminded to avoid personalizing disputes concerning the Manual of Style, the article titles policy ('WP:TITLE'), and similar policy and guideline pages, and to work collegially towards a workable consensus. In particular, a rapid cycle of editing these pages to reflect one's viewpoint, then discussing the changes is disruptive and should be avoided. Instead, parties are encouraged to establish consensus on the talk page first, and then make the changes.

If the Committee determined that editing pages first and then discussing is disruptive, we are justified in thinking that it is more disruptive to edit the page without even documenting the change adequately.

I am confirmed in my resolve by that ArbCom case. My stance is to permit reversion of inadequately documented changes to MOS (and other policy or guidelines), and I will do that myself after consideration of the merits of those changes. I will at least alert editors to the content that I have reverted, where this is feasible. When a change has obvious and uncontroversial merit (like a correction of a plain error), then I have acted as you propose: I have made a null edit, and documented the change. However, there is intrinsically "something wrong", as you put it, in introducing undocumented changes that editors would want to be advised of. I will sometimes revert those, because even the most innocent non-error-correcting changes can have harmful and unforeseen consequences. They may at least clutter the page, and that is a serious cumulative harm to a page that is already necessarily complex.

Noetica 03:02, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

If the change is beneficial, then the readers suffer if it is reverted. If you believe an editor is doing something disruptive, then you have the option of talking to the editor or reporting the editor.

At the very least, you have to look at the change to see if it is disruptive or involves a viewpoint. Lack of an informative edit summary is not inherently either of those things. I can see why you find it annoying, but that's not the same as being detrimental to the page. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:48, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

On your points, Darkfrog:

• If the change would be beneficial but for its being undocumented and unnoted by editors, then by definition it would ultimately be in the interest of readers that it go ahead. But if it is undocumented and unnoted by editors, that may cancel the benefit, for a net negative outcome. I weigh those considerations, and act appropriately: with some considerable expenditure of effort, to counter the negligence of the editor whose work I am reviewing. That should be clear from the copious explanations I have given to your short assertions. And yes, I have the options that you mention; along with others. I make my choice among those options, on rational grounds.
• I have argued, with support from policy and recent ArbCom rulings affecting the Manual of Style, that lack of an adequate summary is indeed disruptive. I have earlier argued this at greater length. I have nothing new to add, and I think you have no new objection to raise. I have answered all objections at length. I would prefer now to leave this matter; but as you know, I can talk the legs off a chair if called upon to do so. Do not call upon me to do so.

☺

Noetica 21:52, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

"But if it is undocumented and unnoted by editors, that may cancel the benefit, for a net negative outcome."

This is where things aren't adding up. There is no direct connection between the text of the change itself and the text typed into the edit summary. I don't see how annoying other editors necessarily makes the article worse. It's not good, but it's a different kind of not good. The solution still seems to be to deal with the editor rather than revert the change. This type of reversion still looks like a mild form of WP:POINT.

And let's take the OP's change as an example. This person did leave an accurate edit summary. It just didn't happen to satisfy you personally. Darkfrog24 (talk) 05:37, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Darkfrog24, I repeat what I posted at the beginning of the original discussion.

• Here is a link to the edit, which was performed at 04:20, 27 June 2012.

The edit summary was "Adding fact", which is not an adequately informative edit summary.

—Wavelength (talk) 14:32, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Inadequately summarized edits inconvenience editors who wish to examine the potential value of the edits, and can be more annoying than reverted edits. Editors unfamiliar with past occurrences of deleterious edits slipped into the Manual of Style without adequately informative edit summaries may not be aware of potential problems. Inadequately summarized edits can be more annoying than reverted edits.

—Wavelength (talk) 14:46, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

But reverting a beneficial or neutral edit solely because it is inadequately summarized is not the answer. Talking to or, if necessary, reporting the editor who left the inadequate summary is the answer.

The act of leaving an inadequate summary may annoy and make more work for other editors, but that doesn't mean that the edit itself is necessarily harmful. A person could correct fifty typos and summarize it as "puppies" or replace rows of instructions with their opposites and summarize it as "Clarifying the wording of instructions on parentheses." The only real way to determine whether an edit merits reversion is to look at it.

It is better for editors to be inconvenienced than it is for the readers to receive a lesser Misplaced Pages. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:21, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree; if an edit obviously makes for a better WP, I wouldn't revert it. But I don't think that's what we were talking about here. When an uncommented edit looks questionable, I revert it, and give the editor a chance to discuss and say what the intent was (look for "uncommented" in many of my edit summaries for examples). Dicklyon (talk) 01:47, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. You have to look at the edit to determine whether or not it is questionable. The lack of a summary by itself is not enough. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:08, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Right; and a quick hover is usually enough to tell you if it's questionable, especially when there's no edit summary to make the intent clear. Dicklyon (talk) 00:36, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Somewhat tangentially, when you first revert and then ask to discuss (or don't say anything, as some admins do), it seems like you're not "assuming good faith". Having been the target of such reverts, I've felt "shot first". Why not ask first, then shoot (revert) if needed? You'll end up with a less-antagonized editor, at the very least. —— 01:08, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Line breaks

Is there any current advice on whether line breaks should be inserted in the wikitext of long paragraphs? Such insertion is on the principle that it will not affect the appearance of the article, but will help editors when viewing diffs in the future. I found WP:Don't use line breaks but that is old and inconclusive. I am used to seeing single-line paragraphs in articles, but have encountered an editor who wants to insert line breaks. It's pretty trivial, but I would like to know what people think, yet have failed to get any interest at VPR. Johnuniq (talk) 11:16, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Related: Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard#C++. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:21, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Why were characters edited globally on this page?

Guy Macon's edit summary doesn't explain why he's changing people's signatures on this page. Tony (talk) 12:22, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't mind what he did to my sig that much (though if he has a problem with my sig, I'd prefer him to tell me first), but replacing Noetica's heart suit with a question mark hardly counts as “No change to content”. (The de-facto-standard ASCII equivalent of that is <3.) ― A. di M.​  13:25, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

On my screen (preview and edit box) the above is nearly unreadable, but it is not, as I mistakenly thought, the fault of the sig or Misplaced Pages's wikimarkup-to-html engine. See Misplaced Pages:Village pump (technical)#Unicode horizontal bar and zero-width space in sig confusing Firefox for a description of what I believe the problem is. I have, of course, self-reverted my change, and I apologize for the error. Sorry about that. Please correct any weird spacing issues in this post - to me it looks like I have at least 20 blank lines above it which I suspect are on my screen only. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:37, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Replacing Noetica's heart suit with a question mark was accidental. I thought I had re-introduced all the other Unicode characters after running my Unicode to ASCII converter. I apologize for the error and I hope that it didn't inconvenience anyone. I really am sorry for making such boneheaded mistakes. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:19, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I switched back to the default signature, just in case. A. di M. (talk) 15:53, 1 July 2012 (UTC)