Misplaced Pages

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Archives

Index –index– October 28, 2001 – April 12, 2004 April 16, 2004 – August 23, 2004 August 28, 2004 – December 8, 2004 December 9, 2004 – March 23, 2005 March 23, 2005 – July 24, 2005 July 26, 2005 – September 9, 2005 September 9, 2005 – September 24, 2005 September – December 2005 January 2006 January – February 2006 February 2006 February 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006 – late May 2006 May 24 – July 2006 July 2006 – August 2006 August 2006 Most of September 2006 Late September 2006 – Early November 2006 Most of November 2006 Late November 2006 – December 8, 2006 December 9, 2006 – Mid January 2007 From December 22, 2006 blanking Mid January 2007 – Mid February 2007 Mid February 2007– Feb 25, 2007 From March 2, 2007 blanking March 2–5, 2007 March 5–11, 2007 March 11 – April 3, 2007 April 2 – May 2, 2007 May 3 – June 7, 2007 June 9 – July 4, 2007 July 13 – August 17, 2007 August 17 – September 11, 2007 September 14 – October 7, 2007 October 28 – December 1, 2007 December 2 – December 16, 2007 December 15 – January 4, 2008 January 4 – January 30, 2008 January 30 – February 28, 2008 February 28 – March 11, 2008 March 9 – April 18, 2008 April 18 – May 30, 2008 May 30 – July 27, 2008 July 26 – October 4, 2008 October 4 – November 12, 2008 November 10 – December 10, 2008 December 5 – December 25, 2008 December 25 – January 16, 2009 January 15 – January 27, 2009 January 26 – February 10, 2009 February 8 – March 18, 2009 March 18 – May 6, 2009 May 5 – June 9, 2009 June 10 – July 11, 2009 July 12 – August 25, 2009 August 26 – October 3, 2009 October 4 – November 20, 2009 November 20 – December 21, 2009 December 22, 2009 – January 25, 2010 January 22, 2010 – February 22, 2010 February 22, 2010 – March 17, 2010 March 17, 2010 – April 9, 2010 April 11, 2010 – April 24, 2010 April 23, 2010 – May 12, 2010 May 10, 2010 – June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 – June 26, 2010 June 26, 2010 – July 22, 2010 July 22, 2010 – August 23, 2010 August 4, 2010 – August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 – September 14, 2010 September 13, 2010 – October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 – November 8, 2010 November 8, 2010 – November 21, 2010 November 21, 2010 – December 6, 2010 December 6, 2010 – December 22, 2010 December 21, 2010 – January 17, 2011 January 16, 2011 – February 10, 2011 February 6, 2011 – March 19, 2011 March 16, 2011 – March 26, 2011 March 26, 2011 – April 22, 2011 April 22, 2011 – May 16, 2011 May 17, 2011 – June 9, 2011 June 10, 2011 – July 1, 2011 July 1, 2011 – July 15, 2011 July 16, 2011 – July 26, 2011 July 26, 2011 – August 15, 2011 August 14, 2011 – August 23, 2011 August 21, 2011 – August 31, 2011 August 30, 2011 – September 7, 2011 September 4, 2011 – September 25, 2011 September 26, 2011 – October 19, 2011 October 16, 2011 – November 5, 2011 November 4, 2011 – November 12, 2011 November 11, 2011 – November 24, 2011 November 24, 2011 – December 6, 2011 December 3, 2011 – December 14, 2011 December 10, 2011 – December 16, 2011 (RFC about the Stop Online Piracy Act) December 15, 2011 – December 30, 2011 December 27, 2011 – January 9, 2012 January 9, 2012 – January 18, 2012 January 17, 2012 – January 30, 2012 January 28, 2012 – February 12, 2012 February 7, 2012 – February 25, 2012 February 19, 2012 – March 4, 2012 February 27, 2012 – March 18, 2012 March 17, 2012 – April 2, 2012 March 31, 2012 – April 13, 2012 April 12, 2012 – April 18, 2012 April 18, 2012 – April 26, 2012 April 26, 2012 – May 6, 2012 May 2, 2012 – May 22, 2012 May 19, 2012 – June 9, 2012 June 4, 2012 – June 20, 2012 June 18, 2012 – June 28, 2012 June 26, 2012 – July 12, 2012 July 3, 2012 – July 22, 2012 July 19, 2012 – July 29, 2012 July 25, 2012 – August 9, 2012 August 7, 2012 – August 30, 2012 August 29, 2012 – September 13, 2012 September 13, 2012 – September 27, 2012 September 26, 2012 – October 5, 2012 September 24, 2012 – October 20, 2012 October 9, 2012 – October 31, 2012 October 29, 2012 – November 19, 2012 November 17, 2012 – December 5, 2012 December 2–15, 2012 December 15–28, 2012 December 24, 2012 – January 12, 2013 January 13–31, 2013 February 1–10, 2013 February 11–28, 2013 March 1–16, 2013 March 17–27, 2013 March 28 – April 6, 2013 April 6–19, 2013 April 19 – May 3, 2013 April 25 – May 8, 2013 May 6–19, 2013 May 18–30, 2013 May 27 – June 16, 2013 June 17–30, 2013 June 27 – July 30, 2013 July 31 – August 4, 2013 August 4–12, 2013 August 13–27, 2013 August 28 – September 4, 2013 September 5–10, 2013 September 11–22, 2013 September 24 – October 6, 2013 October 7–16, 2013 October 17–27, 2103 October 28 – November 6, 2013 November 7–19, 2013 November 20–27, 2013 November 28 – December 5, 2013 December 6–24, 2013 December 25–30, 2013 December 31, 2013 – January 14, 2014 January 15–24, 2014 January 25–29, 2014 January 30 – February 10, 2014 Archives not yet dated: 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 This manual archive index may be out of date. Future archives: 184 185 186

This page has archives. Sections older than 24 hours may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 2 sections are present.

Why is a website not linked to Misplaced Pages allowed to call itself the 'Misplaced Pages Review'?

A simple enough question. As it says at the bottom of this and every page, "Misplaced Pages® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc". If the 'Review' was actually doing anything useful, I could see the benefit of ignoring the infringement, but given its content, the implication that it is anything 'official' is misleading at best. If people want to run a forum for whining about being incapable of complying with policy, for endless gripes about imaginary 'cabals', and for other nonsense, that is their choice - but they should be honest about who they are, or at least about who they aren't. AndyTheGrump 13:15, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

I have no comment on the copyright issue as I am not a lawyer, but I would just like to note that for all intents and purposes the Misplaced Pages Review is an abandoned website, with just a few last gasps of occasional discussions happening these days. Most of the forums have been defaced with colorful epithets directed at yours truly by a banned user named in another topic above, with no active moderators to clean up. So, one of the Misplaced Pages's proverbial thorn-in-the-side is for all intents and purposed vanquished, though the Wikipediocracy still soldiers on bravely, if obscurely. Tarc (talk) 13:44, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

• I believe that USC Title 17 §107 allows for Fair Use exemptions, and says: "...for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright". Other subsections allow for different other Fair Use exceptions to exclusive use of copyrighted material. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:04, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
  • The term "Misplaced Pages" is actually trademarked, as opposed to copyrighted. As I understand it, it's permissible for someone to call their site Misplaced Pages Review, as long as they make it clear that they are not affiliated with Misplaced Pages or Wikimedia itself, which I think it is pretty common knowledge they are not. After all, someone can have a fan page—or a hate page—about the New York Yankees, and the team couldn't try to stop them from using the word "Yankees," although it could try to stop them from using things like the team logos. In any event, Tarc is correct that for better or worse, Misplaced Pages Review is basically moribund at this point. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:09, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
    • There have been some appalling successes of censorship by claims of trademark dilution, e.g. regarding the "U-Hell Web Site", but from skimming this it sounds like overall the courts have started to wise up. Oh, also see , e.g. http://www.ebaysucks.com . Wnt (talk) 17:09, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
    • Ah, a silly mistake on my part Brad, and one I should know better than to have committed. I stand corrected. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:08, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

(Standard disclaimer: the following is not legal nor professional advice.) A name that describes what the establishment does can include trademarks. For example, a "General Motors auto parts supplier" , or "Canon camera repair shop" can use those names; otherwise, the store would be unable to describe its business. As Newyorkbrad said, the establishment has to make its independence from the trademark owner clear. isaacl (talk) 16:52, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

• For what it's worth, Misplaced Pages Review is more or less moribund, with the leading figures of that site having migrated over to the new site Wikipediocracy in a split over moderation policy and personalities. Carrite (talk) 03:31, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

help with red tape

Please help with red tae and bureaucracy. I posted and several people replied but you did not and neither did any administrators. The discussion is in archive 112 which is the most recent of your talk page.

To summarize, five years or so ago I edited on medical topics but then answered a question that a reader posed about a politician. Political supporters then banned me with the fabricated excuse of being a sockpuppet and not being a doctor. I then posted my medical diploma but they just laughed and became sadistic.

A few days ago, I posted on this page and several people suggested IAR and just violate the rules and start a new account. I am afraid that they will use that as an excuse for another ban. Besides, sneaking is unethical Therefore, I ask for your ok to start an account or a pardon with the condition that my summary is accurate. Two administrators giving the ok is almost as good. Please do not ask me to go through bureaucratic hoops. Thank you. 8.18.145.160 (talk) 23:54, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Mr. Wales or administrators, would you help? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.18.145.144 (talk) 02:53, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

To the anon editor, I am an admin here (though really, that doesn't mean anything particularly special, I just get a few extra buttons and a lot more work for it). One of the most important things we do on this project is to listen to one another. Instead of demanding yet again that things be done your way, please go back to the archive section you cite, read the advice of the editors there, and try to follow it. If you can tell us what account it was you edited under, we can certainly look into lifting the block or ban (and determine which one applied, they're not the same thing). This far in the future, we'd probably be well inclined to consider it. But even if that happens, you will be expected to listen to other editors, and if several of them keep telling you the same thing, to consider that they may be right and not insist on having it done your way anyway. Seraphimblade 05:43, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. IAR and starting a new acct and editing well was suggested. I plan to do this based on thie suggestion in the archives. I will check with: seraphimeblade and ask someone else to confirm this is ok.8.18.145.144 (talk) 22:28, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

It seems like that happens a lot on this page. Someone comes forth with claims of mistreatment which, if as described, certainly would be something to be concerned about. He follows up by refusing to post any details which can confirm that the bad treatment really happened.

At this point, I'm about as skeptical of anyone reporting bad treatment here as I am of someone who claims scientists don't believe he has a perpetual motion machine. If he did, it would be revolutionary, but chances are, he doesn't.

Evidence and references are actually important. Ken Arromdee (talk) 14:54, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Strange way of editing

Dear Mr. Wales I have recently registered an account after editing without an account for sometime. I have though found the way Wikiepidia is edited formally to be very odd. I am basing this on this discussion.

While I was not have been correct in my original claim of suspicious editing (I will be more careful next time). I find it very strange that good faith editing of a page to maintaining the quality of a page can be treated in such a way.

I have simply placed the page Controversies at the 2012 Summer Olympics on my watch list and have made frequent edits to the page removing and modifying content, adding in my own content and re-writing content.

I have been accused of "Revert Warring" by removing content which I considered to be of little or no relevance, dubious noteworthiness, little or no encyclopaedic value or was generally not in keeping with the maintenance of a high quality article. I have engaged in lots of discussion on this article as well over the content.

I would like to know if this is what you genuinely think revert warring policies were designed to combat and weather there is a danger that this kind of good faith editing could be driven away by this interpretation of revert warring. Sport and politics (talk) 00:16, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Comments from AndyTheGrump

• "removing content which I considered..." Did anyone else agree with your opinions? AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
  • It doesn't really matter, that is besides the point. If your question refers to the multiple discussions which occurred on the article talk page please view the discussions on the talk page. I am now asking for the opinion of User:Jimbo Wales. Sport and politics (talk) 01:07, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
    • Sorry, are you saying that it doesn't matter whether whether anyone else agrees with your opinions over what is "of little or no relevance, dubious noteworthiness, little or no encyclopaedic value...", you are still entitled to ignore long-standing policies when it suits you? And yes, I can see that you are asking for Jimbo's opinion. Do you intend to continue to ignore the opinions already given at Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette assistance#Cla68 (talk) Ownership and unfounded clims and Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Independnt review required potential suspicious editing, where multiple contributors have tried to explain policy to you. If you do, I can't see why Jimbo's opinion should be so important to you. And come to that, I can't see why Jimbo could even be expected to respond... AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:46, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
      • Jimbo has an open door policy and its up to him as to if he chooses to respond and its not up to any other user to make that decision for him. It is also not right for any user to say effectively it is wrong to post here as you have implied by saying "come to that, I can't see why Jimbo could even be expected to respond". Reading the talk page of that article in question will show extensive discussions. I now await the response of user: Jimbo Wales on what is an issue which has in my opinion potentially serious implications for good faith editing of articles on Misplaced Pages. It is though up to him what he decides to do and is for no of us to try and make those decisions for him Sport and politics (talk) 11:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
        • You have expressed your opinions repeatedly. Others have expressed theirs, and are as entitled to comment here as you are. Meanwhile, while waiting for a response, I suggest you read Misplaced Pages:Appeals to Jimbo. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:34, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
          • Read it had a good laugh!:-) Sport and politics (talk) 09:37, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for removal of adminship

• Misplaced Pages:Requests for removal of adminship

Hi. I was reading your quote here, and thinking about the various comments you have made concerning adminship over the years. And was wondering what you think of this proposal. - jc37 01:58, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

• Don't you think it would have been more proper to link to the main discussion, rather than your one proposal in that discussion? Misplaced Pages:Requests for Comment/Community de-adminship proof of concept/Proposals Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:41, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

WikiFame

Sup Jimbo? I wondered if you wanted a WikiFame, Misplaced Pages's hall of fame. I think I've already thought out the inaugural class:

• Jimbo Wales (Founder of Misplaced Pages)
• Larry Sanger (Co-Founder of Misplaced Pages)
• Ward Cunningham (Inventor of the Wiki)
• Jayemd (Inventor of the WikiFame)
• StrikeEagle (Retired Wikipedian)

So, what do you think? --Jayemd (talk) 03:12, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

• What, no Andrew Schlafly? Joefromrandb (talk) 04:47, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
  • The verifiable King of Misplaced Pages is so often forgotten, I notice. Uncle G (talk) 09:12, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and one more inductee:

• Andrew Schlafly (King Of Misplaced Pages) (LOL!) --Jayemd (talk) 11:46, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
• Is it really right to include yourself? Sport and politics (talk) 11:48, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
• Well I invented WikiFame, right? So it would make perfect sense to induct the inventor of WikiFame into the inaugural class. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jayemd (talk • contribs) 11:55, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
• I think the creator should have the honour bestowed upon them independently of them-self. Sport and politics (talk) 11:59, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
• Ok! But before I'm inducted, I gotta ask you one question: Would you really want me in the WikiFame? Jayemd (talk) 12:06, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Listing just Jimbo as founder and no mention of Larry Sanger might have looked innocent. Listing Jimbo and Larry both as co-founders, sure. But listing one as founder and the other as co-founder...? 46.31.205.66 (talk) 12:21, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

• I like it, I mean the Co-Founder. It's good dialectics and it made me laugh, Ajnem (talk) 13:13, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
  • What about Essjay?·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:08, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
    • I'm pretty sure that Essjay isn't another co-founder. ☺ You'll find that xe is mentioned at Misplaced Pages:History of Wikipedian processes and people#Notable contributors and has been since 2010. (No, Jayemd, you didn't invent this.) Uncle G (talk) 23:38, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
      • You didn't invent it either, Uncle G, and in response to the confusion between the Co-Founders of Misplaced Pages, I basically listed Sanger as a 'Co-Founder' because he is no longer in control of Misplaced Pages (I think he retired, but I might be wrong.) --Jayemd (talk) 18:02, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I think he makes YouTube videos instead now. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:14, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Why?

Ok, I'll try again- I dont see how things have changed in the 1 1/2 to 2 years since I stopped regularly editing. Those same editors continue to be the same ones I see on Jimbo's page, AN/I and elsewhere for incivility and outrageous behaviour. I dont appreciate my original question being lumped in with another thread and closed out by someone other than Jimbo. It is a legitimate question to wonder why the same people get criticized but nothing happens to them. ps- unless you are Jimbo, since this is his page, please dont close out my thread. If HE doesnt want it here, he more than is capable of saying so, and I will name-drop Tarc and anyone else who is rude to me and to anyone else. I do believe I have the right to mention anyone's name I want. Winston Churchill and Eleanor Roosevelt. There I just name dropped some more.97.88.87.68 (talk) 19:11, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I would assume it's because the community thinks they're more useful than they are trouble. I don't usually agree with that way of thinking myself, but this has not been a useful method of trying to change it in the past. My second assumption is that this attempt will likely be deleted and/or archived soon. --Onorem♠Dil 19:17, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

• Many troublemakers leave some do not: I know it is frustrating to see civil, helpful editors struggle against obstruction for years, then get burnout and leave, while the other editors move on to other victims. I was even considering "running for admin" on the platform that I would block trolls, based on a careful analysis of baiting actions and wp:TAGTEAM edits. However, several admins have noted being charged with "admin abuse" for trying to fight various troublemakers. Meanwhile, please understand that many troublesome editors have left Misplaced Pages, and some have even ranted, in a last ditch effort to insult *everyone*, so their final edits were rev-del'd to censor the obnoxious edit-summary texts. The only hope I see is to raise awareness at wp:ANI; and if they are accepted there, then consider using wp:CLEANSTART to select a new username (under admin guidance), where the troublesome users will not know which usernames to wp:Wikihound any longer. -Wikid77 (talk) 00:51, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
• I've known at least one formerly troublesome editor who has since settled down and become productive and civil, so don't assume that because some of the same figures are here they are necessarily as problematic as they once were. If your current account is banned I would suggest emailing Arbcom or an individual Arb and requesting that they agree to end the ban. If it is merely blocked then you can file an unblock request. ϢereSpielChequers 13:34, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Ashley van Haeften

The banning of Ashley van Haeften (User:Fae) has now broke through into the mainstream media, delivering another black eye to WP. "Chairman of Misplaced Pages charity banned after pornography row."

Why has Fae not done the right thing and resigned his position as head of Wikimedia UK following the decision of ArbCom in his case? Does he not understand politics? Is he in denial???

Fae — for god's sake, do the right thing for the good of The Project. Carrite (talk) 03:21, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Ow noes - major national press reports - infamy - increased profile of the arbitration result reflect negatively in real life on the user and in turn on the Misplaced Pages project, especially the Wikimedia UK in relation to the subjects extremely high status and profile in that org . National high profile press articles linking Misplaced Pages UK's charity status to pornography issues for which its chair has been banned from editing the central Misplaced Pages project are a sure net loss to charitable contributions and ongoing status. - Youreallycan 06:24, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I sweated. The title couldn't be more misleading. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 06:47, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• - "Fundraising materials boast that Misplaced Pages “is a safe and trustworthy website for children to do their research”, yet Wikimedia Commons makes massive volumes of pornography freely available to any Misplaced Pages visitor. " - and Mr van Haeften was not banned for posting explicit material, but for where he posted it, his reaction to criticism for doing so and violations of editing rules. (content copy pasted from the linked telegraph external article, only for discussion and not for republishing) - Youreallycan 06:50, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• Let's be blunt, this is the result of an ongoing campaign against sex-related content by the likes of Peter Cohen, JN466, Peter Damian (who's not only banned here but is physically banned from attending WMUK events) and various cranks and nutters on Wikipediocracy/Wikipedia Review who fantasise about getting Misplaced Pages shut down. Having failed to persuade the community here, they're trying to bully and pressure Misplaced Pages through external means such as political lobbying - even making anti-Fae submissions to the UK parliament - and now evidently someone has been shopping stories to the right-wing press. No doubt the people behind this story are trying to tout it around other outlets as well. It's deplorable and an utter betrayal of the spirit of friendly cooperation that Wikipedians are supposed to operate in. Put simply, disputes about Misplaced Pages's content should be resolved on-wiki, not escalated into off-wiki smear campaigns against specific individuals. Prioryman (talk) 08:05, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• That is fairly blunt, Prioryman, especially since you aren't backing up your allegations with any evidence. I think you may be committing a fairly egregious personal attack. JN466 and Peter Cohen, in particular, are editors in good standing. Cla68 (talk) 08:31, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• as we are being blunt Prioryman... Fae is banned here, so has no direct avenue for response. So I will keep this short. It's deplorable and an utter betrayal of the spirit of friendly cooperation that Wikipedians are supposed to operate in.; Ashley violated this spirit first - in nasty and vindictive ways, for which there is amply evidence. Which is why ultimately, the Arbcom was raised. Although there has been off-wiki harrassment, there has also been reasonable criticism and efforts to bring him to account - made difficult to the squirming, circling of wagons and general evasivness of Fae and his supporters. This recent coverage really stems from the fact that Ashley and the WMUK board are staunchly trying to weather the storm - in the face of serious concern amongst WMUK members. If you are looking for a bully, you need only look at one person. --Errant 08:35, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

At least two, actually.VolunteerMarek 08:52, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

After reading the recent discussions, at EN and at the "WP criticism" pages (actually they contain more personal attacks then criticism), it indicates to me that Prioryman is writing the right thing. But since Jimbos talk page got one point of interest for those "critics", as we can see them pop up right after every such rightful comment, it doesn't make sense to me to elaborate the details. It would be like reciting Faust while having annoyed cobras around yourself. In my eyes it is shameful. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 09:07, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• News headline has positive spin "banned after pornography": That Telegraph article is extremely positive, in terms of "family values", to help Misplaced Pages's reputation as fighting against attitudes which conflict with society's norms. Considering how liberal many societies already have become, any such press is a positive spin to show the leadership of WP actively restraining, or banning, excessive promotion or links to pornography. I regret that any person has to be tied to a strong demonstration that WP actively fights improper activities, but the headline will do wonders to reassure wary people who have "heard rumors" that Misplaced Pages management actively promotes porn, instead: "Chairman of Misplaced Pages charity banned after pornography row". -Wikid77 (talk) 09:15, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

If you look closely at the article, then you can see little Larry Sangers constructing and organizing the letters and words. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 09:31, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

The failed encyclopedist Sanger features prominently in the recently published Fox article too, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if he's involved in pushing the hostile briefing against Fae. Prioryman (talk) 18:36, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Will you quit it with the personal attacks AND the BLP violations? Last I checked Sanger was still a living person and BLP applies this page as it does to any other. And btw, you're not exactly helping yourself here.VolunteerMarek 19:18, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• And one of the harassers subsequently went and wrote an attack article (now deleted) on Fae. Can't say i'm really surprised. Silverseren 09:32, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Well, the question of whether Mr. van Haeften satisfies the general notability guide would be a rather interesting one to put to the test. Why don't you give us your Article Rescue Squadron-oriented opinion on this, Seren. You and the ARS crew has argued fervently to retain articles on women with large breasts fired from their job, flight attendants who yell at the passengers, a woman who fell into mail fountains, a girl who hiccups too much, the husband of a Republican presidential candidate, a dead cat with helicopter blades attached to its paws, and so on. Now we have an individual who is the chair of a registered charity, Wikimedia UK, who now appears in multiple reliable sources because of this incident. Surely that merits some consideration for article inclusion? Tarc (talk) 12:38, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
    • WP:BLP1E as you well know. You would be yelling that from the rooftops if it was about anyone other than Fae. Prioryman (talk) 18:36, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
      • Perhaps. But the boilerplate ARS defense to BLP1E is to declare the event to be notable. So, perhaps someone wil ltake a stab at 2012 WMUK Chairman Firing Controversy, or some such. Tarc (talk) 19:02, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
        • Indeed that would make sense, if this encyclopedia were still living up to its principles. Wnt (talk) 19:27, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
          • It's impossible to write up such an article without violating Misplaced Pages review's copyright. Count Iblis (talk) 19:54, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• - A good faith position to take here is to accept that there are many supporters of the family of Misplaced Pages projects that are concerned about the unfiltered access to porn that the project is currently offering - I predict here and now, as I did in Fae's case - this issue will end in a train crash for Misplaced Pages if the good faith concerns are not addressed. - Youreallycan 12:30, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

As long people spread bad faith messages like this, it will surely divide the community. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 12:36, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Where is the bad faith? - My comment is simply my personal prediction on what will happen if this problem is not addressed - Clearly the community is divided on this - as it is on all difficult issues but that is no excuse not to do the hard work to address users good faith concerns, - Youreallycan 12:41, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

But image filter arguments are a tad off topic here for this thread. The Telegraph may have tried to link this story to our porn debate, but the two are quite distinct. Remember Ash's response to criticism of his editing of Gay pornstars was to withdraw from that topic. If this was really about porn that withdrawl would have ended the matter. My view as someone who has argued for an image filter and even designed one option, is that we can get consensus for an image filter providing we keep that debate focussed on creating a system whereby those who want to opt out of seeing certain things here can do so without censoring what others see. ϢereSpielChequers 12:53, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) - Personally imo to protect the projects broader mission , if there is no support for a content filter I would split the pornographic content away from the charitable status part of the project completely - creating a totally independent Pornographic/Adult content Wiki. Youreallycan 13:10, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

The problem is the sharper the divide between what you want to define as porn and what you don't the harder it is to get consensus. Luckily in my experience there aren't that many who object in principle to a genuinely optional filter, providing that you can tune it to your personal boundaries as to what you do or don't want to see. ϢereSpielChequers 13:08, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

So long as it can be bypassed by page/image then the filter can be coarse and block a wide range of images. For example I may have nudity and greater selected, and browse to a page on Rubens the images may initially be blanked out (if the filter is extemely coarse), but so long as I have a simple method to reveal then everything is fine. If I find that I'm always having to 'reveal' then I may change the fileter setting. John lilburne (talk) 13:27, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I suspect that even a filter won't put an end to the porn debates. After all (gasp) think of the children.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:34, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Sad but true, see my paragraph below. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 13:40, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

It's alright to rubbish the "think of the children" argument if you make it clear in fundraisers and publicity materials that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia for adults. But Misplaced Pages wants to have it both ways, presenting itself as childsafe and free of risky content in fundraisers, and a boon to the little girl in Africa or Brazil and kids doing homework everywhere. Wikimedia wants the money of people who think of the children, it just doesn't want to do anything for children itself. It's hypocritical, isn't it? --JN466 14:21, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

@John Lilburne. One divide amongst those who want a filter would appear to be between those who don't see the need for the complexity of a filter setting and those who see that as essential. Me I'm not bothered whether someone would want to set the filter at swimsuit or what in the UK we'd call topshelf. As long as the setting of the filter is personal to the individual and I can set the filter where it suits me I'm OK, the problem is that some people want a nice simple filter that has one single definition of porn. I suspect they assume that the definition that we'd end up with would be the one that works best for them. ϢereSpielChequers 16:08, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

@Youreallycan: I did not refer to your comment as a bad faith assumption. I meant the article, it's dubious headline and it's superficial content.

I would not like the idea to create an adult Wiki. There are many topics that fall under both categories and it strongly depends in which context the articles are seen or used. Violence or even sexual depiction might not be a problem if pupils (children or children close to be adults) use them for educational reasons, with the necessary guidance. In such a case you would barely see any complaints and people are happy to use our resources. But of course you will find the opposite opinions as well. A good example is the solution represented by the San Francisco Public Library. They increased the privacy of the user, but did not start filtering, because they follow the Library Bill Of Rights. I wish that Wikipedias community and the WMF could be as wise as well and use them as a reference. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 13:40, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Where is that guidance supposed to come from? If you look up caning, you get a BDSM navigation template with links to illustrated articles on tit torture and cock and ball torture (sexual practice). If you look up gel bracelet, or fuck, you get similar navigation templates leading to articles on the most bizarre, rare or even entirely made-up kinds of kink. How do children tell what is a normal, common sexual practice and what isn't? Misplaced Pages sure doesn't tell them the prevalence, and the articles are written by practitioners. And if you look up koto, a musical instrument to most people, the first link on the disambig page is to a pornstar bio. --JN466 14:07, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong. But i wonder how you navigate through a library or the Internet. Do you always start with a BDSM term if you want too look for a book about cocking? --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 14:12, 1 August 2012 (UTC) PS: Do you expect to look at a flower if you click on the link "Hikaru Koto, former porn star" inside koto?

I'm always amused by these arguments. In eight years as a Wikipedian, I can't recall ever accidentally finding porn. A lot of the complaints read to me as "I went looking for porn, I found it, and now I'm offended!" It is kind of like searching for a book on the occult then claiming the local library encourages witchcraft. Resolute 14:27, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I also can't ever recall accidentally finding porn on WP. But, then again, I'm never not looking for it. Formerip (talk) 14:30, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Kids look for it. It's absolutely natural. And what they find should have some educational value and present things in context, rather than being merely the how-to guide and fap stash of the local tit torture or zoophilia fan. --JN466 14:33, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Of course they look for it, and let me tell you, there are many places to find much better porn than Misplaced Pages. We're the Sears Catalogue of it, not the Hustler. Your argument there seems to be that the articles need improvement more than anything. Give it a crack, eh? ;) Resolute 14:39, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, thanks for making clear that you had no idea what you were talking about in your preceding post. I'd like to see a cooperation between sex education experts and Misplaced Pages, to get Misplaced Pages's sexology articles to a level where they might begin to make some educational sense. I'd consider that more important than GLAM outreach. That's what I'd like to see a Wikimedia UK chairman do, rather than uploading bondage pictures of himself in an exercise of narcissism. --JN466 14:33, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

There is currently an multi-wikiproject effort to get Birth control up to Good Article status so we can start translating improvements to some of the wikipedias with relatively large numbers of readers per editors. Please join in and help. 207.224.43.139 (talk) 00:43, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Do you know how silly you sound? I had to look at the caning article 3 times looking for that template before noticing it hiding out requiring me to find it and click on it to open those options up. "If you look up gel bracelet, or fuck, you get similar navigation templates leading to articles on the most bizarre, rare or even entirely made-up kinds of kink." Or even entirely made-up kink? That's the point of the box and you're making it part of the argument. I'd never heard of the gel bracelet 'controversy' myself, but if it's considered notable enough to be included, I guess the box fits. Please be specific about what Fuck links to that you don't think someone searching for FUCK doesn't want to see or find. Seriously. --Onorem♠Dil 15:09, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm talking first and foremost about everything in the Sexual slang template. Topics like Pearl_necklace_(sexuality), felching, rusty trombone, saddlebacking, glory hole, etc. Many of these articles are poorly sourced, and poorly written, focusing on mentions in pop culture rather than their relationship to and meaning within human sexuality. Psychological insight is usually completely absent. Some of them, like the pearl necklace article, could be converted into redirects (in this case, to mammary intercourse) without loss of encyclopedic value. As encyclopedia articles, they are little better than Urban Dictionary. The whole approach smacks of a curiosity cabinet designed to appeal to Beavis and Butt-head. These articles are well visited, with tens or hundreds of thousands of views each month. Most of them are missed opportunities falling far short of what an encyclopedia should aspire to. Hence the idea to get in some academic help. We've done it for things like public policy and Monmouthpedia; here is a set of high-traffic articles that could desperately do with some improvement and TLC. --JN466 18:34, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Has WMUK taken legal advice as to whether Mr. van Haeften remains a fit and proper person to run a UK charity?--Wehwalt (talk) 14:53, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

The story appeared on Fox News (Fifty Shades of Misplaced Pages) an hour ago. From the article: Wikimedia UK chief executive Davies defended the foundation on July 31, writing that meeting to ban Van Haeften was far from secret, as the Telegraph described it, and labelling the ban a sanction at one point. I had read on Misplaced Pages Talk pages about 'Fae', but I had NO IDEA he was on the Wikimedia UK Board until now. Of course that's an entirely different situation! Just what does Davies consider to be 'transparent'?! 184.78.81.245 (talk) 16:04, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I was at the last two Wikimedia UK AGMs. Both were in Public and Fae was elected both times. His candidacy was not in anyway a secret from the UK chapter or those who follow it. ϢereSpielChequers 17:04, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

i checked the dates. I assume no one had a TARDIS. 184.78.81.245 (talk) 19:09, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Annual Conference 12 May 2012

Case Opened on 01:02, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Case Closed on 22:26, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

If the Telegraph and Fox News are making noise about this, then that proves that it is good to have Fae stay in his current position. Perhaps ArbCom should think of resigning. The WMF can desysop Admins here, so they could close down ArbCom and reinstate Fae as an editor here. Count Iblis (talk) 16:32, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

That's some twisted logic right there. High-profile, mainstream news media outlets have now taken notice of a WMUK chair being banned from the Misplaced Pages, the organization that his organization was created to assist. Somehow that proves that Fae was right, Arbcom was wrong, and the bans/resigns should be swapped? Tarc (talk) 16:59, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I trust he was being sarcastic. Or was stoned. However, the media attention was only a matter of time, especially given the salacious angle. That's why I'm hoping damage control has been contemplated.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:02, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

At the end of the day, Misplaced Pages is just a website, and neither The Telegraph nor Fox News know anything about how ArbCom really works. If they knew they would perhaps write something about the amateurish way we do Arbitration here, or they would simply ignore any issues related to Misplaced Pages/Wikimedia that are not related to problematic content. Count Iblis (talk) 19:38, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

If we've lost FoxNews, we've lost Middle America. Mark Arsten (talk) 17:21, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Not as far as I can tell. Jon Davies's replies to me suggested that they are following a line that it is impertinent to question poor little Fae just because he was being censured by Arbcom. (I started the correspondence before the ban motion.) If the professional charity runner isn't properly warning volunteer trustees of the trouble they are creating for the charity, then it is hardly surprising that they are taking such bum decisions. Now, is someone there going to have the sense to close the van Haeften chapter before the fundraiser starts and the press can talk about where the money raised goes? The British press won't be dedicating half their space to the Olympics come the Autumn.

As for your original question, they may have taken advice on whether they can be forced to get rid of their Chair, a very different question form whether it is wise to get rid of their Chair. Some people on the Wikimedia UK mailing are talking about getting the signatures together for an EGM about Fae. I suspect that the officials will do their best to obstruct anyone anti-Fae from being able to mail the whole membership and will even then rely on the in-crowd being able to send enough members to an EGM to keep him despite critical votes. Think of all those banks etc that have voted through substantial bonuses for their board despite shareholder and public complaints.--Peter cohen (talk) 17:29, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately an EGM is not an option as you need a board member to call one; and that's a non-starter apparently. A number of other options are being actively explored. --Errant 18:46, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Peter, you've done enough damage already with your campaign. Isn't it time to stop? Prioryman (talk) 18:36, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

They won't stop. They've barely begun. As I have said before, the failure to do the right thing in the Fae case represented the point where Misplaced Pages stops leaking and starts sinking. Right now, at wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=262 , "banned" Greg Kohs is gloating about his unblockability, right here, right now, on this talk page, after apparently putting User:Scottywong in his place as accompanied by a few A Few Good Men style requests for non-harassment. The mainstream news is printing Peter Cohen's talking points. Now Fae, who did so much good work for WMF, is the one on the outside. The question now is not how to save Misplaced Pages, but how to react to what will presumably be a fairly gradual demise in the most useful way. People still want the things that they'll be censoring, such as the truth, and this creates opportunity. But I fear that Misplaced Pages will follow the same trajectory as Encyclopedia Dramatica; that what survives after a betrayal from within will be only a battle-hardened fragment. Wnt (talk) 20:00, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Wikipediocracy is quite teh funny thing though, don't you think? Right now their front page has an article with the byline "E. A. Barbour", yattering on about "a white or Asian male... with a failing marriage (if he’s not gay, which many of them are)". Maybe this kind of thing goes down well with Fox or the Telegraph or ED readers, but there is probably a civilised part of the world that isn't much impressed. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:23, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Fox news article posted link to ED article. Should you consider banning Fox News reporter for creating an attack page on an external web site? Wait a minute, he has no account on Misplaced Pages. Let's ban Larry Sanger instead. D: — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.144.167.137 (talk) 19:50, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I assume that the Telegraph and Fox articles have resulted in a few more journalists and interested observers putting Jimbo's talk page on their watchlists. So, I hope you all continue with the tone of this conversation. It's great stuff for the credibility of Misplaced Pages and its associated projects. Cla68 (talk) 23:38, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I think we're fairly safe in terms of the probability that the journalist in question is engaged in any actual research. Formerip (talk) 23:44, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

+1 Silverseren 00:03, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Regardless of Fae's activities with regards to the porn issue, which I personally don't really care about, wasn't he actually banned for trying to sidestep ArbCom for trying to close the Pandora's box of his linked accounts? WRT the AC case, to be honest, I'm much more concerned about the fact that AC can pass a finding of fact that someone has made a serious violation of the harassment policy, yet not ban them, especially when one arbitrator notes that said user has done the same thing before. We've gone a long way since you could be indeffed for editing the same pages as another user. I don't know which situation I like more. Sceptre 00:55, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

ArbCom used unreliable third hand hearsay evidence to reach the conclusion that Fae was not honest with them. Also, no editor here is without flaws, what really matters is if after some problem has arisen, you can find a way to move forward. Fae had made clear that he would take on board the criticisms that had arisen during the case and would make good on that. But still, ArbCom decided that he needs to be kicked out of Misplaced Pages basically because he was in contempt of ArbCom. So, ArbCom made itself part of the problem here. So, instead of persuing Fae at WMF, what should be discussed is how to reform ArbCom. Count Iblis (talk) 02:33, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Fae had made clear that he would take on board the criticisms that had arisen during the case and would make good on that. - no he did not. If he had "taken on board the criticisms" he would've resigned long time ago and we wouldn't be here, would we (hell, if he had "taken on board the criticisms", there wouldn't even have been an ArbCom case, never-mind newspaper attention)? Instead, what he did is try to weasel his way out of it by offering a non-apology-apology, while at the same time apparently trying to hold on to his position no matter what - in particular, no matter what the damage to the underlying organizations he's suppose to represent. At this point I actually really feel bad for Fae, but that just repeatedly gets trumped by both his self serving refusal to resign his positions of power, as well as this insanely misguided, wrong headed, circling of wagons, "See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No Evil" attitude (if not outright trolling for the lulz) by his supporters (which, ok, maybe isn't exactly his fault, but the fact that he condones it and (probably) encourages it, speaks to intent). Sometimes I can actually imagine a crazy alternative universe where Fae sincerely imagines that someone like Wnt is doing him favors by speaking up. More often I can imagine a slightly less crazy alternative universe where Fae incorrectly believes that having folks like Wnt, and some other of youse, keep up this nonsense, however ridiculous it is, is somehow beneficial to him, strategically. Neither alternative universe is actually real.VolunteerMarek 03:16, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

During the case discussion I reacted to ArbCom's position by saying "I think that all users need to be formally warned not to post any information to Misplaced Pages that they do not wish to be permanently and publicly associated with their real name, and to understand that any use of alternate accounts, IPs, etc. to present photos on delicate matters, such as sexually charged topics, will not be respected." And JClemens responded that "That part is basic and common knowledge, and has been for years". What Fae allegedly wanted Philippe to do was to prevent ArbCom from ordering accounts he set up for privacy on Commons, after harassment so severe that even ArbCom recognized it in sanctions against a few people involved who were within their reach. And they banned him for daring to ask that WMF respect privacy on any project, anywhere, for any reason.

I never got any answer as to whether there is any limit on the time they keep information for doing "checkusers", which includes not just IP addresses but browser information. And they can use all this, divulge all this, merely because of an allegation of impropriety, which is not sustained! Remember EFF's "Panopticlick", warning about unethical Big Brother sites following people around the Web? Well Misplaced Pages is the kind of site they were warning people about. And no doubt a shining example for others who are less open about how they use such things to attack people. Wnt (talk) 03:01, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I think we should have a RFC about ArbCom over this issue to force a community discussion (or perhaps put ArbCom on MFD to basically make it compulsory for the people supporting the present ArbCom system to participate). Count Iblis (talk) 03:16, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Idea for course of action

• I was thinking this over for awhile, and I think one course of action that concerned WM UKer's should consider, since the current Board is covering their ears with their hands, is to start their own, competing WM UK organization. Then, petition the WMF to rescind the current WM UK's charter and recognize the new organization as the rightful WM UK. Follow that up with a notification to the UK government that the original WM UK is no longer recognized by the WMF. Jimbo could actually be of help in getting something like this done. Cla68 (talk) 01:35, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• By the way, a petition for an EGM has been posted. All interested parties should participate. Cla68 (talk) 01:39, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• Someone over there might want to fix the link at wmuk:Call for EGM 2012#Statement to link to w:en:User:Fæ instead of to w:uk:User:Fæ (taht's teh Ukrainian Misplaced Pages;). Br'er Rabbit (talk) 03:40, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Fcite stuck in approval cycles

The Template:Fcite (and related 5x-faster citation templates) have been stuck in formal approval cycles, for nearly a month. The original intent was to allow use of quick cite templates in slow major articles (>5,000 pageviews/day), to format cites 5-6x faster, enabling those articles to edit-preview or reformat 3x faster (6-13 seconds rather than 18 to 39 seconds, like most nations: Brazil, Canada, U.S., Egypt, Israel). Unfortunately, the related TfD for Fcite was closed, incorrectly, as basically, "Don't delete don't use" which, for templates, is nonsense akin to an article as "Keep don't read" or "Keep but text visibility off". Instead, the growing consensus was, actually, "carefully improve, test and deploy" but the TfD was closed incorrectly, and I amended to request a formal re-close as clarified (TfD Fcite amended). Meanwhile, adding more features, to the Fcite templates, has been a slippery slope where each added feature leads to another, and eventually, over 450 parameters are being checked in {Fcite_journal} while still 5x faster. Unfortunately, that has led to another Catch-22, where more parameters should encourage and hasten wider acceptance from users wanting more features, but more parameters means testing becomes more complex, which can further delay acceptance instead. The simplest solution seems to be to offer an extremely simple template, easy to test, and clearly indicate the few parameters supported, while not involving the "85 rare parameters" which have made parameter-testing another complex approval cycle. Otherwise, this is another case of "21 pages" being approved in 2 years. We reached this point because "wp:Don't worry about performance" allowed Template:Citation/core to become a slow, sluggish giant, when instead, it should have been improved, or circumvented 3 years ago, due to known performance problems. Now, it is bureaucratically embedded into 1.6 million articles, and attempts to improve are met with technical limitations and extreme resistance to change. -Wikid77 (talk) 11:30, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Cool story, bro. Now some facts.

• You created a suite of stripped down templates with limited functionality
• They rendered more quickly than the existing ones
• You deployed them without testing
• But they did not work very well so were removed from articles where they were used
• A TfD discussion was opened
• And closed with the words "no consensus to delete, but there is consensus that this should be kept as a testbed, for helping to improve existing citation templates, and not deployed in article space"
• You disagree with the close and choose to ignore it instead of seeking a review.

Have I left anything out? pablo 11:42, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Forgot to mention 25 revisions to meet user requests: Meanwhile, the reality is that several users noted they wanted more parameters and would support consensus to keep, if using extra parameters was not as limited, so I made over 25 more revisions to the Fcite templates to support more parameters (see history of {Fcite_web} or {Fcite_journal} ). I disagreed with the closing admin, and requested a revised closure, which is proper. Since the templates were not TfD-deleted, then a "deletion review" is not needed. -Wikid77 (talk) 13:53, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Sort of covers it. It's only an approval cycle because it has been made one. For most other people it is just: "not approved" and that is then called 'consensus'. I also invite everyone who is really concerned about Cite performance to invest the time into a proper PHP extension instead. Several attempts have already been made, to finish just requires a whole lot more of refinement and effort, but it's doable and would be even faster than a Scribunto based replacement (which btw also would benefit from more developers). —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 12:15, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• Meanwhile, the Fcite templates are ready for use: I have no objections to developing a "proper PHP extension" to format citations someday; however, meanwhile, the expanded, improved {Fcite} templates are ready for use, now, in major articles, to allow edit-preview or reformat of large articles to run 3x faster. A re-reading of the TfD for Fcite will confirm that many users expressed support for using the templates, with requests to allow the extra parameters now added, and to comply with wp:CITEVAR to show the same citation format as in Help:Citation_style_1. There is really no big deal here. The TfD was merely closed with the incorrect wording as, "not deployed in article space" which should be instead, "tested then deployed in article space". -Wikid77 (talk) 13:53, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

If you deploy this in articles despite the TfD closure not to, you will find yourself blocked for disruption. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 14:06, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I am not sure why you would suggest that in writing "not deployed in article space" the closing admin meant "tested then deployed in article space". Given results of the last deployment, your assertion that they are *now* ready and fit for purpose is not too inspiring, either. pablo 15:18, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Compromise consensus was test before deployment: The consensus position, between Delete and Use-regardless, is the middle ground, as to be "tested then deployed in article space". There was concern that the operation of the templates was not yet acceptable for author-name links, so the prior testing in articles is needed before saving an article edit. -Wikid77 (talk) 19:38, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Bzzt. You Made That Up. Please be a collegial participant and use what you've developed to "improve existing citation templates". We need fewer varieties of citation, not more. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 01:59, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Tell you what, make a few (how's 10 sound?) userspace copies of existing large articles, test them out, and give us links to the results. Or open a new RfC on the Pump. - Jorgath (talk) 19:29, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

The prior revisions of 30 articles already use the templates, but they were reverted in the later revisions. See articles: "Canada", "Brazil", "Sandra Bullock", "United States", "Egypt", "Misplaced Pages", "India", etc. Compare the reformat time of the prior revisions edited by "Wikid77" (every prior revision of an article will reformat every time when displayed). -Wikid77 (talk) 19:38, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't have time to check all of them, but I checked "Canada." At a guesstimate, my very slow work connection took 3-5 seconds less (still a long time, it's a really bad connection) on your version (here) and I didn't see anything broken. My recommendation, if that holds true for the others, is to take these results to the Village Pump with a new RfC to request that these be authorized now that you've fixed them. - Jorgath (talk) 19:55, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the language used by the closing admin at the TfD doesn't make much sense. "Keep and test forever" sounds more like an Aperture Science policy than a closing comment on a Misplaced Pages template. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 00:13, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

The current Signpost suggests we will be seeing Lua a lot sooner than expected, perhaps this month. (Lua is a programming language that will be callable by a template, and which drastically speeds up stuff like the refs being discussed here, although of course it will take ages to code and test.) Johnuniq (talk) 01:48, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Wikimedia adverts on TV

What's your opinion on Wikimedia advertising itself on television? 68.173.113.106 (talk) 14:21, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Wikimedia Medicine

You and other editors may be in interested in Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine#The nature and purpose of Wikimedia Medicine (version of 16:01, 1 August 2012), which has a link to meta:Talk:Wikimedia Medicine (version of 16:04, 1 August 2012).
—Wavelength (talk) 16:30, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Dear Jimbo.

Feast your eyes on the mess that is Misplaced Pages:In the news/Candidates. Ain't it wonderful? --Τασουλα (talk) 22:06, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

ITN should be abolished for outright subjective reasons AND encouraging the creation of NOTNEWS articles as justification on an encycopaedia instead of wikinews. Every dadmin uses their own opinion of consensus and update with wildy varying standards. As opposed to DYK which has a fixed objective criteria and is almost always notable. The later doesnt even have the slanging matches and hindrance to change/reform.(Lihaas (talk) 00:12, 2 August 2012 (UTC)).

What are we supposed to be seeing here? --Carnildo (talk) 00:48, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Pages moves and your 2011 Wikimania closing speech

So I was watching the video of your closing speech at Wikimania 2011 (I wasn't able to find the videos from '12, where are those things?), and I think you made great points about the system for proposing page moves, and about these kinds of systems in general.

"Actually, maybe there should be a button, that when you click 'Move', that it says 'Hey, do you think this might be controversial?' 'Yes' 'Thank you, we've made the request for you and everything's done.'"

— Jimmy Wales, Closing speech, Wikimania 2011

More than a year later, the page move system is still a mess of templates. Any idea what happened there? Did it get discussed, and rejected by the the community? Vetoed by the WMF? Were there no developers available to work on it? Or did everyone just forget the whole thing?

I'm going to assume for the moment that it was lack of developer resources that was the problem, so I went and started a possible implementation at User:Yair rand/ControversialMoves.js. (It probably still needs some cleanup before it could be usable.) I'd be really disappointed if the entire reason nobody acted on the idea was that nobody thought the problem was important enough, though. Simplifying complicated procedures just makes so much sense. --Yair rand (talk) 03:17, 2 August 2012 (UTC)