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****I'm not particularly sure that's necessary or even desirable; the current wording has the virtue of clarity, and I'm not sure it is even possible to add qualifiers like this without opening up opportunity for wikilawyering and endless headache. (Honestly, I'm not even sure that my own views, which are expressed in what I believe to be significantly more definitive terms than "within the context of stopping or preventing edit wars", are not wikilawyerable; happily, if someone ever tries to wikilawyer, I can always easily revise it.) I think the best approach is still judicious exercise of admin discretion. Regardless, that's a discussion best reserved for another page.<p>Unless any uninvolved admin objects (or gets to it first), I'll close this appeal as successful and annotate the block log and the ARBPIA log accordingly in about 12 hours. ] (]) 12:00, 27 December 2012 (UTC) ****I'm not particularly sure that's necessary or even desirable; the current wording has the virtue of clarity, and I'm not sure it is even possible to add qualifiers like this without opening up opportunity for wikilawyering and endless headache. (Honestly, I'm not even sure that my own views, which are expressed in what I believe to be significantly more definitive terms than "within the context of stopping or preventing edit wars", are not wikilawyerable; happily, if someone ever tries to wikilawyer, I can always easily revise it.) I think the best approach is still judicious exercise of admin discretion. Regardless, that's a discussion best reserved for another page.<p>Unless any uninvolved admin objects (or gets to it first), I'll close this appeal as successful and annotate the block log and the ARBPIA log accordingly in about 12 hours. ] (]) 12:00, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
{{hab}} {{hab}}

== Bali ultimate ==

==Bali ultimate==
''Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.''

===Request concerning Bali ultimate===
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : --] (]) 11:18, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Bali ultimate}}
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. --->

;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:ARBPIA#Editors_reminded
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced --->

; ] of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation ''how'' these edits violate it :
# "Modern ignoramuses can start here ... This place is pathetic that it gives equal voice to experts and propagandists (yes, I'm talking about "ankhmorpork" and "brewcrewer" when I write that). If they suggest that wire services don't move opinion pieces they're either lying or ignorant". Bali ultimate earlier specified that he himself was the "expert"; this leaves the others as the "propagandists", to which he adds the "either lying or ignorant" provocation. The edit summary here makes an attempt to squirm out of this being a direct personal attack, but is then reversed by the edit summary in the next diff;
# "You know what, here's the massive opinion section at Reuters for the propagandists (anonymous ones, notice)" with edit summary "totally full of it, and proven to be so. They should be ashamed, but ''they have no honor''". (my emphasis)

; Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required) :
<!-- Many arbitration remedies require a prior warning before sanctions may be imposed. Link to the warning here. -->
#Warned on by {{user|Elen of the Roads}} "This page is under ] sanctions. I consider your conduct in making posts of this kind to come under the heading of seriously failing to adhere to expected standards of behaviour. Consider yourself lucky that the longer block under that sanction was not imposed on this occasion. Please find a way to conduct your disagreements in a less aggressive and provocative manner" - note the conduct in question was an incident where Bali ultimate was making the same assertions about other editors being "propagandists"

; Additional comments by editor filing complaint :
* Bali ultimate removes warning from uninvolved administrator {{user|The Bushranger}} with edit summary "run along to activities more suited to your talents".
* I consider the original accusation of "hounding" to be unfounded, and quite frankly the whole thing should've been closed down long ago.
* I've not edited the ANI thread nor the ] article (an Israeli strike against Hamas, therefore clearly covered by WP:ARBPIA) where the disagreement started, but Bali ultimate has made in the past (that one was not related to an ARBPIA issue) so he is not at present on my Christmas card list.
* The other editors involved have not indulged in any ''ad hominem'' behaviour in that ANI thread on either side of the dispute (silly though it is), thus making these personal attacks all the more unreasonable.

; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested :
http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3ABali_ultimate&diff=530128997&oldid=530078648

<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. --->
===Discussion concerning Bali ultimate===

====Statement by Bali ultimate====

====Comments by others about the request concerning Bali ultimate====

===Result concerning Bali ultimate===
<!-- Use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}} to mark this request as closed.-->
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.''

Revision as of 11:18, 28 December 2012

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    Arbitration enforcement action appeal by User:Mor2

    Appeal granted. While the block has already expired at this time, Mor2's block log and the case page will be annotated to reflect that the block was found unwarranted by consensus of uninvolved administrators. Seraphimblade 14:37, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
    Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

    To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

    Appealing user
    Mor2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction being appealed
    blocked for WP:1RR at Operation Pillar of Defense
    Administrator imposing the sanction
    Bbb23 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
    Notification of that administrator
    The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.
    N/A (blocked) but Bbb23 is aware of appeal

    Statement by User:Mor2

    • Reason: I haven't violated the spirit or letter of the policy. I haven't warred with anyone or made more than one revert. I made a simple improvement, based on the section main article lead, providing an extensive edit summary.
    • Details: all the details, difs and explanations were posted here: User_talk:Mor2#December_2012 (I posted them there by mistake, as I am unfamiliar with unblock feature)
    • Request: to lift and strike the block.

    Statement by User:Bbb23

    I believe that Mor2 agrees that this change to the article was a revert. The change at issue is this one and whether it constitutes a revert under WP:1RR. On its face, it is a revert, i.e., "an edit ... that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material." (WP:3RR) As I understand it, Mor2's claim is they were just improving on language they originally introduced 499 revisions earlier, this one on November 17 and this one on November 20.

    As I explained to Mor2 on their talk page, even assuming I should take into account those edits from over a month ago, they don't look like material introduced by Mor2 but material that was altered by Mor2. So, perhaps the latest edit (the one at issue) was an "improvement" in Mor2's eyes, but it looked to me like another alteration or "undoing", if you will.

    I also took into account Mor2's experience and previous block, meaning they were not newbies unfamiliar with arbitration enforcement on this article. Indeed, like many of the frequent editors of that article, they are often more knowledgeable than an admin like me who is merely enforcing the sanctions.

    All that said, if Mor2 had acknowledged that in hindsight what they did was wrong, that they are well-aware of 1RR but sincerely didn't think they were violating it, I might have considered unblocking them. Instead, I don't see any self-awareness in this appeal. That concerns me because it makes it more likely that similar violations may occur in the future.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:12, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

    Statement by Shrike(involved editor 1)

    As I remember in the past AE regular editing that changed a text that was already in the article long time ago was not considered a revert and user were discouraged to bring such kind of reverts to consideration.But my personal opinion and the language of WP:3RR is quite clear on this that any change in the article is considered a revert and the time variable shouldn't really matter.The problem that is left for admin discretion, in my view they shouldn't be any grey areas on this matter.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 16:23, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

    @T.Canens:Shouldn't the language of 3RR amended per your comments.Just it will be clear so no grey areas will be left?--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 17:13, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

    Statement by (involved editor 2)

    Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by User:Mor2

    Result of the appeal by User:Mor2

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • The key question in this appeal is whether this edit is a revert.

      As far as I can determine, the two sentences in the form before Mor2's recent edit were the results for edits by several editors on November 20: the first sentence was added in this edit by Mor2; the source for that sentence added in this edit also by Mor2. The second sentence was also added by Mor2 here, then tweaked by Jalapenos do exist here and finally modified by Nishidani here. I have done a spot check of roughly three dozen revisions between the time of Nishidani's edit and Mor2's new edit at question; all of the revisions I checked have the same text, suggesting that the two sentences at issue are unlikely to have been the subject of an edit war. Under these circumstances, it is arguable that the edit at issue, even if it were a revert, would be mostly a self-revert, but I do not think that is a good ground upon which to dispose of the appeal, because there are elements contributed by other editors, and more importantly because it would make sanctions turn on pure happenstance.

      Rather, I think that the appeal should be allowed on the ground that the edit at issue is not a revert at all. To be sure, it fits the literal description of "revert" found at WP:3RR (any edit...that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material), but every single tweak to an article can be considered a revert by that definition, and it is arguable that even insertion of material that could have been but was not inserted before would "reverse" the implicit "action" not to include the material; that would be simply absurd. As I said before, the xRR rules are intended to constrain actual edit warring, not traps for the unwary or invitations to do hypertechnical parsing of edits in search of reverts. I'll reiterate my longstanding view that for an edit to constitute a revert for xRR purposes, the editor in question must have intended it to undo a particular edit, in whole or in part. This can be shown either by direct evidence such as use of undo or rollback, or mention of revert in the edit summary, or by circumstantial evidence such as a recent or ongoing edit war on the matter, or restoration of an old revision of the page that is unlikely to have occurred from normal editing. In this case we have evidence of neither, and I think that the edit is not a revert, and the 1RR block is in error.

      These views, I believe, are also consistent with previous AE practice. See, e.g., Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive73#SlimVirgin, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive116#Dalai lama ding dong. T. Canens (talk) 17:08, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

    • I'm in broad agreement with T. Canens. In the most hypertechnical sense, we might be able to call just about any edit a revert—even a typo fix "reverses" the typo. I do not see the second edit as having been a revert in the sense that we normally use the word, and so do not believe 1RR was violated. The appealing party does not dispute that the other edit was a revert, so I didn't examine that one. 1RR is intended to prevent disruptive edit warring, not normal editing. Seraphimbladepublic (talk) 18:01, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
    • I also agree with T. Canens. The 3RR/1RR rules are intended to nip edit warring in the bud. Blocking, per 1RR, for a "revert" of an edit that was done weeks ago is (IMO) a distortion of the definition of a revert, and this block makes no sense at all to me. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 19:20, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
    • This AE request is an appeal of Mor2's 48-hour block. Since the block has expired the request is moot. Why don't we declare the appeal successful and close it. EdJohnston (talk) 05:30, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
      • I would make a notation in the block log and in the ARBPIA log to the effect that we have found the block to be unwarranted on appeal before closing this, but otherwise no objections to Ed's proposal. T. Canens (talk) 05:58, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
      • Agreed with this resolution. Seraphimblade 06:42, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
      • Agreed on the notation. Without some highly visible indication that the now-expired block was inappropriate, another admin (or even the same admin) might assume it was OK and feel justified in issuing a similar block down the road. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 08:18, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
        • I would also support the idea of reviewing the current official description of the 3RR policy, to make it clear that 3RR/1RR is to be interpreted within the context of stopping or preventing edit wars. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 08:24, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
          • I'm not particularly sure that's necessary or even desirable; the current wording has the virtue of clarity, and I'm not sure it is even possible to add qualifiers like this without opening up opportunity for wikilawyering and endless headache. (Honestly, I'm not even sure that my own views, which are expressed in what I believe to be significantly more definitive terms than "within the context of stopping or preventing edit wars", are not wikilawyerable; happily, if someone ever tries to wikilawyer, I can always easily revise it.) I think the best approach is still judicious exercise of admin discretion. Regardless, that's a discussion best reserved for another page.

            Unless any uninvolved admin objects (or gets to it first), I'll close this appeal as successful and annotate the block log and the ARBPIA log accordingly in about 12 hours. T. Canens (talk) 12:00, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

    Bali ultimate

    Bali ultimate

    Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

    Request concerning Bali ultimate

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    --Demiurge1000 (talk) 11:18, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Bali ultimate (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:ARBPIA#Editors_reminded
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 00:30 28 December 2012 "Modern ignoramuses can start here ... This place is pathetic that it gives equal voice to experts and propagandists (yes, I'm talking about "ankhmorpork" and "brewcrewer" when I write that). If they suggest that wire services don't move opinion pieces they're either lying or ignorant". Bali ultimate earlier specified that he himself was the "expert"; this leaves the others as the "propagandists", to which he adds the "either lying or ignorant" provocation. The edit summary here makes an attempt to squirm out of this being a direct personal attack, but is then reversed by the edit summary in the next diff;
    2. 00:34 28 December 2012 "You know what, here's the massive opinion section at Reuters for the propagandists (anonymous ones, notice)" with edit summary "totally full of it, and proven to be so. They should be ashamed, but they have no honor". (my emphasis)
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Warned on 4 October 2012 by Elen of the Roads (talk · contribs) "This page is under WP:ARBPIA sanctions. I consider your conduct in making posts of this kind to come under the heading of seriously failing to adhere to expected standards of behaviour. Consider yourself lucky that the longer block under that sanction was not imposed on this occasion. Please find a way to conduct your disagreements in a less aggressive and provocative manner" - note the conduct in question was an incident where Bali ultimate was making the same assertions about other editors being "propagandists"
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    • 02:46 28 December 2012 Bali ultimate removes warning from uninvolved administrator The Bushranger (talk · contribs) with edit summary "run along to activities more suited to your talents".
    • I consider the original accusation of "hounding" to be unfounded, and quite frankly the whole thing should've been closed down long ago.
    • I've not edited the ANI thread nor the Operation Pillar of Defense article (an Israeli strike against Hamas, therefore clearly covered by WP:ARBPIA) where the disagreement started, but Bali ultimate has made some similar comments about me in the past (that one was not related to an ARBPIA issue) so he is not at present on my Christmas card list.
    • The other editors involved have not indulged in any ad hominem behaviour in that ANI thread on either side of the dispute (silly though it is), thus making these personal attacks all the more unreasonable.
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3ABali_ultimate&diff=530128997&oldid=530078648

    Discussion concerning Bali ultimate

    Statement by Bali ultimate

    Comments by others about the request concerning Bali ultimate

    Result concerning Bali ultimate

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions Add topic