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Deletion discussion

This page was placed on Votes for Deletion in June 2004. Consensus was to keep; view discussion at Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/more_911_victims_3. Johnleemk (talk) 07:33, July 4, 2004‎

Nickname

As part of the WP:HOCKEY cleanup of the infobox the nickname mentioned in the infobox is being moved here. "| nickname = Ace" -Djsasso (talk) 21:35, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Consensus Discussion: Krasne information in Legacy section

At issue is the information in the Death and legacy section that follows mention of where Bailey's name is at the National 9/11 memorial:

After the Los Angeles Kings won the 2012 Stanley Cup, David Krasne, a Kings fan in New York City, placed a Stanley Cup champions hat on Mark Bavis and Bailey's names at the Memorial. Krasne visited the National September 11 Memorial on the very same day as the Kings parade and placed his Stanley Cup Champions cap between their names and tweeted; "As a kings fan in NYC, I couldn't let Mark Bavis or Ace Bailey miss the festivities."

User: 72.86.145.77 removed the material, saying in his/her edit summary, "Delete the unseemly self-promotion by a random fan (Krasne)".

The material in question is not "self-promotion", because it was reported by at least two secondary sources, CBS Los Angeles, which is a local affiliate of CBS, and the NESN, which is also a notable source. This is one of the fundamental bases upon which the inclusion of material on Misplaced Pages is validated. If the source in question was Krasne himself, or some outlet that published his writings--that would be self promotion. Since others reported on it, it is not. Since the section is about the subject's legacy, adding it appropriate, and thus I restored the material on that basis.

72.86.145.77 then again removed it, saying in his edit summary, "The info deleted has little to do with Bailey, excessive in length, out of proportion to this entry and to its minimal significance". Again, the section in question is about Bailey's legacy--that is, what influence or affect he and his life have had on others, which continues on after his death. The material in question is a direct example of that, and therefore, saying that it has "little to do with Bailey" is false, as it's entirely to do with him. As far as being "excessive in length, out of proportion to this entry and to its minimal significance", just look at it above. It takes up 81 words. That's a third of the section, and a tiny portion of the article. Calling it excessive or out of proportion is not supported by simply looking at it. I restored it on that basis.

72.86.145.77 then again removed it, saying in his edit summary, "Undone for previous reason. I suspect that Nightscreamtalk is another screen name for the banned editor who added this nonsense to begin with." According to the article's edit history, an editor named User:SNIyer12 was the one who first added the material, in a set of three edits on June 18 and July 8 of last year. I am not SNLyer12, never heard of him until today, and have never engaged in sockpuppetry. Anyone who looks through my edit history can see the extent of the work I've done on many different 9/11-related articles, which I began to take an interest in when I first starting taking photos of the names at the National 9/11 Memorial's North Pool and South Pool. I have no interest in hockey, or sports at all. 72.86.145.77, for his/her part, offers nothing in the way of evidence for this accusation, which is not only a blatant violation of WP:AGF, but irrelevant to the content issue in question. But if anyone wishes to open a CheckUser case and check my IPs, I welcome it.

72.86.145.77 also left this unsigned message on my talk page:

Hey fool, the NHL link does not mention either Krasne or Bailey. It's irrelevant. The fact that you're digging in to retain it, irrelevant as it is, suggests to me that you like to bicker just to bicker. The link you refer to as reporting by "CBS News" is just a local story by a CBS TV affiliate in LA. It's very unseemly to devote that large a proportion of a short article to nearly meaningless gesture by a self-aggrandizing fan 10 years after Bailey's death. I note that it took more than a year for anybody even to add this trivial info to Bailey's article. Bailey's career matters to hockey fans. Krasne doesn't.

Putting aside the fact that 72.86.145.77 is now violating WP:CIV and WP:NPA by addressing another editor as "fool", the NHL matter is a minor issue. The other source in question is NESN, not NHL, so that was a minor error on my part. I checked the sources, saw that two of them mentioned Krasne, and accidentally referred incorrectly to one of them.

That the CBS source is "just a local story by a CBS TV affiliate in LA" is completely irrelevant. CBS is still CBS, and thus, it's a reliable source by any interpretation of WP:IRS, and as aforementioned, that affiliate even has its own Misplaced Pages article.

As for 72.86.145.77's note that the event happened more than 10 years after Bailey's death, and that the material was added "more than a year" after the event in question, the second claim is false, and the first is irrelevant. The material, as mentioned above, was added in June and July of last year, in edits that were made one week and one month after the Finals, not "more than a year". But this is moot anyway. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, and a constant work in progress. It is not a newspaper, so when a given event happened is completely irrelevant to whether mention of it merits inclusion. If it did, then you'd have to eliminate mention of any event that occurred earlier than the year 2000, from the creation of the universe to the election of Vladimir Putin, since Misplaced Pages didn't exist prior to 2001. To get an idea the implications of this, consider that the Memorial itself did not open until September 12, 2011, which is precisely 10 years after Bailey died. Should mention of it be removed?

As for 72.86.145.77's comment that "Bailey's career matters to hockey fans. Krasne doesn't", again, the effect that that career had on his fans is what the word "legacy" means. That two different reliable secondary sources thought it was significant enough to report on it, in relation to a significant series of SC Finals, means that it is not unreasonable for us to do so. Tell me, 72.86.145.77, what do you think goes in a legacy section?

I welcome input from 72.86.145.77 and others. If a consensus of editors thinks it should be left out, then I'll accept that. For now:

Keep Nightscream (talk) 17:58, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Keep I've got no issue with the content and it's appropriately sourced. It's no more or less relevant that Dennis Leary wearing a t-shirt on his TV show, as far as I'm concerned. PKT(alk) 18:22, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• While this is a relatively minor event in the grand scheme of things, it's just given one short paragraph and thus isn't getting undue weight, and while I've changed the citation information to KCBS-TV itself, rather than claiming the entire CBS network as the publisher, it is validly sourced. Either way, I really don't see this as a problem, and don't think it's worth the ruckus that the anon is raising over it. If it were being placed right in the lede, as if it were the single most important thing that a reader needed to know about Bailey, then there'd be a more obvious issue — but placed where it is and written how it's written, there's simply nothing wrong with it. Keep. Bearcat (talk) 18:31, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Keep/Explanation The CBS source cannot be claimed as if it was the entire network in this case; CBS Corporation maintains a singular website for its local media properties in each city where it owns television and/or radio stations. In Los Angeles, CBS owns KCBS-TV (which is the only property that is part of the CBS television network in that city, being an owned-and-operated station of the network), KCAL-TV (an independent station which shares a news department and some programming with KCBS) and five radio stations such as KNX (AM), KCBS-FM and KROQ-FM. A news article from a television or radio station in any event counts as a reliable source. TVtonightOKC (talk) 19:20, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Keep While in itself, it seems a pretty insignificant event, it has been covered by reputable, independent sources and speaks in a way to the importance and legacy of the man. DoubleBlue (talk) 19:52, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

That's a very long way of saying "I want to have my way." So very, very important to keep the nearly irrelevant information, because nobody else besides Krasne thought to honor Bailey after the SC win. Oh, they did?

"Eleven years after the Los Angeles Kings lost two of their own in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the team made sure the families of Garnet "Ace" Bailey and amateur scout Mark Bavis had their day with the Stanley Cup.

Bailey, the team's director of pro scouting, and Bavis had been heading from Boston to Los Angeles for the Kings' organizational meetings when their United 175 flight was hijacked and crashed into the south tower of the World Trade Center.

On Sunday, the Cup was brought to the 9/11 memorial at Ground Zero in New York, where the families of Bailey and Bavis got a chance to take part in the first championship in franchise history. Kings general manager Dean Lombardi was also there.

The Kings arranged to bring the Cup to the memorial in New York and posed it there, next to the engraved names of Bailey and Bavis. Some fans had paid their own tributes to the two soon after L.A.'s triumph in June by putting Kings caps and other team memorabilia near their names at the memorial."

http://www.nhl.com/ice/blogpost.htm?id=11596#

Such officious, self-appointed guardians of the Misplaced Pages flame. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.86.138.10 (talk) 21:06, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

1. Cole, Mike (June 15, 2012). "Kings Fan Honors Fallen Scouts With Stanley Cup Champions Tribute at 9/11 Memorial (Photo)". NESN.com. Retrieved June 18, 2012.
2. Zupke, Curtis (June 14, 2012). "Kings and fans celebrate franchise's first Stanley Cup". NHL.com. National Hockey League. Retrieved June 18, 2012.
3. "New Yorker Remembers Kings Scouts Killed On 9/11 During Celebration". CBSLosAngeles.com. CBS. June 15, 2012. Retrieved June 18, 2012.

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