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Many of these questions arise frequently on the talk page concerning the September 11 attacks.

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United States: September 11 / History Top‑importance

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• Noam Cohen (11 September 2011). "On Misplaced Pages, Echoes of 9/11 'Edit Wars'". The New York Times.

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The associated conspiracy theories are not mentioned at all on this article, other than a brief one sentence acknowledgement of their existence under ‘Aftermath - Cultural’. This is despite the extensive 9/11 conspiracy theories article and even an article describing how many people believe these (Opinion polls about 9/11 conspiracy theories)). I ask whether these should be covered in this article in further detail, assuming it is done properly and neutrally.

• Part 1: Should a new section be placed in the article that explains the presence of these conspiracy theories, describes some of the more common ones and assesses their popularities and reputations?
• Part 2: Should a short sentence be placed in the lead to say that conspiracy theories exist?

As an example, the article Assassination of John F. Kennedy includes both a section corresponding to Part 1 and a sentence in the lead corresponding to Part 2. 86.133.243.146 (talk) 01:15, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Repeated attempts to post puerile nonsense about death rays from space and the like have been appropriately deleted from this talk page. Jonathunder (talk) 17:07, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Response to part 1

Response to part 2

Threaded discussion

No, the single sentence in the article as of this revision is plenty. See also the FAQ and the (extensive) talk page archives. VQuakr (talk) 07:13, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Talk page archives show constant objections from users.. quite a few users desire more mention of these alternatives opinions. For example, placing it under 'cultural' section was objected, then not mentioning the deception from certain government organizations which caused Congress to consider filing criminal charges, etc.. and this being one of the reasons for alternative views to be strengthened, etc... many many objections... 71.194.230.179 (talk) 16:32, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

This article deals with facts not fantasies. We have the 9/11 conspiracy theory articles which deal with the fantasies.--MONGO 16:47, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

@71.194.230.179: Yes, but by people who don't understand our policy on WP:NPOV. To give undue weight to wild, conspiracy theories is a violation of NPOV. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:53, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

isn't this a fact? Oh, Washington Post, you are right, it must be a fantasy. :P 71.194.230.179 (talk) 16:57, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Violation of NPOV is ignoring the views of nearly half of population, and all the facts that don't go along the mainstream view presented in the article. 71.194.230.179 (talk) 16:59, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Speaking of policies, why is Misplaced Pages:SUBPOV being violated here? 71.194.230.179 (talk) 17:07, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

We provide coverage based on reliable sources and subject to our policy on fringe theories, not poll results. Why do you think SUBPOV is being violated? VQuakr (talk) 18:09, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Why do you think what was quoted above is unreliable or fringe? Your comment makes no sense. 64.134.169.187 (talk) 22:44, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

VQuak's comment is quite clear. Misplaced Pages relies on confirmed sources, not polls or conspiracy theories. David J Johnson (talk) 08:58, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

There are many confirmed sources on disagreeing facts (i.e. those linked above) as well as conspiracy theories. In regards to polls, I thought that that was one way of figuring out what mainstream is: Mainstream is the common current thought of the majority. Nobody here talks about inclusion of information from unconfirmed 'conspiracy theories', but only of inclusion of verified and well written about topics. Why is it that some users fail to observe this distinction? 216.80.122.223 (talk) 20:50, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I peeked in the above conversation, and have to say that I do agree that the conspiracy theories are not given the weight they are due in this very lengthy article. It is deserving of its own subsection, and I say this after reading the[REDACTED] policies on WP:NPOV and WP:FRINGE. Even the weather has its own subsection! In fact, the source given for the current single sentence about the conspiracy theories, is itself a lengthy diatribe devoted to the subject at hand. And while I was inspecting the source, I found that it does not say anything at all about the level of support from the historian or scientist community. So while the reference does help to establish the notability of the subject, it does not actually support the sentence in the[REDACTED] article. Smitty121981 (talk) 07:42, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

That's because there is no level of support from sane historians or sane scientists. Of course there are the Wackos and Charlatans for dah "truth"...um.--MONGO 11:26, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

um... your biased position has been made clear: any scientist who agrees with your personal beliefs is "sane" and any scientist that disagrees is a "Wacko" without regard for their actual status, such as having a prominent position in a major university.

When we actually take an objective look at the existing literature, we find that there are several peer-reviewed articles/letters published in scientific/engineering journals that lend credence to various aspects (but certainly not all) of the conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11. But I am not here to argue the strength/weaknesses of these theories. I am here to state emphatically that given this level of professional involvement, one sentence is simply not enough coverage in an article of this length. Allow me to quote from the first source: "In response to the U.S. government’s official account of the attacks of September 11, 2001, hundreds of officials, academics, and professionals have publicly expressed their objections." Smitty121981 (talk) 16:21, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

We already have an article that talks about the insane ramblings of terminated professors....its. called 9/11 conspiracy theories and that's not the only article we have to examine their opinions. We link to that article from this one....that's food enough. You conspiracy theory POV pushers are never happy...you always want more of your nonsense in the article.--MONGO 17:06, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I am not here to "push a POV" -- unlike yourself, I have avoided stating my personal opinion as to the validity of the conspiracy theories, and have relied upon reliable sources instead to make my point that they deserve more than a single sentence mention. I noticed that you completely ignored the quote I posted about hundreds of professionals, officials, and academics questioning the official story of 9/11. Here's four more peer-reviewed publications that research aspects of the "conspiracy theory". Smitty121981 (talk) 17:48, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

The Bentham nano-thermite letter (it was not an article) has been rejected many times, and Bentham is looked upon with great skepticism in Misplaced Pages at large. The nano-thermite argument remains a fringe topic taken seriously only within the Truther echo chamber and has no place in this article. The Manwell paper, according to its abstract, as about discourse in public policy relating to state crimes, and as far as I can tell doesn't revolve around 9/11 conspiracy theories. While fringe elements in academia and some professions have endorsed conspiracy theories, they do not represent a significant view and are not taken seriously by mainstream media, their parent institutions or their professional organizations. Acroterion (talk) 18:18, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Totally agree with Acroterion's comments above and also MONGO's contribution. This article deals with facts and not conspiracy theories. David J Johnson (talk) 19:14, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

About the Harrit et al paper - when you stated it "has been rejected many times", why did you not provide any sources to verify the validity of these rejections and why do you think a rejection of a single paper makes the topic of 9/11 conspiracy irrelevant? "Bentham is looked upon with great skepticism in Misplaced Pages at large." And if Bentham was the only publisher represented in the nine excellent sources I provided, you might have a point. However, only two of the sources were published by Bentham. Look closer at the Manwell paper, it portrays 9/11 as a possible state crime against democracy right there in the abstract, and the full text can be found through google Scholar. What about the incredibly relevant quote I posted from it that so far all three of you have ignored?

In conclusion, I have gathered several disparate sources that together make a strong case that there is substantial professional debate on the subject, therefore making the topic of 9/11 Conspiracy Theories deserving of it's own sub-section in this article. I gladly welcome sources to the contrary, but thus far all criticisms of my stance have ranged from the unsourced to outright ad hominem attacks. Smitty121981 (talk) 19:25, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

1. Manwell, Laurie A. "In denial of Democracy: Social psychological implications for public discourse on state crimes against democracy post-9/11." American behavioral scientist 53.6 (2010): 848-884.
2. Ryan, Kevin R., James R. Gourley, and Steven E. Jones. "Environmental anomalies at the World Trade Center: evidence for energetic materials." The Environmentalist 29.1 (2009): 56-63.
3. Grabbe, Crockett. "Discussion of “Progressive Collapse of the World Trade Center: A Simple Analysis” by KA Seffen." Journal of engineering mechanics 136.4 (2010): 538-539.
4. Harrit, Niels H., et al. "Active thermitic material discovered in dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center catastrophe." Open Chemical Physics Journal 2 (2009): 7-31.
5. Jones, Steven E., et al. "Fourteen points of agreement with official government reports on the World Trade Center destruction." Open Civil Engineering Journal 2.1 (2008): 35-40.
6. Szuladziński, Gregory, Anthony Szamboti, and Richard Johns. "Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis." International Journal of Protective Structures 4.2 (2013): 117-126.
7. Grabbe, Crockett. "Discussion of “Why the Observed Motion History of World Trade Center Towers Is Smooth” by Jia-Liang Le and ZP Bazant." Journal of Engineering Mechanics: 1298-1300.
8. Björkman, Anders. "Discussion of “What Did and Did Not Cause Collapse of World Trade Center Twin Towers in New York?” by Zdeněk P. Bažant, Jia-Liang Le, Frank R. Greening, and David B. Benson." Journal of engineering mechanics 136.7 (2010): 933-934.
9. Poteshman, Allen M. "Unusual Option Market Activity and the Terrorist Attacks of September 11, 2001*." The Journal of Business 79.4 (2006): 1703-1726.

"Sources to verify the validity of its rejection" amounts to asking for proof of a negative: the talkpage archives discuss the issue at great length, with the conclusion that is is an interesting mention of a fringe theory that has been inflated by conspiracy enthusiasts into a "peer reviewed paper", which it is not. The abstract I saw of Manwell didn't even mention 9/11, and it doesn't appear from what I saw that acceptance of a conspiracy theory is central to that publications content. Bazant et al are no friends of the conspiracy theorists, the Szuladziński et al paper is simply a critique of Bazant and not an endorsement of conspiracy theories, the Poteshman insider trading is discussed and at September 11 attacks advance-knowledge conspiracy theories and rejected by the 9/11 Commission as explained. The sources you've produced either reject conspiracy theories or give them scant mention, apart from the Bentham letter, whose "nano-thermite" has itself been disputed as indistinguishable from normal oxide primer. The common thread in all of the conspiracy theories (and this is a classic feature of any such theory, not just 9/11) is cherry-picking inconsistencies and granting them undue prominence, or of extensive confirmation bias. There is no coherent narrative to any of this, and no support in credible academic or journalism sources. Acroterion (talk) 20:31, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Acroterion for acknowledging and addressing the sources that I took the time to compile! I'd like to briefly respond to your points.

• Harrit et al - I see that you are referencing the consensus on the wiki about the paper, so I accept that it is currently not considered a reliable source for this article.
• Manwell - Here is the link to the journal listing. Specifically, the abstract states "Terror management theory and system justification theory are used to explain how preexisting beliefs can interfere with people’s examination of evidence for state crimes against democracy (SCADs), specifically in relation to the events of September 11, 2001, and the war on terror in Afghanistan and Iraq." Later on in the article, they state "In response to the U.S. government’s official account of the attacks of September 11, 2001, hundreds of officials, academics, and professionals have publicly expressed their objections."
• Bazant - I absolutely agree with you that "Bazant et al are no friends of the conspiracy theorists", and that's why I think it is significant that three separate authors have published discussions critical of his work in the same journal (JEM) in which he published his famous paper on the collapse of the Twin Towers (Gourley(not listed above),Grabbe,Bjorkman). And it is significant that a full paper was published in a separate journal that, as you said, was also critical of Bazant's work (Szuladziński).
• I listed the Poteshman paper because insider trading is part of the conspiracy theory and more recent research has come to similar conclusions. Smitty121981 (talk) 22:22, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

1. Gourley, James R. "Discussion of “Mechanics of Progressive Collapse: Learning from World Trade Center and Building Demolitions” by Zdenĕk P. Bažant and Mathieu Verdure." Journal of Engineering Mechanics 134.10 (2008): 915-916.
2. Wong, Wing-Keung, Howard E. Thompson, and Kweehong Teh. "Was there Abnormal Trading in the S&P 500 Index Options Prior to the September 11 Attacks?." Available at SSRN 1588523 (2010).

So, in effect, it's some vague allusions you've pulled from an abstract and papers that ignore or dismiss the conspiracy theories (criticism of Bazant is not acceptance of CT), as support for inclusion of a CT discussion in the article, despite minimal sourcing and nonexistent support from scholarly and journalism sources? Acroterion (talk) 23:00, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support adding 2-3 paragraph section on the conspiracy theories and it looks like we have sufficient support for the addition. I would suggest posting your proposed text here, and we can tweak before adding it to the article. Cla68 (talk) 22:09, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Cla68, I will write something up and post it on the talk page for feedback.Smitty121981 (talk) 22:26, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

If by "sufficient support" you mean high-quality references, there's a long way to go. Specifically, the often-asserted claim that AE 9/11 is something other than a fringe group is countered by this in . The Guardian, hardly a friend of the US government, has this , which also mentions the refutation of the insider trading rumor. Where the mainstream media (which we depend on to establish weight) notices 9/11 conspiracies at all, that example and this companion to the Guardian piece , which uses the word "preposterous", are typical examples. Acroterion (talk) 22:28, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

@Cla68: This is the wrong place to hold this discussion. Even if there was WP:Local consensus for this suggestion, it would be completely meaningless until WP:NPOV were changed. I suggest that you open an WP:RfC and lobby to have NPOV changed. After you've convinced the community to change this policy, then come back and talk to us. Until then, this suggestion is completely meaningless. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:39, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

AQFK, I note that your objection is based on your interpretation of WP policy. You appear to be trying to use "argument from authority". I and a few others don't agree with you. Again, I welcome Smitty's proposed addition and we can comment on it. Cla68 (talk) 22:44, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

No, WP:NPOV is very clear: "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Misplaced Pages regardless of whether it is true or not and regardless of whether you can prove it or not, except perhaps in some ancillary article. " We don't get to override policy just because we feel like it. If you don't like Misplaced Pages's rules and are unwilling to change them, then please feel free to fork the project. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:53, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose There is no consensus for adding conspiracy theories to this article. There is already a article for these ramblings and that is where such "theories" should stay. David J Johnson (talk) 22:20, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• @Smitty121981: Allow me to fully quote from your first source:

In response to the U.S. government’s official account of the attacks of September 11, 2001, hundreds of officials, academics, and professionals have publicly expressed their objections. Most recently, Brigham Young University physics Professor Steven Jones, who was forced into early retirement for his work analyzing World Trade Center (WTC) dust for evidence of thermite residue, an explosive used in controlled demolition, published several articles with his colleagues—in the Open Civil Engineering Journal, the Environmentalist, and the Open Chemical Physics Journal—countering several popular myths about the WTC collapses and findings of chemical energetic materials in the recovered debris (Harrit et al., 2009; Jones, Legge, Ryan, Szamboti, & Gourley, 2008b; Ryan, Gourley, & Jones, 2008.)

— pg. 857, Manwell, L. A. (2010). "In denial of Democracy: Social psychological implications for public discourse on state crimes against democracy post-9/11" (PDF). American behavioral scientist. 53 (6): 848–884. doi:10.1177/0002764209353279.

And Manwell's sources are... (drum roll)... the website http://patriotsquestion911.com/, David Ray Griffin's 2004 book The New Pearl Harbor (note 4, pg. 874, ), and, of course, the usual suspects of Jones, Ryan, Harrit, Gourley, Szamboti, etc (rimshot).

The "discussion" comments by the non-qualified, non-specialists, Björkman, Gourley, Grabbe, and Szuladziński (yes, it's actually four) are best summed up with some quotes from the closures to those discussions:

Closure to Björkman :

• The discusser's interest is appreciated. However, he presents no meaningful mechanics argument against the gravity driven progressive collapse model of our paper. His claim that "the authors' theory is wrong" is groundless.
• The discusser claims that no differential equations are required to model the collapse. This is incorrect.
• The discusser claims that the progressive collapse model we developed in the paper does not consider the energy required to compress the rubble. This claim is absurd.
• The discusser further claims that, for the continuation of the crush-down phase, the columns in the part C (upper part) must be assumed to be in contact with the columns of part A (lower part). This claim is erroneous.
• Based on the profile of the rubble pile shown in Fig. 3(b) of the paper, the discusser estimates the rubble density to have an unrealistic value (3.075 t/m). Since this figure is only schematic, his point is meaningless.

Closure to Gourley :

• The interdisciplinary interests of Gourley, a chemical engineer with a doctorate in jurisprudence, are appreciated. Although none of the discusser's criticisms is scientifically correct, his discussion provides a welcome opportunity to dispel doubts recently voiced by some in the community outside structural mechanics and engineering. It also provides an opportunity to rebut a previous similar discussion widely circulated on the Internet, co-authored by S. E. Jones, Associate Professor of Physics at Brigham Young University and a cold fusion specialist.
• Although everyone is certainly entitled to express his or her opinion on any issue of concern, interested critics should realize that, to help discern the truth about an engineering problem such as the WTC collapse, it is necessary to become acquainted with the relevant material from an appropriate textbook on structural mechanics. Otherwise critics run the risk of misleading and wrongly influencing the public with incorrect information.

Closure to Grabbe :

• The discusser's interest is appreciated. However, his objections against the analysis of gravity-driven progressive collapse of the Word Trade Center (WTC) towers by have no scientific merit,
• It is surprising to see that references to online postings and an online journal not subjected to mechanics reviewing are cited as evidence. A further problem of discussion is that it is written without the use of the standard simplifying hypotheses of structural mechanics, which make the structural analysis feasible, are justified by vast experience, and represent the essential content of structural mechanics courses and textbooks. The discusser's objections to the gravity-driven collapse analysis presented in the original paper are invalid. His conclusion that "The analysis by Le and Bazant is incorrect" is groundless.

Closure to Szuladzinski :

• The interest of Szuladzinski, a specialist in homeland security, is appreciated. After close scrutiny, however, his calculations are found to be incorrect,
• Although closing comments similar to those in the preceding discussion could be repeated, let it suffice to say that the discusser's conclusion that "the motion will be arrested during the damaged story collapse and the building will stand" is incorrect.
  Thus, the recent allegations of controlled demolition are baseless.

The claims made above that the sources provided represent the gathering of "several disparate sources that together make a strong case that there is substantial professional debate on the subject, therefore making the topic of 9/11 Conspiracy Theories deserving of it's own sub-section in this article" is not supported. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 10:52, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time for the lengthy and constructive response. I am aware of the published rebuttals to the discussions, but this just further establishes that there is currently a professional debate(i.e. published in prominent engineering journal). Also, Manwell's interpretation of those sources passed peer-review. Please read my suggested change below, I think I worded it in a way that makes it clear why these references are applicable.Smitty121981 (talk) 16:46, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

So here's my proposed change, which I feel is consistent with the rest of the article. This would be a sub-section in the "Effects" chapter, just like the Weather sub-section. I tried to take into account the concerns brought up in this conversation: I kept it much shorter than the suggested 2-3 paragraphs to avoid giving undue weight, I did not use any sources published by Bentham, I avoided any mention of thermite, I did make sure to include the two Guardian articles provided as well as several new sources from major news networks, and of course (despite preemptive claims to the contrary) I made every effort to maintain WP:NPOV.

Conspiracy Theories

Further information: 9/11 conspiracy theories

Conspiracy theories surrounding the events of 9/11 have become a wide-spread social phenomenon. Conspiracy advocates state that there is evidence of insider trading before the attack, that public objections have been raised by hundreds of professionals and officials, and that criticisms have been made of the prevailing theory that the WTC destruction was the result of fire-induced progressive collapse. None of the 9/11 conspiracy theories have been accepted by the academic and scientific communities, and several mainstream news sources have published full-length articles dedicated to rebuking the most common theories.

1. ^ Norman, Joshua (September 11, 2011). "9/11 conspiracy theories won't stop". CBS News. CBS Corporation.
2. McGreal, Chris (September 5, 2011). "September 11 conspiracy theories continue to abound". The Guardian. Retrieved 13 August 2014.
3. Poteshman, Allen M. "Unusual Option Market Activity and the Terrorist Attacks of September 11, 2001*." The Journal of Business 79.4 (2006): 1703-1726.
4. Wong, Wing-Keung, Howard E. Thompson, and Kweehong Teh. "Was there Abnormal Trading in the S&P 500 Index Options Prior to the September 11 Attacks?." Available at SSRN 1588523 (2010).
5. Manwell, Laurie A. "In denial of Democracy: Social psychological implications for public discourse on state crimes against democracy post-9/11." American behavioral scientist 53.6 (2010): 848-884.
6. "Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth". C-SPAN. August 1, 2014. Retrieved August 13, 2014.
7. Szuladziński, Gregory, Anthony Szamboti, and Richard Johns. "Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis." International Journal of Protective Structures 4.2 (2013): 117-126.
8. Grabbe, Crockett (2012). ”Discussion of “Why the Observed Motion History of World Trade Center Towers Is Smooth” by Jia-Liang Le and Zdeněk P. Bažant.” J. Eng. Mech., 138(10), 1298–1300.
9. Björkman, Anders (2010). ”Discussion of “What Did and Did Not Cause Collapse of World Trade Center Twin Towers in New York?” by Zdeněk P. Bažant, Jia-Liang Le, Frank R. Greening, and David B. Benson.” J. Eng. Mech., 136(7), 933–934.
10. Grabbe, Crockett (2010). ”Discussion of “Progressive Collapse of the World Trade Center: A Simple Analysis” by K. A. Seffen.” J. Eng. Mech., 136(4), 538–539.
11. Gourley, James R. (2008). ”Discussion of “Mechanics of Progressive Collapse: Learning from World Trade Center and Building Demolitions” by Zdenĕk P. Bažant and Mathieu Verdure.” J. Eng. Mech., 134(10), 915–916.
12. Editors, The. "Debunking the 9/11 Myths: Special Report". Popular Mechanics. Retrieved August 13, 2014. {{cite web}}: |last= has generic name (help)
13. McGreal, Chris (September 5, 2011). "9/11 conspiracy theories debunked". The Guardian. Retrieved August 13, 2014.
14. "9/11 conspiracy theories". BBC Magazine. August 29, 2011. Retrieved August 13, 2014.

Smitty121981 (talk) 16:46, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Your sources don't support the proposed text. "Despite their persistence..."? What? The only reason 9/11 conspiracy theories have not been accepted by the academic and scientific communities is because they are bullshit... you know... conspiracy theories. Thank you for wasting my time. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 19:43, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Actually, "persistent" did come from the sources: "Among the most persistent post-9/11 rumors was..." and "So what is the attraction of conspiracy theories? And why are they so persistent?". However, I am certainly open to civil suggestions for improvement (no one asked you to spend any time here). Smitty121981 (talk) 21:18, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

The persistence of conspiracy theories is not related to their lack of acceptance by the academic and scientific communities. Conspiracy theories are rejected because they are incorrect, unsupported, and non-factual. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 01:52, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. I will change the wording to be less open for interpretation.Smitty121981 (talk) 13:55, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose including this nonsense. There's already a page for this junk, and it's not this one. This article is about facts, not fringe nonsense. Toa Nidhiki05 18:07, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose above wording, as it does not make clear that these conspiracy theories are bollocks. More generally, I find it unlikely that I would be convinced that any expansion of coverage of CTs in this article was editorially favorable. VQuakr (talk) 20:26, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
• Strongly opposeAs I have previously stated above, there is already a page for these fringe theories, which have no place and need no reference in a factual article. David J Johnson (talk) 20:27, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

So far, the criticisms seem to be confusing notability for credibility. I am certainly aware that the article is about facts - that's what the 14 reliable sources are for. Furthermore, my suggestion is not unwarranted: At the top of this talk page, it states "There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article" and the suggestion there is to expand the coverage of Conspiracy Theories: "I'd at least suggest that a paragraph or two be added to cover these; given the prevalence of these theories, it seems a shame to not really address them." Smitty121981 (talk) 21:18, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, as a group 9/11 conspiracy theories are notable. That is why we have an article about them. That does not mean that they are going to be covered in increased depth in this article. VQuakr (talk) 02:38, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. It's a good start on a paragraph, but the text shouldn't be in WP's voice. Instead of, "These theories are fueled, in part, by evidence of insider trading before the attack", it should say something like, "Conspiracy advocates state that there is evidence of insider trading before the attack," and so on. Cla68 (talk) 22:28, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks so much for the helpful critique, the change has been made above. Do you have any suggestion on how to better word the "Despite their persistence" bit? I went through a lot of versions already as I was writing this and unfortunately that's the best I could come up with.Smitty121981 (talk) 23:03, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

• As ever, expanding on the conspiracy theories in this article would give undue weight to a fringe view. Tom Harrison 22:54, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

It sounds like a lot of people's minds are made up before even looking at what I wrote? Please take the time to absorb the references, I think I established the notability. If not, could you please give constructive criticism on how to better establish it?Smitty121981 (talk) 23:03, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

You want to see an expansion on the discussions of falsehoods in an article which discusses the known facts. You've already been shown that we already have entire articles dedicated to discussing those falsehoods...there isn't any reason to give undue weight to those falsehoods here.--MONGO 11:47, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Can you point out any "falsehoods" in the text I wrote for inclusion? If so, I will gladly revise it. Apparently, adding this one little section is all that stands in the way of Good Article status. Given this, I honestly cannot comprehend why most of the editors here are so vehemently opposed to the idea that they are willing to reject it without even taking the time to consider what I wrote. I know that 9/11 is emotional;[REDACTED] should not be. Smitty121981 (talk) 14:08, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Good or Featured article "status" are subjective issues and neither mean a thing in the scheme of things. If the only thing standing between this article and getting that "status" is inclusion of preposterous fantasies concocted by those morons who refer to themselves as Architects and Engineers for truth then that "status" is not welcomed. We have taken (more then you deserve) the time to examine and address your points, but you fail to see that there isn't any support for your changes. In fact, it's pretty obvious that you have zero interest in article improvement....all you want is your conspiracy theory bullshit in the article.--MONGO 19:00, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Well I'll be honest, I don't understand what all the "status" things mean. All I know is that what I am proposing is not 'bullshit', but is actually a suggestion for improvement on the top of this talk page, and I have been trying very hard to be civil about my approach (sorry if it wasn't). I did what I thought I should do, which is start a conversation here rather than modifying the article directly. A review of the discussion will show that I have listened to several editors who have made constructive criticisms, so clearly I am interested in article improvement. If a reasonable amount of time goes by and I do not receive enough support to make the change in the article, I will drop the subject - until then I have the right to civilly take part in the discussion. Some comments from editors here are sounding a lot like taking ownership. Smitty121981 (talk) 20:05, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Oppose Cla68's comment concerning the use of Misplaced Pages's voice is correct. Apart from that, the paragraph gives undue weight to an inconsistent set of rumors and armchair theorizing described in mainstream sources as "preposterous." Misplaced Pages, as an encyclopedia, doesn't give much weight to the preposterous, and really shouldn't give any. "Hundreds of professionals and officials" gives false standing to academics and professionals who have strayed outside their specific expertise to espouse easily disprovable fallacies. All professional fields have fringe enthusiasts. The trading rumors have long been disproved as unrelated and should not be discussed as if they are credible. It's long been my view that Misplaced Pages is too easygoing about granting even superficial credibility to conspiracy theories in general and the inclusion of fringe viewpoints in the name of a false balance, while the mutable nature of Misplaced Pages encourages people to try to make these theories become a ratified fact via a credulous account in Misplaced Pages. Acroterion (talk) 01:37, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the feedback. I like Cla68's new phrasing below, which revised the whole "hundreds..." bit, is that any better? Also, is there a reliable source about the trading rumors being disproved? I ask because two separate authors in two separate journals came to similar conclusions, and I know you already brought up the 9/11 Commission Report(2004) but it was published before either of those papers (2006,2010). The Guardian vaguely mentioned something about it, but not enough to follow up on, and Google didn't turn up anything for me either. Smitty121981 (talk) 05:44, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I found a third reliable source for the insider trading, in which the authors describe several "transactions on the CBOE which can be associated with informed trading activities" with 13 of them being "related to the terrorist attacks of September 11th" Smitty121981 (talk) 20:12, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

1. Chesney, Marc and Crameri, Remo and Mancini, Loriano, "Detecting Informed Trading Activities in the Options Markets" (2010). Swiss Finance Institute Research Paper No. 11-42. Pg. 6. Available at SSRN: http://ssrn.com/abstract=1522157

You found an academic source that speculates using statistics: it postulates insider trading, against actual investigation of the trades that concluded that the acknowledged unusual trading was entirely unrelated. It's a good example of never letting the facts get in the way of one's thesis. From the 9/11 report: "A single U.S.-based institutional investor with no conceivable ties to al Qaeda purchased 95 percent of the UAL puts on September 6 as part of a trading strategy that also included buying 115,000 shares of American on September 10. Similarly, much of the seemingly suspicious trading in American on September 10 was traced to a specific U.S.-based options trading newsletter, faxed to its subscribers on Sunday, September 9, which recommended these trades...", which the paper nevertheless attributes to foreknowledge. More to the point, it is a narrow discussion of the trading patterns, not of the conspiracy theory. Acroterion (talk) 00:51, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

So there is one reliable source from 2004 that came to the conclusion that insider trading did not occur (9/11 Commission report). Then there are three later reliable sources (Poteshman 2006, Wong 2010, Chesney 2010), written by different authors and published in different journals, that all came to the conclusion that insider trading did occur. This shows, if nothing else, that there is legitimate controversy and it is not a settled matter. The 9/11 Commission Report, no matter how reliable, simply cannot 'erase' legitimate research that is completed years later. Plenty of sources include insider trading as part of the conspiracy theories, including The Guardian article which you provided. Maybe there is a different way to word the sentence so that it fits more with your line of thinking? Smitty121981 (talk) 07:17, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Actually, it can. The trades and traders were investigated and no link to the 9/11 conspiracy was found. Whether one can speculate using statistics is interesting, but statistical analysis and drawing speculative conclusions don't trump an actual investigation. The investigation flatly said there was no link between the trades and the event: the papers say that the trades look like they were linked, and ignore the fact that that was disproved by a criminal investigation. Acroterion (talk) 12:21, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

@Acroterion: I'm sorry but that is cherrypicking. To further address your point, the third source (Chesney) is a thorough research paper written by members of the the Swiss Banking Institute, the Swiss Finance Institute, and the University of Zurich - and these experts "perform an analysis at the level of single option contracts." In contrast to regression models they "use a different approach and empirically show the information content in specific trades." They did not just analyze trading related to 9/11 but across a time period of several years and state, " approach enables us to detect informed trades which would not have been detected when analyzing a period around a specific type of event." Finally, they link several specific instances of informed trading to 9/11:"In total we detect 37 transactions on the CBOE which can be associated with informed trading activities: ...13 related to the terrorist attacks of September 11th" and "For the banking sector we detected 14 informed trading activities,... 5 to the terrorist attacks of September 11th" There is simply no way that all of this research is somehow invalidated by a footnote in a report compiled several years earlier. Smitty121981 (talk) 19:28, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment Here is how I would word it: Conspiracy theories surrounding the events of 9/11 have become a wide-spread social phenomenon and have been embraced by a number of commentators, public officials, and celebrities. Conspiracy advocates state that there is evidence of insider trading before the attack and have criticized the prevailing theory that the WTC destruction was the result of a fire-induced progressive collapse. None of the 9/11 conspiracy theories have been accepted by the academic and scientific communities, and several mainstream news sources have published full-length articles dedicated to rebuking the most common theories. Cla68 (talk) 22:10, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

The policy problems with this are manifold, but WP:GEVAL and WP:UNDUE are a good start. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 22:49, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support. I like the new wording! Thanks! Smitty121981 (talk) 05:12, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose really the variety, type, and incredulity of the multitude of distinct CTs don't justify "widespread" description. Lumping all the the crackpots into a single box that they themselves oppose in order to gain a semblance of notability is improper use of how fringe views should be handled. Misplaced Pages cannot be the place where these dots are connected into monolithic view when they are really tiny fringe groups that all blame different groups. Combining Israel with Space Lasers to Thermite to WTC7 CTs and lumping them together to firm up the notion of "widespread" is misleading. We really have a number of CT's each with a tiny fringe that are unrelated to the other tiny fringe groups. Whence, none are widespread. --DHeyward (talk) 07:30, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

"Lumping all the the crackpots into a single box" was done for us, by the sources. It is our job as editors to report what the sources say, no to re-interpret them. Even the title of source 2 is "September 11 conspiracy theories continue to abound". 'Abound' meaning "exist in large numbers or amounts." Are there any reliable sources that suggest the 9/11 conspiracy theories are anything but wide-spread? Smitty121981 (talk) 14:22, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

The plural of "theories" is what abounds, not adherents that are credible sources for each of those theories. The people that believe are Barbara Olson was abducted by aliens is incredibly small and irrelevant. The internet is abound with hundreds of whacky theories but none have depth.. --DHeyward (talk) 19:59, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Here's a reliable source which states: "there is ample evidence that some conspiracy theories are not at all confined to small segments of the population. Overseas, 'a 2002 Gallup Poll conducted in nine Islamic countries found that 61 percent of those surveyed thought that Muslims had nothing to do with the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.' ... The widespread belief that U.S. officials knowingly allowed 9/11 to happen or even brought it about may have hampered the government’s efforts to mobilize social resources and political support for measures against future terrorist attacks." Smitty121981 (talk) 22:30, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

1. Cass R. Sunstein & Adrian Vermeule, "Conspiracy Theories" (Public Law & Legal Theory Working Papers No. 199, 2008). PDF(accessed August 16, 2014)http://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1068&context=public_law_and_legal_theory

• Oppose Nobody takes these fringe theories seriously within the context of 9/11 and neither should this article (see WP:NPOV and WP:ONEWAY). Misplaced Pages strives to be a respected encyclopedia, and devoting an entire section in this article to conspiracy theories just makes us look silly. That is not to say that conspiracy theories aren't a topic worthy of serious study, but this is not the right article or even the right field of study. 9/11 is ultimately a subtopic of history which is a field studied by historians. 9/11 conspiracy theories is ultimately a subtopic of psychology which is a field studied by psychologists. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:12, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

@A Quest For Knowledge: Thanks for the feedback. The argument posed about being in the proper field of study is interesting. Certainly, psychology is a field that studies conspiracy theories. So is sociology. But some would say, so is history. In "Enemies Within The Culture of Conspiracy" published by Yale University Press, history professor Robert A Goldberg makes the case that "conspiracism essential to an understanding of history and society" and in a lecture by the same name published by the Florida Atlantic University's Dept. of History (PDF), he states:

I would like to talk about conspiracy thinking in recent American history; to talk about the who, how, and why of conspiracism. Particularly, I would like to spotlight the conspiracy theories that have emerged in the wake of the tragedy of 9-11. Befitting this lecture series, it speaks to a topic vital to an understanding of our society and to the health of our American Republic ... We live at a time in American history when conspiracy thinking permeates and colors our culture, beliefs, and speech; our very interpretation of history and current events. Understandably, many would point to the tragic events of 9-11 in explanation ... Yet, conspiracy thinking is not a recent phenomenon in American history. Nor will it dissolve as the pain and memory of 9-11 ebbs. Rather, it has deep roots in American life. It was and is a persistent and American tradition. "

Clearly Goldberg, and Cass Sunstein who I quoted above, place a great deal of weight on the conspiracy theories even though both have rejected the theories. Smitty121981 (talk) 18:15, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I think that you've missed my point about context. The reference in which you cite is not about history in general, it's about the history of conspiracy theories. What I said was that 9/11 conspiracy theories are rarely, if ever, mentioned within the context of the 9/11 terrorist attacks themselves. Instead, you provided a reference about 9/11 conspiracy theories within the context of the history of conspiracy theories. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:57, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I assume you are talking about sources like this? It's an interesting point, but how do you defend it given that sources like these also don't mention anything about any of the other sub-categories in the "Effects" chapter? "Health Issues"? Not there. "Weather"? Certainly not! "Economic"? "Cultural"? "Government Policy"? No, yet all of these sections are well-referenced. Clearly, the article already has scope well beyond the context of those particular type of sources to which you referred; and I have established that conspiracy theories have as much, or more, weight than these other current sub-categories. Imagine a source saying that a 3-day increase in the temperature range is "essential to an understanding of history and society"! Smitty121981 (talk) 20:19, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose Why are we doing this song and dance again? I'm going to wait a week and if consensus doesn't drastically change over the course of that week I'm just going to archive this, because there is absolutely nothing new here. --Tarage (talk) 04:05, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

@Tarage:, have you seen the I referenced above? That's very new (less than a month old). Also, the is fairly new (2013). A week sounds very reasonable to me, hopefully there is a middle ground that editors can find in that time. Smitty121981 (talk) 06:53, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

You'll have to do quite a bit of leg work to get consensus to change. I do not envy the work ahead of you. MONGO probably won't ever agree, but you might be able to sway some of the other editors if you remain civil. My problem with all of this is that the song and dance has not changed. The talk page archives are littered with POV arguments such as this one. Please take time and listen to what the editors have said and try your best to address them. Good luck. --Tarage (talk) 09:33, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Tarage for the friendly advice. Maybe if there wasn't a suggestion from experienced editors at the top of the talk page to expand the Conspiracy Theories section as a way to improve the article, less people would come to the talk page to suggest this very thing? Or maybe, just maybe, we can find a way to actually work together, and come up with something that (serious) editors can agree upon? Smitty121981 (talk) 16:34, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment To all the editors who keep linking to WP:FRINGE, here is what it says: "If discussed in an article about a mainstream idea, a theory that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight, and reliable sources must be cited that affirm the relationship of the marginal idea to the mainstream idea in a serious and substantial manner." By this point, I have cited literally dozens of reliable sources that do just this. Some editors challenged some of the sources (thank you) - these were either removed, or defended by finding other sources that agree. Remember, "References that debunk or disparage the fringe view can be adequate, as they establish the notability of the theory outside of its group of adherents." and most of my sources have been the ideal "Academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available". And here is what the WP:NPOV page says (emphasis mine): " Misplaced Pages aims to describe disputes, but not engage in them. Editors, while naturally having their own points of view, should strive in good faith to provide complete information, and not to promote one particular point of view over another. As such, the neutral point of view does not mean exclusion of certain points of view, but including all verifiable points of view which have sufficient due weight." I welcome serious and polite comments, preferably with specifics. Thank you. Smitty121981 (talk) 18:55, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:FRINGE, WP:NPOV, and WP:V. The main problem with the proposals above is that they violate our guidelines on fringe theories, and our policies on neutral point of view and verifiability by presenting 9/11 conspiracy theories as if they are part of some on going debate among qualified professionals or scholars in the appropriate fields (e.g., labeling the known facts as the "prevailing theory", or by citing submitted journal comments by well known, non-qualified, non-specialist, conspiracy theorists as if they carried any weight, etc.). The "theories" advanced by the "truth movement" have been debunked, dismissed, discarded, or ignored by effectively all of the published, mainstream, authoritative, and reliable sources on the topic. The coverage of these conspiracy theories in reliable sources does mean that they satisfy WP:NOTABLE, and are thus acceptable for possible inclusion in Misplaced Pages. However, satisfying the requirements for possible inclusion does not make any of the claims made by adherents notable for anything other than being conspiracy theories. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 08:59, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for acknowledging that I have established some notability! Hopefully now we can work on finding a wording that can be agreed upon. In response to your criticisms, it seems like you might not have seen the new C-SPAN source? They clearly do not "debunk, dismiss, discard, or ignore" the conspiracy theories, rather they give a prominent adherent an entire 45 minute segment of Washington Journal to present his theories. Also, it is a fact that several authors have published critiques in major engineering journals, whether or not you think their critiques are valid. The editors of the journals apparently found them sufficiently qualified for publication. The real question you hit on though is how to describe what are they critiquing? I think "prevailing theory" usually would imply a great deal of certainty... however, I do understand the concern because in the context of this paragraph the word 'theories' is also being used to refer to concepts that are considered nonfactual, and the current wording might seem to equate the two. Suggestions on how to get around this? Perhaps "accepted scientific theory..." would work better? Smitty121981 (talk) 16:55, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose again!! A final comment before I disappear for a few days! I really fail to see why this is still being discussed. The consensus of opinion is that the comments bySmitty121981 have no place in this article, there already being an article for fringe theories. Why are we still discussing this? David J Johnson (talk) 17:13, 18 August 2014 (UTC)