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Books and Bytes - Issue 10

The Misplaced Pages Library

Books & Bytes
Issue 10, January-February 2015
by The Interior (talk · contribs), Ocaasi (talk · contribs), Sadads (talk · contribs)

• New donations - ProjectMUSE, Dynamed, Royal Pharmaceutical Society, and Women Writers Online
• New TWL coordinator, conference news, and a new guide and template for archivists
• TWL moves into the new Community Engagement department at the WMF, quarterly review

Read the full newsletter

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 17:41, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

HLSmonkey02.jpg

Is there a way to prevent File:HLSmonkey02.jpg from being deleted? There's this request form, as well as {{OTRS pending}}. Otherwise, it looks like it will be deleted soon. Viriditas (talk) 00:36, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Viriditas, I try to avoid image-deletion discussions nowadays because they're such a waste of time, but I'll take a look. Sarah (SV) 03:58, 8 March 2015 (UTC) Viriditas: Repinging because I mistyped. Sarah (SV) 03:59, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

TFA page views

I've just seen the FGM viewing figures for 7 February – perhaps you have, too? Anyway, at 49,662 it is the second-highest figure this year (beaten by Maggie Gyllenhall with 51,692) and the fifth highest in the past six months. I don't think that any TFA that I have written has got near FGM's figure. You should be pleased. Brianboulton (talk) 20:07, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Brian. I was expecting a higher figure, but someone said that Friday and weekend views are lower, so that perhaps accounted for it. Still, it was a good number. Thanks for looking it up. Sarah (SV) 04:00, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

An interesting conversation...

Hi there Sarah, there's an interesting discussion going on at CaroleHenson's talk page regarding an elderly female photographer that perhaps demonstrates how difficult it may be to get women's bio articles into WP. I have run into similar situations when it came to women or people of color. Thoughts? Gandydancer (talk) 17:23, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, it was really long, so I archived it off my talk page - it's here.--CaroleHenson (talk) 17:50, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm glad it worked out. It's a nice article. Sarah (SV) 19:44, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

User:GGTF/Writing about women

This page is coming along extremely well, and is almost entirely your individual work. Just wanted to mention that; otherwise it might seem as if I only write that I disagree with parts of it. That is merely because I really like the majority of it. Thank you. --GRuban (talk) 20:23, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

@GRuban: thanks, I appreciate your saying that. Sarah (SV) 17:38, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

A Wikivoyage request

As you may be aware Wikvoyage writes about a fantastical or fictional travel-topic or destination for April 1st.

This year's article got started a little earlier at voy:Wikivoyage:Joke_articles/Time_travel

I am writing here, because I would like someone other than myself to review it, and possibly advise if there are some historical sights which would be of interest to the female traveller.( I wanted to avoid clichés about historical romances for example.) I'd also appreciate feedback as to any issues related to female travellers in time which would need to be specifically noted, so that they can be integrated into the article text, rather than having a 'Ladies' section. If you wanted to,given the tone of the article, add portions as satire or commentary I wouldn't object.

Back in the real word, Do you know of any contributors that would be able to advise on 'female' travel issues more generally ? (https://en.wikivoyage.org/Tips_for_women_travellers being the relevant article.) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:41, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Talk page stalker coming out from the shadows here. I think maybe the Moberly–Jourdain incident might be able to be shoehorned into that topic somehow. John Carter (talk) 16:32, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

@ShakespeareFan00:, I'm sorry, I don't have time to help, but if you post a request on WT:GGTF, someone there might be able to. Sarah (SV) 17:40, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

User:Timelezz

• Hi SV, just wondering if you have a look at this. Don't know if you're working as an uninvolved sysop in this are - if not, no worries I'll notify Callanecc too--Cailil 13:52, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll take a look. Sarah (SV) 15:43, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Shaygan Kheradpir

I was wondering if you had time to take a look at two versions of the Lead. You can see my notes on the current version here. I've been trying to draw attention to some editing patterns here for a couple months. CorporateM (Talk) 20:00, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi CorporateM, sorry, I missed this earlier. I'll take a quick look, but if it's anything protracted I won't be able to get involved. Sarah (SV) 15:27, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Yah, it'll probably be protracted. I'm going to submit an SPI later today or tomorrow, but if they are paid accounts as I suspect, I'm sure they were smart enough not to edit from the same IP anyway. CorporateM (Talk) 15:29, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

banana

After much searching, I see you are responsible. Please unlock this article because Misplaced Pages asks me to edit and you are preventing it because of your lock. Thank you.

There's a sentence that some may think has racist undertones. A minor change would fix any such possibility.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Silly banana vomit (talk • contribs) 00:25, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Margaret Bondfield

Last year you kindly contributed to the above article's peer review or or FAC or both. An issue has arisen from yesterday's TFA appearance, and is under discussion on the article's talk. Briefly: an editor added into the text the cited information that Bondfield's was privately known as "Maggie", and then incorporated this into the lead so the subject appeared as Margaret Grace ("Maggie") Bondfield. I have removed the nickname from the lead, and stated my position on the talkpage. I would be pleased if you could visit and briefly comment there. Brianboulton (talk) 16:36, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

I've left a comment. Sarah (SV) 15:28, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Brendan Emmett Quigley

Hi SlimVirgin, you recently semi-protected Brendan Emmett Quigley for a week. The edits have however resumed after the week has passed (removal of image, etc). Your continued input in this article would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance. Sincerely, Taketa (talk) 05:40, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Taketa, I've added indefinite semi-protection. Sarah (SV) 15:25, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Isabeau

Thanks again for the copyedits and nudges for Isabeau. Very much appreciated and definitely necessary. I've added the image of the statue to the external links with the hopes that it might get a few views. Victoria (tk) 19:02, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

You're very welcome. It's looking good! Best of luck for later. Sarah (SV) 19:10, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for contributing to Let's Talk Diversity Campaign!

		The Learning & Evaluation Barnstar
		Hi SlimVirgin, we are happy to award you a Learning and Evaluation barnstar, for your efforts in contributing to the ongoing conversation on Let's Talk Diversity! We hope to see you around, sharing what you know on the Learning Pattern Library. I'll get in touch soon with some ideas as to where you can contribute. Cheers, María (talk) 21:21, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

RfC tag thing

thanks for fixing that. Jytdog (talk) 01:17, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

You have just restored my faith

	Gratitude Coffee
	Sarah, once again you are a rare bright star among the sleeping throngs. Your recent comments give me a little faith that common sense and truth have some chance here. Danke, petrarchan47tc 21:21, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Petra. It's nice to see you around again. Sarah (SV) 16:22, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, not everyone feels that way ;) I'm glad for your suggestion to move the "COI-like" discussion after the ANI has run its course. Let's do that. petrarchan47tc 00:13, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Neonics thing

Hi - you have the story wrong, on the neonics thing. Please actually read Talk:Neonicotinoid/Archive_1#Links_to_bee_population_decline and see what happened there. Kingofaces offered an example of the kind of source that should be used - a review article. He never put that example in the article or even suggested putting that source in the article. EllenCT latched on to its funding by Bayer and tried to hang that like an albatross around his neck. She beat that horse and beat that horse. That was one small part of the behavior pattern that led me to try to seek a topic ban for her. She was incredibly disruptive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jytdog (talk • contribs) 23:25, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, it was not at all so simple as you seem to want to make it sound. What he said was, "We should be using secondary literature (i.e. review articles) such as this: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/etc.2527/full " which was deemed by both of you to be a good source with no need to even mention that it was corporate-funded. This discussion took place in the midst of some edits that were being done that removed pesticides as one of the probable components of the mix that is presently considered to be the cause of CCD and of course, this Bayer review was in agreement with that. In fact, it would make a good study tool for how to manipulate facts and wording to produce any desired result you want. I have no doubt that it would have been used except that some editors put up a fuss about it. BTW, you have complained bitterly and long about not pinging editors, perhaps you should take your own advise. Sorry for sounding so adversarial, but the way you have spoken of Ellen is not at all acceptable. Gandydancer (talk) 06:13, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually Gandy, it was exactly that simple. The piece you quoted "We should be using secondary literature (i.e. review articles) such as this . . ." was exactly as Jytdog described it. It was an example of what a secondary source or literature review is and nothing more than that. I've clarified that many times now and I don't intend to have this dredged up every time someone decides to ignore that. The sources I was primarily putting content together from were listed later in the discussion, but they don't even differ significantly in content from the Bayer funded source anyways. It's all really moot point, so I'd really appreciate if people would stop taking my posts out of context and leave it be. Kingofaces43 (talk) 14:34, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Kingofaces, literature reviews are used on WP as secondary sources, and are often understood to be independent and uninvolved. In this case two of the authors appear to be industry consultants, and the study was funded by Bayer, a major manufacturer of the insecticide the paper is about. If this were a mistake on your part, it would be no big deal, but the defence of it, and your opinion that funding doesn't matter when it comes to scientific studies, is a concern. That's why it continues to be mentioned. Sarah (SV) 16:32, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

SV and Gandy, you both continue to ignore the fact that KoF brought this up only as example and never actually used it as a source nor even proposed content based on it, and EllenCT's behavior, acting as though he did and pounding away on that, was battleground, ugly behavior. That you are continuing, full force. It is a violation of the TPG - see Misplaced Pages:Talk_page_guidelines#Behavior_that_is_unacceptable: "Do not misrepresent other people: " (emphasis from the original). Please stop doing that. And Gandy, here (Talk:Neonicotinoid/Archive_1#Discussion_of_Bayer-funded_source) were my reflections on that source. You mischaracterize me. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 13:11, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

also, Gandy, the close of the ANI on EllenCt said: "we have no clear consensus on a topic ban, though there are plenty of valid concerns about EllenCT's behavior and temperament, as is demonstrated in this very thread by Ellen's reactions." So - the concerns were valid. I acknowledge that the close continued: "Still, some avenues to help alleviate the concerns that gave rise to the problematic behavior have been pointed out, and in general, there is simply not enough support to install such a drastic measure as a topic ban. Clearly, lessons can and should be drawn from this discussions, not just by Ellen but also by other parties. And with that, I think it is proper we close this" Jytdog (talk) 13:19, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Where did I mention Ellen's editing? I didn't. All I said was that the way you have spoken of her is not acceptable. Because that's what you do - when you smell blood you close in for the kill and then you become surprised that anyone would find your actions...to use a couple of words that you use all the time for the actions of others, ugly and icky. Just look at the way you were treating Ozzie when I had to email you about it. Ozzie is one of the nicest guys here but he does have some competent issues - as is well-known by all of those that work with him almost daily on the African Ebola article because every single one of his edits need work of some sort or another. But nobody gets all pissy about it. Sure we want good articles here, but we need to foster good relationships as well or we'll end up with only a core of editors that know every policy ever written and have the time to spend endless hours of work to push their particular POV forward. User:David Tornheim is another example. As far as I can tell, he's just a normal sort of person that has not yet realized that attempting to discuss can be called canvassing and to say anything in support of alt med, something BTW believed in by the overwhelming majority of people around the world, makes one a pseudo-med pusher. Pathetic. Gandydancer (talk) 16:52, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, once again (for the third or fourth time?), the reason there was concern is that Kingofaces wrote: "... our job as editors is ... to summarize the current scientific consensus ... We should be using secondary literature (i.e. review articles) such as this: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/etc.2527/full"

It sounds as though he wanted to use that source to "summarize the current scientific consensus." But the source is an industry-funded one, and two of the authors appear to be industry consultants. When challenged, he didn't say "oops, sorry about that." He wrote: "Funding source is not relevant in assessing scientific studies, it's the content that needs to be addressed ... If you want to dispute the content then do so ... but we shouldn't be chasing red herrings about funding source. However, your assumption of 'paid for conclusions' is only that, an assumption, and it is going into original research territory." Sarah (SV) 17:11, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, I don't need to say "oops, sorry" for something never intended from my post nor should even be thought of by anyone reading it in context. Even after being warned and explaining the intent of my comments both on the article page and at ANI, you are clearly going into the territory of misrepresenting an editor's comment now. That is a very much going against WP:TPG. That is not behavior that should be condoned by anyone, much less someone in an admin position. Again, just simply stop doing that. You are cherrypicking specific statements of mine to take them completely out of the conversation's context. Regardless of why, your behavior is becoming tendentious here after explaining this so many times in general and to you. It's time to drop the stick when editors tell you exactly what they meant.

Just to make sure it's right here for you, I'll provide the context yet again (wall of text warning to be thorough). I specifically said funding source does not matter for us as editors in assessing peer-reviewed sources. That is because when someone is saying a study isn't reliable because of funding source, they are really insinuating the study's findings aren't reliable because the the study if incorrect in some way. If the study really is crappy, that can be picked out in the methods of the paper, its results, or in its interpretations. That's why when peer-reviews come in for papers, peer-reviewers go straight for the meat and point out flaws in the study design, etc. Funding source does not implicitly imply study (un)reliability. They can't reject a paper on funding source alone, so it's a red herring to focus on that as a peer-reviewer. If a study has improper conclusions due to either just honest mistake (happens to all scientists) or some more malicious effect of industry affiliation, the improper conclusion should be called out either during peer-review if it's caught then, other papers citing it later directly, or just ignoring the paper and only mentioning the mainstream consensus in future reviews.

As editors though, we cannot conduct peer-review. We are not considered experts here for that. We instead rely primarily on literature reviews to establish the scientific consensus or call out flawed experiments and papers. That is exactly what I was referring to in saying we needed literature reviews to summarize the scientific consensus and is well supported by our various policies and guidelines on the matter. If there was something wrong with this source in question, that's up for other literature reviews to call out. However, upon reading it though when assessing weights of various claims, it's not saying anything vastly different from the other studies that were discussed later. That made all the drama about that source rather moot point. If you were following the rest of the conversation on that specific source, we (including myself) did agree that it was not a truly independent source because the authors were involved. This does not disqualify such a source here because the peer-review process vets these papers as well and directly calls to attention when authors have a real-life COI for reviewers to be extra cautious about. That would instead mean we'd be still be wary about the source in assigning weight if it is significantly different from other sources or using it in isolation. As for industry-funded studies, we consider those reliable when an independent party (i.e., university researchers) do the work because their vested interest is in doing a properly designed experiment on top of the additional layer of peer-review. Notice that is all about the authors affiliation and not basing decisions on funding source.

As for my purposes in my comment to EllenCT (as I've stated many times now) I was simply saying here's an example a literature review: it reviews the current literature, summarizes it for us, the structure of what a review looks like, and isn't a primary research article. That's it. I know that whole kerfuffle with EllenCT covered a lot of ground, but reading the conversations within even a few days of a given post should give you more than enough context to show certain claims about me will just not fly. Either way I'm considering the issue with Ellen buried as long as she keeps it that way too, so I really suggest doing the same. That way there shouldn't be any need to continue this cycle of spelling out what I meant in every comment I made taken in isolation (or need to reach a post of this length). I'll consider the whole neonicotinoid discussion with you done at this point. I am more than happy to discuss the nature of scientific publishing, what actually goes on, what flaws there are, and how all that affects us here at Misplaced Pages in general. That's something probably better left for a new talk section, and is something I wouldn't mind discussing at my talk page either (in much shorter posts) if that's what really interests you. Kingofaces43 (talk) 05:20, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

"As for industry-funded studies, we consider those reliable when an independent party (i.e., university researchers) do the work because their vested interest is in doing a properly designed experiment on top of the additional layer of peer-review. Notice that is all about the authors affiliation and not basing decisions on funding source." Really? Who is this "we" you are talking about? Can you cite policy, preferably not the entire page, but a quote from it that supports the view that the entity funding a study is not relevant to its credibility if a university is involved? Does this standard also apply to the Séralini affair?

"I specifically said funding source does not matter for us as editors in assessing peer-reviewed sources. That is because when someone is saying a study isn't reliable because of funding source, they are really insinuating the study's findings aren't reliable because the the study if incorrect in some way. If the study really is crappy, that can be picked out in the methods of the paper, its results, or in its interpretations. That's why when peer-reviews come in for papers, peer-reviewers go straight for the meat and point out flaws in the study design, etc. Funding source does not implicitly imply study (un)reliability. They can't reject a paper on funding source alone, so it's a red herring to focus on that as a peer-reviewer. If a study has improper conclusions due to either just honest mistake (happens to all scientists) or some more malicious effect of industry affiliation, the improper conclusion should be called out either during peer-review if it's caught then, other papers citing it later directly, or just ignoring the paper and only mentioning the mainstream consensus in future reviews.". Again can you please cite a specific part of policy, guideline, etc. that supports this claim? And so this also applies to the Séralini affair study which was republished? David Tornheim (talk) 11:45, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

WP:INDY answers your first question by having a third-party involved. I'm not sure what you're referring to with the second. If you want to discuss this further, I suggest taking this to the article talk page if your focus is on specific content here you have a question about. If it's more broad-sense in how we deal with scientific literature, feel free to ask at my talk page. This specific conversation here has gone on long enough, and I'd rather not branch it off to another topic. Best start a new conversation for this. Kingofaces43 (talk) 13:55, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Kingofaces43, I'd really prefer not to discuss this anymore. I urge you to read about the flaws of peer review, particularly in relation to financial COI.

Re: the article, I don't know what else to say. It's clear from the thread that you suggested, more than once, using a Bayer-funded article, in which two of the four authors were industry consultants, as a literature review regarding a product Bayer manufactures. You wrote: "We should be using secondary literature (i.e. review articles) such as this," and provided a link. Jytdog then arrived to support that it was an RS. If Ellen and Gandy hadn't objected, it would probably be in the article illustrating the scientific consensus. All I can do is ask you to consider using independent sources in articles about these major financial interests, or use in-text attribution to tell the reader when you use an industry source, so that the reader knows what you know. Sarah (SV) 16:07, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is calling peer-review perfect (I'm well aware of issues with it), but it's the best we got. What I described above is how the process is intended to catch flaws as humanly possible regardless of reason for them. Still happy to discuss that all at a later date if you want (WP:MEDASSESS, especially the last paragraph, covers my views on this pretty well for additional reference). However, your comment related to Gandy and Ellen is highly inappropriate and rising to the level of a personal attack considering what I just explained to you above exactly about my intent and especially considering that the source didn't offer significantly different viewpoints from other sources. It really was just intended as a shorter literature review good for introductory reading on the topic before delving into the larger sources and introducing what a literature review is. Whether purposeful or just good-faith WP:IDHT, misrepresenting someone's comments are not ok. I've asked you nicely and repeatedly to refrain from this, so consider this your official warning not to engage in further personal attacks by misrepresenting my statements when I have already explained them to you. Just stop infusing drama into the situation that way, and I see no reason why we couldn't work together entirely collaboratively if our paths cross in the future. I am done with this conversation here as well, so I really just suggest burying the neonic thing as everyone else has done. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:42, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

unreviewed article

Hello there. Could you possibly spend a moment and review this article and remove the template from the top of this article, please? Thank you in advance.

The unreviewed article: https://en.wikipedia.org/Ali_Caszadeh SlimSlim (talk) 12:12, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Question

Sarah, there is something that I've wondered about for a long time that is related to COI editing. One need look no further than my user page where I quote Chris Hedges: "They control our systems of information." and add: Surely no one could be so naive as to believe that corporations do not have an interest in turning our encyclopedia into a corporate-approved encyclopedia. At a certain point one must admit that to not fight the creep of corporate control into our articles really does make us appear to be a bunch of easily-led, lame-brained, losers just willing to go along with the flow rather than to tackle the problem and try to come up with some sort of strategy. What, if anything, is presently being done? I'm aware that a few years ago an editor asked for some sort of outside check to "prove" that he had no COI related to the articles he edits, and I've heard of this incident dozens of times since, where it is raised as absolute evidence of a lack of conflict of interest. Many times I've wondered how Misplaced Pages went about finding this so-called proof. If I put myself in a position in which I was editing for pay but denied it, how could it be proven that I was? I mention this because the first thing you know all a paid editor need do is have WP give him/her the WP Stamp of Approval and from then on that editor is home free to do as they please. They can now proudly display their badge of approval and anyone who questions them is now seen as a disgruntled editor in need of a reality check. Gandydancer (talk) 01:32, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree that that's a concern, and I don't know what was done in that particular case. Generally speaking, nothing is being done. Less than nothing, because people who raise concerns risk being sanctioned. Sarah (SV) 01:35, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Have you been following the discussion at Jimbo's talk page? Arbs (current and recently retired) who have commented there make it clear that COI should be ignored. Depressing. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:49, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I haven't seen that discussion (will look shortly), but it's true that several actions by former Arbs have made things harder. Sarah (SV) 02:07, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

@ Boris Yes, I sure have and it has made me very heavy of heart indeed. Strangely, I have developed a closeness to Indian students through my work on the case of the Indian student that was gang raped on the bus and have felt an odd closeness to her parents who sold their land and spent all they had on her education... On the other hand, working on an Indian article has made it easier for me to see how an editor could completely take over an article which dealt with India and Indian politics - it can be very complex.

Though that said, the same thing can happen when dealing with a large US corporation, Monsanto for example. When you have one editor that knows everything there is to know about its workings and has two, three, and four, the number of edits than any other editor, it is difficult for any editor, let alone a newbie, to make much headway with their editing. Add to that, and as was noted in the Indian case, when an experienced editor knows every WP:THIS AND WP:THAT that there is, who can compete with that? That is getting into professional editorship, paid or not, and people like me can't possibly compete with that. I would never have the know-how to present a case against anyone that I felt needed to be dealt with. I think that we need to form a group that can assist editors that are concerned about corporate influence. Frankly, I'd guess that most concerns are not well-grounded - newbies need help understanding that our policies rightly need to put the brakes on including poorly sourced information. But, it could be done in a way that does not belittle editors and cause all this self-righteous drama.

As far as I can tell, WP seems to be catching the small time crooks making a few bucks on the side and does not even seem to be interested in discussing the probability that the big boyz have all time time, and money, in the world to influence their articles. Gandydancer (talk) 02:38, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

That is indeed a very depressing discussion. Re: MastCell's point about the chilling effect of the WillBeBack case, agree completely. It has been the single most destructive thing in efforts to deal with COI. Gandy, you're right. We catch the guy who earns $200 for writing a vanity bio, and do nothing about the industries that control all content about themselves. Sarah (SV) 03:19, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Very interesting thread here. I'm wanting to discuss the potential for an ArbCom regarding specific editors working as a gang), and the rampant pro-industry POV ('COI-like') editing. I'd also like to discuss the possibility of creating a task force to support editors who encounter this activity. From what I understand, the MEDRS team has a support system for those who find talk of "fringe" on our pages. Are there systems set up that could serve as an example for such a task force? Like Gandydancer, I've kept my head stuck in article space. Most editors probably aren't equipped to deal with the ensuing noticeboards and wiki-lawyering they will encounter at many articles. If they had somewhere to turn for outside, independent feedback and advice, we might not be watching our editorial pool whither away. In the fight for content control, running editors off the site seems to be the goal. How can we counteract this? petrarchan47tc 22:43, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I hate saying this, but maybe at some point you have to just shrug and say "you can't fight City Hall". If arbcom says we're not allowed to look into undisclosed COI then we're not allowed to look into undisclosed COI. You can try, if you think it's worth the risk of getting permabanned. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:17, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

I haven't mentioned COI. Maybe you were responding to someone else? petrarchan47tc 00:31, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Petra, the issue is volunteer time. First, Boris is right: ArbCom is unlikely to help with anything related to COI, because they've been part of the problem. One thing you could do is relaunch WikiProject Integrity, or create a task force that's part of that wikiproject – e.g. the COI task force, or if you want to take the focus away from COI, the Advocacy task force. Ask people to sign up if they're willing to help, including thinking through the definitions. The big issue is that there aren't many editors willing to do this work, and they get burned out very quickly. But the Wifione case, and those students in India who lost money because of it, really should be a wake-up call. Sarah (SV) 00:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, let's hope so. I certainly don't care to take on a project like this, but I would be willing to offer support. petrarchan47tc 01:10, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Petra, I think anyone wanting a solution will have to take the lead. I talked to someone recently who has experience of dealing with COI in publishing. Their advice was that the Foundation should be urged to set up a group of COI specialists who can topic-ban editors from articles where there appears to be control on behalf of financial interests.

The Foundation isn't going to do that. But they might give a grant to volunteers – a group who would gather the evidence and propose topic bans to the community. It would mean a lot of work; see Grants:IdeaLab and Grants:Start. You would have to find editors who understand why COI is damaging (e.g. Smallbones, Gandydancer, Coretheapple, Doc James, Short Brigade Harvester Boris), put whatever differences there are to one side, and (with the grant) pay for some specialist help and pay yourselves for the research. I completely understand why you wouldn't want to devote the time, but I want to leave it here as a suggestion anyway. Sarah (SV) 18:59, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time. This does sound like a rational approach. It's a big project for someone who isn't committed to WP anymore, but perhaps others will see this and decide to take it on. Meanwhile I'll be pondering and supporting you all from afar. petrarchan47tc 19:35, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

So I have been trying to address COI issue regarding paid editing via armies of sock puppets. What I have found is:

• Jimmy Wales is supportive of us doing something
• We have TOU that does not allow it
• The WMF is not interested in enforcing the TOU. They want us to do it.
• Arbcom does not see it as a problem. And does not feel the TOU apply to them.
• There appears to be little desire to run check users on these sock puppet armies.
• It is unclear if one can link to other accounts and thus on can likely not discuss much evidence around COI on Misplaced Pages without risk of banning
• It is unclear if arbcom will ban editors who try to deal with it but they may
• The WMF has not agreed to provide support to editors if they are so banned by arbcom
• Elance and Fiverr are willing to comply with our TOU by deleting account there.
• I have proposed to the WMF the creation of a specific group of functionaries to deal with TOU enforcement. The WMF has not replied after more than a month and a fair number of emails.
• The WP:COIN notice board is where much work takes place. Needs more help.

So were to from here?

• I have proposed a panel on the topic in Mexico (Jimmy Wales has agreed to introduce it, no one from Arbcom has agreed to be on it, Legal at the WMF is still thinking about it)
• If there was community support to create a new group of functionaries to enforce the TOU than the WMF may be willing to support the creation of one. That is the next RfC on the topic. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:59, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

I am willing to help for free, and will do whatever I can. Time is not a constraint. Travel could be since you might have to goat tie me and drag me off this island. I can't be bought, but I can be persuaded for the right reasons. My Dad always said, "Sweetie, integrity is an expensive virtue." Atsme☯ 22:05, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Atsme, what is your take on Sarah's idea to relaunch WikiProject Integrity, or create a task force that's part of that wikiproject – e.g....the Advocacy task force as a way to begin addressing advocacy editing (spin-doctoring), and the misuse of guidelines to that end? petrarchan47tc 22:33, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Just give me the authority and the tools, and if I can't dazzle you with brilliance, I'll baffle you with BS. Seriously, I am soooooo ready to do something. I see the problem, and I can almost recite our 3 core policies to you by memory. I also have the extra time because of my semi-retirement (which basically means I work harder for free) so let's do it - I'll take the lead if needed, but I hope Sarah will help guide me along. I'm a fast learner. Gimme, gimme, gimme. I'll train, I'll travel, I'll type - tell me where to start. Atsme☯ 23:03, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

I would also be willing to help out with a WikiProject Integrity type project or in creating such a task force, although my time online has been somewhat limited lately. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 23:38, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Petra, Doc James, Atsme and BoboMeowCat, a way to start might be to spruce up the WikiProject Integrity page so that it looks lived in. Find some templates, add a bit of design, some images, write a good intro setting out its parameters (e.g. COI, paid and unpaid advocacy), and announce a relaunch. Sarah (SV) 00:01, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

That's a good idea. By the way, I see that I was pinged by you and another editor concerning discussions still ongoing at AN/I and T:COI. I have been away for a few days but will certainly take a look. The discussions have grown very large I see. I'm complimented to be invited into a discussion, as usually people want me to go away! Coretheapple (talk) 16:57, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Sarah mentioned another, more in-depth approach too (scroll up). I started a thread about this idea at Atsme's talk page here. Sarah, if you care to expand on it, please do stop by (or it can be moved here, but I didn't want to disrupt the conversations re task force and essay). petrarchan47tc 19:28, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Rukeyser.gif

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Hello

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 20:02, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Help please

Hi there Sarah, at the Rape in India article the second para in the lead reads:

The incidence of reported rapes in India are among the lowest in the world. However parliamentarians have expressed concern that majority of rape cases go unreported. Compared to other developed and developing countries, reported rapes per 100,000 people are quite low in India. The incidence of reported rapes in India are among the lowest in the world. However parliamentarians have expressed concern that majority of rape cases go unreported. Compared to other developed and developing countries, reported rapes per 100,000 people are quite low in India. India has been characterized as one of the "countries with the lowest per capita rates of rape".

Concerned about refs #5 and #7, I put in a request at the Reliable sources notice board (#14) and they agreed that these refs are not acceptable. I would like to change the para to read:

India has been characterized as one of the "countries with the lowest per capita rates of rape". However parliamentarians have expressed concern that majority of rape cases go unreported.

Having worked on several Indian rape cases in the past, It has been my impression that rape and politics go hand in hand in India. I would like to work on this article and am wondering just how it happened that only admins are allowed there - something I've never run into before in all the years I've been editing. Thoughts? Gandydancer (talk) 14:58, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Gandy, the best thing is to ask the protecting admin, Bgwhite, to reduce to semi-protection so that you and Bargolus can edit, or if he intended full protection because of a content dispute, to reduce it to the usual few days, rather than two weeks. Standard procedure is first to approach the protecting admin, and if disagreement about protection level remains, go to WP:RFPU.

Re: your proposed change, it looks fine, though I think it would read better without "however". Also, minor point, the edit needs a "the," as in "the majority of rape cases ..." Good luck in tackling such a difficult article. Sarah (SV) 18:28, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Gandydancer, what you want changed is part of the second "war", you need to leave a message on the article's talk page first. The article is undergoing the second major "war" in the past few weeks. Sock puppets, harassment and accusations are only some of the "fun". Multiple people were blocked during the first "war" before I got involved and added page protection. I brokered a settlement for the first "war", but have not gotten involved in second. I'm hoping the parties come to an agreement first. Bargolus has left messages on my talk page seeking advice and asking questions. They are having trouble expressing their point of view... it is on the confusing side. I'm getting on my knees to beg and plead for you to add in your voice on the talk page. Any voice of sanity would be extremely helpful. Bgwhite (talk) 19:59, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

I just added "the" that Sarah suggested. It was requested by Bargolus on the talk page. Gandydancer, beware that your suggestion will probably be greeted as, "you are a sockpuppet" by one of the editors. Ignore them. They have been warned, repeatedly, to stop saying everybody against their point of view is a sockpuppet. Bgwhite (talk) 07:31, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Essay

Sarah, Thanks for your comment on ANI. Duck was the word I was looking for. Do you think it might be helpful to draft a COIDuck essay? As I mentioned in ANI, it seems COIDuck-like to violate multiple polices and guidelines such as WP:NPOV, WP:OWN, WP:CHERRYPICK, WP:SYTNTH, WP:BULLY, WP:TAGTEAM, WP:BITE. I agree with you that we need to try do something, especially in light of .--BoboMeowCat (talk) 23:42, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

@BoboMeowCat: an essay is an excellent idea. I have too much on my plate to start one, but I'd be very willing to make some edits. If you're interested in starting it, you might want to begin in user space so that you have a decent version ready before opening it up. Sarah (SV) 00:06, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I may be more of a follower type, than a leader here, especially when it comes to policy, as I have limited experience. @Atsme:, any chance you’d be willing to start such an essay and dazzle us :) If you, or any other talk page stalker, could start a draft of such an essay, and get the general essay format going, I will contribute to the writing. Anyone else interested in helping out with this? (pinging @Petrarchan47:,@Gandydancer:) --BoboMeowCat (talk) 00:19, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

You betcha, BoboMeowCat! Anchor's aweigh! Notice that I'm wearing my sunglasses. The dazzle can be blinding. Atsme☯ 01:00, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) fwiw, the essay would come out better if you've spent some time working the front lines of dealing with COI in WP. The two places where we need more help are AfC, AfD, and COIN, per this comment by DGG, an Arbitrator - see here. I know that is more grunt-work than the glamour of being dazzling but it would be great to have more hands there. Jytdog (talk) 01:01, 31 March 2015 (UTC) (striking per below. Jytdog (talk) 01:08, 31 March 2015 (UTC))

Jytdog, pleased not refer to me as an arb unless I'm acting as an arb. There, as almost everywhere except on arb pages, I'm commenting only as an editor giving only my own personal opinion. (or, sometimes, as an admin doing something any admin can do.) In neither context does being an arb make any difference at all. DGG ( talk ) 01:06, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

thank you, will keep that in mind. sorry, and striking. Jytdog (talk) 01:08, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Bobo, about pinging, it only works if a signature is added when the ping is, so pings added after the fact as you did apparently don't go through. See WP:ECHO: "if the edit does not add a new signature to the page, no notification will be sent." I don't know whether it's a bug or a feature. Sarah (SV) 01:02, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, (re-pinging @Petrarchan47:,@Gandydancer:) to alert them to this thread.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 01:09, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I got something started User:Atsme/sandboxCOIduckery. Atsme☯ 01:48, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Go, Atsme! Oh, and you might find this extremely helpful. petrarchan47tc 05:28, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

(Related: WP:9STEPS petrarchan47tc 16:59, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I've done the damage, and the first draft is ready. User:Atsme/sandboxCOIduckery. I apologize for the verbosity but it was once advantageous when I was paid by the word. Old habits are harder to break than the bank. Feel free to snip away at the verbiage, add infoboxes, images, and whatever else will help break the verbal monotony. The only thing I can confirm as missing is a remedy. I don't have one, so I left it open to suggestions from Sarah (SV) and/or other admins who might be concerned I might inadvertently screw something up, or who just enjoy Atsme☯ 16:24, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Atsme, I like your essay and your writing. Thank you for putting it together! The one thing I would urge caution over, and I was thinking of mentioning this to Petra too, is criticism of MEDRS. I know it has been misused (and misunderstood), but the people at WikiProject Medicine are very concerned about COI. Doc James, for example, is a strong MEDRS defender and COI opponent. MEDRS provides some defence against COI because for the most part it doesn't allow primary sources (e.g. individual studies). It's a conservative approach, but it's one that keeps out all kinds of misuse of primary sources, including by COI advocates. The more I've seen MEDRS in action, the more I've come to appreciate it, not only for COI but for quality in general. (That's assuming it's used correctly; it's worth reading carefully.) Sarah (SV) 19:47, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

(For my part, I would much rather address Advocacy editing and leave the COI issue to those already covering it.) My concern is not about MEDRS when used correctly. I do have a problem with the fact that the American medical model has taken over WP, and that WP Project Medicine does not include practitioners from Chinese medicine, Indian (Aryuvedic) medicine, natural healing, ancient forms of healing, etc. When I think of an encyclopedia, I expect to see a rounded picture with the full history and all nations included. Instead, other forms of medicine are *judged* rather than described by this website.

I was dismayed to say the least when WP Project Medicine took over all of the Cannabis articles even though 2 of the 3 editors responsible admitted to a strong bias against herbal medicine. They also did not know anything about the subject, and made the articles sound more like an FDA warning than a presentation of all the facts to date. I actually brought in a Cannabinoid researcher to help them interpret studies in a field that is very new and complicated. I expected he would be welcomed and utilized (I introduced him via the Project Medicine talk page), but instead he was ignored and I was accused of canvassing, with one of the editors *still*, a year later, trying to get sanctions against me for that.

The MEDRS guideline does indeed allow for primary sources to be used with due weight, and we are being told otherwise, which is one way the guideline is being misused and misinterpreted. The misuse of MEDRS is a very complex issue, and is the very reason I would encourage Atsme to share her insights on this matter. She is seeing the exact things I am seeing and describes them clearly. I am sure Doc James does tremendous work, although again, he works in the very field he edits and it is possible that a worldview (encyclopedic view) of medicine might be harder to embrace.

You may remember, Sarah, when I came to you to ask about MEDRS - it was the first time I had heard of it. Jytdog used it as a way to keep information about RoundUp's potential health effects out of the Pedia. How would any human have been harmed by seeing that information? Only Monsanto stockholders would have been harmed. Yet here we are, 2 years later, and WHO is admitting RoundUp probably causes cancer. In hindsight, it seems that if the edit had been allowed to remain, some people may have made different buying choices and potentially have a lesser chance of getting cancer. MEDRS in this case was not used to protect human health, but rather a large corporation. petrarchan47tc 21:13, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

There are high quality secondary sources that support health effects / concerns WRT pesticides and there has been for years. We hardly give the substances our blessing per Health_effects_of_pesticides. Just because some primary sources are good does not mean we should not do better and use secondary sources.

That you consider the enforcement of using high quality sources to be an example of COI is unfortunate. WP:MEDRS is one of the few effective methods we have of dealing with COI in medicine. One can cherry pick primary sources. It is a little harder to do that with recent systematic reviews and meta analysis. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:20, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

With all due respect, DocJames, reliable sources is exactly what defenders of genetic engineering lack—see here for a specific discussion of this point—yet the exact same users cry "MEDRS" when it suits their purposes. Despite continual warnings about the state of the genetic engineering articles, which for years have make highly problematic claims about food safety, would-be enforcers of scientific rigor have been conspicuously unwilling to make the necessary changes. The medical "authorities" on Wikipeida lack credibility so long as they continue to enable this whitewashing. shalom, groupuscule (talk) 01:05, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

^Strongly agree. David Tornheim (talk) 05:35, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Doc, please note that I began my piece by saying that I am talking not about COI editing, but advocacy editing. I have had unfortunate experiences with MEDRS being misused. Another example is here (scroll to the bottom for complete context and Atsme's response). (Here is a direct link to the edit in question). I am not talking in absolutes here, either. I'm not saying it's a bad guideline. I am simply pointing out that is being misused in a way that does not serve the reader, and likely reflects the bias of the editor rather than the "spirit of the law".

Secondary sources can be cherry-picked as well. Viriditas is aware of this in relation to the Medical Cannabis article. Many editors have pointed out that the Cannabis articles are now POV, and in my attempt to counter what I saw as a coatrack of negative information added to the MediCann article during the great overhaul, I compiled this list using primarily MEDRS-compliant sources. I was told by Alexbrn that none of this was acceptable for the article. petrarchan47tc 03:45, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes that is just a starting point. One then needs to than balance the sources based on how good they are. " Front Public Health" has an impact factor of zero and thus not a very good source. We also need sources that have a reputation for acuracy. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:58, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Lets look at this edit

The first ref is popular press , this is a primary source , this is more popular press Gah

This is exactly the sources we should be keeping out of Misplaced Pages. If they were important we would see a review on Alzheimer's, Parkinson's or RA discussing it. There is not a lack of high quality recent literature reviews in top medical journals on these topics. The fact that they do not discuss it means it is not widely believed to be important. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:11, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Might you be placing too much faith in the neutrality of the top medical journals? The fact that they do not discuss some things has to do with which studies receive funding, no? I think the Pedia is worse off without this information, and no one was being harmed by its inclusion. Popular press has been the lifeblood of this encyclopedia as long as I have been here, but with the MEDRS rule, people who know more than the rest of us can make sweeping statements and deletions based on it, leaving other editors and piles of information in the dust. I would rather have an encyclopedia that includes more information, not less, unless that info could cause harm to human health (if proven later to be false). MEDRS should be used to protect readers, but I see it used to censor information and to spin articles and attack alternatives so that the American medical industry and it's twin, the pharmaceutical industry, are seen as nearly infallible, when indeed they remain among the leading causes of death in the US. I wouldn't expect anyone receiving a paycheck from this industry to have a truly neutral view of this system and its inherent flaws, which is why it's beyond upsetting that WP has signed off on allowing professionals to control content, and even create policies (or guidelines being used as policy), in their chosen field. This seems the epitome of conflicted to me.

However, WP has signed off on this, for whatever reason, and I have retired. Please rest assured that I am not going to become a disruption to the collegiate atmosphere and the good work you all are doing to fight COI. Thanks for hearing me out. petrarchan47tc 21:24, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Sarah, you are a breath of fresh air, and so is Petra. I fully understand your concerns, and if you get a chance, please read my response to Petra on my TP because I actually addressed your issues in that wall of text (which I apologize for but it's as much a part of me as are my blue eyes and blonde hair, except those are colors I can change much easier than I can change the color of my dissertations. I am trying, promise). Atsme☯ 21:54, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Atsme, I'll take a look at your post. Don't apologize for your writing. I like it! Sarah (SV) 03:29, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

WRT an essay

1) How one should edit Misplaced Pages

• Find a good source such as a 2015 review in the Lancet
• Paraphrase said source and add it (you can use one excellent source many times)
• Discussion may then occur regarding the paraphrasing or placement of the info

2) How one should not edit Misplaced Pages

• Come up with a conclusion you think is true
• Search the literature to find evidence to support this position
• Attempt to edit war it into place

If we use the best available sources we have a much better chance of having the best available content Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:02, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Sarah (SV), what else needs to be done in order to make COI duckery a main space essay? Thanks for all you do!! Atsme☯ 14:55, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Atsme, you can add your essay to project space at Misplaced Pages:COI duckery (or whatever title you prefer) by moving it using the move tab at the top of the page under "More" (that way preserves the page history), or by copying it onto the new page.

Again, I would urge caution re: MEDRS, particularly the sentence "MEDRS is a content guideline, not a policy." It's widely accepted as a policy, despite the guideline label, though you'll see on talk that there's sometimes disagreement about how to apply it. One thing that might help is to read up about medical sourcing so that you're in a better position to find good sources and recognize when MEDRS is being mis-applied. Suggestions: Trisha Greenhalgh, How to Read a Paper: The Basics of Evidence-Based Medicine, and some useful links here at the BMJ, including this article by Greenhalgh. Sarah (SV) 18:39, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

This is important - it's a guideline, but is widely accepted as policy? The lack of clarity is causing much strife amongst users; a handful have been complaining about this on my talk page. The murkiness surrounding MEDRS needs to be remedied or the conflicts won't end. petrarchan47tc 20:37, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi Petra, There are uses of MEDRS that are strongly supported, and then there is the misuse of it. One idea might be to take your strongest case – one that was dismissed per MEDRS but that you feel was policy-compliant or ought to have been – and ask for opinions about it on WT:MEDRS. Sarah (SV) 20:48, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Break

Thank you for the tip, Sarah. I'll take another look at it. While I completely understand the purpose and benefit of MEDRS (and have read it), I agree with Petra and the other editors who expressed concern over its misuse and the need for clarity. One of my concerns is censorship of information which inadvertently places WP in the role of advising readers rather than informing them, and doing so is not NPOV. While the information we provide should certainly be RS, we are still an encyclopedia providing general knowledge, the point being WP:NOTJOURNAL. It is extremely fortunate that we have volunteers in the highest levels of academia, medicine and science writing and collaborating on articles about such topics but WP should maintain a more sterile position in lieu of promoting one view over another or protecting readers from learning about one treatment over another. For example, MEDRS basically prevents inclusion of integrative and alternative treatments in an article even though NIH recognizes it , as does the Mayo Clinic and other reputable medical clinics around the world. I generally steer clear of these types of articles but MEDRS occasionally bleeds over into related BLPs which is how I initially got involved. WP is global but there have been occasions where MEDRS was used as an excuse to exclude information from Chinese and Indian Journals as not RS. Their health systems can't be too bad considering population numbers: China in the lead with 1.34 billion, India with 1.19 billion, and the United States with a mere 311.1 million and the highest rate of autism in the world. Also, if the NY Times or ABC News runs a story reporting a pattern of behavioral issues or deaths linked to a certain drug, it should not be censored from inclusion in the relative article as long as it includes an inline citation and inline text attribution. I'll close with another concern. We can probably all agree that most people have become quite skeptical of big pharma and its perceived control over government; some of the reasons shown here: List_of_largest_pharmaceutical_settlements. Now look at the following series of reverts regarding the exclusion/inclusion of governmental health: , and the following series of reverts regarding academic sources: . I look forward to your response, and thank you very much for the time and attention you've contributed to addressing our concerns. Atsme☯ 05:35, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Atsme I just wanted to mention I don't think those countries huge populations are a sign of good healthcare systems. The opposite actually. They need more birth control to be covered for one thing. Popish Plot (talk) 14:00, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Ok, Sarah (SV), take a gander at it when you get a chance...almost a total revamp. User:Atsme/sandboxCOIduckery. I'm also planning to change the title to COI ducks. Hopefully you'll like it better now. Atsme☯ 22:54, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi Atsme, I'll take a look at it shortly. Just one point for now in response to your post. You wrote:

"... if the NY Times or ABC News runs a story reporting a pattern of behavioral issues or deaths linked to a certain drug, it should not be censored from inclusion in the relative article ..."

When newspapers run that a study has shown a new drug to be helpful (and these stories appear all the time), you would have to include that too. Given that such stories are regularly planted by pharmaceutical companies, you can see where that would lead. Ditto with allowing primary sources: you would have to include individual studies funded by the companies. How would we decide which primary sources to allow in?

The point of relying on secondary sources in medical journals is that those authors make that choice for us. The alternative is to leave it to individual editors, perhaps without relevant training, perhaps with a COI. That's a problem with primary sources in every field, not just medicine, but the risk of COI editing based on primary sources is high in medicine. If you were to allow primary sources, how would you protect articles against this? Sarah (SV) 00:26, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Censoring information is far more harmful. If cutting edge or break-thru information is reported or published in RS, such as the NY Times, ABC, CNN, and/or in peer reviewed medical journals that publish independent studies with conclusions from different labs, I would think yes, we include it per NPOV in a dispassionate tone with proper weight and categorization as ongoing research or hypotheses. Hypothetical scenario: major research company in US announces plans to conduct further research into a natural substance as the result of new discoveries of unknown mechanisms that show positive results (citing 6 different laboratory tests from different labs in the US, China, India) in-vitro and/or in laboratory animals. Can we not include a short paragraph about it in the relative article under a section titled hypotheses, and/or research directions? It's no longer pseudoscience or fringe because it is ongoing research. We're not calling it a cure - it's ongoing research. Who knows - a young student might be inspired by the information and set a new course in life as a scientist, researcher or doctor. Why would we want to keep such knowledge from our readers? Also, if we can trust CNN, ABC, the NY Times, etc. for breaking news about war, our national defense, politics, ebola, fracing, meteors, etc. why can't we trust them to give us cutting edge reports about science and medicine? If we adhere to policy using inline text attribution, and make sure to not give it UNDUE per the guidelines, why not? Atsme☯ 02:42, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Partly because journalists sometimes get it wrong (or often, in the view of scientists), partly because the pharmaceutical industry is active in guiding news sources (read Ben Goldacre on the manipulation of patients' groups), and partly because there would be no end to it. You can find a study on PubMed to show just about anything.

Your suggestion would mean that journalists would guide which medical primary sources were allowed as sources on WP. That would mean that researchers good at PR would be included in Misplaced Pages more often than researchers who don't court publicity. But we don't let journalists do that with history articles – we don't decide which Auschwitz survivors have offered credible testimony based on the view of CNN. We rely on the work of Holocaust historians, academics able to judge which primary sources are credible.

News sources can be used for current-affairs issues in articles about medical issues, though I'm not a regular editor of medical articles, so I don't know where the lines are drawn. It might be fruitful to start a discussion on WT:MED about the parameters, and ask for examples of appropriate current-affairs reporting in medical articles or of the appropriate use of primary sources. Sarah (SV) 03:12, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Not much hope either way........see following excerpt:

Big Pharma Sways Opinions - Doctors may be persuaded to allow ghostwriting, which involves Big Pharma paying physicians to attach their names to positive articles about a particular drug with the goal of seeing it published in a reputable medical journal.

Often the commentary is little more than an advertisement penned by a company-paid copywriter showcasing a newer product. Big Pharma used ghostwriting to promote numerous drugs, including the antidepressant Paxil, the recalled weight loss drug Fen-Phen, the anti-epilepsy drug Neurontin, the antidepressant Zoloft and painkiller Vioxx, to name a few.

In addition, even when a medical reviewer, who is an expert in the field, writes a comprehensive assessment of a new drug for a medical journal, it is common practice for those supposedly unbiased professionals to be on Big Pharma’s payroll.

In a 2011 investigation into conflicts of interest in medical literature, an international team of researchers reviewed the funding sources of 29 meta-analyses, or studies of past studies, that involved 509 individual drug trials. Researchers identified seven meta-analyses in which all studies mentioned were funded completely or in part by the manufacturer of the drug being evaluated — or where the study authors had direct financial ties to the drugmaker. In six out of the seven meta-analyses, investigators did not disclose the source of funding.

These slanted studies appear in medical journals that are widely hailed as collections of unbiased scientific evaluation and separated from the long financial arm of pharmaceutical industry influence. Yet Richard Smith, former editor of the British Medical Journal, says, “All journals are bought – or at least cleverly used – by the pharmaceutical industry.”

Atsme☯ 03:42, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

@Atsme: Who is drugwatch.com and why do they want me to call them for "a free case review"? Have you ever used them as a source in a Misplaced Pages article? Geogene (talk) 17:01, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi Geogene, I saw you add a ping (fix a typo) to your edit after you'd signed it. That doesn't work; they need a sig after the ping, so I'll re-ping Atsme for you. There's a script that produces the ping template to avoid typos. I'll find it and post it to your talk. Sarah (SV) 17:48, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, Sarah. @Geogene:, I found them on the internet last night when I Googled the phrase "big pharma influence on medical journals". I just now went to the site again, and found their "about" link if that helps. All I know about them is what the website says. I don't normally write about health or medicine, so to your question, "no", I never used them as a source. They appear to be a law firm who specializes in medical claims and malpractice, etc. I'm not sure, but if they publish a conclusion about a case they handled, it wouldn't actually be OR, but it might be considered a primary source, or would it be self-published? They actually "called you"? Atsme☯ 19:30, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

@Atsme: That's exactly what it seems to be. I looked up the host information for the site, and all I saw is that it's hosted by GoDaddy. It seems to be an intake point to recruit medical malpractice plaintiffs. I don't mean to imply that what they are doing is in any way unethical, or that the information there is necessarily wrong...just that I can't work out who has editorial control of the site. I think that, like pharma companies, they have a horse in the race. Their sources sections could be useful, though. Geogene (talk) 20:30, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

More info on it is already on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/Medical_ghost_writing Popish Plot (talk) 14:13, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

PS - worse yet: "But while the popular press celebrated this sudden attack of nanoconscience and while we still gravely debate whether physicians’ loyalties can really be bought for a disposable pen or a free lunch, the $310 billion pharmaceutical industry quietly buys something far more influential: the contents of medical journals and, all too often, the trajectory of medical research itself." Atsme☯ 03:44, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

PSS - It might also be of interest to note that the FDA is headed by an ex-Monsanto lobbyist (Michael Taylor), so is a questionable RS when it comes to the issue of GM foods, etc. Also, the FDA is subservient to the White House, it is not an independent scientific organization; it takes money from the pharma industry. (Examples from: FORBES and Harvard)

And again from Harvard:

"The forthcoming article in JLME also presents systematic, quantitative evidence that since the industry started making large contributions to the FDA for reviewing its drugs, as it makes large contributions to Congressmen who have promoted this substitution for publicly funded regulation, the FDA has sped up the review process with the result that drugs approved are significantly more likely to cause serious harm, hospitalizations, and deaths. New FDA policies are likely to increase the epidemic of harms. This will increase costs for insurers but increase revenues for providers.

"This evidence indicates why we can no longer trust the FDA to carry out its historic mission to protect the public from harmful and ineffective drugs. Strong public demand that government “do something” about periodic drug disasters has played a central role in developing the FDA. Yet close, constant contact by companies with FDA staff and officials has contributed to vague, minimal criteria of what “safe” and “effective” mean. The FDA routinely approves scores of new minor variations each year, with minimal evidence about risks of harm. Then very effective mass marketing takes over, and the FDA devotes only a small percent of its budget to protect physicians or patients from receiving biased or untruthful information. The further corruption of medical knowledge through company-funded teams that craft the published literature to overstate benefits and understate harms, unmonitored by the FDA, leaves good physicians with corrupted knowledge. Patients are the innocent victims."

But the FDA is accepted by WP as a trusted source for biomedical claims. petrarchan47tc 05:13, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi Atsme and Petra, I agree that the funding and ghostwriting problems stretch beyond the primary sources. I think the hope is that it's less likely that a secondary source will have these problems, because the review articles give an overview of multiple studies, so it's harder to interefere with that. It might be worth having a discussion about funding and sources with WikiProject Medicine because I know they do care a lot about COI. Sarah (SV) 17:55, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

I think it's more likely a secondary source can be gamed. Easier for the medical industry to pay off one researcher who is compiling studies by cherry picking than to pay off all researchers who are working on what would be primary sources. This is the reason for consolidation, easier to corrupt. Popish Plot (talk) 14:16, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Atsme and Petra make some very good points about how money corrupts scientific publishing and regulatory agencies. I can think of no simple solutions to this problem. I do think that identifying funding sources for studies and review articles and connections of authors/editors that have significant ties to industry through current or past employment is helpful. I strongly disagree with a comment made above that because a university performs a study or review that is funded by industry that the study is "independent". Universities rely heavily on industry funding and there is immense pressure to report the result the industry wants reported. See for example this article.. Quotes from that article:

"The odds of coming to a conclusion favorable to the industry are 3.6 times greater in research sponsored by the industry than in research sponsored by government and nonprofit groups, according to a published analysis by Justin Bekelman, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania, and colleagues." (paraphrase of comments by Joseph Ross, a professor at Yale Medical School.)

...

“It used to be that drug companies would hand their new drug over to an academic center to have it tested, and then they sat back and waited,” said Marcia Angell, who retired as editor in chief of NEJM in 2000 after more than 20 years at the publication. “Now they’re intimately involved in every step along the way, and they treat academic researchers more like hired hands.”

This article refers to this meta-analysis showing how funding corrupts review articles too with regard to cancer risk from second hand smoke:

However, studies have shown that when industry pays for research, it may influence the outcome. A 1998 analysis of more than 100 articles published on secondhand smoke reported that 37 percent found no health risk. At least 74 percent of the articles exonerating cigarette smoke were written by scientists with ties to the tobacco industry.

The meta-study concluded:

The conclusions of review articles are strongly associated with the affiliations of their authors. Authors of review articles should disclose potential financial conflicts of interest, and readers of review articles should consider authors' affiliations when deciding how to judge an article's conclusions.

Based on this I think Misplaced Pages should do the same whenever possible. David Tornheim (talk) 21:31, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Lots of good ideas were presented in this discussion, and certainly a lot of information to wrap our heads around. FYI, I finished the essay and it is now online, WP:COIducks. I took the advice of several editors and polished it up a bit, only this time during normal daylight hours instead of late night with only half a brain as I have been. It's far from perfect, but it's still editable. I am duly impressed by Petrarchan47 and the inspiration that has grown out of her retirement. Imagine what we could accomplish if she was back full time!

I also wanted to take this opportunity to acknowledge Sarah's FA accomplishments. I am in awe. I learned of Sarah only recently, but it was not difficult to recognize her outstanding abilities as an editor and exceptional qualities as an administrator. If only there were more like her! In the recent past, I suggested making FAs a prerequisite for an administrator position. I truly believes it provides for a better understanding of the actual work involved in getting the article right beginning with the most intricate of details from proper citations to comma placement. I have the utmost respect, admiration and appreciation for the work performed by the FA review team and the article nominators/collaborators throughout the process. To have gone through and passed so many FA reviews, Sarah clearly is a shining star, and I say that with the utmost sincerity. Atsme☯ 23:49, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

She certainly is - that's a well known fact. Sarah, thank you for once again hosting an incredible discussion and sharing your insights. Atsme, you're hilarious and a burst of sunlight. Applause all around ~ petrarchan47tc 23:56, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

As an example of how the MEDRS rules of using secondary sources do not help, take a look at what is happening here. Any review article that suggests that organic is healthier than conventional food is rejected as "too old" from a "fringey" journal, etc.David Tornheim (talk) 08:08, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

RFPP

I've done an RFPP that you declined. Don't mean to step on your toes, but the title seemed worthy of salting. If you disagree, feel free to unprotect. Deor (talk) 01:20, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

That's fine, Deor, and thanks for letting me know. Sarah (SV) 01:26, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Advice please

Hi Sarah. Thanks for your cool and measured responses to the RfC at (I won't mention the page in case this is inappropriate). I have just seen an interchange on the user page of one of the editors in this drama which indicates there may be an alliance relating to that RfC. I appreciate this appears all very "cloak-and-dagger", and perhaps even slight paranoia, but, should I do something about this? I am getting extremely weary of all the drama going on over there, so if you suggest I drop this alliance possibility, I most certainly will. Of course I can provide the diff for this but felt better not to make this public at this stage.__DrChrissy (talk) 19:57, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi DrChrissy, I think the best thing for you at that RfC is not to comment on it anymore. It's getting bogged down with "meta" issues, and if that continues the closing editor might have problems closing it. As things stand, most people want the legislation section to be in the main article. That may or may not change as the RfC progresses.

Often with an RfC, the best approach is to ask a clear question, link to what you want, create a separate survey section so that it's not overwhelmed by threaded replies, then stand back and let it happen. Sometimes things work out as we want, and sometimes not. I think focusing on possible alliances will lead to more distress for you, so I'd drop that aspect and focus only on steering the RfC to a conclusion (and, as I said, the best way to do that might be to do nothing). Sarah (SV) 20:15, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Great advice, thanks very much. As to correctly wording an RfC - I don't think I will be trying this again any time in the near future ;-) Enjoy your evening, morning or wherever you are in the world.__DrChrissy (talk) 20:22, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Hello?

I pinged you today. Did you not receive a notice? Lightbreather (talk) 03:36, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi Lightbreather, I saw it about ten minutes ago, and that it was closed. I wasn't sure what the request was for. If you want to give details, I can take a look, but can't promise anything. Sarah (SV) 04:14, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I also meant to say that I'm sorry about your elbow and that your friend is ill. I'm sorry for saving the post without saying that. I hope you're not in too much pain. Sarah (SV) 04:51, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Talk back

Rape article bias?

Sarah, I just read our Rape article hoping to find stats on convictions and was surprised to find only a tiny section on convictions as opposed to a very large section on false allegations, with a link to a false allegations article to boot. Even the recent article 2014 Badaun gang rape allegations was included in the false allegations for good measure. Beginning an attempt to expand the Convictions section, I began with the wording, "The courts have been criticized for the surprisingly low rates of rape convictions" with a source, and a UK article. It was immediately deleted. Would this be the sort of article that may need help from a more balanced group of editors, meaning more women involved in the editing, rather than the assumed 10 to 20 percent? While I am not suggesting that only women can edit the rape article without bias - I believe that most WP male editors are perfectly capable to do that - it does seem odd to me to find such an apparent long-standing gap in the amount of space given to these two sections. But for all I know, since one's own bias can be hard to spot, the bias can be on my part and for that reason I'd like some feedback from other women. Thoughts? Gandydancer (talk) 14:10, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi Gandy, I agree that it would be good to develop that section. Perhaps start by discussing with Andy on talk (he may only have objected to "the rapist was acquitted," so a quick ce might do it). Posting on WT:GGTF might bring in people willing to help expand it. Sarah (SV) 18:50, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

This bias seems to be present on all of the rape articles I've read on Misplaced Pages. For example, Mattress Performance now has issues with editors adding negative commentary into section where it's off topic such as "university hearings" (with no balance of supportive commentary). Pretty much all of the neutrality improvements from when task force was working on it were removed except for the removal of accused name (that's still off). Campus Accountability and Safety Act has an entire section for "criticism", but not for support for this proposed legislation. All of the rape articles I've read on WP seem to have a strong POV regarding false allegations. I've had a similar experiences as Gandydancer where attempts to improve or balance are quickly reverted (like completely reverted, along with normal fixes being undone). The articles related to rape seem to need more balance and neutrality and I'm not sure what's the answer. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 21:34, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

@BoboMeowCat: I've only briefly looked at the suite of rape articles, and as you say I always noticed a bias. Time is the issue. People get burned out trying to deal with it. Sarah (SV) 19:20, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

One of the reasons for the essay

One of the reasons I felt clarity of the guidelines was important is evidenced here . It is quite interesting to see the activity the essay has provoked. Atsme☯ 14:02, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

ok, let's talk about the reasons for the essay shall we? What is up with all the stuff about MEDRS in this essay? Atsme, you wrote that you have little experience on medical articles in WP, and as far as I know you have not worked on COI issues in WP.

What is described in the essay, Misplaced Pages:Conflict of Interest ducks, are ways that members of WP:WikiProject Medicine keep WP:FRINGE material out of Misplaced Pages. This essay seems driven in part by your content dispute over FRINGE content (the use of amygdalin as a cancer treatment in the article about G. Edward Griffin) - (where I am no longer active except for a recent RfC vote, but you are still very active).

In that article, you been trying for months now to remove MEDRS-sourced content critical of the use of amygdalin as a cancer treatment, and instead to write more positive content based on sources like naturalnews.com. For opposition to your efforts, see this discussion at BLPN, this discussion at Fringe noticeboard, this additional discussion at Fringe noticeboard, this discussion at RSN, and innumerable discussions on the article Talk page. including a current RfC there. Guy has been the one of the editors most consistently upholding policy against your efforts.

COI has never come up in that article.

your claim - highlighted in the quote box - that health-related articles are among the most conflicted ones in WP is not accurate in my experience, and discredits the essay. In the opinion of others who are experienced in these matters, such as Smallbones (see here for example) and DGG (see here), other subject matter fields are far more rife with COI editing. I believe that SV disagrees with your claim as well, as far as I can tell from her comments above.

In the discussion about developing this essay, you wrote about how policy is used to "censor" content on the basis of MEDRS. G. Edward Griffin is known for promoting conspiracy theories - for example, that the medical establishment has conspired to suppress amygdalin. Hm.

I'll end this by noting that the promotion of amygdalin as a cancer treatment is actually called quackery in the reliable biomedical literature (PMID 219680). There is quacking here, but it is not financial, but rather advocacy for FRINGE medicine.

I'll really end this by saying that the gemisch of ideas in the essay is exactly the reason why lowering the bar to tag someone as a conflicted editor, is a really bad idea. Way too often, editors in content disputes stoop to personal attacks out of an unWikipedian lack of imagination that people can, in good faith, have different perspectives. This essay is just not a good idea. This realization of it, especially ill-founded. Jytdog (talk) 15:34, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, I will give you the opportunity to strike your comments and apologize to me, so consider this a warning which I will also post on your TP. Since the article you mentioned is under DS for both BLP and FRINGE, I hope your behavior on this TP is actionable since BLPs apply to all articles and TPs. Your incivility, the unwarranted PAs and casting aspersions against me is deplorable behavior, and so is your misrepresentation of the situation at Griffin using diffs that do not support your claims. If Sarah (SV) cannot take action on it, I hope she will advise me on what steps I should take. You also need to strike what you included here: Misplaced Pages:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_Interest_ducks in an effort to gain advantage at the MfD, apparently the reason for your comments here considering you linked to it. Perhaps you should read the essay more closely. You just crossed the line. Atsme☯ 16:31, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

I gave difs for everything I wrote. What specifically are you objecting to? Thanks. I would be happy to strike anything that is not supportable. Jytdog (talk)

I have only encountered you Atsme (I think) at G. Edward Griffin and I'm afraid to say that Jytdog's characterization seems spot on: you've been POV-pushing fringe views and refusing to drop the WP:STICK there for some time. Alexbrn (talk) 16:46, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

It is wrong for you to cast aspersions, Alexbrn, the same way it is wrong for Jytdog. Both of you have not provided one diff that supports your allegations. Jytdog, providing diffs that do not support your allegations is not any different from providing no diffs. Your attempt to game the system at the ongoing MfD by linking to your comment here wherein you use WP:SYNTH to discredit me was a slick move, and one I hope our admins will consider most actionable. I never supported anything but NPOV and WP:PAG, and never did any of the things you and Alexbrn are accusing me of doing now. Your allegations above are unwarranted and uncivil, including your statement, "you been trying for months now to remove MEDRS-sourced content critical of the use of amygdalin as a cancer treatment," which is a downright lie. Adding diffs that show other editor's who are doing the same thing you are doing does not establish anything except the fact that your behavior is the kind of behavior that is mentioned in the essay you so adamantly oppose. I advise you both to include diffs with inline text attribution that support your claims. Jytdog, I actually thought the warning by Swarm when closing the recent ANI regarding your behavior would have done some good March 28, 2015, but apparently it has not. You are up to the same very dubious and uncivil behavior, casting aspersions with diffs that clearly do support your allegations. It's all POV-BS, including your PA with the above statement, "In the discussion about developing this essay, you wrote about how policy is used to "censor" content on the basis of MEDRS. G. Edward Griffin is known for promoting conspiracy theories - for example, that the medical establishment has conspired to suppress amygdalin. Hm.." That statement is false, not supported, and is not even relevant to this discussion. I have grown weary of your spurious allegations and attempts to discredit me. I will wait for SV's advice in this matter.

In the interim I will analyze the diffs you provided in your synth effort to deceitfully discredit me with the false allegations you keep making against me:

1. based on sources like naturalnews.com - there is not one mention in that diff regarding amygdalin, yet you used it to support your claim "you been trying for months now to remove MEDRS-sourced content critical of the use of amygdalin as a cancer treatment, and instead to write more positive content." Jytdog, based on your deceitful behavior, it appears you actually are deserving of a TB for all articles related to medical and health topics fully expanded. Btw, do you believe it is necessary for you to disclose any COIs you might have, particularly at the Essay, such as what you wrote about on your User Page and also here: ? I'm thinking you may be too close to the issues in WP:COIducks to not have a conflict. And don't forget, it is considered a COI whether it is real or perceived. Furthermore, I never tried to remove MEDRS-sourced content. Your statement is unconscionable and deserving of remedial action. But it doesn't end there. You continue with more diffs that do not support your allegations....
2. this discussion at BLPN - none of it supports your statements, rather they disprove everything you claim. Following are two diffs that flat-out contradict your statements, and further exemplifies why the essay is an absolute necessity, and one link which supported my statement: December 11, 2014 December 11, 2014 and
3. this discussion at Fringe noticeboard - again, it does not support your statement, and the proof is here: December 29, 2014
4. this additional discussion at Fringe noticeboard - same diff that I disproved above
5. this discussion at RSN - again, not supportive of his statement. The RSN was to get input - it was the discussion process for confirmation. See my closing comment which further disproves Jytdogs allegations January 23, 2015 Atsme☯ 18:39, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Just one diff tells the whole story: removal of the mainstream view that amygdalin promotion is textbook quackery, coupled with an uncritical presentation of Griffin's fringe views. Fringe POV-pushing. This kind of edit, and your embarrassment of an essay trying to justify it, are - I'm sorry to day - blights on this Project. Alexbrn (talk) 19:14, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

No, Alexbrn, what tells us the whole story is that your comment about "removal of the mainstream view", etc. is false, and that you are casting aspersions against me based on a lie. The section on his literary works clearly states:

Since the 1970s, the use of laetrile to treat cancer has been described in scientific literature as a canonical example of quackery and has not been shown to be effective in the treatment or prevention of cancer. Emanuel Landau, then a Project Director for the APHA, wrote a book review for the American Journal of Public Health, which noted that Griffin "accepts the 'conspiracy' theory ... that policy-makers in the medical, pharmaceutical, research and fund-raising organizations deliberately or unconsciously strive not to prevent or cure cancer in order to perpetuate their functions". Landau concludes that although World Without Cancer "is an emotional plea for the unrestricted use of the Laetrile as an anti-tumor agent, the scientific evidence to justify such a policy does not appear within it".

1. Nightingale SL (1984). "Laetrile: the regulatory challenge of an unproven remedy". Public Health Rep. 99 (4): 333–8. PMC 1424606. PMID 6431478.
2. Landau, Emanuel, Ph.D. (July 1976). "World without Cancer; the Story of Vitamin B₁₇" (PDF). American Journal of Public Health. 66 (7): 696. doi:10.2105/AJPH.66.7.696-a. ISSN 0090-0036. Retrieved 2008-03-05.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

What you just attempted to do is the same as what Jytdog has attempted to do, and I advise you both to go read WP:COIducks, and ask yourselves if any of the behavior mentioned in that essay possibly applies to you. Atsme☯ 18:08, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)OK....so.

• here is the link to naturalnews you provided in [in the diff i provided above. its headline: "The Laetrile Saga, Part II: Cancer Therapy and Medical Duplicity". How is that link not meant to support content about Laetrile?
• at BLP, both fringe notice boards, and RSN, consensus was against your position on Laetrile. And the really key thing, is that even after four months of your beating a horse on this, the content says pretty much the same thing it said before you started. You have found no consensus for the changes you've wanted to make to this content. Your first edit to the Grffin article was on Dec 10. 2014. here is a diff comparing just-before-Atsme and today.

content on laetrile in lead before: " He is also known for advocating the scientifically-unsupported view that cancer is a metabolic disease which can be cured by consuming more amygdalin, and for his promotion of the conspiracy theory that scientists and politicians are covering up this cure."

content in lead today: "He argues that cancer is a nutritional deficiency that can be cured by consuming amygdalin, a view regarded as quackery by the medical community."

the content in the body is too long to compare, but it is mostly unchanged.

your current version of the lead: "He wrote and produced several other documentary-style videos, most of which focused on topics covered in his books, such as the historicity of Noah's Ark, the Federal Reserve System, the Supreme Court of the United States, terrorism, subversion, alternative medicine, and foreign policy."

so.... what is not accurate about what i wrote? Jytdog (talk) 19:16, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Hello, I had stumbled upon the G Edward Griffen article and saw a lot of controversy so I thought I'd try to help. I saw Atsme talking calm and reasonable and others insulting her but I know sometimes there's more than meets the eye so I wanbted to figure out what the controversy was. Other editors didn't want to answer my questions and just wikilawyered with links to guidelines that didn't apply. Now I am wondering if amygdalin is the main issue? If that's it then it will help me to improve the article, knowing what the problem is is the first step! Popish Plot (talk) 14:32, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi Atsme, one problem with the essay is that it implies that FRINGE and MEDRS are invariably invoked to defend a COI, when in fact they're often invoked to defend against COI, and of course both are used when COI isn't an issue. Sarah (SV) 20:11, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

There must be a way to include the fact that MEDRS and FRINGE are sometimes/often seen in conjunction with COIDuck editing. I believe that the guideline can be used for good or for spin - there must be a way to make this clear in the essay if it isn't already. People are reading the MEDRS guideline differently, too, and that makes it an easy tool for manipulation towards a certain POV, given the editor knows how to (ab)use it. My guess is that the reason for the intense response to Atsme's essay is that it hits too close to home. The desperate attempts to paint her as a nutcase and discredit her work as an editor are repugnant. petrarchan47tc 21:06, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi Petra, MEDRS is treated as policy, on a par with BLP. FRINGE is less supported, and I've seen it clash with BLP a few times. But an essay that the community would support would have to acknowledge the good points about FRINGE too, including that it keeps out COI by insisting on independent sources. Sarah (SV) 21:42, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Sarah, isn't MEDRS a guideline, not a policy? That is a key distinction. Popish Plot (talk) 14:35, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi, Sarah - I actually missed that you have answered my question already. Sorry about that. petrarchan47tc 06:54, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree and also with SV's previous comment. One of the problems I had with the essay is that I believe strongly in FRINGE, and hate to see it implied that it is a weapon for COI editors. Indeed, when I first happened upon this general subject area, FRINGE and MEDRS functioned against COI editing. Coretheapple (talk) 21:59, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

So, a solution would be to point out the ways in which both of these guidelines are used for good as well as for spin, and address this in the essay(?). I have worked on different articles from the both of you, and from my experience, these guidelines are being abused. Perhaps we need to focus on showing (more) examples, but to survey edits takes hours and hours, and so far no one seems willing to go to the trouble. It seems to fall on deaf ears, too. My point is, this isn't an either-or situation, and what you see depends on the topic area you most frequently edit. At the end of the day, if someone is particularly passionate about some topic, and their editing shows this bias, they are likely going to abuse all sorts of guidelines and policies, so to me it seems silly to argue that MEDRS and FRINGE are somehow exempt from this fact. The essay helps explain what some editors are running into in areas of WP where others dare not tread (like GM), or simply have no interest.

Perhaps a special paragraph praising MEDRS and FRINGE would be a solution? petrarchan47tc 22:57, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

@Coretheapple: Perhaps, the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction with both MEDRS and Fringe. That was my experience when I was threatened with a substantial topic ban as part of this AN/I, where MEDRS and Fringe were used as "cudgel" against me. I had to write a lengthy defense, where I pointed out a circularity problem with how Fringe is defined and was used to establish what is RS and shows a potential for abuse by those with a strong Skeptic agenda who want their Skeptic sources to supersede and trump those in a particular specialized field they don't care for and would like to bash. I did agree to stand down and let them bash the particular field without further opposition, but that doesn't mean I think that the use MEDRS and Fringe in such cases are not still a problem or that I am not still concerned that they can be used to push an agenda contrary to NPOV and the best interests of Misplaced Pages and Misplaced Pages Policies and the creation of a quality encyclopedia. It brought about this discussion. David Tornheim (talk) 23:15, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

you know Petrarchan, instead of continually complaining about me, why don't you do the hard work that was done in the wifione case and bring an actual case against me sometime, somewhere (which you have never done) instead of just carrying a cross around about it? I know my work at the GMO topics is controversial and by now lots of people know that you are really opposed to it and believe i am either paid or an advocate. I am not paid, and I think my edits are NPOV, and I think any careful examination will show that. I encourage you to bring a case, like the one that brought Wifione down. That is the only way - literally the only way - that you are going to "get" me, which it seems pretty clear is your goal. I have said that about as clearly as I could in several places without saying it directly to you, but you don't seem to be catching that. So I am saying it directly to you now. If you want to "get" me, you have to go directly for me per NPOV. That is all you have. But please, lowering the bar on COI, and damaging MEDRS, are only going to harm Misplaced Pages. Your concern here has nothing to do with MEDRS, and everything to do with me. That is really clear by now.

I don't want to be egotistical, but from where I sit, Atsme was happy to jump on the bandwagon at ANI and rode it over here; i have no idea if you all knew where her beef with me arose. Now you do. Had nothing to do with COI nor with GMO. David is for sure aligned with you on the GMO stuff. Gandy has told me directly she thinks I am too active in the GMO articles and it makes her uncomfortable, but i think she has also never found that i cannot back up what i do, at the end of the day, on any given edit. (and that when i screw up, i acknowledge that and fix it) But in any case she made it clear to David, that she doesn't want to get dragged into this stuff (although maybe she changed her mind, I don't know). SV has expressed some concerns. groupuscule has made it very clear they think the GMO articles are bent, and in my view has the diligence and rhetorical skill to put a solid case together. So there you go. That is your possible team (as far as I know), and the only effort that will get you what you actually want.

But please don't mess up WP with bad proposals to go after me. Just get on with the NPOV case. But as always, you will do as you will. Jytdog (talk) 23:32, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

My comment about the misuse of MEDRS in GM articles is a reference to Goupuscule's comment here. Why don't I spend 3 years of my life trying to prove that WP has an advocacy problem, as WikiOne did? Because I have lost my faith in WP's ability and desire to respond appropriately when it comes to large special interests. Sarah (SV) had the idea to seek grants and pay for this work to be done, which sounds like a possible solution, but a large job.

As for J-dog taking all of this so personally, I will say again to him: You doth protest too much, methinks. petrarchan47tc 00:05, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog WP:Civility clearly identifies taunting or baiting as uncivil behaviours - I think you are treading a fine line with Petrarchan47.__DrChrissy (talk) 00:12, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

not taunting. dead serious. Jytdog (talk) 00:18, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

You're baiting to try to get someone to fight back and get banned. Just stick to reliable sources about GMO, or whatever topic. Popish Plot (talk) 14:41, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

i am not baiting. you don't know the background here. if you want to know, ask me and ask petrarchan and then judge. Jytdog (talk) 14:59, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

I am finding this all very informative, the background is being explained in these posts. But you are baiting, aka challenging, "why don't you do the hard work . . . ". Like I said, just stick to the reliable sources and the topic. Popish Plot (talk) 15:51, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) petrarchan, it is not fun to be hounded. nor is it pleasing to see key guidelines be degraded as you pursue your goals about me. Great lines from Robert Bolt (from here:

Alice More: Arrest him!
More: Why, what has he done?
Margaret More: He's bad!
More: There is no law against that.
Will Roper: There is! God's law!
More: Then God can arrest him.
Alice: While you talk, he's gone!
More: And go he should, if he was the Devil himself, until he broke the law!
Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast– man's laws, not God's– and if you cut them down—and you're just the man to do it—do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.

wise words. Jytdog (talk) 00:16, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

This isn't about you, Jytdog. I don't even understand the mindset that would lead you to make these comments here. We are attempting to address spin doctoring - getting rid of you would not be the solution (you are not that powerful) and I don't believe anyone thinks otherwise. petrarchan47tc 02:43, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

oh right when you talk about GM articles, you are talking about someone else. In light of this and this followed by this, and especially this.... that is about someone else... . Please tell me who you view as the "head of the GMO articles here, who is known on the web as a Monsanto shill going back many years, is also very active in the Pharma (or "health") articles.." and who are you talking about, when write to me "Further, the editing that has held sway over the GMO articles since you have been in control of them is being called into question,... The best encyclopedia articles are written in a dispassionate voice, showing all sides of the story with due weight, and not by industry insiders" (emphasis added). Who are you talking about? (real question) You cannot understand why it is clear as day you are talking about me? (real question) Jytdog (talk) 03:23, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Back to the essay

A) The MEDRS guideline does need clarity, as Atsme points out above. B) Sarah and Core, if you can suggest writing that would better encapsulate our range of experiences with these two guidelines, that would be helpful. It seems we have touched upon the third rail. The essay shouldn't imply that all uses of these guidelines are suspicious, and I'm not sure what is causing that impression so I can't offer any suggestions. petrarchan47tc 06:24, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Aside Agree that the MEDRS guideline needs looking at and also its application. Surely it should not be imposed in places such as here on the Foie gras article.__DrChrissy (talk) 11:54, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

What I find curious about Jytdog's PAs and his entire diatribe is why he relates to Misplaced Pages:COIducks in such an aggressive manner? The essay is about incivility and the best ways to respond to it. If an editor is not behaving in the negative manner described in the essay, why oppose its context considering it describes proper ways for an editor to respond when confronted by incivility? It actually serves to lessen disruptive behavior and explains some of the reasons the occasional newbie ends up with a block. As far as the expressed concerns over MEDRS, the essay clearly states: (my bold and underline for emphasis)

• MEDRS is a content guideline that is highly respected by the community. Read it, learn it, know it. The actionable policies that prevail are WP:VER, WP:NOR, WP:BLP and WP:FRINGEBLP. Learn the guidelines and how they effect policy.
• Fringe/PS is a content guideline that is highly respected by the community. Read it, learn it, know it. The actionable policies that prevail are WP:FRINGEBLP and WP:NPOV. Learn them well.

Will someone please explain to me how those statements undermine MEDRS? I am certainly supportive of ways to improve the essay, but I oppose calling a guideline a policy. When it becomes a policy, I will call it a policy. Sorry, but I will not use pretense. It is what it is, and until that changes, that is how it will/should be presented. There must be a reason it is not a policy, right? Ok, so fix it.

Furthermore, Jytdog's spin about amygdalin was another attempt to discredit me to gain advantage at the MfD . I forget, is such behavior described at COIducks? For the sake of accuracy, my mention of amygdalin in the Griffin BLP, (which is subject to WP:FRINGEBLP policy) was based on my concern over compliance with NPOV, not what Jytdog spinned above because I was not promoting amygdalin's use as a cancer treatment. I included the reports by the ACS and NIH as well as the ongoing research which was published in PLOS and MSKCC. There were several books and academic papers written about it which I considered to be enough significant mention in RS that the minority view belonged in the BLP according to applicable WP:PAG; not to advocate its use, but to include encyclopedic information of biographical material related to the author. Griffin's book actually advocates for more research of amygdalin and simply documents what was known to be true at the time. Griffin also advocates the medical freedom to choose which has also been censored from the article. There is much more to this issue than Jytdog has revealed in his cherrypicked comments, and far more than we need to discuss here. Jytdog's revert of my work was unwarranted . WP:PAG indicates that consensus and guidelines do not trump BLP policy but that isn't what happened at Griffin. I dropped the issue as I was advised to do, and now it appears the BLP is nothing more than an attack page against the author, and an assault on his political beliefs based on prevailing community consensus. In retrospect, I can understand why Jytdog brought up the Griffin BLP but he spun it the wrong way, and while experience does contribute to what one holds true, it is not the reason I wrote the essay. Atsme☯ 13:03, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

above you wrote: "The essay is about incivility and the best ways to respond to it" and i agree with that, somewhat. it was supposed to be about how to identify editors with a COI. Jytdog (talk) 14:18, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Stop armchair coaching and start adding what you believe needs to be added. You can also propose changes you think are necessary on the TP first. Pretty simple remedy, don'cha think? Atsme☯ 14:29, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

the essay you wrote is unfixable. as an editor you surely have encountered works by writers that were off-topic from the get-go. they said they would write about X but actually wrote about Y. that is what you have done. as i wrote in my !vote, there are behavioral cues of COI editing but you describe none of them. WP:TNT is what is needed here. Jytdog (talk) 14:57, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

My suggestion to you is to write your own essay. There is substantial input at the MfD that contradicts your POV. For the record, my request to you to strike your unwarranted allegations still stands. Atsme☯ 15:38, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog:, your combativeness, which we see on full display here (such as in challenging Petra to a kind of "Misplaced Pages duel") is apparently one of the underlying reasons for this essay. Whether or not you are "paid" or whatever (I don't believe that for a minute) you are so over-the-top sometimes that you give that impression. You also get down and dirty on occasion, as you were at BP, manipulative and warlike. It's hard to distinguish sometimes between the problems you yourself cause and the policy issues addressed in this essay. Coretheapple (talk) 15:54, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

I am sorry you took that as a challenge. It wasn't, but i do understand how you could take it that way. i really am sick of her saying bad things about me everywhere, and frequently. It feels like shit and it makes WP less than it should be, and that she is trying to drag the community down on her way there (and of course I know that her concerns are wider than me... but it is pretty clear that I am Exhibit 1) is bad for everybody. There is a way she can appropriately with her concerns, and I was telling her what that was. I did not mean it to come across at all as a challenge to a duel. really i didn't. and i really meant what i wrote - that tearing up COI and MEDRS to come after me (and those she views like me) is bad for WP.

Turning - What would you do in my shoes, Core? Have a look at the diffs above (and those are just a few of them!) and tell me how you would feel to be on the receiving end of that. Really. I generally ignore it (which is what WP:NPA advises) - and I really do feel bad for her, carrying all that anger around - but here i did respond. It was simple and direct. I did not intend it to be "challenging" at all. I know it is bizarre to tell someone how to use PAG to come after you, but i would rather she did that, than continue to harass me this way. it would be better for everyone. Jytdog (talk) 16:26, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Well if you feel you were attacked, you can start by ignoring it. Look I was attacked myself, along with a few other editors, on the user page of a rogue administrator who worked as a paid editor in a particularly sleazy and dishonest fashion and then lied about it, and doesn't like my mentioning his selfish, greedy and scummy activities. He put it on his talk page. It was a clearcut NPA and I ignored it. I didn't challenge him to a duel or try to invoke WP:POLEMIC though it was clearly applicable. This is not to say that you've been subject to personal attacks; I'm just saying that's the way to deal with them. I do know that they way you're behaving here is not new, and that you have only yourself to blame for the heat that results. Coretheapple (talk) 17:02, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

i did write above that i ignore them almost always. i am bummed that you are saying that i am responsible for someone else's behavior. that is dead wrong. we each responsible for what we do here. period, end of story. i acknowledge i can be too harsh sometimes (and i for sure went over the top with drchrissy which was uncharacteristic of me -- if it were i would have been blocked in a heartbeat). you should look through my diffs working with editors brought to COI - you will see how i am when i am not dealing with people attacking me all the time. Jytdog (talk) 17:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

What I'm suggesting is that while you're acknowledging that you are too harsh, you keep on being too harsh. Incidentally I'm still trying to figure out the pertinence of the three arb cases you raised in the deletion discussions. Coretheapple (talk) 17:27, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

(i hear you on the harsh thing - it is a challenge for me. i have tried to become better. f*cking stubborn humanity - the Shakers don't call human nature "stiff" for nothing.) i don't want to answer about the arbcom cases if you don't want to hear - and you didn't actually ask. should i? Jytdog (talk) 17:38, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

I raised the issue on the deletion page, but if you want to respond or not is your choice. Coretheapple (talk) 17:54, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

i started replying there and didn't save it, as i didn't want to drive mess up the !voting part. but you know what, i will reply in the discussion section there, thanks. Jytdog (talk) 18:02, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

On the need for MEDRS clarity

It seems the conversation went sideways, but WP does need to have a clear idea of what is accepted under MEDRS, and either make it a policy or let it remain a guideline, but not both. I noticed that even the deletion proposer for the "COIDuck" essay is in agreement. I found this conversation at WP:Project Medicine talk. petrarchan47tc 01:34, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

"It would be nice to get this language clarified in the MEDRS document, as it currently seems to read "generally omit in vitro and animal data" or at least "don't imply that it is relevant in peoople". Overall the language appears non-clearcut, which may simply represent the fact that it is a compromise document with many fathers/mothers." --Formerly 98 (talk) 01:30, 28 February 2014

"I think the reason some of us see a disconnect is that of the 4500 words of the MEDRS article, nearly 20% (and mainly in the first third of the guideline) describe when and how it is OK to use primary references. At a minimum its confusing. --Formerly 98 (talk) 22:26, 27 February 2014

Essay suggestions?

I noticed that Core changed his iVote to Keep/Userfy. Should I assume that the language regarding use of the 2 guidelines in question is no longer problematic? If you, or Sarah, have wording changes to suggest, it would be lovely to hear. Thanks for all the input. petrarchan47tc 19:26, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Actually I crossed off the "userfy," as one of the commenters, Groupuscle I think it's called, correctly pointed out that "it's just an essay" and doesn't have to be a scientific pronouncement on Misplaced Pages policies. After all, something called "ignore all rules" is also a policy. I think it has to be redone to be more convincing. Remember too that my "keep" is in the minority at this point. Coretheapple (talk) 20:00, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Hm. Groupuscule's was one of the few policy-based arguments, and since iVotes are meant to be 'counted' according to the strength of the argument, I wonder if it would make sense for you to add the above note to your comment at the AfD explaining your vote change (if you haven't already). Danke, petrarchan47tc 00:29, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Well I did expand my rationale and cited Groupuscle. But look, to be frank, the Deletes are so overwhelming it does not bode well for that essay. Coretheapple (talk) 00:31, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

• Just to expand a bit on my feelings about this essay, per the title of this subsection, my suggestion would be that the essay be reframed so as to take into consideration the real concerns of people with "skeptical" points of view, for whom WP:FRINGE is very important. As in many areas, COI editing can cut both ways. While I'm seeing here some feeling that FRINGE is abused by COI editors, I have seen it disregarded by editors who have a vested interest in pushing fringe points of view. There is a lot of money on both sides of certain debates, such as homeopathy, organic foods, and so on. So this is one area I would definitely address. Coretheapple (talk) 00:37, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

That's helpful. I haven't experienced this personally, we might need to find someone who has worked in those topic areas. petrarchan47tc 01:14, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Coretheapple and Petrarchan47 the retired one - I just made some changes - see what you think of it now. Is this what happens when a stub goes online? Geez Louise - I've got bee stings all over me. Also, not all of the participants made note of their COI statements and should have. The essay is about COIducks so why are they not including their COI statements? Atsme☯ 01:44, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm not comfortable even mentioning "COI", so won't comment on that. But I have been suggesting (the obvious) that we should be able to identify advocacy editing by edit histories and patterns of behaviour alone. I might prefer the term "COI-like" editing. It could be that an editor has retired but still has a deep love for her prior employer/field, and close friends working in the industry. If she joined WP to express that (bias) deep love all over our articles, the damage is equal to that of COI editing, no?

Core, I was also going to ask you to take another look at the essay and possibly give suggestions. Further, what would be the proper way to alert those at the AfD that there have been substantial changes to the essay since the AfD began, and perhaps noting that there have been some iVotes based on misunderstandings about its content? As a side note, Atsme really shouldn't be taking all the bullets, she asked us for help editing the (brand-new) essay and has yet to receive much, if any. It was really too soon to judge the essay, and it's quite unfortunate what has happened. It pains me to see another editor go through this. (But it did shine a light on some of the very behaviour we are addressing.) petrarchan47tc 03:15, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

As suggested by the supporters of this essay, I have read it again. It remains, in my view, a very bad and poorly conceived and poorly written essay that promotes battleground behavior, and I continue to support its deletion. Cullen Let's discuss it 03:52, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunate, but that's your choice. Night all. Atsme☯ 03:57, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

• @Atsme: Reading through the essay again, what troubles me about it remains: you talk a lot about COI, but you fail to establish in any convincing way how the behavior that you describe is reflective of a COI. Most of what you discuss is already prohibited by a bunch of policies and guidelines, such as WP:OWN. I'm not sure you even can make such a tie-in; it might be a "mission impossible" situation. That is why I believe that your best bet is to take a focused, narrow look at one particular issue that you feel is rife with COI, and build a focused essay around that. I think you may be spinning wheels with this essay, over and above the fact that it seems to be headed for deletion. For example, MEDRS abuse. Maybe an essay along the lines of "MEDRS is a hammer not an anvil" or something to that effect, if indeed there is abuse of MEDRS. By the way, I'm not saying there is abuse of MEDRS. I'm just saying that if you feel that MEDRS is being abused, then you should focus on that.

There may be a way of determining COI based solely upon edits, but apart from obvious cases it's really not easy to do. That is why I personally would prefer to spend my time dealing with cases that stink to high heaven of COI but that simply can be dealt with through ordinary editing. Look at my recent contributions and you can see I've been focusing on a couple of really blatantly bad articles where I suspect COI editing, but in which I haven't alleged it because 1) it's not necessary and would be pointless 2) I am not sure. I suspect there might be connected contributors in one instance, and might raise that at an appropriate time, but even if there are, it's not all that important. Our COI rules are weak so even if there is a COI, so what? Not much you can do about it. Coretheapple (talk) 14:47, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Not ready for mainspace?

I’m concerned that edits to substantially improve the essay might not help at this point, because so many people have already voted on the initial version, and they may not update their vote based on the improvements. I’m wondering if it would be best to again to work on it in user/draft space. I think in light of the Wifione case, an essay on COI ducks makes sense, but we need to be very careful not to in any way imply that editors who adhere to wp:medrs or wp:fringe are doing something wrong, because when those guidelines are properly utilized, they are of clear benefit to WP. It is misuse of policies and guidelines to push POV with the perversion of consensus, gaming the system, wp:own etc that is of concern here, not requiring quality sources. I think the essay may have been read and interpreted in ways other than intended, and at this point, I’m not sure what is the best course of action in terms of getting the best essay possible on this important topic up and running. Sarah (and talk page stalkers) any thoughts on this?--BoboMeowCat (talk) 14:57, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Oh I definitely agree with you. Frankly I don't see any significant improvement anyway. I'd suggest that Atsme go back to the user space, though I continue to feel that trying to ascertain COI from behavior patterns, and distinguishing COI behavior from non-COI behavior, is going to be hard. I've worked on many COI articles, and usually the COI is so blatant that it's pretty indisputable, or it is admitted. But in cases where the COI is not blatant, how can one determine there is COI? Is it productive to even try? I'd like to get SlimVirgin's view on this; this is her page and I don't believe she has weighed in on this issue lately or on the deletion page either. Coretheapple (talk) 15:05, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't have the time or energy to ping everybody, but I'd like to get the views of other "keep" people on this isuse. They also should weigh in on the essay itself. I don't know if this is necessarily the best place to engage in such a discussion actually. Coretheapple (talk) 15:07, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Core, Bobo - let's move this discussion to User_talk:Atsme/sandboxCOIduckery. I imagine SV is sick of reading this mess by now. The conflicts over the essay which is about conflicts of interest are ironic and speaks volumes for why the essay is needed. Perhaps you are not seeing it from a newbie perspective? Anyway - let's move the discussion over there, please? Atsme☯ 16:03, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Good idea, Atsme, I started a section on this topic over there: ] --BoboMeowCat (talk) 16:49, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, that's the place for it. I will copy my extended reply from above over there. Coretheapple (talk) 17:03, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Given that "COI duck" basically means "pharma shill", I think we now know enough to be certain that this essay is worthless. Guy (Help!) 22:10, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Guy, must you be so hurtful? That isn't at all what I intended. Have you even read the essay? Instead of criticizing it like you are, why don't you offer some productive suggestions so I can make it better? Atsme☯ 22:13, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Here's my productive suggestion: delete it. Your accusations of COI are absolutely standard examples of the "shill gambit", a form of argument from personal incredulity, where people ascribe financial motives because they cannot believe that anybody would argue the mainstream case for any other reason. Coming from someone who is so very keen on accusing everybody of casting aspersions, this essay shows a singular lack of self-criticism. Guy (Help!) 22:19, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

@JzG: do you think that there is any purpose in trying to ascertain COI from behavior? That is how this essay originated. Coretheapple (talk) 22:42, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm very interested to hear Guy's response too. petrarchan47tc 23:55, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

There are many ways COI can be discerned. This essay has nothing to do with any of them, as far as I can tell it's more concerned with promoting the idea that people who promote the mainstream perspective are doing so only because they are paid shills, an entirely routine debating tactic by apologists for quackery which has absolutely no place on Misplaced Pages. We already have much more useful essays, including the canonical WP:DUCK. There is no need for an additional essay that serves to embolden people in making spurious claims of COI, and actually speculation about COI is treading a fine line on Misplaced Pages, it may be considered WP:OUTING or harassment, so it needs to be handled with great tact, something absent from this essay. 163.244.62.181 (talk) 07:32, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Would you all mind commenting on this excerpt as well? From the WBB case:

Conflict of Interest guideline

Many issues concerning paid editing, anonymous editing, outing and harassment, are unresolved. Our policies and guidelines are complicated and sometimes contradictory. Investigating, sanctioning and/or exonerating editors on the basis of who they are or what they do in real life is not only controversial but often impossible. Furthermore, extreme cases apart, there is no consensus about the extent that editors may edit articles on topics with which they are personally involved. Hence, of necessity, review must focus primarily on the editing patterns of those editors about whom problems are claimed. petrarchan47tc 00:17, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

• Hi Atsme, I'm sorry, but I agree with Core that it's better moved to user space. I see two main issues.

First, the essay doesn't distinguish, perhaps deliberately, between advocacy and COI. A COI is not just about beliefs and desires. A COI is when an external relationship undermines an editor's role on Misplaced Pages. A book author has a COI in relation to articles about her books, but an editor who likes those books does not have a COI just because she likes them, even if those feelings might lead to NPOV violations.

If you want to argue that there is no functional difference between advocacy based on likes and dislikes, and COI, that's fine, but it's an argument that has to be made. The equivalence argument ignores that COI editors are unlikely to change their minds about an issue even in the face of strong evidence, particularly if paid. It also underestimates the damage to public confidence caused by COI editing.

The second issue is MEDRS. The essay says: "MEDRS is a content guideline ... The actionable policies that prevail are WP:VER, WP:NOR, WP:BLP and WP:FRINGEBLP." (FRINGEBLP is part of FRINGE, by the way, which isn't policy, though it's correct in that it says BLP takes precedence over FRINGE.) This is problematic as written because MEDRS is policy in all but name. There shouldn't be a tension between V, NOR and MEDRS; V and NOR are more general sourcing policies, and MEDRS is consistent with them. And I can't think of a situation in which we'd have to choose between MEDRS and BLP. There's nothing to stop you from writing an essay opposing parts of MEDRS (I believe we have one that opposes BLP), but it's unlikely to gain community support. An essay helping people how to use MEDRS would be extremely helpful. Sarah (SV) 00:26, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

@SlimVirgin:I don't know Wiki-Law well enough to know how the WP:MfD/WP:AfD process works. If an MfD/AfD results in delete, does that delete apply to user space or not? It was asserted here that it also applies to userspace. That does not sound right to me, unless the original complaint was very clear that it applied to both... Also, if Atsme agrees or moves the essay back to Userspace, does that allow the AfD/MfD to end? David Tornheim (talk) 00:59, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi David, I don't think the closing admin will apply the deletes to user space, unless s/he deems the essay very harmful. Regarding whether an agreement to userfy would allow the MfD to close, it might, but there's probably little point in doing that now. Sarah (SV) 01:23, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

SV, I think you've captured my views very well. Dealing with COI is sometimes like dealing with shadows, and dealing with it can be frustrating and is not always productive. One reason I asked for @JzG: to weigh in is because I wanted to get his opinion, not because I wanted to sandbag him or yell at him. I think that it is very conceivable that there it's futile to try to deal with COI as one is in effect trying to discern motives with inadequate evidence. It's more productive sometimes to deal with the bad articles, the douchebag articles if you'll pardon my profanity, rather than spending a lot of time prognosticating about the motives of some of their authors. Coretheapple (talk) 02:21, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

But what if you see that it is not just one or two articles, but whole categories of articles? What if you notice that the editing environment is different at those articles, that suddenly the rules are being misapplied, and you are taken to a noticeboard where a whole team of friends show up to 'vote' about what a horrible, disruptive editor you are? This is happening, and it needs to be addressed. Editors are also being mistreated during this process, as is the content of the Pedia. It isn't a pleasant editing environment, and this is one way content disputes are won by spindoctors.

When you stumble into this, it's a very intimidating and confusing experience. I think you remember when I found the March Against Monsanto article in the AfD and decided to work on it (as there was ample RS and it seemed a fun, easy project). This is when I received my first warnings and drama to my talk page, after years of being here and even battling with BP (which, compared to this crowd, was like afternoon tea), and was taken to my first noticeboard for edit warring. A team of people guarded this little irrelevant article non-stop, and spent the entire summer arguing about how many protesters attended the march. This strange activity is not just happening at one article, though. This phenomenon and gang has taken over large swaths of Misplaced Pages, and I mean that sincerely. Because it is such an unpleasant experience, where the rules aren't the same as everywhere else on WP, and you don't have access to them, and where bullying is the norm, people are leaving those sets of articles, and some are leaving the Project altogether. I am being told this at my talk page and in emails. This phenomenon-which-has-no-name is the reason I am not editing here anymore. petrarchan47tc 02:56, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi, SlimVirgin - first, I apologize to you for my part in this extensive essay discussion on your TP and to the COIduck supporters for my inability to get poop-ola done about it. The COI ducks essay and the following results demonstrate where WP stands on such issues:

Paid Editing Proposals In November 2013, there were three main discussions and votes on paid editing: No paid advocacy (talk) (closed: opposed) Paid editing policy proposal (talk) (closed: opposed) Conflict of interest limit (talk) (closed: opposed)

Follow the money trail and you'll find the answers. Advocacy is also mentioned in WP:COI probably because if you're not advocating for something, you won't have a conflict....maybe. Wiki should divide itself up into separate communities with different sections for its multitude of topics like en.ScienceWikipedia, enMedicineWikipedia, enBiographiesWikipedia, etc. each with its own subsections - similar to how the Categories are done, only in actual sections, each with its own main page, own admins and the like. Each project pretty well has its own community anyway, and based on my experiences, not all editors are welcome to collaborate on topics occupied by COIducks, especially if there is any disagreement over their POV. Of course, their POV isn't the problem - it's your POV that's the problem, even if it's NPOV. I was actually advised to stop editing a particular BLP just before an RfC determined I was right about noncompliance with NPOV but that decision ended up being twisted beyond recognition. Of course the closer and 10 year veteran biography editors were wrong, and they were right. It's even worse if the overseeing admin supports the community and reprimands you instead of the violators. Sorry for the skepticism, but I now have a better understanding of why retirement looked so appealing to Petrarchan47. I've finally seen the belly of the beast, and quite frankly it stinks. They refer to it as growing into a seasoned editor. Seasoned for what? A duck's dinner? Yep they like it salted. I used to think policies mattered, and that consensus didn't trump policy, and there was a difference between policies and guidelines, but that's a belief held only by newbies and the naive. The only thing that really matters are the numbers and who comprises your tag-team and WP:IAR which appears to be the standard these days.

Oh, and David Tornheim, it says on Misplaced Pages:Miscellany_for_deletion that User pages about Misplaced Pages-related matters by established users usually do not qualify for deletion., but then it could be exactly as Sarah indicated. I added a note below the arrogant close instructions at the page. Chacun à son goût. Atsme☯ 03:14, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

This is not a user page, you put it in Misplaced Pages space. That said, user pages that are polemical or which promote an anti-policy agenda have always been fair game for deletion, it happens all the time. 163.244.62.181 (talk) 07:32, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Atsme, you just validated what I wrote above, that your essay about COI ducks was really about your frustrations at G. Edward Griffin, where as far as I know, concerns about COI have never been raised. Yet even in what you just wrote, you refer to "COIducks". i get it that you are frustrated about your views not finding consensus there, but you are mooshing that frustration into something unrelated, that other editors talking here have been concerned with for a long time. SV, Core, and I (and i believe petrarchan too) worked on the multiple concurrent efforts to make paid editing against policy following the wiki-pr scandal and tried to get them passed.... and SV has worked on these issues longer than any of us. i tried to warn you way back in Dec 2014 when you first got involved in the Griffin article (and your first controversy in WP) to take it easy, not personalize things, and really listen to the other folks involved, and really talk. instead you continued just as fiercely, remained adamant (as in rock hard) in your views about what BLP calls for and now, four months later, you are as adamant, but now bitter and frustrated, as your views have gotten no traction - not at the article, and not on any notice board. It didn't have to work out that way. your claiming that nobody agrees with you because they are corrupt.... oy. i know by now that you don't like me and don't trust me. perhaps others can help you see that you are looking in the wrong place for the source of your unhappinesss. i'll stop responding here now. Jytdog (talk) 12:12, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I, too, have a long history of opposing COI edits, and have also rooted out some miscreants on Misplaced Pages in my time, and been viciously attacked for it into the bargain.

As a long time opponent of quackery I have also been accused of being a "pharma shill" more times than I can count, by fans of both individual quacks and of institutionalised quackery.

For some reason those who promote lucrative woo seem unable to accept that anybody might have any reason for promoting the reality-based view other than covert payment.

I am unwilling to ascribe such a basic and ridiculous fallacy to Atsme, who does not strike me as stupid at all, but whether it was the intention or not, this essay absolutely falls into that trap.

The "shill gambit" fallacy is a manifestation of cognitive dissonance, the inability to accept that something in which you believe, is worthless or worse. It's ironic that Atsme specifically calls this out int he essay, but with the rather obvious intent that, faced with quackery, supporters of the mainstream view should open their minds, presumably to the point that their brains fall out. Guy (Help!) 16:33, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

@JzG: I hear you, but the question that I'm trying to address here is this: putting aside ATsme's effort, which I agree is flawed, is there any way of discerning COI from a pattern of behavior ("ducks" so to speak)? I just wonder if we may be spinning our wheels over all of this. Coretheapple (talk) 20:25, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

For example, someone just made the following comment in the deletion discussion. It's hard to argue with this: "The essay takes the multiple-policy-violating stance that it is appropriate to assume a coi given certain behaviors. If that approach has not already been identified as actionable at ArbCom, it should be given AGF, BATTLE, DR, CON, CIVIL, HAR, NPA, etc. I suggest you review ArbCom for what is actionable, and start a new essay on what you find that isn't redundant with current policies and guidelines." I don't know about the "multiple-policy violating" part, but the rest sort of makes sense. Coretheapple (talk) 20:54, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Of course there is, but it is far better not to encourage it, since that is the path to witch-hunts and outing. Normally a COI becomes evident either through persistent non-neutral editing (which we control in the usual way) or, much more commonly, through naivety, since few COI editors even think about trying to hide it.

The ones which are a long-term problem are practitioners in a field where the practitioners' view is badly out of line with the scientific consensus. Cold fusionists, for example, or homeopaths. Guy (Help!) 22:11, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

@JzG:, Jytdog you both know full well that I've put up with a lot of poopy from both of you, some of which went over the edge, but perhaps some day if I'm still alive when you reach the age of semi-retirement, we can meet at a pub and reflect on it. I have a feeling your views will be much different, but who knows? It is what it is. I just hope you will actually read and digest what I'm trying to relay. Your attempts to connect Griffin to the greater context of this issue is a stretch, but I commend you for your last ditch efforts. BLP issues don't extend much beyond BLP policy which trumps all other PAG, so stop trying to make it appear as though guidelines do. Jytdog initially brought up Griffin to gain advantage at the MfD, and while I appreciate his bringing more attention to the real NPOV issues at that BLP, all I'm seeing is another failed attempt by both of you to connect everything I do to Griffin. You would probably switch to citing North American Piedmontese cattle if you thought there was a way to connect bulldung to me. While I hate to disappoint - Griffin is not what inspired the essay. Griffin is a BLP, although I will admit that MEDRS was brought into it as I explained on Jytdog's TP . Please, please, please - stop trying to make me out to be something I'm not and stop trying to connect Griffin to COI. Try to focus more on the reality, and what this collaborative effort is trying to accomplish, and above all, AGF. The essay is not about me, so please stop trying to make it so. You both know a COI/advocacy problem exists, so wipe the sand out of your eyes, and read the posts at respective TP, at ARBCOM, at AN, at ANI, at 3RR and particularly the KEEPs at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_Interest_ducks#SURVEY because what those editors are saying is important whether you want to admit it or not. Did you ever stop to think that perhaps the reason the disputes haven't multiplied exponentially is because of the retardants in place that protect you from flame throwers? Reflecting those issues is not an indication they don't exist. The issues are a grass roots issue, and WP has lost quite a few GF editors as a result. It's time to start thinking Jack and the Beanstalk because that beanstalk is growing much higher than the grass. You can either deal with it now or ignore it but it will eventually force you to pay attention. As more and more articles crop up on the internet criticizing WP than articles that commend it, you'll understand my concerns. Never think it can't happen. Atsme☯ 22:03, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

As so often before, you are focusing on the minority who agree with some part of what you say and misinterpreting this as broad support for all that you say.

When you invite me to "read and digest" what you have written, you come across as condescending and patronising. It is perfectly possible for a long-time Wikipedian like me to read your essay and not accept it all, as is the case with me, Jytdog and several others here. That I guess is why there is a large majority for Delete at the MfD right now. You don't seem to be very good at accepting the possibility that you might be wrong, though your essay recommends the reality-based community to consider the possibility that you are right (we have: you aren't). You may not like the fact that we are judging this article on the basis of your long-term efforts to whitewash G. Edward Griffin's involvement in one of the worst health frauds in US medical history. This conclusion is drawn from your actions alone, yet your essay seeks to explain it as everybody else being at fault. Can you see why we don't think a lot of that? Are you really so lacking in self-criticism?

I've been dealing with COIs both on Misplaced Pages and via OTRS for years and I do not recognise anything in this essay which I would find useful in that endeavour.

And I do mean that. I wrote the standard OTRS boilerplate reply for advice to individuals seeking to change their Misplaced Pages biographies, and for companies seeking to buff up their Misplaced Pages presence. I really do know a bit about this.

COI editing is a known issue, and this essay does not describe it usefully. The canonical example is Gregory Kohs, but WordBomb, Wifione and others are also well known. The WordBomb / Mantanmorland case is illustrative: both sides had a COI, both ended up sanctioned, neither really got what they wanted.

The overwhelming impression here is that you are trying to pretend that a consensus of reality-based editors, represents a COI cabal, and the reason looks to most of us here to be a continuation of your long-standing attempts to whitewash one of the worst health frauds in US history in order to make a prominent promoter of the fraud, look better. Ten out of ten for persistence, zero out of ten for following policy. I don't know if this is really what you are trying to do, but it's what it looks like. Guy (Help!) 22:35, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

@JzG: Indeed, funny you should mention it, but I just carried out bold edits to MyWikiBiz, was reverted and have just commenced an RfC. I'm not familiar with the other cases, but I sort of understand your point here. COI is just thrown around recklessly sometimes. Hell I was just accused of it on the MyWikiBiz talk page! How's that for irony. But this being an essay, what is the harm of encapsulating COI behavior? I'm frankly surprised you feel it can be done. I'm not so sure. Coretheapple (talk) 23:43, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

You might just as well try to change Jimbo's article to say "founder" instead of "co-founder". These things are policed, and largely by the same people. You know where you'll find the discussion, and it's not on Misplaced Pages (not least because a fair number of those doing the monitoring are banned). Guy (Help!) 05:51, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes I did notice that this article has WP:OWN issues, looking through the editing history. It really seems to go out of its way to be bad. A voice sample? That doesn't even pass the laugh test. Also, do my eyes deceive or is a checkuser helping to run a site that doxes people? Coretheapple (talk) 11:58, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Coretheapple I see that as an example of conflict of interest and paid editing on wiki being a legit problem, so let's not ignore it. Popish Plot (talk) 19:22, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

There is an RfC ongoing at the talk page, and all interested may weigh in. Coretheapple (talk) 19:32, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I will not get into a tit for tat with you, Guy - been there, done that. You keep validating my point whenever you bring up the 30+ year old laetrile incidents and refuse to acknowledge what has transpired since then regarding the language you use. It's all irrelevant to the COI discussion anyway, so who cares? The fact remains...the BLP is about a guy who wrote a book, who he is, and what motivated him to write that book. Your attempts to make it into something it is not is not much different from your attempts to make me into something I'm not. You can drape roses all over your reasons for doing so, but it doesn't erase the fact that Griffin is a BLP...and we have established policies to follow, not just guidelines...POLICIES. Forgive me, but I liken what you're doing to sprinkling Pine-O-Pine on bear poop. It's still bear poop only now it smells like bear poop on pine needles. (pause while I rescue a pea that just jumped off my plate onto my laptop...seriously). Hot diggity, I really am a good cook. Anyway, this discussion has devolved which is not unusual when POVs are at issue. Enjoy your evening or your day, whatever the case may be, and as they say in the UK...cheers!! Atsme☯ 23:53, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Break 2

Hello Atsme. I was reading about laetrile here https://en.wikipedia.org/Laetrile I see it says it had a history of being used for cancer but now is considered to not help with cancer. Well what can we do. I know sometimes like with medical marijuana helping prevent cancer there are just not enough studies to say for sure, and they don't do the studies because they know what the result will be, but in this case it seems they did studies, double blinds with mice and it says no effect. But are you not saying whether it works or not, you just care that it be mentioned in the G Edward Griffen article? I saw other editors said that article should be deleted anyway because Griffen isn't notable enough. I would say maybe he's not notable for supporting laetrile but that is not the main thing he is known for anyway. Popish Plot (talk) 13:42, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

@Atsme: I think that you have to acknowledge that there are genuine concerns being raised here about the utilization of your essay for the purposes of advancing fringe medical issues. However, where I depart from the people who favor deletion is that this is just an essay. It does not establish policy but just represents what editors say. JzG, you seem to believe that in fact an essay showing COI behaviors can be written. I have my doubts. But if so, why doesn't someone make the effort? However, I suggest that it be written on a user page with a significant period of comment first. Coretheapple (talk) 13:53, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Seems like a good essay to me, just common sense and reminders to assume good faith. Not sure the reason for drama. I see lot of odd essays, one says don't let friends of gay people edit. It's kidding around I guess but just very offensive. But the essays are mostly meant for humor I think. Popish Plot (talk) 17:45, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

You have an awfully large number of edits to meta-space promoting controversial material for one who joined Misplaced Pages so recently. One might be inclined to look for webbing between the toes...

Laetrile is quackery. The history shows it very clearly. It is not a vitamin, there has never been any evidence that cancer is caused by a deficiency of it, and there is no reliable evidence that supplementation with it can cure cancer. The recent studies of potential effects of amygdalin are not relevant to this. I have explained why, in detail, several times, but Atsme doesn't seem to believe me even though she admitted that I am obviously very much better informed than she is on this. Similarly, "medical marijuana" is, for the most part, quackery. There are some therapeutic effects of THC and other canabinoids, but smoking weed doesn't cure cancer, in fact it causes it. Most of the people promoting it are just looking for a way to make smoking weed legal, I reckon. Inhalation of smoke is unlikely to be a supportable delivery mechanism for any medication. Guy (Help!) 20:30, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps SlimVirgin should write this essay, if the subject appeals to her and if she feels it would be a useful exercise. I'm not thrilled with the idea of promoting quackery, even in an essay. Coretheapple (talk) 21:21, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Coretheapple, I actually have acknowledged everything that has taken place, including all the responses. I have a fairly good idea of why some took offense to the essay while others did not. I have became a popular target as author of the essay although several editors actually offered to help improve it, a few actually did. As you may have noticed, I already have one target on my back for opposing the way Griffin's BLP is written and was accused of all sorts of crazy stuff that was not true, and the PAs continue. The spurious allegations being tossed around about me are unsupported and make excellent examples of what takes place when an editor disagrees with whatever you want to call it but it appears to stem from an entrenched POV regarding how certain articles will be represented in WP, the latter of which throws NPOV to the wind. I am on record as having protested the PAs and the responses are on record as well. And Popish Plot, you might want to take note regarding the following.

I find it curious that the Griffin BLP was brought into this discussion in the first place as it appears to be what I consider tactical deployment to gain advantage at the MfD but I'm not sure under what policy such behavior would apply, if one even exists. Core, you said, I think that you have to acknowledge that there are genuine concerns being raised here about the utilization of your essay for the purposes of advancing fringe medical issues. Yes, I acknowledge that concerns have been raised, but I am a bit undecided as to whether or not I agree with your assessment and hope you can help me to better understand. May I ask the impetus behind your question? Was it the comments made by Guy and/or Jytdog about laetrile or amygdalin? If so, then their tactical deployment worked, despite being based on false pretenses. Is there a particular instance you can point me to that demonstrates where FRINGE/PS either made it into an article or was deflected from an article, and how my essay would have affected it either way?

Two more questions for you since the Griffin article was used at the essay to discredit me. There is little doubt that the Griffin BLP is less focused on biographical material about an author and more about discrediting his POV, or that it leaves readers with the impression that the author promotes quackery, (arrgh, dislike that term - it is so antiquated as are the over 25 to 35 yr old sources used to cite it). To begin, the book and his lectures start off with a disclaimer about laetrile as a cancer treatment. Griffin in fact advocates medical freedom of choice, and further research of amygdalin based on documented evidence by medical physicians (who were once considered mainstream). Amygdalin (a natural substance) is also commonly called laetrile (not to be confused with the actual synthetic drug Laetrile, which is prominently noted in the BLP as not approved by the FDA, and not scientifically supported, etc.) .

My questions to you

1. Would you censor any and all mention of recent research in the article and stick with 25 to 30 year articles in medical journals, or would you allow mention, but not undue per WP:FRINGE based on the conclusions in the following sources? .
2. Would you include any mention in the BLP about the MSKCC cover-up considering Griffin's book talks about a conspiracy to keep the results from the public? Regardless of it being true or false, it is not our job to judge, only to include RS material. The issue is relevant to the book, therefore I felt it was notable enough for inclusion. Just curious to know your take on it since it was brought up at the MfD in some strange attempt to discredit my motivations for writing the essay.

Sidebar Note to SlimVirgin - if you feel I need to provide diffs for any of the incidents I described even though no names were mentioned, I will certainly accommodate with diffs to avoid potential problems. My mention of the incidents are not to be construed as an indictment against anyone, rather it is to be considered a generalization of behavior (not actionable) regarding what some editors may or may not experience and why it can be extremely confusing for some of the more inexperienced editors to understand what's going on. I can't thank you enough for allowing us to discuss these issues openly and respect your input in helping us find resolve.

Core, following is my final line of questioning. Based on your own experiences,

1. How would you summarize the Griffin incident in comparison to what is happening now at the essay?
2. Do you consider it advocacy behavior? COI behavior? Tag-team behavior, or none of the above?
3. Do you think I am exhibiting conspiratorial behavior, or that there may be an actual conspiracy, or none of the above?
4. What do you believe is at the root of the behavior being exhibited around us? Advocacy? COI? None of the above?

Each side has their own version of a story, of course. As far as I'm concerned, names don't even matter as much as the overall behavior being exhibited which is the problem area I wanted to help resolve. I thought if I could help other editors properly identify the problem areas and learn how to cope with them, it would somehow prove helpful. If we keep denying the problem exists, and refuse to identify it for what it is, or what it causes or what causes it, or the proper steps to take for remedial action, we might as well be spitting into gale force winds. I think prevention is the best cure, (and I hope that comment doesn't get me in trouble with the Fringe cabal, if one exists. ), but as long as our PAGs remain vague and open to different interpretations, not to mention WP:IAR, the behavior will continue, and that is what I consider to be a most unfortunate circumstance. I also think WP:IAR has more of a consequence for advancing problem areas than my essay, but I will concede to the MfD close whatever it turns out to be, and will leave it at that. Atsme☯ 21:34, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

You've hinted before that as a writer you go for an angle. The statement that "each side has their own version of a story" is a common theme among proponents of quackery, who seek to portray a "debate" between two opinions of equal weight. This view of the world is profoundly wrong: science is inherently neutral on these matters, and the scientific consensus, by its nature, includes all significant views, weighed according to their merits. In matters of science, any compromise between a correct statement and a false statement, is a false statement. This is not like competing religious or political "truths", it is an objective fact that there is no "vitamin B17", it is an objective fact that cancer is not caused by a deficiency in this non-existent "vitamin", and it is an objective fact that supplementation of the non-existent "vitamin" does not cure cancer. Those are the claims at issue.

And that's where you're going wrong. You are consistently failing to distinguish between matters of opinion, and matters of fact. Griffin asserts many incorrect opinions as if they were fact. You are of the opinion that we can't have a good article on Griffin without giving him the benefit of the doubt in these things, but in most cases there is no doubt of which the benefit might reasonably be given. His AIDS denialism, chemtrail advocacy, 9/11 "Truth" advocacy and so on are not grounded in reality, they are conspiracy theories contradicted by objective evidence and with no credible supporting body of fact.

You bring up, for the umpteenth time, the fact that the data on laetrile we cite is old. How many times does this need to be explained to you before you finally drop the stick? The laetrile scam is fundamentally different from the recent research you claim should override it. The recent research shows some (cautious, early) evidence of beneficial effect as an adjuvant treatment in certain specific cancers. The laetrile fraud, as promoted by Griffin as a tool of the John Birch Society on behalf of one of its members prosecuted for involvement, goes thus: (1) There is a vitamin, B17, which is found in laetrile (or amygdalin). (2) Cancer is caused by deficiency of this vitamin. (3) Cancer, all kinds of cancer, can therefore be cured by supplementation with this vitamin. (4) There is a conspiracy within the scientific and medical establishment to suppress this. Not one of those four claims is true, and not one of them is rendered any less false by the recent research. The recent research is entirely irrelevant to the laetrile scam as promoted by Griffin, and your constant rehashing of this argument shows that you are not competent to argue the case. You need to drop this crusade, because you are objectively wrong. Not matter-of-opinion wrong, but objectively and absolutely wrong.

Laetrile: A Lesson in Cancer Quackery walks you through the history, the John Birch Society connection, the fraudulent claims, and the reasons why there are no recent tests. It describes, patiently and meticulously, why Griffin's claims are wrong, and it also tells you why the recent results will never change that.

WP:NPOV means that if we paint a portrait then it should be, as Cromwell had it, "warts and all". In the case of Griffin, there is little but warts, but that's not out problem to fix. You cannot have an article on this barely-notable crank and not include the fact that he is very obviously a crank who espouses many crank ideas. You cannot do this because of foundational policy. Guy (Help!) 07:03, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Why does it matter if laetrile, chemtrails, 9/11 truth is correct or incorrect? They all are notable topics so have articles on wikipedia. It's povish and original research if you are on a mission to prove things wrong, just worry about reliable sources. Popish Plot (talk) 14:01, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

It matters because this is an encyclopaedia, a project with a foundational commitment to accuracy. Anything that blurs the line, degrades the project. Atsme's attempts to pretend that Griffin's advocacy of quackery is defensible in retrospect, are not only a novel synthesis form primary sources but are also a violation of our policy on coverage of fringe ideas. And that latter policy, incidentally, explains why, in detail, it does matter whether these crazy conspiracy theories are right or not.

Atsme says we are "censoring" mention of irrelevant research that has absolutely nothing to do with Griffin's claims. Atsme keeps saying this, despite the fact that the irrelevance of the recent research has been pointed out dozens of times by now. We are not censoring it, any more than we are censoring coverage of casein geology in the article on the moon. The moon is not made of cheese, cancer is not caused by a deficiency of something that was claimed to be a vitamin largely for marketing purposes. New research finding evidence of calcium in moon rock would not validate the moon-cheese theory. New research finding value for amygdalin as an adjuvant therapy for certain types of tumour, does not validate the laetrile hoax. And this essay exists solely because Atsme appears to have fallen for the idea that the reason laetrile is denounced as a scam, is that there genuinely is a conspiracy - a fallacious debating tactic known as the "pharma shill gambit". Guy (Help!) 16:06, 9 April 2015 (UTC)