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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Kim Davis article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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This article was nominated for deletion on 2 September 2015. The result of the discussion was a SNOW keep.

Wrong info about Supreme Court.

1. I should never have posted online yesterday that Kim Davis didn't have a Misplaced Pages article. Sorry, World.

2. As I understand it, Davis is not defying the Supreme Court; she is defying a Federal District Judge's ruling. She applied to the Supreme Court for an emergency stay against the Judge's order, but her plea was rejected by the Justices. The Federal District Court had granted her a stay pending the Supreme Court decision, but that stay has now expired. She is now in contempt of court.

3. Your references are redundant for a one sentence article.

4. You have a reference and an external link for the same videotaped confrontation from this morning between a male couple who have tried again to get a marriage license, and Davis, only from different angles.

5. It isn't mentioned in your article, but, if I understand it, the suit Davis filed is directed at Governor Beshear, saying that she should be excused from complying with the law due to her religious belief. Your linked New York Times reference addresses this as well as these articles. http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/08/29/3696830/kim-davis-kentucky-marriage-scotus/ http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/08/06/3688648/kentucky-county-clerk-job-suit/

6. In this interesting and applicable article, Davis performed a marriage ceremony in February for a couple composed a woman and a trans-gendered man. She never asked him for his birth certificate, which would have showed his female birth. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/clerk-who-refuses-to-marry-lgbt-couples-performed-trans-mans-marriage_55e343d5e4b0c818f6183433?cps=gravity_5059_-2162437734797175724

If you want to delete this article as the woman's fame fades, it's OKAY with me. Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 23:39, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

1 and 2 are good clarifications. I'm still fleshing the article out, so it's very incomplete at this point.- MrX 23:43, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Remember the Biography of Living Persons guidelines.

As a general reminder, please remember that the Misplaced Pages Biography of Living Persons guidelines applies to Davis. Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 23:47, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Lock?

You may find that you'll need to lock down this article. There was already an incident of vandalism. Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 23:53, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

If the vandalism gets bad, the article can be protected. By the way, you don't need to open a new talk page section every time you want to comment. - MrX 23:59, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Different topics. Have a restful night. Wordreader (talk) 03:53, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Divorces and children

I'm opening this section to discuss the removal of content pertaining to the subject's multiple marriages which was removed because "... we don't normally list BLP subjects' divorces or who fathered which of their children".

In fact, we almost always include such information, especially if covered in reliable sources and especially if it's relevant. In this case, she has refused to issue marriage licenses claiming a higher authority, which strikes commentators as odd given the prohibition against divorce by the very same supreme being. I am open to removing the detailed content about her children, other than perhaps mentioning how many she has.- MrX 01:42, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Actually, I don't see how it's relevant to Obergefell, to discrimination, or to the contempt of court motion. It looks to me like it serves no other purpose than to insinuate hypocrisy in the subject's religious views. I think that's problematic. I don't dispute that sources are RS. Geogene (talk) 01:50, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

It's not relevant to those three things, but it is relevant to her taking a stand on religious grounds. It does insinuate hypocrisy, but that's an aspect that several sources have focused on. This very reliable source (which I think you removed for some reason), discusses it in quite a bit of detail. - MrX 02:05, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Are you saying that subject is a "Bad Christian", on account of her sexual history? Sorry about deleting that source. Geogene (talk) 02:20, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps we can have our cake and eat it too by changing "lives with her current husband" to "lives with her fourth husband". I don't think the line detailing the dates of her divorces is relevant to the core subject of the article. --Captain Infinity (talk) 02:23, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Also, using "previously" with "prior" is redundant and, I have a feeling, POV inclined. --Captain Infinity (talk) 02:26, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Doable, but the best option is to find a respectable commentator that says that about the subject, and quote it, so we aren't sneaking anything in in Misplaced Pages's voice ( WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV ) Even if there's no such source already, there should be by Thursday or so. Geogene (talk) 02:32, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

That's a possibility. Perhaps the Washington Post Editorial Board. - MrX 02:50, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

@Geogene: No, I'm not saying that she's a bad Christian. I'm saying that our sources are portraying her as flexible with regard to how she follows her faith.

@Captain Infinity: I don't object to removing the years of her divorces for now, and rewording as you suggest. If sources later expand on her previous marriages, we should consider putting some of that detail back in. - MrX 02:40, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not following that distinction, which appears to be one of semantics but not meaning. But I think that removing the years of her divorces, and possibly choosing not to list them individually in the Infobox, will take away the last of the undue emphasis on them, so it's no worse than a typical BLP. Geogene (talk) 02:43, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I think part of the problem with the tone is the way the section is structured. Her faith, which is the origin of the entire issue, is overshadowed by the information on the divorces. Putting that last line there by itself gives it an importance it may not deserve. I suggest the following, switching things around. "Davis describes herself as an Apostolic Christian and attends church services three times a week. She lives in Morehead, Kentucky with her fourth husband, Joe. Her previous marriages ended in divorce." That really says it all, the dates are of no relevance, her faith is out in front, and lets the reader make his own determination of hypocrisy. --Captain Infinity (talk) 02:47, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

No problem with that. Geogene (talk) 02:52, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm fine with that. - MrX 02:53, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

(←) Sorry, I spotted the tautology before reading this discussion. I'm good with the change as well; the dates of her divorces really are unimportant here. – Robin Hood  02:54, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Marriages and children are normally covered in Personal life sections of BLP. There is no need to make an exception for her here. Victor Victoria (talk) 12:41, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree that that is where they are normally covered. I think there are different views about how much detail is covered in this article. We need to observe WP:BLPPRIVACY when it concerns uninvolved people, especially children. I don't think we have crossed a line, but we're getting very close. - MrX 13:23, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Not sure how we are even approaching WP:BLPPRIVACY. No names or any other identifying information is given for uninvolved participants. Victor Victoria (talk) 13:35, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Just as a note, this is pretty much a rebuttal to what I've argued here recently. I won't oppose mention of an issue that Guardian has headlines on. Geogene (talk) 18:30, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

It's also worth noting here that her checkered marital history all happened *prior* to her religious conversion, a pretty important detail regarding the claim in the media that she is essentially a "bad Christian." 70.15.35.76 (talk) 18:53, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Same thought here; she had a religious experience in 2011 according to the article; in Christianity, especially that geographical region, that is a point of change.Howardd21 (talk) 12:52, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 2 September 2015

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Kim Davis (Kentucky politician) → Kim Davis (clerk) – An editor moved this article from Kim Davis (clerk) to Kim Davis (Kentucky politician) without discussion or consensus. I am opposed to this move and propose moving the title back to the original. Disambiguation should be simple and straightforward. Kentucky politician is overly specific and not in accord with WP:RECOGNIZABLE. Sources refer to her as a clerk, not a politician. I would move the article back myself, but another editor recreated the article under the original name. - MrX 12:36, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

*Oppose (the editor who moved). "Clerk" is nebulous. She is known for being an elected official from Kentucky who is taking a stance against the Supreme Court. She is making a political statement, and being an elected official makes her a politician. Victor Victoria (talk) 12:42, 2 September 2015 (UTC) see new !vote below

Victor Victoria I agree but there is no current content within the article using wordings "polit.." or "democ..." so I don't see how the present title is justified either. How about Kim Davis (county clerk)? Either that or are there notable references that can be added to the article to justify your claims of political involvement. GregKaye 13:08, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't like the proposed name Kim Davis (county clerk) because in my opinion, unless there is another Kentucky politician named Kim Davis, there is no need to signify the political office she holds. Additionally, she may run for other offices in the future so keeping it general is best. Victor Victoria (talk) 14:35, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

"Kentucky politician" is not general; "politician" is. Can you show that more sources say she is a politician than say she's a county clerk? - MrX 14:40, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Winning an election to be the county clerk makes her a politician. The references are in the article, and for convenience here is one from the article . Victor Victoria (talk) 14:46, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, she's a politician, mother, daughter, woman, Christian, human, and a lot of other things. As far as I can tell, our sources almost universally refer to her as a clerk. Even the local article you linked to refer to her as a clerk right in the headline: County clerk’s race more contested than usual - MrX 14:55, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• MrX: in the future if this happens, use WP:BRD and put in a technical move request. If there's no consensus here, a closer should properly move this back to the previous title. Personally, I think (Kentucky politician) is unnecessary when there aren't other notable politicians by this name. I was going to just move this to (politician) on my own before I saw the RM. (county clerk) may be more recognizable, however, and I don't like (clerk) alone because that's indeed a very broad term. I don't think it's wrong, though—again, no other notable Kim Davis who could be called a clerk. --BDD (talk) 14:50, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

  Thanks for the advice BDD. I didn't know I could do that. Certainly (county clerk) would be preferable over the current title. I'm not keen on (politician), although it is better than (Kentucky politician). - MrX 14:55, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Opposeper Victor Victoria. County clerks in Kentucky are elected politicians. Stevie is the man! 14:59, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support. County clerk may be a minor elected office, but so is sheriff and often judge and district attorney and we wouldn't disambiguate them as politicians. The previous title was much better. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:30, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support move per WP:COMMONNAME. All news sources refer to her as a clerk, not a politician. See list below:
  • Washington Post - "The defiant Kim Davis, the Ky. clerk who refuses to issue gay marriage licenses" (title) and "The job of Rowan County clerk ..." (in text).
  • CS Monitor - "County clerk Kim Davis..." (below title) and "Controversy has ensued as Kim Davis, Rowan County, Ky., clerk..." (in text)
  • International Business Times - "Who Is Kim Davis? Kentucky Clerk Denying Same-Sex Marriage Licenses Defies Supreme Court Orders" (title) and "Kim Davis, a small-town Kentucky courthouse clerk..." (in text).
  • CBS News - "Clerk in Ky. marriage fight has turbulent marital history" (title) and "Now as the Rowan County clerk,..." (in text)
  • NBC News - "Why Hasn't Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis, Defying Same-Sex Marriage Order, Been Fired?" (title) and "Removing defiant Kentucky clerk Kim Davis..." (in text)
  • NPR - "Despite High Court Ruling, Kentucky Clerk Denies Marriage Licenses" (title) and "Despite a Supreme Court ruling that compelled a Rowan County clerk in Kentucky to give out marriage licenses to same-sex couples, Kim Davis..." (in text)
  • Washington Times - "Supreme Court rules against Kim Davis, Kentucky clerk in gay marriage case" (title) and "The Supreme Court on Monday ruled against the Kentucky county clerk who has refused to issue same-sex marriage licenses, and the clerk will arrive at work Tuesday morning to face her moment of truth. Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis..." (in text)
  • BBC - "Kentucky clerk defies Supreme Court order on gay marriage" (title) and "...Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis..." (in text)
  • The Guardian - Kentucky clerk denying licenses to gay couples has married four times (title) and "A controversial US court clerk who has..." (in text)
  • NY Times - "Kentucky Clerk Defies Court on Marriage Licenses for Gay Couples" (title) and "Kim Davis, the clerk in Rowan County,..." (in text)

Seems clear that she is referred to as a clerk, not a politician. Would be fine with move to Kim Davis (county clerk) as well. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 16:10, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Move to Kim Davis (county clerk). Per comments by Necrothesp and EvergreenFir, she is not a general politician who has run in multiple elections or held various offices – she is a county clerk. That is her position, so let's identify her as such. Including "county" helps show that her position is a government post with a particular scope – i.e., she is not a clerk at a bank or other such private institution. —BarrelProof (talk) 16:46, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support Move per EvergreenFir. WP:COMMONNAME would lend the title to be clerk per their sources above. Nomader (talk) 16:56, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support She is technically a "politician" since she ran for an election, but first off there is no Kim Davis (politician) to dab from, so I don't like the current title, and since she's notable for her specific role as a clerk, I'll support the "county clerk" dab. "Clerk" is too ambiguous I think. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:01, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
  • I'll go along with the (county clerk) dabs. Victor Victoria (talk) 17:17, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
• Move to Kim Davis (county clerk). Clear and unambiguous, present title looks like 'window dressing' and obfuscates rather than clarifies.Pincrete (talk) 18:16, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
• Move to Kim Davis (county clerk). Since she has most often been referred to as a "county clerk" in news reports, I think that's the most recognizable title. While a county clerk may be an elected official in the US, I don't think it's something that most people would identify as a politician, especially those outside the US. She is, in essence, a government functionary. Listing her as a politician aggrandizes her position in my mind. Also, to address one of the concerns mentioned above, if she develops other political titles in the future, the article can be moved at that time. Misplaced Pages is not a crystal ball and we should not name an article speculatively. – Robin Hood  18:20, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment. Doing some more research on this, "Kentucky politician" is clearly a non-preferred title according to WP:NCDAB. – Robin Hood  18:42, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - No objection to moving to Kim Davis (county clerk) which seems to be the emerging consensus. - MrX 18:21, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Which Apostolic church?

According to The New York Times, Kim Davis is a member of the Solid Rock Apostolic Church. Looking specifically for that term, I found Morehead Solid Rock Apostolic Church, which identifies as Pentecostal. I have accordingly changed the links to reflect that church and not the Apostolic Christian Church previously linked to. I also added the NYT as a citation. There is obviously a lot of confusion caused by the close naming, so if further information is found that contradicts what I understand from NYT, by all means, change it to whatever's appropriate. – Robin Hood  19:46, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Pre-controversy sources

To help counter the WP:ONEEVENT argument that can be used at AfD, this article should be reworked a bit to include more on her prior to this current brouhaha. I've found this source reporting on her election win. If we can find and integrate any others, that would improve this article and confirm notability. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:58, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Trying to counter the argument isn't the right approach; rather, the correct approach is to consider whether the article is really appropriate at all. She isn't a notable person otherwise; all of her notability centers around this. Local politicans are seldom notable. Titanium Dragon (talk) 22:55, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Muboshgu, that's helpful. @Titanium Dragon: The article is appropriate per WP:BASIC, which is why I created it. WP:BLP1E doesn't apply to this subject. - MrX 23:00, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Of course WP:BLP1E applies. The notability is the event, not the person, and it is really part of the greater reaction to the same-sex marriage decision. It isn't that the event isn't notable, it is that Davis isn't notable as a person; her name should be a redirect to an article which contains like, a paragraph or two about the case. Titanium Dragon (talk) 23:21, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

This talk page is for article improvement. To argue deletion, go to the AfD, where I argued this isn't BLP1E. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:24, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

In the interim, Reference #1 for this page should be changed to the Morehead News article listed above. The current link points to a page behind a library login. Meowbie (talk) 21:08, 4 September 2015 (UTC)Meowbie

NPOV violation

We cannot say in Misplaced Pages's voice, "a group that specializes in anti-gay legislation". This is a clear violation of NPOV, whether or not it is true. It is the biased opinion of one WP:RS. Therefore we WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV and take it out of Misplaced Pages's voice, and say that Slate.COM has described the group as such, in quotes. That is the best that can be done if you really need that assertion to stay in the article. Elizium23 (talk) 20:41, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

It is factually accurate to say the group specialises in anti-gay litigation. In Lawrence v. Texas they submitted a brief seriously arguing homosexuality should be a criminal offence. From its page "Liberty Counsel supports barring people from the military on the basis of 'homosexual activity' Liberty Counsel opposes efforts to prohibit employment discrimination against gay workers. The organization further opposes 'the addition of "sexual orientation", "gender identity" or similar provisions' to hate crimes legislation. In 2005 the Southern Poverty Law Center listed the Liberty Counsel as one of twelve groups comprising an "anti-gay crusade" and in April 2014 added the Liberty Counsel to its list of active anti-gay hate groups. Liberty Counsel also devotes its time to fighting against same-sex marriage, civil unions, and adoption by gay people." All cited. I think it is fair to say they specialise in anti-gay litigation. (Meanwhile, hilariously, in 2000 they "threatened legal action against a public library for awarding a 'Hogwarts' Certificate of Accomplishment' to young students who read J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire in its entirety. Staver said that 'witchcraft is a religion, and the certificate of witchcraft endorsed a particular religion in violation of the First Amendment establishment clause'") AusLondonder (talk) 20:46, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how factually accurate it is, it still violates neutrality to say it in Misplaced Pages's voice. It is equally factually accurate to say that they "provide free legal assistance in defense of Christian religious liberty, the sanctity of human life, and the traditional family." That is how they self-describe, so would you use that description uncritically as well? Elizium23 (talk) 20:52, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

The section now says "a group described by Mark Joseph Stern of Slate as "specializing in anti-gay litigation"" AusLondonder (talk) 20:54, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

@Elizium23: I didn't (yet) revert your edit adding attribution, but I believe that it's a fairly widely held view that they do actually focus on anti-gay legislation. The SPLC goes as far as to list them as a hate group. - MrX 20:59, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Okay, tough guys, how much description do you want to WP:COATRACK into one sentence on her legal team? Elizium23 (talk) 21:02, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

@Elizium23:, be WP:CIVIL. It's not a coatrack to simply mention that her lawfirm is anti-gay. Saying it's on the SPLC hate group list would be too far. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:25, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Agreed with the others above. There's no difference between saying "anti-gay legislation" than there is in saying "anti-abortion legislation". Heck, we use a similar phrase on a TOC-like page here. – Robin Hood  21:38, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I have therefore tagged the article as {{POV}}, as consensus here cannot override Misplaced Pages WP:5P pillar policies. Elizium23 (talk) 21:51, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Since it is only two words that you believe are non-neutral, I have replaced the tag with an inline tag. While a consensus here cannot override a policy, it has yet to be established (ironically, though consensus) that this material is actually at odds with WP:NPOV. - MrX 22:08, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I have removed the part about it specializing in "anti-gay litigation", and have simply put "Davis is represented by attorneys from the law firm Liberty Counsel." I really don't see the need to put what the firm specializes in. It merely serves to combine the two together to imply that Davis is a bigot and is being represented by bigots, it's bordering on synthesis. SuperCarnivore591 (talk) 22:28, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

There is no consensus to do that and your rationale is wrong. AusLondonder (talk) 22:38, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

(←) Sorry if I acted prematurely. At the time, I thought it was unanimous except for the OP and snowballed it. I realize now that I missed an additional opinion due to the mixed use of reply indentation. I'm actually with SuperCarnivore on this one. It's probably easiest to simply state the law firm's name and let people link through if they wish and make their own judgements. – Robin Hood  22:42, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Personal life

Jptelthorst place an POV tag in this section, so a discussion should ensure. I also noticed an editor removed some material (without an edit summary). I object to the removal, especially the last paragraph which is notable commentary about the subject. - MrX 01:54, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

What's POV in that section? It's all demonstrably true. I also agree with restoring the content you restored. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Muboshgu (talk • contribs) 02:00, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I have just removed this: "U.S. News & World Report says that Davis' "turbulent marital history" has raised "questions of hypocrisy and selective application of the Bible to her life."" because the sentence is WP:UNDUE for her opponents, and not really relevant to her personal life; her marriages to multiple men are already described. SuperCarnivore591 (talk) 02:02, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree with this change, thanks. jptelthorst 04:14, 6 September 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jptelthorst (talk • contribs)

Perhaps the wording is a little strong, but I do think there is WP:DUE commentary that is needed to encapsulate the stark contrast between her rigid stance on same-sex marriage and her lax stance on multiple partners.

By the way, no objection to removing the "hillbilly redneck" bit which adds little to the article. - MrX 02:06, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

You can re-add it back if you want, although I honestly don't feel it relevant because it's been years since her marriages and this event. SuperCarnivore591 (talk) 02:16, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree with SuperCarnivore here. Seems UNDUE. Info on her religious conversion would be useful, but quotes about apparent hypocrisy are not needed. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 02:22, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

OK, I won't re-add that wording. I will read some sources tomorrow and see if there is something related worth adding. - MrX 02:26, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I believe the info regarding her multiple marriages and hypocrisy is absolutely notable and relevant. How can it possibly be undue? AusLondonder (talk) 02:27, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

• Too much content is too much content. This is a BLP. We're not the news. Let the rest of the internet satisfy your curiosity for personal information and trivia. That a bunch of people, some more relevant and authoritative than others, say she's a hypocrite (and they may well be right) doesn't mean we should include her information because they feel the need and the freedom to discuss her private affairs. Drmies (talk) 02:31, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

The U.S. News piece attributes that to "bloggers and social media"; i.e., common gossip. When that becomes the bar for inclusion we might as well hang it up and go home. If a credentialed journalist writes a column about it, that's a different matter. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:33, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I think what is going on here, unfortunately, is an attempt to change this BLP to glowingly paint her as a courages Mandela-style freedom fighter, "Imprisoned for being a Christian" and exclude any sentence possibly perceived as critical of her. How could her gross hypocrisy regarding the "sanctity of Biblical marriage" not be relevant here? AusLondonder (talk) 02:34, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I think you need to read WP:AGF, as well as the comments above. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:36, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I think you need to read WP:PUBLICFIGURE AusLondonder (talk) 02:40, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

It is also blatantly wrong to suggest allegations of hypocrisy have only been made on "social media". The Guardian has noted that angle AusLondonder (talk) 02:42, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I think there is some includable content between the two positions articulated in this thread. We don't have to call the subject a hypocrite, but there is a notable aspect of, let's call it, "cognitive dissonance" at play here, according to several sources. - MrX 02:43, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Ok, but we need more than bloggers, social media, and the Guardian, which is borderline RS at best. WP:PUBLICFIGURE: " If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out." ―Mandruss ☎ 02:48, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

How do you feel about Dan Savage as a source? - MrX 02:53, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Only if he's used as a source for his personal commentary, not for any facts. SuperCarnivore591 (talk) 02:54, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

What "facts"? Any mention of hypocrisy is someone's opinion, and we are allowed to include opinion. I'm ok with inclusion with the HuffPost cite. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:00, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Mandruss, can you explain why, in contrast to general consensus, you believe the Guardian is only a "borderline" WP:RS? AusLondonder (talk) 03:04, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Probably not to your satisfaction, and I know of no such consensus. My experience is that they flirt with tabloidish content. Others will differ, including you. As I said, I'm ok with inclusion with both HuffPost and the Guardian cited, and I prefer your version over the alternatives being too aggressively added while this is under discussion. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:07, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I have removed the US News and World Report article from the personal life section with the issue covered in the same-sex marriage section. AusLondonder (talk) 03:11, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I didn't realize this discussion in progress, since I was examining the history. I collected the same content (about hypocrisy) in the same place, but that was removed, even though it was an excellent source (USN&WR).

This content is quite important, because this is what makes her actions so controversial. They would be controversial anyway, no matter who did it, but the fact that she is so judgmental, while having such a "turbulent marital history", makes her a huge target for accusations of hypocrisy, and RS make that accusation. We can't ignore that. -- BullRangifer (talk) 03:17, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Generally when there is edit warring going on, it's a good idea to check the talk page rather than add to the edit warring. US News was dropped because they only attribute the comments to bloggers and social media, rather than addressing the issue in their own voice. Thus they add no weight. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:21, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

The attribution to people does not make a conclusion less noteworthy, and certainly not less accurate. See my comments below.- MrX 03:25, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Going back to the US News &World Report Source, which is cited by other sources:

"The Kentucky county clerk facing potentially stiff penalties for refusing to issue same-sex marriage licenses has been married four times, raising questions of hypocrisy and selective application of the Bible to her life."
— U.S. News & World Report

This is reporter Steven Nelson's analysis based on social media and requests for public records. From this, it would accurate to say that "some people have raised questions of hypocrisy and selective application of the Bible to her life." Can someone help me understand why this, also supported by Huffington Post, The Guardian and The Federalist, is WP:UNDUE?- MrX 03:22, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

You're aware that the content is currently in the article? This is as close to a consensus as we have been in this thread. If you want to add US News, go ahead, no complaint here. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:24, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Since the content is nearly identical, I suggest we just add the USN&WR ref to what's there, with no change of wording. -- BullRangifer (talk) 03:29, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

 Done ―Mandruss ☎ 03:32, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

That sounds good to me. We should probably also add the other sources so someone doesn't driveby tag the article as UNDUE/POV.- MrX 03:31, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Three is enough per WP:CITEKILL. If someone driveby tags it because three aren't enough, we'll untag it because they are. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:34, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

It's at four right now, and since each one discusses different aspects, let's just leave them as a service to readers and be done with this thread. Okay? -- BullRangifer (talk) 03:37, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

―Mandruss ☎ 03:41, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Fine with me.- MrX 03:43, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Actually I removed one of the two US News, Nelson, thinking it was redundant, making it three again. If it's not redundant, feel free to add Nelson back. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:46, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

 Done -- BullRangifer (talk) 03:51, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm sure I'll be a minority of one looking at the user profiles in this Talk page, however the SSM Ruling section information provides skewed info. It conflates Mrs Davis' 4 marriages with her Christianity. It is only in the Personal Life section that the 2011 awakening is mentioned, some 2 years after her final (re)marriage. Without evidence to the contrary the accusation that she is a hypocrite would appear to be defamatory. Rather than suggest an edit which like as not would be reverted I'm simply pointing out the inconsistency at this stage. 人族 (talk) 14:51, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

"under God’s authority"

User:MrX, the phrase and motivation, "under God’s authority", is pretty important to this whole affair, and thus deserves mention in the lead, not removal. Granted, it could be done more smoothly than a parenthetical mention, but it needs to be restored in some manner. It is a central feature of this whole thing. It, together with the perception that she's a hypocrite, have raised this whole affair to a level it would never have reached without either one of them, alone or together. Both ideas should be mentioned in the lead. -- BullRangifer (talk) 03:57, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Agree that the God thing is central and therefore lead-worthy. Not sure what "parenthetical" means here. Undecided on hypocrisy, but it's not central. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:03, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I can live with it put back in the lead, but can we please not clutter the first sentence? It makes reading difficult.- MrX 04:09, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

How that? ―Mandruss ☎ 04:15, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Better, except now it looks like she filed the emergency SCOTUS application under God's authority. What actually happened is that she denied a marriage license to a SSM couple under God's authority after the SCOTUS application was denied. You may want to view the video for context. - MrX 04:22, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Better yet? ―Mandruss ☎ 04:39, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Excellent. -- BullRangifer (talk) 05:07, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that's much better. Thanks. - MrX 11:30, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Election History?

Is the total number of registered voters relevant? This says there were 13,926 registered voters whilst there were only 7,320 votes recorded. Doesn't change the outcome of course. Planning on doing a little research on the subject given the news but this was one thing I stumbled over. I would have edited the page myself but since it has that padlock ... 人族 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:31, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Please add Kim Davis to your watchlist

Would a few editors please add Kim Davis to your watchlists? There is a "new" editor and a helper IP changing

Kim Davis (county clerk), who defied a U.S. Federal Court ruling requiring that she issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples

to

Kim Davis (county clerk), jailed for refusing to issue homosexual marriage licenses

Which of course is blatantly false. 1000 thanks. - MrX 13:07, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

 Done Others note that's a dab page, not this article. Confused me at first, since I didn't see said edits in this page history. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:35, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for the head's up. Stevie is the man! 13:46, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I actually requested protection on the disambiguation page but think I goofed. The rationale for the phrasing is based off international headlines as supplied on that page's Talk section. Initial responses were reversions no discussion then a simple rejection of said articles. I accept US media may have a different view of the issue however international fame should trump local fame correct? I'll endeavor to think of more precise phrasing than the current court defiance reference. 人族 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:09, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

By law in the U.S. they are not called "homosexual marriages" -- they're just called 'marriages'. No matter the international source, we won't accept POV. Stevie is the man! 14:13, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

It's not point of view to call them homosexual marriages, it's what they are. Misplaced Pages even has a page on this non-existent concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/Same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_States 人族 (talk) 14:53, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

It's not point of view to call them same-sex marriages, either, it's what they are. What is your objection to using the same term that is used in that article? Why is the word homosexual so important to you? ―Mandruss ☎ 15:07, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

人族, your POV that this is a "non-existent concept" when objective reality shows otherwise, means this discussion is essentially over, and you are here to disrupt rather than constructively contribute. Stevie is the man! 15:29, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Stevie, please assume good faith. SuperCarnivore591 (talk) 15:33, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I always do. But this user has engaged in disruptive editing and is essentially calling the sky purple, so the assumption has been superseded. Stevie is the man! 15:37, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

The "non-existent" was a sarcastic distortion of a preceding comment. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:43, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Good faith doesn't apply to those of differing points of view? So all non-Progressives should be treated as Facists? Snort! (Yes I checked the profile). Getting back to the issues at hand, on the disambiguation Talk page Robin Hood claimed that homosexual is offensive. I double checked the phrase in a couple of dictionaries and none list it so. Homosexual marriage and same-sex marriage are synonyms, however you cannot talk about a same-sex person but instead must say a homosexual person. The word homosexual isn't particularly important to me, it's merely the only simple term available to describe such individuals. It would be no different to describing individuals as American or Chinese. You could extend that individual term to the marriage e.g. American or Chinese wedding\marriage. Hope this clarifies things. 人族 (talk) 04:55, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not necessarily to the place to prosecute points of view. Same-sex marriage, gay marriage or marriage equality are generally the accepted terms. "Homosexual marriage" is very rarely used. You say "homosexual" is the only term available and "must be" used but this Google Ngram shows the books generally use the term "gay" rather than "homosexual". AusLondonder (talk) 05:02, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Those of us who aren't on the homo/heterosexual binary prefer same-sex marriage, as bisexuals can marry for example. Jerod Lycett (talk) 06:56, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

I avoid gay given its modern perjorative meaning. Yes I'm aware that historically it also meant happy. The sheer breadth of meaning makes the word dangerous to use not unlike the terms f-g\f----t - cigarettes\bundle of sticks, but which can have very different (and less polite) meanings in different contexts\countries. As far as I'm aware marriage equality is used solely as a campaign slogan - it is not used outside activist circles or news articles about those in said circles. I will note that your comment about prosecuting a point of view is very interesting phrasing - I tend to defend the status quo :-) 人族 (talk) 18:47, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

The status quo is to call it marriage equality. Jerod Lycett (talk) 08:19, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Definitely not! Polyamorists use that term and we're not talking about them here. It is a term exclusively used within specific politically active circles. Misplaced Pages is not here to be the mouthpiece of selected elements within society - NPOV and all that. 人族 (talk) 11:21, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

First off, you appear to be a very close to a single purpose account. Second, do your research, Google News showed up hundreds of thousands of hits, including to Times and Huffington Post articles using marriage equality. Third, marriage equality redirects to same-sex marriage here. Therefore the correct NPOV term would be same-sex marriage, or if you don't want to use the same term over and over, marriage equality. Jerod Lycett (talk) 11:57, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Please explain how this is about improvement to this article. We are not going to say that Davis refused to issue marriage licenses to marriage equality couples, so what are you two arguing about? If it doesn't relate to article improvement, see WP:NOTFORUM and knock it off. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:03, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

They seem to want it to say homosexual marriage. I'm saying it should say same-sex marriage. I was refuting the idea that marriage equality can't be used in the article.

I do have a question on this though, I've yet to be able to find the court order. Are we sure it's only about same-sex marriage licenses and not all marriage licenses? If so, it would make the whole discussion of the wording moot.

Jerod Lycett (talk) 12:16, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

As far as I can see, there is one user here advocating the word homosexual. That means zero chance of consensus, which means you just ignore and move on. Why argue pointlessly, unless you just like to argue. As for your question, see #Known for. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:22, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

The debate started over trying to find a succinct statement defining the Kim Davis entry on the disambiguation page. Some folk objected to my use of the term homosexual marriage - they consider it inaccurate, offensive, whatever else. I defended the use of the phrase, especially since the terms they suggested are ones I consider unacceptable. The current definition is technically inaccurate and repetitive however for now it's the closet thing to an acceptable statement we have. The debate here is way off topic and not relevant to this article. I'm happy to move on. 人族 (talk) 14:30, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Reactions

I've added a sentence about notable comparisons of Davis' activism with that of George Wallace 52 years ago. I would suggest that we do not include any commentary from politicians, especially presidential candidates. Although I think it would make for some amusing reading, it would definitely turn this article into a COATRACK. Does anyone think we should take a different tack? - MrX 14:10, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I generally oppose inclusion of anything a politician says, in any article except one about politics. It's self-serving grandstanding by definition of the word "politician" and therefore not noteworthy. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:16, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that's exactly my thinking. Let them speak to the wind. - MrX 14:20, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I've moved it into the "reaction" section, as that's where it belongs. SuperCarnivore591 (talk) 15:47, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

This a bio, not a political soapbox. A reaction section does not make sense int he context of a bio. Perhaps as a sub section of 'Contempt hearing'. We should not be giving any airplay to any politicians in this article. I have no objection to creating a new article if warranted. - MrX 15:49, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, again. Also SuperCarnivore591 you are confusing two issues, the one about Wallace and the politicians' comments. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:52, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I think any political reactions should go into Miller v. Davis and not this article. And it should be done with due weight given to the various responses, for and against what's happening. Stevie is the man! 15:59, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Please be careful not to start adding content to Miller v. Davis which belongs here. Keep the two very sharply separated. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:06, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

This may be a bio, but our articles allow anything about the subject (Kim Davis) which is from RS. Thus it isn't like a biography anywhere else. We are not allowed to disallow content because we want to keep it strictly biographical, in the sense of a bio elsewhere. Controversies, commentaries, reactions, etc., are all fair game. Notable reactions are especially relevant, and politicians, like it or not, are notable. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:06, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

We are allowed to exclude anything in RS that we feel is not noteworthy. You can claim it's noteworthy, but you can't claim that RS coverage alone justifies inclusion; it does not. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:10, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Political commentaries tend to be about the case in which Davis is involved. At any rate, you must give due weight to the various responses, or it's a no-go. This article will not become a campaign brochure for any particular presidential aspirant. Stevie is the man! 16:15, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I think Huckabee was left in by mistake. No one is suggesting to include only him, or only anyone else. The issue is whether or not politicians' comments are noteworthy. See above. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:17, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Ultimately, this comes down to editorial discretion. I'm on record as strongly opposed to giving politicians a soapbox in this article. If consensus requires that we do, we are going to be spending considerable time debating what commentary merits inclusion versus what doesn't. If I'm lucky, I'll have an internet outage at that time. - MrX 16:19, 4 September 2015 (UTC);

Oh, I don't think there would be much debating. If you let any of it in, you have to let in pretty much whatever anyone wants to put in, provided no one gets significantly more space than anyone else the viewpoints are roughly balanced (assume RS coverage is roughly balanced). Otherwise I still agree with you 100%. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:22, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I have a feeling that this section, wherever it goes, is going to become bloated very fast. All kinds of notable figures are weighing in. Couldn't we just boil it down to a few sentences by saying some Republican political candidates are supportive of her actions for such-and-such reason (with cites), while Democrats and other Republicans (including candidates) are saying this is a "rule of law" matter (with cites)? Stevie is the man! 16:27, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Still a soapbox, larger scale. Still meaningless. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:30, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it's a soapbox, as it's normal to include reactions in the cases of politically-charged events such as this. SuperCarnivore591 (talk) 16:38, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't know about "normal". Neither of us has seen enough different articles to claim we know how a majority of the Misplaced Pages community feels about it, and your experience has been different from mine. As MrX said, this specific situation is not covered by policy and it's a matter of editorial discretion, which will vary from article to article and from one mix of editors to another. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:43, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

In a user talk page discussion with @Stevietheman:, I was able to post three reliable sources mentioning the Republican candidates that are more or less supportive of Davis in less than five minutes. Any Google news search should produce enough to easily overcome any concerns about Weight. For some reason that discussion went nowhere and I've been assured that any addition of politician comments will be "checked, as always". I see that as a challenge. How hard will it really be to get consensus on this? Geogene (talk) 20:38, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

@Geogene: you seem very intent on writing WP:UNDUE content. I guess I didn't get it wrong, after all. You seem to pin everything on WP:RS, but it doesn't work that way. Stevie is the man! 20:40, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Quit pinging, I'm watching the page. As I said, you just don't seem to understand Weight. Do your own news search and count the sources that are reporting on this. Geogene (talk) 20:42, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

All you want to add is content from one side of the debate. That's WP:UNDUE. Also, search counting isn't the only standard we go by. Voices from both sides are being reported on widely. Stevie is the man! 20:44, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I resent your casting aspersions, and reiterate my request for opinions from other editors on whether this qualifies per WP:WEIGHT. Otherwise, I'd still be arguing on your talk page. Geogene (talk) 20:56, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I am not casting aspersions. You are saying clearly you only want to add content from one side of the issue. You have not said anything to contradict that reading of what you want to do here. You wish to present the reactions in a lop-sided manner. Why? Stevie is the man! 21:00, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Aren't there discretionary sanctions in effect here? Geogene (talk) 21:01, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm not the one pushing to violate Misplaced Pages policy. Disagreement with such is not anywhere close to being handled by discretionary sanctions. Goodness. Stevie is the man! 21:06, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't think there is any dispute about the number of available sources. I believe the issue at hand is relevance. If the article were about an event, such as a shooting, then a political reaction section would make sense. Political commentary is way off topic for a biography, in my opinion. - MrX 20:56, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. I think it'd be unusual not to mention that certain politicians are lining up to support (or at least be symapathetic towards) Davis, but you could argue--and I might agree--that Misplaced Pages in general pays too much attention to these kinds of soundbites. Geogene (talk) 21:00, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

To both of you, I said this before, but Miller v. Davis and decisions emanating from it are what's being reacted to, essentially. Also, what is the issue with having content with certain politicians are lining up to stay she is wrong and/or she needs to follow the law? Why should that be left out? I am not grokking that. Stevie is the man! 21:03, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Who's arguing that? I'm not, and you should quit claiming that I am. Geogene (talk) 21:10, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

OK, so you intend to add content about the widely discussed politicians against Davis' position then? If so, I'll eat all my previous responses and apologize profusely. Seriously, though, I think I'm being toyed with here, because all I've seen you state is the intention to add only content from one side of the debate. Stevie is the man! 21:13, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

You owe me an apology for casting aspersions regardless of what you think my intentions might be. Geogene (talk) 21:19, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I'd like to see what content you actually push before considering that. As I said, you have presented to me a lop-sided approach. I should get some salve for being toyed with on this matter. Stevie is the man! 21:27, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Nobody here is (or ever has been) under any obligation to "push" any kind of content. Period. Geogene (talk) 21:30, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

OK, I'm done. {sigh} Stevie is the man! 21:33, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

@Geogene: True. They are mostly empty soundbites. Of course, Huckabee's rather hysterical "criminalization of Christianity" comments that seem to inversely correlate with his 4% poling numbers, probably deserve its own article. - MrX 21:13, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Only to the extent that Huckabee is still notable. That 4% remark is the best argument against inclusion so far. Geogene (talk) 21:19, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Jeb and Hillary, with higher numbers (esp. Hillary) put out a statement that Davis needed to follow the law. Stevie is the man! 21:23, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Nobody is edit warring to keep that out of the article, are they? Geogene (talk) 21:25, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I hope not. But again, if all you've told me is that you want to add content from one side, what am I supposed to believe? Stevie is the man! 21:29, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

If you want to put that in the article, then put in the damn article. I have neither said nor implied that it should not be put in the article. I don't care either way. Quit complaining about things I haven't done. Geogene (talk) 21:33, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Fine. But if this content is going to be added by anyone, there had better be an effort to keep it usefully balanced based on the notability of those making the comments about this case. Adding unbalanced material in the hopes of others coming by to add the balance is really not how it's done here. Stevie is the man! 21:37, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

After being insulted by you for over an hour for something I never said and putting up with your arguments that have no basis in policy, including your bizarre concept of "balance" that you seem to be making up on your own, I lack the energy to improve the article. If I did, some troll/vandal (or some "respected user", logged out) would just revert it for lulz. But that's exactly how Misplaced Pages works, isn't it? Geogene (talk) 22:15, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I've been in a sleep period. This has descended into counterproductive bickering between two editors and I'd suggest that you just stop talking to each other. Nothing is being accomplished. Since Stevie said, "Why should that be left out? I am not grokking that," I'll try again to explain my position. As I said previously, politicians' comments on things like this are always self-serving grandstanding. It's not necessarily what they believe, but rather what they believe will help get them re-elected or further their party's agenda. I don't see what value that information has to our readers. Again, we don't include content solely because RS reports on it, even if they report widely on it; that is a misinterpretation and misapplication of WP:DUE. As MrX has said, we apply a relevance filter to RS coverage. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:31, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Stevietheman, you wrote: "Adding unbalanced material in the hopes of others coming by to add the balance is really not how it's done here." No, that's actually how we often develop content. No editor is required to present all sides of an issue, or wait until all sides have spoken before adding content, and then only adding all or none.

Misplaced Pages is based on the idea that "no one knows everything, but everyone knows something." We each bring our little "something". Alone it will be unbalanced. Fine. Others bring their "something" and balance things up. If the mainstream POV found in RS is more to one side, then that's the angle the article will take. Fine. We are not required to seek a false balance just to even things up.

We just search sources and bring whatever we find. As more editors bring more content, we get a fuller picture. That picture may (figuratively) "look like" the Salvador Dali painting of a melting watch (The Persistence of Memory) so off-balance that it drips off a table, but that's the picture, and we do not seek to make that watch appear to be in the middle of the table. We must accurate portray it in its one-sided position. The same applies to other subjects, whether they be alternative medicine scams or politics. Building of content does not require balance at every stage. -- BullRangifer (talk) 07:38, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

No the way we tend to work is some idiot puts seriously WP:UNDUE material in, then someone else goes in and removes it. Then all the people with a WP:BIAS come out and cry WP:NPOV and then and edit war breaks out, it goes before ArbCom, and we get a big-ass notice on the talk page that anyone editing the page could be Arbitrarily (that's what Arb in ArbCom seems to stand for) punished, scaring off any new editors that have anything relevant to add. Jerod Lycett (talk) 08:25, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

In over two years and 16,000 edits, I've yet to be scared off by the possibility of discretionary sanctions or hit with one, so of course I'm clueless as to what you're talking about. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:34, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

None of the statements above from my fellow competent editors proclaiming this article must not include any reactions makes any sense. Yes this article is a biography (a very well-written one) and information is clearly missing from this biography. This portion of her life is not taking place in a vacuum. The reactions of notable observers has made shock waves across multiple reliable sources. It is a matter of public record, everywhere except this Misplaced Pages article, that four notable candidates and others have spoken out on her situation. While their motives are out of scope, their reactions themselves are factual, encyclopedic, and need to be here. An entire section is too much, but a sentence or two in the Contempt hearing section would be appropriate. Prhartcom (talk) 13:59, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure which fellow competent editors you're referring to, or which reactions. I stand by my opposition to politicians' statements. I have no issue with reactions from others who have some credentials. I'm not interested in something some unknown person wrote on their personal blog, even if some RS source mentioned it because it was so outrageous. This is within editorial discretion, and that's mine. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:44, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

@Prhartcom, there are several reactions already in the article from ACLU, ADL, Washington Post, New York Times and Kentucky Attorney General. Can you point to one or more reactions that you think we should include, that increases the encyclopedic understanding of this subject? - MrX 14:57, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely, sorry Mr; you're absolutely right. I was referring to the reactions of notable politicians. Mandruss, you are one of many fellow competent editors I have worked together before; I only wished to honor your contributions. Can I believe my eyes, did you just say you are the final authority on editorial discretion on this matter? I'm sorry, but no, please don't make this a clear case of WP:OWN. Now, you are right if you believe we should leave out politicians because their motives are purely political. They clearly are, and I have no wish to feed their political ends. However, you can't censor the article. These politicians have made these statements and they are quite notable; their comments have helped escalate this article in the U.S. consciousness. This notability deserves a quick mention and then we move on; that's all I'm proposing. Prhartcom (talk) 16:04, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I know I'm rather late to this party, having other duties in life, but I noticed Prhartcom's comment and agree. A prior censorship refusal to include notable (sorry, but even using that word here is against policy, since only article "creation" is governed by notability!) political commentary has no basis in policy. That content is directly related to this subject and found in myriad RS. We are allowed some editorial discretion, but it doesn't extend to deliberate and total omission. Such a refusal is actually editorial censorship, and thus a clear violation of NPOV. That it was even declared boggles the mind.

How such content is included is another matter, but it needs to be included. I see that an RfC has been started below, so I'll take a look. This type of subject matter must not be disallowed by an editor's ownership declaration. It must be considered, formulated properly, and then added. -- BullRangifer (talk) 18:14, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

You're going to have to find consensus for adding political reactions. That will be hard to do since you haven't yet proposed anything specific. - MrX 16:09, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Do we really want every Tom, Dick and Mary coming to this article to add a political reaction? At least while this story is hot, that's exactly what will happen. I say we either summarize the type of reactions with healthy citations, or don't add them at all. Otherwise, we'll get to have fun with "political reactions" becoming half of the article virtually overnight. Stevie is the man! 16:19, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

No, we don't want that. I am proposing we state the reactions of three U.S. presidential candidates who share the same religious views as Davis: Ted Cruz, Rick Santorum, Mike Huckabee. Their statements have been widely covered in reliable sources and are clearly missing here; one reason I came to the article is to read their statements and was quite surprised to find that editors are censoring them. If you agree, I will propose the specific statements. Prhartcom (talk) 16:28, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Also widely reported are reactions from Jeb Bush and Hillary Clinton taking the view (essentially) that Davis should do her job. Just adding reactions from supporters when we know there are reactions from non-supporters is not something I will sign onto. Stevie is the man! 16:31, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Good point. Let's ensure we stay neutral, while not straying into undue weight. I suggest a couple of sentences like, "Politicians a, b, and c released statements of support for Davis; Mike Huckabee said "x". Other politicians such as x and y maintained Davis should follow the law; Jeb Bush said "z." Prhartcom (talk) 16:52, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Generally that's what I was thinking of, although I'm unsure Huckabee is the best representative because he's very low in the polls and his response seemed to be more on the right fringe of conservative thought than what has been heard by other Republican candidates. I'm trying to be objective here. :) Stevie is the man! 17:51, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

That's fine; obviously I was trying to leave blank the actual politician names and what they said. Although for that side it probably should be either Huckabee, Santorum, or Cruz, and they are all polling low. I think we may want the extreme views; they are good high-water marks. Prhartcom (talk) 19:00, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

(so as I don't break flow above) I concur with Jerod Lycett's reply to BullRangifer above. What you describe is the normal editing process. This article isn't normal, and that's painfully obvious, I hope. Anything that's added needs to be balanced from the start. Stevie is the man! 16:23, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• I have started an RfC below so that we can determine if there is consensus for including political commentary or reactions in this article. - MrX 16:57, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I think Nosfartu just made a reasonably balanced attempt at political reaction coverage, although, like I was mentioning before, it's pretty large and I'm afraid will attract a lot of IP editors to keep expanding and expanding. Perhaps we should have a spot on this talk page where we figure out what this content says, and figure out a way to keep it brief and non-attractive to additions. Stevie is the man! 16:57, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for not seeing the dicussion here first. Perhaps the RFC can establish some kind of criteria for inclusion

• none at all
• strict
• loose, with larger reaction split off in to a different article

and then we can use that material as a starting point for pruning or adding out--Nosfartu (talk) 16:58, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Even though I reverted the political reactions section, I do appreciate the quality of your edits and your effort to balance the material. - MrX 17:16, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Term of Office?

If anyone can find when her term ends, that probably should be added to the article.

If she continues to refuse the court's order, and continues to refuse to resign, when her term expires she will no longer have the power to issue licenses (assuming she isn't re-elected). At that point, the issue will be moot, and the court can no longer hold her in contempt. So the date her term expires seems rather relevant to this article.

Unfortunately, Google searches regarding the county and its elected officials are so flooded with articles about this case, that I haven't found this info. Her own office's website (http://rowancountyclerk.com/) doesn't seem to list this either. Plvt2 (talk) 14:29, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

All I can find is a reader comment on this page which says it's a "four-year term of office" but doesn't say how they know that. She took office in January according to our infobox. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:44, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Assuming this is still current:

"Kentucky’s Constitution of 1850 was the first to mention the office of county court clerk, providing for a clerk’s election in each county for a term of 4 years (Art. VI, sec. 1). The current constitution requires the election of a county court clerk in each county for a term of 4 years (Ky. Const., sec. 99)."
— p.53, Duties of Elected Officials

- MrX 14:52, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I lived in Kentucky for almost three years and can attest that not much has changed in eastern Kentucky since 1850. ;) ―Mandruss ☎ 14:57, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

The dates are from January 2015 to January 2019, that's how long her term will be. SuperCarnivore591 (talk) 15:22, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

MrX: Thanks for the info, I've added the date her term expires to the infobox, with a citation from the relevant section of the Kentucky Constitution as posted by the State Legislature.Plvt2 (talk) 19:35, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Sure Plvt2, and thanks for making the edit. - MrX 21:00, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Someone deleted it from the infobox (saying it didn't belong in that field), so I've added the date and source within the article's "2014 election" section.Plvt2 (talk) 12:39, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Licenses in other counties?

Could residents of Rowan County, Kentucky go to other Kentucky counties to obtain and use a marriage license?--DThomsen8 (talk) 19:55, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Of course, but what is the relevance of your query to this article? Stevie is the man! 20:37, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Those persons filing the lawsuit are pursuing a political point, the County Clerk is pursuing a religious point, and that is why we have a court to resolve the dispute. No one in Kentucky is being prevented from getting married.--DThomsen8 (talk) 20:48, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Since this is WP:NOTAFORUM, I won't discuss whether I agree or not. All I care about is what does this mean for the article. How do we fit your concern into this article and stay encyclopedic? Stevie is the man! 20:53, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

This is irrelevant. The court ruled that they have a right to be treated fairly by their county officials. That's really all there is to it. Geogene (talk) 20:57, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't know that it's irrelevant. If RS covers that aspect, I think we could consider it, either here or in Miller v. Davis. But I haven't seen that. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:07, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Which Apostolic Christian Church?

There are several "Apostolic Christian" articles on Misplaced Pages, and many of them have been recently visited by editors wishing to disclaim any and all affiliation with Davis. Apparently she is also not related to the Apostolic Church (denomination) linked in the infobox. But this raises the question: which church is she actually affiliated with, and do they have a Misplaced Pages article? The National Review seems to think that this does indeed refer to the Apostolic Christian Church of America, despite a couple editors' strenuous yet unsourced objections. Does anyone have more WP:RS supporting a definitive conclusion of any kind? Elizium23 (talk) 22:59, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

This question is certainly worth pursuing. We need to get it right. Let's take a look at the evidence:

1. According to a New York Times article (which we already use) and a Washington Post article, she is an "Apostolic Christian". Since both sources capitalize both words, one could mistakenly assume that the name of her church would be "Apostolic Christian", but that isn't necessarily the case, since "Christian" would be capitalized, no matter what. She may just be a "Christian" who is a member of any of a number of churches using the term "Apostolic" in their name. I think the following will support that conclusion.
2. According to a different New York Times article, she worships at "Solid Rock Apostolic Church". It is located in Morehead, KY.
3. According to "Apostolic-Churches.com", which is the "Worldwide Directory of Apostolic Pentecostal Churches & Ministries", there is an associated "Solid Rock Apostolic Church" in Morehead.
4. That makes it clear she's a member of a Pentecostal church body.
5. That "Apostolic Church" directory links to the local church's website - www.solidrockapostolicchurch.org - and identifies the Pastor as Daniel Carter. That link is dead, but Internet Archive has an archived link, which identifies the Pastor as Daniel Carter. There is no question that we're dealing with the right church. We have the right name and location.
   "About Us: Solid Rock Apostolic Church is an Apostolic/Pentecostal church near Morehead Kentucky."

So her church is an "Apostolic/Pentecostal Church", specifically the "Solid Rock" ministry in Morehead, and thus the full and specific name is "Solid Rock Apostolic Church".

Based on this information, we could write:

• Davis describes herself as an "Apostolic Christian" who worships at the Solid Rock Apostolic Church three times a week.

What think ye? I'm going to add this so we can actually see the result. -- BullRangifer (talk) 03:44, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Re: this

@BullRangifer: Ok, I'll bite. I examined both sources carefully and I see nothing that supports the statement, "Davis describes herself as an "Apostolic Christian" who worships at the Solid Rock Apostolic Church...". If it's that hard to find in the source given, it fails WP:V. Maybe you can help me out here. I'm not objecting to the content, which is sourced adequately without those refs. I'm objecting to the refs. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:16, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Mandruss, thanks for asking....AND questioning! I wouldn't want to make any mistakes here. Since the first ref doesn't really show here (because I copied the short version from the article), here's the version above with the full first reference:

• Davis describes herself as an "Apostolic Christian" who worships at the Solid Rock Apostolic Church three times a week.

Are you objecting to references 3 & 4? No. 2 is the secondary ref for the name of the church, and 3 & 4 are primary refs confirming and supporting the claim for the name of the church found in the secondary ref. Are you suggesting that 3 & 4 are superfluous? Maybe, but they definitely "support the content that precedes" them.

My research should be seen as an attempt to thoroughly answer the original question at the top of this thread. My research shows which denomination and local congregation she belongs to, and it's not the Apostolic Christian Church of America. These refs are relevant to that question and remove all confusion for editors and readers. -- BullRangifer (talk) 04:39, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

@BullRangifer: As I've indicated, I'm objecting to any ref that does not support the content. As far as I can see, the two refs that you added in the diff I linked to above don't say anything about Davis and so do not support the content that precedes them. To show that such a church exists in Morehead does not support the content, unless you commit OR/SYNTH. Per WP:V, "...must include an inline citation that directly supports the material." Emphasis mine. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:43, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Mandruss, it supports the identity of the denomination of that church. There was question about that. It doesn't apply to the identity of Davis. That's already clear. A reference may apply to one part of a sentence without applying to another part. As I said, I'm not wedded to those refs, but felt the need to provide them as a help to editors and readers who were confused about the proper identity of the denomination of that church. We need that because we've already had edit warring over the matter, so we increase the level of referencing when that happens. If it were a simple and uncontroversial matter, that wouldn't be necessary, but the edit warring and questions proved that it needed more sourcing on that point. If we find better references, we can substitute them. -- BullRangifer (talk) 07:25, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Not all questions need be, or should be, answered with just a reference. You have two refs with absolutely no explanation for why they are there. A reader will likely look at them and say, oh that's providing information about the church. But that's the function of External links, not references. If you want to address the denomination of the church, and you feel that's relevant, write some content about that and source it with these refs. I still think you're misusing refs, but will wait for other opinions. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:35, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Ah! I think I see what you mean. Let me give it a whirl and see if it works. Then we can discuss it. Thanks for the good input, and for your patience. -- BullRangifer (talk) 08:01, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I made several changes which justify the links, fill in gaps, and correct some sloppy and inaccurate wordings. We mentioned her denomination in the info box (I fixed that), but had no source for it. Now the sources serve their purpose. Her religion is very important to her and the whole issue, so it should be mentioned. I also rearranged the sentences for better flow. I hope that meets your approval. -- BullRangifer (talk) 08:28, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

I'll take your word for it that both refs are needed to support that one little sentence. Looks ok to me as to use of refs, but I'm agnostic as to the relevance of the sentence. You're on your own there. ―Mandruss ☎ 10:37, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

References

1. ^ Higdon, Jim; Larimer, Sarah; Somashekhar, Sandhya (September 1, 2015). "Kentucky Clerk Ordered to Court After Refusing to Issue Gay-Marriage Licenses". The Washington Post. Retrieved September 1, 2015. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |last-author-amp= ignored (|name-list-style= suggested) (help)
2. ^ Blinder, Alan; Fausset, Richard (September 1, 2015). "Kim Davis, a Local Fixture, and Now a National Symbol". The New York Times. Retrieved September 2, 2015. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |last-author-amp= ignored (|name-list-style= suggested) (help)
3. ^ "Solid Rock Apostolic Church". Archived from the original on October 22, 2014.
4. ^ "Worldwide Directory of Apostolic Pentecostal Churches & Ministries" lists an associated "Solid Rock Apostolic Church" in Morehead.
5. ^ Blackford, Linda B. (July 20, 2015). "Rowan Clerk Testifies She 'Prayed and Fasted' Over Decision to Deny Marriage Licenses". Lexington Herald-Leader. Retrieved September 1, 2015.

Oneness Pentecostal

Twice now, the religion in the article has been changed to Oneness Pentecostal without any significant explanation or sources provided. The existing, reliable sources, list the church she attends, and it does not appear to be Oneness Pentecostal. The only sources I see that suggest Oneness are blog-like, which are not reliable sources. If the sources we have got it wrong, that's fine, but we need to find equally reliable sources that indicate Oneness Pentecostal and preferably offer some justification for why that's correct and Solid Rock Apostolic is wrong. – Robin Hood  04:34, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Without sources, that change was wrong. Thanks for fixing it. -- BullRangifer (talk) 05:34, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, unless and until there are reliable mainstream sources backing up the religion change, it should be reverted. Stevie is the man! 08:37, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Having read the recent change, I see no proof that the church is Oneness Pentecostal. It only claims to be "Apostilitic/Penecostal" on its site. I think either Pentecostal or maybe to just Apostolic, even though it is an DAB. Anyone care to try to reach out to the church and ask them what they are? Jerod Lycett (talk) 13:15, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, we'd need RS for such a radical change of church denomination. -- BullRangifer (talk) 18:44, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

This article in The Courier-Journal seems to indicate she's Oneness Pentecostal ... 02:02, 7 September 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by HangingCurve (talk • contribs) 02:02, 7 September 2015

It does not. It says "Apostolic Pentecostal". Elizium23 (talk) 02:24, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

"Oneness" and "Apostolic" are used interchangably in those circles. I know--I was married to a UPCer for three years.HangingCurve 02:26, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Yet, we know for sure which church she attends and we also know for sure it is not Oneness. Elizium23 (talk) 02:35, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Anyway, see WP:NOR. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:40, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Elizium23 is correct. Working backwards, we know which local church she worships at "three times a week", and we know that that church is listed in the directory of "Apostolic-Churches.com", which is the "Worldwide Directory of Apostolic Pentecostal Churches & Ministries". They list "Solid Rock Apostolic Church" in Morehead. That makes it clear she's a member of a Pentecostal church body. That "Apostolic Church" directory links to the local church's website - www.solidrockapostolicchurch.org - and identifies the Pastor as Daniel Carter. That link is dead, but Internet Archive has an archived link, which identifies the Pastor as Daniel Carter. This source confirms that he is still her Pastor. There is no question that we're dealing with the right church. We have the right name and location: "About Us: Solid Rock Apostolic Church is an Apostolic/Pentecostal church near Morehead Kentucky."

That should settle the issue, and no change is needed. We have the right information in the article. -- BullRangifer (talk) 04:55, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Is she a criminal?

I don't have experience with the law, so I can't determine this. It likely needs a lawyer or other expert. My question is: is she a criminal (has she committed a crime) or does this fall under a different section of the law? Jerod Lycett (talk) 01:33, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Davis committed the crime of contempt of court. She was ordered to perform her job duties as part of a civil lawsuit, and didn't not follow the order. Stevie is the man! 01:41, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'm not sure, but as far as I can tell from sources, the contempt of court charge in this case is a civil charge. - MrX 01:42, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

OK, at best, it can be called an "offense". But the result is she is being treated like a criminal. I suppose we could use more legal guidance on this. Stevie is the man! 01:46, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

This isn't the place for it, try the Reference Desk. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reference_desk Geogene (talk) 01:54, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Reference desk isn't the place for it. It's here. It concerns her article, not random facts (RD doesn't cover law anyway). I'm asking because if she's a criminal she should be added to Category:Criminals from Kentucky, if she's not then that would be libelous. I'm tending to agree with MrX though, I believe it's a civil charge and not a criminal charge. Jerod Lycett (talk) 02:06, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Okay, thank you for that clarification, it looked like a random question. I'd advise against placing article in a "criminals" category until the bulk of RS say that she is a criminal. Otherwise it's OR in a BLP, which I agree is very bad. Geogene (talk) 02:11, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Does this adhere to WP:NEWSEVENT?

Reading through the above guideline for notability of events, I have questions about whether this article meets the criteria for inclusion. Especially whethe it will have lasting significance. I encourage everyone to read through WP:NEWSEVENT and then share your thoughts on whether this woman will have lasting notability. Perhaps putting this article up during the thick of things was too hasty, and it was better suited for Wikinews. Mmyers1976 (talk) 04:31, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Feel free to nominate the article for deletion if you wish - it may help to clarify the issue. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 04:32, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm a little hesitant to do so without a little bit more discussion first, from experience I've found that nominating an article for deletion can sometimes arouse strong feelings in people who've put a lot of work into an article very recently. But from what I see right now, this article falls under WP:BLP1E and is probably not notable. Mmyers1976 (talk) 04:39, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

You can't currently nominate this article for deletion, as it just passed an AfD as keep just three days ago. You'll have to wait much more longer. SuperCarnivore591 (talk) 04:45, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Ah, I just saw that a few minutes ago, the template for that being buried under all the other templates on the talk page. For what it's worth, I think too many people are too emotionally caught up in this to have objective perspective on it and were too hasty to decide it needed to be kept, but we'll see in a couple weeks when the media coverage has sputtered out, the article will probably be able to be ashcanned once everyone moves on to the next newsflash. Though, you should be aware there is not actually any policy on how long someone must wait before renominating an article for deletion, so I don't "have to wait much more (sic) longer", but in this case I will wait a week or so. Mmyers1976 (talk) 04:58, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Never mind people's feelings, Mmyers1976. If you think nominating the article for deletion again is the right thing to do, then do it. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 05:53, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it makes it past BLP1E, since the event is significant and Kim Davis' role is obviously the key role in the event. Even going by NEWSEVENT criteria, I think it's fair to say that this will have a lasting effect among a large group of people, since people across the US (and, really, around the world) are speaking either for or against her. Given that this whole thing is almost certain to come up again in January—the first possible chance to impeach her, short of a special session—I think it'll be lasting from that viewpoint as well. The rest of the criteria are very easily dealt with, since this story has received international coverage in a wide variety of sources. Having said all that, I think it's probably appropriate to reassess in a month or so, on the probably very slim chance that the furor all suddenly dies down and this somehow turns into a non-event. – Robin Hood  06:19, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

User:RobinHood70, I suspect you meant to write "do think" rather than "don't think" above. -- BullRangifer (talk) 07:18, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Uh...I don't know anymore, I give up! :P BLP1E is confusing, because it's written as disqualifying criteria rather than qualifying criteria. Just to be completely clear, I think this should be an article. – Robin Hood  15:14, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

The article had 18,661 page views yesterday. The subject has been widely and persistently covered across the globe, appearing in US national news for around eight weeks. Google news has nearly 2.5 million news pages indexed on the subject. The subject has initiated political discussion, protests, litigation, petitions, and commentary from the highest levels of government. Misplaced Pages's notability guideline is rife with contradictions, confusion, and ambiguity, yet some people treat it as a set of rules without much consideration for the practical benefit of deleting otherwise good content. This puzzles me, because each day, I see hundreds of articles cross our threshold about albums, football players, TV shows, beauty contests, tennis stats, small businesses, obscure authors, ghost sightings, yoga teachers, and cow towns. If we are promoting this encyclopedia as a resource of all knowledge, then why on earth would we not have an article on someone who defied the US Supreme Court on a major, historically-unique constitutional rights issue? Frankly, it defies common sense and I'm stunned that editors would pursue it so doggedly. - MrX 14:03, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

↑ Not bad. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:13, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Definitely worth keeping. Threatening renewed attempts to delete it is downright disruptive behavior. Any unnecessary AfDs are time wasting disruptive procedures. We had a very clear SNOW decision. If it had been a borderline keep it would be another matter, but it wasn't.

Refusal to be informed by that AfD and change one's mind is worrying and brings up competency concerns. Just revise your (mis)understanding of WP:BLP1E and WP:NEWSEVENT and drop the stick. -- BullRangifer (talk) 15:02, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Commentary needs Removal!

This passage: And all for a foolish mission aided by out of state charlatan lawyers trying to raise money for their 'religious liberty' mission." needs removal. It is skewed political commentary not WP:NPOV 人族 (talk) 05:00, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

NPOV's nutshell: "Articles must not take sides, but should explain the sides, fairly and without bias." That is an attributed quote which explains one of the sides, so cannot be excluded on NPOV grounds. My only reservation about that quote is that I read somewhere that the author is a disbarred lawyer who has some commentary about every verdict issued in the state of Kentucky. "The Kentucky Trial Court Review" may well be window dressing for what is little more than a blog, and anybody can set up a blog and write anything they want. Even if they have their own website, that means nothing; I have my own website. I'd prefer quotes from people who have some verifiable credentials. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:11, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

The source of the quote is a Facebook page. Is Facebook considered a reliable source by Misplaced Pages? 人族 (talk) 05:44, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

I have definite concerns about that quote as well. As 人族 says, the Kentucky Trial Court Review is simply a Facebook page, and an unverified one at that. The image presented could be anything, and we only have KTCR's word for it that the deputy clerks felt terrorized. I have no issues presenting that side of things, and I even think it might be right from some of the follow-up coverage I've seen, but if indeed that's how they felt, we definitely need a stronger source for that kind of quote. – Robin Hood  06:27, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

There's this website, too (actually just part of a larger site that includes other "publications"). Again, I have my own website. The contact phone number gives nothing at one "reverse phone number lookup" site, indicating a probable cell phone, and is "hidden" at another. Why would a legitimate publication use only a cell phone or unlist their land line? ―Mandruss ☎ 06:42, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Since that site shows nothing published since June 2014, it's possible he just moved his operation to Facebook to save money. Life's tough when nobody is willing to pay for your product. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:02, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

First of all, the NPOV argument is simply based on a misunderstanding. We include plenty of biased opinions and commentary all the time. People who don't understand Misplaced Pages think that NPOV means neutral, blah content. No, it doesn't mean that at all.

It means that EDITORS remain neutral in their editing: they do not include their own unsourced opinions; they do not give content a slant not present in the source; they do not censor or whitewash content by deleting it or neutering the slant which exists in a source; they seek to reproduce the spirit and wording (whether by quoting or paraphrasing) of the original source, regardless of how offensive they think it is. Misplaced Pages is uncensored in every way, not just in regard to sexual content and images.

Misplaced Pages would be a fourth its size and a boring encyclopedia not worth reading if we failed in our job to document "the sum total of human knowledge" as found in RS. A large part of that knowledge is biased, and even highly offensive, commentary. NPOV requires that we include it. -- BullRangifer (talk) 07:15, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

The source is Salon, not Facebook. That makes it a secondary source and legitimizes that particular use of any source it quotes, even Facebook. Regardless of who they quote or where they get their information, we don't reject them on that basis. If they claim actual facts, and they are absolutely wrong (they totally goofed), then we may not use them because they are inaccurate in that instance. In that case they are not a "reliable" source, even if they are generally considered to be so.

If they are quoting opinions, we are not allowed to violate NPOV by not using them because we do not agree, or because we find the opinion offensive. Actually, we like to find such strong opinions from all significant angles. They make our content worthwhile and interesting, and we're doing our duty to document the sum total of human knowledge. That "sum total" must necessarily include the edges far away from the blah middle ground. -- BullRangifer (talk) 07:15, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Good point, BullRangifer. My concern, though, is that it's unclear just by reading the article what the Kentucky Trial Court Review is. We're reporting what they said as though it were fact, but as far as I can tell, it's just one person's Facebook page and website, and there has been no fact-checking of the assertion, only checking that statement was made by some anonymous person. I think it would be more accurate to clarify that it's not an official news source that reported the original finding, just someone's Facebook page that purports to chronicle local events. – Robin Hood  15:33, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Here's the Salon source. We don't second guess a RS like Salon when their columnists and journalists publish opinions. Kaufman identifies his source and its author, Shannon Ragland. No one is anonymous. Ragland is certainly provocative and controversial, but anything but unnotable. As a judicial expert their opinion is considered valuable enough for other lawyers to pay $175 for a newsletter subscription. Regardless, that is no concern of ours. We are using Salon as our source for the opinion. It is probably accurate, since only Davis' son sides with her. The other clerks would have issued marriage licenses if she hadn't ordered them to refrain. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:52, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

I think this is a case where a second, stronger citation is called for. Salon has a particular bias (nothing wrong with that by itself) but I think something more mainstream would help bolster that content. Stevie is the man! 17:00, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Go for it. More content and sourcing is usually welcome. -- BullRangifer (talk) 21:32, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Sources for birthday?

Is there any source for her birth date of September 1965? The very first ref in the article next to her full name only supports that, her full name, but mentions nothing about a birthdate. We need to get a source for it. SuperCarnivore591 (talk) 05:29, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Her birthdate is listed on her marriage licenses, which are available here. 108.28.231.29 (talk) 21:44, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

That would seem to be a sufficiently good source for something as uncontentious as a birthdate.- MrX 21:50, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

This source also confirms her birthday. She'll be 50 on Sept. 17, 2015. -- BullRangifer (talk) 05:11, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Nice find. Beats BuzzFeed, so I substituted it. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:24, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Facebook video

I just noticed that the video in the External Links section is a Facebook video. Since Facebook requires a membership to view, WP:ELNO suggests that we not use that. Does anyone have another link handy to the same or similar video? – Robin Hood  06:02, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

removed.prokaryotes (talk) 11:25, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

The video on WKYT's Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/WKYTTV/videos/10153002714665766/) appears the same as one posted on that station's YouTube channel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O1Cb4O3dQs). It's a video that's gotten wide coverage, and the raw video should probably be linked to.

Note: As I was editing this comment, someone else added in a YouTube link to a shorter (more edited) version of the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xg1Dh2xhXg). The station also has on its YouTube channel a news story about the incident, but video of the incident is short and heavily edited: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xu0gRYIw_Q. Do others feel one of these is more appropriate? (Personally, I'll take the raw video over the edited ones, or maybe both that, and the news story.)Plvt2 (talk) 14:28, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

I was the editor who added the YouTube video after an editor removed the Facebook video. My preference would be to use raw, unedited footage, without any news commentary. - MrX 14:32, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

I always aim for the rawest I can find. Readers can jump forward if they don't want to watch the whole thing, and some readers see conspiracy in any editing. The footage they don't want you to see!! ―Mandruss ☎ 14:36, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

This are 2 different camera versions. However we do not link to facebook per WP:ELNO. I think the current version is a good middle ground but i personally would remove that too.prokaryotes (talk) 15:10, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Is the Facebook video the original upload by the creator(s) of the video? If so, then it's not a normal situation. Jerod Lycett (talk) 15:14, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

As I noted above, the video is from a news organization (WKYT-TV), and was posted on both their Facebook page, and their YouTube channel. The exclusion of Facebook appears to be an issue of reliability, but there's a difference between a Facebook page operated by some unknown individual, and one run by a professional news organization, as one more avenue for publishing their material. (And besides, if the Facebook page is not okay, the (apparently) identical YouTube video could be linked to.Plvt2 (talk) 15:43, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

I have no issues with the reliability, only that ELNO says at point #6 to exclude sites that require registration to view the content. FB, even if free, does require you to register before you can view the content. – Robin Hood  15:47, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

FYI, the Facebook page hosting the video linked above does not require registration to view the video. - MrX 16:05, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

There are exceptions to every rule and guideline. When FB and YouTube are used as official channels by recognized institutions, they may be okay if there are no other sources for the content in question. I would favor YouTube. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:37, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

(←) MrX: Apparently, you're right. I was under the impression that all Facebook content required membership to view, but I was wrong. The video is viewable even when logged out. – Robin Hood  18:13, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Known for

I'm honestly not sure what's the appropriate way to go here, so I'm bringing it up just so that there's a clear consensus. Currently, in the "known for", it says that Kim Davis didn't issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. While that was initially true, she later extended it to not issuing marriage licenses to anybody at all due to the legalization of same-sex marriage. Which is more appropriate for the infobox? This would presumably also affect the disambiguation page. (I brought up the topic there, but the response base is obviously limited on a dab page and there have been no responses at all so far.) – Robin Hood  18:45, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

I would say "denying marriage licenses" period. She didn't discriminate by continuing to issue licenses to straight couples. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:50, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Alternatively, it can be seen she was denying marriage licenses to all so as to deny marriage licenses to same-sex couples. If that wasn't the rationale, what other possible rationale could there be? Given sources have clearly reported that is why she denied them to all, then I think we should concentrate on Davis' core purpose. Stevie is the man! 19:18, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree that the current wording is not quite complete or accurate, but I'm not sure what the ideal wording is. Whatever wording someone comes up with, just remember that the infobox should provide a brief and succinct summary of the information in the article (avoid expanding it beyond necessary), and needs to be kept NPOV.Plvt2 (talk) 20:42, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

The current wording is pretty accurate: "Refusal to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples following Obergefell v. Hodges" I suggest we leave it as is. -- BullRangifer (talk) 21:29, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree with BullRangifer. While she did refuse to issue any marriage licenses, she's known for refusing to issue them to same-sex couples. - MrX 21:41, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree with MrX and BullRangifer. If she had just said I'm not issuing marriage licenses, we wouldn't have an article. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:51, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Since it's technically inaccurate how about: Kim Davis (county clerk) (born 1965), Kentucky official jailed for her refusal to issue marriage licenses following Obergefell v. Hodges. It's up to the user to investigate what OvH is and investigate why that would have triggered the end of license issuing. 118.208.116.242 (talk) 05:41, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

"technically inaccurate"? Please explain. -- BullRangifer (talk) 18:39, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Let's be honest, she's known for failure to do her elected job. That's the reason she's been put through court, that's the reason she was originally found in contempt (she's now in contempt for not agreeing to allow others to do their job basically). Jerod Lycett (talk) 08:32, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Picture

The picture of Kim Davis in this article should be replaced. It shows her photographed while under arrest. An appropriate picture would be more neutral. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 00:45, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Do you have any free non-copyrighted photos? --DrBat (talk) 00:46, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

No, I'm simply raising the issue of the inappropriateness of the current picture. Granted that part of the reason Davis is notable was her being arrested, it's still wrong, for obvious reasons, to show a picture of her in a police photograph. Effectively, that identifies her as a criminal and nothing but. That, frankly, is how I think most people would respond to a picture like that. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 00:49, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

If the image were actually public domain, it possibly could be used in the article per WP:MUG, in the appropriate context. Using it as a lead or infobox image is inappropriate. - MrX 00:55, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

It's what she's most known for, being arrested for defying the court order that she issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. --DrBat (talk) 01:09, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Agreed with MrX. It needs to move down to "Contempt hearing" if it stays. DrBat, there is no consensus for inclusion, let alone consensus for inclusion in the infobox. You are being disruptive by asserting your view as the indisputable truth and re-adding the photo. Please stop. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:11, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I added a different version, because the first version was incorrectly labeled. --DrBat (talk) 01:13, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

A BLP lead image should represent the subject, not the controversy that the subject is known for. Portraying the subject in a negative light runs afoul of WP:NPOV. - MrX 01:16, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I suspect we'll reach consensus for inclusion in "Contempt hearing", but we haven't yet and that's not where you added it anyway. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:19, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

In the meantime, I've done a bit of cropping. The image is File:KimDavis.jpg by the way. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:51, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I still don't see that image as ideal. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:36, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree - I would rather use a fair-use photo than a mugshot. --Varnent (talk) 02:45, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I think the suggestion by Mandruss is the best solution. Move it down to "Contempt hearing". She is certainly known for a potential crime, and this image is perfectly proper for that section, but it's too strong for the info box. Restore it to the other spot. -- BullRangifer (talk) 05:09, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

What potential crime? As I understand it contempt of court is a civil matter not a criminal one. I heard of her because her jailing made international headlines. Nelson Mandela was also jailed, and yet while he was convicted of at least one crime (I've not looked up the specifics of his record) he's classed variously as a saboteur, a politician convicted of crimes, a prisoner and someone apparently charged with treason, but not a criminal. To focus or promote Kim Davis' "criminal" status would not only be inconsistent but at this stage pure fiction. 人族 (talk) 06:03, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

@FreeKnowledgeCreator: said is notable was her being arrested, it's still wrong, for obvious reasons What are the obvious reasons? If a photo goes towards notabiity, why is it wrong? Especially if it is not in fact libelous. Could you suggest what Misplaced Pages policy is violated by the picture? --Bejnar (talk) 05:54, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

May we assume that said policy is NPOV? The argument is not completely without merit. I agree that the image is not ideal (I assume they meant because it's a mug shot, not because of the poor photographic quality or my cropping, correct me if I'm wrong). But I feel it's acceptable in "Contempt hearing". I could go find some examples where mug shots have been used for individuals who are not full-blown criminals, but that would only be countered with Misplaced Pages:Other stuff exists so I won't. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:08, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Even on the image the fair use rationale states that it's used in the section on the person's arrest. I see no issue with it illustrating her arrest and confinement, especially since she's now got potential criminals charges. Jerod Lycett (talk) 08:48, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

The NPOV argument is valid but largely a matter of interpretation and editorial judgment. So we're left to simple numbers, and it's 6 to 3 for inclusion, including one weak include (MrX). But the includes are split 4-1-1 as to placement, DrBat for infobox and Bejnar unspecified. If those two could support "Contempt hearing", we would have a consensus. And I think most of us would support a neutral photo in the infobox if one could be found. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:28, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree on both counts. Someone has added a mugshot photo in the right section, so now we just need a more neutral one for the infobox. -- BullRangifer (talk) 21:10, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Irresponsible use of ReFill

It's great we have scripts like ReFill, but like with any tool, the editor holds all responsibility for their edits. The most recent use of ReFill wiped out author info on at least two citations I've spotted so far. At any rate, I'm going to manually clean up all the refs I can find. The other editor could have seen I was expanding these refs so I don't really understand why the use of the tool was done in the middle of my work. Stevie is the man! 15:17, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, a little more caution can't hurt. I wish Refill would properly parse the author information form the sources. I've mentioned it to the developer, but didn't get a response.- MrX 15:25, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

No whining. And no editor has to try and determine if another editor is "in the middle of their work". Sorry about my refill edit removing two authors. If you had looked closely, you would have seen that the refill edit added two other authors that you tried to excise. Thank-you for filling in authors missing from any citations. I also worked diligently yesterday with multiple manual edits and ensured every single reference in this article is in terrific shape, adding missing dates, titles, accessdates, name of work, publisher, ensured proper use of the cite template, fixed inconsequential formatting, corrected re-directed URLs, and added several new cited references. Prhartcom (talk) 21:39, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

RfC: Should this biography include commentary or reactions from politicians?

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RfC: Should this biography include commentary or reactions from politicians? - MrX 16:55, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support – Barack Obama has Cultural and political image, George Walker Bush has Public image and perception. It seems reasonable that when Presidential candidates are discussing someone's case that we would find mention of it. The key should be keeping it verifiable, neutral, and proportionate. That is, we should strive to briefly represent the major point of views, and perhaps more briefly the overall spectrum of all the views (while attributing, but not endorsing each).--Nosfartu (talk) 17:23, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support – Reactions from notable politicians, namely those running for President of the United States, are being reported in reliable sources and belong in this article. We can't censor the article. However, let us remember this article is a biography and not an event, so we should not put undue weight on these reactions. A couple of sentences perhaps, such as: "Politicians a, b, and c released statements of support for Davis; Mike Huckabee said "x". Other politicians such as x and y maintained Davis should follow the law; Jeb Bush said "z." Prhartcom (talk) 17:26, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• Weak support - Honestly, if we were going to include reactions, it would probably better be in a separate article, like 2015 Rowan County county clerk controversy, although, hopefully, a better title than that one in particular. Personally, I might prefer that as a title than this one, because there is now also some information regarding the controversy, like her son who works there not having to issue gay marriage licenses, and her saying that she will not recognize any that are issued without here real approval, and so on. And, yes, I think that, maybe, that might be a higher priority article than this one. John Carter (talk) 18:24, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• A spinout sub-article could be justified if such content grew to an undue size and overwhelmed this article. Since this article is only about her because her refusal made her notable, it could be argued that such content really does belong here. It's what she's known for. It really does demand great weight here, but for reading purposes should still be kept smaller, and complete coverage could be left to a spinout sub-article. -- BullRangifer (talk) 18:37, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Point taken; articles about events like the title you suggest are the way to document the story that happens to non-notable people like who Davis otherwise would be, but I suppose a biography here is fine. Davis is at the very center of this controversy and has caused all of it. Prhartcom (talk) 18:50, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• Actually, I acknowledge that it is a virtual certainty that she is going to resign and assume some other political position, probably in some sort of "think tank," but, if she doesn't, wouldn't it really make more sense to have a separate article on the controversy rather than a biography until then? John Carter (talk) 20:04, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support per Prhartcom's comment. A prior censorship refusal to include notable political commentary has no basis in policy or normal practice, and in fact goes against normal practice. That content is directly related to this subject and found in myriad RS. We are allowed some editorial discretion, but it doesn't extend to total omission. Such a refusal is actually editorial censorship, and thus a clear violation of NPOV. Such commentary must be considered, formulated properly, and then added. -- BullRangifer (talk) 18:28, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support for objectively connected politicians onlySupport per Prhartcom with caveats. As far as the example comment is concerned, we should consider the candidate's recent polling and even more importantly, where their statement fits on that side's (supporter/non-supporter) "bell curve". We should aim for a statement that's in the middle of that curve. Overall, here, we need to make this content brief and uninviting to expansion. Outside of this article, I think since there's implications in the state's governor's race, some mention should go into Kentucky gubernatorial election, 2015 or the individual candidate articles. Stevie is the man! 18:38, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• To explain why it should be made uninviting to expansion, this is no matter of censorship, but a matter of having out-sized content about one aspect of a biography. We should strive to avoid that, hopefully in a preemptive manner by matter of the content's design. Stevie is the man! 18:57, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• (ec) Stevietheman, I may be misunderstanding you, so I apologize if that's the case. I need clarification. It sounds like you are encouraging a violation of NPOV through deliberate use of false balance. In a certain sense, we should ignore where they are on the curve. We actually want comments from all places on the curve, if they exist. If not, we present them and let the "balance" fall where it may.
  I have seen this before, and it is not our business to create such "balance". We don't have to make a tally (although we could) of how many are "for" and "against", but should just present what's available. We should definitely not limit the number of inclusions so we only present one or two for each group as "examples" for each position. If there are eight "for", two in the "middle", and 14 "against", we present all of them. -- BullRangifer (talk) 19:00, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• Dealing with size is a matter for a possible spinout sub-article. See my comment above. -- BullRangifer (talk) 19:05, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• There's no false balance that even can be called for in this matter, as opinions from both supporters and non-supporters have been plentiful. As for wanting comments from all places on the curve, that sounds like it goes against the spirit of writing an encyclopedia, where we are called upon to keep it as brief as reasonable while covering the notable bases via due coverage. There are only two general sides here, and there's a pretty clear commonality of what's said on each side. We're not here to cover all possible stray rants. We're here to cover the gist of each side's position. We're not here to cover all possible soapboxing. Stevie is the man! 19:15, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• We actually agree. -- BullRangifer (talk) 19:25, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• Good, because I was starting to be concerned.  :) Seriously, the balance I called for was a real (rough) balance that is already in existence out in the wild. That's why I bristle at the idea I was calling for a false one. I have gotten the (maybe false) impression by some that they wanted to pretend that the world's full of supporters and comparatively lacking non-supporters. Stevie is the man! 19:34, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• User:Stevietheman, from what I've seen, only a radical fringe (and there are plenty of them) support her. Most mainstream sources, and the law, are very strong in their condemnation of her actions, which they see as her attempts to force others to obey her beliefs. That's not religious freedom. That's religious persecution of non-believers. In a democracy, that doesn't fly very well. As one source puts it: "Some people are comparing Kim Davis to Rosa Parks ... but Parks was arrested for demanding equal rights. Davis was arrested for denying equal rights." -- BullRangifer (talk) 19:47, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• (no need to ping back, sometimes I'm just slow to respond or choose not to respond :) ) I concur with these particulars, but alas this is WP:NOTAFORUM. Since we have a media that presents both sides as more or less equal (even if not in terms of reason/representation), I don't know if there's much we can do to not allow the supporter faction a roughly equal say. This is basically one of my core critiques of Misplaced Pages, even while I love it -- while events are happening or new, we are constrained by today's "both sides are equally valuable" corporate media. If we had more of an independent media like we used to have, the Misplaced Pages content would be somewhat different (a higher quality, IMHO). Stevie is the man! 20:00, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• We agree. That is exactly why I kept talking against a false balance. -- BullRangifer (talk) 20:08, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• I'm holding out on voting for now to see if other comments sway me one way or the other, but is there any reason not to start a spinoff article now, perhaps calling it the Rowan County, Kentucky marriage license controversy or possibly even include the Casey County/Casey Davis material and call it Kentucky marriage license controversy? There seems to be plenty of material to work with. - MrX 19:18, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• The general idea here is all right by me although this may well grow beyond Kentucky before it's all done. Let that article get the expansion attention and we'll just sum it up here.  :) Stevie is the man! 19:27, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• Those spinoffs may become relevant, but they should result because of a demand created by bloating here. That demand will focus and dictate the exact working title of a spinoff sub-article. Before that happens, working on the same topic in more than one place is a recipe for disaster. -- BullRangifer (talk) 19:31, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• Like I think I've indicated already, this works fine in general here in the Misplaced Pages, but given this matter keeps blowing up and the IPs start roaming free again, I will probably choose not to come near this article. I have more important things to do than maintain a wild animal of an article, inside and outside of the wiki. Stevie is the man! 19:41, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• The semi-protection is working just fine. -- BullRangifer (talk) 19:50, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• I am changing my !vote based on discussion. I find there's no objective connection of any presidential candidates to this subject. However, if they state a position related to this case or this issue in general, that's certainly fair game for their articles. The only politicians objectively connected this subject are state-level Kentucky politicians who have some degree of power or influence with respect to how county clerks perform their work. A gray area would include gubernatorial candidates, as whoever becomes governor impacts related policies.
  One might ask then: What if a notable presidential candidate personally injects themselves into this matter, such as appearing at a rally or intervening in some way in her case? I'll leave that open, but like Mr. X suggests, should an encyclopedia reward political desperation, and if not, how do we separate desperation from genuine intervention? Stevie is the man! 15:01, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Qualified Support. Insofar as the biography includes material from this single issue, that issue should not overrun the biography article. If the issue itself is the article, it should be renamed or spun off. Given that the single issue must be treated with balance within a biography, so also the political commentary must be balanced within the issue. In a biography article, I see therefore very little room for the political commentary, and would suggest that the appropriate coverage might be a single sentence saying something like "Leading politicians including A, B, C, and D have all given statements supporting the requirement that a government official must obey the law.", and then provide a list of sources with the details, or a brief note if really necessary. Truly, the media coverage of the issue is not the biography itself, and shouldn't be treated as such. The issue seems bigger to me than the biography, and I'm inclined to think it needs its own article. That would have a little more room to include these statements, which might be individualized to a sentence each if anyone is so devoted to them. But the fundamental conflict is indeed that necessity to obey the law as opposed to the right of the citizen to act in conscience with respect to religious belief, often thought to be supported by the phrase "freedom of religion", itself a part of the law. So the issue strikes at a fundamental legal proposition of this nation, and the conflict induced can and does mean people may take sides, or express their own conflicts about it. It's good material for an article. However, it's very early to create such an article, because the only available sources at this time will be media reports, and reportage provides no context or scholarly synthesis (that's not its purpose). So actually writing this article may prove to be impossible at present, until some of the requisite sources are produced from the outside. Until then, WP stands (potentially) in danger of editorial squabbles that can't be reconciled, and I don't recommend stepping into that situation. Evensteven (talk) 19:07, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support It is very commonplace to include reactions from political figures, especially in the face of political controversies like these. Lots of politicians have made such statements, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to include one statement from one politician. SuperCarnivore591 (talk) 00:06, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Are you able to point out any examples of biographies of relatively unknown people who became involved in controversy, that have political commentary and quotes in the articles? I'm struggling to think of any myself. - MrX 12:42, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• That makes the point. It shows the great significance of this whole affair. It's not a flash-in-the-pan event. It sets legal precedent. It's a direct challenge to the Constitution in several ways, and to the Supreme Court. No wonder very notable people are commenting. It would be a crime if they didn't. There is no policy allowing us to ignore something like this, and NPOV and the purpose of Misplaced Pages require us to document it. -- BullRangifer (talk) 21:06, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - Politicians' comments on things like this are always self-serving grandstanding. It's not necessarily what they believe, but rather what they believe will help get them re-elected or further their party's agenda. I don't see what value that information has to our readers. We don't include content solely because RS reports on it, even if they report widely on it; that is a misinterpretation and misapplication of WP:DUE. We apply a relevance filter to RS coverage. As for other articles, if that is your only or primary argument for Support, see WP:OTHER and please add an actual rationale to your !vote. Put differently, many articles about modern controversies omit politicians' statements, too, and that OTHER cancels out your OTHER, rendering any mention of OTHER a cherry-picking waste of words. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:57, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose - This a biography, not a soapbox for promoting political platitudes. We should not be giving airplay to any politicians in this article per WP:NOTPROMO. Misplaced Pages is not a platform for influencing elections, or for allowing candidates to improve their polling numbers on the back of a controversy, which is precisely what Cruz, Clinton, Huckabee and Bevin are doing. I'm afraid that if we allow such commentary, it will inevitable consist of cherry-picked quotes, and we will have created an embarrassing WP:COATRACK and a poor excuse for an encyclopedia article. - MrX 01:04, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• I have to say this is a very strongly backed up position and I appreciate this line of thinking. On the other hand, if there are widely reported political statements from heavyweight politicians of the day, this would seem to come under "controversy" or "critical response" and these things are oftentimes useful in articles. I can see a line you're drawing that is interesting, though. If the response comes from a politician that has some kind of close connection to the policies surrounding Kentucky county clerks (and thus Kim Davis's office), their views would seem to have special weight. for example Senate President Stivers. The Kentucky governor's race also conceivably connects to this, as state policy with respect to how clerks handle marriage licenses is part of this matter. But the presidential race arguably has really no connection to it. In that respect, you're right -- what do they have beyond distant electioneering for making their statements? Stevie is the man! 01:20, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Given our highly polarized political environment, virtually every politician has a "close connection" to this issue. To get elected (or re-elected), they have to come out as for same-sex marriage or against it, and any of these statements is essentially a campaign speech. I think you'll find that most Republicans are supporting Davis and most Democrats are opposing her. There is no informational value in that — readers already know these social issues are divided along those lines — and we do our readers a disservice by pretending that there is. If you want to include politicians' statements that go against their party, that might be noteworthy (although probably more useful in the politician's article than in this one). ―Mandruss ☎ 02:20, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, politicians are using this as a vehicle for advancing their campaigns. I was actually on the fence about adding material about Mike Huckabee's "involvement", until it became clear why he was suddenly so interested in mild-mannered Kim Davis of Kentucky—his polling numbers are tanking at around 4%. I do think some of the more notable politician positions on Kim Davis' unlawful actions should be documented, but rightfully in their own biographies, political positions articles, and campaign articles. - MrX 12:55, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• This makes sense. I see no objective connection from presidential candidates to this subject. Kentucky gubernatorial candidates are more a gray area, IMHO, because this involves state-level policies with regards to how a clerk conducts their work. Stevie is the man! 14:48, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Tentatively oppose. Do politicians care about the case or the issue? If it's the issue then perhaps a stub included within the page, but only until a full page can be spun off.

• As regards BullRangifer's post upthread, not it's not a radical fringe actually, it's a significant portion of the community. I've posted a legal reference downthread which suggests that not only does Kim Davis have the right to refuse but that the state has the obligation to accommodate her. And on a whim I did a quick Google and found this: . Not suggesting it be included in the article but does an excellent job of describing a large section of the community. The issue at stake isn't whether laws were broken but rather who broke what law and why. When a mayor betrayed his office to illegally issue licenses he was praised. When Kim Davis refused to do a job she was never voted in to do - issue licenses per the new Supreme Court definition she was crucified. The analogy with Rosa Parks (once I'd looked it up) is actually a very good analogy - both were arrested not for demanding others do or not do something, but simply for demanding they be permitted their rights. 人族 (talk) 15:23, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Differences: 1) Davis was denying the civil rights of other citizens; Parks didn't do that. 2) Davis's freedom of religious expression wasn't in play, as her personal/private expression wasn't affected in any way. A government officer cannot pretend to be merely a private citizen and then argue freedom of religious expression to not follow the laws she agreed to follow and simultaneously trample on others' rights. Here also there is no parallel with Parks. Let's not turn this into a forum, though. No matter how it's viewed, IMHO, how the public is broken into camps doesn't seem to have any relevance to whose comments we include in the article. That's not how we judge notability and due coverage. Stevie is the man! 17:41, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support, but strict circumstances - The opinion of someone like the President of the United States is notable and has a large social/cultural impact. A sitting U.S. Senator or something in that vein doesn't have the same bully pulpit, but it's a difference of degree and not in kind. However, in cases that touch on such a controversial issue and relate to a living person we really don't want to just pile on opinions by every Johnny Come-lately. Adding comments by someone like Barack Obama and Marco Rubio is defensible, but I really don't want to see statements by the likes of Deez Nuts, Ted Nugent, Matt Bevin, Perez Hilton, Rush Limbaugh, Oprah, Ben Carson, Kim Kardashian, et cetera piling up in this article like tea leaves clogging a sink. The fact that we're talking about such a sensitive matter makes being strict about sourcing and the notability of things pretty important. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 18:01, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Also, I'm going to point out that we still have to look at the content of the commentary as well. Someone from the far right claiming that Kim Davis is similar is to Rosa Parks is engaging in a particularly vicious kind of libel given the lies that have to be made to take that position-- Parks was a private citizen prevented from acting freely due to heavy-handed government regulations while Davis is a government official that deliberately forbid the ability of other people to exercise their freedom, wanting more state power and more state authority than the law, as well as coerced other individuals to obey her will. It's very much like the far right claims about Holocaust denier David Irving as a free speech hero akin to Martin Luther King Jr. given the David Irving libel case (but, of course, Irving was the censor using the government to sue people for libel for calling him out-- Irving was no free expression martyr). On the far left side, we have some people making all kinds of horrible comments made about Davis' past marriages, her physical appearance, her accent, and so on. Both of those comments from the "gays are inferior subhumans" Christian far right types and the "southern women are inferior subhumans" secularist far left types really should be kept an extreme distance from this article. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 18:12, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Proposed addition

The outcome of the RfC immediately above will determine if we can proceed with effectuating this proposed addition. In the meantime, we can work on it. -- BullRangifer (talk) 21:17, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

If we decide to include this, I wanted to start a draft we can edit (up, down, or sideways) from:

• White House spokesman Josh Earnest said "No public official is above the rule of law, certainly not president of the United States, but neither is the Rowan county clerk." Kentucky Governor Steve Beshear said "the future of the Rowan County clerk is now in the hands of the courts." Democratic Presidential candidate Hillary Clinton said "Officials should be held to their duty to uphold the law – end of story." GOP Presidential candidate Donald Trump said "the decision's been made, and that is the law of the land". GOP Presidential candidate Jeb Bush said Davis "is sworn to uphold the law." Carly Fiorina, Chris Christie, and Lindsey Graham took a stance similar to Bush.
• GOP Presidential Candidate Mike Huckabee staged a rally for Davis outside the jail she was being held in and encouraged Davis while meeting her in her jail cell. GOP Presidential candidates Ted Cruz and Rand Paul also voiced support for Davis. Matt Bevin, a Kentucky GOP gubernatorial candidate, said "a license should not be needed" from the government for same sex marriages.

--Nosfartu (talk) 18:31, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

References

1. Meyer, Ken (September 3, 2015). "Josh Earnest Responds to KY Clerk's Jailing: 'No Public Official Is Above the Rule of Law'". Mediaite. Retrieved September 7, 2015.
2. Spiering, Charlie (September 3, 2015). "White House on Kim Davis: No Public Official Above the Rule of Law". Breitbart. Retrieved September 7, 2015.
3. Peralta, Eyder (September 1, 2015). "Despite High Court Ruling, Kentucky Clerk Denies Marriage Licenses". NPR. Retrieved September 7, 2015.
4. "Beshear: Kim Davis' future in courts' hands; 'I have no legal authority' to remove her from office". Northern Kentucky Tribune. September 2, 2015. Retrieved September 7, 2015.
5. Byrnes, Jesse (September 3, 2015). "Clinton: Officials should 'uphold the law'". The Hill. Retrieved September 7, 2015.
6. ^ Gehrke, Joel (September 4, 2015). "Jeb Bush: Kim Davis Is 'Sworn to Uphold the Law'". National Review. Retrieved September 7, 2015.
7. Sherfinski, David (September 4, 2015). "Donald Trump on Kim Davis case: 'The Supreme Court has ruled'". The Hill. Retrieved September 7, 2015.
8. Sherfinski, David (September 7, 2015). "Donald Trump on Kentucky clerk: Same-sex marriage the 'law of the land'". CNN. Retrieved September 7, 2015.
9. ^ Israel, Josh (September 3, 2015). "Only 2 Republican Candidates Think Kim Davis Needs To Quit Or Follow The Law". ThinkProgress. Retrieved September 7, 2015.
10. Byrnes, Jesse (September 3, 2015). "GOP candidates blast 'absurd' jailing of Kentucky marriage clerk". The Hill. Retrieved September 7, 2015.
11. "Matt Bevin Responds to Kim Davis's Arrest". WTVQ-DT. September 3, 2015. Retrieved September 7, 2015.
12. "Matt Bevin calls on Governor Steve Beshear to uphold Kentuckians' individual liberties". WBKO. September 3, 2015. Retrieved September 7, 2015.

Please feel free to edit in place or make your own proposal in an additional subsection.--Nosfartu (talk) 18:34, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Nosfartu, that's an excellent start. Thanks. Shouldn't this be bulleted, rather than in a quote box? If so, please fix that. -- BullRangifer (talk) 18:47, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I went ahead and updated that, but please feel free to edit to your heart's content.--Nosfartu (talk) 18:49, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

(Based on original text...) Like I said above, I appreciate this effort, and in a vacuum, it works (although Conway's response should be mentioned if Bevin's is), but I'm afraid it's too attractive for expansion to an out-sized portion of the article. After all, this article is a biography of Davis, not an article about political reactions to her jailing. On the other hand, if she ping-pongs in and out of jail and this drags on for many more months, I can imagine a plethora of reactions we would want to cover, and then a separate 'controversy' article would be called for. Stevie is the man! 18:54, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

That's right. The RS will dictate how this develops. Our job is just to document the "sum total of human knowledge" about this subject. That's why Misplaced Pages biographies are so different from bios elsewhere. We don't strictly limit content to typical biographical matters, but, within reason, may include anything directly and tangentially about the subject. -- BullRangifer (talk) 19:09, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

No, (RS + Notability + Due) dictate how this develops. I'm afraid here there's no argument because these policies/guidelines are sacrosanct. Stevie is the man! 19:19, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Of course. We agree. I just took it for granted that you knew I understood this. -- BullRangifer (talk) 19:27, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I have combined the three bullet points of proposed text above into two: One against Davis and one for. I have just finished combining the messy multi-paragraph "list format" in the Reaction section of the article into two paragraphs: one against Davis, one for, and so I propose the two bullet points above each be merged into those two paragraphs. Prhartcom (talk) 19:36, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Prhartcom, nice work! The prose works for me. -- BullRangifer (talk) 19:59, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Sorry to LOL, but the IPs and non-autoconfirmed are currently walled out. Just wait until that gate opens again, and then I predict the current stability goes bye-bye. Stevie is the man! 19:50, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

They can be walled out again. No problemo. -- BullRangifer (talk) 19:53, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't see how we can work on this and related articles without the wall staying up. I don't like these walls in general, but this will be a mess with IP edits going on. Stevie is the man! 20:07, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Some admins are willing to make semi-protection more-or-less permanent for controversial articles. It works well. Serious editors usually register anyway. Those who object to registration using the argument that Misplaced Pages is where "anyone can edit" fail to understand that "anyone can edit". Nothing is forcing them to not register. If they are kept out by semi-protection, they can edit by registering. -- BullRangifer (talk) 20:15, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Agreed with BullRangifer (this is becoming a habit! (we're not socks, honest!)). Editing unregistered is not a civil right, but it's treated as such by many IPs and some others. If you're an IP who doesn't like IP life at Misplaced Pages, stop being an IP. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:48, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Luv that song! Oh, I agree. I've been here since about 2003, and many times I've asked other editors, admins, and even ArbCom members, for a good reason for editing as an IP; Is there any advantage? I have received many replies, but never a good justification. There are a hell of a lot of disadvantages, and lots of advantages for those who register. Anyone can edit Misplaced Pages, and requiring everyone to register wouldn't affect that at all. Just the increased privacy is a good reason. -- BullRangifer (talk) 20:54, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Ahem. To get the conversation back on track: Are we okay with the proposed text presented in the two bullets above? I have looked it over and believe it is in good shape, and as well I have spent the last hour citing each reaction with multiple reliable sources. Make any edits directly to it if you must, providing the RS and stating what change you made below. If you trust me enough to do so, I will be happy to incorporate this into the reaction section. Also with your permission, I would like to copy a couple of politician pro and con reactions into the article lead. Prhartcom (talk) 21:00, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

The material cannot be introduced until the RfC is closed and consensus determined. While I'm sure that the RfC doesn't have to run the full 30 days, less than 30 hours is certainly not nearly long enough. - MrX 21:07, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Good point. I have added an introductory note at the top of this section. -- BullRangifer (talk) 21:17, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Article subject/title

Ok, this is the requested new section to discuss what this article is about. In order not to leave threads hanging that have come from above, I'll copy the segments that have generated this talk.

1. Evensteven, RfC: Qualified Support. Insofar as the biography includes material from this single issue, that issue should not overrun the biography article. If the issue itself is the article, it should be renamed or spun off. Given that the single issue must be treated with balance within a biography, so also the political commentary must be balanced within the issue. In a biography article, I see therefore very little room for the political commentary, and would suggest that the appropriate coverage might be a single sentence saying something like "Leading politicians including A, B, C, and D have all given statements supporting the requirement that a government official must obey the law.", and then provide a list of sources with the details, or a brief note if really necessary. Truly, the media coverage of the issue is not the biography itself, and shouldn't be treated as such. The issue seems bigger to me than the biography, and I'm inclined to think it needs its own article. That would have a little more room to include these statements, which might be individualized to a sentence each if anyone is so devoted to them. But the fundamental conflict is indeed that necessity to obey the law as opposed to the right of the citizen to act in conscience with respect to religious belief, often thought to be supported by the phrase "freedom of religion", itself a part of the law. So the issue strikes at a fundamental legal proposition of this nation, and the conflict induced can and does mean people may take sides, or express their own conflicts about it. It's good material for an article. However, it's very early to create such an article, because the only available sources at this time will be media reports, and reportage provides no context or scholarly synthesis (that's not its purpose). So actually writing this article may prove to be impossible at present, until some of the requisite sources are produced from the outside. Until then, WP stands (potentially) in danger of editorial squabbles that can't be reconciled, and I don't recommend stepping into that situation.
2. Interchange from "Proposed Addition section": Please see reference above in my response to the RfC. I just wanted to say that this article as it stands presently appears to me to be more of the issue article than a biography. (It's fine for such an article to provide biographical background such as this does.) It does make me wonder if the article shouldn't be renamed and identified with the issue. The issue is, after all, the prime reason for the notability of the person, and for the political commentary. Despite the cautions I stated above, it seems that things are under control at present. Just be careful of creating a soapbox for every politician who wants to make another comment. I'm sure there will be more to come. Evensteven (talk) 19:42, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Evensteven, I really like your thinking! The issue is the notable thing, and Davis is only the focal point. A new title would solve that problem, because this isn't a typical biography of someone notable for who they are, but for someone notable for an event. The event should be the focus of the title. Any suggestions? How about Kim Davis marriage license controversy? How about creating a new section to discuss this subject. Just move our two comments there. -- BullRangifer (talk) 19:57, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

That would require consensus. I don't think I'm in favor of it. This person is at the center of the controversy and is causing all of it herself. I see your point, naturally, but this biography is not unprecedented. (An early twentieth century murderer Leo Frank is one example; I just saw a discussion for that article end today with a decision to keep it as a biography.) Agreed that we need to keep the reactions to a minimum. Prhartcom (talk) 20:23, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I think we are in basic agreement about the focus. Yes, she's the explosive primer for this controversy, but the controversy itself is the main subject, because she, as a person, is TOTALLY inconsequential. Yet she must remain a significant part of the controversy because she won't stop, nor will her involvement be forgotten. My suggested title retains her name, as it should. -- BullRangifer (talk) 20:39, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

The subject of this article is a person, who has already been shown to be notable. We don't use the MOVE function to DELETE an article and create another with same content. Of course, you're free to create a fork and recycle as much content as you like (with attribution of course). - MrX 21:04, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

A move would require consensus, and I see a new thread has been started below. BTW, using the MOVE function keeps the history, so in reality it's just a change of title. Everything would continue as usual, but a title change that is more accurate will help to focus editing on what's really relevant. -- BullRangifer (talk) 23:39, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I think we have right here the essence of the conflict that is and is to come. I defined the issue as primary over the person, and its content as the legal conflicts inherent in the freedom of religion and in the fulfilling of the duties of civic office. BullRangifer thought that was a good characterization, and suggested the article is about that very thing, suggesting an article title change as a result. (I agree.) Prhartcom didn't agree (at least not necessarily). I think his key point is that the person "is at the center of the controversy and is causing all of it herself". And what we see here is what the two primary perspectives (points of view) are going to be about the whole matter. For if the issue is the person, the article shouldn't move. And if the issue is the person, then it is indeed because "she is doing it all herself", which amounts to an evaluation that the whole matter does not really concern freedom of religion at all. Now these two points of view are, in effect, a conflict that ones sees all the time in the news. This is just one news story that carries the particular headline, but all such stories reflect a fundamental opposition of opinion over what is and what is not freedom of religion, and often in relation to what is and what is not civic duty. One side characterizes the matter one way, and the other side characterizes it the other way. We at WP cannot decide the outcome of the conflict, of course, nor even influence it particularly. And we also cannot report the outcome, because the conflict is not at all settled, nor is it even likely to be. It's been going on for at least as long as I've lived (above 60 years), and shows every sign of sustaining itself beyond any one person's lifetime. So, we've got to expect that the world is going to continue to deal with matters like this one for quite some time, and that the very unsettled nature of the conflicts themselves are going to unsettle us at WP, especially because we will have the different viewpoints here that reflect the ones out there.

From above, again: "The IPs and non-autoconfirmed are currently walled out, ", and a response "They can be walled out again. No problemo." Sorry folks, I have to say "problemo". The opinions are already inside the wall. I think we need to recognize that, first. Second, I think we need to continue to be respectful and all those things editors bring up after things start getting out of control, but to do so now before things spin out, and in an effort to keep them from spinning out. I don't want to be a person that has fanned any flames. But while I have stated my basic orientation above, I'm not sure how to reconcile what we need to do here with those who have an alternate orientation, because even the WP issues around the article title and focus hinge on those orientations. It would seem that no matter what we do, it will look wrong to someone, and at the moment I don't have what looks like an idea for how to solve that, even while maintaining neutrality of tone and good faith. I wish I did, and if I get a brain storm, I'll certainly let you all know here. Evensteven (talk) 22:37, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Here's a suggestion. Why not leave the article named as it is, but also choose another title named for the issue and make that a redirect? That way, no matter what someone's viewpoint, there's a path to the article that reflects the view. If the article also presents the views, neutrally of course, I see no reason why anyone would have reason to object to coverage of both. The media is going to be making a lot of noise about the reactions of politicians, of course, as everyone want to have a campaign message. I do think the article should work harder at more basic information, as the other stuff will be of highly perishable interest. But when no one can resolve something into one, why not resolve it into something multiple but balanced? Evensteven (talk) 02:56, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

This is a little TL;DR for my ADD brain, so apologies if I've missed something important. I agree this is not a true bio as implied by its current title. She has absolutely no notability outside this issue. I think an issue-related title would be more appropriate, and I think a move is justified, not a redirect which would just sidestep the issue of correct titling. My problem is how to title it without being awkward or unwieldy, and I haven't seen any specific proposals. "Kim Davis controversy"? "Kim Davis same-sex marriage controversy"? "Kim Davis same-sex marriage license controversy"? Something else? ―Mandruss ☎ 03:04, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Mandruss is correct. A title change would be best, and a redirect would just make the change more difficult. The idea of creating redirect(s) is a good idea though. Even multiple redirects is okay, but the article must use the best title. A redirect won't do for that purpose. So let's wait with redirects until we've chosen a title. Then make the move, and make the other suggestions into redirects. Let's start with some suggestions. When we've found one that most accurately describes this topic, and not the person, then we go with that one. I'll start a list below. -- BullRangifer (talk) 04:14, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I added an option that removes her from it. While she is central to it, she seems separate from it, like Obergefell or "Jane Roe". It sounds like they're going to appeal this to SCOTUS, and it's going to be a bigger issue than her. Jerod Lycett (talk) 04:34, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Suggested titles (just add to this list)

Please DO NOT make these into redirects, at least not yet.

1. Kim Davis controversy

2. Kim Davis same-sex marriage controversy

3. Kim Davis same-sex marriage license controversy

4. Kim Davis marriage license controversy

5. Rowan County marriage license controversy

I'm not in love with the current title, nor any of the proposed ones. The Rowan County one is my favorite so far. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 05:15, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Of the current suggestions, I also favor Rowan County. I agree with comments above that the whole matter is bigger than Kim Davis and is taking on a life of its own, which is reason enough alone to change the article title to something not directly attached to her name. Evensteven (talk) 07:48, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

If her story has sparked a wider debate, there's no reason that the scope of this article has to be expanded to cover it. There are other articles that could be updated, like Same-sex marriage in the United States. The part of the story that involves Kim Davis should be in this article. Since she would obviously remain the center of that part, it would still make sense to include her name in the title. ―Mandruss ☎ 10:31, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree. Regardless of where this controversy goes in the future, it will be identified with her, so the new title should still contain her name. I have numbered the current list for easy reference. The first four contain her name. Which of them summarizes the desired content of the article (which must be based on the content of available RS)? I lean toward No. 3. -- BullRangifer (talk) 21:24, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I would suggest a formal move request for this to see what consensus there would be for moving it. As for whether I'd support the move, I'm undecided. I think there's a wider controversy at play as other clerks have been refusing to process marriage licenses, but in terms of the Rowan County clerk's office, it's all Kim Davis' doing. Name change or not, taking "Kim Davis" out of the title is unacceptable simply due to her now very well established notoriety and centrality to the matter. Stevie is the man! 11:04, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

The RM process requires you to specify the exact new name proposed, so we would have to agree on that first. If we can agree on that (i.e. consensus, not necessarily unanimous agreement), I don't think an RM is necessary; we would simply do the move. We have enough editing experience already present to make this decision. If we agree that a new name is in order, but can't reach consensus on the new name, then we could do an RM just to break the stalemate. stalemate. For that I guess we would have to use the most popular proposed name and get a thumbs-up or down on that. (Has anyone ever done an RfC on a title change?). ―Mandruss ☎ 11:11, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

At any rate, there would need to be a point where agreement on the new name is determined. Right now, there is only discussion, and not necessarily all !votes (positions) are registered. Stevie is the man! 11:33, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, let's let this discussion percolate for a day or three and then we could maybe try a local poll. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:00, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

As I have previously said, I am opposed to any move that changes the title, scope, and subject of this article so that it is not longer a biography. That is tantamount to deleting the biography. In any case, a move request would be required as this would be a controversial move that touches on a few different policy areas. - MrX 12:37, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

This is in no way, shape, or form a biography of Kim Davis, and it never will be or should be. That's why the title needs changing. If you feel an RM is an absolute necessity, fine. We still need to decide what title it should propose, and the only efficient way to do that is by a poll. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:11, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I disagree that it's not a biography, and I certainly know what I created and what was discussed at AfD. We started careening down the slippery slope when folks added quotes from the ACLU and ADL, which weighted the article toward being a news event. A RM is the correct process at this point. - MrX 13:36, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Well count me among the benighted. I could have sworn this article was about a woman's defiance of a court order and the resulting shitstorm, not about the woman and her life. We should begin immediately looking for reliably sourced information about her parents, her childhood, what schools she attended, any children, what other jobs she has held, anything significant she has published, any prior controversies or public statements, and so on. We also need to trim at least half of the content about this controversy, as it's only a small part of her life in total. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:48, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, I have trimmed a few things already. We can only cover those aspects of her life that appear in reliable sources, but don't worry, I'm sure she'll write a book soon. - MrX 14:05, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Sheesh, I was being ironic as a literary device. I don't think we should do that, and I don't think that would serve our readers. This woman's life is of no interest to anyone (sorry, Kim, but neither is mine). ―Mandruss ☎ 14:09, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I realize that, and I was going to say something ironic back, like "thank you for your comment, Sir Mandruss, (k)night of the Wiki." ← As you can see, my comment was really not very funny, thus omitted. - MrX 14:19, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

It is a selective biography of Kim Davis. Bus stop (talk) 14:24, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

All encyclopedia biographies are selective by design as we only cover what is notable per our established policies/guidelines. Stevie is the man! 14:31, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

All biographies are selective. That is correct. Misplaced Pages has policies relating to selectivity, as you correctly point out. Bus stop (talk) 15:05, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

In my opinion, the article title should not be about Kim Davis but about the events. My suggestion is for something along the lines of: "Rowan County, Kentucky marriage license controversy". -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 15:50, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Today, if do top 5 a Google search for "Kim Davis", there are more than 15 million results and this article is in the top five search results. A search for Rowan County, Kentucky marriage license controversy yields about 335,000 results and the Misplaced Pages article is not even in the top 100 search results. If we remove her name from the title a lot of potential readers will not even know about this article. I think WP:COMMONNAME would apply.- MrX 16:09, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I vote for deferring discussion about what to call the article until we have decided what the article is. See above. It's not clear to me how much support, if any, MrX has for making this article not about the controversy. I understand that was his original intent, but it wasn't set in stone and it still makes little sense to me. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:58, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

The controversy is obviously the most notable part, and the ONLY thing that makes her remotely notable. Therefore the weight of this biography must go towards great coverage of the controversy, with some background about this woman who started it. Her name must always be in the title; it will always be a biography; and like all articles here, including biographies, anything of significance found in RS is fair game for inclusion. Our biographies are NOT like other bios, simply because our rules for inclusion are different.

Stripped of the controversy, there would be no article about her. Since an AfD (rightly) determined we should keep this article, we should proceed with building it like any other article. BLP applies to all articles, talk pages, and living people, so make sure good sourcing accompanies the necessary inclusion of negative content.

Summary: This is a biography with heavy weight on the controversy. -- BullRangifer (talk) 21:44, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, fellow editors, if this article is about Kim Davis, being a biography and not something else, then I suggest that we need to prove notability. Do we need to resort to a request for deletion? That is certainly the end result if notability fails. Personally, I think the article itself should be retained, but not as a biography, because Kim Davis is notable only for this stand she is taking, and that event is the notable thing (and needs its article). Evensteven (talk) 18:27, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

It just passed AfD by a wide margin a few days ago, and I imagine it will again. Submitting again so soon is generally frowned upon anyway. Stevie is the man! 18:32, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think trying to get the article deleted would be disruptive in the extreme, as it easily passes notability as a bio, even more so than it did when someone tried to delete it five days ago. Feel free to start a move discussion if you think the article should be moved to another title.- MrX 18:33, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

My point is not to get the article deleted, as I said above. My point is that it is not a biography, because if it were, and if the AfD had been about the notability of Kim Davis alone, then it ought to have failed that AfD. My point is that it passed the AfD because of the notability of the event, which is what I stated above. I recognize your opinions on the matter, as I did from the start, and as I stated above, there are at least two types of opinions in the world roughly based on "this is all about Kim Davis" and "this is about freedom of religion", and those opinions exist here on WP too. But neither your opinions nor mine are something either of us can prove, nor can they really be reconciled (because of the divergent underlying viewpoints they represent). I'm willing to consider an article name change, and there are others who would also. I'm not willing to be a divisive factor among the editing community here, though, and I guarantee that a name change poll/proposal would be divisive. We are therefore back to my suggestion above that we consider supporting two names, one as is, the "event" name as a redirect, and write the article about both person and event, which is pretty much what has been going on, without undue strife. What do you think now? Evensteven (talk) 18:46, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Let me say also that I feel this suggestion serves all interests, and stands the best chance for producing the best possible article because of that. The multiple viewpoints all deserve to be presented, and the divergence of opinion is the whole reason there is so much controversy in the first place. No article "purified" to one perspective could represent what either the person or the event means. Evensteven (talk) 18:54, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

It sounds like there are more points that we agree on than disagree on. I support an article about the events, and I think it should include the other counties in Kentucky, and perhaps the US, that have followed suit. I support redirects to this article from any of the other titles proposed on this page. Redirects are very uncontroversial. Whether they will help readers find the article is speculative, but it can't hurt.- MrX 19:02, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Why is it not a biography? Included in the article is background on her pay history, how she got the job, her marriages and a few other points of close relevance to the same-sex marriage certificates at the center of the story. This is a biography that focusses on her relation to an important moment. She has been vocal and this is captured in audio and visual in the county clerk's office with both her supporters and the opposition vocalizing. True, it is not a well-rounded biography but it is an approximation of a biography. Bus stop (talk) 19:47, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree that we have more points in common than not. I also thought the redirect approach would prove to raise fewer concerns, and it works to get a person to the place they're looking for. And I haven't said the article isn't a biography, but that a biography article needs sufficient notability of the person to keep from being deleted, and that the article was not deleted because its notability was not particularly that of the person. So, my idea is that the article can become a hybrid, which it already is in fact, and can serve both purposes at one time. MrX does have a point in that the "event" is not so singular, and another point that an issue article about the wider aspects of that issue, and all its related events, would seem to be a good idea. I would suggest that that wider "issue" article can exist side-by-side with this one, however, even if this one is treated as a biography/event/issue hybrid, and the subject of this article would restrict itself naturally to the aspects of the issue that revolve around Kim Davis's actions. WP has plenty of article overlaps already, with some serving a wider topic area and some more focused on a more detailed topic. Why not? Evensteven (talk) 20:19, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Another point about notability. An otherwise unnotable person can sometimes take actions and start chains of events that are highly notable, and bring that person into the limelight. Surely everyone can agree that that is the case here!? To me, this also argues for the inseparability of person and event, and the need to treat both in the article, explicitly, and consciously. Evensteven (talk) 20:26, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

This is a biography with heavy weight on the controversy. Our bios are different from bios elsewhere. See my comment above. -- BullRangifer (talk) 21:49, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Lead usage

General heads up, someone is not using the lead correctly. It should only summarize body content, per WP:LEAD. "Apart from basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article." I'm not sure exactly what it means by "basic facts", but I'm pretty confident that doesn't include "while Rowan County Attorney Cecil Watkins dismissed her argument", which is currently in the lead but not the body. I'll be fixing that if no one beats me to it, as well as verifying the rest. Please be more attentive to this.

As a further by-the-way, information sourced in the body should not be redundantly sourced in the lead; thus, there should be very few citations in the lead. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:34, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree. I moved some content to the body of the article. - MrX 13:52, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Good points. Ideally a lead doesn't need any refs, but for contentious matter it sometimes saves grief to just do it, especially after numerous blank-blanks keep adding cn tags, instead of reading the article. I'm a big fan of keeping leads clean, and using only the short <ref name=blah> named ref format in the lead. That ensures that the full ref MUST be used in the body first, and the lead is very easy to edit. -- BullRangifer (talk) 20:39, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Speaking of leads, I wrote an essay a few years ago. You're welcome to take a look: Misplaced Pages:How to create and manage a good lead section. -- BullRangifer (talk) 20:39, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, with everyone. Unique sources in the lead should be unnecessary for backing of the material, but putting duplicate references to some of the same sources saves editing troubles sometimes. In any case, when people have troubles believing what they see, the extra pointer can help guide them to see where stuff came from. The key is that most of the time, they are duplicate references. Notes leading to a specific section can also be provided to give full access to details. Evensteven (talk) 21:14, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Eugene Volokh Article?

Has anyone seen the Eugene Volokh article in the Washington Post? Here's the link ]. I think this would provide a balanced counterpoint to the Kentucky Trial Court Review perspective.

How about something along the lines of: Conversely Eugene Volokh, noted law professor, argues that the Kentucky Religious Freedom Restoration Act obligates the state to accommodate Kim Davis' religious requirements, unless denying them is the least restrictive means of serving a compelling government interest. While licenses must be issued, state courts have authority under the RFRA to authorise a modification such as the substitution of the authorising deputies name, or a title e.g. Rowan County, instead of Kim Davis' name thereby freeing her of the burden of appearing to condone same-sex unions. Can this be made more succinct? The noted law professor part is possibly non-standard however I think who or what Volokh is needs to be established to counterweight the apparent weight of the "Kentucky Trial Court Review" - a Facebook post rather than an academic journal article. 人族 (talk) 14:17, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

It's not an article, it's an op-ed. From what I've seen above the KTC Review is subscribed to by many lawyers as a newsletter, making it closer to a journal than any newspaper article. Also, it's not just the review that has said anything, try to gather actual articles. Jerod Lycett (talk) 14:37, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Fine an op-ed by a highly respected member of the legal profession. Does that make it of less value than the KTCR Facebook quote that has been repeated in multiple articles including the Salon post referenced here? Please feel free to explain how it fails WP:RS. 人族 (talk) 15:33, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

It's not RS that's the issue, it's about WP:WEIGHT. The Review has been cited multiple times in other RS articles. We don't post things just to "balance". See WP:GEVAL. Also, it's not a post in Salon, it is an article. Now please stop your disruptive WP:SOAPboxing. If you have something constructive to add, then add that. Also, I see nothing to point to him being respected let alone highly respected. Jerod Lycett (talk) 16:18, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

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