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Hey LB, I think this FAC is ready to be promoted, but wanted your feedback. (Does the @FAC ping no longer work?) Also would I still need to wait two weeks after a successful nom to nominate another ready, peer reviewed article? czar 15:24, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

@Czar: My apologies—it does work but I have not had the opportunity to go through the list since I saw your note. You can always nominate another article right after a successful promotion. If you have one ready now, you can go ahead an list it since it doesn't appear you have outstanding comments at Knight Lore. --Laser brain (talk) 15:35, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Request reconsideration of comments at AE

Respectfully request at AE a reconsideration of your comments at AE. I have recently completed my statement, at your urging adding a thorough explanation of the reported edits. Sincerely, no topic ban violation or boundary testing was intended. Respectfully request good faith consideration of the context of a re-focus of my volunteer work in the area of climate change. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:43, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Question about TBAN scope

Laser brain, you were involved with this recent ARE . I think the editor in question has again violated the TBAN but I also think my recent frustration with his various edits and behavior may cloud my judgment. Thus I'm asking this as a sanity check and based on a suggestion here . Please note after asking Dennis, I asked Bishonen who wasn't sure. Two edits to the Exxon Mobil article were made by the editor in question almost immediately after the related ARE was closed, . These edits seem very similar to and include the same article as edits identified by another admin as violations , . The ARE topic block was expanded: "I am enacting Dennis Brown's topic ban extension, and explicitly expanding it to include addressing conservative politics on non-conservative-politics articles." As a sanity check would you read the new edits as likely violations? Thanks Springee (talk) 15:33, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Laser brain, having discussed the issue with the editor below, do you feel this is something that should be reviewed further? The editor is still active on the ExxonMobil climate change talk page and has been editing in a way that is not conducive to consensus building. Springee (talk) 00:18, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Springee's project, continued

Thank you for notifying me of the ongoing campaigning; I was not pinged into the notice. Sorry you have been dragged into this. I'm vexxed, too, and have been for going on a year now. I was sure by now every Wikipedian was aware of Springee's long history with their project of sanctioning HughD. For background, forgive me if you are already familiar, please see for example:

1. 23 August 2015 3RR User:HughD reported by User:Springee (Result: declined)
2. 14 September 2015 ANI filing by Scoobydunk Reporting user:Springee for Hounding and Tendentious editing; to avoid sanction, Springee proposed a "voluntary" interaction ban
3. 24 March 2016 ANI Springee campaigning
4. 25 March 2016 ANI Proposed Interaction Ban between Springee and HughD; uninvolved colleagues propose an interaction ban; to avoid sanction, Springee proposed a "voluntary" interaction ban
5. 11 April 2016 vexatious report of Canadian think tank as violation under AP2

I take to heart all advice offered by colleagues; if only some of my colleagues took a similar mature attitude.

• 18 October 2015 Callanecc asked Springee to cease harassment:

You need to avoid this in the future, I can't see how you would have found this unless you were monitoring Hugh's edits. Therefore stop doing that and avoid commenting on Hugh's edits.

Springee has been reminded of this multiple times sadly to no avail.

Respectfully, a reminder: I am banned from recent conservative American politics; I am not banned from climate change or politics or topics that some may consider political, which is of course all topics. Last winter our arbitration committee cleaned up and consolidated areas of dispute; they may be interested in a case which might provide a basis for further consolidation by subsuming climate change under American politics, or perhaps clarifying that conservative politics is subsumed under politics.

Springee brings two specific edits at ExxonMobil to your attention claiming they demand administrative action. First, please understand the important context of Springee contacting you: their relentless project to sanction HughD. Next, please understand the context of this particular article, that Springee followed me, to ExxonMobil, then followed me to the POV split ExxonMobil climate change controversy, then harassed me with such vigor that ExxonMobil climate change controversy became his top edited article! Next, recognize that my area of interest, climate, the term "denial" is often vandalized, and the intention of my edits was to revert one such vandalism. Please note my edit made no reference to conservative American politics in any way. Please note I called on the Mother Jones source to hopefully help prevent additional future vandalism. Finally, please note that my reversion of the vandalism was an improvement to the article, as witnessed by to date withstanding community scrutiny. Bottom line, only the most obsessed user could think these two edits worthy of anyone's time or attention.

I am proud of my article space focus, my good articles, all my edits, and in particular my superb edit summaries, and my exemplary participation and focus on content in article talk page discussions. Despite continued following and harassment, I am attempting to head advice and conform to an interaction ban to the extent possible; please understand, Springee believes all my contributions are disruptive and ban-worthy. I have at all times been civil and never been disruptive. All of my edits are good faith improvements to our encyclopedia and respectful of the topic ban; I respectfully request specific diffs of edits you feel are not, and an opportunity to discuss and self-revert.

Thank you again. Hugh (talk) 19:05, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

@HughD: So, just as a thought exercise, if for no other reason, I would like you to attempt to modify the above, removing all references to Springee and their actions. Then, I would like you to address my specific points. I recognize that everything can be considered political if one pushes the imagination. Let's not include this particular fallacy, and let's focus on what I asked about. --Laser brain (talk) 00:39, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

You seem rather dismissive of my reply which I assure you is sincere and thoughtful. As requested I have explained the two edits in good faith above; there is no topic ban violation. May I respectfully suggest a measured appropriate response to this report on your talk page: you could help everyone involved were you to remind Springee of our harassment policy, in particular "The prohibition against harassment applies equally to all Wikipedians" WP:HARASS; remind Springee to focus on content and not editors WP:FOC; request Springee to kindly limit reports to edits that harm the encyclopedia WP:HERE. Or, you could take a hint from the other admins Springee shopped this transgression around to and beg off. Or, Springee needs an admin for his project, you could be his guy if you want. Up to you bro. BTW Sklar rules. Thanks. Hugh (talk) 00:55, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

@HughD: I'm dismissive of the parts of the reply that deflect my questions into a discussion of Springee's behavior. You mistake the purpose of my request for you to refocus your thoughts. It's not that I don't care about Springee's behavior—it's that I didn't ask about it and it has no bearing on whether you need to be sanctioned. Instead of inserting politically charged sources into controversial articles and fighting with the same belligerents, why don't you go bring Leland Sklar up to a decent standard? I'm betting even Springee won't follow you over there. --Laser brain (talk) 11:33, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

"whether you need to be sanctioned" I get it, ok? you are an admin & I am not, you need not orient the mop cocked above my skull as we discuss.

"fighting" I am not fighting with anyone. I am at all times civil and focused on content. Civil disagreement on content is not fighting. Requesting comment is dispute resolution, not fighting. I am a humble content creator; my article space % is 68. If you are working yourself up to a sanction for battleground, I respectfully request we move to a venue where our community can assess your interpretation of specific diffs, in proper context: I am being followed; if that is irrelevant to you, fine, but we may need to widen this discussion. Thank you.

I will include an atypical more personal note, since you & I may be the only two Wikipedians to actually own a "Section" album. I am a volunteer. Life is short, perhaps you are also aware if you are old enough to know who Sklar is. All of my edits are only after careful consideration of where I can do the most good toward improving the encyclopedia. I would pitch in at Sklar, but I can't take the lead. It needs work. No mention of his sound. Thanks. Hugh (talk) 16:46, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

@HughD: I think you'll find that I'm quite a reasonable administrator and I certainly didn't mean to hang sanctions over your head. I'd rather have a discussion with someone than reach for the block button, hence why we're here having a discussion. I only asked you to talk about your edits. I can see for myself the history of interaction between you and Springee. As for Sklar, sources are difficult to find. As with many unsung session musicians, he's both everywhere and nowhere. --Laser brain (talk) 17:17, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Ok, more general comments on my edits, in response to your observation, "you jumped from one topic area under DS to another (climate change)" You've been around long enough to remember the pre-DS era. Many editors avoid DS areas altogether. I don't blame them. I can testify attempting to improve the neutrality of articles in DS areas is higher stakes. An unfortunate unintended consequence of this is that many articles calcified in extraordinarily non-neutral state; many articles in DS areas need work. Improving articles in DS areas is nothing to be afraid of if one can simply maintain civility and focus on content. Hope this helps. Thanks. Hugh (talk) 18:04, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Hugh, you say above that "All of my edits are good faith improvements to our encyclopedia." Could you please explain this edit in that context? In that edit, you copied verbatim my "areas of interest" section from my userpage. This appeared to me to be harassment, specifically "Harassment can include actions calculated to be noticed by the target and clearly suggestive of targeting them, where no direct communication takes place." It seemed particularly odd since I've not ever observed you to make edits to celebrity pages. I didn't bring up your edit at the time because I was attempting to ignore you so you would hopefully begin to do the same to me. I only bring it up here to remind observers that your self-described martyr-like career as a Wikipedian has more nuance to it than you've suggested. Safehaven86 (talk) 18:24, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Very clever. Extremely subtle. + 100. At least you're not attempting to deny harassing me, you're just doubling down (while accusing other users of harassing you--quelle horreur!) Safehaven86 (talk) 22:06, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Copyright

I do not know which is copyright and which is free. How can I dishistinguish between them? Can I use the reference or not?PhysicsScientist (talk) 02:39, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Thank you.PhysicsScientist (talk) 03:31, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Help please

Hi Laser brain,

You kindly closed this AE request Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive190#Monochrome_Monitor about 10 days ago.

The editor has come back to the same page with some continued unusual behaviour:

(1) Modern Hebrew 04:12, 2 May 2016: Without warning or discussion, reverts the same bulk changes that were subject to the AE.

(2) Talk:Modern Hebrew 07:50, 2 May 2016: Angrily removes a talk page post discussing addition of the ARBPIA tag.

(3) Talk:Modern Hebrew 08:16, 2 May 2016: After being told that removing talk page threads is unacceptable, the editor removes the same again.

Please could you let me know how you think I should proceed here? The editor does not wish to discuss, and continues to be highly aggressive in their behaviour.

Oncenawhile (talk) 08:26, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

@Oncenawhile: I already said in the AE filing that this article doesn't fall under ARBPIA. So you are being disruptive by adding it to the Talk page and then edit warring to keep it there. If you keep that up, you are more likely to be blocked than Monochrome Monitor. As for your other problems, you are expected to resolve your conflicts like everyone else, using appropriate steps at Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution as needed. I have no interest in getting involved in the topic area, but I will be monitoring the article for further disruption. --Laser brain (talk) 13:28, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Where did you say that at the AE? I cannot see it?

The question of whether this topic should fall under ARBPIA has not been discussed anywhere that I am aware of. All I expect is that proper consensus is built around this question.

Oncenawhile (talk) 14:44, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

@Oncenawhile: I commented at the bottom of the AE filing that discretionary sanctions do not apply to the article. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. ARBPIA was meant to be broad, so there are bound to be articles that fall into grey areas, but I don't think this is even remotely related to the Arab–Israeli conflict. If you think it is, the burden is on you to establish such consensus on the article Talk page before adding templates. --Laser brain (talk) 16:11, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Ok, thanks Laser brain. I would like to do that. But my attempt to do so has been removed twice - the editor seems to think it's ok to remove other people's talk page threads. So not only will the other editor not discuss with me, they won't even let me discuss with others. Oncenawhile (talk) 16:50, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

@Oncenawhile: He was correct to remove the ARBPIA template as disputed. He was wrong to remove your remarks. --Laser brain (talk) 00:10, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Explanation please, redux

Explanation please

Hugh, as you're probably aware, Springee has left messages for various admins who were involved in your last AE report asking us to examine your recent edits at ExxonMobil. His message to me is here. I'm vexxed, frankly, and I have trouble understanding why you don't believe you are continuing to play around the edges of your TBAN. You received good advice in the last AE report that although you are not editing politics articles, the nature of your edits is political. I fully agree with this assessment. You also received explicit advice from Ricky81682 that inserting a source such as Mother Jones into articles is political in and of itself. Your TBAN aside, you jumped from one topic area under DS to another (climate change) and politically driven edits to those topics are troubling on their own. My inclination is to block you but I'd like to hear your side. --Laser brain (talk) 17:31, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

   If you could, @Laser brain:, please take a look on the automobile safety talk page. Same thing going on, I think. Anmccaff (talk) 21:30, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

I appended this bit above to your message on @HughD:'s talkpage, Hugh "responded", and yes, them scare quotes belong, by blanking both our messages. Could you take a look at this, please? Anmccaff (talk) 21:42, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

@Anmccaff: I'm tired of dealing with him, to be honest. If you believe he's violating his topic ban, please open a report at WP:AE for wider input. --Laser brain (talk) 00:11, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Reger Requiem

Should I have pushed the reviewers to switch from comment to support? Reger's centenary of death is next week. What's next? I have no experience with a failed nomination, - would like to see it as TFA on 16 July, centenary of the premiere, as Brian knows. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:12, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: Generally I will prod reviewers for declarations if I feel they are close, but your reviewers were outlining more substantial issues that I don't feel were moving toward resolution. Based on the feedback you got, I think you will need to work on the prose, perhaps with an independent copyeditor, before renominating. I have not reviewed the article—just assessed consensus based on the comments you got. --Laser brain (talk) 23:29, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

I am sorry not to understand, because prose was not even mentioned. To my knowledge, I dealt with every concern. Could you be more precise? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:37, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: When multiple reviewers mention prose issues without supporting, they are generally indicative of further problems that should be addressed with a copyeditor. Jim, Wehwalt, Jaguar, and Lingzhi all mentioned writing issues, along with "there are places where the text is perhaps a bit clunky or wordy" from Jim. You might consider a Peer Review or just have an independent copyeditor go over it for remaining issues, and then renominate. --Laser brain (talk) 00:24, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

I requested at GOCE and asked Corinne who had copyedited the article in a previous state. I don't care about the star but want to have the article in best possible shape by 11 May (as expressed in the nomination). As both requests might not get a fast reply, you perhaps may want want to go over it yourself? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:18, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

ps: In invite Jim, Wehwalt, Jaguar and Lingzhi to informally let me know what outstanding issues could be fixed. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:28, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

While it's a fine article, I did not feel the prose was up to FA standards and did not feel I could fix it in the context of a FAC. Had there been a copyedit, I would have resumed the review, and will be happy to review it in full once the prose is up to snuff.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:53, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Wehwalt, I did not understand that from your review, sorry, may be my lack of language. I saw specific items to which I responded. What did I misunderstand? - Corinne copyedited now. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:45, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

I did not actually want to say that in the middle of a FAC. But I was spending much time working through prose. Under such circumstances I often step back and await developments (and supports).--Wehwalt (talk) 14:44, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

I rather need direct open communication. Sorry I am bad in mind-reading. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:57, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: I don't have time to do a full review of this article, but just a quick glance at once section reveals a lot of issues. With due respect to the GOCE, it needs quite a bit more than a surface proofreading. There are basic problems with how the article is written, and I feel it will need significant rewriting before it is at FA standard. I started reading at "Sections". Here are some random pot-shots:

• "reminiscent of the openings of Bach's St John Passion and St Matthew Passion" This is not supported by the source cited. The source mentions that the text "Wenn ich einmal soll scheiden" is similar to St Matthew, but you're writing about the pedal point here. I think you have misinterpreted the source.
• "In a pattern strikingly similar to the beginning of A German Requiem, the bass notes are repeated, here on an extremely low D, lower even than the opening of Wagner's Das Rheingold on E-flat." You have cited the score as a source here. You can't make an analysis and comparison here without citing a secondary source. Also, can we be more precise than "extremely low D"? That is a subjective term and we can say exactly which D it is.
• "In the autograph, Reger wrote the many necessary ledger lines (rather than using the symbol an octave lower), perhaps in order to stress the depth." Again, there is no citation here other than to the score, so this is your own speculation. We can't do that—we need a secondary source to speculate why Reger used the notation he did.
• "on a melody as simple as a chorale" Unclear as to what this means.
• "in a fashion reminiscent of Heinrich Schütz." The source cited doesn't seem to mention this. Schütz is mentioned a few times in the paper, but I don't see where it compares this section directly.
• The way you cited the FitzGibbon paper is inconsistent. In one citation, you listed the page number as "16,25" which I'm taking to mean page 16 of the PDF which is actually page 35 of the paper. Another citation is simply to "17" which doesn't follow that pattern.

These are just from two paragraphs, so I suspect there is a lot of work to do in checking sources, making sure they are accurately represented, and then thoroughly editing the prose. --Laser brain (talk) 11:23, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for looking, I am on my way out but will try to respond later. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:40, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Back: I have little time, because until Reger's centenary of death in three days, I want to improve both his biography (which came with a refimprove-tag until last week), the list of his works and the major work Der 100. Psalm. Therefore only general remarks. Similar questions came up in the GA review and the FAC, and the GA review of Requiem (Fauré), with Tim riley, - perhaps look there also.

Speaking of music compares to speaking about a painting or a book. For a book, the plot section doesn't need any source but the book itself (as far as I understand). In this case, the source is the score, with the first page of the manuscript even pictured, showing the ledger lines and which low D that is, D1 in scientific pitch notation. That is low, objectively so, but I am afraid that a reader who doesn't read the music would not be helped by that information either. - I asked Brian if I have to source that the Mozart Requiem is in D minor and the Brahms Requiem has a pedal point on F in the beginning, - but don't recall an answer. These familiar works are mentioned to explain the unfamiliar by comparison. Of course the article could live without such help, but I also might decide I better leave it helpful and without FA star. - On the Main page right now: "DYK ... that Max Reger dedicated Der Einsiedler to conductor Philipp Wolfrum and his choir, but they performed the premiere only after the composer's death, together with his Requiem? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:57, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

(←) I'd like to say that User:Laser_brain has made excellent comments above. Commenting about the nature of a work based on your reading of its score, for example, is obviously WP:OR. I should have looked closely (as he did) at these connections between the article and the sources, but alas I did not. Sorry. I did copy edit one section for you. Unless I am mistaken (which happens often), you frequently have problems with German "time-manner-place" versus English "place/manner, time". You also have problems with "coherence" (e.g., sentence order, keeping like topics together, connecting ideas to text above/below, etc.). But as Laser brain said, WP:OR is a deal-breaker, whereas as sentence order is much more amenable to repair... I have to go to sleep now...   Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 14:18, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

You are right, both, about OR, only I am not aware that I said anything about the nature of the work which the score doesn't tell anybody looking there or at the image of the manuscript. If I did without intention, I could have dropped such things, but I would have needed to be told. If I was required to source that Mozart's Requiem is in D minor, or Bach's Passions begin with a pedal point, I could have done that easily (still thinking that such a ref would be clutter), but I received no answer.

• To the above: removed the Bach Passions (although it could be sourced that they both begin with a pedal point).
• removed "extremely", added the D1. - The comparison to Brahms is cited, the one to Rheingold is in the same source, mentioned for the Latin Requiem (p 13), also it's no interpretation, just saying that D is lower than E-flat (by alphabet).
• "perhaps"-phrase dropped
• "on a melody as simple as a chorale" was copyedited several times, says right now "simple melody" (not by me), as opposed to a more operatic melody one might expect from a soloist, - one note per syllable, simple intervals, as a look at the music shows.
• Ref: "the solo quartet, chorus, orchestra, and organ act as four separate “Klangapparate” in a way evocative of Schütz and the polychoral style." (p 13)
• Page numbers given are those of the pdf, in the first case it's on two pages. They could also be consistently the numbers of the paper if preferred. I chose the others because they are more easily seen on top.

Next time: please let me know sooner. There will probably be not be a next time for this piece. I kind of needed the work for private mourning, but probably should have rather created 30 stubs on some of his other compositions. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:27, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: Just as an aside, I've never had a problem with using a primary source (the score) for things that are obvious like the key or tempo—as long as we get it right. I wish I had a dollar for every pop song article I've seen where the editor used the sheet music to cite the key, but got it wrong because they didn't understand relative minors or how to read music. Once we cross into interpretation and analysis ("in the style of" an so on), we need secondary sources. --Laser brain (talk) 15:44, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Fine, so we both agree in general. Is there - after I made some changes according to your comments - any "interpretation" left that is not sourced to a secondary source? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:48, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Today:

• ... that among the late works by Max Reger are a fragment of a Latin Requiem and the Hebbel Requiem?
• ... that Max Reger had the proofs of his eight-part motet Der Mensch lebt und bestehet open next to his bed when he was found dead on 11 May 1916? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:50, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Track listing

Hello. Are you sure about the track listing? I've read about plot, but nothing on WP:ALBUMS styles guides suggests track listing are free from needing sources. I know for films it's a matter of watching a film to state whether the plot is accurate or not, but it's not so simple for singles. For me, it sounds like not having to reference a home video section for a film because "oh just buy every copy!" Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:53, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Suggestion on FAC, please

Our review processes (all of them) are pretty much dictated by the interests of any given reviewers. Sports and entertainment are big everywhere. I had an FLC fail last year pretty much for lack of interest. And I think I'm not the only one this happens to. However, I have Margaret Lea Houston at FAC and would really prefer it not fail for lack of interest, which looks to be a good possibility at the moment. Other than this post, can you offer suggestions on what I can do to keep this nomination from dying? — Maile (talk) 23:44, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

@Maile66: Ironically, sports and entertainment articles have not been very popular at FAC. See any pro wrestling, auto racing, or pop music nomination in the list at any given time. I would first advise you not to despair, as we don't seriously look at archiving nominations for lack of interest until they are at least 3-4 weeks old. If we see something lingering without review for too long, we will generally add it to the Urgents list which can attract attention. Other than posting at relevant WikiProjects, I find that most FAC nominators attract interest and good will by performing reviews on other nominations, and sometimes by making use of the Peer Review process prior to nomination and inviting interested editors to comment in a lower-stakes environment. Hope this helps! --Laser brain (talk) 00:07, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. — Maile (talk) 00:10, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Impactguru - Suggestion for restoring please

The page I created for Impactguru was never intended to be a promotion. I have been following them for last six months and think that they should be on the list of crowdfunding websites. I have contributed a lot of times and they are the only ones in India who sends you a report about the funds usage. They might not be leading, which I should not have written and I take that back. Promotion was never the intention. Misplaced Pages is for knowledge and I think people visiting the page should know about upcoming sites as well. Especially offbeatr is on the list while its defunct. Please guide me how to edit content so that its not a promotion and please restore the page quickly. Let me know. Akansharathi (talk) 05:51, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

a question

I'm curious. Squeamish Ossifrage Opposed baleen whale, but you promoted it. Was there a reason why? Tks.  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 04:04, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

It's my job to weigh consensus for promotion and consider actionable opposes. Multiple editors were involved with addressing SO's concerns, and numerous attempts were made to follow up with him, which went unanswered. If a reviewer never revisits their comments or declaration, I have to do my best to consider whether to promote over their opposition. Since I had at least two other reviewers looking at the sources, I felt it was a reasonable course of action. --Laser brain (talk) 04:28, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

the reason I stopped commenting was 'cause I was waiting to see what would happen with Squeamish Ossifrage's comments. But I guess that was the wrong tack to take. I'll do it differently next time. It's OK. Tks, and Later  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 05:18, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Battleground issues

I wrestled on where to ask about this example, so I think I'll leave it off the RfC talk page for now and also invite The Wordsmith here. First, thanks for cracking down on the aspersions issue. Besides that and imposing a word limit, the other main issue needing admin supervision for the RfC is just the overall personalization towards editors and battleground behavior that pops up in this topic. After David Tornheim's post on Jimbo's page, that seems to have encouraged another editor involved in the dispute to go on to respond saying "KingofAces has made changes to this encyclopedia that should make you shudder. . ."

As I've said before, I'm more interested in ignoring wrangling with various behavior issues at least until the RfC is done and leave it up to you two to decide what to do. However, using that as an example, do you two think there's anything more we can add to the RfC rules to actively discourage that kind of personalization? Otherwise, do you think we've done our due diligence with the setup where anyone engaging in this behavior can already be considered amply warned (obviously even though it should be common sense not to)? Many editors you two have encountered here have been previously warned for this behavior even though it has persisted for years in the background, so I just wanted to make sure you two were aware of that this is likely to pop up given the history. If either of you think there's something worth adding, I'd be willing to find some wording to strengthen and maybe discuss on the talk page detached from the above example. Asking this on the RfC page with that example might have just inflamed things more. Thanks. Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:37, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

At a certain point, I don't think more words are going to help. The most effective deterrent I can think of is being judicious about warning and removing editors with behavioral issues. The Wordsmith 16:47, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, my thoughts are pretty much the same at this point. I was mainly curious how either of you plan to tackle it, so that sounds plenty reasonable at this point. I probably won't bother with proposing additional changes in that regard. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:11, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

I agree with The Wordsmith. Actions will be important, as each user is well aware of what constitutes acceptable behavior. --Laser brain (talk) 22:14, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

It looks like this example above did spiral out of control and now Petrarchan doubling down at the RfC page and continuing the personal attacks after your warning. Sorry that you and The Wordsmith are having to deal with this much drama, but it's unfortunately only a taste of what us regulars have had to try to sort through. You two are doing a huge service though.

I've had to be really careful not to cross the line while still being able to respond to some behavior issues creeping in. I'm going to keep trying to ignore Petrachan at this point. Just for reference, the paper Petrarchan references directly commented on some individual studies and also commented on the broader literature. For some reason, Petrarchan keeps denying the later half (even though we had talk page consensus for it) to the point it goes beyond a content dispute calling me a liar, etc.

With all this in mind, I'm about at the point of asking for a one-way interaction ban (due to one-way antagonism) given their history at ArbCom. I know those can be tricky to enforce sometimes though. I don't edit in other topics they frequent, though I guess a topic-ban might create less ambiguity too. Just wanted to let you know I'm open to the interaction ban option if you're considering something along those lines, but I'd mostly just like to see this behavior stop one way or another. If you've got something in mind besides a ban, that would be great too. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:44, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

King is not speaking truth, and this is important as it is the very crux of the issue here. Just for reference, the paper Petrarchan references directly commented on some individual studies and also commented on the broader literature. For some reason, Petrarchan keeps denying the later half...

Shortly after I complained on the talk page about his edit, Trypto made a change to the article, saying" we should not imply that Panchin actually analyzed every study. I think the wording KofA added does have a flaw in that regard, and I am going to correct it now." King did not object.

From the talk page section, Tsavage notes, "After attempting to verify Kingofaces43's addition by reading the source, it seems entirely misrepresentative ... make clear what they're trying to support with their six-study review. Let's avoid the OR of nuancing degrees of...extrapolation, as Tryptofish put it, and either say what the study did as far as actual research, or say what conclusion it wants to infer from that research. The latter, that therefore ALL studies are (likely) invalid, is an exceptional claim. The former is that they looked at six studies."

To put it simply, this was a very weak paper for the claim being made: that literally all GMO feeding studies that have shown any cause for concern have been debunked. The gravity of this intentional misrepresentation was not lost on the editors at the page, and I hope the continued misrepresentation of facts here on this talk page is not lost on those who have volunteered to help sort out these ongoing problems. petrarchan47คุก 06:36, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Petrarchan47 makes an excellent case. I strongly suggest the hostile, poorly conceived warning on their page (currently being questioned by other editors) be struck through and King's attempts to shut down discussion be ignored. The issues being brought here are highly notable. Jusdafax 07:01, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Sample

Roughly 30 seconds into this song (NSFW) your name gets mentioned. The Quixotic Potato (talk) 10:45, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Some stroopwafels for you!

I have learned a key lesson in grammar today. Thanks, my friend. SilverAlcantara (talk) 09:20, 30 May 2016 (UTC)