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Revision as of 00:56, 21 November 2016

This is an archive of past discussions about Donald Trump. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Errors by user Robotic131225189311

1. This edit is clearly incorrect per source and 1RR prevents me from fixing it. 2. @Robotic131225189311: Please refer to the ArbCom remedies template near the top of this page. In short, you can't simply re-revert here. Even without the remedies, we don't resolve editing disagreements by revert and edit summary between two editors; that is what the article talk page is for. Thank you. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:29, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

@Mandruss:  Done - Ryk72 09:11, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, but only partly done. I still dispute this edit, and the editsum shows cluelessness as to WP:DUE and WP:LEAD. ―Mandruss ☎ 09:18, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Ah! I wondered why so much fuss over an extra 's'. Hopefully fixed now. - Ryk72 09:22, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Is correcting violations of the ArbCom restrictions exempt from 1RR? If so, I could have saved you the trouble. If not, you violated 1RR to save me from committing that egregious offense (thanks yet again). Anyone? Bueller? ―Mandruss ☎ 09:25, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

I don't believe that it is exempt. It's arguable whether it should be; I can see good reasons for both exempt & not. I am relying on the definition of "revert" at WP:3RR - An edit or a series of consecutive edits that undoes other editors' actions—whether in whole or in part—counts as a revert. - As my edits were consecutive, they are one revert. Of course, I'm happy to plead my case at WP:AE if anyone feels so inclined. - Ryk72 11:25, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

This makes no sense. Even if it were appropriate for the lead, it's awkwardly worded and haphazardly placed without regard for chronology. Not happening. Doc talk 10:24, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Ok. So he's reinstated the same bit of crap for the 3rd time within 24 hours. Can we get a block for 1RR violation and can someone remove it? It's sloppy and completely undue for the lead. Embarrassingly bad. Doc talk 10:43, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

• This edit is also worrying. Thoughts on a 1RR exemption based on WP:BLPDELETE? - Ryk72 11:42, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

It is absolutely unacceptable. This editor needs to be blocked. Now. Doc talk 11:45, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

This could be a first, me completely agreeing with Doc. This is not the kind of article where aggressive incompetence even after warnings and corrections can be tolerated, and a DE complaint at ANI should not be required. Is Bishonen in the house by any chance? ―Mandruss ☎ 11:54, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

(As surprising this may seem to some, not every single "Trump supporter" is a knuckle-dragging, xenophobic, misogynistic, racist, LGBQT-hatin', wall-worshipping, inbred cretin. I'm honored that we can agree on some things. Huzzah!) Doc talk 07:51, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

I had no idea you are a "Trump supporter", and I honestly don't categorize editors that way anyway. I categorize them according to whether they are supporters of Misplaced Pages policy, process, and good faith collaboration. None of which is a comment about you either way. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:03, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

One foot out the door, but I'll look at it when I get back. Bishonen | talk 12:04, 10 November 2016 (UTC).

I kind of wish somebody had warned the user about edit warring sooner, and about the 1RR restriction rather than just the usual 3RR warning. But I see they have continued to revert, at least a fourth time, after being warned, so I've blocked for 31 hours. Also they should be alerted to the discretionary sanctions for American politics and BLP, I've done that. Nobody had pointed them specifically to the restrictions at the top of this talkpage, on their own page, which is always a good idea as soon as it looks like a new user (= new to the page) is unaware of them. (I've done it now.) You can say they ought to read the warnings at the top of the page without having to be told to, but in practice I don't think we expect that. There's a daunting and off-putting amount of stuff at the top of the page. (I'm glad somebody at least collapsed the wikiprojects, but still.) And who knows if they ever looked at the talkpage? So, only the short 3RR block for now. Bishonen | talk 13:22, 10 November 2016 (UTC).

See my opening comment here. With respect, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect even a newer user to respond to a freaking ping and read what was written there. WP:CIR. They had more than ample advice and warning, even if we failed to follow procedure to the letter. Thanks for the block. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:00, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Together with the warnings, it should hopefully hold them. Bishonen | talk 14:03, 10 November 2016 (UTC).

One of the things about the DS, as I understand it, is that people generally will not be sanctioned for violating them until after they have received the OFFICIAL warning on their talk page. When you put {{subst:alert|ap}} on their talk page, it gets logged, and they are thereafter expected to abide by the rules and be sanctioned if they don't. It creates an actual record, which they cannot remove, showing that they have been warned. "They should have read the notice" or "I pinged them" is not considered to be adequate, documented warning in terms of issuing blocks and/or bans (except possibly in the most egregious cases). Anyhow, if you see someone violating the DS, don't mess around with other ways of warning them. Put the template on their talk page. In my case I usually add a custom-written paragraph explaining exactly what that means and what behavior of theirs triggered it. But it is the official templated warning that puts them on notice. Bishonen, would you agree with this? --MelanieN (talk) 16:33, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes, MelanieN, I have to agree. It's a very bureaucratic system, but we have to comply with it, because it's only the official alert template that "counts", which matters a lot if the user appeals our discretionary sanctions. On the upside, it's not hard to add a ds alert template. Melanie has provided the specific American politics template above. This is the general form of the alert, for all areas: {{subst:alert|topic}}. Replace "topic" with the official and also intuitive code for the topic area (ap for American politics, blp for biographies, cc for climate change, and so on). To make doubly sure, there's a list of those topic codes here (scroll down a little). Bishonen | talk 16:53, 10 November 2016 (UTC).

Well I'm just learning this after 3.5 years and about 30K edits, and it's not like I don't pay attention or don't care about doing things the right way. The logical conclusion is that the DS are largely pointless unless there happens to be someone at my level or above around. "Bureaucracy" is spot on, and it's my understanding that excessive bureaucracy is something to be avoided, not embraced. Added to my list of Just How Things Are At En-wiki, Deal With It. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:50, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Climate change denial should be mentioned in the lead

His climate change denial is mentioned in the body of the article, with several reliable sources ("Trump rejects the scientific consensus on climate change, repeatedly contending that global warming is a "hoax."). Many RS have discussed his climate change denial and how serious these views are, so this is certainly not a lesser issue, many RS agree it's one of the most important political issues when it comes to Trump. Therefore it should clearly be mentioned in the lead. --Tataral (talk) 07:28, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

It has not received a lot of attention and therefore does not belong there (yet). TFD (talk) 07:49, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

IMHO, it has received a lot of attention (at least outside the US) although we may wait for a few days to put it in the lead. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 08:58, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

It does not belong in the lede. The lede should mention only those things that he himself made into the major themes of his campaign (e.g. immigration and trade). Climate change is already in the body of the text, and it gets suitable attention at Political positions of Donald Trump. --MelanieN (talk) 16:35, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

"The lede should mention only those things that he himself made into the major themes" – that the subject of an article gets to decide which issues that are covered in the lead is certainly not a recognised principle on Misplaced Pages or what WP:LEAD says. Trump has himself made strongly contrarian statements on climate change and the environment and has said he wants to dismantle the Environmental Protection Agency. Clearly environmental policy is a very important topic and he holds strong views on it and has proposed radical policies in the field. --Tataral (talk) 19:47, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Please have this discussion at Talk:Political positions of Donald Trump. — JFG 23:06, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

"Clearly environmental policy is a very important topic" This statement is factually incorrect. You may think environmental policy is important but that is your opinion only. I don't think environmental policy is important. Further, the assertion that environmental policy is "clearly very important" is necessarily false... because it clearly is NOT important to me. So speak for yourself. 107.0.155.16 (talk) 16:49, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 November 2016

This edit request to Donald Trump has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

THIS IS AN IMPORTANT REQUEST WHERE[REDACTED] SHOULD JUST STICK TO THE FACTS RATHER THAN SPECULATION REGARDING THE OUTCOME OF THE AMERICAN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION PROCESS.

Please REMOVE "He was elected as the 45th U.S. president in the 2016 election, defeating Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton, and will take office on January 20, 2017. At 70 years old, Trump will be the oldest person to assume the presidency." As Mr. Trump has not been elected yet by the Electoral College which should confirm their choice on December 19 2016 according to the Constitution, under circumstances prevailing at the time and under the fact that Mr. Trump did not garner the majority of the popular votes...hence he is not the American people president of choice. I will circulate this request on Social media.[REDACTED] CAN DO BETTER THAN THAT if it wants to be considered as a trusted source.

REPLACE WITH: " He ran for the position of 45th U.S. president in the 2016 election, coming second by popular votes count behind Hillary Clinton, however deemed president-elect on the assumption that, as customary but not by any provision of the Constitution, all Electors comprising the Electoral College in a State will vote for the candidate who received the majority of the popular vote in that state."

YPLeroux (talk) 15:10, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

 Not done See the definition of President-elect of the United States. — JFG 16:29, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Fly-by comment-Yeah,the correction to document these trivial finer aspects seem to be the lone hope to delay the inevitable as long as possible!But given the post-poll environment, the sentence proposed by YPLeroux (talk · contribs) is a classic!Sorry, that it does not conform to the article of President-elect of the United States. Aru@baska 19:39, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 November 2016

Template:Edit extended-

Bashir280 (talk) 20:08, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

 Not done You have not stated what changes you would propose to the article. General Ization 20:14, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

President (elect) should come before businessman

It is with all the other Presidents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:3020:2B00:200:70FE:3C0B:85DF:889D (talk) 20:35, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Wrong golf course

In the third paragraph of Section 2.1.6, the positioning of the sentence "In June 2015, Trump made an appeal objecting to an offshore windfarm (Aberdeen Bay Wind Farm) being built within sight of the golf course, which was dismissed by five justices at the UK Supreme Court in December 2015." implies that the wind farm was built in sight of the Turnberry course, not the Aberdeen course on the other side of the country. Should the sentence be moved to the previous paragraph for clarity? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.147.187.230 (talk) 13:22, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for the heads up! — JFG 23:31, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 November 2016

This edit request to Donald Trump has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Typo Correction - Please change ("skills as a negotiato.") under 2.1.2 Trump Tower to ("skills as a negotiator.") TCDTA (talk) 23:31, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

 Done. - CHAMPION 23:46, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Rfc about Donald Trump's new photo proposal

As it states "Limited to the specific use, medium, period of time, print run, placement, size of content, and territory selected, and any other restrictions that accompany the content on the Getty Images website (or any other method of content delivery) or in an order confirmation or invoice. Non-Exclusive, meaning that you do not have exclusive rights to use the content. Getty Images can license the same content to other customers. Exclusive licenses may be available for rights-managed content upon payment of an additional license fee. Please contact Getty Images if you are interested in licensing content on an exclusive basis."

"Donald Trump" or "Donald J. Trump"?

How should he be referred as as President? Because I've seen both forms used and I'm not sure there is yet a consensus on that. Or is it too early to bring this up? Cheers, κατάσταση 18:45, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Or is it too early to bring this up? Let's wait until his son is elected before we add the J:). Objective3000 (talk) 18:47, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

You think his son could beat Chelsea? I suggest we start an article on the presidency of Donald Trump if there is not one already. Maybe the articles on the Trump organization and The Apprentice are adequate for his business activities. TFD (talk) 20:07, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Once he becomes president next year, there's every chance the article will need to be moved to Donald J. Trump; his official social media profiles (Twitter, Facebook) use his middle initial. I think it is too soon to do so now as it's not in the common vernacular as is with John F. Kennedy or even James K. Polk. So many people have known him for decades as just Donald Trump, but it is still worth pointing out … only time will tell! CityFeedback 10:02, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Once he becomes president, he will establish how he wishes to be known. If the White House webpage refers to him as Donald J. Trump; if his employees and surrogates refer to him as "President Donald J. Trump"; if his official portrait (and we should put that in here if we can get it) is titled Donald J. Trump; then it will be clear that is his presidential name and we should move the article. If these sources mainly refer to him as "Donald Trump" then we will keep it here. Nothing should be done until he assumes office. A president gets to establish how he/she is referred to by contemporaries and posterity - whether as Richard M. Nixon or Ronald Reagan, Dwight D. Eisenhower or Jimmy Carter. (And I'm puzzled - you said his Facebook and Twitter profiles use his middle initial, but those entities are titled without it..) MelanieN alt (talk) 08:18, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Trump and Wrestling

@MelanieN: Nothing about Trump's involvement in professional wrestling in the lead section of the article. Details about other ventures like pageantry and reality TV were added. Is there any reason why the wrestling part was not included? Stanleytux (talk) 12:12, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

• Honestly that is such a small part of his life it does not warrant to be included in the lead, and that is coming from a wrestling fan.  MPJ-DK  13:38, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Why are his "political stances" still in the main article?

Why is Donald Trump the first President (or soon to be) to have a section devoted to his "political stances". If people want to check out his political positions, the main article is linked in the Trump series template. I know a lot of folks here are very very hessitant in deleting a currently major section, but can't we face the facts and admit that it shouldn't be there anymore? User1937 (talk) 14:14, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTALBALL statement in article lead

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The first paragraph of the lead section contains the sentence:

He was elected as the 45th U.S. president in the 2016 election on the Republican ticket, defeating Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton, and will take office on January 20, 2017. (emphasis added)

Please change this to:

He was elected as the 45th U.S. president in the 2016 election on the Republican ticket, defeating Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton, and is scheduled to take office on January 20, 2017.

While it is extremely likely that Trump will take office on schedule, it is not yet a mathematical certainty that nothing will happen to prevent this from occurring. --Jester 10:40, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Done. PeterTheFourth (talk) 15:17, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Donald Trump is the president-elect ?

I have a question for you as I Wikipedian Polish Misplaced Pages ... Why according to you Donald Trump is now president-elect? I ask, because many times I go to the enwiki and look with astonishment that give information in advance. I hope that nothing will change at the Trump ... but how do you ensure that Trump will be the president ..... and only on December 19 will be known. At my pliwiki to immediately cancel that person adds that "Donald Trump is the president-elect" TharonXX (talk) 14:51, 12 November 2016 (UTC).

Previously discussed multiple times on this page. You can find some of it still on the page, the rest in recent archive pages. The short answer: Most reliable sources say he is the president-elect, so we say he is the president-elect. It is not according to us. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:05, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, but Donald J. Trump is the president designate and not the president-elect. Though dismissed as a technicality, legally he has not been elected president by the electoral college. That will take place on December 19, 2016. Once that happens he will be the president-elect.Setoche (talk) 15:55, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Agree with Mandruss. Reliable sources call him President-elect. Obama and Hillary call him President-elect. The news media calls him that. Those are all reliable sources. SW3 5DL (talk) 19:14, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Claim that Donald Trump saved the world from nuclear war

I suggest we add a note on this article that the Presidential adviser to Vladimir Putin, Sergei Glazyev, said that Donald Trump has saved the world from nuclear war following his election. This already has precedent in other articles whose profiles were praised as saving the world. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3922890/The-Kremlin-says-victory-Clinton-sparked-World-War-Three-electing-Trump-saved-world-Armageddon.html#comments — Preceding unsigned comment added by PantherBF3 (talk • contribs) 11:53, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Hagiologically ridiculous. -- Jack of Oz 11:56, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

stop trolling User:JackofOz — Preceding unsigned comment added by PantherBF3 (talk • contribs) 12:17, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Might be worth adding to Sergey Glazyev, although the Daily Mail is not always regarded as WP:RS. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:03, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

While it's pretty clear from my user page that I hate both Trump and the Mail, pretty much every any news source you can read on Trump right now is going to be POV one way or another, and new information should ideally from a cross-section of pieces whose bias cancels each other out. Ritchie333 12:23, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Two days after the election and Trump has yet to take office. The claim, if it was made, is silly and the person making the claim holds no office. Further, his opinion is likely tainted by the fact that the current president froze his U.S assets and he is banned from entering the U.S. Objective3000 (talk) 12:31, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

new information should ideally from a cross-section of pieces whose bias cancels each other out Did I just hear that from an admin? WP:FALSEBALANCE. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:36, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

That link you supplied mentions things like the moon landings being a hoax and that the earth is flat; the only news source I know who mentions that is the Sunday Sport. Ritchie333 12:39, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Nevertheless, I know of nothing in WP:NPOV or any other policy that supports your statement highlighted above. My guide is WP:DUE, whether or not that results in "a cross-section of pieces whose bias cancels each other out". ―Mandruss ☎ 12:43, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Saved the world from Nuclear war? How? By destroying the USA without need for any war is the only way he could do it. Trump is the one talking about starting wars all the time! Most people think silly trump is going to start a nuke war even if he doesnt intend too, with his ignorant ancient trade ideas.--Simon19800 (talk) 00:28, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

How do people believe this when he just defeated one of the biggest warmongerers in American history?108.54.106.8 (talk) 00:46, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Immediate back flip on main stance straight after election

With the change from Ill get rid all off illegals to ALL THE ILLEGALS CAN NOW STAY. Was it all just a trick to get the ignorant white trash vote? The ones who voted for their pay to be cut..... After all who is going to work for trumps 4$ an hour? Only the illegals.--Simon19800 (talk) 00:24, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Um... talk pages aren't general forums... We just cite stuff. Є𐌔ⲘО𐌔𐍄 00:52, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 November 2016

This edit request to Donald Trump has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Howardform (talk) 23:25, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Donald Trump was born in Queens, NY not New York, NY (He was actually born in Jamaica, NY)

The address is 85-15 wareham Rd Jamaica, NY you can search for this anywhere

Hi Howardform, the article infobox lists New York City, New York as his birthplace, which is actually correct. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 02:48, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Good news!

Hey, Trump's the president-elect now. I bet you didn't know that. Anyways, while some people are very polarised about what happened, there's some good news (for everyone)! This article can now be nominated for GA-status, now that it's stable, for the most part. So be bold and nominate it! :(:) Є𐌔ⲘО𐌔𐍄 22:37, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

I'm iffy on the "it's stable" bit. Plenty of new information is coming out. Dustin (talk) 22:53, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, this has been an incredibly unstable article, with edit wars and constant, huge neutrality battles for months. I'm sure the battles will resume after the shock subsides. Plus this article will need major work in the coming months as the focus switches from being mainly a business person to being mainly a politician. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:18, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

If it was "stable" it would't need extended-confirmed protection. The explosion of argument on this talk page immediately after his election shows what would have happened to the article without the extra protection. Maybe when it reaches the point where it can be reduced to semi-protection it could be evaluated for stability. It is certainly not there now. MelanieN alt (talk) 08:24, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

@Esmost: All true. And first you need to work on trying to get it to B-quality. (The quality ratings all got erroneously changed over Election Day; I've restored.) --Dervorguilla (talk) 04:20, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Fascism?

Major demonstrations against Trump

Now "major demonstrations against Trump" is on every frontpage where I live (not the US); the global coverage of the demonstrations is extensive, and it is clear that it will have to be mentioned in the article, and in my opinion also be mentioned briefly (one sentence) in the lead. Also, Trump has directly responded/engaged with the demonstrators on Twitter in his usual way (spewing invectives). --Tataral (talk) 11:07, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

• Police In Portland Say Anti-Trump Protest Is Now a ‘Riot’, TIME
• Protests against Donald Trump's win turn violent, AJE
• Second night of Trump protests in US cities, FT
• Civil rights a major concern on second day of anti-Trump protests, Reuters
• Chaos in Portland as police declare anti-Trump protest a ‘riot’, AP

"Trump has directly responded/engaged with the demonstrators on Twitter in his usual way (spewing invectives)".. more insane people.. why are people like this even allowed to edit on such controversial article with such obvious and clear bias?? just give up, Donald Trump won and will be president of the united states, he will ally with putin and avoid ww3 so be thankful that nuclear apocalypse does not happen due to silly attempt to overthrow assad for who knows whos gain KMilos (talk) 15:45, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

No, Tataral, Trump has NOT directly responded/engaged with the demonstrators on Twitter by "spewing invectives". This is what Donald Trump said on Twitter today, 11 Nov 2016 about the demonstrators (or rioters, according to the NY Post/AP article you listed): "Love the fact that the small groups of protesters last night have passion for our great country. We will all come together and be proud!" That is not invective, but rather, is remarkably tolerant about rioters who are causing severe damage to property and also physically harming innocent bystanders.

I would recommend waiting to add content about the protests of a fair election, as they are recent, and Misplaced Pages is not a source of current news.--FeralOink (talk) 05:36, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Seems like it should go to United States presidential election, 2016 or something rather than this BLP, since it's not something in Trumps life or in response to an action he did. I it gets organized or larger it might be worth is own article, but a 'couple days' of it and awfully vague on content or mixed with riot and looting ... doesn't seem big enough for that. Markbassett (talk) 07:53, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

What is the page curation utility doing on this page?

If you haven't noticed, the page curation tool is up on this page. This article is not newly created or unreviewed, odd as to why it is on here? Or is this just me? - CHAMPION 22:00, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

@Champion: Educate me. What is it, where is it, and why do we care whether it's on this page? ―Mandruss ☎ 22:35, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

@Mandruss:See WP:Page Curation It was on the right side of the page when I posted the original comment and remains there, and it is only meant to appear on newly created or unreviewed articles, but it is not the case here. - CHAMPION 22:57, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

FYI I have inquired about it at WP:HD and it turns out it was vandalized after being moved into draft space and is caused by a bug in the tool. - CHAMPION 06:17, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

It's not a bug at all. See the page's logs; a series of compromised admin accounts (including Jimbo's!) vandalised the Main Page, and several of them vandalised this by moving it to Draft:Donald Trump or the like (one did the same to Hillary Rodham Clinton's, too), so several times it had to be moved back to this title. Page Curation is set up to appear on any page that's recently been moved from draftspace to mainspace, as this one was. Programming it to ignore pages that have spent a long time in mainspace would maybe be a good deal of work, and since sometimes existing articles are moved to userspace or draftspace because they're really bad quality (as an alternative to deletion), we can't guarantee that even a longtime-in-mainspace draft should necessarily be exempt from Page Curation. The big issue is that pagemove vandalism of articles like this to draftspace is exceptionally rare, and since Page Curation doesn't hurt anything, we don't need to worry about accounting for it. Nyttend (talk) 13:03, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Capitalization of president-elect

Re

I get that there is disagreement in this area in the world, and I get that many people see their viewpoints on certain style issues as the only correct ones regardless of community consensus, but I do not see support at MOS:JOBTITLES for Michipedian's reasoning as to the word "the" and common vs. proper nouns. I understand the reasoning, and I don't necessarily disagree with it, but that's beside the point. I note that "president-elect" occurs 15 times uncapitalized at President-elect of the United States. Since JOBTITLES represents the community consensus on this, we needn't look any further. Anyone is free to seek a new community consensus, but the way to do that is not by revert and edit summary in mainspace.

When commenting, please bear in mind that it's not about what seems more correct to you, but what is supported by Misplaced Pages's guideline on the matter. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:52, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

I think my reasoning is supported by the third bullet point in the link you provided.

"When the correct formal title is treated as a proper name (e.g., King of France; it is correct to write Louis XVI was King of France but Louis XVI was the French king)"

According to this, I believe the following are all correct:

- "Donald Trump is President-elect of the United States."

- "Barack Obama is President of the United States."

- "Donald Trump is the president-elect of the United States."

- "Barack Obama is the president of the United States."

Michipedian (talk) 18:59, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

It's difficult to reconcile that with the non-capitalization in "as well as chairman and president of The Trump Organization". "Chairman of The Trump Organization" and "President of The Trump Organization" are both titles that are no less "proper names" than "President-elect of the United States", and there is no "the" preceding them. The fact that there are no Misplaced Pages articles for those titles seems irrelevant for this purpose; they are still titles.
Nevertheless, your position is not completely baseless per guideline as I thought, so I'll concede assuming no one else jumps in with a stronger counter. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:21, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Michipedian on this fine point of orthography. — JFG 20:47, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

If "Chairman" and "President" are official titles in the governmental structure of The Trump Organization, then they should be capitalized as well. Michipedian (talk) 06:19, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Re @Spartan7W: Your editsum suggests that you did not see mine or read this thread. Are you disputing the conclusion reached and agreed upon here? If so, on what basis? ―Mandruss ☎ 20:12, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

There is absolutely no logic in leaving "President-elect" lowercase when it is used as a proper noun. If one uses 'President-elect' as a title before 'Trump' or as a standalone, it is capitalized. If it is used to describe the office, it is capitalized. Only if it is not used as a proper noun is it lowercase. Same goes for "Chairman" or any other title. There is no consensus or agreement reached here on this topic, and even if there were somehow consensus, the glaring inaccuracy of a lowercase 'President-elect' in proper noun situations justifies ignoring it   Spartan7W §   14:40, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

@Spartan7W: Please refer to the guideline cited above. "Louis XVI was the French king", from the guideline, is grammatically equivalent to "Donald John Trump ... is the president-elect of the United States." If not, what is the grammatical difference? Pinging Michipedian for comment. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:56, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Because "French king" and "California governor," or whatever you want, aren't titles. An announcer doesn't say "his highness, French king Louis XVI," he says, "His Highness, the King of France, Louis XVI, etc". Thus, President-elect of the United States is a position, an office, a title; it represents an incoming American president (<-see what I did there?). The term 'president-elect' is not a proper noun unless used officially, or as a title preceding his name, "President-elect Donald Trump." In the case of French king, "France" is the proper noun, but you are just describing an adverb of sorts, as 'king' in general terms refers to a general position and powers, as opposed to King of France, a specific and formal title. If you said Donald Trump, blah blah blah, is the 'American president-elect' or 'United States president-elect,' then I would have no issue with the case of the word. However, that is not a formal use of the office and title, and the proper way is "President-elect of the United States," and same goes for any office. Eric Garcetti is the Los Angeles mayor, as newspapers often put to save space, but formally and properly, Eric Garcetti is the Mayor of Los Angeles (you can also put the person in the middle and say "Mayor Eric Garcetti of Los Angeles". A word describing an office like senator, governor, president, mayor, chairman, secretary are just common nouns on their own, unless coupled with a formally structured title, like President of the United States.   Spartan7W §   15:07, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Now at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#the P/president-elect of the United States. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:38, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Edit request

Please remove the word "American" from the opening sentence. This is proven by him being president elect, as mentioned earlier on in the sentence. It's also a case of overlink Valentina Cardoso (talk) 15:57, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Done. --Malerooster (talk) 16:07, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Barack Obama also says "American" on the lead. Also, it is standard MOS:BLPLEAD to have their nationality on the lead, no matter what office they hold. Also, if it was proven that he was American by being a president-elect, we could've also omitted it when he was a presidential candidate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eric0928 (talk • contribs) 17:58, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

WP Neutral Point of View Policy (Social Issues, Abortion)

WP has a clear Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view policy. The abortion section must not be tinged with flagrantly biased language. Therefore, the prefix anti will not be used, as it carries with it severe negative connotations. Instead, in order to establish balance, the terms pro-life, and pro-choice will be used respectively. We will not be using the terms "anti-abortion, anti-life, anti-fetal rights, anti-choice", etc. as these are deliberately incendiary and biased terms. Please do not reintroduce biased language. Instead, discuss terms on the talk page. Ontario Teacher BFA BEd (talk) 18:36, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

New article: Donald Trump's business career

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Edit request: Change the entire business career section to the text on this page.

Before the election, I came up with a proposal to split Donald Trump's business career into a new article, citing the fact that the article is really huge (and now it's even bigger at 91 kB of readable prose size, according to this script). WP:SIZESPLIT encourages that most articles be split above 60 kB of readable prose size, and should almost certainly be split above 100 kB. Other sections should most probably be split too, but this section is just about discussing the business career section.

I ended up deciding to wait because other editors pointed out that any changes made before the election might have to be undone afterwards depending on whether he was elected or not. Now, since the political areas of the article are only going to expand, I think it makes sense to split off the business ventures section of the article into a new one and include a summarized version in the main article instead. Below are my proposals, which are up to date as of November 10.

• The proposed shortened text to put in the main article, which will eliminate about 11 kB of readable prose size.
• The new article. This is basically just the modern "Business career" section on Misplaced Pages, with a new lead paragraph – feel free to improve it.

I believe these suggestions are cautious enough that they can be implemented right away if editors are in favor of doing so, and once another full article is created, the version on the main article can be safely trimmed down more, bit by bit. I know that removing some parts will generate a lot of controversy, so I did my best to trim only obvious paragraphs. JasperTECH (talk) 16:48, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

• Support – I totally agree with splitting off his business career now. However I think it's even more urgent to mercilessly trim everything related to this nasty and long-winded presidential campaign, because most of it is a sheer duplicate of stuff mentioned at length in dedicated articles (and those could be trimmed of excess detail too). Happy to contribute to the copyediting if we don't get too much pushback. — JFG 18:18, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support some type of split to reduce the size of this particular article. I am not sure what the best way to split it would be, but this seems to be one way to do it. Tony Tan · talk 19:19, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:28, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

All right – I've created the article. Unfortunately, I don't have extended-confirmed abilities yet, so if someone could implement the shortened change to the main article, that'd be fantastic. And honestly, I don't expect many valid reasons not to create this article. You know, WP:BOLD and everything. JasperTECH (talk) 00:54, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Done Tony Tan · talk 05:20, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Tony_Tan! Just one quick follow-up edit, since the Trump Force One image under net worth isn't displaying properly due to a modified dash.

This edit request to Donald Trump has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Text to delete: File:Trump Force One at Valdosta Regional Airport a&nbsp;— cropped.jpg

Replace with: File:Trump Force One at Valdosta Regional Airport a - cropped.jpg

Thanks again. I'll be getting extended-protected abilities in a week and a half or something, so I won't be bothering anyone for too long. In the mean time, I'll work on some other articles.

JasperTECH (talk) 13:43, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

 Fixed ―Mandruss ☎ 14:10, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

@JasperTech: FYI: I embarked on a general trimming expedition today, cutting redundancies, excruciating detail and overcites; readable prose size is down from 89k to 77k. More to do, but that's progress. — JFG 19:05, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Polling failure - suggest add these sources for section on Polling failure

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Polling failure

The election ended in a victory for Donald Trump despite being behind in nearly all opinion polls. After the general election polling misfiring, media analysts differed as to why the opinion prediction industry was unable to correctly forecast the result. BBC News questioned whether polling should be abandoned due to its abject failure. Forbes magazine contributor astrophysicist Ethan Siegel performed a scientific analysis and raised whether the statistical population sampled for the polling was inaccurate, and cited the cautionary adage Garbage in, garbage out. He concluded there may have been sampling bias on the part of the pollsters. Siegel compared the 2016 election to the failure of prognosticator Arthur Henning in the Dewey Defeats Truman incident from the 1948 presidential election.

Suggest to add above as new section for the article.

Or some, all, or any of the above.

Thank you !

References

1. ^ Peter Barnes, Senior elections and political analyst, BBC News (11 November 2016), "Reality Check: Should we give up on election polling?", BBC News, retrieved 12 November 2016{{citation}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
2. ^ Ethan Siegel (9 November 2016), "The Science Of Error: How Polling Botched The 2016 Election", Forbes magazine, retrieved 12 November 2016

69.50.70.9 (talk) 06:08, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

The polling is about the campaign, and should be on the campaign articles. But, it's not biographic and it shouldn't be added to this page. – Muboshgu (talk) 06:11, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

2nd paragraph at Donald_Trump#General_election already does discuss it. So clearly it does belong on this article page. Perhaps just a small addition to mention the media comparison to Dewey Defeats Truman from 1948. 69.50.70.9 (talk) 06:21, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

No thanks. Now that the frenzy is past, I hope to see non-BLP parts move to better spots and shrink this article to saner size -- and as Muboshgu said, this isn't something in Trumps life or response to something he did, it's about polling. Maybe in some election article or polling article, but not here. Markbassett (talk) 08:03, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Agree with both Muboshgu and Markbasset. Not here.Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:35, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Not done: There does not seem to be consensus — Andy W. (talk) 20:01, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Muslim ban in lead is incorrect

It states it's now a ban on countries with a proven history of terrorism, and links an old Trump webpage. It has been updated in October to "extreme vetting'; The muslim ban is off the table, it's now extreme vetting. http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/300132-trump-muslim-ban-morphed-into-extreme-vetting

Can someone change this, because it isn't correct. Sandiego91 (talk) 23:13, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 November 2016

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In the introduction, it suggests that many of Trump's statements have been "controversial or false". While I believe that "controversial" is easily a fair assessment, labeling them as "false" comes down as a judgment call that crosses into POV territory. It would be more encyclopedic to say that they have been "controversial or even alleged falsehoods" or "accused of being false". Lord Sephiran, Duke of Persis (talk) 20:38, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Done. This appears heavily biased, especially as all candidates speak many false statements, being aware or not. I am removing it. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 02:49, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Ugh there appears to have been a weak consensus against this; another RfC should be made now that this is receiving more attention, i.e. now that he is President-elect. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 03:15, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

For future editors, this is the relevant RfC. Ɱ, I disagree with the idea of doing another RfC now. Since his campaign is over, nothing has changed that will make the outcome of another RfC any different (the previous RfC was finished in September 2016). Since it is well-sourced and undisputed that many of his statements have been false, there is nothing wrong with stating it as a fact – no reliable sources (that I know of) are denying that "many of his statements have been controversial or false." The NPOV policy page says to avoid stating opinions as facts, but it also warns to avoid stating facts as opinions. Changing it to "accused of being false" would be a blatant violation of that policy. Even if one reliable source could be found that claimed all of Trump's statements were true, including it would be giving undue weight to a fringe view.

Most importantly, the word "false" is used many times throughout the article in reference to numerous statements Trump has made throughout his campaign, and all those occurrences would need to be changed before the lead could be changed. (Imagine if the article said: "Trump publicly acknowledged that Obama was born in the U.S., and falsely claimed that rumors to the contrary had been started by Hillary Clinton during her 2008 presidential campaign. His statements were accused of being false.") JasperTECH (talk) 04:13, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

No, that's not how it works. The lede is for the most notable information. It's notable that Trump makes controversial statements, which most politicians don't, but it's not notable that Trump has lied or spoken falsely, which most politicians do. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 17:13, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

So it doesn't matter that there are many people out there that believe his reputedly false statements? Isn't it sort of one-sided to say that there aren't enough reputable sources that say his statement aren't false? Are there even sources that take the time to mention that something is particularly not false? It seems like this is set up to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.Lord Sephiran, Duke of Persis (talk) 23:53, 13 November 2016 (UTC)