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Other Versions: Earth 2

Under Other versions there should be a reference to the Earth 2 Joker who appeared as a villian against the Huntress and the Earth-2 Robin. In this version, he had a tooth missing.

Scott Snyder's Batman #38, The Joker's immortality

The Joker's immortality was established in Scott Snyder's Batman #38 and is part of the Batman: Endgame series. Is it worthy of note that comic panels in #38 credit the source of The Joker's immortality to a chemical called "Dionesium"?

Other panels show that Dionesium comes from the prehistoric meteor which gave Vandal Savage his immortality. It is also reveled that the meteor sparked pools of radiation, later called "Lazarus Pits", which are used by Ra's Al Ghul for the purpose of regeneration. Is the correlation between these villains and their shared source of immortality worthy of mention? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amodernvillain (talk • contribs) 20:57, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

It's a major plot point and explains how Bruce Wayne (and possible the "New 52" Joker as well) was alive after he supposedly died there. Also it is a major plot point in Batman vol 2 #40 where Batman uses an immune response blocker to test the Joker's supposed immortality. If the Joker just found the pool then the block would prevent him from healing but if he as was claimed found the pool hundreds of years ago then the blocker would only slow his healing.--BruceGrubb (talk) 22:45, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Post-Endgame

I should mention that Bruce Wayne was said to have been exposed to the Dionesium pool the Joker had found (or had used centuries ago) and was restored to life with no memory of who he was. While trying to figure out what to do with his life (with everything but being the Batman revealed to him by Alfred Pennyworth) he meets a stranger who smiles a lot (It is heavily implied that this is the Joker who has no real memory of who either of them was). While this is all going on Gotham in under siege by a criminal onslaught created a criminal known as Mister Bloom that only Batman can defeat. Realizing thanks to his talk with the smiling stranger that he is Batman he forces Alfred Pennyworth to use a machine Batman designed to turn a clone of him into the next Batman. After repeatedly going through a series of Elseworld like settings Bruce Wayne realizes the only way to truly restore Batman is to let Bruce Wayne die.

Later Batman acquires the Mobius Chair and asks "What's the Joker's real name?" and the response causes him to say "No that is not possible. Eventually it is revealed that the answer was there are three Jokers who "from the looks of the artwork, it appears that the three jokers include the original, Jerry Robinson Joker; the Brian Bolland Killing Joke Joker; and the Scott Snyder/Greg Capullo "New 52" Joker". In DC Universe - Rebirth #1 Batman tells Alfred that the Joker was in Civic City killing people while the Joker has also been caught just outside Baltimore three hours ago and was in transit Arkham Asylum as there were talking.--BruceGrubb (talk) 13:38, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

• ultimately that's too much detail. Do you want to have detailed plot descriptions for every appearance of the character? That may be the realm of a fan site, but not here. We don't know yet how much of this, if any, is going to be notable going forward. Killer Moff (talk) 08:42, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

"arguably"

"The character's maiming of Barbara arguably turned her into a more-important character in the DC Universe" This is cited to a print source (Manning, Matthew K. (2011). The Joker: A Visual History of the Clown Prince of Crime), but I'm curious about the adverb "arguably". It seems like a single source would argue one way or the other. Does this word actually come from the book? Argento Surfer (talk) 12:46, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

No. "DC chose not to roll back Barbara Gordon's paralysis after The Killing Joke, and in the process made her more important to the DC Universe than she had ever been as Batgirl. Training he r upper body to perfection but using a wheelchair for mobility, she moved into a Gotham clock tower and used her skills as a networked data-gatherer to feed information to other superheroes as the mysterious Oracle." Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 17:16, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks! I've rewritten that section to better match the source. Argento Surfer (talk) 17:35, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Proposed redirect

Any key detail on the character should be here on one page. This means The Joker (The Dark Knight) wouldn't have its own article. Its key details basically rehash parts of this page, and it's rather repetitive to have multiple pages on one character. Snuggums (talk / edits) 03:28, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

I agree that there might be a bit too many pages on this character, but I don't think The Joker (The Dark Knight) is the page to remove. That particular version of the character has gained enough mainstream recognition and notability (not to mention reliable sources) to warrant an article. However, the page that I feel really needs to be deleted is Joker (character). Apparently, when Darkwarriorblake first nominated Joker (comics) for Good Article status, it was denied because of a lack of a hub page for the Joker character. The problem with that is that Joker (comics) is the hub page for the character. The character is primarily a comics character, and the title "Joker (comics)" is to comply with Misplaced Pages's naming conventions. Not to mention that the article already has sections for "Alternative versions" and "In other media". Joker (character) is 100% redundant and needs to be removed. DarkKnight2149 16:00, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

I'll try to nominate it for FAC again this weekend, then if the same user objects you can raise the issue with him. But while I explained those other articles, I was shouted down and my FAC was rejected. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 16:56, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

I don't deny that The Dark Knight's Joker got lots of publicity, but it still is the same basic character and we don't need to repeat character details on more than one page for a character. Having a separate "Joker (character)" article is no better when there is already this page. You can safely redirect it here with no reasonable worries. TDK edition can also be described here quite well in the "Alternate versions" and "In other media" sections. Having separate entries on each of his incarnations might be fine for a Batman/DC Comics fansite, but that's not what Misplaced Pages is or should be. Snuggums (talk / edits) 17:09, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

@Darkwarriorblake: Understandable. The FAC is the reason I've been waiting to pursue a deletion.DarkKnight2149 18:59, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

@SNUGGUMS: There is too much information in the article to fit into that one section. The film character has also become a notable topic in its own right, which is why it has an article. We don't just give articles to every film version of comic characters. There's a reason why Batman (1989 film character) and Joker (Batman '66) don't have articles. DarkKnight2149 18:59, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

On the contrary, all you really need is a bit on casting, praise, accolades, and maybe production/plot details. That shouldn't have to take up more than two or three paragraphs. It essentially is borderline fancruft to have multiple pages for the same basic character. Snuggums (talk / edits) 20:04, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

I have no opinion on the TDK Joker article existing or not, but it's content could not fit here as the film section is a summary rather than a detailed account. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 21:25, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

If mainly filled with plot, then such details are fine for TDK film's main page. Snuggums (talk / edits) 21:35, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

The TDK article isn't mainly filled with plot. And the majority of the cited information in the article doesn't constitute fancruft. The TDK article doesn't really rehash much from this article and, as mentioned earlier, that version of the character has become a notable topic on its own. DarkKnight2149 18:20, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

I said having multiple pages on the same basic character is fancruft, not necessarily the amount of detail on the page. Don't forget how that and this are both the same basic character. If no aspect of Joker was notable at all, then any article on him would probably just redirect to a list of Batman characters. Misplaced Pages again isn't supposed to be a Batman/DC Comics fansite, which is the only type of place anyone could reasonably justify having multiple Joker articles. Snuggums (talk / edits) 19:55, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

I get that this isn't a Joker fansite, but which of the articles aren't warranted? We've established that Joker (character) will likely be deleted after the FAC (and rightly so). The only reason Joker in other media and Alternative versions of Joker exists is because not all of that information would fit in this article. Joker (graphic novel) has to do with a specific story, and not the character. Joker (comic book) is, again, not about the character. I've already explained my opinion on the TDK article. Are there any others? DarkKnight2149 21:50, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

"Other media" and "Alternative versions" really are lists (the former is a list of appearances while the latter is a list of incarnations) as opposed to character biographies like this (to some extent) is. Books are also a separate thing and fine to keep since they are specific stories. It's multiple character articles (lists aren't exactly the same as articles) that simply aren't warranted per the reasons I gave before. Snuggums (talk / edits) 20:50, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

But aside from the TDK article and Joker (character), which other character articles are there for the Joker? And while I agree on your position about this not being a Batman fansite, if the separate articles each have a reason to exist on their own (which Joker (character) doesn't), then I think we need a better reason to delete them than "there's too many of them". As I mentioned earlier, the TDK article is well cited, noteworthy, and it doesn't rehash this article too much. DarkKnight2149 23:00, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

There no other pages of such sort that I can think of. Citing again IS NOT the concern and doesn't change the fact that TDK Joker is still the same basic character as incarnations like Suicide Squad Joker or 1989 Joker. It basically is a disguised content fork. Snuggums (talk / edits) 01:17, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

That reasoning pretty much comes down to your personal perception on how similar the versions are to one another, and isn't an objective reason to turn that page into a redirect. I, for instance, think that all three versions are very different from one another. And I've explained earlier the reasons that the TDK page exists, and the other versions you mentioned don't have enough notability, information, impact, ETC, to have an article (which is why the TDK character does and they don't). And, again, the article really doesn't rehash much from other articles except in the Plot section. And when it comes down to it, there just isn't a consensus to turn it into a redirect. I have yet to see anyone else support redirecting it here and there is too much encyclopedic content to simply merge it with this article. DarkKnight2149 00:37, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

• Oh, God, Darkknight2149, don't start up this garbage that the comics character is the character. The article on the comics version of the character cannot be the base page. The comics version of the character is a sub-version of the character itself. Where the character first appeared is irrelevant. Curly "the jerk" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:21, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
  • @Curly Turkey: Except the comics character IS indeed the primary version of the character, as the character was created for DC Comics and was merely adapted for other media... Literally the exact same thing for every other article about comics characters. Joker (comics) is the base article, and there is no excuse for the existence of Joker (character).
    • Please, Darkknight2149, crawl out of the basement. You're making an embarassment of yourself. There's a whole world out there outside your longboxes. Curly "the jerk" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 00:29, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
      • Now you are making non-arguments to invalidate an opposing point of view. Childish, really. Regardless, you'll be happy to know that I find your argument equally absurd. By your logic, "An article about an original novel can't be the base page. Because there's a film adaptation, we have to create ANOTHER page about the story itself!"

The character was created by writers hired by DC Comics for DC Comics publications. All subsequent films, video games, ETC, were adaptations of the comic book character. Go to the store and buy a movie with the Joker in it. I guarantee you it will say some variation of "Based on the characters from DC Comics" on the box. DarkKnight2149 00:38, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

The arguments have been made at Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Joker (comics)/archive1, and the decision to overthrow WP:COMICS ridicluous local consensus to privilege "comics" over "character" was made here. Also read up on Semantics—you really need to understand this. Educate yourself and stop wasting our time and patience with this basement-dwelling garbage. Curly "the jerk" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 00:55, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

I'll continue to not report that second "basement dwelling" personal attack (though if you keep making them, I might decide otherwise; comment on content, not contributor). But back to the discussion at hand, I'll read over those links, though I doubt they'll tell me anything that I won't disagree with. But I have to ask: where exactly do you think the character came from? DarkKnight2149 03:14, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

"where exactly do you think the character came from?" is an entirely irrelevant question. Do a little research and a little thinking and you'll learn why (it's really not in the least bit hard to understand). You'll notice the base Popeye article doesn't focus on comics, despite Thimble Theatre being the most widely distributed comic strip of the 1930s. This is standard throughout Misplaced Pages (Tarzan, Conan the Barbarian, Zorro, etc), and only the superhero subgroup of WP:COMICS tries to get away with doing otherwise.

"I doubt they'll tell me anything that I won't disagree with"—yes, you display the attitude of someone who intends to raise a ruckus no matter what. Curly "the jerk" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:21, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Assume bad faith, much? You really should lose the "I'm absolutely right and you're an idiot for disagreeing with me" arguments, because they aren't going to get you anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Your slippery slop, one-size-fits-all mentality doesn't work. Go look at any of these many superhero and supervillain articles and you will see how they are handled when compared to Popeye and the like.

Speaking of doing research, I suggest you read WP:NCC. According to those guidelines, "the agreed general disambiguation phrase used for articles related to comics, including creators, publications, and content, is "(comics)"." While all of the superhero articles are primarily about the comic version of the character (because that's where they originate), they always discuss the other media that the character appears in as well.

Joker (comics) is the base page. Period. The only reason that there are pages like Joker in other media (keywords: "other media") is because all of that information couldn't fit onto this article. And as per WP:NCC, the page is called "Joker (comics)" and not "Joker (character)". This page, as with all of the other superhero pages, also touches upon the other media versions, how he is characterised, the alternate interpretations of the character, cultural impact, ETC. And the article isn't any different from all of the other supervillain articles. DarkKnight2149 19:28, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

"Go look at any of these many superhero and supervillain articles"—yes, yes, we know. That's the problem—that the fanbois handle the superhero articles differently from all the other articles on Misplaced Pages for no reason whatsoever. WP:COMICS doesn't get to override these things. WP:COMICS doesn't WP:OWN characters that appear in comics.

"I suggest you read WP:NCC. According to those guidelines, blah blah blah"—yes, I've already pointed to where those guidelines have been overturned per WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. I fully realize you will not accept it, but that's for you and your mother to work out. The community has spoken.

"Joker (comics) is the base page. Period."—just as I predicted. Unfortunately for you, you don't get to make the decision. "Joker (comics)" cannot be the based page because (a) "Joker IS-A comics" doesn't work; and (b) the base page must be about the character, not the subtopic of the character's comics appearances. It's surprising how hard it is for you to grasp something so straightforward.

Of course, you'll be as disruptive about this stuff as you can, and thus torpedo the FAC while creating lots of pointless dramah. You're most definitely WP:NOTHERE. Curly "the jerk" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:11, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Except Joker (comics) isn't just about the comics character. It also has information regarding the general characterisation of the character, other media interpretations of the character, and alternative versions of him (like every other supervillain article). As previously mentioned, Joker in other media (again, other media) was split into another article because there was too much information to include in this one. Same with Alternative versions of Joker. And this page is called "Joker (comics)" because of WP:NCC. Like it or not, Joker (character) is completely useless and redundant, doing little aside from just repeating the information already on this page.

"that's for you and your mother to work out." If you spout one more personal attack, I'm reporting you. I've been generous enough to ignore all of your previous ones, but you are continuing to be uncivil. You claim that I'm trying to start some sort of "dramah", yet the only person I see insulting everyone who disagrees with them is you. DarkKnight2149 19:12, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

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