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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Citing sources page.

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view · edit Frequently asked questions Why doesn't Misplaced Pages require everyone to use exactly the same style for formatting citations on every single article, regardless of the subject? Different academic disciplines use different styles because they have different needs and interests. Variations include differences in the choice of information to include, the order in which the information is presented, the punctuation, and the name of the section headings under which the information is presented. There is no house style on Misplaced Pages, and the community does not want to have the holy war that will happen if we tell people that they must use the style preferred by scientists in articles about history or the style preferred by artists when writing about science. Editors should choose a style that they believe is appropriate for the individual article in question and should never edit-war over the style of citations. What styles are commonly used? There are many published style manuals. For British English the Oxford Style Manual is the authoritative source. For American English the Chicago Manual of Style is commonly used by historians and in the fine arts. Other US style guides include APA style which is used by sociologists and psychologists, and The MLA Style Manual which is used in humanities. The Council of Science Editors and Vancouver styles are popular with scientists. Editors on Misplaced Pages may use any style they like, including styles they have made up themselves. It is unusual for Misplaced Pages articles to strictly adhere to a formally published academic style. Isn't everyone required to use clickable footnotes like this to cite sources in an article? Yes. Footnotes (also called "<ref> tags") or shortened footnotes are now required in new articles, although some older articles may still use the now-deprecated citation system of inline parenthetical referencing (see WP:PARREF). Why doesn't Misplaced Pages require everyone to use citation templates in every single article? Citation templates have advantages and disadvantages. They provide machine-readable meta data and can be used by editors who don't know how to properly order and format a citation. However, they are intimidating and confusing to most new users, and, if more than a few dozen are used, they make the pages noticeably slower to load. Editors should use their best judgment to decide which format best suits each specific article. Isn't there a rule that every single sentence requires an inline citation? No. Misplaced Pages:Verifiability requires citations based on the content rather than the grammar. Sometimes, one sentence will require multiple inline citations. In other instances, a whole paragraph will not require any inline citations. Aren't general references prohibited? A general reference is a citation listed at the end of an article, without any system for linking it to a particular bit of material. In an article that contains more than a couple of sentences, it is more difficult to maintain text-source integrity without using inline citations, but general references can be useful and are not banned. However, they are not adequate if the material is one of four types of content requiring an inline citation. The article Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr. is an example of a featured article that uses some general references. Can I cite a sign? Yes, signs, including gravestones, that are displayed in public are considered publications. If the article is using citation templates, then use {{cite sign}}. You may also cite works of art, videos, music album liner notes, sheet music, interviews, recorded speeches, podcasts, television episodes, maps, public mailing lists, ship registers, and a wide variety of other things that are published and accessible to the public.

To find archives of this talk page, see this list. For talk archives from the previous Manual of Style (footnotes) page see Help talk:Footnotes.

Manual of Style

This page falls within the scope of the Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the Manual of Style (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.Manual of StyleWikipedia:WikiProject Manual of StyleTemplate:WikiProject Manual of StyleManual of Style This page falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Misplaced Pages Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate. Contributors are urged to review the awareness criteria carefully and exercise caution when editing. For information on Misplaced Pages's approach to the establishment of new policies and guidelines, refer to WP:PROPOSAL. Additionally, guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Misplaced Pages policies of Misplaced Pages's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.

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Citation overkill proposal at WP:Citation overkill talk page

Opinions are needed on the following: Misplaced Pages talk:Citation overkill#Citations. A permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:19, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Convert some refbegin lists from : to * lists

Please see/join this discussion about a bot conversion of some existing reference lists making use of unordered lists (*) instead of definition lists (:). —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 14:07, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

"Bare" / "Raw" URLs in common style guides

I had a disagreement with another editor over the use of URLs in citations that follow a major style guide (the Bluebook for U.S. legal works):

According to this page (see WP:CITESTYLE), Misplaced Pages does not have a single house style, though citations within any given article should follow a consistent style. A number of citation styles exist including those described in the Misplaced Pages articles for Citation, APA style, ASA style, MLA style, The Chicago Manual of Style, Author-date referencing, the Vancouver system and Bluebook.

Because the style guides are designed for use in print, they all include the URL spelled out rather than link an element of the citation like the Misplaced Pages Citation Style 1 templates, which link the title of the web page or article:

• Using cite web: Gee, Mark (November 11, 2016). "How-To: Photograph The Moon". Popular Photography. Bonnier Corporation. Retrieved 14 May 2017.
• Using cite news: Choe, Sang-Hun (May 13, 2017). "North Korea Launches a Missile, Its First Test After an Election in the South". The New York Times. Retrieved 14 May 2017.

The question is how should the URLs be formatted when using one of the major style guides outside Misplaced Pages, eg. APA, ASA, Bluebook, the Chicago Manual of Style, MLA, or Vancouver system? Should the URLs be formatted as prescribed in the style guides, with the URL displayed in full? Eg. (in Bluebook style):

Ronald Mann, Opinion analysis: Court uses cheerleader uniform case to validate broad copyright in industrial designs, SCOTUSblog (March 22, 2017), http://www.scotusblog.com/2017/03/opinion-analysis-court-uses-cheerleader-uniform-case-validate-broad-copyright-industrial-designs/

And is this type of URL really a "bare URL"? AHeneen (talk) 12:31, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

I wonder about accessibility. For readers using screen reader tools, how are those citations spoken? "aych tee tee pee ess colon slash slash double-yew double-yew double-yew period ..."? I can imagine that such readings would become unintelligible when they include percent encoding and query strings. I would think that all readers, regardless of visual abilities, would prefer url labels that are contextually meaningful rather than 'technically correct' per the style guide.

I suspect that most style guides are focused primarily on printed paper. While articles from Misplaced Pages can be printed, the encyclopedia is first and foremost an on-line resource. Rules that are necessary for printed paper may not be necessary here; the url rules being an exemplar. If a reader needs the url in its raw form, it is available with a mouse click.

The style used in Star Athletica, L. L. C. v. Varsity Brands, Inc. includes Id. and Ibid. which are dependent on the relative positioning of other citations in the article text. These are very fragile because anyone can move or insert or delete anything at any time and so break the tenuous connections between these dependent citations. Discouraged by WP:CITE; see WP:IBID.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:34, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

I replaced all uses of Id. and Ibid. in the article. Regarding readability, I am neutral: one the one hand, I can understand how the plain URLs can be annoying with screen readers, but, on the other hand, there's also the need to have the URL when printing (Citation style 1 templates print the URL). A relevant style guideline is MOS:LINKSTYLE: The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links. Users may print articles or read offline, and Misplaced Pages content may be encountered in republished form, often without links. AHeneen (talk) 15:20, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

Actually since 26 September 2015 cs1|2 templates did not include urls in print versions (discussion here). Apparently no one noticed so thanks for the prod to get it fixed.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:51, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Also linkrot affects these types of citation. Despite claims to the contrary, some of the URLs in the cited article would not be easy to find on archive.org as insufficient metadata is presented alongside to facilitate a suitable search should the URL itself just go dead. As for typing in URLs from printed material, does that really happen? In almost all such URLs in the cited article, there are over 100 characters to type in, many of which aren't English words. That's unlikely to be hand-typed by anyone ever. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:46, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

Could you also please explain how " Slip op. at 2-3 (quoting 799 F. 3d 468, 471, 491-492 (2015), available at http://www.leagle.com/decision/In%20FCO%2020150819101/VARSITY%20BRANDS,%20INC.%20v.%20STAR%20ATHLETICA,%20LLC" is sufficient enough for (when the link goes dead) anyone to go looking for the archived link? What does "Slip op. at 2-3 (quoting 799 F. 3d 468, 471, 491-492 (2015)" mean to anyone outside the author of the article please? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:53, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Finally, there's at least one other legal case nom at DYK right now, i.e. R v Jordan (2016). This appears to not use bare URLs. Does that make it wrong, right or something else? It certainly makes for a better reader experience, avoiding those barely parseable URLs. If this article can use this approach, why not Star Athletica, L. L. C. v. Varsity Brands, Inc.? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:49, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

• This guideline already explicitly recommends against the sufficiency of bare URLs: "improving existing citations by adding missing information, such as by replacing bare URLs with full bibliographic citations: an improvement because it aids verifiability, and fights linkrot;" (bold mine). I'm not sure why that is unclear for the OP, they are already being told, in plain English and in simple terms, to convert bare URLs as a best practice. Using MLA or Chicago Manual of Style for guidance where Misplaced Pages has none is fine, but we have explicit, in-house rules that couldn't be clearer. --Jayron32 16:31, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

• My 2c, as this has popped up in a number of places now. There are multiple competing issues here.

1. Bluebook is a valid citation style

2. As described, Bluebook is a bare citation contains bare URL's, as *Misplaced Pages* defines a bare citation URL.

3. Misplaced Pages encourages bare citations citations with bare URL's to be changed to a more informative citation. (WP:CS in general)

4. Misplaced Pages *heavily discourages* (to the level of having an arbitration case) changing an already established citation style to something else. (WP:CITEVAR specifically)

5. DYK doesnt allow bare citations.

So lets get the easy one out of the way first, DYK is its own project with its own rules. If you want your articles to be eligible for DYK, you have to satisfy the DYK requirements. This means not using a bare citation style URL. You can still use Bluebook or other 'bare' styles, but it wont be eligible for DYK. The ways around this (in order of effectiveness) 1. Change the citation style. 2. Convince reviewers at DYK to IAR this particular rule as in some areas 'Bare' styles are heavily used. 3. Convince DYK to change its rules on a more permanent basis to allow 'bare' citations in some areas. If you dont want to attempt any of those 3 actions, then keeping Bluebook (and other 'bare' styles) means an article is extremely unlikely to be accepted at DYK.

WP:CS in general encourages 'bare' citations to be improved. However WP:CITEVAR is explicit that no citation style can be forced on an article, and has the arbcom case to back it up. As WP:CS is a best practice guideline, it should be followed in most cases as following it results in a better article for the broad audience who are reading wikipedia. It does not mean it has to be followed in all cases, and where it conflicts with CITEVAR, something that has already been in front of ARBCOM is going to come out on top (absent another arbcom ruling).

So to sum up: You can use Bluebook (or other 'bare' styles) if you want, and anyone attempting to enforce a style against WP:CITEVAR risks coming up before ARBCOM, but you have to accept that while using a 'bare' citation style, the article will be locked out of a number of community-led processes like DYK. I would also say that the point of a[REDACTED] article is to appeal to a broad audience, and be understandable by a broad audience. If you use a citation style that is predominantly used by the legal profession, its not really tailoring the article to a broad audience is it, even if the article itself is a legal-based one. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:11, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Bluebook citations do not use bare citations because the URL is accompanied by other information that allows those who understand that citation style to locate the source even if the URL goes dead. Whether a citation is "bare" isn't about whether the URL is directly visible in the article, it's about whether the source can be found even if the URL goes dead. Jc3s5h (talk) 11:35, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

It uses a bare URL. Bare URL's for most[REDACTED] editors constitute a bare citation where the URL is the primary part of the citation. This isnt a view that I alone hold. You can go argue at DYK that using Bluebook isnt a bare citation style, but as far as I recall that argument was already held and rejected because DYK does not allow bare URL's. You are correct that it isnt entirely a bare-citation style, so I will amend the above. It doesnt change that ultimately if people want to use any style they can, but have to accept where that style conflicts with individual projects, they can either change it or not participate. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:40, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

If you look at WP:CITE, for which this is the talk page, you find

• improving existing citations by adding missing information, such as by replacing bare URLs with full bibliographic citations: an improvement because it aids verifiability, and fights linkrot;

There are a few other statements in WP:CITE that also indicate that whether a citation is bare or not has to do with the presence or absence of the necessary bibliographic information; there is no mention of any encouragement or discouragement of making the URL directly visible in the rendered article. Jc3s5h (talk) 12:00, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

However Bluebook citestyle routinely contains bare URL's which are disallowed in places like DYK. It still doesnt change the fact that you cant make someone replace bare URL's if they dont want to per CITEVAR. Regardless of what the wider WP:CITE says. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:10, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

You are correct, no one can make you improve the article (the correct link, by the way, is WP:NOTCOMPULSORY), however, you can also not make anyone at DYK post your article for whatever criteria they want. People have reached a consensus that bare URLs are insufficient. You can't make them post your article at DYK in contravention of that consensus. --Jayron32 14:05, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

I don't believe Bluebook allows bare URLs (as "bare" is understood in WP:CITE). Please provide a link to a law journal article where the journal requires Bluebook and the article contains a bare URL.

The bullet point I mentioned above,

• improving existing citations by adding missing information, such as by replacing bare URLs with full bibliographic citations: an improvement because it aids verifiability, and fights linkrot;

is part of the Generally considered helpful section. Actions in that section may be taken without asking for consensus on the talk page, and in spite of CITEVAR, unless there is something special about the article that would render the word "generally" inapplicable. So if an article contained, throughout its history, only bare URLs (as understood in WP:CITE), any editor could come along and rewrite all the citations to follow the citation style of the editor's choice without seeking consensus on the article's talk page. Jc3s5h (talk) 12:28, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

The way I read it, WP:CS is satisfied by a full Bluebook citation given the text such as by replacing bare URLs with full bibliographic citations, which does not require that a bare URL have 'text'-make sure to read the full clause. So I agree, from this point, this is a thing specific to WP:DYK (per OID). However, WP:Accessibility#Links says to avoid unintuitive link text--I wonder if that suggestion also extends to no link text. @Graham87: Thoughts on no-text URLs as an accessibility issue? What is the difference between a link, no text; a link, bad text, and a link, good text? --Izno (talk) 12:53, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

A link with no text generates exactly the same output for all readers (the URL), which can usually be skipped over fairly easily by arrowing past it. Graham87 13:55, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Maybe OID is correct to the extent that maybe the editors who determine whether an article appears in DYK won't accept "exposed" URLs. But DYK's Supplementary guidelines states "References in the article must not be bare URLs (e.g., http://example.com or )....

The linked WP:Bare URLs essay states "Note that some citation styles, such as the MLA style, use full bibliographic citation that happen to display the text of the URL in addition to proper identifying information, like the author, date, and title of the publication. These are not considered bare URLs." So if OID is correct, then it appears DYK isn't following its own guidelines. Jc3s5h (talk) 14:49, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Very good point, here is then full lead from WP:Bare URLs with my emphasis underlined:

A bare URL is a URL cited as a reference for some information in an article without any accompanying information about the linked page. In other words, it is just the text out of the URL bar of your browser copied and pasted into the Wiki text, inserted between the <ref> tags or simply provided as an external link, without title, author, date, or any of the usual information necessary for a bibliographic citation or useful for addressing link rot. Note that some citation styles, such as the MLA style, use full bibliographic citation that happen to display the text of the URL in addition to proper identifying information, like the author, date, and title of the publication. These are not considered bare URLs.

Here is what a true "bare URL" is on lines one and two (when not accompanied by any other bibliographic information) followed by Bluebook-style citations on lines three (an online-only source) and four (a print source, which a third party has made available online):

2. http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2017/03/22/copyrights-supreme-court-star-athletica-v-varsity-brands/id=79767/
3. Gene Quinn & Steve Brachmann, Copyrights at the Supreme Court: Star Athletica v. Varsity Brands, IPWatchdog (March 22, 2017), http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2017/03/22/copyrights-supreme-court-star-athletica-v-varsity-brands/id=79767/ ("The Court did not decide whether the chevron stripes were themselves original and thus subject to copyright protection once removed from the cheerleading uniform.").
4. 17 U.S.C. § 113(a), available at https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/113.

Example 4 is a properly-formatted legal citation to a statute. The citation style of legal citations varies by country. Here, "17 U.S.C. § 113(a)" means Title 17, Section 113, Subsection (a) of the United States Code. The "official" US Code is only published in print and the link is to a third-party source that has posted it online and is merely included in the citation for the benefit of the reader, so according to the Bluebook style, the link is preceded by "available at". That is basically akin to including a Google Books URL in a citation for a page of a print book and including "via Google Books". However, the Bluebook doesn't have a way of denoting the website name of the third-party URL, which is why it's just "available at https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/113". In example 3 above, the source is an internet article not published in print, so the URL is necessary to locate the original source (although the website name is included as part of the citation) and isn't preceded by "available at" because that URL is the original source. The most recent edition of the Bluebook (in 2015) now allows the addition of archival URLs in brackets after the URL, so when others added archival URLs to the article, I reformatted them to match the Bluebook citation style.

Most Misplaced Pages citations to particular cases (see case citation) are to cases that have been published in print (at least most case citations on Misplaced Pages), so like the US Code example above, the URL is a third-party source that merely benefits the reader and is not necessary to find the original source. For example, "Brown v. Board of Education, 347 U.S. 483 (1954)." was published beginning on page 483 of volume 347 of the United States Reports law reporter and was a US Supreme Court decision (because only year is provided; lower courts will be specified in the parentheses, eg. "Fla. 1954" indicates a decision of the Florida Supreme Court and "9th Cir. 2017" is a decision of the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit). Most published US cases can be quickly found online by entering the by entering the page, volume, and reporter (example for "410 U.S. 113"). However, the article that started this discussion was just decided in March, so it has not been published in a reporter yet. The "slip opinion" (abbreviated "slip op.") was released on the Supreme Court's website, which is why the article repeatedly uses the phrase "slip op." While it should be quite intuitive that the slip opinion being cited is that of the case that is the subject of the article, to avoid any ambiguity, I changed all cases to include the short citation "Star Athletica" before "slip op."

So the bottom line is that Bluebook-style citations and the citations in the article that caused this issue have sufficient information to locate the original source, which may be only available in print, and are not "bare URLs" as defined at WP:Bare URLs. (Note: I will be busy and may not reply until the weekend, May 20-21). AHeneen (talk) 08:21, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

I note you haven't answered a single one of my questions yet have made some edits to the article, I guess to cover some of those issues. You think a normal reader understands what "slip opinion" means? I think you're mistaken. All the jargon, the lingo, the in-universe stuff that is needed to relocate these possible dead links is sufficient to request that we have more human-readable content and less raw http. The bottom line is that raw URLs are not necessary, and should be avoided, as many legal articles seem to achieve without this huge debate to try to keep something which is hideous to look at, hard to maintain and impossible to follow. Let's stick to using regular Misplaced Pages style with citations and then these particular legal articles might be visible on the main page. Right now, with their plethora of raw URLs, they are not going anywhere near the main page. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:43, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Also, I checked every single legal case at featured article level, just Regents of the Univ. of Cal. v. Bakke had raw URLs, all of which would be subject to linkrot because the associated information would be probably inadequate to use the internet archive to find the details. Why would we use a style guide in this particular article which our featured articles about legal cases most definitely does not? It seems absurd. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:49, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

What questions haven't been answered? As mentioned in the very first two comments from Cwmhiraeth's talk page and several times here, WP:CITESTYLE allows any citation style and specifically includes the Bluebook, its usage is proper per Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Legal#Referencing style, and that WP:CITEVAR states that the citation style of an article shouldn't be changed because of personal preference or "to make it match other articles" (so your comments about FA law cases is a red herring). While not mentioned previously, note that the Bluebook has been included on this page (WP:CS) since at least as far back as the end of 2008 as a hatnote () and in prose worded similar to the current wording since at least the end of 2011 ().

I explained in my previous comment how the citations are basically structured so that the original source can be found. For sources originally/officially online (example 3 in my previous comment), the citation includes the author, title, website name, and accessdate so like Template:Cite web there is enough bibliographic info to locate the source (if it's still online). For sources originally/officially in print, the links to third-party postings of the content aren't subject to linkrot because there is enough information to locate the original source (even if you may not be familiar with how the citation is structured, because WP:CITEVAR allows Bluebook citations). Although not mentioned in any of my previous comments, WP:Linkrot says (emphasis added): The first way to prevent link rot is to avoid bare URLs by recording as much of the exact title, author, publisher and date of the source as possible. Optionally, also add the accessdate. If the link goes bad, this added information can help a future Wikipedian, either editor or reader, locate a new source for the original text, either online or a print copy. What matters is that someone can find the original source in the case of print sources, not the third party URL online. Plus, the text can be highlighted, right-clicked, and most internet browsers have an option to search the internet (using the browser's default search engine). In the case of laws, most are available from many third parties just from the first page of search results.

While covered by the remark on WP:CITEVAR (no need "to make it match other articles") in the first paragraph of this comment, R v Jordan is a Canadian case and uses a different style guide: the McGill Guide, which the MoS allows ("While any citation style may be used in an article (see WP:CITEVAR), for articles on cases, case law, or subjects which use a large amount of case law, it is recommended that editors use the referencing style for the jurisdiction that heard that case or for which that legal subject applies. ... Canada, consider using the McGill Guide.") While I am not familiar with that style guide, according to page 4 of this overview of McGill Guide citations, the internet references in R v Jordan are not properly formatted as the URL should appear in angle brackets (eg. "<https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2016/10/16/courts-scramble-under-new-rules-on-trial-delays.html>"). The two raw URLs in Regents of the Univ. of Cal. v. Bakke were not properly formatted: one was a bare URL (presumably added after passing FA) and the other should have been a piped link. I fixed both of them. AHeneen (talk) 09:47, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

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