Talk:Garry Kasparov: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 00:06, 10 November 2017 editLowercase sigmabot III (talk \| contribs)Bots, Template editors2,311,777 editsm Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Talk:Garry Kasparov/Archive 2) (bot← Previous edit		Revision as of 09:34, 10 November 2017 edit undoBrightR (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users6,257 edits →this article needs more references Next edit →
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	* {{tq\|i=y\|He first qualified for the ] at age 15 in 1978, the youngest ever player at that level}} - "This first tournament win over a grandmaster also brought me my first triumph in adult chess. By confidently taking first place in a strong field and surpassing the master norm by 3V2 points, I also reached a new level in public perception. As Botvinnik commented, this was the greatest success ever achieved by such a young player in the Soviet Union!" (page 118) At the very least the sentence needs to be rephrased because the phrasing is misleading. ''Winning points against a grandmaster'' elevated him to the youngest-ever at that level, not merely playing at the tournament.		* {{tq\|i=y\|He first qualified for the ] at age 15 in 1978, the youngest ever player at that level}} - "This first tournament win over a grandmaster also brought me my first triumph in adult chess. By confidently taking first place in a strong field and surpassing the master norm by 3V2 points, I also reached a new level in public perception. As Botvinnik commented, this was the greatest success ever achieved by such a young player in the Soviet Union!" (page 118) At the very least the sentence needs to be rephrased because the phrasing is misleading. ''Winning points against a grandmaster'' elevated him to the youngest-ever at that level, not merely playing at the tournament.
	* {{tq\|i=y\|He won the 64-player Swiss system tournament at ] on tiebreak over ] to capture the sole qualifying place.}} - "And so I reached the finish together with Ivanov, sharing 1st-2nd places. Fortune favoured me: I had the better Buchholz score. Nikitin: 'Garik jumped for joy. Where had the tiredness gone? Despite such an insipid finish he unexpectedly won the only qualifying place to the Premier League - a stunning success!'" (page 141) He didn't win a tiebreaker; they tied, and luckily Kasparov had the better score.		* {{tq\|i=y\|He won the 64-player Swiss system tournament at ] on tiebreak over ] to capture the sole qualifying place.}} - "And so I reached the finish together with Ivanov, sharing 1st-2nd places. Fortune favoured me: I had the better Buchholz score. Nikitin: 'Garik jumped for joy. Where had the tiredness gone? Despite such an insipid finish he unexpectedly won the only qualifying place to the Premier League - a stunning success!'" (page 141) He didn't win a tiebreaker; they tied, and luckily Kasparov had the better score.
⚫	**Unless "winning on tiebreak" in chess specifically means there was an additional game played, the statement is accurate: The tiebreaker is who has the better Buchholz score, and as Kasparov's was higher, he "won" that tiebreaker. <span style="font-family:Verdana; ">—''']''' <small>{]}</small></span> 23:32, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
	* {{tq\|i=y\|The next year, 1980, he won the ] in ], West Germany. Later that year, he made his debut as second reserve for the Soviet Union at the ] at ], ], and became a Grandmaster.}} - "By winning the international tournament in Baku, the 17-year-old Kasparov became the youngest grandmaster in the world." (page 217) Again at the very least it needs to be rephrased because the phrasing is misleading. He did not become a grandmaster at Valletta.		* {{tq\|i=y\|The next year, 1980, he won the ] in ], West Germany. Later that year, he made his debut as second reserve for the Soviet Union at the ] at ], ], and became a Grandmaster.}} - "By winning the international tournament in Baku, the 17-year-old Kasparov became the youngest grandmaster in the world." (page 217) Again at the very least it needs to be rephrased because the phrasing is misleading. He did not become a grandmaster at Valletta.

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	The fact that the article's phrasing is at the very least misleading is enough to show that such claims do need to be cited. ] 15:00, 9 November 2017 (UTC)		The fact that the article's phrasing is at the very least misleading is enough to show that such claims do need to be cited. ] 15:00, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
		⚫	::Unless "winning on tiebreak" in chess specifically means there was an additional game played, the statement is accurate: The tiebreaker is who has the better Buchholz score, and as Kasparov's was higher, he "won" that tiebreaker. <span style="font-family:Verdana; ">—''']''' <small>{]}</small></span> 23:32, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
			:::], but regardless, the other two {{t\|cn}} statements are definitely misleading, and the removal of the {{t\|cn}} tags was unmerited. ] 09:34, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Revision as of 09:34, 10 November 2017

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this article needs more references

There are several sections and numerous other paragraphs in this article that are missing citations. Specifically, the following sections:

"Early career"
"Toward the top"
"1984 World Championship"
"World Champion"
"Break with and ejection from FIDE"
"Losing the title and aftermath"
"My Great Predecessors series"
"Other post-retirement writing"

Per request by User:Beyond My Ken, the statements that I felt needed citations have been marked with {{cn}} tags. —howcheng {chat} 03:23, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Howchecng's CN tagging went well beyond any reasonable point into total WP:Tag bombing. Although ideally every fact on Misplaced Pages would be supported by a citation, WP:V doesn't actually require that, it requires that facts be verifiable and not that necessarily they be verified. Policy only requires disputed or controversial information to be cited. It's clear that Howcheng doesn't dispute the many, many bits of information he tagged, he simply CN tagged each and every statement which didn't have a reference. This is not reasonable, and actually defaces the article, making it more difficult for the user to read. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:39, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

You asked me to tag specific concerns, and I did. You cannot have it both ways. —howcheng {chat} 03:42, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Actually, I can, since your "concerns" were in no respect "specific". Tagging every single unreferenced fact is not having "specific concerns". Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:44, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

My specific concern is these facts need citations as per Misplaced Pages:Why most sentences should be cited and Misplaced Pages:Citation underkill. Furthermore, you misinterpret Misplaced Pages:Tag bombing. The nutshell of that essay says, "Adding multiple tags without explaining the reason is disruptive." I originally added a single tag, with explanation, which you removed, so I added multiple tags and explained my reasoning on this talk page. That's so not tag bombing. —howcheng {chat} 04:00, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

WP:V is central policy. Please read it, as you do not understand it properly. Both the other pages you cite are essays, and not policy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:04, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Discussion continues at WT:V. —howcheng {chat} 04:05, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

As I've explained to BMK the last time he pulled this, WP:V very clearly states any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material. The material was challenged in good faith, and now inline citations must be provided. BMK's removal of {{cn}} tags and {{refimprove}} tags is disruptive and characteristic of his WP:OWN behavior. At the very least, unreferenced or poorly referenced sections should be marked with {{refimprove}}. Bright☀ 13:20, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

These are the first four claims that were requested to be verified. I compare them against Kasparov's autobiograpgy:

He was being trained by Alexander Shakarov during this time - can be cited to the autobiography, page 42
He first qualified for the Soviet Chess Championship at age 15 in 1978, the youngest ever player at that level - "This first tournament win over a grandmaster also brought me my first triumph in adult chess. By confidently taking first place in a strong field and surpassing the master norm by 3V2 points, I also reached a new level in public perception. As Botvinnik commented, this was the greatest success ever achieved by such a young player in the Soviet Union!" (page 118) At the very least the sentence needs to be rephrased because the phrasing is misleading. Winning points against a grandmaster elevated him to the youngest-ever at that level, not merely playing at the tournament.
He won the 64-player Swiss system tournament at Daugavpils on tiebreak over Igor V. Ivanov to capture the sole qualifying place. - "And so I reached the finish together with Ivanov, sharing 1st-2nd places. Fortune favoured me: I had the better Buchholz score. Nikitin: 'Garik jumped for joy. Where had the tiredness gone? Despite such an insipid finish he unexpectedly won the only qualifying place to the Premier League - a stunning success!'" (page 141) He didn't win a tiebreaker; they tied, and luckily Kasparov had the better score.
The next year, 1980, he won the World Junior Chess Championship in Dortmund, West Germany. Later that year, he made his debut as second reserve for the Soviet Union at the Chess Olympiad at Valletta, Malta, and became a Grandmaster. - "By winning the international tournament in Baku, the 17-year-old Kasparov became the youngest grandmaster in the world." (page 217) Again at the very least it needs to be rephrased because the phrasing is misleading. He did not become a grandmaster at Valletta.

WP:The deadline is now. These four claims already made their way verbatim into books published in recent years and other online encyclopedias. While at the moment it's clear that they plagiarized or copied Misplaced Pages verbatim, in the future they might be used for circular sourcing, and the misinformation will be perpetuated. I'm reminded of another preposterous instance where BMK asked that an unsourced statement might stay a few more years to give editors proper time to cite it...

If, instead of bickering over how the article should be tagged or whether the statements should be sourced at all, you would have simply picked up a reliable source (like Kasparov's autobiograpgy) and attempted to verify the claims, you would have improved the article and corrected misleading statements, instead of standing in the way of improving it.

The fact that the article's phrasing is at the very least misleading is enough to show that such claims do need to be cited. Bright☀ 15:00, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Unless "winning on tiebreak" in chess specifically means there was an additional game played, the statement is accurate: The tiebreaker is who has the better Buchholz score, and as Kasparov's was higher, he "won" that tiebreaker. —howcheng {chat} 23:32, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

You are right, but regardless, the other two {{cn}} statements are definitely misleading, and the removal of the {{cn}} tags was unmerited. Bright☀ 09:34, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

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