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CNN poll

I think the last section about the 6-in-10 CNN poll should be removed. The last election cycle clearly showed how biased the polls of mainstream media are, especially CNN. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.30.69.251 (talk) 14:20, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Article Merge

The information on the Misplaced Pages page regarding the Mexico-United States barrier obviously stems from bias beliefs regarding the subject, as the very first sentence of the article proves with the term "illegal immigration." The series of walls and fences was NOT created to prevent undocumented immigrants from entering the United States. Both governments agreed to the construction due to the Battle of Los Ambos Nogales in 1918. Having suffered losses, both the United States and Mexico thought this solution best to avoid any future confrontations. If such irresponsible reporting is going to occur, then at the very least Misplaced Pages could reference the battle that took place on that fateful day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FraggleRockQueen (talk • contribs) 13:53, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Oppose--Rockero 05:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Oppose--The barrier itself should have its own article as it falls within a classification of walls and fences collectively known a Separation barrier. The barrier itself is separate from the border. Both barriers and borders change over time and not not neccessarily correspond to each other.--P Todd 15:03, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Oppose--John Kim 03:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Oppose obviously. This article needs expansion. The wall is hugely notable. savidan 03:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Oppose the articles are about different walls i suggest you shouldnt merge it.roadcrusher2 11:39am 6 October 2007 (ETZ) —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 15:40, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Oppose Different topics. Tynetrekker (talk) 22:23, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Agree The United States is not special. --GnarlyLikeWhoa (talk) 04:40, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Special ed, maybe CybergothiChé 16:06, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Oppose Setting aside the dilatory and acrimonious comments above, there is no justification for merger. The topic is important and notable, such that it warrants a freestanding article. Ergo Sum 01:35, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Tortilla Wall

Which parts are called the Tortilla Wall? --24.94.189.11 18:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Artists react to the proposed 700 mile Border Fence: In Nov. 2006 a group of artists in Los Angeles, California decided to implement a project called The Great Wall of Chinga. By doing so they reached out to fellow artists across the US to create a body of work around this issue. This became an inagural project for a new organization they called The Ministry of Culture. This name was chosen to bring attention to the lack of governmental support for the arts & culture in a country where its population is made up of practically every nationality on earth. The information on this project can be found at: .

This is a notable reaction to the barrier, and deserves mention in the article. --Ramsey2006 04:11, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I suggest merging the article Tortilla Wall into this one. Sdenny123 13:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The article Tortilla Wall should probably be included here, if it's at all accurate. Frankly, as a long time San Diego resident, I'm not aware that the term "Tortilla Wall" has ever applied to the border fence. Rather than nominating that artice for deletion, I think it discusses the same things this artice does here. --Eric Bekins 22:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Oppose merge See talk page of other article for massive opposition to this poor merger proposal. Tynetrekker (talk) 22:24, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Note: there is no "massive opposition" to the merger proposal on Talk:Tortilla_Wall, in fact the other article talk page has no opposition on it at all. There was no need to exaggerate, especially something so easy to verify as being untrue. Radagast83 (talk) 05:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Company building the border fence pays a fine for hiring illegal immigrants

PDF link - http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/cas/press/cas61214-GoldenStateFence.pdf Is there a place for this in the article? Are there arguments about the pros and cons (and in this case irony) of this border fence in this article? Hnc 20:29, 20 March 2007 (UTC) Also http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20061214-1922-bn14golden.html Hnc 20:34, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Improper Use

Is it possible for someone to deal with the person/persons who've posted the Lou Dobbs junk on this talk page, maybe send a warning? Windscar77 09:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

'The intention of these barriers is to force illegal immigrants to cross the border through more difficult lands, with the assumption that this will deter illegal immigration'. This currently appears in the article and seems to be vandalism. The introduction of the article also seems to be somewhat POV, and a great deal of the article is unsourced. omnijohn 03:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Jet Pack

If the intention is to deter illegal immigration, then doesn't the invention of a sub-$10,000 jet pack allow anyone to cross the fence at virtually any point? It isn't difficult to imagine someone offering $100 jet pack rides for anyone to cross the fence. There's some irony there. Building a fence to protect a capitalist system that invents a jet pack, which affords people the opportunity to make money offering a service to (illegally) enter into a capitalist system.

http://jetpackaviation.com/the-jumpjet/jb-9/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.66.130.12 (talk) 21:47, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

660,000 in 6 month period

Is there any independent verification of the figure of 660,000+ people detained by immigration authorities between October 1, 2003, and April 30, 2004? This figure is HIGHLY suspect. According to the US census bureau figures, the country's net migration rate is 3.05 per 100,000 which translates to about 100,000 people entering America every year. If this figure is right, that means more than 1.3 million people attempted to enter the US during a 1 year period, more than half of the entire US Prison Population...unless there was a severe drop off during the second half of the period for some reason. Also, it seems a bit odd that the border patrol could have the capacity to detain nearly 4,000 people EVERY DAY. Looks to me like one of the minutemen has taken a break from wrangling Mexicans so as to engage in some good old fashioned fearmongering. 193.129.64.154 08:44, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Just wanted to comment that: (1) with 11,000 agents working full-time, 4,000 per day is entirely believable. (2) Many people attempt to cross multiple times (until they finally succeed); The figure may be "attempted crossings"; there is anecdotal evidence of, say, San Diego intercepting 1000 people on a busy night, and promptly busing them back to Mexico . (Time magazine, June 30, 2008, p.34-35). (3) Your comment about the size of the US Prison Population reminds me that it is often reported that it is infeasible to put the number intercepted in prison, even for a week or two. Given 52 weeks in the year, that may also suggest large interception numbers -- or maybe not, given our prisons already frequently hit their capacity. Just exploring all angles... ToolmakerSteve (talk) 02:30, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

United_States–Mexico_barrier

Is this truly the best article-name? Does anyone perceive any resemblance to United_States_of_Mexico, United_States_of_America? United_States–Mexico_barrier, really?

Keith_Olbermann, msnbc, claims that the wall, the fence, ends @ Ray_Lee_Hunt's property-line, property-border. I've been trying google; however, no luck, yet.

Please do help.

Thank You,

] 02:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

NOT TRUE. The fence is going to run parallel to and adjacent to his property. —Preceding unsigned comment added by La Lydia (talk • contribs) 02:12, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Controversy Section

Could this be possibly expanded to its own article if we found enough sources? This is an extremely controversial issue, and a lot of people are going back and forth over it, moreso than can be captured by a quick blurb. Ideally we could have people from different areas where the wall is being built contribute information about protests and rebuttals as they occur.

Pylze (talk) 20:58, 17 March 2008 (UTC)Pylze

Lead bias

The lead section makes it sounds like everyone against the wall is "pro-Mexico", when actually some people are against it only because it seems like throwing rocks in a creek to try to stop it flowing. Wnt (talk) 18:30, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

also, people can be against the wall for its role in effectively splitting up communities. that is not "pro-Mexican" it is pro-human. isprawl 17:14, 25 March 2009.

Other options?

"Yes there is! Build commerce or other human activity on the border. It is locations where there is no human activity where problems occur. This issue mostly applies to urban areas. Rural areas have different problems than do the urban areas. Both sides of the border need to be compatiable and have similar uses or else commerce will not buy into the area. At bordercommerce.com, there is an option proposed to create zones for commerce, open public lands and other uses. What is most needed is a code book that has been approved by Federal, State, and Local governments as how to deal with each mile along the border and how those security measures will be implemented. Otherwise, you have the Federal government imposing its unilateral decision on the border but that does not guarantee security!"

This section is written very poorly and seems to exist only to express one person's view and advertise a website. I'm deleting it.Ueli-PLS (talk) 19:39, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Poorly written indeed, and uninformed. "It is locations where there is no human activity where problems occur." I think that person meant that problems occur where there is no human activity. If there is no human activity, then are the animals causing the problems? As a matter of fact, border crossing in urban areas is extremely easy, because the illegal entrants can quickly disappear into the population. Border crossing in remote areas is more dangerous for the illegal entrant, and they are more easily observed and tracked in such a setting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by La Lydia (talk • contribs) 02:21, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

"Impact of the Barriers on Illegal Crossings" section needs serious rewriting

I'm trying to research available evidence about this topic, and IMHO this section is far from Misplaced Pages standards on several grounds: (1) (IMHO) it has an anti-wall bias; (2) it is largely unsourced; (3) It includes selective facts; for instance, citing that the increase in deaths in the Sonoran desert section has gone up 3x, without careful research about deaths in neighboring sections, ignores the obvious truth that if large numbers of people who were going to cross elsewhere, are now attempting to cross there, then whatever is leading to their deaths will happen there, increasing the numbers. So, is that desert actually increasing deaths? Impossible to tell based on what is presented so far. I've marked this section both POV and factually disputed; I would greatly appreciate authoritative references, and a proper analysis in the context of neighboring sections. ToolmakerSteve (talk) 01:30, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

"United Stated Border Patrol" has relevant material

... in its "Expansion" section, complete with references -- should some of that be HERE?. ALSO, these references show sources of OPPOSITION that include ENVIRONMENTAL and LOCAL LANDOWNERS and SPLIT COMMUNITIES -- shouldn't these be included in this article's lead paragraph, to show the depth of controversy around this topic?:

The Secure Fence Act, signed by President George W. Bush on October 26, 2006, has met with much opposition. In October 2007, environmental groups and concerned citizens filed a restraining order hoping to halt the construction of the fence, set to be built between the United States and Mexico. The act mandates that the fence be built by December 2008. Ultimately, the United States seeks to put fencing around the 1945-mile border, but the act requires only 700 miles of fencing. DHS secretary Michael Chertoff has bypassed environmental and other oppositions with a waiver that was granted to him by Congress in Section 102 of the act, which allows DHS to avoid any conflicts that would prevent a speedy assembly of the fence.

This action has led many environment groups and landowners to speak out against the impending construction of the fence. ) Environment and wildlife groups fear that the plans to clear brush, construct fences, install bright lights, motion sensors, and cameras will scare wildlife and endanger the indigenous species of the area. Environmentalists claim that the ecosystem could be affected due to the fact that a border fence would restrict movement of all animal species, which in turn would keep them from water and food sources on one side or another. Desert plants would also feel the impact, as they would be uprooted in many areas where the fence is set to occupy.

Property owners in these areas fear a loss of land. Landowners would have to give some of their land over to the government for the fence. Citizens also fear that communities will be split. Many students travel over the border every day to attend classes at the University of Texas at Brownsville. Brownsville mayor Pat Ahumada favors alternative options to a border fence. He suggests that the Rio Grande River be widened and deepened to provide for a natural barrier to hinder illegal immigrants and drug smugglers. ToolmakerSteve (talk) 02:09, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

OTM = Other Than Mexican

I see there's a "citation needed" for the CBP usage of the acronym "OTM" as a designation of non-Mexican detainees. I can't find a glossary entry, but the usage is common enough in releases, such as this one. the fourth paragraph reads:

Reductions have carried over into other areas. For example, the number of Other Than Mexican (OTM) aliens apprehended in Del Rio Sector has declined from the peak in FY05 with more than 30,000 arrested followed by a dramatic reduction to 12,275 in FY06. In FY 07 6,634 were apprehended.

Does this really need a citation, and if so, how do you cite poorly-documented jargon? - JeffJonez (talk) 17:08, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

OTM's is a term used by the government: http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/54276.pdf, and www.house.gov/sites/members/tx10_mccaul/pdf/Investigaions-Border-Report.pdf

OTM's is also a term used by the media: www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162199,00.html, and www.latinamericanstudies.org/immigration/otm.htm.

Not that it makes it wrong or right, but to illustrate its common usage, I'll tell you that we use it frequently in my Border Security class. The professor is Mexican and anti-fence. Sensitivities aside, a clear majority of illegal immigrants are Mexican. I think the usage of OTM's most commonly refers to terrorists who cross illegally. Or the concern that terrorists *could* cross as easily as a common migrant worker or narcotrafficker. --Lacarids (talk) 00:19, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Number of beach border pictures

Three are too many. One is enough. In the discussion of the 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center there was debate on whether or not there were too many pictures of the Center in that article.

It doesn't matter how many pictures there are of the wall/fence/thing on the beach, no matter at how ever many angles the pictures are shot at readers will still get the picture. Thoughts? --GnarlyLikeWhoa (talk) 04:37, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I appreciate pictures and sometimes I get more out of them than the written articles! Frognsausage (talk) 10:38, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Border Field State Park is in Imperial Beach California not San Ysidro. It is in the city limits of Imperial Beach. (Pacific Ocean) — Preceding unsigned comment added by FrysUniverse (talk • contribs) 06:40, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Tunnels?

At least 40 tunnels have been discovered under the Barrier.

I think a report on these would reflect on the effectiveness or otherwise of the operation as a whole. 86.144.192.162 (talk) 12:47, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Types of fencing?

How about a section on how the border barrier is constructed, detailing the different types of fencing? In Southern California alone, it ranges from double-layered barbed-wire fencing to a ten-foot high steel mat, even "Normandy barriers" designed to stop cars but not people. A couple of good sources:

http://americanpatrol.com/ABP/SURVEYS/BORDER-2009/Border-Main-20009.html

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/us-southern-border-fence-tech-map —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.181.172.134 (talk) 19:33, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Undocumented Immigrants is Propaganda-Speak

Since the issue is not and never has been "lack of papers," referring to illegal invaders as "undocumented immigrants" is propaganda-speak. The term "invaders" is the accurate term. (EnochBethany (talk) 00:50, 27 March 2013 (UTC))

Beach pic caption

A family enjoys the beach at Border Field State Park on the US side

Is that meant to show how easy it is to swim through the barrier? Valetude (talk) 12:33, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Map

Is there a map available of where these barriers are? If not, is there data such that one could be made? 108.202.194.102 (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Length

The intro is confusing. It talks of physical walls and "virtual barrier" . It is said that the barrier is 580 of the 1,989 mile border. Does that mean 580 miles of physical wall and 1,409 miles of "virtual barriers" or 580 miles of both?Royalcourtier (talk) 04:23, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

Tear down this wall

Enrique Peña Nieto did not mock Reagan's 1985 speech. He was mocking Americans today by quoting fro  Reagan.Royalcourtier (talk) 04:28, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

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Use of FY (eg FY 2007)

I do not believe FY is a well-known abbreviation. At a guess it might mean "Financial Year", but even then I doubt that is standard in different countries. 217.130.245.188 (talk) 17:09, 18 June 2017 (UTC)TomPC 18 Jun 2017

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Center for Immigration Studies

I recently reverted an attempt to exclude relevant information about the Center for Immigration Studies from the article. Trump refers to a study done by this extreme right wing hate group to bolster his border control arguments, and I think it is important to state the type of group it is to give proper context. -- Scjessey (talk) 10:33, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Including the label "hate group" is relevant here, as cited.

While those arguing one side or another of an issue will often attempt to add qualifications attacking a source, it should be noted that the source cited for Trump quoting the Center for Immigration Studies directly called them a "hate group". That I agree the label is highly relevant here, my support doesn't mean as much as the reliable source's. - SummerPhD 13:30, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

I preserved the SLPC's "hate group" label as a compromise but reverted the copyedits which had no consensus and the unsourced "anti-immigrant" claim. 2A02:4780:BAD:25:FCED:1FF:FE25:109 (talk) 17:15, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

I note you have received a discretionary sanctions warning, 2A02:4780:BAD:25:FCED:1FF:FE25:109/((u|Darryl.jensen}}. Rather than declaring a "compromise" and instituting it, I'd suggest a bit of discussion. The source is quite clear that the hate group with "political bias" "advocates for reductions in legal immigration". Heck, they're the "go-to think tank for the anti-immigrant movement with its reports and staffers often cited by media and anti-immigrant politicians". - SummerPhD 17:41, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

I don't know why a consensus would be required for simple, sensible copy edits. Hard to assume good faith with this SPA IP editor. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:51, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

"Tout" as in "peddle, sell, hawk" wasn't neutral. We can work on a neutral "sensible" rephrasing. 2A02:4780:BAD:25:FCED:1FF:FE25:109 (talk) 17:56, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

"Tout" means promote, which is what Trump was doing. Perfectly neutral. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:04, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Are you a native english speaker? Read the second definition then look up the word "connotation." 2A02:4780:BAD:25:FCED:1FF:FE25:109 (talk) 18:09, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm British, which almost certainly means my English is better than yours. And who gives a fuck about the second definition when the first definition is accurate? -- Scjessey (talk) 18:19, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Alright enough personal stuff. How can we be sure readers won't infer the 2nd definition? We can't so we should pick a better word. 2A02:4780:BAD:25:FCED:1FF:FE25:109 (talk) 18:34, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Why do you keep saying I'm jensen when I told you I'm not? The issue here is pretty clear - the text said the group was "anti-immigrant" but the source it was cited to didn't, so I removed it. The rest sounds like a bunch of WP:OR and WP:SYN. Second: the source doesn't call CIS a hate group, it says the SPLC does, so your calling it a hate group toes the line of WP:BLPGROUP. 2A02:4780:BAD:25:FCED:1FF:FE25:109 (talk) 17:56, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

This wikilawyering is unusual in an editor with so few edits. Very suspicious. This group is an anti-immigrant group of racist xenophobes with close ties to white supremacist groups. No way is BLPGROUP a factor. Your edits are very troubling. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:04, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Since when is following policy wikilawyering? I notice you didn't respond to the policy issues, like "not supported by the source", which is a pretty big one. Be suspicious all you want but do it somewhere else. This page is for article improvement. 2A02:4780:BAD:25:FCED:1FF:FE25:109 (talk) 18:09, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Everything I added to the article, and everything SPECIFICO added, were according to policy. The fact that the Center for Immigration Studies is a hate group was mentioned in the source. Following a complaint by another editor, I made sure it had proper attribution (even though it was arguably unnecessary). In contrast, you have used policy to try to present this hate group in a more positive light. You then falsely claimed I canvassed, when I was clearly seeking advise about my own behavior. You have no leg to stand on. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:19, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Stop trying to obfuscate. "Anti-immigrant" was unsourced. CIS is a small org and BLPGROUP applies. "Anti-immigrant" was removed per BLPGROUP so you don't restore it without clear consensus. Simple. 2A02:4780:BAD:25:FCED:1FF:FE25:109 (talk) 18:34, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

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