Revision as of 02:20, 8 December 2020 editGuerillero (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Checkusers, Administrators26,523 edits →Rope extended: my rope← Previous edit | Revision as of 02:40, 8 December 2020 edit undoGPinkerton (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users9,112 edits →Rope extended: Replying to Guerillero (using reply-link)Next edit → | ||
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:::::::Both Debresser and me were blocked. I have not since removed his text, though I still think "unlikely" misrepresents the "could not" of the source. That was a long time ago, and I had not done much editing before that. (Although my account is older, I have had more time to contribute since this spring ...) ] (]) 01:59, 8 December 2020 (UTC) | :::::::Both Debresser and me were blocked. I have not since removed his text, though I still think "unlikely" misrepresents the "could not" of the source. That was a long time ago, and I had not done much editing before that. (Although my account is older, I have had more time to contribute since this spring ...) ] (]) 01:59, 8 December 2020 (UTC) | ||
:::::::: post-1453 middle east, FWIW. --] <sup>]</sup> 02:09, 8 December 2020 (UTC) | :::::::: post-1453 middle east, FWIW. --] <sup>]</sup> 02:09, 8 December 2020 (UTC) | ||
:::::::::That assessment appears to be based on my editing of Hagia Sophia being "highly problematic", which I don't think is at all justified. I have written nearly 50% of that article, replacing some very dubious material and incompetent bungling from year ago, and writing from scratch most of the recent politics sections, involving middle eastern geopolitics, and the only objections have been to particular 15th-century legends (and not others). ] (]) 02:40, 8 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
:::: (ec) I think that's a good topic ban limitation - keep it in the Middle East countries though - Hellespont and east of that. I'd lean post-1453, but post-632 would also work. Or just a ban from anything broadly related to Kurds would also work. GP needs to start listening to other folks when they give him advice - being right in a content discussion isn't everything on Misplaced Pages - collaborative editing IS, however. They did get drawn into a buzzsaw, but if they want to be effective, they need to edit in areas that are not as emotionally charged for them so they can learn the ropes of Misplaced Pages. {{unsigned|Ealdgyth}} | :::: (ec) I think that's a good topic ban limitation - keep it in the Middle East countries though - Hellespont and east of that. I'd lean post-1453, but post-632 would also work. Or just a ban from anything broadly related to Kurds would also work. GP needs to start listening to other folks when they give him advice - being right in a content discussion isn't everything on Misplaced Pages - collaborative editing IS, however. They did get drawn into a buzzsaw, but if they want to be effective, they need to edit in areas that are not as emotionally charged for them so they can learn the ropes of Misplaced Pages. {{unsigned|Ealdgyth}} | ||
{{OD}} Here is my offer. {{U|El C}} might offer you a better one, but this is mine. A 1 year topic ban from post-1453 middle east. After 6 months of issue free editing under the topic ban, approach me with a single article that you would like to improve (that is reasonable) and a plan to improve it and I will give you a carve out for that article. If you can show that you can edit without problems for six months and a carve out, I would be happy to lift the topic ban early. --] <sup>]</sup> 02:20, 8 December 2020 (UTC) | {{OD}} Here is my offer. {{U|El C}} might offer you a better one, but this is mine. A 1 year topic ban from post-1453 middle east. After 6 months of issue free editing under the topic ban, approach me with a single article that you would like to improve (that is reasonable) and a plan to improve it and I will give you a carve out for that article. If you can show that you can edit without problems for six months and a carve out, I would be happy to lift the topic ban early. --] <sup>]</sup> 02:20, 8 December 2020 (UTC) |
Revision as of 02:40, 8 December 2020
Bibliography
Articles I wrote ab initio:
- Column of Leo (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Church of St Acacius (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Gaius Furius Chresimus (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- General Post Office, Edinburgh (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- General Post Office, Old Delhi (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- General Register House (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Mausoleum of Honorius (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Articles I largely or wholly wrote or rewrote:
- Anicia Juliana (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Basilica (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Bulgaria during World War II (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Claudius Drusus (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Hagia Sophia (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Gothic Architecture (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- The Holocaust in Bulgaria (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Theodosian dynasty (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Valentinianic dynasty (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Walter Elliot (Scottish politician) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- 2020 Ghazanchetsots Cathedral shelling (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Articles I contributed to:
- Great Barrington Declaration (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Long Covid (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Valens (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Theodosius I (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Constantine the Great and Christianity (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Constans II (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Constantine II (emperor) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Constans (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Plum-headed parakeet (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
A barnstar for you!
The Barnstar of Diligence | |
For your work at The Holocaust in Bulgaria (formerly Rescue of the Bulgarian Jews). Bob not snob (talk) 05:49, 3 May 2020 (UTC) |
A barnstar for you!
The Resilient Barnstar | |
I admire your astounding resilience with which you approach criticism directed at you. You don't edit war, but expand articles significantly, and as to me really well sourced to make a point. Just brilliant. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 22:33, 25 November 2020 (UTC) |
December 2020
You have been blocked indefinitely from editing because it appears that you are not here to build an encyclopedia. If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page:{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}
. Guerillero 15:50, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
Guerillero This is wrong on both counts! I have made thousands of constructive edits and this is simply shooting the messenger! You cannot possible have had time to look into all those diffs; so this is just reflexive. GPinkerton (talk) 15:54, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- Seeing your third attempt to reopen your closed thread an ANI, it is fairly clear to me that you are here to right great wrongs and not build an encyclopedia. --Guerillero 15:59, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- Guerillero That's just not correct. Examination of the issue will show I am trying to preserve NPOV against intractable behavioural issues which long predate any involvement I had in the issue, with which I have no connection. I repeat that this is shooting the messenger. I have only made constructive edits to the relevant article, have made thousands of constructive edits on wholly unrelated subjects over three years, and far from RGW I am merely trying to align the article to what the academic sources say, an attempt resisted by the editors I have reported and whose behaviour administrators keep ignoring. What is NOTHERE about making an AN report? Where else would my concerns be addressed? GPinkerton (talk) 16:06, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- Girth Summit, Valereee is it normal policy to indefinitely block an editor for raising concerns about WP:CRUSH, and WP:TE at WP:AN? I'm very worried about this. GPinkerton (talk) 16:13, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- Ivanvector has also identified that there is a problem with the subject area; perhaps they will comment on the reaction of Guerillero to my WP:AN reports? GPinkerton (talk) 19:02, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- Ivanvector can you help me understand what I need to do remove this block? GPinkerton (talk) 23:09, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- Guerillero, I would agree with GPinkerton that they have made a lot of positive contributions to wikipedia. Take it from a guy who has been in many disputes with GPinkerton. I think an indef is too harsh.VR talk 16:28, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- Guerillero, this is quite a weird indef. block for an editor who was had good arguments in the discussions and mostly underlined them with good sources, at least in the discussions I was involved with him. To bloc someone who argues with sources and is involved in several currently ongoing discussions for filing an ANI report straightly indef. within the personal! capacity of an admin, is not good for the democratic spirit of Misplaced Pages. In the same discussion there are multiple denials of a whole ethnic region cited in numerous sources, which just goes praised by the Admins with this bloc. With this block the ISIS-Assad-Erdogan POV wins over democracy.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 21:53, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- User:Paradise Chronicle, if you are contesting this block, attacking the blocking admin is usually not a good idea--"weird" is not a good term to use, and blaming the admin for allowing some sort of ISIS victory is definitely the wrong way to go about it. Guerillero has been an administrator for almost a decade, and they know what they are doing. That doesn't always make them right, but it certainly means that they thought carefully about the matter. Please find a more appropriate way to voice your concerns. Drmies (talk) 23:13, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- Drmies, I fully understand Paradise Chronicle's frustration in the way this issue has been handled over the past six months; I would never have taken the case to ANI if it had not been a serious and intractable problem that had been going five months or more already. GPinkerton (talk) 23:22, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- User:Paradise Chronicle, if you are contesting this block, attacking the blocking admin is usually not a good idea--"weird" is not a good term to use, and blaming the admin for allowing some sort of ISIS victory is definitely the wrong way to go about it. Guerillero has been an administrator for almost a decade, and they know what they are doing. That doesn't always make them right, but it certainly means that they thought carefully about the matter. Please find a more appropriate way to voice your concerns. Drmies (talk) 23:13, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- Guerillero, this is quite a weird indef. block for an editor who was had good arguments in the discussions and mostly underlined them with good sources, at least in the discussions I was involved with him. To bloc someone who argues with sources and is involved in several currently ongoing discussions for filing an ANI report straightly indef. within the personal! capacity of an admin, is not good for the democratic spirit of Misplaced Pages. In the same discussion there are multiple denials of a whole ethnic region cited in numerous sources, which just goes praised by the Admins with this bloc. With this block the ISIS-Assad-Erdogan POV wins over democracy.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 21:53, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry Drmies, but admins are refusing to address this very Erdogan-Assad POV (both often called Dictators by the Academics and their racist Anti-Kurdish stance is also very well documented by the Academics) and prefer to block the ones who raise their concerns about it for "what ever". (filing an extensive and well-prepared report about this very topic!???). Some of the reported also called areas and towns which were liberated from ISIS and Jihadis (the terrorist faction in the Syrian Civil War) Kurdish occupied multiple times. You can't find a reliable source for such POV. Just check the discussions GPinkerton has brought into the ANI.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 00:22, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- Paradise Chronicle, you should make this argument somewhere else. GPinkerton (talk) 00:27, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'll try to bring it up at the next Admin elex, there several admins can read it. Seeing you being blocked for filing an extensive and well prepared report, makes me feel that there is no remedy against ISIS-Assad and Erdogan POV in Syria Kurdistan for now. I hope your request is successful, but let's see.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 01:03, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- Paradise Chronicle, you should make this argument somewhere else. GPinkerton (talk) 00:27, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry Drmies, but admins are refusing to address this very Erdogan-Assad POV (both often called Dictators by the Academics and their racist Anti-Kurdish stance is also very well documented by the Academics) and prefer to block the ones who raise their concerns about it for "what ever". (filing an extensive and well-prepared report about this very topic!???). Some of the reported also called areas and towns which were liberated from ISIS and Jihadis (the terrorist faction in the Syrian Civil War) Kurdish occupied multiple times. You can't find a reliable source for such POV. Just check the discussions GPinkerton has brought into the ANI.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 00:22, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- I found out Guerillero is a candidate for the ArbCom and I asked him for a comment about this block there. Maybe he wants to block all the ones who put up a report about an area where no admin is active? Who knows?They seem a decent candidate though, but in this block they made a mistake.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 20:33, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- Paradise Chronicle, you can try raising the issue yourself; feel free to re-use any part of any of my reports, or all of them. GPinkerton (talk) 01:06, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- GPinkerton, I know that subject area is a mess, and I have no doubt that there is a huge amount of disruption, and likely socking and meating. But it's convoluted and there are no easy answers. I do not know what happened at ANI, but I do know that if an admin says "don't do that", it's a good idea not to do that. My problem with Paradise's edits wasn't their advocacy or the place of it, but the tone and the word choice. "Admins are refusing to address..." is not something I really believe: it all depends on the forum and what the questions are. I know there's a request at ArbCom for disruption in the Horn of Africa; maybe this is another thing ArbCom should handle, though I am not convinced.
What I do know, again, is that Guerillero will not have made this call lightly. I am not familiar with what led to the block but I know you a little bit now and I'm sorry to say that I am not surprised. I do not think you are a net negative, and I think that an unblock request can be successful, but you need to drop the urgency and let go of the immediate need to get back to those articles or whatever (we're not the news anyway), and then draft a good request. As long as your desire to edit seems to be driven by the apparent need to right something that's wrong, and as long as that seems to go at the expense of normal procedures and collegial behavior, you are probably not going to be successful. Note: I am talking about appearances, and in the happy absence of much factual knowledge here. Feel free to me ping me if you think I can be of help--but please keep in mind that above all else I prefer economy; few words are best. Good luck. Drmies (talk) 01:57, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- Drmies, thanks for your comments and advice. The issue no-one seems interested in addressing is one related not to news but to the 1960s and before (especially the immediate aftermath of WWI) and the relationship of one to the other. This is all explained in the reports I have made (which I have a distinct feeling no-one has actually read properly) but because it isn't a well-known subject (or is being dismissed as partisan or related to the civil war) I am being unjustly accused of trying to "right great wrongs", whereas all I have done is make constructive edits and then discovered a pattern of behaviour that is, as I say, a massive problem.
- More than anything I'd like someone to actually look in detail at the point I and others have been making about this problem; I think it would be discovered quite quickly there actually are easy answers in this case. I finished making the report at 15:49, 4 December 2020. Guerillero blocked me for it one minute or less afterwards. No-one can have read the report that quickly, examined the diffs, and come to a considered conclusion about the issue in that time. If no-one is going to believe that administrator oversight can fail in such a big way, then what hope is there? People seem quick to claim the "right great wrongs" line, but where is the actual evidence for that and why is no-one able to say I am actually wrong about any of this? GPinkerton (talk) 02:15, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- GPinkerton, I know that subject area is a mess, and I have no doubt that there is a huge amount of disruption, and likely socking and meating. But it's convoluted and there are no easy answers. I do not know what happened at ANI, but I do know that if an admin says "don't do that", it's a good idea not to do that. My problem with Paradise's edits wasn't their advocacy or the place of it, but the tone and the word choice. "Admins are refusing to address..." is not something I really believe: it all depends on the forum and what the questions are. I know there's a request at ArbCom for disruption in the Horn of Africa; maybe this is another thing ArbCom should handle, though I am not convinced.
- Paradise Chronicle, you can try raising the issue yourself; feel free to re-use any part of any of my reports, or all of them. GPinkerton (talk) 01:06, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- Well Drmies, I was at multiple noticeboards and all admins did were blocking or call to order for not following "rules". I can't recall an admin who came into the dispute expanding the article, providing irrefutable facts in the article or ruling for or against academic sources. They didn't even question Amr Ibn for only removing academic sources=evidence for the existence of Syrian Kurdistan. A non-googlebale PhD source made its way against many (more than 10, WP:Overkill) academic googleable sources through a large part of the discussion. The PhD book review calling Western Kurdistan an "invention" was used in the lead for quite some time. We have here an issue between academic sources or WP:OR and POV. This doesn't require much admin action. Just rule academic or not academic.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 03:35, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
Unblock request
I have been blocked for raising a report about problematic editing at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard#Intractable_problem_still_unaddressed_and_unabated;_administrator_action_deficient. I cannot be right that a serious problem be dealt with by indefinitely blocking the user that reported it and who has not been involved in it at all. Indeed, the blocking administrator cannot possibly have had time to read my report before deciding (quite against the ample evidence presented to the contrary) that I was the one not contributing constructively, and so this was clearly done reflexively, without judging the merits of the case and basically on prejudice. This has been a recurring theme in the mishandling of this entire issue. Below is the report:
I believe a very serious case of WP:CRUSH, WP:SEALION, and WP:TENDENTIOUS is afoot, and has been in progress for some time concerning Syrian Kurdistan (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs). It has been claimed that the bad temper of the content dispute has made it impossible to determine that this is happening. I do not agree that this is the case. Briefly, the issue concerns a propaganda line, dreamt up in the 1960s by the national socialist Ba'ath Party rulers of the Second Syrian Republic, which stated that the Kurdish-majority and oil-rich provinces in the extreme north were not historically Kurdish and that the Kurdish inhabitants were without exception illegal immigrants from Turkish Kurdistan. Though many were refugees or their descendants from the wars of the end of the Ottoman Empire, the Arab nationalist Ba'athists decided to ignore longstanding Kurdish settlement in Syria and what is now al-Hasakah Governorate, which were Kurdish majority at the beginning of the French Mandate of Syria and Lebanon. This unequivocal fact is stated numerous times by all reliable sources.
Furthermore, it is directly reported by unimpeachable sources that this xenophobic and racist propaganda was purpose-built and deployed specifically for the purpose of the Ba'athist ethnic cleansing campaign in Syrian Kurdistan known as the Arab Belt. This too is well-evidenced by top-tier academic sources. However, a significant coterie of editors, whose members have been previously heavily active in Syrian civil war articles and repeatedly blocked for ethno-nationalistic edit warring in middle east topics generally, has emerged on the talk page of that article who repeat this nonsense as fact and are tenaciously distorting primary sources to (not-really-)agree with this nationalist claim. Evidence for all of this is abundant, yet no serious action has been taken, and the problem remains unacknowledged and unmitigated. The narrative continues to be presented as fact using wilfully misinterpreted primary sources and argumentum ex silentio in secondary sources while ignoring or dismissing as kurdish pov
every and all reliable source. This has now been going on for many weeks and urgent action is desperately needed, just as it was when this issue first came to ANI more a month ago! So far little more than washing of hands and complaints about incivility have ensued; it is obvious actual steps need to be taken in a clear direction: away from the nationalist POV-pushing, which needs to be put permanently to an end. GPinkerton (talk) 22:11, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
Irrefutable evidence the narrative pushed on the talk page, of Kurds as foreigners in Syrian territory, is nothing but Arab Nationalist racism |
---|
and
|
- Evidence
- Supreme Deliciousness (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- "there are NO historical evidence that a "Syrian Kurdistan" exists, or a "Kurdistan" in Syria. Nothing! ZERO! 0%. Its is all cherry-picked modern authors, zero historical documentation"
- "By phrasing it as it is in the article GPinkerton is giving unsupported legitimacy to a "Syrian part of Kurdistan" by mentioning these real geographical states together with a made up "Syrian part of Kurdistan"."
- "In 1939 the french census of the Jazira region showed the bulk of the population being Arabs/Assyrians/Armenians and a minority being Kurds. We have several sources describing how kurds came in waves after waves from Turkey to Syria. We have several sources saying "Syrian Kurdistan" is not real. How can Misplaced Pages then possibly claim that in the 1920s a "Syrian kurdistan" existed in Syria that was divided? This claim is only a belief held by some people. This is a kurdish narrative that some people go along with. And other do not. It is not a historical fact."
- "Non-kurds are the majority"
- Attar-Aram syria (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- عمرو بن كلثوم (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- "The conventional wisdom talks about three parts of Kurdistan; in Turkey, Iran and Iraq."..."While Kurds do live in Syria (various parts), no Syrian territory is considered part of Kurdistan, which is also echoes in the Treaty of Sevres map. We can refer to the presence of Kurdish-inhabited areas in northeaster Syria, but it is a mistake to refer to that as part of Kurdistan"
- "Give me one source published before 2011 mentioning the term Syrian Kurdistan. Yes, there are Kurdish inhabited areas in Syria, but with other groups, nothing purely Kurdish."
- , (Inserts and re-inserts Ba'athist propaganda line that Kurds did not live in the Jazira region before the French Mandate, created to justify the Arab Belt ethnic cleansing policy in Syrian Kurdistan on the page "Arab Belt". Gross, POV misrepresentation of sources. Edit summary:
Added some background info and number
) - (removes a link to "Syrian Kurdistan" from the article on "Iraqi Kurdistan", edit summary:
"Who says northern Syria is Western kurdistan?"
) - (removes a link to "Syrian Kurdistan" from the article on "Kurdistan", edit summary:
"Updated regional coverage per established sources, not POV outlets"
) - "I provided the all-important Treaty of Sevres map above, and a number of academic books that talk about Kurdistan, but no "Syrian kurdistan". ... On a quick factcheck, it is interesting that none of the links provided above by Paradise (sic, recte: "GPinkerton") has "Syrian Kurdistan" in the name. (!) We are not arguing about the presence of a Kurdistan or Kurds in Syria. One last thing, I just visited one of the links provided above by Paradise and could not even find Syria in there. There is Iran, Iraq and Turkey."
- "a number of academic books that talk about Kurdistan, but no "Syrian kurdistan". ... argue that this term was produced by Kurdish nationalists during the Syrian Civil War. We are not arguing about the presence of a Kurdistan or Kurds in Syria."
- "We have a ton of evidence presented throughout the article and the Talk page that this is a term used/invented by Kurds"
- "You fail to make distinction between presence of Kurds in Syria (just like in any other country) and Syrian Kurdistan. Respected maps and books have not shown the existence of a Syrian Kurdistan, although they still talk about Kurdish communities. PKK/PYD portal have started this rhetoric of a "Syrian kurdistan" during the Syrian civil war and the control of large swaths in northern Syria by PYD militias."
Besides Syrian Kurdistan (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) and Arab Belt (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs), there may be large numbers of article where this POV push is going on, in Syrian Civil War- and Kurdistan-related issues, including over place names in disputed territories in Syria and other parts of the Middle East (Golan Heights, Jerusalem, etc. See contributions and block logs of involved users, including on Wikimedia Commons). See more discussions and diffs at:
- Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_86#PhD_candidate_as_a_reliable_source_for_a_denial_of_Syrian_Kurdistan_against_the_views_of_multiple_professors_stating_otherwise?
- Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1052#User:عمرو_بن_كلثوم_and_Syrian_Kurdistan
- Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1052#Unequivocal_TENDENTIOUS_editing_by_عمرو_بن_كلثوم_on_Syrian_Kurdistan
- Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1052#Syrian_Kurdistan,_at_war_again
- Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1052#Supreme_Deliciousness_and_WP:TENDENTIOUS_editing_on_Syrian_Kurdistan
I hope this is enough for someone to take this entrenched problem seriously. I can produce incontrovertible evidence that all of these claims these editors have been arguing are false, and I believe I have done so in the section above; further details are available on request. GPinkerton (talk) 16:32, 4 December 2020 (UTC)}}
This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).GPinkerton (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))
Request reason:
(see above)
Decline reason:
Declined per WP:NOTTHEM, WP:STICK, WP:IDNHT. I have moved the above overlong unblock request out of the unblock template because it nearly broke the template. Sandstein 20:38, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
Sandstein Is it proper for you to respond to this request, since you are already part of the dispute? I have a feeling this should be examined by an WP:UNINVOLVED administrator, rather than one who has already made their position on whether I should bother reporting abuse plain. GPinkerton (talk) 20:43, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- (ec oooooh, too late) I'm afraid the community is feeling a bit exhausted by you. The admin actually did you a favor by unilaterally blocking you; if the block comes from the community -- which it still could -- you couldn't be unblocked without another community discussion. Guerillero's block can be addressed by an individual admin.
- What you might try is opening an unblock request with a reason of, "I can see my editing is considered disruptive. I would like to take a step back from editing in contentious areas, so I'd like to request being able to resume editing under a tban from articles under discretionary sanctions."
- I believe you're editing in good faith, but you just seem to be unable to hear what everyone is telling you about Syrian Kurdistan, and a look at your user talk shows multiple other warnings, long discussions in which other editors try to give advice, but you seem to continue to get in trouble when editing in contentious areas. I see you have an interest in church architecture. That might be a good place to focus. —valereee (talk) 16:39, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- I can tell you that no admin is going to unblock you with that as an unblock reason, and the longer you draw this out, the more likely it is someone's going to close the ANI with a community consensus block. —valereee (talk) 16:41, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- Valereee, I have only made constructive edits to that page. No-one has suggested otherwise. No-one has said I am editing disruptively, only that my talk page comments have been uncivil, which I have repeatedly accepted. Repeating this has obscured the real issue. I don't accept that there is any need for me to be topic-banned; quite the opposite. That should be the minimum sanction on the editors I have repeatedly reported and which administrators have repeatedly refused to acknowledge or deal with. This is purely shooting the messenger; it is apparently easier to block me that actually to look at the issue in which I am very clearly in the right and in which numerous behavioural issues have been identified which extend far beyond any page I have ever edited and has gone on for years before I ever edited Misplaced Pages. I have heard what others have told me, but none of that contradicts the facts here, and numerous uninvolved editors and admins have concurred with me that a mass-POV push is underway and needs to be dealt with, but no action has been taken and attempts I have made to secure this outcome ahs resulted in my being blocked without even reading the report I made. This simply isn't right. GPinkerton (talk) 16:50, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- I REALLY suggest you read Misplaced Pages:Guide to appealing blocks - especially the sections WP:GAB#Stick to the point and WP:GAB#Talk about yourself, not others. And you might reread the various warnings you were given earlier on this page - you're not listening to the very well meant advice, and at this point, you're unlikely to last long unless you start listening to the advice. -- Ealdgyth (talk) 16:46, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- Ealdgyth Thanks for your comments, and I have listened to the advice. As far as I can see, none of it advises acceptance of mass POV pushing that I have nothing to do with and cessation of reports of such behaviour, and I have never been advised that making WP:AN reports would result in my being blocked! I cannot believe it is wrong for me to make WP:AN reports about breaches of policy, which is the states reason for this. What can I talk about that I have done wrong in this case? GPinkerton (talk) 16:56, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
This may help. Misplaced Pages:Unblock perspectives. At this point, whether you are right or wrong is irrelevant. Brutal perhaps, but that seems to be the case with WP. It is not what you are saying, it is how you are saying it. Please read Unblock perspectives. Read it a couple of times, and don't immediately comment. It may seem like a cynical piece, but it is the reality of how WP works. And what is going through the Admin's minds? Read Misplaced Pages:Give 'em enough rope. That will tell you. I am giving you this in total good faith, because technically you could be an excellent editor. Please just read the stuff and try to internalise it. Regards Simon Adler (talk) 19:48, 4 December 2020 (UTC).- Simon Adler, sadly, it seems to me it is neither what I am saying nor how I am saying it, but that I am saying anything at all. I complain about administrator inaction; I am blocked by an administrator for doing so. I have asked for further explanation. I am wrong to think my complaint has merit? I would really rather the issue be dealt with and NPOV restored in the affected pages, which may run into the hundreds and certainly number in the dozens; unblocking is not my primary objective at the moment. GPinkerton (talk) 20:11, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- GPinkerton I have struck my above comments purely because I believe your points have validity, especially in the Syrian-Kurdistan articles. I would ask you again however to take seriously the points that essays on how to frame an acceptable appeal make. Please frame your appeals purely on the points those essays recommend. Realistically, it may well be that you will have to accept a topic ban on those areas for at least a year. Acceptance will allow you to continue to edit. You may have to modify your tone generally and be more measured in your edit summaries and language, whatever field you edit in. However, many new eyes have been drawn to the (I believe concerning) points you have made. Other, uninvolved editors may now cast a fresh eye on these articles. It should be encouraging to you that Drmies chose a colleagual tone in his last message. Please do not blame admins, for they are expected to be instant experts on a myriad of complex topics. Let the ordinary editing community take a look. These things can take time but if a consensus develops that your arguments have validity, then all readjusts itself. There is WP Karma. Goodnight, or rather Goodmorning. Simon Adler (talk) 04:18, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
- Simon Adler, sadly, it seems to me it is neither what I am saying nor how I am saying it, but that I am saying anything at all. I complain about administrator inaction; I am blocked by an administrator for doing so. I have asked for further explanation. I am wrong to think my complaint has merit? I would really rather the issue be dealt with and NPOV restored in the affected pages, which may run into the hundreds and certainly number in the dozens; unblocking is not my primary objective at the moment. GPinkerton (talk) 20:11, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- Ealdgyth Thanks for your comments, and I have listened to the advice. As far as I can see, none of it advises acceptance of mass POV pushing that I have nothing to do with and cessation of reports of such behaviour, and I have never been advised that making WP:AN reports would result in my being blocked! I cannot believe it is wrong for me to make WP:AN reports about breaches of policy, which is the states reason for this. What can I talk about that I have done wrong in this case? GPinkerton (talk) 16:56, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- I can tell you that no admin is going to unblock you with that as an unblock reason, and the longer you draw this out, the more likely it is someone's going to close the ANI with a community consensus block. —valereee (talk) 16:41, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- GPinkerton, I am not involved because in closing your WP:AN request I have interacted with you in an administrative capacity only. Feel free, though, to make another unblock request, which will be reviewed by another admin. Sandstein 20:48, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- Sandstein, can you clarify whether you closed it because you believe the report has no merit or for some other reason? GPinkerton (talk) 20:50, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- GPinkerton, it is your unblock request that had no merit. You must address your own conduct, not that of others. Sandstein 21:31, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- Sandstein, my unblock request came after I was blocked; you closed the AN thread before that; why? GPinkerton (talk) 21:32, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- GPinkerton, it is your unblock request that had no merit. You must address your own conduct, not that of others. Sandstein 21:31, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- Sandstein, can you clarify whether you closed it because you believe the report has no merit or for some other reason? GPinkerton (talk) 20:50, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
GPinkerton (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))
Request reason:
Having been blocked for making a report to WP:AN about inadequate administrator action in regard to users' behaviour on Syrian Kurdistan and numerous related articles, (Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard#Intractable_problem_still_unaddressed_and_unabated;_administrator_action_deficient), I propose that I be unblocked on condition that I do not make any further such reports. GPinkerton (talk) 21:19, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
Decline reason:
You're still talking about others' actions as much as yourself, and still pulling in the issues that led to the block - the mass walls of text above and the multiple, over and over, noticeboard ranting are symptoms, not the disease. You have very clearly established that you are here to right great wrongs and not to collaboratly build an encyclopedia. You should have dropped the stick some time ago - if you believe there's a massive problem, but nobody else acts on it when you repeatedly bring it up, the answer is to accept that consensus is against you, not to continually rant about it and make demands - which you still are here since your block. My advice is that you take a deep breath, take a wikibreak for a week or so, and then come back with a clear head, assess your behavior and how that resulted in your being blocked, and then calmly explain how those reflections will allow you to avoid a repeat performance. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:49, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
Request
This user's unblock request is on hold because the reviewer is waiting for a comment by the blocking administrator.GPinkerton (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))
Blocking administrator: Guerillero (talk)
Reviewing administrator: El_C 23:56, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
Request reason:
I think I am ready to return to editing. I recognize that I have handled disputes poorly and I will endeavour to avoid conflict like that in future. I am willing to undertake to follow whatever restrictions or recommendations are proposed. I have always been here to build the encyclopaedia and I see that my actions recently have obscured that and got in the community's way. GPinkerton (talk) 01:08, 7 December 2020 (UTC) Administrator use only:After the blocking administrator has left a comment, do one of the following:
If you decline the unblock request, replace this template with the following, substituting {{subst:Decline reason here}}
with any specific rationale. If you do not edit the text after "decline=", a default reason why the request was declined will be inserted.
{{unblock reviewed|1=I think I am ready to return to editing. I recognize that I have handled disputes poorly and I will endeavour to avoid conflict like that in future. I am willing to undertake to follow whatever restrictions or recommendations are proposed. I have always been here to build the encyclopaedia and I see that my actions recently have obscured that and got in the community's way. GPinkerton (talk) 01:08, 7 December 2020 (UTC)|decline={{subst:Decline reason here}} ~~~~}}
If you accept the unblock request, replace this template with the following, substituting Accept reason here
with your rationale:
{{unblock reviewed|1=I think I am ready to return to editing. I recognize that I have handled disputes poorly and I will endeavour to avoid conflict like that in future. I am willing to undertake to follow whatever restrictions or recommendations are proposed. I have always been here to build the encyclopaedia and I see that my actions recently have obscured that and got in the community's way. GPinkerton (talk) 01:08, 7 December 2020 (UTC)|accept=Accept reason here ~~~~}}
I would like to discuss this unblock request. In it, you wrote "There is no risk of further disruption on my part" and " I'm ready to begin editing anew." and yet here we are. Given your previous promise, why should a reviewing administrator believe you this time? --Guy Macon (talk) 01:51, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- Because of the thousands of helpful edits I've made since and all the productive discussions I've been part of in between, and because I have always been editing in good faith. I got caught up in things and got carried away but I've never been hostile to the project's aims. You have expressed a desire not to be pinged so I haven't and because you have said you didn't want to interact I'm hesitant to respond at all. GPinkerton (talk) 02:04, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- I apologize for forgetting that I previously expressed a desire not to interact with you. I have
strickenmy question and am unwatching this page.
- I apologize for forgetting that I previously expressed a desire not to interact with you. I have
- Not that I want to get involved but about that last point: this is sending mixed signals: 1 2 3. Levivich /hound 02:19, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- Not really. I was getting a lot of pings, and when I participate in a discussion I watchlist that discussion, so there is no need to constantly ping me. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:40, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- Not that I want to get involved but about that last point: this is sending mixed signals: 1 2 3. Levivich /hound 02:19, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
Rope extended
You know what? This (latest) unblock request actually makes sense to me. It's brief but it's good. Myself, I've only a passing familiarity with GPinkerton (in so far as me noticing active editors on my ~100,000 page watchlist), but my impression of him is of a content editor of the first order. I have never gotten a sense that he was on the project to right great wrongs, certainly not to the point of being NOTHERE. So, I'm willing to accept that the disruption and bludgeoning that led him to be sanctioned were episodic rather than systemic in nature. It may well be true that the problems GPinkerton claims to have identified in the topic area are real and acute, but that for whatever reason (say, shortage of volunteer hours), review mechanisms have failed him. And so, frustration set in, leading to the misconduct which brought on the block/s. Anyway, if GPinkerton's representation of the issues facing the topic area are accurate, eventually, someone else ie likely to bring em up. But, hey, it may take years to sort out, if at all. I know, lot of hypotheticals — sorry for digressing. My proposal: I am willing to lift the block, so long as the blocking admin is amenable (ping: Guerillero), with a topic ban from the topic area being imposed for a minimum of one year. That said, I would be remiss in neglecting to mention that a couple of matters give me pause. First, one problem with this (3rd) unblock request is that it was submitted a mere 2 days after the last one, which feels a bit rushed — 2 weeks would have been better. But, meh enough. What is more concerning is the block log, which is entirely filled with a recent succession of blocks and unblocks. I mean, this is as last chance saloon as it gets. But what can I say? I'm a hopeless optimist. El_C 23:56, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- El C, FWIW, the blocks from me should be counted as halved from 4 to 2. It was half my rethinkings. —valereee (talk) 00:05, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, Val. Yes, I did notice that you sitewide blocked then unblocked, the first time. And that you sitewide blocked, again, but then converted to a partial block, the second time (i.e. 4 entries in the log amounting to 2 distinct sets of actions). El_C 00:14, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- El C, first of all thank you for your confidence and the good words, and I think your summation of the events is exactly right and all the blocks were for talk-page issues. Secondly, and having said I would accept whatever restriction, a year's topic ban seems a harsh measure from my perspective, since I did not make any disruptive edits to any article-page and, as you say, I'm not one to make tendentious edits. Also, how would a topic ban be defined; which exactly is the topic area? GPinkerton (talk) 00:25, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- @El C: I would be okay with a topic ban from Islam and post-632 CE middle east. That should allow GPinkerton to continue to work on archaeology articles away from the area of contention. --Guerillero 01:10, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- I would also be amendable to moving the topic ban to post-1453 CE --Guerillero 01:15, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- Guerillero I don't understand? The disruption was occasioned only by Syrian Kurdistan, an article I expanded significantly and a subject has to do with post-WWI geopolitics (French Mandate of Syria 1919), not Islam. In addition, one of my main editing interests is the East Roman empire, so post-632 CE middle east would block me from an entire area which badly needs expansion. GPinkerton (talk) 01:19, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- GPinkerton, you're welcome. Actually, I don't think one year is too harsh — intuitively, it feels just right. As for how the topic ban is to be defined in terms of scope, I'm not really sure. Initially, I thought it would be limited to anything to do with the Kurds (especially historical demography), but whatever you and Guerillero feel is best works for me. I confess to not being that familiar with the nature of your recent dispute/s, so I am happy to go with the flow on that front. El_C 01:37, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- @El C and GPinkerton: My follow up was 1453, which would give you access to the whole Byzantine Empire --Guerillero 01:43, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- Guerillero,El C, as I say, it's only Syrian Kurdistan that has been at issue. Originally I was blocked from that page for a week before it was upgraded to total and indefinite. Post-1919 would make more sense. GPinkerton (talk) 01:48, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- Your first block was for edit-warring on Vashti - so it's not just Syrian Kurdistan that makes you jump to edit warring. While you haven't had issues since then with that article ... neither have you edited it since you were unblocked, so it's not clear if the issues were resolved and you learned a lesson or if you just dropped the article completely. (And please don't ping me - I'm watching the page). -- Ealdgyth (talk) 01:53, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- Both Debresser and me were blocked. I have not since removed his text, though I still think "unlikely" misrepresents the "could not" of the source. That was a long time ago, and I had not done much editing before that. (Although my account is older, I have had more time to contribute since this spring ...) GPinkerton (talk) 01:59, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- Cullen328 agrees on post-1453 middle east, FWIW. --Guerillero 02:09, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- That assessment appears to be based on my editing of Hagia Sophia being "highly problematic", which I don't think is at all justified. I have written nearly 50% of that article, replacing some very dubious material and incompetent bungling from year ago, and writing from scratch most of the recent politics sections, involving middle eastern geopolitics, and the only objections have been to particular 15th-century legends (and not others). GPinkerton (talk) 02:40, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- Cullen328 agrees on post-1453 middle east, FWIW. --Guerillero 02:09, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- Both Debresser and me were blocked. I have not since removed his text, though I still think "unlikely" misrepresents the "could not" of the source. That was a long time ago, and I had not done much editing before that. (Although my account is older, I have had more time to contribute since this spring ...) GPinkerton (talk) 01:59, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- Your first block was for edit-warring on Vashti - so it's not just Syrian Kurdistan that makes you jump to edit warring. While you haven't had issues since then with that article ... neither have you edited it since you were unblocked, so it's not clear if the issues were resolved and you learned a lesson or if you just dropped the article completely. (And please don't ping me - I'm watching the page). -- Ealdgyth (talk) 01:53, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- Guerillero,El C, as I say, it's only Syrian Kurdistan that has been at issue. Originally I was blocked from that page for a week before it was upgraded to total and indefinite. Post-1919 would make more sense. GPinkerton (talk) 01:48, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- (ec) I think that's a good topic ban limitation - keep it in the Middle East countries though - Hellespont and east of that. I'd lean post-1453, but post-632 would also work. Or just a ban from anything broadly related to Kurds would also work. GP needs to start listening to other folks when they give him advice - being right in a content discussion isn't everything on Misplaced Pages - collaborative editing IS, however. They did get drawn into a buzzsaw, but if they want to be effective, they need to edit in areas that are not as emotionally charged for them so they can learn the ropes of Misplaced Pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ealdgyth (talk • contribs)
- @El C and GPinkerton: My follow up was 1453, which would give you access to the whole Byzantine Empire --Guerillero 01:43, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- GPinkerton, you're welcome. Actually, I don't think one year is too harsh — intuitively, it feels just right. As for how the topic ban is to be defined in terms of scope, I'm not really sure. Initially, I thought it would be limited to anything to do with the Kurds (especially historical demography), but whatever you and Guerillero feel is best works for me. I confess to not being that familiar with the nature of your recent dispute/s, so I am happy to go with the flow on that front. El_C 01:37, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- Guerillero I don't understand? The disruption was occasioned only by Syrian Kurdistan, an article I expanded significantly and a subject has to do with post-WWI geopolitics (French Mandate of Syria 1919), not Islam. In addition, one of my main editing interests is the East Roman empire, so post-632 CE middle east would block me from an entire area which badly needs expansion. GPinkerton (talk) 01:19, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
Here is my offer. El C might offer you a better one, but this is mine. A 1 year topic ban from post-1453 middle east. After 6 months of issue free editing under the topic ban, approach me with a single article that you would like to improve (that is reasonable) and a plan to improve it and I will give you a carve out for that article. If you can show that you can edit without problems for six months and a carve out, I would be happy to lift the topic ban early. --Guerillero 02:20, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
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