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Revision as of 02:05, 30 January 2021 editClueBot III (talk | contribs)Bots1,386,228 editsm Archiving 3 discussions to Talk:The Holocaust in Poland/Archives/2021/January. (BOT)← Previous edit Revision as of 06:45, 30 January 2021 edit undoBuidhe (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, File movers, Mass message senders, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Template editors136,150 edits Problems with VM's reverts: new sectionNext edit →
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: Does this have to do with the issue raised by the OP? If not, please open a new thread. Thanks. ] (]) 17:00, 29 January 2021 (UTC) : Does this have to do with the issue raised by the OP? If not, please open a new thread. Thanks. ] (]) 17:00, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
::We're good here, thanks for keeping an eye out though.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 18:01, 29 January 2021 (UTC) ::We're good here, thanks for keeping an eye out though.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 18:01, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
{{talk ref}}

== Problems with VM's reverts ==

I will list all the problems:
*VM removed information on prewar antisemitism, which reliable sources relate to the wartime events:
{{collapse top}}
Antisemitism had been increasing in Poland before the outbreak of war. Anti-Jewish violence occurred in more than 150 localities between 1935 and 1937.<ref>{{cite book |last1=Cichopek |first1=Anna |title=Beyond Violence: Jewish Survivors in Poland and Slovakia, 1944–48|title-link=Beyond Violence: Jewish Survivors in Poland and Slovakia, 1944–48 |date=2014 |location=Cambridge |publisher=Cambridge University Press|isbn=978-1-107-03666-6 |language=en|quote=Antisemitism grew explosively. In just two years, between 1935 and 1937, anti-Jewish violence occurred in over 150 towns and villages, including Przytyk, Minsk Mazowiecki, and Brzecz nad Bugiem.|page=11}}</ref><ref name=Cymet>{{cite journal |last1=Cymet |first1=David |title=Polish state antisemitism as a major factor leading to the Holocaust |journal=Journal of Genocide Research |date=1999 |volume=1 |issue=2 |pages=169–212 |doi=10.1080/14623529908413950 |issn=1462-3528}}</ref> Prior to the war, right-wing Polish politicians encouraged Jews to emigrate in order to reduce the number of Jews in Poland.<ref name=Cymet/><ref>{{cite journal |last1=Groth |first1=Alexander J. |title=The Road to September 1939: Polish Jews, Zionists, and the Yishuv on the Eve of World War II |journal=Israel Journal of Foreign Affairs |date=2019 |pages=1–4 |doi=10.1080/23739770.2019.1610225}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal |last1=Cienciala |first1=Anna M. |title=The Polish Government and Polish Jews, 1936–1945 |journal=The International History Review |date=1995 |volume=17 |issue=1 |pages=99–105 |doi=10.1080/07075332.1995.9640703 |quote=Jabotinsky and his NZ O received support from the Polish government because both agreed on the need for a mass Jewish emigration from Poland to Palestine; the first because he believed, like Herzl, that Jews had no future in Europe; the second because it wanted to reduce the number of Polish Jews, who made up about 8% of an estimated 3 5 million Polish citizens.}}</ref>
{{collapse bottom}}
*"An estimated 157,000 to 375,000 Polish Jews either fled into the Soviet Union or were deported eastward by the Soviet authorities.{{sfn|Edele|Warlick|2017|pp=103, 123}}" -> VM replaced with "Within months, Polish Jews in the Soviet zone who refused to swear allegiance were deported deep into the Soviet interior along with ethnic Poles. The number of deported Polish Jews is estimated at 200,000–230,000 men, women, and children." According to reliable sources, not all Jews were deported, some went voluntarily. Deportation of non-Jews is irrelevant to this article
*"Both occupying powers were hostile to the existence of a sovereign Polish state and endorsed policies of genocide.<ref name="Olsak-Glass">{{cite journal |author=Judith Olsak-Glass |url=http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/199/glass.html |title=Review of Piotrowski's ''Poland's Holocaust'' |publisher=] |date=January 1999 |id=Volume XIX, Number 1 |quote=Both regimes endorsed a systematic program of genocide. |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20080305162014/http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/199/glass.html |archive-date=March 5, 2008}}</ref>" Restored by VM. The problem here is that Soviet and Nazi hostility to Poland is already obvious (since it was invaded and occupied by them), allegations that Soviet Union pursued a policy of "genocide" against Poland are irrelevant and need a much stronger source than what is provided
* ''(see map)'' -> violates ]
*"Polish nationals account for the majority of rescuers with the title of ], as honored by ]."... I moved most of this paragraph into the rescue section, where it belongs. VM replaced it at the top of "Poles and the Jews" section.
*Some Jews were denounced or killed by erstwhile rescuers.<ref name=Brethour /><ref name=Michlic2018/> Motivations of rescuers differed; some were motivated by compassion and altruism while others did so for money or sex.<ref>{{cite thesis|degree=PhD |last1=Brethour |first1=Miranda |title=At the Confluence of Rescuer and Perpetrator: Jewish-Polish Relations in Hiding and Portraits of Polish Aid-Providers During the Holocaust in Poland as Detailed in the Testimonies of Jews, 1942-1945 |date=2019 |url=https://ruor.uottawa.ca/handle/10393/39371 |publisher=Université d'Ottawa / University of Ottawa |language=en|p=abstract}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal |last1=Aleksiun |first1=Natalia |title=Social Networks of Support: Trajectories of Escape, Rescue and Survival |journal=A Companion to the Holocaust |date=17 April 2020 |pages=279–293 |doi=10.1002/9781118970492.ch15 |quote=But many accounts of assistance involve grey areas of sexual exploitation or barter, humiliation and physical abuse, or financial profit. In recent years, scholars have raised questions about the role of non‐ Jews in enabling survival when they were not aware of assisting Jews, or when they treated Jews with cruelty and abused their power. In discussing the role of individuals, scholars have grappled with these negative attitudes and behavior toward Jews. In their work Jan Grabowski and Joanna Tokarska‐Bakir, for example, interrogated inadequate terms applied to rescue and the daily realities of assistance, pointing at the ambiguities and problems of the category of the Righteous with regard to many accounts from Eastern Europe.}}</ref><ref name=Michlic2018>{{cite journal |last1=Michlic |first1=Joanna B. |title=Gender Perspectives on the Rescue of Jews in Poland: Preliminary Observations |journal=Polin Studies in Polish Jewry |date=3 August 2018 |volume=30 |pages=407–426 |url=https://muse.jhu.edu/article/700129/summary |language=en |issn=2516-8681 |quote=recent research in Poland and abroad has contributed to the dismantling of the hegemonic narratives of Polish solidarity with the Jews and demonstrated the incongruence of these themes with historical reality, mainly by uncovering previously suppressed dark aspects of the relationships. As a result, the emphasis has shifted to the study of rescuers for profit and those who abused their Jewish charges or denounced them later.}}</ref> -> Removed by VM without explanation
*VM added content stating "and 150,000 due to Soviet repressions.<ref name="encyclopedia.ushmm.org"/><ref>{{Cite web|url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/tyne/content/articles/2005/01/20/holocaust_memorial_other_victims_feature.shtml|title=BBC - Tyne - Roots - Non-Jewish Holocaust Victims : The 5,000,000 others|website=www.bbc.co.uk}}</ref><ref name="Materski&Szarota">{{harvp|Materski|Szarota|2009|loc=page 9.}}</ref> -> Totally irrelevant
*About a fifth of Poland's prewar population perished.<ref name="Piotrowski305">{{harvp|Piotrowski|1998|pp=305–|loc=}}</ref> Their deaths were the ],<ref>{{harvp|Materski|Szarota|2009|loc=page 16.}}</ref> mass murder, incarceration in concentration camps, forced labor, malnutrition, disease, kidnappings, and expulsions.<ref>{{harvp|Materski|Szarota|2009|loc=page 28. Some 800,000 Poles perished in concentration camps and mass murders.}}</ref> -> Deliberately aggregating Jewish and non-Jewish deaths when they have already been given separately. The general German repressions (as opposed to repressions specifically for helping Jews) is not relevant, most of them were in concentration camps for other reasons, etc.
*There were, however, many Poles who risked death to hide entire Jewish families or otherwise help Jews on compassionate grounds.{{r|Żarski}} Polish rescuers of Jews were sometimes exposed by those very Jews if the Jews were found by the Germans, resulting in the murder of entire helper networks in the General Government.<ref name="WZaj:152–201"/> The number of Jews hiding with gentile Poles, quoted by Żarski-Zajdler, was about 450,000.<ref name="Żarski">{{cite book |last=Żarski-Zajdler |first=Władysław |year=1968 |title=Martyrologia ludności żydowskiej i pomoc społeczeństwa polskiego |trans-title=Martyrdom of the Jewish people and their rescue by the Polish society |location=Warsaw |publisher=ZBoWiD |page=16 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=_2S-ZAkAy7EC&q=Zajdler+Martyrologia |id= Lucas (2013), p.14. Note 21 to "Introduction." |isbn=978-0813143323}}</ref> -> Unreliable sources, opinion stated as fact (It's not for us to decide if there were "many" or indeed "few" Polish rescuers).
*Possibly a million gentile Poles aided their Jewish neighbors.{{r|HG}} Historian ]{{r|Lukas1989}} gives an estimate as high as three million Polish helpers; an estimate similar to those cited by other authors.<ref name="Goldberg2012">{{cite book |title=Needle in the Bone: How a Holocaust Survivor and a Polish Resistance Fighter Beat the Odds and Found Each Other |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=p2yWClrSYL0C&pg=PA6 |author=Caryn Mirriam-Goldberg |year=2012 |quote=Approximately 3 million Poles rescued, hid, or otherwise helped Jews during the war, and fewer than a thousand denounced Jews to the Nazis. |isbn=978-1612345680 |page=6}}</ref><ref name="Marshall2000">{{cite book |title=Moral geographies: ethics in a world of difference |page=112 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=9SwSAQAAIAAJ&q=Poles+involved |author=David Marshall Smith |year=2000 |quote=It has been estimated that a million or more Poles were involved in helping Jews. |isbn=9780748612789}}</ref><ref name="Lukas2013">{{harvp|Lukas|1989|page=13}} – Recent research suggests that a million Poles were involved, but some estimates go as high as three million. {{webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180705225949/https://books.google.com/books?id=_2S-ZAkAy7EC&pg=PA13 |date=July 5, 2018 }} {{ISBN|0813143322}}.</ref> -> Most of the sources cited are unreliable for the topic (i.e. Smith and Furth appear to have no expertise studying the Holocaust in Poland) and there's no indication given that this is a minority, probably even FRINGE view. As stated indeed in the methodology section of Furth's paper, all these estimates rely on there being many, many more Polish rescuers than known to the historical record. {{ill|Andrzej Żbikowski|pl}} states, "Summing up this aspect of Polish historical writing—I might add that it continues, although it is none too popular—we may state that up to the year 2000 so-called Polish witnesses to the Holocaust were for most part perceived to be the Righteous, people fighting German terror tactics and willing to help those in danger. There were supposedly many, many more than noted in underground documents and postwar accounts."
*The paragraph implies that German repressions were the only reason for not helping Jews. Reliable sources beg to differ. (] &#183; ]) ''']''' 06:45, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
{{talk ref}} {{talk ref}}

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More informative version

I hope I haven't offended anyone or overstepped some bounds, but I find the version of the collaboration section that begins with the assessment by Connelly more informative. - - GI — Preceding unsigned comment added by GhettoInvestigator (talkcontribs) 10:56, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 April 2020

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I would like to submit the text below under “Individual collaboration”, second paragraph, to follow the last sentence ending with “…"structural collaboration" (see more below).” Connelly’s criticism does not consider contextual factors, which are outlined below.

(Quote) The criticism of indifference is misplaced as it fails to consider a number of factual realities. A key disincentive was the Germans’ standing order that any form of assistance to Jews was routinely punishable by death. Because of severe German repression, Poles were in daily struggle for survival. As the Germans rounded up Jews for confinement in ghettos, they executed Poles to terrorize the populace, rounded up villagers for concentration camps, arrested and tortured locals to extract information on the resistance as well as locations of fugitive Jews and Polish rescuers, confiscated crops and livestock, and enforced near-starvation rations. Another factor was that many Poles, particularly in the countryside, did not have the capability or resources to regularly shelter and feed fugitive Jews. Also not considered are the rescue activities of Jews carried out by priests, nuns, and monks in more than one thousand Roman Catholic Church institutions throughout occupied Poland. Several dozen members of the Polish clergy were executed for this reason. The Polish Catholic clergy were the only Christian clergy who were systematically surveilled, persecuted, imprisoned, and murdered as a result of Hitler’s mass murder policies. Further overlooked is the Polish underground organization Żegota, which was the only government entity in the German-occupied countries established to rescue Jews. Żegota officials estimated that 40,000 to 50,000 Jews were aided by the organization. Żegota’s Irena Sendler and her team of Polish helpers are credited with safely smuggling 2,500 Jewish children out of the Warsaw Ghetto. Also not considered is the servility of the Polish Jewish leadership. When the Germans attacked Poland in 1939, they immediately began forming Jewish Councils (Judenräte) to administer the ghettos in which Polish Jews were to reside. Historian Ewa Kurek points out that the Judenräte ceased all forms of contact with Polish authorities and negotiated the conditions of collaboration for Jewish governance of the ghettos. The Judenräte instructed the relocation of Jews from small towns to the ghettos in larger urban areas, told ghetto Jews they were being deported to work in German-designated areas in the East, and directed the Jewish Ghetto Police to forcibly round up Jews and load them onto the trains destined for the death camps. Historian Raul Hilberg contends that, for the most part, the Jews were not fooled by the Germans but rather by themselves. Political theorist Hannah Arendt has posed the compelling question of why the Jews did not resist and instead force the Germans do their own heinous work. (Unquote)

BialaPodlaska (talk) 21:10, 12 April 2020 (UTC) BialaPodlaska (talk) 21:10, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

For a start way too long.Slatersteven (talk) 22:58, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
For another, Paul and Kurek are iffy sources and Arendt's a bit outdated. --Ealdgyth (talk) 23:07, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Slatersteven states: “For a start way too long”. Please specify a text length that is not too long. Thanks.

Ealdgyth states: “For another, Paul and Kurek are iffy sources and Arendt's a bit outdated”. Please specify why Paul and Kurek are iffy. Please specify why Arendt’s 2006 source is a bit outdated. Thanks. BialaPodlaska (talk) 16:21, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Less, there is no set amount but this is far too long (also it was for a start) there is also the fact I am not sure this is neutrally worded. Nor )as far as I can tell) does it add anything we do not already say. Nor do I see why this has been resurrected.Slatersteven (talk) 16:26, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Hannah Arendt died in 1975. Her Eichmann in Jerusalem was originally put out in 1963. That's why I said "dated". As for Paul and Kurek - see Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 241, Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 242, and Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 243. --Ealdgyth (talk) 16:34, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

References

  1. Paul, Mark (2018). ‘’ Wartime Rescue of Jews by the Polish Catholic Clergy: The Testimony of Survivors and Rescuers’’, p. 2. Polish Educational Foundation in North America, Toronto.
  2. Lukas, Richard (2012). ‘’ Forgotten Holocaust: The Poles Under German Occupation 1939-1945’’, p. 150. University Press of Kentucky, Lexington. ISBN 978-0-7818-1302-0.
  3. Kurek, Ewa (2012). ‘’ Polish-Jewish Relations 1939-1945: Beyond the limits of solidarity’’, pp. 236-250. iUniverse, Bloomington. ISBN 978-1-4759-3831-9.
  4. Hilberg, Raul (1985). ‘’ The Destruction of the European Jews’’, p. 1039. ISBN 0300095929.
  5. Arendt, Hannah (2006). ‘’ Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil’’, pp. 116-134. Penguin Books, New York. ISBN 978-0-14-303988-4.

I take your point about “less”.

Regarding “neutral wording”, please let me know what you’re unsure about.

Regarding “adding to what is not said”, my second sentence pointed out the absence of contextual factors. As an example, the fourth sentence of the Misplaced Pages entry states that Connelly accuses the “Polish population” of indifference. This is a sweeping generalization that wrongly maligns the “same population” for the simple reason it ignores the contextual factors I described. Adding contextual factors provides the necessary, broader factual picture. In contrast to Connelly’s sweeping accusation, historian Arno J. Mayer points out the following in his 1990 work “Why Did The Heavens Not Darken?: The ‘Final Solution’ In History”: “The local populations became indifferent to the torments of the Jews less because of any residual Judeophobia because they, too, were being terrorized and brutalized, even if to a lesser extent.” (p. 273).

It’s not clear what you mean by “being resurrected”. What’s being resurrected?

As for “a bit dated”, while Arendt’s work has an initial publication date of 1965, Raul Hilberg’s work, which I also cite as a source, has an initial publication date of 1961. Labeling the former as a bit dated but not the latter, which was published four years earlier, doesn’t appear to be logical.

In the case of “iffy”, the issue is straightforward, i.e., whether or not facts have been falsified or manipulated to align with an author’s point of view. Your first paragraph in Archive 242 is absent of empirical evidence that this is the case with Mark Paul. The same applies to your second paragraph. Others who disparaged Paul similarly present no evidence of iffiness. As for Kurek, Tatzref’s comments confirm that iffy is not applicable. You’ve made no comments on Mark Paul in Archive 243. The few comments made by others in this Archive present no evidence that he falsified or manipulated facts. Kurek is not mentioned in this Archive. As for Archive 241, this simply refers one to the previous Archives.

Regarding “iffy”, I would offer the following for your consideration. The last sentence in the second paragraph of the Misplaced Pages entry states: “According to Grabowski, the number of ‘Judenjagd’ victims could reach 200,000 in Poland alone; Szymon Datner gave a lower estimate - 100,000 Jews who "fell prey to the Germans and their local helpers, or were murdered in various unexplained circumstances. ” The first part of this sentence presents Grabowski’s claim that up to 200,000 Jews “were killed or turned in by Poles”. In the second part of this sentence, Grabowski claims that historian Szymon Datner “estimates that 100,000 Jews fell prey to the Germans and their local helpers, or were murdered in various unexplained circumstances.” This is false. Szymon Datner, as recorded in the “Bulletin of the Jewish Historical Institute No. 75 (1970)”, stated the following “I estimated the number of surviving Jews – chiefly thanks to assistance provided by the Polish population – at approximately 100,000. It may be similarly estimated that another 100,000 Jewish victims were captured by the occupying authorities and murdered.” “The Times of Israel” published Grabowski’s falsehood on 8 February 2018. This example empirically confirms that, when it comes to assessing the reliability of a source, Grabowski by far surpasses the iffiness standard.

Section 6 of the larger Misplaced Pages entry is titled “Poles and the Jews” and the sub-entry in question is titled “Collaboration and opportunism”. Collaboration and opportunism of “Poles” is addressed but not that of “the Jews”. The latter is missing and needs to be included.

This sub-entry is largely flawed. Why is it a “semi-protected” component?

BialaPodlaska (talk) 14:24, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

You first line editorialises and puts into Misplaced Pages's voice an opinion, and that is just for starters, you whole text is prolboamtic.Slatersteven (talk) 14:29, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

My first line presents fact, i.e., absence of factual context, rather than opinion. Factual context that explains why “activities that may be described as collaboration” took place among a “relatively small percentage of the Polish population” is missing. Connelly’s assertion that all such individuals were indifferent is incorrect.

Give me a little bit of time and I’ll specify why this sub-entry is problematic.

BialaPodlaska (talk) 14:22, 29 October 2020 (UTC)


As I mentioned above, below are the specifics I believe make this entry problematic. I submit that the entry’s general issue is that it presents single POVs. As a result, I’ve made every effort to provide fair and balanced significant views published by reliable sources so that an NPOV is achieved, which is a core Misplaced Pages requirement. I also believe there are some inaccuracies in the text and in some of the inline citations, which I’ve pointed out.

Please let me know which revisions you agree with and which revisions you disagree with. For those you disagree with, please specify why and, if you believe it violates a Misplaced Pages policy, please identify it.

Thanks much.

Extended content

The FIRST PARAGRAPH is problematic for three main reasons. The first is that the fourth sentence is poorly written. The second is that the fourth sentence presents a single POV. The third is that the fifth (last) sentence does not meet the Misplaced Pages requirement of verifiability.

FIRST PARAGRAPH FIRST REASON: The fourth sentence is poorly written. Because it is the logical extension of the third sentence, which cites “a relatively small percentage of the Polish population”, the fourth sentence should also convey the notion of “a small percentage”. The phrase “the same population” does not do this. The phrase “Polish population” in the third sentence, coupled with the phrase “the same population” in the fourth sentence, could lead one to conclude that this applies to the entire or larger Polish population. For the purpose of clarity, the phrase “same population” should be replaced by the phrase “This small percentage”. The second part of the fourth sentence, i.e., “…however, can be accused of indifference to the Jewish plight”, appears to be a subjective assessment. Who is doing the accusing of “indifference”– Connelly or someone else? If it is Connelly, the word “accuse” needs to be shown in quotes and cited appropriately as required by Misplaced Pages. If it is not Connelly, this second part should be deleted and the fourth sentence should be rewritten as follows: “John Connelly attributes the actions of this small percentage of Poles to an indifference of the Jewish plight and calls such behavior ‘structural collaboration’”.

FIRST PARAGRAPH SECOND REASON: The fourth sentence as written presents the single POV of Connelly, i.e., a small percentage of Polish collaborators engaged in “structural collaboration”, which apparently means that they were indifferent to the Germans’ oppression of Polish Jews. For this part of the paragraph to be fair and proportionate, Misplaced Pages requires a second significant POV by a reliable source so that an overall NPOV is presented. That second POV should be inserted as a new fifth sentence and is as follows: “By contrast, historian Arno J. Mayer states the following: “The local populations became indifferent to the torments of the Jews less because of any residual Judeophobia because they, too, were being terrorized and brutalized, even if to a lesser extent.” This second POV should be added as a new fifth sentence to the paragraph. The supporting inline citation, which also needs to be included, is as follows:

FIRST PARAGRAPH THIRD REASON: The fifth (last) sentence and its inline citation do not meet the Misplaced Pages requirement of verifiability and should be deleted. As written, Grabowski claims that Datner claims that “fewer Poles murdered Jews…etc.”. If Datner made this claim, Grabowski would have to have examined the source in which Datner stated it. However, the inline citation does not list the source in which Datner stated it. Instead, inline citation lists Grabowski’s book “Hunt for the Jews” as the source. Misplaced Pages requires, without exception, all content to be verifiable and further requires sources to directly support the claims made. The source that directly supports Grabowski’s claim is the primary source, i.e., Datner. Citing Grabowski as the primary source is invalid. Consequently, this sentence and its inline citation should be removed.

FIRST PARAGRAPH CONCLUSION: Based on the above explanations, THE FIRST PARAGRAPH SHOULD BE REVISED AS FOLLOWS. “The phenomenon of Polish collaboration was described by John Connelly and Leszek Gondek as marginal, when seen against the backdrop of European and world history. Estimates of the number of individual Polish collaborators vary from as few as 7,000 to as many as several hundred thousand. According to John Connelly “only a relatively small percentage of the Polish population engaged in activities that may be described as collaboration, when seen against the backdrop of European and world history.” Connelly attributes the actions of this small percentage of Poles to an indifference of the Jewish plight and calls such behavior ‘structural collaboration’ By contrast, historian Arno J. Mayer states the following: “The local populations became indifferent to the torments of the Jews less because of any residual Judeophobia because they, too, were being terrorized and brutalized, even if to a lesser extent.” ”

The SECOND PARAGRAPH is problematic for six main reasons. The first is that the first sentence contains an invalid inline citation. The second is that the first and third sentences are poorly written and should be combined. The third is that the first and third sentences present a single POV. The fourth is that factual context for the Judenjagd is necessary to present an overall NPOV that accommodates the single POV of Grabowski’s claim. The fifth is that second sentence is extraneous. The sixth is that the third sentence does not meet the Misplaced Pages requirement of verifiability.

SECOND PARAGRAPH FIRST REASON: In the first sentence, inline citation is incomplete and does not comply with the Misplaced Pages requirement for citing individually authored chapters in books. Inline citation apparently was intended to but does not cite Tomasz Frydel’s Chapter 10 in “Perpetrators and Perpetration of Mass Violence: Action, Motivations and Dynamics”, by Timothy Williams and Susanne Buckley-Zistel, eds. In addition, citing Frydel indicates he agrees with Grabowski’s claim, which is not the case. In contrast to Grabowski, Frydel does not claim that approximately 200,000 Jews escaped from the Germans and tried to hide among the Polish population. On page 187, Frydel merely presents a working assumption of others that 250,000 Jews escaped and notes that, according to Grabowski, 200,000 did not survive. Inline citation was apparently inserted to indicate that another historian agrees with the 200,000 assertion. Because this is not the case, inline citation should be deleted.

SECOND PARAGRAPH SECOND REASON: The first sentence and third sentence are logically connected; however, they are poorly written and the information presented should be restructured and combined into a new first sentence as follows: “Jan Grabowski claims that, in German-occupied Poland, approximately 200,000 Jews escaped from the Germans and tried to hide among the rural Polish population. Of the 200,000 fugitive Jews, Grabowski claims about 80 percent, or 160,000, were turned in or killed by Poles who participated in the so-called Judenjagd (German: “Hunt for Jews”). ”

SECOND PARAGRAPH THIRD REASON: The restructured and combined new first sentence presented in the Second Reason above presents a single POV. To be fair and proportionate, Misplaced Pages requires a second significant POV by a reliable source so that an overall NPOV is presented. To counterbalance the single POV in the new first sentence, the following sentences should directly follow the new first sentence. “By contrast, historian Gunnar Paulsson points out that Holocaust scholars disagree on the percentage of Jews who escaped from the Warsaw Ghetto, the most-studied one, let alone the percentage of Jews who escaped from all of the ghettos combined in German-occupied Poland. According to Paulsson, Raul Hilberg estimates that 5,000-6,000 escaped while Joseph Kermish, Israel Gutman, and others estimate approximately 25,000. ”

SECOND PARAGRAPH FOURTH REASON: To counterbalance the single POV of Grabowski’s claim in the new first sentence presented in the Second Reason above, contextual facts that accurately explain the structure and function of the German-mandated Judenjagd is necessary to enable the presentation of an overall NPOV. The following sentences provide the necessary specifics for the NPOV and should directly follow the two new sentences outlined in the THIRD REASON. “The ‘Judenjagd’, a term introduced by historian Christopher R. Browning, were German-conducted searches in the General Government in which village Poles were conscripted and compelled to participate. Tomasz Frydel explains that the occupying Germans established a village authority structure in which village heads were required to apprehend Polish laborers as well as report and deliver any Jews, Soviet prisoners of war, partisans, or strangers. This structure functioned as a surveillance system against all fugitives pursued by the Germans. The death penalty was enforced for anyone helping a fugitive Jew as well as for anyone failing to report and apprehend any fugitives. Fugitive Jews sheltered by Poles and captured by the Germans typically denounced their benefactors, whom the Germans then executed. Collectively, this created widespread communal fear that caused a desperate competition for survival and compelled village Poles to participate in the manhunts for fugitive Jews. Frydel also notes that, counterintuitively, Jews participated in these manhunts. New Inline Citation 215, p. 193.] He further points out that manhunts initiated by Poles acting independently of the village security system were the exception and occurred in specific circumstances. ”

SECOND PARAGRAPH FIFTH REASON: The second sentence is extraneous and should be deleted together with its inline citations and . First, this sub-section addresses Polish collaboration with the Germans. In the case of Jedwabne, Jan Gross’s thesis in his book “Neighbors” is that village Poles acted alone in killing Jedwabne’s Jews while the Germans only watched and took photographs. Within the context of this subsection, Poles acting alone, as Gross claims, fails to qualify as collaboration. Moreover, there already are Misplaced Pages entries that address Jedwabne in detail. Second, because this sub-section addresses Polish collaboration with the Germans, Ukrainian collaboration with the Germans is extraneous and irrelevant. In inline citation , John-Paul Himka explains that the OUN was the principal collaborator. Additionally, Himka does not mention collaboration by Poles with the Germans. Moreover, Misplaced Pages already has a detailed entry about the 1941 Lviv pogrom.

SECOND PARAGRAPH SIXTH REASON: The third (last) sentence does not meet the Misplaced Pages requirement of verifiability and should be deleted. As currently written, it claims that Szymon Datner stated that 100,000 Jews “fell prey to the Germans and their local helpers, or were murdered in various unexplained circumstances.” However, the incline citation for this quotation attributed to Datner only cites Grabowski’s book “Hunt for Jews”. Rather than only cite Grabowski’s book, inline citation should include the source Grabowski referenced in his book and which he claims is a Datner quotation. Moreover, Grabowski’s claim that Datner made this statement is contradicted by the statement Datner made in his own work “Zbrodnie Hitlerowskie Na Żydach Zbiegłych Z Gett” , Biuletyn Zydowskiego Instytutu Historycznego Lipiec-Wrzesien 1970, Nr. 75, pages 9-29. In this Bulletin, Datner stated the following in Polish: “W jednej z prac liczbe ocalalych Zydow oszacowalem, głównie dzięki pomocy ludności polskiej–na ok. 100 000 osób. Rownie orientacyjnie oceniamy, ze co najmniej drugie tyle ofiar zostalo wychwytanych przez organa okupacyjne i padlo ofiara zbrodni.” (p. 29). The English translation is: “In one of the works , I had assessed the number of surviving Jews, mainly thanks to the help of the Polish population–as around 100,000 persons. We also indicatively assess, that at least that many victims were seized by the organs of the occupation authorities and fell victim to crime.” (p. 29). Note that Datner makes no mention of “local helpers” or “murders in unexplained circumstances” cited in the third sentence. Again, this last sentence is clearly challengeable because of its lack of verifiability and should be deleted.

SECOND PARAGRAPH CONCLUSION: Based on the above explanations, THE SECOND PARAGRAPH SHOULD BE REVISED AS FOLLOWS. “Jan Grabowski claims that, in German-occupied Poland, approximately 200,000 Jews escaped from the Germans and tried to hide among the rural Polish population. Of the 200,000 fugitive Jews, Grabowski claims about 80 percent, or 160,000, were turned in or killed by Poles who participated in the so-called Judenjagd (German: “Hunt for Jews”). By contrast, historian Gunnar Paulsson points out that Holocaust scholars disagree on the percentage of Jews who escaped from the Warsaw Ghetto, the most-studied one, let alone the percentage of Jews who escaped from all of the ghettos combined in German-occupied Poland. According to Paulsson, Raul Hilberg estimates that 5,000-6,000 escaped while Joseph Kermish, Israel Gutman and others estimate approximately 25,000. The ‘Judenjagd’, a term introduced by historian Christopher R. Browning, were German-conducted searches in the General Government in which village Poles were largely conscripted and compelled to participate. Tomasz Frydel explains that the occupying Germans established a village authority structure in which village heads were required to apprehend Polish laborers as well as report and deliver any Jews, Soviet prisoners of war, partisans, or strangers. This structure functioned as a surveillance system against all fugitives pursued by the Germans. The death penalty was enforced for anyone helping a fugitive Jew as well as for anyone failing to report and apprehend any fugitives. Fugitive Jews sheltered by Poles and captured by the Germans typically denounced their benefactors, whom the Germans then executed. Collectively, this created widespread communal fear that caused a desperate competition for survival and compelled village Poles to participate in the manhunts for fugitive Jews. Frydel also notes that, counterintuitively, Jews participated in these manhunts. He further points out that manhunts initiated by Poles acting independently of the village security system were the exception and occurred in specific circumstances. ”

The THIRD PARAGRAPH is problematic for one main reason.

THIRD PARAGRAPH MAIN REASON: The first sentence says that “Szmalcowniki – blackmailers – operated in Poland” but fails to note the fact that szmalcowniki consisted of Poles, Jews, Volksdeutsche, and Ukrainians. Because this distinction is not presented, the uninformed reader will likely assume that the term szmalcowniki applies to ethnic Poles. As a result, the first sentence indirectly conveys a single POV that needs to be counterbalanced with the facts so that an overall NPOV is presented. To achieve this, the first sentence needs to be revised slightly. Also, the word szmalcowniki is seldom capitalized in conventional sources and in this sentence, and in the last sentence, should remain so. In addition, two new sentences are needed to provide relevant, factual context.

THIRD PARAGRAPH CONCLUSION: Based on the above explanation, THE THIRD PARAGRAPH SHOULD BE REVISED AS FOLLOWS. “Several thousand Szmalcowniki - blackmailers - operated in German-occupied Poland, most of whom operated in cities near the ghettos established by the Germans. According to historian Tadeusz Piotrowski, szmalcowniki demanded money in exchange for not reporting on Jews in hiding and among them were Poles, Jews, Ukrainians, and Volksdeutsche. Szmalcowniki also blackmailed Poles who were sheltering Jews from the Germans. The Polish Underground State strongly opposed this sort of collaboration, and threatened szmalcowniki with death; sentences were usually given and carried out by the Special Courts.”

The FOURTH PARAGRAPH is problematic for eight main reasons. The first is that the first part of the first sentence is redundant. The second is that the second part of the first sentence presents an invalid descriptor. The third is that the entire first sentence needs to be rewritten to achieve contextual accuracy. The fourth is that the second sentence is contextually incomplete and requires factual expansion. The fifth is that the second sentence is supported by an invalid inline citation. The sixth is that the third sentence is also supported by an invalid inline citation. The seventh is that the fourth sentence is contextually incomplete and requires factual expansion. The eighth is that fifth sentence is contextually incomplete and requires factual expansion.

FOURTH PARAGRAPH FIRST REASON: This paragraph addresses the Blue Police and Baudienst; however, the first part of the first sentence begins with “In addition to peasantry and individual collaborators…” Because the second paragraph already addresses the “peasantry”, i.e., rural Poles, and “individual collaborators”, i.e., szmalcowniki, this first part of the first sentence is redundant and should be deleted.

FOURTH PARAGRAPH SECOND REASON: The second part of the first sentence contains an invalid descriptor. The word “mobilized”, i.e., assembled and readied military troops and supplies for war, is incorrect and should be deleted.

FOURTH PARAGRAPH THIRD REASON: Because the second part of the first sentence is contextually incomplete and requires factual expansion, the entire first sentence should be rewritten. The prewar police were ordered by the Germans to return to their prewar posts under threat of death or concentration camp internment and were forced into service. Moreover, the internal leadership of the Blue Police was gutted by the Germans, who comprised the higher ranks. To present factual historical context, the entire first sentence should be revised as follows: “The Germans conscripted the prewar Polish police, called the “Blue Police” (Policja Granatowa) because of their navy-blue uniform, and under threat of death or concentration camp internment, they were forced to fulfill German objectives while remaining under firm German command.”

FOURTH PARAGRAPH FOURTH REASON: The second sentence is contextually incomplete and requires factual expansion. For factual accuracy, the second sentence should be revised as follows: “Although their primary task was to act as a regular police force dealing with criminal activities, the Germans also used them to combat smuggling, round up Polish civilians for forced labor in Germany, participate in German-led patrols for Jewish ghetto escapees, and support German actions against the Polish resistance. ” Additionally for factual context, the following two sentences should be added: “Historian Tadeusz Piotrowski points out that the Jewish Ghetto Police, in conjunction with the Polish Blue Police, also participated in German-conducted roundups of fugitive Jews for deportation to extermination camps, concentration camps, forced-labor camps, or execution. ”

FOURTH PARAGRAPH FIFTH REASON: The second sentence is supported by an invalid inline citation , which should be removed for a number of reasons. First, the citation does not follow Misplaced Pages sourcing guidance for newspapers. Second, the newspaper article is clearly challengeable because of the lack of verifiability as required by Misplaced Pages. For example, the article’s lead photograph purportedly shows German and Blue Police in front of a building somewhere; however, no caption or citation is included to enable verification. Also, the article’s 23rd paragraph is the only place where Blue Police are mentioned. The article claims that Grabowski claims that Blue Police murdered Jews as they liquidated the ghettos. This implies the Blue Police liquidated all of the ghettos in German-occupied Poland, which is false. The Blue Police did not participate in the liquidation of the larger ghettos such as Warsaw, Łódź, Lwów, Wilno, Białystok, Lublin, Sosnowiec, Będzin, Kraków, Częstochowa, Lublin, Kielce, Piotrków Trybunalski, Radom, Grodno, and other cities. The liquidation of these ghettos was carried out by the Jewish Ghetto Police and Ukrainian and Baltic auxiliary forces. Moreover, the last sentence in the paragraph claims that Grabowski claims that Emanuel Ringelblum claims that “the ‘Blue’ police alone were responsible for ‘hundreds of thousands of Jewish deaths.’” This is false. In a 17 November 2016 paper he wrote for the USHMM, titled “The Polish Police: Collaboration in the Holocaust”, on page 17 Grabowski writes “Referring to the blood on the hands of the Polish policemen, Ringelblum was using a figure of speech, a metaphor.” Taken together, these reasons confirm inline citation should be deleted. To provide balance and present an NPOV as required by Misplaced Pages, the following sentences should follow the two new sentences outlined in FOURTH REASON above: “In assessing the role of the Blue Police, Holocaust scholar Raul Hilberg writes: ‘Of all the native police forces in occupied Eastern Europe, those of Poland were least involved in anti-Jewish actions…The Germans could not view them as collaborators, for in German eyes they were not even worthy of that role. They in turn could not join the Germans in major operations against Jews or Polish resisters, lest they be considered by traitors by virtually every Polish onlooker. Their task in the destruction of Jews was therefore limited. ” For further factual balance and NPOV appearance, Hilberg’s excerpt should be followed by the following sentence: “Some Blue Police worked for the Polish Underground, aided Jews, and are among Israel’s Righteous Among the Nations.”

FOURTH PARAGRAPH SIXTH REASON: The third sentence is supported by an invalid inline citation . The website URL cited, i.e., the website’s home page, does not provide the number of Polish Police in the General Government. If the website’s content includes “some 17,000 men”, the URL for the specific page on which that content appears should be cited. A reliable source that provides the peak number of Blue Police in the General Government should instead be used for the third sentence. Otherwise, the third sentence and inline citation should be deleted.

FOURTH PARAGRAPH SEVENTH REASON: The fourth sentence is contextually incomplete and requires factual expansion. The sentence introduces the Baudienst but does not indicate it was a forced-labor youth organization nor that the young Polish men who tried to elude service could be punished with death. This is similar to the text on the Blue Police, which excludes the fact that prewar police were conscripted and faced with the threat of death or concentration camp internment if they did not report for service. The only way the uninformed reader would even know the Baudienst was a forced-labor organization is by clicking the Baudienst hyperlink, which can’t be guaranteed. For factual accuracy, the fourth sentence should be revised as follows: “In several districts of the General Government, the Germans also created the Baudienst ("construction service"), a forced-labor organization of 18- to 23-year-olds subordinate to Germany’s Reich Labor Service.” Note that the 18-23 age range is specified on page 720 of inline citation .

FOURTH PARAGRAPH EIGHTH REASON: The first part of the fifth sentence misleads with false information. It claims that the Baudienst young men (junacy) helped round up Jews for “extermination”. This is false. Klaus-Peter Friedrich, in inline citation , page 721, says the junacy “took part in deportations” but there is no mention of “extermination” by either the Germans or junacy in this section of the document, which is the only place where the Baudienst are mentioned. Moreover, Klaus-Peter Friedrich, in inline citation , page 721, says the junacy consisted of 18- to 23-year-olds Poles and Ukrainians. This fact is missing in the fifth sentence and should be included. Also, the second part of the fifth sentence is misleading. In inline citation , page 721, Friedrich cites a specific event i.e., a German-led aktion against Jews interned in a “Jewish quarter” of Tarnów. However, as written, the second part of the fifth sentence omits this fact and instead presents this aktion as a common Baudienst activity in the General Government. Friedrich writes that the junacy “closed off the Jewish quarter” in Tarnów “in order to keep the inmates from fleeing.” Friedrich also writes “sometimes the Poles had to search houses and apartments after their Jewish inhabitants had been deported.” However, as written, the second part of the fifth sentence conveys the impression that Jews were not interned in a German-established ghetto and were simply residing in their homes when the Baudienst suddenly descended upon them.

FOURTH PARAGRAPH CONCLUSION: Based on the above explanations, THE SECOND PARAGRAPH SHOULD BE REVISED AS FOLLOWS. “The Germans conscripted the prewar Polish police, called the “Blue Police” (Polish: Policja Granatowa) because of their navy-blue uniform, and under threat of death or concentration camp internment, they were forced to fulfill German objectives while remaining under firm German command. Although their primary task was to act as a regular police force dealing with criminal activities, the Germans also used them to combat smuggling, round up Polish civilians for forced labor in Germany, participate in German-led patrols for Jewish ghetto escapees, and support German actions against the Polish resistance. Historian Tadeusz Piotrowski points out that the Jewish Ghetto Police, in conjunction with the Polish Blue Police, also participated in German-conducted roundups of fugitive Jews for deportation to extermination camps, concentration camps, forced-labor camps, or execution. In assessing the role of the Blue Police, Holocaust scholar Raul Hilberg writes: “Of all the native police forces in occupied Eastern Europe, those of Poland were least involved in anti-Jewish actions…The Germans could not view them as collaborators, for in German eyes they were not even worthy of that role. They in turn could not join the Germans in major operations against Jews or Polish resisters, lest they be considered by traitors by virtually every Polish onlooker. Their task in the destruction of Jews was therefore limited. Some Blue Police worked for the Polish Underground, aided Jews, and are among Israel’s Righteous Among the Nations. In several districts of the General Government, the Germans also created the Baudienst ("construction service"), which was a forced-labor organization of 18- to 23-year-old Poles and Ukrainians subordinate to Germany’s Reich Labor Service. The young Baudienst workers (Polish: Junacy) were sometimes used by the Germans in aktions, i.e., German campaigns of violence directed against Jews and Poles. In one German-led aktion conducted against Jews confined by the Germans in the Jewish quarter of Tarnów, Baudienst workers closed off the area in order to prevent the inmates from fleeing and also participated in their deportations. In this same aktion, they were made to search houses and apartments after their Jewish occupants had been deported, collect their belongings, and drag out anyone who was hiding.:721 By 1944, Baudienst strength had grown to some 45,000 servicemen.

The FIFTH PARAGRAPH is problematic for four main reasons. The first is that it that it consists of a single, run-on sentence. The second is that its description of the NSZ is incomplete. The third is that it presents a single POV. The fourth is that it makes an assertion unsupported by the facts.

FIFTH PARAGRAPH FIRST REASON: The fifth paragraph consists of a single, needlessly long, run-on sentence. It should be rewritten in the form of a paragraph and consist of logically-connected sentences as presented below in the FIFTH PARAGRAPH CONCLUSION.

FIFTH PARAGRAPH SECOND REASON: The fifth paragraph’s description of the NSZ is incomplete. An accurate description is presented in the FIFTH PARAGRAPH CONCLUSION below.

FIFTH PARAGRAPH THIRD REASON: The fifth paragraph presents a single POV, i.e., the NSZ collaborated with the Germans, the NSZ killed “Jewish partisans”, and the NSZ killed “Jewish refugees”. To provide balance and present an NPOV as required by Misplaced Pages, the paragraph should be rewritten as presented in the FIFTH PARAGRAPH CONCLUSION below.

FIFTH PARAGRAPH FOURTH REASON: The fifth paragraph makes an assertion unsupported by the facts. As written, the last two clauses of the fifth paragraph, i.e., “-- also collaborated with the Germans on several occasions, killing or giving away Jewish partisans to the German authorities and murdering Jewish refugees” claim the NSZ killed “Jewish partisans” and “Jewish refugees” because they collaborated with the Germans beforehand and acted on their demands. If any of the authors in the inline citations claimed this, it should be specifically cited. Otherwise, it should be rewritten as presented in the FIFTH PARAGRAPH CONCLUSION below.

FIFTH PARAGRAPH CONCLUSION: Based on the above explanations, THE FIFTH PARAGRAPH SHOULD BE REVISED AS FOLLOWS. “The Polish underground organization National Armed Forces (Narodowe Siły Zbrojne, or NSZ), which fought the Germans, Soviets, and Soviet-allied communist partisan forces such as the Gwardia Ludowa (GL) and Armia Ludowa (AL), has been accused of collaborating with the Germans and killing Jewish partisans :149 and fugitive Jews.:141 While some collaboration occurred in instances of a tactical cease fire, safe conduct, and prisoner swaps with the German military, there is no evidence the NSZ killed Jews on behalf of the Germans or ever gave an order that encouraged or commanded the killings of Jews because they were Jews. . The NSZ did, however, kill Jews as it fought Soviet-allied GL-AL units, a number of whom were Jews, as well as Jewish bandit bands formed by fugitive Jews. Both groups plundered, destroyed the properties of, and often murdered Poles while foraging for food and conducting Communist guerilla actions. Widely perceived as anti-Semitic :371, the ranks of the NSZ included Jews and NSZ members also aided Jews during the German occupation. . Additionally, Israel named some NSZ members as Righteous Among the Nations, such as Edward Kemnitz.

BialaPodlaska (talk) 15:23, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Again was too long with too much to digest for an edit request.Slatersteven (talk) 15:28, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
@BialaPodlaska: Read: the chances of somebody wanting to read the wall of texts above are very low. WP:BEBOLD and edit the article yourself, although given the controversies and vandalism in this topic area, we ask that you make a few hundred uncontroversial edits in other areas of the project, and don't get yourself blocked for few weeks. Then you should be able to edit this page yourself, and won't need any gatekeepers' permission. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:28, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

@Slatersteven “Again too long” – As before, an arbitrary criterion with no reference to Misplaced Pages policy on length. “Too much to digest” – Arbitrary criterion with no reference to Misplaced Pages policy on what constitutes “too much to examine or evaluate”. All that’s needed is to compare the 5 Misplaced Pages paragraphs with their 5 rewritten counterparts shown in each “PARAGRAPH CONCLUSION”. In doing so, you’ll see that the 5 Misplaced Pages paragraphs present a single POV while the 5 rewritten counterparts present the NPOV required by Misplaced Pages. Kindly give that a try and let me know what you agree with and what you disagree with. BialaPodlaska (talk) 18:39, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

WP:TPG#YES.Slatersteven (talk) 18:43, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Troubling ethnic bias

The "Poles and the Jews" section covers both positive and negative behavior of Poles, while the only subsection of "National minorities' role in the Holocaust" is "German-inspired massacres". In other words, this article covers the entire gamut of (ethnic) Polish behavior while relegating other ethnic groups to the role of collaborators or worse. How can we fix this structural issue? (t · c) buidhe 11:27, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

True. Assuming the section is not representative of the state of the research on the subject, I suspect there's no solution other than to a) verify the existing sources; and b) enrich the section with more, and more diverse sources. François Robere (talk) 14:11, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

1935-37 growing antisemitism in pre-war Poland

Thank you Buidhe, for updating the article. One point I desire to underline. You added this sentence: quote - "Antisemitism had been increasing in Poland before the outbreak of war. Anti-Jewish violence occurred in more than 150 localities between 1935 and 1937." Unless there are references that demonstrate a direct connection between pre-war (1935 to 1937) antisemitism in Poland and the Holocaust, I suggest removing this from the background section. - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:56, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Section POV tag

If an editor feels that some information is missing they should add it (provided sources exist) instead of tag shaming . Not sure what "positive activities" are being referenced here. Without an explanation the tag is spurious. Volunteer Marek 06:23, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

The explanation is provided just a few sections earlier. Are you seriously suggesting that none of the thousands of Lithuanians, Belarusians, Ukrainians and Germans recognized as Righteous Among the Nations carried out rescues in Poland? Wilm Hosenfeld and Anton Schmid are just two examples that spring to mind. (t · c) buidhe 09:53, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
Then add that info. Volunteer Marek 16:37, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Opinions in wikivoice

"Given the severity of the German measures designed to prevent this occurrence, the survival rate among the Jewish fugitives was relatively high and by far, the individuals who circumvented deportation were the most successful." Whether it's "high" or low, "successful" or otherwise is an opinion; opinions in wikivoice violate WP:IMPARTIAL. Such opinions should be attributed and only included when it's DUE, also, consider if the opposite opinion is also a widely held one. For instance, Jan Grabowski estimated that a large number of Jews who tried to escape and survive in such a way were killed directly or indirectly due to actions of Poles. (t · c) buidhe 10:26, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Correct. François Robere (talk) 14:06, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
Then attribute it. Volunteer Marek 16:46, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
I think the point Buidhe is making is that the article has more than just this example, and that in general editors in the TA should be mindful of attribution. François Robere (talk) 16:59, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
Then it's up to them to come to the talk page and explain which statements they think need to be attributed. I can't read their mind. Volunteer Marek 18:01, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

More importantly Buidhe, once again you made a series of controversial changes without bothering to discuss any of them, then when your edits were challanged you just did a blind revert and you used a false edit summary to justify that revert . Your revert doesn't undo "restoration of content that fails sourcing requirements". It's just a straight up blind revert. One needs only to scroll down to the first few paragraphs to see that you've removed material sourced to academic and other reliable sources. You even removed Yad Vashem. Are you really saying that Yad Vashem is not a reliable source which doesn't meet sourcing requirements?

If your edits are challenged then you need to discuss it rather than immediately blind reverting. You need to use accurate edit summaries. You need to justify your reversions on talk. We've been through this before. Let's not do it again. Volunteer Marek 16:46, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Does this have to do with the issue raised by the OP? If not, please open a new thread. Thanks. François Robere (talk) 17:00, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
We're good here, thanks for keeping an eye out though. Volunteer Marek 18:01, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. "Ale Historia: Prof. Jan Grabowski: Pomagaliśmy Niemcom zabijać Żydów", Gazeta Wyborcza, 17 March 2018: "A więc... ok. 200 tys. Żydów zostało zamordowanych, gdy się ukrywali po aryjskiej stronie?" – "Tak, i na podstawie szczegółowej analizy tego, w jakich okolicznościach ginęli, sformułowałem hipotezę badawczą, że większość – choć nie jestem na tym etapie badań w stanie powiedzieć, czy było to 60, czy 90 proc. – straciła życie z rąk Polaków albo przy ich współudziale." ("So... 200,000 Jews were murdered while hiding on the Aryan side?" – "Yes, and based on detailed analysis of the circumstances in which they perished, I formulated a research hypothesis that the majority – though at this stage of research I am not able to say whether it was 60 or 90 percent – lost their lives at the hands of Poles or with their complicity.")

Problems with VM's reverts

I will list all the problems:

  • VM removed information on prewar antisemitism, which reliable sources relate to the wartime events:
Extended content

Antisemitism had been increasing in Poland before the outbreak of war. Anti-Jewish violence occurred in more than 150 localities between 1935 and 1937. Prior to the war, right-wing Polish politicians encouraged Jews to emigrate in order to reduce the number of Jews in Poland.

  • "An estimated 157,000 to 375,000 Polish Jews either fled into the Soviet Union or were deported eastward by the Soviet authorities." -> VM replaced with "Within months, Polish Jews in the Soviet zone who refused to swear allegiance were deported deep into the Soviet interior along with ethnic Poles. The number of deported Polish Jews is estimated at 200,000–230,000 men, women, and children." According to reliable sources, not all Jews were deported, some went voluntarily. Deportation of non-Jews is irrelevant to this article
  • "Both occupying powers were hostile to the existence of a sovereign Polish state and endorsed policies of genocide." Restored by VM. The problem here is that Soviet and Nazi hostility to Poland is already obvious (since it was invaded and occupied by them), allegations that Soviet Union pursued a policy of "genocide" against Poland are irrelevant and need a much stronger source than what is provided
  • (see map) -> violates MOS:SEEIMAGE
  • "Polish nationals account for the majority of rescuers with the title of Righteous Among the Nations, as honored by Yad Vashem."... I moved most of this paragraph into the rescue section, where it belongs. VM replaced it at the top of "Poles and the Jews" section.
  • Some Jews were denounced or killed by erstwhile rescuers. Motivations of rescuers differed; some were motivated by compassion and altruism while others did so for money or sex. -> Removed by VM without explanation
  • VM added content stating "and 150,000 due to Soviet repressions. -> Totally irrelevant
  • About a fifth of Poland's prewar population perished. Their deaths were the result of deliberate acts of war, mass murder, incarceration in concentration camps, forced labor, malnutrition, disease, kidnappings, and expulsions. -> Deliberately aggregating Jewish and non-Jewish deaths when they have already been given separately. The general German repressions (as opposed to repressions specifically for helping Jews) is not relevant, most of them were in concentration camps for other reasons, etc.
  • There were, however, many Poles who risked death to hide entire Jewish families or otherwise help Jews on compassionate grounds. Polish rescuers of Jews were sometimes exposed by those very Jews if the Jews were found by the Germans, resulting in the murder of entire helper networks in the General Government. The number of Jews hiding with gentile Poles, quoted by Żarski-Zajdler, was about 450,000. -> Unreliable sources, opinion stated as fact (It's not for us to decide if there were "many" or indeed "few" Polish rescuers).
  • Possibly a million gentile Poles aided their Jewish neighbors. Historian Richard C. Lukas gives an estimate as high as three million Polish helpers; an estimate similar to those cited by other authors. -> Most of the sources cited are unreliable for the topic (i.e. Smith and Furth appear to have no expertise studying the Holocaust in Poland) and there's no indication given that this is a minority, probably even FRINGE view. As stated indeed in the methodology section of Furth's paper, all these estimates rely on there being many, many more Polish rescuers than known to the historical record. Andrzej Żbikowski  states, "Summing up this aspect of Polish historical writing—I might add that it continues, although it is none too popular—we may state that up to the year 2000 so-called Polish witnesses to the Holocaust were for most part perceived to be the Righteous, people fighting German terror tactics and willing to help those in danger. There were supposedly many, many more than noted in underground documents and postwar accounts."
  • The paragraph implies that German repressions were the only reason for not helping Jews. Reliable sources beg to differ. (t · c) buidhe 06:45, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. Cichopek, Anna (2014). Beyond Violence: Jewish Survivors in Poland and Slovakia, 1944–48. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 11. ISBN 978-1-107-03666-6. Antisemitism grew explosively. In just two years, between 1935 and 1937, anti-Jewish violence occurred in over 150 towns and villages, including Przytyk, Minsk Mazowiecki, and Brzecz nad Bugiem.
  2. ^ Cymet, David (1999). "Polish state antisemitism as a major factor leading to the Holocaust". Journal of Genocide Research. 1 (2): 169–212. doi:10.1080/14623529908413950. ISSN 1462-3528.
  3. Groth, Alexander J. (2019). "The Road to September 1939: Polish Jews, Zionists, and the Yishuv on the Eve of World War II". Israel Journal of Foreign Affairs: 1–4. doi:10.1080/23739770.2019.1610225.
  4. Cienciala, Anna M. (1995). "The Polish Government and Polish Jews, 1936–1945". The International History Review. 17 (1): 99–105. doi:10.1080/07075332.1995.9640703. Jabotinsky and his NZ O received support from the Polish government because both agreed on the need for a mass Jewish emigration from Poland to Palestine; the first because he believed, like Herzl, that Jews had no future in Europe; the second because it wanted to reduce the number of Polish Jews, who made up about 8% of an estimated 3 5 million Polish citizens.
  5. Edele & Warlick 2017, pp. 103, 123. sfn error: no target: CITEREFEdeleWarlick2017 (help)
  6. Judith Olsak-Glass (January 1999). "Review of Piotrowski's Poland's Holocaust". Sarmatian Review. Volume XIX, Number 1. Archived from the original on March 5, 2008. Both regimes endorsed a systematic program of genocide. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)
  7. Cite error: The named reference Brethour was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  8. ^ Michlic, Joanna B. (3 August 2018). "Gender Perspectives on the Rescue of Jews in Poland: Preliminary Observations". Polin Studies in Polish Jewry. 30: 407–426. ISSN 2516-8681. recent research in Poland and abroad has contributed to the dismantling of the hegemonic narratives of Polish solidarity with the Jews and demonstrated the incongruence of these themes with historical reality, mainly by uncovering previously suppressed dark aspects of the relationships. As a result, the emphasis has shifted to the study of rescuers for profit and those who abused their Jewish charges or denounced them later.
  9. Brethour, Miranda (2019). At the Confluence of Rescuer and Perpetrator: Jewish-Polish Relations in Hiding and Portraits of Polish Aid-Providers During the Holocaust in Poland as Detailed in the Testimonies of Jews, 1942-1945 (PhD thesis). Université d'Ottawa / University of Ottawa. p. abstract.
  10. Aleksiun, Natalia (17 April 2020). "Social Networks of Support: Trajectories of Escape, Rescue and Survival". A Companion to the Holocaust: 279–293. doi:10.1002/9781118970492.ch15. But many accounts of assistance involve grey areas of sexual exploitation or barter, humiliation and physical abuse, or financial profit. In recent years, scholars have raised questions about the role of non‐ Jews in enabling survival when they were not aware of assisting Jews, or when they treated Jews with cruelty and abused their power. In discussing the role of individuals, scholars have grappled with these negative attitudes and behavior toward Jews. In their work Jan Grabowski and Joanna Tokarska‐Bakir, for example, interrogated inadequate terms applied to rescue and the daily realities of assistance, pointing at the ambiguities and problems of the category of the Righteous with regard to many accounts from Eastern Europe.
  11. Cite error: The named reference encyclopedia.ushmm.org was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  12. "BBC - Tyne - Roots - Non-Jewish Holocaust Victims : The 5,000,000 others". www.bbc.co.uk.
  13. Materski & Szarota (2009), page 9. harvp error: no target: CITEREFMaterskiSzarota2009 (help)
  14. Piotrowski (1998), pp. 305–, 'Poland's losses.' harvp error: no target: CITEREFPiotrowski1998 (help)
  15. Materski & Szarota (2009), page 16. harvp error: no target: CITEREFMaterskiSzarota2009 (help)
  16. Materski & Szarota (2009), page 28. Some 800,000 Poles perished in concentration camps and mass murders. harvp error: no target: CITEREFMaterskiSzarota2009 (help)
  17. ^ Żarski-Zajdler, Władysław (1968). Martyrologia ludności żydowskiej i pomoc społeczeństwa polskiego . Warsaw: ZBoWiD. p. 16. ISBN 978-0813143323. Lucas (2013), p.14. Note 21 to "Introduction.".
  18. Cite error: The named reference WZaj:152–201 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  19. Cite error: The named reference HG was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  20. Cite error: The named reference Lukas1989 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  21. Caryn Mirriam-Goldberg (2012). Needle in the Bone: How a Holocaust Survivor and a Polish Resistance Fighter Beat the Odds and Found Each Other. p. 6. ISBN 978-1612345680. Approximately 3 million Poles rescued, hid, or otherwise helped Jews during the war, and fewer than a thousand denounced Jews to the Nazis.
  22. David Marshall Smith (2000). Moral geographies: ethics in a world of difference. p. 112. ISBN 9780748612789. It has been estimated that a million or more Poles were involved in helping Jews.
  23. Lukas (1989), p. 13 harvp error: no target: CITEREFLukas1989 (help) – Recent research suggests that a million Poles were involved, but some estimates go as high as three million. Lukas, 2013 edition. Archived July 5, 2018, at the Wayback Machine ISBN 0813143322.
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