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::There are probably plenty more children than those four who have hung out with Michael Jackson and never made claims that he molested them. Not sure how that could be relevant? If this were mentioned, it should also include that Corey Feldman said that when Michael Jackson bought him a gold watch from Disneyland and other gifts, it could have been grooming<ref>{{cite web|last=Respers |first=Lisa |url=https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/26/entertainment/corey-feldman-michael-jackson/index.html |title=Corey Feldman wonders if Michael Jackson was grooming him |publisher=CNN |date=2019-04-26 |access-date=2020-07-30}}</ref>. Without that it seems to be illogically positioned as counter evidence. With the extra Feldman information, it's too much space on this, and should be relegated to the Leaving Neverland article, which currently has a thorough discussion in the context of "celebrity reactions to the documentary". ] (]) 15:50, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
::There are probably plenty more children than those four who have hung out with Michael Jackson and never made claims that he molested them. Not sure how that could be relevant? If this were mentioned, it should also include that Corey Feldman said that when Michael Jackson bought him a gold watch from Disneyland and other gifts, it could have been grooming<ref>{{cite web|last=Respers |first=Lisa |url=https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/26/entertainment/corey-feldman-michael-jackson/index.html |title=Corey Feldman wonders if Michael Jackson was grooming him |publisher=CNN |date=2019-04-26 |access-date=2020-07-30}}</ref>. Without that it seems to be illogically positioned as counter evidence. With the extra Feldman information, it's too much space on this, and should be relegated to the Leaving Neverland article, which currently has a thorough discussion in the context of "celebrity reactions to the documentary". ] (]) 15:50, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
::: This is not about celebrity reactions, Brett Barnes is not a celebrity. This is about men who were in the same situation with Jackson as the accusers consistently stating that Jackson never did anything sexual. This is highly relevant since the accusers and the media depict Jackson as a serial preferential molester attracted to boys who used sleepovers to molest and in fact Robson Safechuck and their lawyers are on the record depicting these men and in fact many others as victims. As for Feldman's supposed statement, that was contradicted by Feldman himself in a recorded video where he said he was taken out of context. If anything this sentence under WP:Balance should be expanded to include all men who came forward to contradict Robson's Safechuck's allegation that there are many other victims out there and Jackson did not have boys around for any other reason but to molest them.] (]) 11:30, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
:: I wrote that comment, for some reason the login didn't work ] (]) 19:40, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
:: I wrote that comment, for some reason the login didn't work ] (]) 19:40, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Many of these questions arise frequently on the talk page concerning Michael Jackson.
To view an explanation to the answer, click the link to the right of the question.
Q1: Should the article mention reports that Michael Jackson was Muslim? (No.)
A1: No. The article should not mention reports that Michael Jackson was Muslim. Jackson had not publicly spoken about his exact religion in a number of years and only spoke about spirituality in general terms. The specific reports of a conversion ceremony for Jackson have been denied by his New York lawyer Londell McMillan. They were also denied by Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens and Dawud Wharnsby who were allegedly present at the ceremony. The Michael Jackson memorial service did not involve any Islamic rites. Without further details from his family or representatives, it will not be included in the article.
Q2: Should the "Jacko" name be mentioned in the lead? (No.)
A2: No. The "Jacko" name should not be mentioned in the lead. Past consensus goes against such inclusion. The name is a derogatory term used primarily by US/UK/Australian tabloids. The slogan is discussed in the relevant section of the article.
Q3: Should the article mention that Jackson reportedly had cancer/blindness/liver disease/AIDS, etc.? (No.)
A3: No.
The article should not mention that Jackson reportedly had cancer, blindness, liver disease, AIDS, etc. Until such claims are confirmed by a Jackson representative it will not go in the article at all. These claims are largely fabricated by tabloids.
Q4: Should the article mention that Jackson reportedly had a secret child called Omer Bhatti? (No.)
A4: No.
This claim was denied by Bhatti and only a DNA test would resolve the matter.
Q5: Isn't Jackson the seventh child of the Jackson family, not the eighth? (No.)
A5: No.
Marlon had a twin, Brandon, who died shortly after birth. This makes Michael the eighth child.
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
News items involving this article were featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "In the news" column on April 22, 2004, and June 25, 2009.
Current status: Featured article
Michael Jackson's religion was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 16 November 2009 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Michael Jackson. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.
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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 November 2019
It is suggested that '..26 American Music Awards' in the lead be edited as '26 American Music Awards (more than any other male artist)' given that Jackson significantly leads over the next male artist, Kenny Rogers who has 19 AMAs.
https://www.theamas.com/winners-database/top-winners-leaderboard/
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Karthik.vignesh (talk • contribs) 14:59, November 25, 2019 (UTC)
Inclusion of statements by people that Michael Jackson did not molest them
I deleted this sentence
Close associates of Jackson, such as Corey Feldman, Aaron Carter, Brett Barnes, and Macaulay Culkin, said that Jackson had not molested them.
on the grounds that it is irrelevant to the section. @BD2412: suggested this change should be discussed. So let's discuss! What's the argument for including it?
The obvious point is that some people have made claims about the subject that contravenes the experience of other similarly situated people. BD2412T04:51, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
There are probably plenty more children than those four who have hung out with Michael Jackson and never made claims that he molested them. Not sure how that could be relevant? If this were mentioned, it should also include that Corey Feldman said that when Michael Jackson bought him a gold watch from Disneyland and other gifts, it could have been grooming. Without that it seems to be illogically positioned as counter evidence. With the extra Feldman information, it's too much space on this, and should be relegated to the Leaving Neverland article, which currently has a thorough discussion in the context of "celebrity reactions to the documentary". 24.218.57.154 (talk) 15:50, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
This is not about celebrity reactions, Brett Barnes is not a celebrity. This is about men who were in the same situation with Jackson as the accusers consistently stating that Jackson never did anything sexual. This is highly relevant since the accusers and the media depict Jackson as a serial preferential molester attracted to boys who used sleepovers to molest and in fact Robson Safechuck and their lawyers are on the record depicting these men and in fact many others as victims. As for Feldman's supposed statement, that was contradicted by Feldman himself in a recorded video where he said he was taken out of context. If anything this sentence under WP:Balance should be expanded to include all men who came forward to contradict Robson's Safechuck's allegation that there are many other victims out there and Jackson did not have boys around for any other reason but to molest them.castorbailey (talk) 11:30, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
On reflection I think it's right to delete this. We don't need to bend over backwards in the name of "balance" in this section - what's important is to concisely summarise the accusations, anything else should be covered in the full article. Popcornfud (talk) 20:22, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
I agree with admin BD2412 that changes like this cannot be made to a featured article without first discussing it here. The inclusion for this is simple. WP:Balance. Removing the sentence will make this section unbalanced. Furthermore, these are living people who have time after time been falsely accused of being abused by someone who did not abuse them, per their own words. It is relevant for a balanced topic. TruthGuardians (talk) 19:04, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
I believe that keeping the sentence in the article is useful because the public still speculates about whether those men were abused or not so it's fair to include their denials. I agree with those who have motivated the inclusion of the sentence to give a more balanced view on the topic and it's also a very short and concise sentence so it doesn't really burden or unnecessarily prolong the article too much. GiuliaZB (talk) 21:25, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
Each sentence no matter how short in this section tips the implication one way or another, there's no objective way to say if it's balanced as a whole, but this sentence in this placement falsely implies that people saying Michael Jackson spent time with them and did not molest them help to prove he didn't molest others. If it's not doing that job, it's irrelevant. (and if those are responses to allegations/speculation that he molested Corey Feldman etc, they would belong in a section about those allegations, not here). It should be left to the longer article that gets into the nuance. BrightVamp (talk) 00:27, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
The fact that their assertions were reported in reliable sources is what makes it relevant. By including it, we merely reflect the balance that sources with editorial oversight consider to be appropriately informative with respect to the subject. BD2412T01:49, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Again, I have to ask: how does the statements of people who weren't molested bear on the veracity of people who say they were? It's only balance if you think it counters Robson and Safechuck's claims. But if the accusation was murder, would people coming forward to say that person never tried to murder me, even though there were plenty of opportunities, be persuasive? BrightVamp (talk) 03:22, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Again, reliable sources chose to report those accounts in this context, which reflects their editorial judgment that it is information significant for readers to have a complete picture of the situation. Perhaps you should contact The Daily Telegraph and USA Today and Vibe and try to convince them that it was a mistake for them to report these statements. BD2412T03:51, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
As I said, public statements in response to the claims might be relevant on that basis, but the placement of the sentence, between his estate's response and discussion of rebuttal documentaries, incorrectly presents it as counterevidence. Also, in reporting of their statements, you will read that Corey Feldman speculated that Michael Jackson's behavior towards him could have been grooming (citation above), and that Aaron carter said there was "one thing that (Jackson) did that was a little bit inappropriate". That information would also be important for a complete picture of the situation (and so the whole thing should go on the Leaving Neverland page) BrightVamp (talk) 04:19, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Corey Feldman explained that his comments pertaining to grooming were taken out of context and that he'll never take part of a trend that consists in accusing Jackson: "And I'm never gonna be that guy that's all of a sudden gonna jump on the bandwagon and try and say something happened. That's not gonna happen, so please stop thinking that, stop saying that; that's not gonna happen." As for that sentence in question, there is absolutely nothing improper to it in regards to this article. The article mentions accusers, and the article mentions supporters. It is perfectly proper, due balance, and removing it will precisely give undue weight to the accusers. Besides, this is an article on Michael Jackson, not a trial case. It is not about countering "Robson and Safechuck's claims" per se, but providing sourced information to the readers. If the accusation was murder, some of those close to Michael may have come forward and explained how his character was atypical of a murderer or a physically violent person, but that is not what the accusation is about, so that is not pertinent to the discussion at hand. Israell (talk) 04:44, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
As for that statement by Aaron Carter published in People Magazine, he shortly afterwards clarified his words and repeatedly stated it was not sexual. One of the things he wrote: “My story VALIDATES in MY OPINION that Michael didn’t do anything sexual to others.” People Magazine then covered his clarification.. A few more of Carter's clarifications: “I in no way shape or form accused him of being a child molester.” “I’m sorry but where in the definition ‘inappropriate’ does it mention sexual misconduct?” “everyone having my back I appreciate you. My reasoning for even speaking on this subject is to tell my truth, be real and to also have his back based on my experiences with Michael. he was an amazing guy, I stand by that. So I ask u not to turn this into something it isn’t.” Israell (talk) 05:14, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
This has been discussed numerous times in the talk page archive. It's a bit like the Elvis Aron/Aaron Presley debate. Jackson's death certificate says Joseph which gives it legal standing, although the infobox points out that he was often known as Joe. He also appears to have had a driver's license and passport with Joe.--♦IanMacM♦16:31, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
I don't know if anybody has mentioned this before in the discussion regarding Michael's middle name but Jermaine Jackson writes in his book "You Are Not Alone: Michael, Through a Brother’s Eyes":"I was forever curious as a child about how two people’s taste could go from the exotic-sounding ‘Jermaine LaJuane’ to ‘Michael Joe’. From somewhere, and especially after Michael’s death, a rumour began that his middle name was Joseph. Maybe this myth prefers the echo with our father’s name because the crossover reads better about a father and son who struggled to see eye to eye. ‘Joe’ was his middle name, as recorded on his birth certificate."On the court transcripts from the 2005 trial is also written "Michael Joe Jackson". 95.168.251.21 (talk) 17:54, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
The birth certificate of Paris Jackson from 1998 gives Michael Joseph Jackson as the father. This is a lot like the Elvis Aron/Aaron Presley situation, because both names appear to have been used on legal documents. I'm not sure if we'll ever get a definitive answer on this one, but the text of the article is clear that both names were used during his lifetime. It probably doesn't help to say that one is absolutely right, and the other is absolutely wrong.--♦IanMacM♦18:33, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
A parent's name on the birth certificate of their child is less definitive than the person's own birth records. I know one case where a parent lied about their age on the child's birth certificate. Nobody is checking that stuff; they only check the baby's information. Binksternet (talk) 18:51, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
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