Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:25, 17 April 2021

• WP:ANI
• WP:AN/I

This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.

• Before posting:
  • Consider other means of dispute resolution first
  • Read these tips for dealing with incivility
  • If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page
  • If the issue concerns use of admin tools or other advanced permissions, request an administrative action review
  • Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly.
• Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem
• Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight.

When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough.
You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so.

Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)

• Refining the administrator elections process
• Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace

User CejeroC disruptively editing

CejeroC (talk · contribs) has been inserting the parameter color_process into the infobox for multiple live-action film articles, and while it is a valid parameter, the documentation explicitly states, in fact in the first sentence of the description of the parameter, "For animated films only." I first notified Cejero of their misuse of the parameter in December of last year. On March 16 I became aware that they were continuing to misuse the parmeter and issued another warning that day. The following day I issued a final warning as they had continued to insert this parameter on live-action films. As far as I'm aware, neither any of my warnings nor any other messages left on their Talk page have been acknowledged, perhaps because they appear to be editing using a mobile device. I understand that as a result of that they may not even be aware that they are receiving notifications at their Talk page. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that leaves any options other than to block them until they acknowledge that they have read and understand that they are misusing the parameter in question. I would be happy to see them unblocked as soon as they indicated that they would stop applying that parameter for non-animated films, and am amenable to other options that will similarly result in their no longer making these disruptive edits.

Examples of misuse of parameter (all from March 17 or later):

• March 21 (after final warning) -
• March 21 (after final warning) -
• March 17 (precipitating final warning) -

Thank you for your time. DonIago (talk) 04:30, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

I have also observed no evidence of acknowledgement, apology or refutation argument from the user. The ability to acknowledge and either explain or apologise for disruptive editing (with merit or not) is essential. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 09:05, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

CejeroC appears to have always edited on mobile, and almost all their edits are tagged as being made with the WMF mobile app rather than mobile web. They do not appear to have ever edited either a user talk page or an article talk page. It is my understanding (I don't have a smartphone but have seen Iridescent raise this issue) that the mobile app gives editors no indication they have messages other than a number that they may well overlook or misinterpret, and no link to their talk page. This person may well have no idea they have been warned against doing this. Is there a page they have hit repeatedly where a hidden note could be left? I know this came up here concerning another editor recently, and I've seen disbelief expressed on a Misplaced Pages-criticism site that I should not name on-wiki (by, IIRC, a member of Arbcom), so please excuse me if I have this wrong, but we urgently need to develop heuristics for such situations, because the WMF is apparently not likely to fix this glaring problem that we can't communicate with a very large class of relatively new community members. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:47, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

The only pattern I saw is that their edits have focused on articles for older films, articles that probably don't have a lot of eyes on them. Unfortunately they appear to go in, make their edits, and then don't revisit the same article for months at a time, likely assisted by the aforementioned limited-oversight on such articles (i.e. if an article on your watchlist never updates, why would you go back to it?). I undid a large number of their erroneous edits last week, which may get their attention, but that's speculation. Unfortunately, in the interests of getting their attention, given their unpredictable editing habits, I'm not sure there's any option other than to block them. It's not what I'd prefer; I just don't know any other way to flag them down at this point. DonIago (talk) 21:16, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

They don't have e-mail enabled either, so I took a radical step and plopped a big fat message to them at the top of Draft:List of Columbia Pictures films (1950–1959), which I saw they'd edited a couple of times recently. I'm not sure whether the app shows hidden messages, so I restricted my WP:IAR to disfiguring a draft. Yngvadottir (talk) 22:18, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Actually, the Android app (for me at least) gives logged-in users a very jarring and hard-to-ignore system-level alert. No idea how reliable that is, though. It's logged out users (on all apps and the mobile web), and all iOS app users who live in a bubble. See WP:THEYCANTHEARYOU. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 22:23, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

That's interesting, thank you. I'm flying utterly blind here, I know almost nothing about using smartphones, so, a stupid question: after the ding and vibrate, can an Android app user then find the message? Is there a way to get to their talk page? IIRC Iridescent was laying a lot of the blame on the Minerva skin that's forced on mobile users by default? Yngvadottir (talk) 01:19, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Just tried a few more tests. Even with the app closed and the phone locked, I got a system-level push notification a few minutes after leaving a message on my alt's talk page. In it, there was a link to the talk page. I tried again with notifications for the app blocked (in Android settings), and of course got no push notification, as expected. But there was also no in-app notification, or at least it was so subtle that I missed it. I have no idea how many people block notifications for the app.

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T274359
Aside, I tried using the app to reply here. Put "wp:ani" into the search bar and clicked the first result. Got a copy of ANI from August 2020! Going to sign off for tonight. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 04:24, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm use the Misplaced Pages Beta app for browsing and found that it is showing me "Stayfree76" from 27 August 2020!! Vikram Vincent 14:55, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Disruptive edits continue. . DonIago (talk) 14:32, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Would it be possible to issue a block to persuade them to look at their talk page? Padgriffin 15:58, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

That was my thinking. Block them so that they'll read their talk page, acknowledge that they've been misusing the color_process parameter and will stop doing so, and then unblock them unless there are other concerns as well. Some of the film info they've added has been erroneous as well, but I don't have enough examples to make a case for a block on that basis. DonIago (talk) 20:38, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

CejeroC is continuing to misuse the color_process parameter, as demonstrated by this edit as of March 28. DonIago (talk) 23:08, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

I propose a WP:CIR block to persuade the user to look at their talk page and actually respond to messages since they do not appear to be aware of this discussion and their talk page in general. It seems to be the only option we have to get them to engage in discussion with the community. Padgriffin 11:47, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

On second thought that might not work either since custom block notices are broken on the mobile app. Does anyone have any other ideas? Padgriffin 11:59, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Yeah: dump the mobile apps. EEng 12:24, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

In terms of stopping their disruptive edits, I don't know that any other options are available. I'd certainly prefer an option other than a block, but needing to fix their edits every time they do this is getting old quickly. We can hope that if they couldn't edit via the mobile app then they'd take a look at their PC to try to figure out what was going on. DonIago (talk) 17:46, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

• I no longer feel so alone and inadequate. I have never been able to make use of the phone for editing or even viewing current content. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 14:02, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
  • I tried to view my Talk page using my phone and the Misplaced Pages app, IIRC, and I could see section headers but no text. I have some tricky coding on my page, but still... DonIago (talk) 17:46, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
• @Padgriffin Are you referring to Misplaced Pages:Communication is required? 𝟙𝟤𝟯𝟺𝐪𝑤𝒆𝓇𝟷𝟮𝟥𝟜𝓺𝔴𝕖𝖗𝟰 (𝗍𝗮𝘭𝙠) 22:48, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

User is reintroducing color_process after Doniago removed it. This is honestly getting frustrating at this point. Padgriffin 11:04, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the catch! This implies that they either didn't notice that their previous addition had been reverted, or decided to reinsert the parameter regardless, without discussion. Perhaps it should be noted at this juncture that they also don't use edit summaries. DonIago (talk) 15:30, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

User is STILL inappropriately adding color_process after numerous attempts at communication and getting them to stop. Padgriffin 15:47, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Another example of the user adding color_process after repeated warnings. Padgriffin 15:50, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

I think, after all this discussion, the only viable option is to block. People can't keep checking/correcting these edits while being unable to communicate with CejeroC. It's a poor solution but it will hopefully get their attention and an inquiry from them. Cheers, Mark Ironie (talk) 23:12, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

It doesn't look like anyone tried posting to his account on Meta so I did. Cheers, Mark Ironie (talk) 23:37, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

1001st attempt at throwing spaghetti at the wall, Do we have any ability to log an editor out? If so, do we have any ability to alter the "Main Page" they see or any messaging they would get upon logging in? I'm guessing not, but spaghetti meet wall Slywriter (talk) 23:42, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

It's a bit mind-blowing to me that he'd be a senior database administrator for WMF but never check his WP-EN Talk page... DonIago (talk) 23:46, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

@Mark Ironie: What makes you think this case (CejeroC) is connected with JCrespo_(WMF)? Johnuniq (talk) 23:57, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Crap. At some point I got into the next section here, confused the names. Because there, editors were having difficulty reaching JCrespo_(WMF). I'm really off my game tonight. Cheers, Mark Ironie (talk) 00:10, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

• I replaced User talk:CejeroC with a simple warning. Their lengthy talk page looked like something that I would ignore if I were a new user so it seemed best to make it clear. I would prefer some uninvolved opinions on whether a block would be appropriate if this continues but I'm prepared to implement a block if needed as the time wasting cannot continue. Johnuniq (talk) 23:52, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  I think a block would be appropriate at this point. Maybe around 48h – they seem to be editing almost daily, so that should be enough to get them to notice –, with a block message that tries to direct them to use their talk page. I only just noticed someone said earlier those aren't displayed. Still, not like there are any other options. 22:50, 4 April 2021 (UTC) – Rummskartoffel (talk • contribs) 22:40, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Doesn't seem to have worked- they're STILL doing the same thing! Padgriffin 11:48, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

• And AGAIN. That old saying about the definition of insanity seems extremely relevant right now. I would hate to block this user since their edits have been generally constructive but I don't want to babysit and patrol their edits for the rest of my Wiki-editing career. Padgriffin 11:54, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Relying on WP:IAR, I temporarily replaced Draft:List of Columbia Pictures films (1940–1949) with a message to CejeroC. They edited that page recently and frequently. Johnuniq (talk) 00:01, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
    • Thank you for your efforts to get their attention! DonIago (talk) 00:55, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

User has either not noticed or just doesn’t care- they’re still adding color_process. I’m afraid that the only viable option here might just be blocking them in the hope that they’ll check their talk page. Padgriffin 13:41, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

They've figured out how to use the revert option now. Padgriffin (talk) 15:16, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

• Correction- they did a manual revert. Point still stands. Padgriffin (talk) 15:26, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
• I've blocked for 48 hours as suggested above, given the evidence of continued disruptive editing. If the behavior continues right after the block expires, an indef will be appropriate. _signed, Rosguill 03:44, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

  Looks like they're right back at it :/. Support re-block for longer duration or indef. – Rummskartoffel (talk • contribs) 13:43, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

  I've indeffed and left a note that the block can be lifted as soon as they demonstrate that they can engage with other editors. _signed, Rosguill 15:15, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your help everyone. Unfortunate that it came to this, but it seems that without a better way to compel editors to review their Talk pages, blocks may be the best (though not great) tool available. DonIago (talk) 16:17, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

This is an extremely sad situation, and to be frank, I blame the WMF for it. I started a thread at User talk: Jimbo Wales and I encourage other editors to comment there. Cullen Let's discuss it 17:51, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Note that the general situation was finally acknowledged by the WMF on 7 April, and some action seems to be happening. I would suggest waiting a short while to see if something good comes from this (with a clear timeline), and if this turns out to be unsatisfactory, to start an RfC to disable editing from these apps from our side out (through the edit filter probably). Fram (talk) 07:37, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Just a note to lead message: for anyone using TemplateData the sentence ‘the documentation explicitly states, in fact in the first sentence of the description of the parameter, "For animated films only."’ was never actually true. This includes visual editor users, TemplateWizard users, and I assume Wikimedia app users. I’ve fixed that. I think this is what caused the whole issue in the first place, even before the apps’ clear communication issues that are mentioned here and elsewhere. stjn 16:18, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Me, I have been trying to test on my mobile account whether adding User:MER-C/payattention.js to the common.js page can alert editors. It does, but only if I am editing in desktop mode. Is there a way to tweak that script so that it shows an alert on the mobile interface too? Yes, I know we'd need an WP:INTADMIN every time we wanted to use this but it might help until the WMF can resolve the notification issue. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:49, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: I've made a modified version that works on mobile as well. Keep in mind this is only for mobile web, though. I don't think the apps execute user scripts, so this won't help reach editors like CejeroC. – Rummskartoffel (talk • contribs) 21:50, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

User disallowing others' edits performed during their vacation

User Yaakov Wa. has been on a wikibreak (per this announcement). Upon return today, editor reverted to the last revision before this break, effectively rolling back all edits by other users during their absence. Following my reversion of this action, user repeated the rollback. I have attempted to discuss this with the editor at Talk:Messiah in Judaism#Suggestion and am unable to intervene further due to 3RR.

For context, this page has since 19 February been the venue for a high volume of tendentious editing by Yaakov Wa., largely without consensus or substantial discussion (notwithstanding Yaakov's attempts to contact other users via email and video conference). Exasperated attempts by Warshy at discussion in more appropriate venues led to one prior ANI report. Attempts by myself and Editor2020 to at least improve the quality of Yaakov's edits have led to the incident I am reporting here. Ibadibam (talk) 07:53, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

I've reverted. Seems to be a bit of a WP:OWN situation going on here. — Czello 07:58, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

• This is a fairly new editor. Ibadibam did mention why it wasn't a great idea, but there hasn't been real discussion of it. Technically, WP:BRD still applies and this is really a content issue, although his reverting twice in 24 hours isn't good. This really needs to be on the article talk page, with an attempt to resolve it there. Hopefully it won't have to have admin intervention, but at this time, it really isn't ripe for sanctions. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 10:09, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Dear Ibadibam, and any other editors,

Firstly, in regards to discussions where communication is paramount, I believe it is preferable to use verbal and visual communication. I am available for approximately 4 more hours from posted time. If any editor wishes to set up zoom meeting, please put message on User_talk:Yaakov_Wa. and this meeting will be open to all editors. Up until verbal/visual communication is achieved, I will do my best to understand and respond via non-verbal communication.

Now, in regards to situation:

I will lay out response in three parts. a)will lay out general background of editing Messiah in Judaism, b) then discuss edits over break. c) will discuss rational for keeping proposed structure until discussion at talk page.

c) Based on the above, I believe that the article should be temporarily kept according to prior consensus of overhaul (with exception of etymology). I am very open to discussion and feedback. Ibadibam appears competent(I have probably asked at least 10 users to give assistance and feedback to this article). I welcome Ibadibam's future discussions and contributions. I encourage any editors (preferably with hebrew and technical skills) to make proposals and edits to this article. However, as Dennis mentioned, we must go according to WP:BRD, which in this case requires us to temporarily have Messiah in Judaism at prior consensus.

Blessings,

Yaakov W. Yaakov Wa. (talk) 21:55, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

References

1. https://www.chabad.org/library/tanya/tanya_cdo/aid/1028868/jewish/Compilers-Foreword.htm
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Messiah_in_Judaism&diff=prev&oldid=1008021552
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Messiah_in_Judaism&diff=prev&oldid=1008024839
4. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Messiah_in_Judaism&diff=1008091155&oldid=1008086044
5. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Messiah_in_Judaism&diff=1008138028&oldid=1008138013
6. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Messiah_in_Judaism&diff=1008196943&oldid=1008185172
7. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Messiah_in_Judaism&diff=1008146832&oldid=1008144270
8. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Messiah_in_Judaism&diff=1008150760&oldid=1008146832
9. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Messiah_in_Judaism&diff=1008141975&oldid=1008138225
10. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Messiah_in_Judaism&diff=prev&oldid=1008024839
11. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Messiah_in_Judaism&diff=1010087423&oldid=1010086714

• the response above rather than alleviate concerns only increases them in particular that the editor is not familiar with WP:OWN and WP:NPOV. The editor is attempting to over-represent a one-sided accounting of the issue according to a particular religious sect. They also claim a consensus for an overhaul when really, one lightly active editor gave a message of support. Maybe this can be solved at the talk page but if nothing else, they should be warned that they are not to revert edits because they need time to personally review the edits before restoring the ones they find acceptable. This isn't a pending changes queue and they are not the sole arbitrator of what readers can see. Even now, they are expressing opinions on which editors are competent (and what skills sets are preferred to edit the article) and I am concerned that point c is a belief that WP:BRD gets their version restored and other editors will have to negotiate consensus around their preferences. Slywriter (talk) 22:25, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
• BRD isn’t about giving an editor time to review edits before the public is *allowed* to see them. Reverts should be only for when an editor has a reason to disagree with an edit. (Never thought I would have to write that.) That and their tone in the above post seems to suggest they think they are the editor-in-chief for this article. But, given their newness, I suspect it’s more WP:NOCLUE than WP:OWN. Probably of greater concern is what appears to be their POV editing that’s already been referred to. DeCausa (talk) 22:36, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
• I completely agree with Slywriter and DeCausa's comments above, and I would like to fill in some other details, if I can. Ibadibam, Editor2020 and myself have been so far the only regular, veteran editors who have edited the page since this completely biased, one-sided religious POV so-called "overhaul" was one-sidedly 'declared,' pretty much out-of-the-blue. I want to be on the record again here, as I have been consistently on the article's talk-page discussions, that the new one-sided declaration above, that a supposed "consensus" for this so-called "overhaul" was ever achieved with me is completely false and misleading. I continued to consistently oppose the "overhaul" up to the user's one-sidedly declared "break," and I am still opposed to it at this moment. I posted several more in-depth arguments against the basic motivation and the completely biased religious POV that this new user brings to the task, based on all the primary sources he is singularly using for the proposed task, and I also declared there that I was still considering going back to the article's last stable version, before this so-called one-sided "overhaul" started. I still have this version specified in the article's talk-page. My suggestion at this point would be to go back to that stable version, and allow the new editor to re-start his attempts at changing certain paragraphs or sections by proposing localized, limited changes on the talk-page first, and have this proposed localized, limited changes discussed and approved. Once every new localized, limited change is proposed, discussed, and approved by all involved editors, then it can be implemented. That is how I had originally suggested the new user goes about his intended task. He gave me a short reply at that point, which I did not bother to reply to, and he took it then one-sidedly to mean I was withdrawing my explicitly stated reservations about the entire "task." Thank you, warshy 23:34, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

  @Warshy: Starting over seems like a good idea. I suggest you propose a revert to the stable version on the talk page and see what the other involved editors think. M.Bitton (talk) 00:04, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

I believe it will be preferable for anyone with questions to join zoom meeting on my talk page. Non-verbal communication is not-very-effective communication.Yaakov Wa. (talk) 23:25, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

This isn't how we handle things on Misplaced Pages. We discuss articles on their talk page, not through a Zoom meeting. RickinBaltimore (talk) 23:32, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

I remember already explaining to Yaakov Wa that relevant talk pages should be used, so that WP:CONSENSUS can be assessed, not only by the article's history, but also by the talk archives. That is also where RFCs take place, etc. Misplaced Pages editors are free to refuse invitations to off-WP venues and the state of the article should not depend on their presence (or absence) there. Some editors may even consider such invitations suspicious. —PaleoNeonate – 03:57, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

• I notice that Yaakov Wa has a habit of posting invites to multiple editors’ talk pages asking them to edit Messiah in Judaism. It’s been claimed on the article talk page that Yaakov Wa is editing to push a Chabad POV, and a cursory look at their edits seems to justify that claim. It’s not clear to me how he’s selecting these editors he contacts (he usually refers to seeing relevant ‘skills’ in their edits elsewhere) but what he said here, and this post to an editor with a Chabad user box, raises a question of an attempt at WP:CANVASSING. DeCausa (talk) 09:08, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
• There is a branch of Chabad who does not acknowledge the existence of streams of thought different from their own regarding moshiach. NPOV is literally against their religion. if Yaakov Wa is part of that sect, he should probably be topic-banned until he gets a sense of how Misplaced Pages works and decides whether it's for him. 207.172.174.5 (talk) 01:03, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

• Yaakov Wa., you talk of non-verbal communication being ineffective, but that is what we use at Misplaced Pages. If it isn't effective for you, then this is the wrong hobby for you. I'm not going to Zoom with you (or anyone), and most other's aren't either. Besides, all discussion about an article are supposed to take place here so everyone can participate. Reverting to your favored version is still edit warring and WILL get you blocked. Read that last line twice, please. Read WP:BRD. Twice. You don't seem to understand how things work here. They don't work according to your preferences, there is an established set of guidelines and policies that you are expected to follow. Reading your replies, I don't have high hopes for your future. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:56, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Topic ban proposal (Yaakov Wa.)

Given the ongoing issues with Yaakov Wa.'s editing evidenced above and in prior ANI discussions, and taking into account this very recent response that suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of our policy concerning original research, I think that a topic ban from Jewish theology, broadly construed, for 1 month is appropriate. I also think that they should be formally warned against inviting editors to resolve editing disputes through off-Misplaced Pages venues. _signed, Rosguill 04:12, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

• Given the tone-deaf response, I would agree but would opt for 90 days. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 09:25, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support But could his return (whether 30 or 90 days) be conditional on satisfying an admin of his understanding of WP:OR, WP:PRIMARY, WP:NPOV and, well, basically what’s expected in writing full grammatical sentences when adding content? I’m not sure what’s going to change just through a period of absence. (Btw, I wasn’t even sure if he was replying to me (in Rosguill’s diff) or just carrying on with his original post as if my post was invisible. I think the latter. Either way I could see there was no point in saying anything else.) DeCausa (talk) 09:48, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Oppose for now per mine and Slywriter’s today’s comments below. On condition of finding and their accepting a mentor. DeCausa (talk) 20:36, 12 April 2021 (UTC) Per this, back to Support. DeCausa (talk) 11:35, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support I have deep concerns about the insistence to take article development off of talk pages. This effectively creates an elite group who edit this one article and anyone who is unable or uncomfortable joining their clicque calls doesn't get to collaborate. WP is a place of written communication- which, by the way- is still verbal communication- it is purely verbal, where spoken communication actually includes more non-verbal with tone of voice, pitch, volume, and facial expressions coloring what is being said. WP is for everyone to contribute to- and in order for that to happen, previous discussions must be accessible to future editors- not a summary of what one person heard- but the actual words used. Anyone who tries to take away this fundamental facet of WP creation- is missing our purpose and what makes us special. And, I believe, is experiencing a serious case of WP:OWN. For this reason- I support a t-ban until the user can learn to collaborate using the appropriate tools and share knowledge and ownership among all editors. Nightenbelle (talk) 14:22, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

• Strong Support Block Editor has resorted to disruptive trolling and needs a break- possibly permanently but I would support less to start with Nightenbelle (talk) 17:47, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support a topic-ban. The insistence on Zoom discussions violates various policies and guidelines, including article ownership, and has aspects of not being here to edit collaboratively. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:05, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support wouldn't go so far as to say he's Not Here, he does not understand how Misplaced Pages works and I think that misunderstanding makes him a net negative on these topics. I don't think 30 days will be enough, but he's a new editor so 90 days might be too much. StarM 16:35, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Upgrade to strong support for TBan if not a site ban based on the below subthread and Talk:Olam_katan where he shows he does not understand or respect how Misplaced Pages sourcing works. Since a topic ban will not prevent him from editing, I'm not sure it will stop him. StarM 13:39, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: from their responses, I honestly think that he may not have a good grasp of English and may not understand what we are saying.

h 13:16, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

• comment looking at their other contributions- I think they don't understand why WP won't accept them as an expert- they are arguing for inclusion of their own analysis on multiple articles- yes it might be a language issue- but its a problem that they seem disinclined to discuss or stop. Nightenbelle (talk) 13:37, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

• They’ve posted these thoughts on their user page. Taking that with this self-revert and this on the talk page of that article, I don’t think language or NOTHERE or OWN etc is what’s going on. It’s just a bad case of WP:NOCLUE and they are, in good faith, really trying to get the hang of Misplaced Pages. They’re struggling to and now seem to understand they’re struggling to. Although I supported a TBAN above I think what they need instead is a mentor. Understanding of WP is not inherent and for some people isn’t obvious, intuitive or easily learnt. For some it is. But there’s something very dispiriting about seeing someone genuinely trying to understand WP in that way but being told (by me included) that, in effect, there’s no place for them here. DeCausa (talk) 16:11, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose for now, per Decausa and because editor appears to be a genuinely good-hearted person. They are not here to make trouble; they won't be edit-warring over religious views, like so many nationalistic SPA editors would. There is a real chance that their worldview is ultimately incompatible with the wikipedian community and all I am supporting is kicking the can while giving them more WP:Rope and adding work to other editors but at least others won't be demeaned, insulted or threatened as a consequence of letting him remain an unrestricted editor for now. Slywriter (talk) 18:09, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

  Sigh. Hope everyone has a great day today. Slywriter (talk) 12:23, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support: while it is indeed very important for editors not to bite newcomers and to assume no clue, it seems to me that the editors who have been dealing with this new user have done this rather admirably in most cases. The problem is much more that the user has been somewhat of a slow learner. While it is also true that they appear to be acting in good faith and show genuine signs of wanting to understand, competence is required, and a lack of this can be equally disruptive. Administrative sanctions on Misplaced Pages are not punitive, and I think that it may be helpful if the user would edit on other topics for a while, just to get the hang of it. A core problem has been that the user is very knowledgeable, but strictly from the point of view of original, mostly non-secular research. If they would be willing to try their hand on subjects which fall outside of the scope of this research, they may have an easier time getting used to the strict source requirements, and to the secular academic perspective of Misplaced Pages. A mentor, if such is possible, may also be enormously helpful. Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 23:31, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
• Strong oppose such punitive sanctions. Two main reasons. First, many of the diffs are just not as damning as people make them out to be, and if folks paused for a few seconds to think about this from the perspective of a newcomer used to collaboration in different environments they might be able to see the diffs in a more favourable light. For example: Zoom is of course not how we do things around here, as established editors will know, but this editor's rationale for why verbal/face-to-face communication may help in dispute resolution is not wrong. For a new editor who isn't aware of how WP does communication, or is unfamiliar with the community's desires for transparency and onwiki discussion (along with the fact that many Wikipedians don't like to communicate outside of text mediums), the proposition seems far more reasonable to make. The ownership/OR concerns are more pertinent, but not only are they relatively low in frequency but it appears the editor is understanding the now clearly raised concerns around that, and for a newbie not familiar with our cultural norms (such as WP:OWN) such an error is slightly more tolerable. (And ironically, I've seen even admins exhibit very similar OWN conduct before and get off without even a warning. Why are experienced editors who are expected to know better held to lower standards, and newer editors who are trying to learn proposed for sanctions?) Some editors have switched to support presumably because the editor contested a PROD? (a PROD which is now also contested by an admin). Have editors forgotten that policy does not require edits to provide a rationale to remove a PROD? Besides, the editor didn't just remove the tag without further comment (which would be all policy requires), they left a comment saying pretty much that 'this is discussed in lots of sources. I don't have sufficient expertise on this complex subject to contribute fully, but I believe it's notable and I'm happy to give pointers to sources'. That conduct is entirely proper. It's irrelevant whether the argument is true or not; take it to AfD, as you would if any established editor challenged the PROD. Not a valid basis to criticise an editor. Second, the editor has shown introspection and is improving. That's not to say there are no problems here, but there is no evidence that self-correction has proven to be impossible and that non-voluntary community intervention (via sanctions) has become necessary. But intent matters, as do assurances, and this entire section is rather saddening. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 01:38, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't think that anyone switched to support because of a contested PROD. You may have missed the fact that the sources the editor pointed to after explicitly being asked for scholarly secondary sources are all religious primary sources (Tanya and other 18th/19th century Hasidic texts, as well as late medieval and early modern Kabbalistic sources). The fact that this happened after having been explained about WP:NOR numerous times and after the whole thread above (including the topic ban proposal) tends to confirm the tone deafness. I concur that they seem to have good intentions, which indeed renders all of this rather dispiriting, but I for my part believe that we should be much firmer in making sure that content policy is understood and respected. Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 02:44, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

At least one comment adjusted their vote explicitly citing that talk page. Again, no editor is required to provide sources to contest a PROD. That's policy. The talk page diff you link isn't a violation of the original research policy. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 03:36, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, and that updated comment explicitly cites the lack of understanding with regard to sourcing. Though I see only now that I should have removed the PROD myself given the objection (I too am only ~5 months here), the PROD really is irrelevant: we both agreed that the article needed sourcing, and we were having an open dialogue about that (it would help if you would try not to see it as a battle of any kind, since we didn't either). Showing a lack of understanding on a talk page is indeed not a violation of anything, but it of course accompanies and supports edits in mainspace that are violations (e.g., citing the Tanya mentioned above as a source for an evaluative statement about the subject matter of that source). This combination of (mostly) friendly and open dialogue on the talk page with blatant OR edits in mainspace has also been going on for nearly two months now at Messiah in Judaism, and I guess that for some the interaction at Talk:Olam katan (as well as the minor incident in the collapsed thread below) was the last drop in the bucket. Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 06:02, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

@ProcrastinatingReader: I switched to support, but it’s nothing to do with contesting a PROD. I had switched to oppose earlier because he appeared to show recognition of what he needed to do to stay on WP, and was willing to assume WP:NOCLUE. I switched back to support because he:

• Added this to this thread in response to the PROD; and
• What he did at Talk:Olam katan and Olam katan showed that his claims of changing his ways had no follow-through.

Final straws. There’s a history there. DeCausa (talk) 08:11, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

The PROD along with the editor's subsequent request to stop the PROD with a section titled "Keep this article temporarily" backdrops and defines the entirety of the editor's involvement on that article. It's appears to me that they were just trying to stop a deletion, claiming the topic is notable and that more sources exist. Maybe one could argue these remarks are attempts to introduce OR if there were a concrete proposal to add specific content. But they weren't even proposing a specific content change here, just trying to stop the deletion with claims of existence of sources. I mean the gist of the comments is summarised thus:

• Am first working on gathering sources, then adding info.
• Only have knowledge of this concept in regards to ... I do not possess the time to wade through and understand ... texts on this ... subject. I will only be able to contribute partially ... If you are an expert, and are willing to go through some texts, I can give you some pointers if you are going in the right direction.

Exactly what policy are you saying this is violating? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 09:27, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

He has a history of mis-using primary sources for OR. And that’s what he’s referring to on the talk page and did on his edit to the article. But that’s not the main point. The main point is what he added to this thread and which I already linked to. Any WP:NOCLUE sympathy I previously had was squashed by that section he added. His edits at Olam katan are just the icing on that particular cake. You may have missed that I made in this thread the same points you made (and linked to the same diffs) about “introspection and improving” before he proved me wrong. DeCausa (talk) 09:40, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I didn't bother mention the sub-section below because it's even less concerning to me (and if that's the main point then this case really is built on a house of cards. Not only because great latitude tends to be given (at least to experienced editors) in relation to doing strange stuff during conduct-related discussions, presumably under the premise that people have worse judgement when stressed, worried, or overly excited. Overall I think this is an issue blown wildly out of proportion and many of the diffs just don't portray the story some believe they do. Others can evaluate the comments and come to their own conclusions. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:10, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Fair enough; that’s your opinion which I obviously don’t agree with. I only responded to you because you seemed to be under the misunderstanding that anyone changed to Support/strong Support because he objected to the PROD. There’s no indication of that. I think his history primarily at Messiah in Judaism and talk is what’s driven inputs to this thread, not Olam katan. DeCausa (talk) 10:23, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

*Support topic ban: Reading this thread has been one of the more incredible experiences of my years perusing and contributing to AN/I. This editor appears to misunderstand how Misplaced Pages functions at a baseline, from the way they rolled back the page when they checked back into the office after the break, to saying that others can be penciled in for Zoom calls. Everything that can be said about content will be said on this site and anything off-site should never have an impact on content. I would have opposed a topic ban, as they are still learning, but that stunningly disrespectful letter down below was something else. I support a temporary topic ban, as they hopefully learn how things are done around here. DÅRTHBØTTØ _(T•C) 04:58, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Also, opting to declare a bunch of other AN/I cases closed while your own spirals downward is a poor idea. DÅRTHBØTTØ _(T•C) 09:45, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Site block: Their persistent attempts to close all the other AN/I threads, on the basis of this board being full of "prosecutors" demonstrates a fundamental misalignment of priorities. DÅRTHBØTTØ _(T•C) 17:06, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• I don’t know what to make of Yaakov Wa.’s spree a few hours ago of trying to close down a number of other AN/I threads. Disruptive? Maybe. Bizarre? Definitely. this, this, this, this, and this. DeCausa (talk) 09:59, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

If these were only slightly disruptive, this request not to comment is crossing the line. Perhaps they are just testing the limits because they desire this discussion to be closed (and I certainly agree that it is taking too long), but some kind of response is needed. Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 16:50, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• Can someone reopen the discussion he just closed? versacespaceleave a message! 11:15, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Strong support topic ban as they are simply a drain on our time and energies (the two most important resources, etc); I'm somewhat surprised there has been no proposal to simply indef on grounds of competence. If there is, then you may consider me a strong support for that option also. ——Serial 12:49, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Dear all,

WP:CIRNOT,

Blessings,

Yaakov W.Yaakov Wa. (talk) 15:28, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

@Yaakov Wa.: Instead of demanding closure of other threads at AN/I (you’ve just done it again - I think it’s the 5th or 6th one in the last 18 hours) why don’t you focus on what you need to do in response to the feedback you’ve been getting consistently over the last 2 months. Two editors have just reverted you at Messiah in Judaism yet again for misuse of sources/poor sourcing. Take on board what they’re telling in you instead of ignoring it (or worse you seem to be reverting now). These calls for threads to close look like displacement activity. DeCausa (talk) 16:34, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Proposal to close (Warning for Apaugasma (OWN violation))

Proposal to close

This has gone on long enough, with subsequent behavior that appears to be trolling, or further proof that this editor does not have the competence required to edit collaboratively. I was initially in favor of a topic ban, but further conduct moves me toward a block if not ban. Can an uninvolved admin weigh in and assess the consensus before this closes with no action? StarM 17:23, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support site ban User’s contribs show he’s moved on to disruption. DeCausa (talk) 17:27, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support full site ban After reading through the above, I do not see how this member could ever be a collaborative contributor without becoming a complete time sink for anyone else they run into, Heiro 17:48, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support site ban per WP:NOTHERE. Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ _Talk 17:49, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Tentative support I think that a block is warranted given the disruption at ANI, but am not sure indefinite is appropriate at this time. _signed, Rosguill 17:53, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Courtesy @ProcrastinatingReader: as the primary oppose to be sure PR has seen the latest in the form of the diffs from DarthBotto . StarM 17:55, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
  • As it's difficult to gauge intent, it's a thin line between 'there's an AGF interpretation to all this' and CIR. I think the AGF interpretation and extended olive branch was reasonable. But after the latest diffs it's hard to justify them, or the apparent 'pattern'. So sanctions seem likely. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:10, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support site ban: what this user needs is a Chabad-wiki, where their contributions would no doubt be very productive. Their whole method, i.e., OR based strictly on (what are from the perspective of WP) undue and unreliable Chabad-sources, would be perfectly valid on such a wiki (and create interesting and valuable content), but it is fundamentally incompatible with WP. I believe that the frustration engendered by this incompatibility is what causes the disruptive behavior. Despite their seemingly good intentions (I do not just AGF, I actually believe there is no bad faith here), there is no sign whatsoever that they are even beginning to understand the origin of the frictions, and allowing them to stay would be nothing but a drain on everyone's resources (including, perhaps in the first place, on their own). Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 18:59, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Per me above. ——Serial 13:11, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Support site ban. sigh. User has moved to disruption, and does not seem to be here to build the encyclopedia. They've got a pretty big misalignment of priorities between themself and that of the majority of enwiki contributors. —moonythedwarf (Braden N.) 14:56, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support site ban User seems to be obviously WP:NOTHERE at this point. Jackattack1597 (talk) 22:36, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

User:Huasteca

Huasteca (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) This user has been editing since the first of this year, and in that time has found their way over to COVID related articles with which they have a problem accepting WP:MEDRS and WP:DUE, as well as their continued attempts to either overstate what sources say, or make new information from combinations altogether. Their first talkpage post (here) was filled with accusations of propaganda, and they flat out lied about the sourcing in the article. They later venture into personal attacks territory, and continues even now to refuse to understand that consensus is against them.

To this user's credit, they did attempt to discuss this on a noticeboard instead of continuing to edit war... but after that discussion resulted in no support for their views/goals, they went right back to making large changes to attempt to push the negative information to the forefront. The user then today again provided two sources not compliant with MEDRS and attempted to synthesize information from them that wasn't really present in the original EMA announcement - which they conveniently ignored because if anyone here would like to read that announcement, it does not say that it is confirmed, it says it's still a "possible link" and being listed as a side effect - which is not the same as saying "we have confirmed a causal relationship with the vaccine" - yet Huasteca wants us to say that, and the user wants the information about the blood clots to be plastered front and center for people, when at most one or two sentences would be merited, just as for any other side effect.

All in all, I am unsure whether this user has some motive for this other than building an encyclopedia, but it is clear to me now that allowing this user to continue to edit in the COVID-19 vaccine topic area would be a time sink for other editors, and it is producing virtually no good discussion. As such, I'd like to start this discussion on perhaps applying the COVID-19 general sanctions to apply a topic ban on COVID-19 vaccinations. Regards -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 21:09, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

• Update, this response to an uninvolved editor trying to explain things has personal attacks, aspersions, and is overall unhelpful. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 21:24, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't even know how to respond. It seems User is deeply disturbed by the EMA's announcement today finding a link between Astrazeneca and cerebral thrombosis and continued suspensions of Astrazeneca vaccinations. He has been aggressively pushing the view, not only that there is no link between Astrazeneca and cerebral thrombosis but that no one has even hypothesized this link. Hard to believe but true. This is his position - he literally refuses to acknowledge the content of reliable sources. . He even refuses to accept that numerous countries have suspended AZ vaccinations - with arguments on the line of "they were just temporary pauses". Funny thing is that I haven't even really engaged in an edit war with this editor - I just took this entire scenario to the relevant noticeboard where he promptly requested I was topic-banned. Perhaps this is the second of the Five stages of grief now that his position is even more untenable than before? God knows. He knows I have disengaged from the topic so I assume it is the product of a mixture of vindictiveness and frustration. Should not be wasting people's time here, though, including mine! Huasteca (talk) 22:00, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

The EMA did not find a link, they found a "possible link", and you would know that if you clicked the link in my original post. I have not pushed any view one way or another - I have fought against presenting a viewpoint as "certain" based on non MEDRS and sources that don't say what you're trying to say, as we are not a crystal ball and it's better to wait than get it wrong in the meantime. This editor has not disengaged from the topic, or if they have done so, it has only come after this noticeboard filing. I'll note that this user has continued making aspersions and personal attacks even here - showing that they cannot edit in this topic area without personalizing things, and I remain convinced that a topic ban from COVID-19 vaccines would be beneficial to the project. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 22:07, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Since I was mentioned here, involved with the edits of the page in question, and asked for my opinion by an editor on my talk page, I will give my 2 cents. The issues raised by Huasteca are not entirely without merit, however, the objectionable material here is in how he chose to go about attempting to edit. While editing, he used primarily sources that did not meet the WP:MEDRS standard, and as such his edits were generally reverted. I attempted to explain that this was common, and that even I had had recent edits reverted on similar grounds recently, though I thought them to be passable for several reasons, and that trough discussion with the community we had come to a consensus. Moreover, there were some considerable WP:DUE issues with his writing, with unconfirmed reports being presented front and center, without clarification, in the lede. Some of these edits also left out important information from within his own sources, that was important for a reader to understand the entire situation. The primary issue, however, comes with his reaction to criticism. He has frequently accused other editors of colluding or conspiring to "push POV", and yet takes even very mild criticism levelled strictly against his work (as opposed to him as a person) as a personal attack, lauding phrases such as "a very serious personal attack" and "a torrent of abuse", when not a single insult or threat had been thrown his way, merely constructive criticism over his edits. His assumption that the AstraZeneca vaccine casual link to the few dozen blood clot cases would eventually be confirmed appears to now be proven correct by the EMA, but the issue is not really about that. We don't attempt to predict the future, and accusations of conspiracy, abuse and "British Propaganda" (his words, not mine) quickly derail the discussion instead of moving it forward. In addition, he appears to dismiss the MEDRS standard as some kind of excuse that other editors are using against him, rather than a standard that we should all hold each other by, especially on a topic as important as this. He repeatedly accused other editors of POV pushing, when he quite clearly held and promoted a POV himself. Ultimately, the inclusion of a lot of his content would not even have been a problem, especially now with the EMA's new statement, but the violation of WP:MEDRS, WP:CRYSTAL and WP:DUE were the primary reasons for the conflict. His decision to immediately take offence, rather than to attempt to discuss the mater impartially prevented the establishment of a stable consensus. Still, it is worth noting that he has expressed support for other vaccines, most notably Pfizer's, and does not appear to maintain a more broad anti-vaccination attitude and has, at least at times, appeared responsive to complaints (even if not in the most constructive way possible). Why this user is such a staunch opponent of this vaccine I do not know, but it wouldn't have been an issue if the discussion he had with us was more focused on facts and edits, and not on taking offense and accusations. I wish him all the best, but find this type of behaviour quite unhelpful. Best regards, Goodposts (talk) 22:26, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

• Pure WP:BATTLEGROUND from Huasteca. They seem to be living out a fantasy in which they are a lone hero fighting against evil pharma shills. Unfortunately this means mischaracterizing what sources say (so: "There is no longer any doubt on the causal link between Astrazeneca and the clots") and concocting a bizarre story about what other editors are saying (so: "You guys can write AZ is magic and cures Aids and it won't have an impact on public perception"). Probably some WP:ROPE is left to play out, but in a fraught medical topic subject to GS, these kinds of antics are the last thing the Project needs. Alexbrn (talk) 05:33, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

  Alexbrn Guys, could you please just leave me alone? You have been proven wrong, yes I know its annoying but its what happens when you take WP:FRINGE views. Other editors are dealing with the article and I'm not involved anymore. Harassing me here is not going to change anything. Stop wasting people's times with your personal attacks, I'm not going to react in kind. Huasteca (talk) 10:32, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Huasteca. There are no personal attacks by Alexbrn. Given your message here I would ask if English isn't your first language as that would explain some of the problems you are having. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 12:03, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

CambridgeBayWeather There have indeed been a number of pretty nasty and uncalled for personal attacks by this user against me, as well as by other members of this odd cabal. If you want the diffs here, I will provide. And yes, you are correct, English is not my first language. It's my third language. But I'm still pretty certain I speak and write it better than you do. Thanks for your valuable input to this conversation. Huasteca (talk) 13:07, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes I would like some diffs and I so far all I see is you making personal attacks. Calling others an "odd cabal" is an attack. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 16:30, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

CambridgeBayWeather This is a personal attack, for example. Saying that me raising concerns about the neutrality of an article is due to "malice or incompetence" is a completely uncalled for personal attack. I also consider you completely randomly questioning my ability to communicate effectively in English because I happen to speak other languages a personal attack. The Trump era is over. I'm not wasting more time on this, I'm sorry. Have a nice day. Huasteca (talk) 23:25, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Huasteca Yes that was a unnecessary attack by Alexbrn. However, that does not make it OK for you to make them as well. By the way asking if English is your first language is not a personal attack. Just a question. Not sure why you would bring up some foreign former president. Trump never had a "era" up here. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 23:39, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

CambridgeBayWeather It's fine. Sorry for taking it the wrong way then. These guys make me moody and defensive. Regards. Huasteca (talk) 23:44, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

This user seems to have avoided this discussion by claiming they would be leaving this topic area alone, but they've yet again removed referenced text in this edit with an edit summary that's a borderline personal attack, and misleading. I stand by requesting that this user be topic banned from COVID-19 vaccines as they are unable to contribute in this area without becoming overly dramatic, making personal attacks, and slow edit warring to get their preferred outcomes in articles. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 02:35, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

It's sad that he now appears to have been completely insincere in his reasoning up to this point. This to me disproves the presumed good faith hypothesis and is reason enough for me to concur with you request. This is malicious behaviour and actively detrimental to the goals of building an open and neutral encyclopaedia. Goodposts (talk) 13:19, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Given that the behavior has continued, I would propose a partial block from COVID-19 articles. They can propose changes on the Talk pages, or go edit somewhere else for a while. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:36, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

HandThatFeeds, I would be okay with this except for the fact that just as much, if not more, disruption has been caused by their derailing of discussions on talkpages for vaccines at least. I also think that they may just need a break from the vaccines and they may be able to contribute meaningfully on general COVID articles (ex: about the virus, pandemic, etc). -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 20:33, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Proposal: Topic Ban from COVID-19 vaccines

• Support Topic Ban from COVID-19 vaccines Huasteca is a massive timewaster who is attempting to push contentious and unverified medical information against Misplaced Pages guidelines, with persistent IDHT problem. The sooner they get the boot the better. Hemiauchenia (talk) 06:31, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Support Topic Ban from COVID-19 vaccines per Hemiauchenia. h 13:30, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Support Topic Ban from COVID-19 vaccines: Given the following scummering of Gs/alerts:topic=covid as "sillyness" and then obviously continuing to engage in battles per comments above. In mitigation per someone above has had a couple of points worthy of inclusion; and may have reduced problematic edits since soming to ANI.and may have been riled from some stuff albeit AGF initially unintentionally. In some ways I'd like to conside allowing talk page edit requests for Huasteca but on risk/benefit considerations and the difficultly of making acceptable edit requests its likely better all round that it also include talk pages. Thankyou.Djm-leighpark (talk) 22:14, 12 April 2021 (UTC) I've struck my support for 2 reasons. The first inaction of admins seem to appear that the regard "general sanctions" to be meaningless. The second is that @Berchanhimez's "And this user" immediately after this post can be taken as a dig at myself .... unless one actually goes into the links to see that "This user" probably refers to Huasteca. An admin should probably therefore close this an no action. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 21:03, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

And this user Huasteca has continued to cast aspersions and make personal attacks all while continuing to edit the article and its talk page after multiple times claiming they "weren't involved" or they "haven't looked" in days. This disruption is preventing article work because those of us who are actually trying to improve the article are, from all sides, having to waste time on what now appears to be intentional "fudging" of sources and trying to make the most POV text possible that can be supported by a source. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 17:30, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

User:Djm-leighpark - I was attempting to reply to my own comment above - but the replylink tool when I clicked it after my name put it down here for some reason. You can verify that in the fact that the edit summary says "replying to Berchanhimez (using reply-link)" and not your name. For complete clarity, "This user" in the above statement refers only to Huasteca. I'll note that Huasteca (I won't use "this user" again for clarity) has now admitted to refusing to assume good faith and has attempted to justify their continued actions because they took it to NPOV/N - where they were pretty clearly in a minority viewpoint on their desired edits at the time, so I'm not sure how that could justify their continuing this at all. I agree that administrators are too scared to touch this area - unfortunately, some people decided to witch-hunt the only administrator who was actually keeping a lid on COVID disruption off of the project, and obviously nobody else has stepped in and become willing to touch it. I don't think that lack of action yet, when only one administrator has even commented and that was early on to try and get Huasteca to step back/improve, means that it should not be actioned - especially as, I've been showing here, disruption has been continuing. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 21:46, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Support Topic Ban from COVID-19 vaccines per my arguments above. Goodposts (talk) 22:19, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I still believe this needs at a minimum an uninvolved administrator to review and consider the arguments here and close this before it is automatically archived. This is the second time I've had to comment to prevent archiving of this thread without more than one administrator commenting (and even that administrator has not returned since attempting to defuse the situation above, which I appreciate but did not work as evidenced by continued (slow) disruption). -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 04:04, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban. The provided evidence is weak. The supposed offence of using MEDRS-incompatible sources was in a talk page post that discussed EMA and MHRA announcements, via two mainstream news stories - other users agreed EMA and MHRA are usable and the EMA announcement is now used. The "borderline personal attack" was "shenanigans". The "removal of referenced text" added wording to give a full quote rather than a truncation. That version is still live. However, Huasteca's discussion style is hyperbolic and they need to stop describing articles as "propaganda" and making references to North Korea, etc. Fences&Windows 13:59, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

  They were already told to stop doing such, but they just repeatedly say they're "stepping back" or otherwise "done" with the article, then they come back and continue the same behavior after this discussion dies down enough that they think they're safe. Note that a week ago an administrator here told them to stop doing such, but they are still being hyperbolic since being told that sort of thing is inappropriate - why do they deserve another warning when the first one did not work? -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 14:04, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

  Pragmatically possible problematic contributions in the topic area seem to me to have reduced in the 10 days since this ANI was raised, certainly compared to the period immediately before that. Under those circumstances the discussion is likely to peter out until closed or taken to archive by bot. If I am not mistaken Huasteca has not "owned" the disrespect shown in the comment used when removing the "General sanctions" notification from their talk page, and perhaps that is a bad precedent for the admins to ignore without at least a warning. I have a faint hope article maturation and WP:MEDSECTIONS of the affected articles might help lead to less issues ongoing ... however I am afraid there is a real risk of escalation and being back here or whatever after this ANI closes. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 08:29, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

  Berchanhimez, they're not obliged to stop editing the articles or talk pages - they've not been topic banned (yet). If we sanctioned Wikipedians for returning to an article they said they'd stopped editing we'd lose a lot of our frequent content creators. Topic bans need to be better supported than framing every comment or edit you disagree with as disruption. Djm-leighpark, the bad-tempered removal of a GS notice was unwise, but editors are allowed to remove such notices from their own talk page and display annoyance - we're not robots and it is still proof Huasteca is aware of the general sanctions on COVID-19 articles. Huasteca, if you continue characterising other editors as propagandists you will be sanctioned. They are not your opponents; they are your collaborators. Focus on content, not other contributors. There seems to be agreement on what kinds of sources can be used in the articles and wordsmithing hardly seems worthy of getting topic banned over. Fences&Windows 12:07, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I haven't logged into[REDACTED] for a couple of days and have just come across this. I'm literally a loss for words. That you, User:Berchanhimez are trying to get me topic banned because I publicly called you out manipulating an EMA statement to fit your narrative is borderline surreal. (See ). Berchanhimez, a more mature reaction would be to apologize for getting carried away in your zeal and promise to refrain from violating Misplaced Pages policies in the future. Trying to get me topic banned out of petty vindictiveness because things are not going your way on the article is also in itself a violation of Misplaced Pages which in merits some form of sanction in my view. Especially considering I'm not even that active on Misplaced Pages. Regardless, I have done nothing wrong and I will appeal the ban in the unlikely case that, due to canvassing or concerted action, this meritless accusation somehow leads to any sanctions being imposed on me. I trust[REDACTED] to be functional enough for this ridiculous case to go nowhere. Huasteca (talk) 23:21, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

User:Citation bot "fixing" non-deprecated parameters

Edits such as this fly in the face of stuff like Misplaced Pages:Village pump (proposals)#RFC: Citation Style 1 parameter naming convention and Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard#Closure_review_request_for_"Citation_Style_1_parameter_naming_convention"_RfC. Considering a similar task by Monkbot was suspended pending the outcome of that RfC, I strongly suggest someone do something about the bot until this non-consensus task can be deactivated. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 16:43, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

@Smith609: Your bot. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 16:45, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

He's abrogated responsibility for CB—he's edited once this year and his last 50 edits go back 13 months—someone else may have taken over the operation. Echoing @Kaldari and AManWithNoPlan:. ——Serial 17:03, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

The edit in question is not cosmetic. It removed |ref=harv, thereby removing a redundant parameter and a tracking category. The RFC close linked above specifically says any editor should feel free to manually or semi-automatically change unhyphenated parameters into their hyphenated forms while they're doing something else on a page. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:06, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

The close is clearly challenged so please don't do any action based on that until it is resolved. Removing ref=harv doesn't change anything display wise, and anyway that does not justify changing the hyphenated parameters. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:46, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Speaking as BAG here, it has long been held that if there is a non-cosmetic edit made to a page, there is zero issue with other cosmetic edits being made at the same time. The RFC does not overturn this precedent. It has also been held that tracking parameters (and thus the removal/fixing of them) is not considered cosmetic. Primefac (talk) 18:55, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

As a way to test the bot, I ran it on this version of Geotextile, which has the empty unknown parameter |coauthors= and instances of |accessdate=. The bot conservatively refused to make any changes to the article. RandomCanadian, if you find an actual bug in this bot's behavior, there is a place to report it at the bot's talk page. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:11, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

 Processing page 'Geotextile' — edit—history 
>Remedial work to prepare citations
   ~replaced with access-date (common mistakes list)
   ~replaced with access-date (common mistakes list)
   ~Renamed "last" -> "last1"
   ~Renamed "first" -> "first1"
   ~Unrecognised parameter accessdate 
   ~replaced with access-date (common mistakes list)
   ~Unrecognised parameter accessdate 
   ~replaced with access-date (common mistakes list)
>Consult APIs to expand templates
   >Checking that DOI 10.1088/1468-6996/16/3/034605 is operational... DOI ok.
 >Using pubmed API to retrieve publication details: 
   >Found match for pubmed identifier 27877792
 >Using Zotero translation server to retrieve details from URLs.
>Expand individual templates by API calls
 >Checking CrossRef database for doi. 
 >Searching PubMed...  nothing found.
 >Checking AdsAbs database no record retrieved.
 >Checking CrossRef database for doi. 
 >Searching PubMed...  no results. nothing found.
 >Checking AdsAbs database no record retrieved.
 >Checking CrossRef database for doi. 
 >Searching PubMed...  nothing found.
 >Checking AdsAbs database no record retrieved.
>Remedial work to clean up templates
>No changes required.

@Primefac: I may be mistaken here, but "accessdate" at the moment doesn't generate tracking parameters (you mean tracking categories?) and doesn't need fixing. "Cosmetic edits" are only allowed if they are considered genfixes, not whatever cosmetic edit one likes (e.g. changing whitespace in headers or in lists to your liking is not allowed in bot edits, even if you make other substantial edits at the same time). I wouldn't be allowed to change "access-date" to "accessdate" if I did an AWB run with something substantial in it (and rightly so), and there is no reason why the reverse would be acceptable either. So I don't see why you defend this edit, it doesn't seem to match the "allowed" parameters. Fram (talk) 11:16, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Bot continues doing this, even though it shouldn't according to its own documentation: both "accessdate" and "access-date" are in the CS1 whitelist; which should guide the bot. The Github list they use also doesn't seem to make this change. So why does it do this? No idea. If the bot owner isn't available, shutting down the bot until this is corrected may be wanted. Something like this is a purely cosmetic edit (removing one empty parameter plus converting lots of accessdates), which no bot should make. Fram (talk) 13:29, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

(non admin comment) I've had pointless changes of |accessdate= to |access-date= and similar turn up in my watchlist. It's a WP:TIMESINK to check them, even without spending time wondering "Why?" This is a WP:NOTBROKEN-like "fix". Narky Blert (talk) 16:20, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

The edits reported by Fram appear to have been caused in error by a recent code change that has been debugged. – Jonesey95 (talk) 01:52, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Citation bot is still making the replacement even though it isn't in the accepted list of replacements: . Fram (talk) 13:37, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

User:Neko-chan owns those edits, Fram. ——Serial 13:44, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

If you're implying I have some sort of control over what changes the bot does beyond my pointing it at a page or category, I don't. I also was unaware of the dispute over the hyphen until this ping just now --~ฅ(ↀωↀ=)neko-chan 14:12, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, the issue is CitationBot, not any individual editor using it. Citationbot needs to be changed or blocked. Fram (talk) 07:45, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

At this point it's just time to make a clear declaration that unilaterally removing these parameters is disruptive editing. We wouldn't allow someone to mass-change all instances of color to colour without consensus, and as a comparison WP:CITESTYLE says Editors should not attempt to change an article's established citation style merely on the grounds of personal preference, to make it match other articles, or without first seeking consensus for the change. Just like there are expectation not to change English variations or citation style just because you like it better, that should also apply to template parameters when both are optional. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a beautiful code contest. Widespread changes of non-deprecated parameters with no clear consensus to do that is disruptive editing and accomplishes nothing productive. Hog Farm _Talk 18:18, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Why is Citationbot still allowed to continue? Fram (talk) 08:27, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

To play devils advocate, there is a CS1 error about the hyphen, so someone somewhere agrees that this could be considered a "problem to be fixed": Category:CS1 maint: discouraged parameter --~ฅ(ↀωↀ=)neko-chan 15:28, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Gee I don't know which to be more surprised by: CS1 templates being coded to throw an error without consensus, bots running unauthorized tasks, or BAG defending it all. This happens every month or two, it seems. Levivich /_hound 16:05, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I guess if you're referring to Primefac, in fairness when he made that comment the RfC was either closed by MJL for option B, or unclosed (as the close was reverted). The comment about cosmetic changes being allowed when bundled with other changes is true. However, Joe has now closed the RfC, and the closing statement states Bot removal of non-hyphenated parameters from transclusions, i.e. Monkbot task 18, does not have community consensus. My reading of the close is that this includes bots bundling the change (non-hyphenated parameter -> hyphenated parameter), and that this is now disallowed? If that's a correct interpretation of Joe's close, then this functionality should probably be removed from Citation bot. WP:BOTISSUE is the relevant policy here, so in the first instance the maintainers should be contacted to adjust the functionality, seeking clarification from the closer if necessary to decide how the RfC's close applies to what the bot is doing. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 07:39, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Bot continues to make these edits even after an RFC closed with consensus that these edits should not be made by bots. Not the first time this particular bot has been coded to do things without or even against consensus (removing url parameter fiasco was less than a year ago), and when people complain, BAG takes no action. Levivich /_hound 19:04, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I have seen little evidence in the discussions that would imply that Citation Bot would be covered by this. CB's ability to process pages quickly is substantially less than that of MB, so the watchlist spamming is not even comparable. CB has internal checks that block most cosmetic edits, while MB was mostly (all?) cosmetic edits. The close specifically calls out only MB as the "Bot" under discussion. AManWithNoPlan (talk) 19:06, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

The close: "Bot removal of non-hyphenated parameters from transclusions, i.e. Monkbot task 18, does not have community consensus." But CB is still changing "accessdate" to "access-date" because AMWNP doesn't think that RFC applies to CB. I and some other editors disagree. Isn't it BAG's role to avoid and resolve these disputes? Levivich /_hound 19:12, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

All of that (AManWithNoPlan's edit) is beside the point. This is not about the close of any particular discussion, but about the fact that these parameters have never been deprecated, so nobody, human or bot, should ever have been going around changing them. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:21, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

So, it seems that |accessdate= is the one that causing the trouble? Am I reading this correctly? That seems to be the one that was deprecated years ago, then called into question, then re-deprecated, then called into question, and now is not deprecated but non-preferred. AManWithNoPlan (talk) 22:19, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Please point to the discussion where this was deprecated even once, let alone re-deprecated. It appears that we have template and bot editors who live in a parallel universe where things happened that didn't happen where the rest of us live. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:38, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Sudipto Surjo - template disruption, unilateral page moves and disregard for collaboration

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sudipto Surjo (talk · contribs) is an editor with a high edit rate, yet has been predominantly disruptive over the past several weeks. With a penchant for editing media franchise articles, Sudipto Surjo has moved hundreds of popular articles, without engaging in any prior (or post) discussion. That doesn't even address the out-of-scope addition of templates to incomprehensibly vague associations. I mean, who could forget John Wilkes Booth's stunning presence in National Treasure 2? Likewise, they have made irrational edits to templates, with the biography-oriented ones including acting credits and the media franchise ones including their creators/directors/stars in the headers - then, after they're reverted, he waits to change them back. This editor has been warned about their behavior to an egregious extent, with some cases of two or more final warnings listed by different editors in immediate sequence. However, Sudipto Surjo has opted to respond by deleting the warnings, acting coy - and even editing the warnings to make other editors appear unreasonable or foolish. I have linked up some specific incidents, but if you take a peek at their contributions, you will see literally several thousand of these uncollaborative edits, one after another, after another. Sudipto Surjo was previously blocked by Rosguill in October 2020 for this behavior, but appears to be regressing once more. There can only be so many dismissed final warnings before this needs to be firmly addressed. DÅRTHBØTTØ _(T•C) 08:09, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

There's no question that this conduct merits at least a temporary block. Deb (talk) 08:31, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

While I wait for some insight from the subject, I instead see some interesting edits being made to Seth Brundle, Template:Jeff Goldblum and The Fly (film series), before my very eyes. DÅRTHBØTTØ _(T•C) 08:45, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Blocked – for a period of one week. Multiple warnings either ignored or engaged disruptively (re-writing someone's comment with entirely new prose, even!). Likely competence issues that will need to be corrected. El_C 09:12, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

I also 95% certain that Sudipto Surjo is yet another sockpuppet of User:Aledownload. See Interaction Analyzer with one of the latest socks. I need to get round to either filing an SPI or just blocking for the clear quacking. Canterbury Tail talk 12:08, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

In my view, Interaction Analyzer data has to be super-obvious to be in any way helpful. But otherwise, a 95 percent certainty would be enough for me to indeff over. El_C 14:29, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

@El C: Their block expires on Sunday - should we keep this thread open, to see how they behave upon returning to the site? DÅRTHBØTTØ _(T•C) 09:49, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Since CT seems to be familiar with this, I'm inclined to let them take it from here. El_C 14:57, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah I don't think we need to keep this open. Canterbury Tail talk 14:59, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Rapid escalation

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Frank6292010 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Hi! I had reason to have a word with User:Frank6292010, who is using automated tools to undo non-vandal edits and leaving misleading edit summaries. His response has been to continue and leave me a {{uw-unsourced3}} warning threatening to have me blocked. It's all a bit odd. Can anybody tap him with a clue-stick? ◦ Trey Maturin 15:59, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I should note that these edits were not made with RedWarn (notice the absence of the "RedWarn" tag). Judging by their user page there have been a several issues with other edits since February. ✨ Ed talk! ✨ 16:05, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I had a helper before Mvcg66b3r, who help me edit when I joined and use RedWarn on TV station's and networks. Frank6292010 ((talk)) 16:07, April 12 2021 (UTC)

Frank6292010, are you referring to yourself or Mvcg66b3r (talk · contribs) using RedWarn? If you are referring to yourself, as far as I can tell, this isn't true. You have not used RedWarn ever on this account. ✨ Ed talk! ✨ 18:44, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

@Frank6292010: Do you consider Placeholder for future article (RW 16.1) as a helpful edit summary (especially when reverting someone's edit)? M.Bitton (talk) 16:28, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

What on earth is this user doing? They added another discussion to this thread. Padgriffin (talk) 16:40, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

This would be Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1063#User:Frank6292010 reported by User:Mvcg66b3r, Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1062#User:Frank6292010, and Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1056#Ownership problem at articles about TV stations again. The threat to call the police in the last ANI discussion has taken this beyond mere disruption. Uncle G (talk) 17:01, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

• I'm not sure whether they're trolling us or if this is a textbook WP:COMPETENCE issue. ◦ Trey Maturin 17:06, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
• I've just looked through Special:Contributions/Frank6292010. The article-space edits are the usual unsupported changing of facts and figures that weren't supported before, that one sees all too regularly in certain classes of articles from lots of people. But any project or user talk page edits go rapidly off the rails, as they just did to this very page. Uncle G (talk) 17:24, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
  • This user was here a week or to ago in a spat with the indeffed Theshavia29912 (talk · contribs) who has a couple of globally-blocked sockpuppets. While I don't think they're part of the sock farm, they're two sides of the same coin, and almost got indeffed at their previous ANI appearance. Acroterion (talk) 17:30, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
    • Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1063#Edit warring at As Told by Ginger appears to be two other people. Have you got two incidents confused, by any chance? Uncle G (talk) 17:38, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
      • Yes, I did, they were in a spat with Mvcg66b3r (talk · contribs) - similar subject areas, and the same sort of behavior. Unfortunately, they all tend to look the same after a while. Acroterion (talk) 17:41, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
• I have some sympathy with Neutralhomer in the January discussion, but it's difficult to see what can actually be done when all attempts to converse meander off into an incomprehensible series of actions. Uncle G (talk) 18:11, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

And it continues: another revert saying it was made with RedWarn when it wasn't, another nonsensical edit summary. ◦ Trey Maturin 17:37, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Oh, and they 'thanked' me for the edit that they then reverted. Are they just pressing all the random buttons all the time? ◦ Trey Maturin 17:38, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

User:Bruno Rene Vargas draftwarring

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Bruno Rene Vargas (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I've had previous issues with the editor, issues I felt we had put behind us. But today, I saw a draft I had made, Draft:TAR (film) was randomly moved to userspace by the editor and took the space for themselves. They cited "It seems unfair to me that someone like you who months ago reproached my way of creating drafts now does the same and does not suffer what I suffered at the time with Draft: Cocaine Bear. I proceed to send your draft to your personal workshop because I consider that my draft was created with a better format and information, just as you did with User:Bruno Rene Vargas/Cocaine Bear (film)". So this initially made me think I accidentally created a duplicate draft of one they had made, but this isn't the case. Bruno is essentially upset with me I had created content in that namespace before them. So I reverted this action, restoring my edits to the draftspace and telling them that they had not previously made a version of the page so their actions were unjust and taking credit away from myself for my edits. However, Bruno again moved my work to a new userspace location. They are at this point blatantly trying to discredit my work based off old beef I thought we had squashed. Rusted AutoParts 21:51, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

@Rusted AutoParts: Again, being honest with you is not the first time that it happens to me that I am creating an article and then when I go to publish it I find things like this, this or this. I would not care if it were not the fact that it was you who did it, but taking into account the fact that you reproach my actions but you continue to do the same thing that you criticize so much. In all the examples, including the two that you created today, the same thing happened to me, because after your claim I decided to create drafts that at least had a reference and specified that they are movies. The problem is that when I want to create them I find that you already created it in a lazy way and without even a reference, sometimes you even go to the extreme of creating redirects instead of drafts as such. Speaking of this particular article even though I hadn't created it before you, I was working on it and when I wanted to publish it I couldn't because you had created it again without any reference. This article was only the straw that broke the camel's back since for several weeks I have been putting up with your lazy way of creating drafts and that is why I proceeded to move your draft and make space for mine. It should be clarified that when you moved my draft it did not matter to you that I was the first to create the draft, you only gave importance to who created it with more information. Bruno Rene Vargas (talk) 21:58, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

That doesn't give you invitation to just shove my work out of the way. You just never understood my umbridge with you from the get go (being the time between making the page and then adding content), thus conflating our editing practices and now you've been chomping at the bit to get one back at me. This ain't it, and a total affront to cooperative editing. Rusted AutoParts 22:01, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

As for Cocaine Bear, it was because @Anthony Appleyard: had already explained why your requests to merge the two drafts couldn't be done. THe issue should've stopped there, but you were really desperate to be the one to make the page so you kept trying greasy tactics to seize it back. I moved yours to Userspace to put an end to it. That is not comparable to this scenario, where you're literally discrediting my work and hijacking the draftspace because I beat you to the punch. You did not have a duplicate TAR draft to make a case for yourself. That is not a valid excuse to make so many needless userspace articles just so you can be awarded credit. When you see the draft was already made, you edit and add to it, not shove it around. Rusted AutoParts 22:11, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

And why didn't you say that when Vistadan made this page movement instead of just adding it to my draft created many hours before? So if another user does it there is no problem but if I do it you consider it a "greasy practice". The only thing that can be seen is that there is quite a bit of hypocrisy on your part. Bruno Rene Vargas (talk) 22:20, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Because I saw an admin make a definitive decision about the situation. Whether I’m acting hypocritical or not is not relevant to the fact you stole a draftspace I created content in just off the basis you didn’t like I created it prior to you finishing your edit. There is no excuses for that conduct, and your persistence to do it after I reverted you shows it was just a means to spite me. Rusted AutoParts 22:26, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

@Facu-el Millo: Of course it is, in fact very often I do it, the problem is when a user like Rusted AutoParts creates drafts following the same method as the critic. Hopefully all this will serve as a lesson and that the next time he creates he will do it with at least one reference and not only with empty templates or redirects.

It doesn't seem to be because of the scarcity of information on the subject rather than "laziness" on RAP's part. Citing diffs such as these three (, . ) is also disingenuous, given that RAP almost immediately filled them to this, this, and this, in the span of no more than 10 minutes or so from that first edit. Granted, those are still quite bare-bone, but they're not as rudimentary as you tried to make it appear. —El Millo (talk) 23:07, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Plus, editing practices and past problems with one another aside, how is it justifiable for an editor to just cast away a draft to take the location? Bruno tends to take a situation and twist it to be about something else to avoid the topic at hand. Rusted AutoParts 23:21, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

That same question I asked myself when Vistadan did the same with my draft and whether you want to accept it or not, you were part of it without anyone ever calling you. Obviously, creation practices must be taken into account since they are the cause of all this conflict. If you had not created those articles without any reference, this conflict would not have arisen, so it is quite silly of you to say that I tend to twist the debates when I only bring up the causes of said action. Bruno Rene Vargas (talk) 23:28, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

You're literally doing that right now. The complaint is: you hijacked an already existing draftspace to prove a misguided point. You're now talking about "but Cocaine Bear". One doesn't need an invitation to provide input or intervene in a conflict. I found myself starting to check your edit history to double check if you'd already made an article or not so that I wouldn't create duplicates. I saw the dispute. That's it. Vistadan may or may not have edited inappropriately, but once the admin explained the scenario it should've stopped there. This should answer the quetions about that irrelevant situation, other than a poor comparison you're trying to make where my moving your draft due to a dispute is comparable to you moving my draft to make room for your draft that didn't exist yet. Please stick to the point. You were out of line shoving my edits out twice. Rusted AutoParts 23:44, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I wish to point out this is the exact behaviour I had warned of in their request for Page Mover status. Rusted AutoParts 11:50, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

This unnecessary intervention of yours adds to the long list of occasions in which you, without being even remotely involved, have appeared to give your opinion and even intervene with the sole purpose of harassing me. You reached a point where any conflict that I had with another user appeared and you took the opportunity to criticize me, that's why I had to warn you that if you did it one more time I would report you according to WP: IBAN, something in which that you are very familiar with. That is why a few minutes later when you realized that I had a better chance of winning that dispute and you were sanctioned again, you decided to give a truce, so that everything is on good terms. And so it was until again you started creating articles from redirects and things like that, being you who criticized my lazy way of creating articles, now you do it and worse because I at least put a reference when creating my drafts, you on many occasions directly only create redirects. Bruno Rene Vargas (talk) 13:27, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

You are being incredibly disingenuous about multiple things. I wanted the truce because I had clearly inflamed things to a needlessly hostile point. It wasn’t some opportunistic motion, it was “this doesn’t need to be such a bitter thing so I should cool it down”. And you’re still obsessing over the edit practice thing. Like Facu-el pointed out the drafts I made were fleshed out within minutes of its creation. I keep telling you what my issue with your practice was but at this point I think you’re just refusing to get my point. Either way, this still. does not. Address the core reason we are at ANI right now: you objectively moved my draft out of the way because you were upset I made it first. It is a very scummy move. Rusted AutoParts 14:11, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

More dirty is your move, request that I create the articles with more information (which I currently do) so that you have time to create it in a lazy way through a redirect or an empty template. And you always excuse yourself that you keep expanding it after a few minutes, which doesn't justify the lazy way you create them. I challenge you to find a single draft that I have created in the last two months that at least doesn't have a reference and I specified that it is a movie at the time of creation. Bruno Rene Vargas (talk) 14:29, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

”More dirty is your move, request that I create the articles with more information (which I currently do)” holy god I can’t even count how many times I’ve told you the issue was the time between creation and expansion on your end. I told you this on your damn talk page yesterday! I don’t know if the goal is to just frustrate and WP:FILIBUSTER a different point than the issue raised, but I’m going to keep reiterating it so it’s not forgotten through your constant whataboutism on incorrect points: you shoved someone else’s work out of the location so you could have it. It’s improper and considering you did it twice, disgustingly uncivil. I said prior it’s frustrating to run into edit conflicts trying to create pages before but I would never shove the editors work out of the way to be pointed. I’m disappointed you couldn’t offer me that same courtesy. Rusted AutoParts 15:03, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Your problem is that you take it very personal, that I know at no time have I overstepped you and you are already about to fall into insults by leaving comments like the previous one. In this link you confess that you intend to create a "rival article" every time you find a draft created by me, as if it were a competition. Again this reinforces my speech that you only came to harass me by bringing up problems that I had in another Misplaced Pages. Minutes later your next edit is this, where it clearly shows how you can't control your emotions and you go out and write unnecessary insults like this. Bruno Rene Vargas (talk) 15:45, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Holy god, more whataboutism. I literally told you shortly after that exchange that it was from frustration, and not a genuine retaliatory measure I would take. The Captain Marvel edit summary, which literally had no point here, was in regards to a frustratingly persistent edit vandal. The third one I was literally punished and blocked for. It’s ancient history that you’re using as an excuse to not address the point. You allege I take it personal when in the first exchange we had you immediately got intensely confrontational, pulling this same whataboutism tactic. Stop it and stick to the issue. Rusted AutoParts 15:51, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Both of you stop. This sniping back and forth is not helpful. Wait on other people to look into this and offer advice, remember WP:NPA is a rule. — The Hand That Feeds You: 20:42, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

It’s hard to see what all this is about, or why anyone should care. As El Millo asked earlier “just add what you did to the already-existent draft..Isn't it easier to do that rather than start fighting over something as petty as who first created a draft”. I couldn’t see an answer to that. Why does it matter who created the draft page? “An article created in draftspace does not belong to the editor who created it, and any other user may edit, publish, redirect, merge or seek deletion of any draft”. DeCausa (talk) 21:06, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

The issue is Bruno taking the already existing draft and moving it elsewhere so they could be attributed credit. It wouldn’t be so problematic to me if this wasn’t so clear the motive behind it. He did not create another version at an earlier time, it’s not filming, it’s not in violation of any draftspace rules. Bruno simply did it because they perceive me as hypocritical and wanted to make a swipe. If anything this shows the editor should not have page move privileges as they’re misusing them. Rusted AutoParts 21:15, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

So, @Bruno Rene Vargas:, without getting into why you did that, what’s stopping you saying you won’t do that again? DeCausa (talk) 21:29, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Well, you're right @DeCausa:, I promise not to do it anymore but please @Rusted AutoParts: stop creating drafts without any reference or redirecting them. And please also stop tracking my contributions because this is clearly a sign that you constantly look at my edit history or how do you explain the fact of editing minutes after me a draft that was more than 6 months abandoned? Bruno Rene Vargas (talk) 21:39, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Because I fail to understand why you wouldn’t just add content to the draft that already exists. Why do you need Parasite deleted when if you wish to contribute stuff you could just do exactly that? If you’re making requests, then I’m making it a deal, if I stop making my drafts like that, you will return my version of TAR back to where it was as there was legitimately no reason for it to be relocated. Rusted AutoParts 21:43, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

At least now you are acknowledging that the way you create them is not correct. But I am not going to give up a draft that I have worked on and expanded substantially. I have already lost a draft thanks to your intervention months ago so I will not allow him to do it again. For my part, I have already said that I will not do that type of movement again, and if you do not want to stop creating them the way you currently do, that is your problem, I do not come here to negotiate anything just to ask you to put in a little more effort when starting a draft. Bruno Rene Vargas (talk) 21:49, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

So my work should be lost just because you made retroactive edits to your version when it pointed out how small it was? I shouldn’t have to lose my version just because you feel wronged in a previous disagreement I have countless times explained to you why that was done. You can’t just them engage in tit for tat warfare, make demands then not meet middle ground. So then I have 0 incentive to do what you wish because you’re unwilling to revert your wrongdoing. I guess there’s no deal then. Rusted AutoParts 21:57, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Well, the only one who keeps talking about "deals" is you, I never negotiated anything with anyone, I simply said that I will not do this type of movement again. You prefer to continue creating drafts in a lazy way with the excuse that you do not want to lose this draft, it is paradoxical that you have repeated ad nauseam the fact that I am a person who always wants to be the first author and it is you who continues to prolong this thread where you can only see "a war of invalids" and whether you want to recognize it or not, both parties have been arguing over nonsense instead of investing that time in continuing to expand this great project. And let it be clear that unlike you if I wanted to collaborate with you many times leaving links to Variety Insight of drafts that you created but I suppose that none of that mattered to you. Bruno Rene Vargas (talk) 22:11, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I proposed a deal because you're asking me to do something I feel should be met with a compromise. And I absolutely made attempts at collaboration with you, I made additions toward the Draft:Untitled Steven Spielberg film. I didn't kick up a fuss about not getting to create it first, I helped flesh it out. You fundamentally wronged me here. It's not an argument over who is first, it's an argument over you literally throwing my already existing version out of the way for no reason outside of pure spite. I have spoken "ad nauseum" about this because you just refuse to get the point. THis was not about either of our edit practices, nor was it about Cocaine Bear, or an immature edit I made *9* years ago. You used page moving in a malicious way and expect me to agree to your request while not respecting mine. I want to put this to bed but you won't allow it because the only way I'm to be satisfied this is a dead issue for us is if your wrongdoing to me is undone. Rusted AutoParts 22:20, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I suggest the two of you put the past behind you and agree a compromise approach going forward. If you don’t, I’m guessing, there will be a loss patience with this bickering and imposition of some sort of editing restrictions/interaction ban that neither of you will like. DeCausa (talk) 22:04, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

The funny thing is, like I put up above I was under the impression this issue was put to rest. Rusted AutoParts 22:21, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Well, seeing as @Rusted AutoParts: no has intention of changing, I have no choice but to support the block proposal that @DeCausa: mentioned above, for my part I think that would be the best for both of us, an editorial block regarding the creation of drafts and that has a minimum duration of 6 months. I prefer that only two of us are harmed instead of continuing to waste time and patience with other users. Bruno Rene Vargas (talk) 22:33, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

You are being so disingenuous. You are claiming I have no intention of changing when I am literally trying to reach a compromise with you. Would you abide from a request made by someone who is actively wronging you and not willing to meet middle ground to resolve the problem? If anything the course of action is interaction ban if you're that dedicated to not reaching a compromise. Rusted AutoParts 22:37, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

How about addressing the comment? You reverted a good edit saying that it was made to spite you. —El Millo (talk) 22:35, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

@Facu-el Millo:, the truth is that your interventions here are quite unnecessary, or did Rusted AutoParts ask you to come and help him here, or are you his lawyer and I'm not aware of it? It seems quite unfair to me that a reversion of me seems absurd and you are not able to recognize that it is very obvious that Rusted AutoParts is continuously looking at my edit history. The problem is not that he add information, the problem is that he do it only 20 minutes after my edit when he had more than 6 months to extend the draft if that had been his intention. Bruno Rene Vargas (talk) 22:43, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

And here comes the WP:BADFAITH. I did not summon Facu, they responded on their own volition. This is ANI, this issue was brought here specifically for 3rd party input as just edit warring over the space is just pathetic and not something I wish or want to do. Is it not more likely I am seeing when you make responses here so I can respond? I saw you putting a perfectly alright draft up for deletion off the basis that a sock made it when I felt the draft could have just been given the updates you seem willing to submit. I am fairly certain you were told before not all of Starzoner's drafts need to be rubbished. Rusted AutoParts 22:50, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Well, if you remember it, it is due to the fact that again on that occasion you entered without anyone having called you, just one more sample of your constant vigilance towards my contributions and my talk page. Precisely because I saw that Starzoner was practically the only main author, I proposed its deletion and that is allowed, what is not allowed is to delete a draft in which several users have added enough information, which is what you did in order to avoid deletion and so annoy me. Bruno Rene Vargas (talk) 22:57, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

People do not need invitation or direct invovlement to get involved in an issuer or discussion. Also, My purpose in life is to not come in and give you hassle, so knock it off with the blatant incivility and paranoia. We're clearly not going to say anything to one another that breaks this cycle of bickering, so let's agree o

I'm admittedly surprised to see this kind of quarrel arise between two editors I respect. I know it is frustrating to work on establishing a draft, only for what could be perceived as a "low effort" alternative swoop in and take up its space first. However, we do not own any of the pages here and concerning ourselves over being the original creator can be disruptive - as it has become here. I suggest you both simply consider what is best for Misplaced Pages and abandon all precious thought over who creates what. Any shoddy draft can be edited and built upon, as I have looked to do, ironically with the latest example being Draft:Rothko (film), created by Bruno Rene Vargas. You guys know better. DÅRTHBØTTØ _(T•C) 07:31, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Bruno Rene Vargas, Rusted AutoParts I'll start by saying that I don't have the energy or motivation to read through the entire discussion above, or through all the many links that have been given. I think that the original complaint was that BRV moved a draft that RAP had written into RAP's userspace, so that they could create a draft at the same title; BRV's rationale is that it was a bare-bones draft, and their intention was to create a better one. Then you both got into something of a tit-for-tat about problems you've had in the past about working on drafts. If that's a fair assessment, here's my advice:

• Bruno Rene Vargas: moving a draft into someone else's userspace, so that you can create your own draft, and with an edit summary like the one you used, does seem quite WP:POINTY. There may sometimes be a justification for it, but I'd suggest that the first thing to do would be to talk to the other editor and see whether you can work on the draft together.
• Both of you: you both seem to be interested in working on upcoming films, where creation of a draft prior to the release of the film seems like a sensible approach. I would suggest that the first thing you do when you sit down to start a new draft should be to spend a bit of time looking to see whether someone has already started one. You can set the search tool to look only in draft space and user space, so it should be quite a straightforward task of putting in a couple of appropriate search terms to see whether any such draft exists. If you find that there's already one there, rather than create your own parallel draft, work on the existing one. If it is in userspace, you'd need to speak to the user first, but this is supposed to be a collaborative project - that shouldn't be an issue. Having two drafts on the go in parallel is a really bad idea - the work involved in performing a history merge is non-trivial, and should be avoided if at all possible.

Do you think there's any chance you would both be able to put this behind you, and try to do a better job of working collaboratively on a topic area that you both seem interested in? GirthSummit _(blether) 11:32, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I’ll make a slight correction that Bruno’s intention was more retribution for a previous interaction as opposed to wanting to make the page better but at this point I find this inane back and forth draining. It’s apparent I’m not getting my version back so I’ll let this one go. I do want to work collaboratively, this is why I sought to nip this in the bud last month when I saw how inflamed the situation had gotten.

Bruno, all I ask this time is, again, never use your page moving abilities like that again. If you have problems with the drafts quality, have at it, flesh it out, make it better. Don’t make new userspace pages (I’ll get out ahead of potential “you did it first” by reiterating it was to end a conflict an admin already made a decision about). And I don’t see us needing an interaction ban if we agree here and now to stop going to one another’s talk pages to squabble about editing practices. I’ll make sure at the least when I start a draft there is a source in place before saving. Can we please finally bury this? Rusted AutoParts 12:43, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Well, as I had said before, I will no longer do that type of movement and I agree with your proposal @Rusted AutoParts:. Bruno Vargas _{Eñe'ẽ avec moi} 12:59, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Proposal to close (Better collaboration skills needed)

Dear all,

In regards to this situation, it appears that both Bruno and Rusted (Put names alphabetically) recognize the need for better collaboration. This is part of the human condition where sometimes we misunderstand each other and get upset. It happens, yet the best method (and sometimes there will be times where it is not upheld due to the fact of the human condition), is to think 30 seconds before publishing and edit when in a calm state of mind.

In addition to the suggestions noted by Girthsummit, a practical suggestion for not losing your work is using a personal sandbox and then transfer information from personal sandbox to the draft. This may help prevent edit conflicts like this.

Blessings,

Yaakov W. Yaakov Wa. (talk) 03:26, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

User not making constructive edits and has already been warned

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This user: https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:2600:1702:760:1680:FC8C:3771:9114:55B7 has been making some unconstructive edits to pages about animated tv series and has already been warned multiple times. Not sure if all their edits were unconstructive but I came here just to let you guys know and you guys can make the final decision. Blaze The Wolf | Proud Furry and Misplaced Pages Editor (talk) 13:32, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Blocked – for a period of 2 months. Third recent block for this range. El_C 15:24, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you! I just saw them while looking at recent changes and they said something about Lin-Manuel Miranda creating the theme song for The Magic School Bus while providing no sources. Blaze The Wolf | Proud Furry and Misplaced Pages Editor (talk) 15:27, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I would like to officially complain about the editor Guy Macon.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Talk:Motorola 68000
• User_talk:Guy_Macon#Hostile_admin_warning.
• User_talk:Vapourmile#Enough.
• User_talk:Vapourmile#WP:BRD

I would like to make a formal complaint about editor Guy Macon whose hostile actions I regard as /argumentum ad baculum/.

I had removed a large section of the talk page on the 68000 entry at a time when I was not aware it is contrary to Misplaced Pages guidelines. My reasons were that the section was long and unproductive.

After the full comments section was subsequently archived, Guy was the first to remark on the talk page, immediately rekindling the same unproductive argument.

After a short exchange, including making technical corrections some of Guy’s comments, he directed this threat at me:

"Vapourmile, I am close to my limit putting up with your behaviour. Knock it off and start treating other editors with respect and civility or there will be consequences. --Guy Macon"

I accept some of my response was cynical. This is explained by the fact I had been previously threatened with account restrictions for removing a section of the previous talk page only to find the entire page had been archived and replaced with only Guy’s comments on that same topic. That aside, the accusation of not treating others with civility appears to refer merely to the fact I returned to add technical annotations to his edit.

That same argument has since become the mainstay of the same talk page and have I simply stepped out of it days ago, or so I thought until this morning when new threats from Guy appeared on my talk page where after days of silence suddenly this new threat from Guy appeared:

"Given edits such as this: (reverted here) I would suggest a topic ban from computer architecture, broadly construed. I do not believe that Vapourmile is capable of editing collaboratively in this area, and that they should spend their time on topics where they do not have such strong emotions"

I contest that it definitely not I who is having difficulty keeping my emotions in check, as this new assault arrived some days after my most recent change to that page, and a new response has since appeared after my last change which I have simply ignored and allowed to carry on in my absence.

The comment I had made on which Guy has decided to offer an opinion this morning is seven months old, and on a different Misplaced Pages talk page to the one where the dispute arose, so I can only assume either Guy came to Misplaced Pages after days had passed simply to look through my edit history to pick out actions to complain about to try to get my account restricted, or Guy, as I expect, patrols Misplaced Pages pages for reasons of contest rather than information. I have been asked not to assume bad faith but it is a little bit difficult to see it any other way when somebody actively corrals attention and works to try to have my account suspended for simply correcting them on what is an encyclopaedia talk page.

With this in mind, from my point of view, it certainly does not appear to me that I am the one having difficulty controlling my feelings, it seems today he has taken it upon himself to literally try to hunt me down. I would ask Guy to try to approach disagreements wearing a cooler head and especially ask him to tread far more carefully on those technological entities in which his personal pride is clearly invested. Please ask Guy Macon to desist in his persistent uninvited unnecessary hostility. Vapourmile (talk) 16:36, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

This is a lot of text without a discernable point. Can you please summarize what exactly the issue is and provide diffs? TAXIDICAE💰 16:42, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

• Sigh. boomerang (verb); (of a plan or action) recoil on the originator. i.e. "misleading consumers about quality will eventually boomerang on a car-maker" Black Kite (talk) 16:43, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Given I woke up this morning to yet another personal threat from Guy, it is a little bit of a stretch of the imagination to think this comment appears to be directed at me. He has been the libel engine so far, and is not until now that I have replied to it. Vapourmile (talk) 17:13, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

But thanks for using the phrase "Argumentum ad baculum," which looks so much more polite and eloquent than the Anglo-Saxon alternatives. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:46, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

"Argumentum ad baculum" is the correct choice of term for what is occurring. I am being threatened for not accepting other editors' inaccurate comments ipse dixit. Vapourmile (talk)

• And this . Bishonen is not a troll, she is the alter ego of a kaiju. Please keep this straight. Acroterion (talk) 16:55, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I did not call them a troll. I referred to the comment they made, not the person, the churlish accusation I was confusing a Misplaced Pages editor for the French president. The distinction is important: My response was directed at the comment made and not the person who made it. Vapourmile (talk) 17:10, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

The comment was, I believe, made because you kept referring to Guy Macon as Guy Macron. So wasn't a trolling comment, but a rather polite hint that you're getting another editor's name wrong. Canterbury Tail talk 17:19, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I accept that was what they meant, my point is, they could have simply said that. I have since altered the spelling to ensure it is correct. Vapourmile (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 17:26, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps a less grumpy approach is needed, so you don't have to resort to such rhetorical hair-splitting? Acroterion (talk) 17:21, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

• • Yet you're happy to call her "churlish." Please respect the law of holes. Acroterion (talk) 17:12, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I did not call *her* churlish. I referred to the comment, not the person. The comment I am confusing a Misplaced Pages editor with the French president IS churlish.

I would like to complain about Guy too. He isn't strong enough on telling it straight, he is far too polite, and he knows far too well how[REDACTED] works. Please do something, Admins. Thanks. -Roxy the sycamore. wooF 17:17, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

For what exactly? For defending myself? Vapourmile (talk) 17:20, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Are you addressing me? I was complaining abou Guy. -Roxy the sycamore. wooF 17:22, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

• Point of order - Vapourmile, you are required to alert Guy Macon about this report using {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~, as the instructions say on this page when you edit it. Please do so now. EvergreenFir (talk) 17:27, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I am happy to do that but did not do so immediately so as to honour Guy's request he made, adding to my talk page this morning a request not to add to his talk page. The requests are in contradiction so can't possibly do both. I hope that is understood. I will however make the addition to his page at your request and in accordance with guidelines. Vapourmile (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 17:33, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Since somebody else has notified Guy Macon, I have elected to honour his request not to add to his talk page and assume it will be sufficient for somebody else to have done the job. Vapourmile (talk) 17:39, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I thank whomever it was who added the illustrative links above. Since many of them lead to various threats which appear detached from any details of why I was their recipient I hereby ask for clarity on what rules I am alleged to have broken, accompanied by links or verbatim quotes, to the exact offending behaviour, thank you. Vapourmile (talk) 17:43, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Vapourmile Few things. First, you cannot demand people do all the leg work for you, when you yourself haven't bothered to provide a single diff of the behavior you object to. Second, please indent when responding and sign your comments. Last, please, for the love of all our sanity be more concise in responding to people. Pasting walls of text will only cause people to ignore you and quite frankly, it will just piss other editors off. TAXIDICAE💰 17:48, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I have not demanded anything. I have asked for something: There seems to be some eagerness in supplying links to the various threats made, as if with the tacit assumption that if I am to have received threats of bans, account restrictions, or otherwise, then I *must* deserve it. All I have done is request what anybody who is being held to accuont is entitled to, which is evidence. It is my contention that the various threats are unwarranted. Meanwhile I have indented and signed most of my comments. The editor who added teh links appears not to have signed those, why didn't you say something to them? My contention of most of this incoming flak is unwarranted. I am simply asking for an explanation. Since I have been threatened with account restrictions, I think that is reasonable, don't you? You and I may see this differently. I have merely corrected technical errors, and not even mostly on the pages themselves but merely in the talk sections, to which hostility quickly arose. I don't think the threats have anything behind them except vendetta. I haven't seen much reason to believe I have done anything to warrant these sorts of threats. I am simply asking for whatever I have allegedly done to be made visible where it can be examined. I see nothing unreasonable about that request as my complaint is that the attacks and threats they constitute are unwarranted. Vapourmile (talk) 18:00, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

You're asking editors to provide "verbatim" quotes from you but you yourself have not provided a single diff or a concise summary of what your complaint is. And to top it all off, you've now responded yet again with a wall of text and nothing of substance. I'd suggest you withdraw this because right now it's a massive time sink and it's disruptive. TAXIDICAE💰 18:02, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

You say that like it's labour intensive. I have been the one in receipt of the incoming threats which is why I am here, and so far nobody seems able to explain why, which is what I came here to ask for. A "verbatim" is nothing more than a ctrl+c / ctrl + v away. I'm just challenging the assumption that those threats I have received are attached to any wrongdoing I have done. I am not the one threatening people with account restrictions for editing Misplaced Pages pages without explanation. You claim my comments aren't helpful and yet all I can find in yours is "Nobody has to provide a reason for account restrictions. If somebody says you've broken rules then you have. Just take our word for it". YOU have been specific in this exchange and I thank you for it, but nobody has in any of the exchanges which brought me to this, and the explanation is what I came here to ask for. Vapourmile (talk) 18:14, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Vapourmile, Yes, finding diffs actually is somewhat labor intensive. So: follow WP:DIFF and please provide some links to the alleged problem edits. If you are unwilling to do so, I will be forced to close this thread for lack of evidence. The onus is on the reporter of an issue to show there is an issue, which must be supported with clearly linked evidence. CaptainEek ⚓ 18:29, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Well, the place I started contains two verbatim quotes, which I'd say was evidence, and a description of the turn of events. Some of which can be verified by the links supplied above, so I am somewhat suspicious of the accusation of "no evidence" given that it's actually there, especially given that there is also "no evidence" of my alleged previous wrongdoing and nobody seems to want to start placing burdens of proof on the people sending me account restriction threats demanding those threats are warranted, you yourself are excusing the people who have sent those threats, accusing me of being demanding, but then demanding /I/ provide evidence of the counter case. You have the evidence of the restrictions-threats made against me which I am saying are not warranted by wrongdoing on my part. I shall have a look later, but there already are quotes and links in this post so as yet you may also like to countenance your request for evidence from me with the fact nobody making threats against me has been able to state what the wrongdoing is. I obviously can't prove I *didn't* do something I've been accused of so it sounds like burden of proof shifting to me. Vapourmile (talk) 18:38, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

It appears that Vapourmile objects to this, this, viewing it as a threat. Vapourmile, to be clear, Guy Macon is merely suggesting a topic ban from that specific narrow topic, not an account ban. And generally speaking editors are allowed to make such suggestions (though if they're completely meritless they risk a WP:BOOMERANG); it's not automatically considered a threat. Given Vapourmile's pretty aggressive comments it appears to be at least a defensible suggestion (, basically similar to the ones in this thread.) Compounding the issue is that it appears that Vapourmile believes, or believed that, Guy Macon and @Guy Harris: are the same person; at a glance it looks like they reacted much more harshly to Guy Macon's initial comments than they would have otherwise because of that. --Aquillion (talk) 20:28, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Aquillion for a concise and DIFF filled summary of the matter. Vapourmile, this is the standard sort of summary at ANI. Short, well linked, and to the point.

On the merits, this is a nothing-burger. Who knew computer processors could inspire such passion. Vapourmile, you were fairly abrasive, and Guy (who is not an admin) suggested that if you kept up your attitude you might find yourself topic banned from computers. Not from all of Misplaced Pages. Just a very small portion of its 6 million articles. If you cannot edit without inflamed passion about a topic, you are probably best off not editing in that area. So: I suggest you re-evaluate your approach to the topic. I suggest you use formal dispute resolution or hold an WP:RFC to resolve the content issue if it is truly at an impasse. CaptainEek ⚓ 20:53, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

• I knew. — I mentioned this the last time this was on this noticeboard. People have been arguing about the "bitness" of these processors for 40 years. Uncle G (talk) 23:36, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

• I do wonder how someone can have 29 edits to ANI, and only 40 edits to mainspace. That's a remarkably low productivity ratio (even lower than most arbs). I would recommend focussing more on creating an encyclopedia, and less on creating drama. – bradv🍁 18:00, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

And after having been here for 13 years. Canterbury Tail talk 18:26, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

You think it's odd? Well from my very first response on the 68000 talk page I said myself just how odd it is that after 13 years of Misplaced Pages use and some page edits, suddenly I am receiving threats of account bans. How strange it is. Yet it seems like I still will not find an explanation here, even have asked for it directly through what I thought was the grievance process. You are not alone in finding it strange, I assure you. Vapourmile (talk) 18:45, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

You're right- with the way you have conducted yourself on this thread- I'm surprised it took 13 years for threats of account bans to be applied to you. I'm surprised it wasn't much much earlier. Seriously- listen to what you are being advised- either withdraw this, or make a concise, DIFF heavy list of what, exactly, Guy has done wrong. Cause right now-there is a boomerang heading straight for you kangaroo. Nightenbelle (talk) 20:03, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Funny how Vapourmile (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is suddenly able to spell my name...

Vapourmile appears to have a problem with the Commodore Amiga computer and the microprocessor (the Motorola 68000 series) it uses. Like many people who engage in wars over such things as Mac vs. PC, Windows VS Linux, Vim vs Emacs, Ford vs. Chevy, etc. Vapourmile's behavior is belligerant, insulting, and displays a WP:BATTLEFIELD mentality. some examples:

NOTE: I have never used an Amiga or any other 68000-based computer. My personal computers have been COSMAC ELF (1802) -> C128 (8502/Z80) -> Pentium -> ARM.

My recommendation: a topic ban from the Amiga computer and the 68000 series of microprocessors, a one-way interaction ban with Guy Harris, and a warning that further personal attacks and incivility will result in an indefinite block with the usual option of appealing after six months. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:11, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

So tell Vapourmile, still a newbie after 13 years that they are making newbie errors, including types noted above. Suggest a bunch of mellow editing in other articles to get started. Guy seemed a bit pointy for that situation, including that yes, that was a bit of a threat. Suggest mellowing out a bit.  :-) Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:21, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

With all due respect, when reviewing this editor's contribution, this rings quite hollow to me. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 21:30, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I do not consider removing other editors's comments, false accusations of sockpuppetry, filing bogus ANI reports, and writing "I AM *NOT* THE ONE DOING THIS FOR PERSONAL REASONS. I AM THE ONE DOING THIS TO GET THE TRUTH OUT." or "You additions to the talk section are boring, superfluous and irrelevant." to be newbie mistakes. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:45, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

• SupportThose behaviors are common / accepted in most on-line venues and terrible unusual behavior in Misplaced Pages. So, they are newbie errors. Explain that this smack is a part of their Misplaced Pages training process.North8000 (talk) 11:35, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support (at a minimum) Guy Macon's recommendation. Likely just kicking the can down the road a bit - but wp:rope and all that. — Ched (talk) 21:37, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support TBan at a minimum per Guy Macon Tommi1986 21:41, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
• begrudgingly support the tban, but would prefer an outright indef block as they don't really appear to be here to do much in the way of actual editing considering more than half of their total edits are to drama boards. TAXIDICAE💰 21:45, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
• @Guy Macon: For the sake of clarity, how old is your bedroom? I'm not a fan of newbuilds myself. nagualdesign 22:44, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
  • The above refers to Vapourmile's comment "This is an encyclopaedia, aiming for credibility, not your teenage bedroom." My bedroom was constructed in 1960, so it is 61 years old. My first computer (as in "I wrote programs that ran on it", not as in "I owned it") was a NCR Century 100. The first computer I designed part of the hardware for was the Perkin Elmer 8/32. The first computer I owned was a COSMAC ELF, which I upgraded to a COSMAC VIP. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:56, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Good to know. In that case I think we should forego the boomerang in favour of the waddy. nagualdesign 19:12, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support the three parts of Guy Macon's recommendation, per what Ched said. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:01, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

  Per Cullen just below me, I agree that the scope of the TBAN should be broad, computers and computing, rather than just some specific types. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:11, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support indefinite topic ban from computers and computing, broadly construed. I pity any poor editor named "Guy" unfortunate enough to run across Vapourmile. Cullen Let's discuss it 23:05, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support broad TB per Cullen above, or Amiga TB if that's what there is a consensus for. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:17, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support TB per nom. Padgriffin (talk) 05:17, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support TB per Cullen Bludgeoning, refusal to drop the stick, and what appears to be a false statement in the opening justification in this request for action against Guy Macon. After the full comments section was subsequently archived, Guy was the first to remark on the talk page, immediately rekindling the same unproductive argument. is false. Guy posted to the page at 16:32 and at 16:49 , the page was archived at 19:00 by user:HandThatFeeds , and the next content edits were two days later, by Vapourmile . Note that Vapourmile appeared to be aware that he was starting the discussion up again rather than replying to subsequent comment as Vapourmile started off with "Oh look, somehow the entire talk section has mysteriously disappeared and all that's left of it is this argument" Meters (talk) 20:13, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Call for snow close

I believe that WP:SNOW applies and that there is zero chance of further discussion changing the result. Could someone uninvolved please evaluate the consensus and close this? I really would like to unsubscribe again. Seeing a steady string of ANI cases on my watchlist tempts me to comment on them. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:43, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

User:Sarah.Xenos - WP:CIR issues

• Sarah.Xenos (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sarah.Xenos has been editing Misplaced Pages since early September 2020 (7 months) and is still making basic errors despite multiple requests on her talk page. She does make some very valid contributions but, after 7 months here, competency is still a big issue. For example, just today she made edits to Tanilba Bay, New South Wales that introduced more errors on top of previous errors made by her that I have subsequently fixed. By far her biggest issue seems to be complying with WP:REFPUNCT. There have been 5 warnings on her talk page regarding this. I have been trying to keep up with the errors but lifestyle changes in recent months, and especially now that I have been diagnosed with metastatic melanoma, mean that I'll have less and less time to do so. This editor requires either mentorship or some sterner action from admins as she doesn't seem to be responding to gentle warnings on her talk page. I invite editors to review Shay Dockling, an article that she has written only a few minutes ago, which demonstrates the WP:REFPUNCT problem as well as others. --AussieLegend (✉) 04:46, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree that there is a glaring competency issue with regards to the user's written English skills and adherence to our WP:MOS. The Shay Dockling is chock-full of sentence fragments, punctuation mistakes and oddities. OhNoitsJamie 05:00, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Although Shay Dockling definitely needs copyediting and it is obvious that the editor in question is not a native English speaker, I had no problem understanding the prose despite the problems. Isn't this type of article the very reason why we have enthusiastic copyeditors? Cullen Let's discuss it 05:54, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't see that it's obvious that she's not a native English speaker. Australia is an English speaking country, she lives only 10 km (6.2 mi) from me, volunteers at Newcastle University (17.5 km (10.9 mi) away!) and her edits are all about the local area and Australians. It seems to me that she's just a person with exceptionally poor writing skills. --AussieLegend (✉) 06:15, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Very sorry to hear about your health issues, AussieLegend. I suspect User:Sarah.Xenos may not know she has a user talkpage. That is often the case when a user completely ignores warnings and advice. I have blocked her for two weeks (the length calculated so that she doesn't miss it, since there are substantial gaps in her editing), gently explaining that the purpose of the block is to help her find her talkpage. All admins are invited to unblock once she posts on it (in a reasonable manner). Bishonen | tålk 13:51, 14 April 2021 (UTC).

In addition to the problems above, there are also some issues with copyright infringement because two of her edits have been revdeleted. When somebody makes that many copyright violations, it is likely that there may be more. I think Bishonen's block was a good way to get her attention. Scorpions13256 (talk) 15:13, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Disruptive POINTy AfD !votes and racist comparisons by Johnpacklambert

A user, @Coin945, made 72 (!) AfD nominations in the space of approximately three hours with no delete rationale apparently as an attempt to clear out the "unsourced since 2007" category, including a number of blatantly notable topics like City attorney and Anal sphincterotomy. Multiple people (a solid cross-section of AfD regulars with complex and varied opinions on deletionism/inclusionism and implementation of deletion policy) strongly suggested on his talk page that he withdraw these nominations, due to their disruption to the AfD process, and they received multiple procedural speedy keep !votes. Coin945 appears to be mostly inactive aside from this, and so reasonably may not have seen the encouragement to withdraw, but such nominations could have been speedily kept under WP:SKCRIT#1 regardless.

After strong consensus developed amongst other AfD regulars that these nominations were inappropriate, @Johnpacklambert made delete !votes on all or virtually all of the nominations (cross-section: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/External flow, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/City attorney, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The Cheetah Girls (video game), Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Anal sphincterotomy) while casting aspersions on the motives of editors who desired the nominations procedurally kept on Coin945's talk page by describing them as "showing utter contempt for Misplaced Pages and what it is meant to be". These !votes make SKCRIT invalid, requiring that the disruptive nominations above and beyond what AfD's contributor pool can handle either be IAR closed or run for a full week. In addition to accusing editors who want the noms withdrawn of contempt and essentially NOTHERE, he then went on to repeatedly accuse editors desiring withdrawal of a Jim Crow-style grandfather clause (2, 3) including telling other editors to "go back to 1925 Alabama where they belong", which received some righteously angry criticism from @Hyperion35.

This is not acceptable behaviour, and an editor with JPL's tenure and experience at AfD should be decidedly aware of that by now. There is a limit to what the process can handle, and there is a rather low limit to how many times it's acceptable to compare people who want to avoid said process-bludgeoning to Jim Crow racists. Vaticidalprophet 05:22, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

• Putting aside the nomination discussion, I agree with the comments made above. While I appreciate @Johnpacklambert: for supporting my deletion rationale, I think it highly inappropriate to make the ad hominem attacks on our fine AFD volunteers for doing their job. I would like to apologise for any harm that was caused by comments made below my deletion nominations. Let's keep these AFD discussions rooted in evidence and facts. :)--Coin945 (talk) 05:46, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
• Seems like a good number of these could have been boldly redirected instead of having so many AFD nominations at once, at least IMO. The spam-ish mass-delete votes are as unhelpful as the spam-ish mass-keep votes. Truly, both sides should stop treating AFDs like a procedural battleground. This is an encyclopedia not a weird parliamentary procedure MMORPG. And finally idk what JPL was thinking with those ad hominems; way out of line. Levivich /_hound 06:10, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Also, I don't think it matters if they're closed today or next week. Just let them run. I support striking uncivil !votes tho (as a general matter), and the nom should either confirm they've done the before for all of these, do the before now and then make said confirmation, or withdraw (SK1) those noms for which no before has/will be done and where no one else has voted delete. Levivich /_hound 16:42, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
• I'll second what the others have said, JPL's comments were over the top and a major breach of WP:CIVIL. The mass nomination of articles to AFD by Coin is a problem as well - Even if many of them would end up being deleted regardless, the fact that Coin nominated one further article to AFD after the barrage of messages on their talk page, coupled with the refusal to withdraw them, is irritating and shows a lack of regard for the opinions of those other editors. That being said, unless people have evidence that this has been a recurring problem, I don't think much more than a warning is in order. ThadeusOfNazereth 06:17, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
  • I don't think Coin needs to be sanctioned -- I didn't make him the topic of this thread, after all. Anything stronger than "the ones no one or only JPL wanted to delete are speedy kept, please don't do that again" is IMO punitive. It's understandable that an editor with apparently low activity in recent years might make a trout-y mistake in good faith (certainly we've had some high-profile cases of it lately), and I cut people some slack for not being immediately responsive to a bunch of strangers descending on their talk page with unflattering comments. Vaticidalprophet 06:23, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
• Some of these articles should be deleted, others I'm not sure. Regardless, both sides did a poor job with the AfDs. The nominator failed to explain why the topic wasn't notable. You can't just say its been unsourced for 15 years (although that's usually a good indication of lack of notability), you got to go a step further and say that you don't believe the sources exist (if that is in fact true). And the "procedural keep" argument is just as obnoxious, at least evaluate the article, either it has potential to meet the notability guidelines or it doesn't, you can't just say too many articles were nominated (as if there's an actual limit. I would say that JPL's comments were inappropriate, though not racist. He actually was accusing others of acting like a racist. The comparison doesn't really make sense.--Rusf10 (talk) 06:46, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
• Johnpacklambert's high-volume, bot-like participation in the deletion process, combined with a refusal to discuss concerns civilly, has already resulted in a topic ban from nominating more than one AfD per day; his !voting, however, is similarly disruptive (and for largely the same reasons).

  Here is one example: on February 3, in a 7 min 53 sec interval between 08:59:55 and 09:07:48 he edited 12 AfDs. All of these edits were to !vote delete, except for one Redirect. He spent the following amount of time between each edit: 40, 55, 32, 70, 28, 32, 22, 73, 29, 36, 56 seconds. Similarly, on January 19th, 1065 seconds elapsed between Mystic songs of Sylhet and Willard Keith: 28 AfDs, with an average of 38 seconds spent on each.

  While it's possible that these edits were all composed separately in separate browser windows, queued up over the course of a longer period, and then submitted at the same time (with 20-70 second long breaks between each one for some reason), I think the more parsimonious explanation is that this is simply how long he took to write each !vote out.

  To explain why these numbers are so concerning to me, let's look at an example from today: his !vote on Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Top (technical analysis) "This is a dictionary definition. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopdia, not a dictionary." This edit was made at 12:54:30: his previous edit (to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Tonti diagram) was at 12:53:53, and his next edit (to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Tower array) was at 12:55:08. That's thirty-seven seconds for a !vote. Let's break it down: this !vote is 11 words long, let's say the associated ~~~~ is one word, that leaves us with 12 words. Some quick research suggests that the average typing speed is 32.5 wpm for transcription, and 19.0 wpm for composition, giving us between 22 and 37 seconds just to type out the !vote. Assuming two to three seconds for both page loads (clicking on the AfD's edit link to open up the posting box, and then clicking/alt-shift-S'ing to save the edit), we get an estimate of 26 to 43 seconds just to edit the page and type out the !vote. This leaves between eleven and zero seconds which could have been used for the entire process of evaluating the article; as a point of comparison, the "Find sources" toolbar at the top of the AfD page has eleven links in it.

  It may be pointed out that his AfD ratio is high, and most of his Delete !votes are on articles that get deleted. I don't think this matters here: since a large majority of AfDs close as Delete, !voting D on totally random articles would gives "correct" results in a large majority of discussions, so a "good ratio" does not in itself indicate attention and care is being used in reviewing articles (indeed, 98% of his last 200 !votes were to Delete and 2% were to Merge). More importantly, however, even if he was only !voting on articles certain to be deleted, it's hard for me to understand how an 11-second skim of an article constitutes productive contribution to a discussion. AfD is intended for rational discussion of whether an article is able to meet Misplaced Pages's article guidelines and policies; this involves putting at least some effort into determining whether the individual article meets criteria or not. However, despite being warned and sanctioned for similar behavior in the past, Johnpacklambert has continued to burden the process with extremely large volumes of !votes that prevent such discussion from occurring. It's not that the arguments he makes are solid, or even that they're persuasive: it's just that, in the several minutes of research required to assess an article, find sources and type out a counterargument to one spurious !vote, another twenty will have been made in other AfDs. At that point, why bother?

  It would be obviously disruptive for someone to counter this by !voting in thousands of AfDs with "Keep per WP:BEFORE" at a rate of two per minute: JPL doing this to delete articles is, arguably, more disruptive (articles kept due to spurious !votes can be easily re-nominated for deletion, whereas articles deleted due to spurious !votes are quite difficult to access and re-assess, and there is often little evidence that they even existed outside of redlinks). I'd recommend that his AfD topic ban either be extended to the entire process, or expanded to prevent rapid-fire !voting. jp×g 07:08, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

  • I think this might be the point where serious discussion of a broader tban becomes viable, but it'd require a much more confident definition than we have there. I don't know if a full AfD tban would fly, but moreso for precedent than anything. (People have, of course, been tbanned from all of AfD, and even from every deletion process.) But the behaviour here has flown past what has previously been ascribed to ideological disagreements into full-on battleground-y personal attacks. Vaticidalprophet 07:36, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• I'm really not a fan of the backhanded insinuations of racism. JPL could have picked another example of a grandfather clause that wasn't bound up in ugly race politics. I've protested when other AfD participants have used the venue to imply other people are racists for voting the "wrong" way (and gotten nowhere because prefacing such an attack with the word "keep" is an exemption from the civility rules that apply to the rest of us), and I think it is just as unacceptable for someone voting delete. Reyk _YO! 07:38, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
• While I understand the general history of Jim Crow laws, I'm not getting the exact reference to 1925 Alabama. Did something special happen there in that year? All I can find is "the game that changed the south" which doesn't seem relevant.

  Regarding the issue of the 72 nominations, I observed that Uncle G was on the scene early, providing good guidance. They have been absent for some time so it's good to see them back in action. Uncle G is a veteran of the early days and iirc once explained that the AfD process was deliberately designed to be laborious to discourage frivolous abuse. The tool Twinkle has subverted this design by automating the process and so it is now easy to punch out 72 nominations with a cookie-cutter nomination, as in this case. I also see editors using scripts to make !votes at AfD too so the likely result of such trends is that warring factions will destroy AfD with great salvoes of identical nominations and responses. The logs can't accommodate much more than about 100 nominations/day as a template overload tends to occur. Perhaps Twinkle should limit everyone to one nomination per day?

  Andrew🐉(talk) 08:43, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

  • Andrew, did you genuinely just type "warring factions will destroy AfD with great salvoes of identical nominations and responses." with a straight face? Black Kite (talk) 09:10, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
    • For what it's worth, let's not completely derail this discussion with that, as we all know it can be. ☺ I'd much rather stick to the behaviour evident at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Pani, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Map-based controller, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Imum coeli, the particular behaviour at the head of this section, and of course Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Living Water Christian School. Uncle G (talk) 10:00, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
      • Fair enough. Firstly, simply AfDing articles that are unsourced is a bad idea if that's the only reason you're doing it. BEFORE hasn't been done here, that's clear. FWIW - Pani is an obvious keep , there are always sources for surnames. We actually have a number of articles for people with this surname (i.e. Bhavna Pani) and also the Italian/Spanish version, (i.e. Mario Pani), so there's that as well. The second is more interesting, there's a few references in a BEFORE search but I think the article is also slightly confused as the usage in cars is I believe using "map" in terms of re-mapping. Imum coeli is a concept that looks like it might be better dealt with as part of a more overarching article, but it's OK as it is - it's not a dicdef. The school is ... well, it's a school. It has lots of local coverage. It doesn't have any other coverage. I don't think we need to rehash NSCHOOLS all over again here. Black Kite (talk) 10:20, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
        • The big issue is that there's such a combination, at such high rates, of potentially-has-merit and unlikely-to-have-merit nominations all at once. The onus for BEFORE is on the nominator, and that hasn't been done at all. In turn it'd be one thing if that had just...happened but they could all be procedurally kept (without needing to invoke IAR), but JPL bludgeoned that process too, while being nasty to people who wanted a procedural close to later evaluate some of the nominations on their own merits. Vaticidalprophet 11:07, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
        • Again, though, that's the subjects, and Vaticidalprophet is bringing up the behaviour. The behaviour is rapidly going through most of the discussions Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Log/2021 April 13 and claiming that most articles "belong in a dictionary" even if they are nothing like what dictionary articles are, discounting sources cited (even immediately prior in the discussion) based upon what the article looks like, as well as what is brought up in the head of this discussion. I didn't know about Special:Permalink/769474340#User:Johnpacklambert until today, but some of the observations there about not giving due consideration or effort seem very much on point, as well as what BrownHairedGirl said. Uncle G (talk) 11:32, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
          • Well, yes, but my point was that their behaviour is AfDing articles with no sources and claiming "notability". Like blasting a shotgun randomly into the air, by doing that you're occasionally going to hit a worthwhile target (i.e. Manufacturing test requirement design specification, Natalie Snyder), but most of the time you're going to miss. Coin945 needs to be politely informed how to actually AfD an article properly, by saying why they believe it is non-notable. However I will say to some that have commented on those AfDs - doing a Google search, finding some trivial or vague references to the subject, and then shouting "you didn't do WP:BEFORE!!1!" is equally useless to everyone. Black Kite (talk) 12:10, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
            • You are conflating the behaviour of Coin945, which isn't what this is about with the behaviour of Johnpacklambert, which is. That behaviour is the multiple "Jim Crow" comments, and the rapid-fire, as analysed above, discussion contributions. Uncle G (talk) 13:00, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
              • @Uncle G: Ah, yeah, fair point, that'll teach me to not read things properly (I read it as POINTy AfDs). The behaviour of Coin945 clearly belongs in a separate "WTF are you doing?" thread. 16:12, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
                • @Black Kite: I think you did the five-tilde thing again. jp×g 23:27, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
• Special:Diff/1017617649 directly says "Jim Crow", by the way. Uncle G (talk) 11:56, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
• The burden is on people to show that these articles are notable. The fact that we had this many articles that had been unsourced since 2007 is a very big problem. I have yet to be convinced that city attorney is a notable topic, and even if it is as I said there it is deserving CfD. The city attorney is just a lawyer who works for the city. At least in the US prosecuting criminals is done at a higher or at least different level, but the county prosecturor or district attorney. Some districts may coincide with cities, but these people are not the same as city attorney. The burden is on people who want to keep these articles to show that they are notable, and that is not being done in most of these cases. I will however go back and review my statements.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:04, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Johnpacklambert, I was waiting for you to comment here, hoping that you would make a more convincing statement than this. It's not about the AfDs or the articles, - it's about your comments in them. "go back to 1925 Alabama where they belong" - in a discussion about whether to retain an article on a surgical procedure? That's disgusting. You don't need to 'go back and review your statements', you need to recognise that they were outrageously offensive, and apologise for them unreservedly. GirthSummit _(blether) 12:11, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
    • I was a little out of line with that statement. However my point is that Misplaced Pages does not have a grandfather clause. Articles having existed for 14 years does not show that they are notable. In fact it is a major, major, major problem that articles are allowed to exist even a year without sources. This is a huge problem and noithing is getting done about it, and when people try to do something about it they are constantly stymied at every turn. This is very, very, very frustrating. So is the fact that when people explain why articles do not meet existing standards they are so often met by people who want to increase special pleading. Misplaced Pages does not have a grandfather clause, and that is my point. We should not respond to deletions with speedy keep proposals that have no merits. This whole thing frustrated me. I was out of line. What we really need to do, as I say over and over and over again, is to make all new articles go through the AfD process. In the last month we have considered porposals to delete literally thousands of articles on non-notalbe wells and farms in Iran. I am not exagerating. The fact that someone who takes the time and effort to nominate articles for deletion is met by such obstructionism when the articles have languished for 14 years with no sources at all is very, very frustrating and shows that many editors of Misplaced Pages have no desire to see Misplaced Pages mature into a site where we use reliable sources to create well sourced and accurate articles. That is what I want, and we will not get there if we move forward under any illusion that just because an article has existed for a while it has any merit. Early Misplaced Pages was a horrid place, where biographical articles existed for years with no sources at all. It is not what we want to return to at all.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:24, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
      • I appreciate the apology and explanation here, but I do have to wonder about the feasibility of making new articles go through AFD. We often don't have enough editors participating in AFD as is (just like we don't have enough people participating in AFC, NPP, or any other process), and it seems inevitable that we'll have non-notable articles existing on the site for a long time before somebody notices. ThadeusOfNazereth 14:53, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
        • JPL's position that I've seen him outline before is approx. "force every new article to go through AfC", which in my opinion would be the initiative that turns Misplaced Pages into "the perfect size, just like Citizendium". (But then I am not someone with a glowing view of AfC generally; "better to ask forgiveness than permission" has been baked into the project since day one, for better or worse.) Unsourced or terribly sourced articles are in fact deleted quite often (as JPL knows, because of how many of those discussions he's participated in); the reception to Coin's actions here is not a reception to the fact he nominated unsourced articles, let alone to the fact he nominated long-term unsourced articles, but the fact he nominated three-quarters of the total count of an average day in the space of three hours, with no indication of WP:BEFORE, and then that JPL bludgeoned attempts to handle it how any other WP:TRAINWRECK would be handled while making some atrocious claims and comparisons. Vaticidalprophet 15:35, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
      • The problem is that you are still ignoring the actual arguments of other editors, and you are treating AfDs as if this was a battle for Misplaced Pages's soul. It is a horrible abuse of AGF. Some people believe that some articles should be kept, and go to the trouble of explaining reasons why, and showing either that sources exist or where to find them. You need to stop treating other editors as obstructionists. I can list many reasons why some AfDs actively undermine Misplaced Pages's reputation (multiple female CEOs having their pages deleted in March, Womens History Month? Want to hazard a guess how that makes the site look to half the world's population?), but I try to avoid letting them affect how I respind to editors in AfD because it is irrelevant to the process itself, and it is better to acknowledge and consider that other editors might have good reasons for their opinions.

        I don't know whether this might help, but some time ago an editor added a Keep vote in an AfD where I thought Delete was the best option. This was a complicated medical issue, and the editor's comment seemed to me to be overly simplistic and unworkable, and other editors had already considered and discarded the suggestion. But I checked the editor's userpage, and it was clear that he wasn't an expert on the topic, he was a musician. And I thought about how the response I wanted to tell him would look, all "listen to me, the expert, you ignorant peon!" and cringed. Instead I gave a non-technical explanation of the problems his suggestion would create, and asked him politely if he had a suggestion for how to make it work, and whether he had any other sources he'd like to contribute that might be helpful for us. He responded with a reconsideration that showed that he had taken my advice and had really thought about the issues and was persuaded. My point is, you have to see other editors as people, they may be wrong, they may have missed some important fact, they may not see things your way. But try to work with them to build a better encyclopedia. Hyperion35 (talk) 17:10, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

  • Personally, what I'd like is if you actually put the research effort in, because I like to think that you can if you try. I went and found sources contradicting several of those zero-effort AFD nominations, and as I observed at one point I was the only one doing so out of you, me, and the nominator. That's not right. We need more people doing the research. We don't need zero-effort piled upon zero-effort piled upon zero-effort.

    You asked me whether I was serious at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Clear Lake Keys, California. Yes, very much so. See User talk:Hog Farm#Virginian corners. But the way that we are approaching the GNIS mess is by doing lots of research, looking in history books and suchlike to at least triage things. We need lots more of that, people who think that something is not notable, or perhaps even wholly unverifiable, going and checking.

    If someone could find a Virginia/West Virginia directory of marker trees, then at least we could know which of Reywas32's list of "corners" is just a tree that Misplaced Pages is falsely claiming to be populated by people and which is likely a settlement genuinely named "Something Corner" and in need of more detailed attention, as Hog Farm and I did with "Something Springs" in California with a book of California springs.

    We are putting the effort in. Go and look at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Pepperwood Grove, California. That's people all double-checking one another, and doing the research independently, so that we know at the end that we have got the right result, that we can be confident in. That's some of the best of AFD.

    Uncle G (talk) 12:40, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Navigational break

• I feel obligated to weigh-in here on two counts: (1) the large number of AfDs at once, regardless of reason, and (2) the Jim Crow references. Quite frankly, the latter concerns me most because some editors have been experiencing unwarranted allegations or innuendos of racism based on misconceptions or worse, not to mention oblique comparisons of innocuous or unrelated circumstances to racism in an effort to win an argument. Doing so only serves to lessen the seriousness of the real issues - liken it to the kid who cried wolf. It is a growing issue on WP, and it needs to be nipped in the bud. I don't know if an apology is enough - that is for our admins to decide. As for the AfD issue, I think some possible solutions are:
  1. set a limit on the number of AfD noms by a single editor per day;
  2. establish a holding area for bulk noms with a discussion page;
  3. establish a guideline enforceable policy that makes it mandatory the nominator must first attempt to find RS, or resolve the issue that makes it a delete candidate per the steps outlined in WP:BEFORE, which is what I teach my NPP students to do before nominating; it's an important process. It also applies to AfC, so I'm not sure how all those articles made it to mainspace. Perhaps that should be investigated as well - cut it off at the root. Atsme 💬 📧 15:25, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
  • establish a guideline that the nominator must first attempt to find RS, or resolve the issue that makes it a delete candidate, which is what I teach my NPP students to do before nominating -- WP:BEFORE exists, and yet... Vaticidalprophet 15:35, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
  • (ec) The articles made it to mainspace because standards were less strictly enforced then - the procedures we have in place now for article creation should at least theoretically reduce the potential for large numbers of completely unsourced articles to slip through, although some of the discussions on this page about mass creation of stubs suggests we still have problems. It does suggest that Misplaced Pages needs to something about these sorts of completely unreferenced that have been untouched for a long time, (like we have done for unreferenced BLPs) even if unregulated mass nomination isn't the solution. ANI isn't the place to work out a solution however.Nigel Ish (talk) 15:44, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
• Can we close these discussions? WP:CSK clearly states that we can close these kinds of nominations early. Scorpions13256 (talk) 15:57, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) Part of the issue is those criteria require no one other than the nominator !vote delete, and JPL bludgeoned that process. They could be closed on the basis that holding to the letter of that rule does not improve the encyclopedia. Vaticidalprophet 16:08, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

My bad for the first one that I closed. My finger slipped, and I was not aware of that part of the rule. I will not close the remaining ones citing WP:IAR because I am not a big fan of it. I'll just let the remaining ones stay open. Scorpions13256 (talk) 16:17, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm quite a fan of IAR myself. What I'm not a fan of is my chances with making IAR NACs without rousing the fury of the "ban all AfD NACs" contingent. Vaticidalprophet 16:36, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't be a fan of putting the acronyms "IAR" and "NAC" next to each other at any point. If there's an IAR closure to do, let an admin take the heat, they're used to it. Black Kite (talk) 16:54, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

• There are two problems here, of very different natures. Coin945 was wrong to do as he did, WP:BEFORE and WP:ATD are not minor suggestions, they are actual requirements. Editors have been wrong before, and ideally this sort of mistake should be trivial to reverse, and hopefully the lesson will be learned. The editor appears to have acted in good faith, however, and I would consider it the equivalent of accidentally hitting "Reply All" on an office email, annoying and mortifying, but not a serious offense.

  Mr. Lambert is a more serious matter. His comment was incredibly offensive, irrelevant, and unnecessary. My father used to require security escorts when he went out to register Black voters in the 1960s. I live in a major Southern city, I have seen the literal blood and sweat that has been spent reversing the legacy of the Confederacy and Jim Crow. While it is true that "grandfather clause" is often used in non-discriminatory issues, Mr. Lambert was pretty explicit in making it a Jim Crow comparison (because in 1925 in Mississppi, that was the only context for a Grandfather Clause). There is no way to compare keeping a rather mundane article on Misplaced Pages to systematic violent racist disenfranchisement, it is beyond absurd.

  It is also a symptom of a broader problem with Mr. Lambert's comments. Right above his "1925 Alabama" remark, my comment was essentially the same thing I would have said if my boss sent me an email right now telling me that we needed to gather information on this procedure as part of a review of reimbursement rates or regulations or medically unlikely edits, if perhaps a bit more terse and frustrated. I was actually looking through our chart of CPT codes to see if I could find the correct ones to add to the article when I checked and saw Mr. Lambert's response. I don't like to have to pull this card, but if you're wondering why Misplaced Pages has trouble retaining experts, this is one admittedly minor reason.

  Mr. Lambert did not contribute anything to the discussion, and even aside from the bizarre comparisons to Jim Crow, he seems overtly hostile towards anyone who votes to keep an article, refuses to engage on the merits of the article, and his own words show a distinct view of AfD as a battle between "deletionists" and "inclusionists", rather than a place where people consider the merits of a given subject and offer reasons why we might keep or delete it, where editors often spot things that might have been missed by others. This attitude appears in almost all of his comments on yesterdays mass AfDs, as well as his response to Coin945's talk page. I think that he is not productively contributing, and cannot productively contribute if he sees AfD discussions in such conspiratorial and factional terms. Hyperion35 (talk) 16:28, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

  • One day, someone will rise to the challenge of Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Surgical Incisions. ☺ Uncle G (talk) 17:39, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
    • I clicked on that, expecting it to be an April Fools prank. I'm genuinely speechless and more than a little impressed. Usually those sorts of "helpful" changes require a whole committee. Hyperion35 (talk) 18:13, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
• Some of the AfDs have other Delete !votes as well now (as I said above, a scattershot shooting will hit some correct targets). Those should not be closed. Black Kite (talk) 16:30, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
  • (Passing note: you accidentally put an additional tilde in your signature above.) The ones with delete !votes from people other than JPL should be left to run a week, yeah. Not sure how many that is -- quite few. Vaticidalprophet 16:37, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
    • At this point, more of these are attracting delete or merge !votes. A significant number were good candidates for deletion, the problem was a lack of understanding of the process. Elli (talk | contribs) 18:04, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
• Lambert's response of "I was a little out of line with that statement" speaks volumes. Please do not brush this matter under the carpet. Lugnuts 17:23, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
• FWIW, and I appreciate that it's noway near the offensiveness of the comment Mr. Lambert made as discussed above, he made this comment about redirects on a cricket AfD, when nothing of the like has happened within the past year as I can work out. It just seems that at times he wishes to cause gripes with other editors with his comments. Many articles he has voted on may well be suitable deletion candidates, but these comments, and certainly those of racial nature are completely unnecessary/unacceptable at AfD. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 17:45, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

  A very bad !vote. Not just the conspiracy theory aspect, but because Nauman Sadiq clearly passes WP:CRIN (a WP:SNG, complementary to WP:GNG). Narky Blert (talk) 19:41, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

  Narky Blert, yes and no. On one hand I have seen people sneak back after an AfD is closed as redirect to restore the article without addressing the reasons raised at the discussion, though this has usually been related to articles about fiction; the D&D enthusiasts in particular used to do this all the time. On the other hand I haven't seen any such shenanigans from the cricket people though, so I think that particular accusation from JPL is off the mark. And on the gripping hand, WP:CRIN is so awful at predicting which subjects will actually pass GNG given enough time and research that it actually carries no weight anymore and hasn't for months. Reyk _YO! 09:36, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• I'm not sure if this is related, but it seems worth bring up that just last week User: Liz warned him that he needs to use an edit summary when he PRODs an article; she had previously warned him of the same thing on March 11. 2601:249:8B80:4050:6D3B:D5BA:1BFB:F4C9 (talk) 22:39, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

  Note that those warnings came AFTER this ANI thread for the same thing, were it was closed with the remarks "...JPL has agreed to take the feedback on board and act differently..." But he continues to show the same pattern of behaviour. Lugnuts 07:02, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comments on his talk page also point to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Leo Lebeau where users were noting problematic comments from him there last month as well. 2601:249:8B80:4050:6D3B:D5BA:1BFB:F4C9 (talk) 22:39, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

  Specifically in this case, I will leave it to others to judge whether his comment "I have a right to favor a definition of marriage that is in the best interest of children and editor above will not silence me" is "the shocking homophobic remark left by John Pack Lambert that in my view should not even be allowed on Misplaced Pages" as posted by User:Eiko237 in their apparent final edit on Misplaced Pages. 2601:249:8B80:4050:6D3B:D5BA:1BFB:F4C9 (talk) 13:51, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

  As someone who happens to be gay, this is disheartening to read...--Coin945 (talk) 14:10, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• See selection below. This is by no means exhaustive, but serves merely as a small sample of the issues over the years.

In which JPL is banned from more than one AFD nomination

In which JPL is topic banned for amongst other things, making racist accusations

In which JPL's obsession with categories and sexist editing resulted in contributing to significant negative press

Block for edit-warring BLP violations

Is it now time to revisit the ban idea from all deletion discussions I previously suggested due to JPL's complete inability to understand the problems he causes. Despite promising (again) to take feedback on board, once again we are here.

So far JPL's history of editing is one of warring with other editors, engaging in systematic sexism, accusations of racism, obsession with categorisation, abuse of living people, disregard for other editors by deliberate abuse of the deletion processess, and rampant incivility. So what point do we get to show him the door? Is it that time yet? Do we need someone to write up some more news pieces naming him publically? Because as with the Tenebrae saga, that is the current bar it takes to get action here. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:10, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I am very, very, very, very sorry about making the complex comparison to grandfather clauses and wish to most profusely apologize for it. I have struck all such comments, and wish again to most profusely apologize for it. I wish to do so in the most apologetic manner possible.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:28, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• The above accusation of "systemic sexism" is a clear sign of people thinking it is fair to accuse me in the most nasty ways, and I am sick and tired of it. Especially when people accuse me of such 8 years after the fact. This dregging up the past is getting very annoying. It is an unfair accusation, much of it is based on total and complete lies about the matter at hand, and it ignores the goals and motivations of those involved in the process. To understand what I mean, the category Category:American women novelists was created by a user who wanted to highlight a different set of articles on women than they felt were then highlighted in Misplaced Pages. Their intentions were noble. The issue came because of the complex conflict because of diffusing and non-diffusing categories. It came about because Misplaced Pages has a complex categorizsation system that takes a lot of effort to naviage clearly. Non-difusung categories are an odd exception to general category rules, and they do not apply in all cases. Sports and acting we fully diffuse, and category rules have lots of other exceptions. To call attempts to apply such rules "sexism" is to imply bad intentions to legitimate attempts to make Misplaced Pages a better place. To refuse to recognize that such was done in good faith, and to attack someone over it literally 8 years later is just beyond reasonable. As I said before I am very sorry about my taking the linguistic origins of the term "grandfather clause" and applying it in ways that were unkind and uncharitable. However I am really, really, really tired of this "attack John for a misunderstanding of our complex categorization system 8 years ago that he had tried his hardest to not repeat in the ensuing 8 years". This is just too much. I think we should go to forcing every editor to use their real name, so they can be exposed to the same character assasinations as above.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:28, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, how many times has there been a case brought up against JPL at ANI? This honestly feels like the same issues resurfacing again and again. It doesn't feel that long ago with the last issue. This clearly is a long standing problem. Govvy (talk) 14:56, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

JPL and communication

Ok, so I've interacted with JPL over many years. My experience is a.) he seems to get frustrated when people don't seem to understand the point he is making, as well as (a situation not uncommon in XFD) people attack him and/or his words in ad hominum attacks rather than the topic under discussion, and b.) possibly because of this, he often takes comments about his nominations as just more of the personal attacks, when he seems to just want to discuss the topic in question. and all too often leads to c.) him saying things that to the outside viewer that appear to be really inappropriate. (I'm not adding diffs out of fairness to him, and because there are plenty above which help illustrate this) And I should note that I've seen editors clearly intentionally bait him in a discussion as well.

I'm not a doctor by any means, but just a thought - I linked at the top of this thread that JPL has self identified having a diagnosis of Asperger's.

And while I don't think we should ignore/excuse offensive communication, I wonder if the communication issues that are being seen may have some source in that.

And I think it would be unfair to exclude JPL from XFD, and he has shown at times to not be disruptive in discussing there.

So here's my suggestion for moving forward -

1.) JPL can't use the PROD system anymore. He doesn't seem to be following the process and opposed prods seem to lead more to the type of frustrated communication we seem to see. I'm not seeing much in the way of anything productive here. In my opinion, for JPL, the structure of XFD, seems to be at least somewhat better to help focus the duscussion.

2.) Limit JPL to only a few (4 or less, maybe?) nominations at XFD per week for similar reasons. (I'm writing it this way because if we limit it to one a day, we'll start seeing disparate group noms.) The goal here is to reduce the amount of "nominator attacks" he receives per week that he will need to deal with at the same time. (Since around a week is the minimum duration of most XfD discussions), and since, in my opinion anyway, I think such scenarios is a fair part of the issue here

3.) Suggest to JPL that when ever he is faced with a situation where he feels he is being attacked, to disengage - stop responding to that editor in the discussion. There is no requirement that we respond to something someone says in an xfd discussion, just because they ping us. (My suggestion to him might be to not comment in that discussion for at least 24 hours or longer. This should give him a chance for reflection on how to better communicate.)

I sincerely hope this helps. - jc37 14:39, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose The above nominations shows clear intention to use my being open about being on the autism spectrum to discriminate against my ability to participate in AfD. This is clear discimination against me as a person. I am sick and tired of it.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:46, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

  My intent is foster understanding, not discrimination. Because, to be honest, I think the discussion above is leading to to you being topic banned from XFD entirely, which I don't think is fair to you for the reasons I noted. I apologize that you saw anything different in my above comments. - jc37 15:07, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

  If you really wanted to foster nderstanding you would go after someone who made false accusations of sexism based on false and malicous attacks on what I did 8 years ago. That was a horrible case of hating on me. It was unfair, it was based on falsely representing things, and one of the articles engaged in mean spirited and hurtful attacks on me for all sorts of things. If you wanted civility you would go after that most uncivil of comments above, not find a way to put new puntitives restrictions on me.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:48, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

  I'm not going to dig into an 8 year old event (that I honestly do not recall, off the top of my head). - As I said above and will repeat - Yes, you have been attacked in the past. and baited too. So have I, so have others. I'm not saying that that's right. But each person can only control what they say, not the other person. And right now, the discussion appears to be about concerns about your editing. I believe that your apology below was well meant. Let's accept that in the past mistakes were made and try to move forward. We'll see what the community decides in the end, but as for me, I was and am merely trying to give you the benefit of the doubt after (as I think you would agree) many years of interacting with you at cfd and elsewhere. I think you can be a productive contributor. But the way things are moviong above, I'm concerned that we will lose you as a contributor at all of XFD. Anyway, I'll let others comment from here. As I said, for whatever it's worth, my goal was merely to help. - jc37 18:09, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment My view is that AfD is an open process. There is no reason to treat the nominator's effort as the final say on the matter. So speedy closing just because you thought there were too many nominations is a horrible plan. If we have a huge group nomination it might work, but an individual nominition should be treated on its merits. A speedy keep that ignores the fact each AfD nomination is considered on its own needs to be treated as invalid. As I said I am apoogizing profusely for my over reaction to such things. However it is beyond frustrating that refusing to treat nominations on their own merits is allowed at all. We need to change the whole process on this matter. I keep apologizing for going too far, but people here seem to want to punish me for trying to contribute to Misplaced Pages.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:51, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Comment: ASDs and subclinical traits of them are, ahem, prevalent enough on this site that I honestly don't think treating those editors who happen to both know about and openly disclose one radically differently to the rest is good practice (indeed it often comes off patronizing). I have some thoughts generally on the tendency of many editors to react to declined PRODs and to claim "PROD is broken" or the like -- my observation is people who make a big deal out of PROD being 'useless' are people who get a lot of those deprodded articles kept at AfD, i.e. the system is working as intended. (I say this as someone with some blue in my PROD log.) It's clear a lot of people in this conversation are getting to a breaking point with JPL and that the actions here (even with his apology that I have no reason to doubt or downplay the sincerity of) have gotten the conversation to a point where they're seriously reassessing "can we really just go through the ANI cycle with him every couple months with nothing changing?", and I am confident Jc37 is intending his proposal with sympathy, even if -- as we can see -- it didn't exactly come through. Vaticidalprophet 15:03, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Also, for what it's worth, I'm not at all confident that repeating someone else's mention of their neurotype in a much higher-profile place than the discussion it first occurred in is good practice. Vaticidalprophet 15:16, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Comment I am very, very, very, very sincerly sorry for my comments. I recognize that I was totally out of line. I value participating in AfD a lot and very much want to continue to do so. I am trying to make positive and helpful contributions. I am very, very, very, very sorry for my out of line comments. I have apologized profusely and am really trying to move beyond this incident. Engging is Misplaced Pages is one of the most important and enjoyable things I do in my life. Banning me from participating at all would be cruel and wrong. I have apologized. I have gone back and struck every one of my comments. I have said I am sorry. I am sincerly trying to make this right. I am really, really trying. I want to fix this. I am sorry very profusely. I am not blaming other people. I was out of line. I admit that. I am pleading for forgiveness.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:57, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
  • I (as mentioned) genuinely believe you're sincere and recognize your comments were out of line, and I accept that apology/offer forgiveness. I have no ill will or desire to cause you harm. I do recognize a lot of people are obviously frustrated with a pattern of behaviour, and that you have a history of being brought to ANI over AfD-related issues. I don't want to take something enjoyable away from you, and I certainly wouldn't support any initiative to curtail your participation on the entire website, but a lot of people are seriously concerned that you haven't taken on board things that you were strongly advised in previous threads. Vaticidalprophet 16:02, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
    • A thought: would you be willing to submit to a formal mentorship process if anyone were to volunteer one and the community agreed it was valuable, to help you take those comments and suggestions on board and collaborate productively in AfD? Vaticidalprophet 16:06, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Comment With regards to the proposed measures, it was my understanding that Mr. Lambert was already under an order not to nominate more than one XfD per day (the issue of multiple articles at once was addressed in that ruling as well). I am not sure that further limiting him to 4 per week is useful, given the existing limitation. Further, the problem seems to be his communication and relations with other editors.

  There are editors who post things I disagree with in AfD. If I comment, it is along the lines of "you say there are no sources, but you have not addressed Source X and Source Y mentioned above" or "WP:THREE is a personal essay, not a guideline". The important part is that we must all keep our comments focused on the content in those discussions, and work together towards the goal of building an encyclopedia based on sets of guidelines.

  The problem is that Mr. Lambert does not seem to do this. It is not just his ridiculous comparison to Jim Crow grandfather clauses, but the broader mentality of AfD as a battle for the soul of Misplaced Pages, with himself as the defender of all that is holy against those wicked "inclusionists" who would destroy the encyclopedia if not stopped. Go and read his various comments referenced above and you'll see that this is not much of an exaggeration. This is the root of the problem. Hyperion35 (talk) 16:08, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• Additional concerns (making this a separate comment for clarity). In addition to the above suggestions, I believe that Mr. Lambert should not participate in discussions (including but not limited to XfDs) involving LGBT individuals, broadly construed. The self-declared bias is simply too obvious to ignore, and honestly this is for his own good to avoid making comments that will absolutely get him sitebanned if made in the wrong context. The fact that his views are based on his religion is the only reason I'm not suggesting a siteban right now.

  Finally, as to the issue of any neurodevelopmental disorders, that is not an excuse for conduct. I have ADHD, I know not to edit during the hour before I take my afternoon dose of Adderall (or the 40 minutes or so until it takes effect). I am epileptic, I don't even have to be told not to edit after a seizure (nor would I want to). If Mr. Lambert's condition prevents him from being able to edit, he should not edit. If it requires some sort of accomdation, he should seek out accomodation, for example if he believes that it prevents him from understanding an editor's comments, he should ask for clarification first. Hyperion35 (talk) 16:08, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - WTF? The 72 AFDs that prompted this thread were not nominated by JPL. So why would we restrict the number of nominations by JPL? PROD has nothing to do with anything in this report. Why would the proposed sanction include PROD? JPL was uncivil, but those comments have now been struck. I don't care what JPL (or anyone else) did 8 years ago. It's very clear that some people don't actually give a hoot about the incivility, they care more that JPL votes delete, and they're trying to use the former as a way to restrict the latter. JPL should be warned/reminded about the incivility; and if there are a lot of recent examples of incivility (not 8 years ago), then maybe JPL should be restricted from AFD, but if so, that should be for incivility, not because he votes delete too often. When you start wanting to restrict noms and prods and those have nothing to do with anything in this report, it's very transparent what you're all doing; now stop it. Levivich /_hound 16:15, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

  Not speaking for anyone else, but my post above has zero to do with keep/delete. I've seen many places where he has expessed Keep in a descussion. And Liz (among others) has pointed out some PROD issues. Prod merely exists to help with AFD clutter. a Prod restriction doesn't prevent someone from still nominating the page at afd for discussion. Additionally, I'm trying to not flood with diffs, because I think it will not be helpful to JPL. Though yes I have seen very recent examples of what I am talking about. this has been ongoing for years, not just occuring years ago. And finally, I don't think your assumption of bad faith is being helpful here, but YMMV. of course - jc37 16:24, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

  • This is why I hate these discussions. People just broaden them into throwing on any and all attacks they can, instead of focusing on the issue at hand. I have corrected that issue and do not think it is fair to bring it up at all. The fact that an issue from April of 2013 was brought up shows that there is truly vindictiveness on some people's part. The fact that it was brought up in false way that involves lieing about my actions and intentions is even more galling. Evidently you will no give forgiveness or accept apologizes. I corrected the issue. I went through and struck the comments. I struck a huge number of other votes that did not directly realte to the comments and reanalized them considering new information, or reconsidering the information at hand. I have tried to clearly improve everything involved. i will admit I was wrong in my attempts to delve into the history of the Grandfather clause. I most profusely apologize for that. However I am not wrong in saying that it is a problem in Misplaced Pages. You have to look no further than the nomination for Category:Wells–Bennett–Grant family. Initially people were arguing to keep the category because we had an article, even though the article had no sources of any kind. I am sorry for letting the slowness of the process get to me. I have profusely apologized for that over and over and over and over and over and over again. What I want to see is more articles to reach the level of being well sourced we have in Dallin H. Oaks, although that article gives undue weight to some things and I think has no really considered how he is truly impactful on a broad scale. i think it may also underestimate his contribution to the formation of the federal public defenders program. The article on Dallin H. Oaks was an unsourced stub for about the first two years that it existed. I have apologized for my actions. I think that turning a discussion of one event into a kitchen sink attack fest is exactly what we do not want to do.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:44, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

  • I have profusely apologized for my coments. I was wrong. I was also wrong to go over the top and accuse those who favor keeping cricketer articles of being willing to do an end run around the process. I profusely apologize for that. I will explain my flawed thinking. We have explained that subject specific guidelines are just meant to suggest that GNG is likely to be met, but it has been shown that in the case of criket this is not at all true, so in that situation it would be expected that people when told that an article does not meet GNG would answer that issue, instead of fasely asserting subject specific guidelines negate a need to meet GNG, they do not. They are meant to suggest GNG is likely to be met if we search really hard, but in the case of cricket that has not provied to be the case. I am very, very, very sorry for that comment. I have made many comments on circket related deletion discussions since than and have done so in a civil manner that has avoided assigning negative intentions to other editors, and I again profusely apolgize for that comment. I was the one who went through and struck all the comments above, it was not done by anyone else, so I have shown a willingness to as much as I can fix the problem created by my actions. I have profusely apolozied for it as well. For the record, my actions 8 years ago that brought such wide spread attacks were in no way uncivil. They were a reasult of applying the general rule of category building in Misplaced Pages while ignoring our headache causing exception to that general rule. A headache causing exceltion that is so little understaood that I could literally go and find thousands of cases of articles that have categories that do not conform to ERGS rules, and I could go through and find hundreds of categories that by either convention of agreement do not conform to ERGS rules at all. I have even proactively made various nominations in CfD with the intention of improving our conformace to ERGS rules. I have apolgized over and over again. I went to the work of reviewing all AfDs in existence to ensure that I found and removed every last one of my out of line comments. I have apologized profusely. I really do want to increase the level of civility in Misplaced Pages discourse. It is just hard to attain such when so many discussions are just not engaged in at all. For example I nominated some categories for deletion about a month ago. Some of these nominations have had no comments about them at all. I am very, very, very sorry for my over reaction. I was out of line. I admit that. I am trying to do all I can to make things better. I really want to increase the level of civility in our discussions.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:31, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• FWIW, JPL has apologized for any comment of his that may have been considered inappropriate to extend this would be to inundate JPL. More annoying is that some of the editors with an opinion here are the ones who do next to nothing when it comes to building an encyclopedia and only stalk ANI and live for the drama. A lousy lot I must say. Celestina007 (talk) 16:46, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Name names, because I'm seeing, if anything, many more productive content contributors than the ANI norm. If you're comfortable accusing people of not building an encyclopedia, you're comfortable saying exactly who you're thinking of. Vaticidalprophet 16:52, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

@Vaticidalprophet, I should name names? to what end? To elongate the drama? You just validated my point and I didn’t even have to mention a name. That would be all, I won’t be entertaining any questions or comments. Celestina007 (talk) 17:11, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Because if you're going to accuse people of essentially NOTHERE (which may I note is what started this), you should have the guts to actually say who you mean instead of going "teehee, if you think anything about my statement was intended as a harmful and evasive dramabomb then you're NOTHERE!". I respect you, and I don't think anyone, let alone someone worthy of any respect, should be making such cruel and baseless assertions with such a dramatic and evasive style. Vaticidalprophet 17:17, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

@Vaticidalprophet, I also have great respect for your work and you as an editor and when I made mentioned of editors who do nothing meaningful but live for the drama, I promise you I didn’t have you in mind. In summary i guess what I’m trying to say is, there isn’t any need to elongate or escalate the matter. Celestina007 (talk) 19:05, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• You might get some insight at User talk:Celestina007#A call to engage in character assasination. 2601:249:8B80:4050:6D3B:D5BA:1BFB:F4C9 (talk) 17:09, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• That is certainly an example of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and of the underlying problem at hand. I also think that it is rather poor advice to give to Mr. Lambert, as it is not constructive at all to encourage him to think of this as a crusade or to view people as "inclusionists" vs "deletionists." We really need to try to remember that we are all on the same team here. Hyperion35 (talk) 17:56, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Dear Celestina,

Agreed, this is an ongoing issue which must be addressed.

Blessings,

Yaakov W.Yaakov Wa. (talk) 17:22, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• I would like to again apoligize for my comments. They were out of line. What I should have said is "A key part of Misplaced Pages is Misplaced Pages:Verifiability. This is a rule that applies to every article. This is the main focus on these nominations. If we want to build a collaborative and better project, we need to not act in ways that bite the head off sincere contributors. We need to consider this article in light of this principal." I am very sorry that I engaged in less than productive dialogue.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:56, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
  • I think that it is good that you are sorry. My primary concern is the attitude behind your conduct, specifically related to what you said here. I would like to see some sense that you understand that, aside from a few genuine vandals and zealots, most editors are trying to build a better encyclopedia. Some editors disagree with you over what it should look like. That does not mean that you are wrong or that they are wrong, but it does mean that you need to be able to participate in good-faith discussions instead of acting as though editors who disagree with you are going to destroy Misplaced Pages. You also need to abandon the idea of "deletionists" and "inclusionists". Some people err more on one side or the other, but you should generally assume that most editors are trying to improve Misplaced Pages. In general this is advice that a lot of people need to hear, you're not the only offender. But what I would like to see is dropping the idea of any sort of grand crusade to save Misplaced Pages, and recognition that people can disagree with you without being villains in your mind. Hyperion35 (talk) 17:14, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
    • You are right, I was too harsh in my comment there, and I apologize. I am very, very, very sincerely sorry.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:17, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• I still want to know why it is ok for someone to falsely accuse me of sexism over a false representation of events from 8 years ago, go on to call for people to write more hurtful attack articles on me and try to include them in publications. That is truly a vindictive position, and no one has called it out at all.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:19, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
  • The only person who keeps bringing up the sexism issue is yourself. Someone seems to have mentioned it above, but it see,s to have been universally ignored as irrelevant. I am not sure what you are talking about with regards to attack articles. My advice would be to step back from this discussion and refrain from commenting for a few hours, simple because you are digging a hole. I would suggest that Vaticidal Prophet, myself, and others, are actually offering you the best defense that you are likely to get, even if it may not seem that way at the moment. Take a deep breath, take the afternoon off, calm down, and come back and re-read some of the comments here from VP and myself about specific concerns with your behavior, and instead of immediately apologizing, think for a bit about what we are saying. We are not trying to get you banned, not even from AfDs. We are trying to help you recognize specific behaviors and attitudes that are not constructive, specific things that you could change in your approach that might help you improve your editing and efforts. Hyperion35 (talk) 17:37, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Comment If people here were most motivated by wanting civility, there would be a univesal attack on the comments that falsely accuse me of sexism. The fact that there has not been any rebutal of those malicious comments makes the claim that incivility is the number one concern suspect. I not only apologized, but I went to the trouble of striking my comments. I have made two AfD nomination's in the last 2-3 days, and no one here has bothered to point out any problems with either. I will admit they both may have been a bit on the wordy side, but the one for a school has had 2 delete votes and 1 redirect. The other has had no votes yet, but I identfied a very through search that I did, specified additional sources, and I think explained why they do not add up to enough. I may not have fully summarized it enough (in part because I got distracted by this), but I will go back and try to do that.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:25, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
  • If all your participation in AfD had the clearly brilliant and caring level of research involved in something like Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/David O. Leavitt, the only complaint people would have about your editing is that you don't use enough paragraph breaks. (This would be true regardless of whether they agreed with your rationale; as Hyperion notes, 'wanting an article kept you want deleted' is a disagreement on an issue and not a personal slight.) Note JPxG's analysis above about the amount of time between your AfD !votes. The criticisms your behaviour receives are not an inclusionism-or-deletionism matter. Vaticidalprophet 17:29, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
    • The problem is that in Misplaced Pages people spend way, way, way, way more time criticizing. Praise is very, very rare. People need praise.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:38, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Comment I am still waiting for someone to actually call out the malicious attack on me over events 8 years ago.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:39, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Comment I think some of the frustration comes down to people ignoring this statement under the verifiability guidelines "For how to write citations, see citing sources. Verifiability, no original research, and neutral point of view are Misplaced Pages's core content policies. They work together to determine content, so editors should understand the key points of all three. Articles must also comply with the copyright policy." Just above that we have "All material in Misplaced Pages mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable." Also we have "Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed." This absolute core policy in Misplaced Pages seems to be generally ignored in deletion discussions.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:13, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Comment I feel a need to again apolgize. I was very out of line. I am sorry. I should not have engaged in such rhetoric. I am very, very, very sorry for doing so and wish to apolgize profusely.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:13, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose Johnpacklambert has made a large amount of good contributions and also bringing up the fact he has aspergers is nonsense, he seems like he made a mistake. Des Vallee (talk) 04:40, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Proposal for lighter and more focused restriction

You'd think I was ready to endorse anything after that wall of text I posted above, but the above proposal seems silly to me.

• First of all, he's already restricted from nominating more than one AfD per day (the editor who nommed the huge block on April 13 is Coin945, a totally different person).
• Second of all, who said anything about PROD?
• Third of all, who gives a damn if he's an autist? Probably half the people here are autists. I can neither confirm nor deny being one myself (since I'm not sure if I will get pwned in a similar fashion later for having said so), but plenty of people I know on this project are, and it is not a problem for them or for me. This doesn't seem relevant, and it feels kind of weird to bring it up at all.
• Fourth of all, I don't think that the category edits demonstrate that JPL is sexist, or that the Jim Crow comparisons demonstrate that he is racist. While mindbogglingly ill-advised, they both represent severe failure to consider how something would come across, which is not the same thing as deliberate expression of prejudice. I'd prefer to contribute to a project where people can say something awkward or stupid, and not be held accountable for people insisting they meant the worst possible version of it.

That said, there is one issue that a number of people have mentioned, and it's quite simple: JPL contributes to a very large number of deletion discussions, he does so at a rate (sometimes as little as 22 seconds between !votes) where it would be physically impossible to have done appropriate research, he is open about doing this for WP:BATTLEGROUND reasons, he is often confrontational with other editors, and he often fails to adequately consider the impact of what he says. For example, according to his AfD stats, he made eighty votes on April 5 and seventy-three on April 6. This is an issue (and him being an autist is not). I think that the issues with WP:BATTLEGROUND are almost all directly downstream of him participating in so many AfDs (per the stats, of the last 500 AfDs he's !voted in, one hundred and forty of them are currently open). Wouldn't you feel like it was a battle if there were 140 open discussions for people to argue with you in at any given time? In light of this, my suggestion would be rather simple: that JPL be limited (or, hell, limit himself) to ten AfD !votes per day. This seems quite a bit easier on him than to be banned from the process entirely -- and if there continued to be problems, the restriction could always be extended (in the same manner as his topic ban from nominating more than one article per day). I have no reason to believe that he is just a garbage editor, or incapable of contributing positively: certainly there are circumstances under which a site ban would be warranted, but I don't want him to get sitebanned. It is clear that he is making a decent and good-faith effort to change his behavior (i.e. by striking his recent short AfD !votes and replacing them with better-thought-out ones), despite being ganked in this thread by about a dozen people at the same time. I think that ought to count for something. jp×g 18:12, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support as hopefully a good way for JPL to work in the project. I genuinely have no desire to harm or unduly sanction him; this is a way for him to demonstrate that he does enjoy AfD, that he does like Misplaced Pages, that he does believe in these principles he lays out. Ten !votes a day is not an overly harsh restriction; it's an opportunity to do in-depth research, to find what's what, to be confident in the end that you've made the right decision. JPL wants to do those things. I believe he can do those things. Vaticidalprophet 18:17, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Yes it is an overly harsh restriction. Especially when given without any time limit. There have been days when over 5 articles I created have been nominated for deletion. This is an absurd limit. It does not at all acknowledge the verifiability principal. This is a super harsh restriction. I am not the one who plindly mass put the same response to over 50 articles. I went back and struck every one of my out of line comments. This is over the top and wrong headed. It will effectively silence me and detroy my adility to participate in AfD at all. A limit of ten is totally unreasonable. If it is imposed it will show a clear decision to silence me and deny me effectively any participation in Misplaced Pages at all. It is so absurdly low it might as well be zero. It totally ignores the actual volume of AfD at present.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:24, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
    • It is so absurdly low it might as well be zero -- I don't agree with this, and I don't think most people who frequent AfD do. I would consider myself a regular !voter and make significantly fewer than ten !votes on an average day. I once went a full month with virtually none due to a self-imposed hiatus after I had an action criticised. If AfD introduced a hard rule that no one could make more than ten !votes a day, it would affect very few people, including very few of the people who are 'regulars' there. (As regards your comments about sanctioning people who bring up some unfortunate past occurrences, keep in mind that the majority of participants of this conversation have confidently stated they do not agree with bringing those up, and understand your justifications.) Vaticidalprophet 19:18, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
      • Well, I am not you. The fact of the matter is there was a period of time where sometimes 3 days a week 5 articles I created would be nominated for deletion a day. The whole episode involved nominating for deletion articles on leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that all had at least 2 sources that were published in printed publications. At the same time huge numbers of articles on leaders of the Catholic Church with only 1 blog source were ignored. The whole episode really felt and still feels like it was motivated by religious animus.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:34, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
        • Correct me if I'm wrong, but 5 seems like a substantially smaller number than 10. jp×g 20:09, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Super strong oppose The absurd limit proposed above is just plain absurd. This would effectively silence me from participanting in any AfD debates at all. This is truly unfair and unreasonable. Other people participate in huge humbers of AfD discussions and do not in any way indicate anything but copy and paste interactions. Such people include Luggnuts who has engaged in some attacks against me above. There have been days when 5 or more articles I created have been nominated for deletion by the same editor in fact. I have apologized profusely for my comments. The above proposal is way, way, way more draconian than others. It woud silence me. It is absurdly puntative.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:24, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment This is just plain absurd. It is puntative. It is just wrong. I have apologized multiple times. I have fixed every out of line edit. The fact that people still want to punish me shows a true vindicitivness and something that is just wrong. It is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. I have tried, tried, tried to fix this. Everyone wants to punish me. No one is holding the person who attakced me with false accusations over an event 8 years ago responsible. This is wrong.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:36, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Comment I am tired of falsely being called racist and sexist. Those are complete and total lies. I have apologized more times than I can count. I am tired of the vindictive and puntative process going on here. It is just wrong. i am not allowed any defense. I am attacked for every mistake even if it is 8 years ago, and people lie about what I did and engage in malicious attacks on me. This whole process is wrong headed and wrong.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:38, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• @Johnpacklambert: If you read the comment that I used to open this section, you will see that I said several times that I thought these accusations were unfair. I would appreciate if you responded to what I actually mentioned as issues (the eighty !votes in one day, the !votes made with less than eleven seconds of research, the explicit WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:RGW attitude, etc). jp×g 18:47, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• If you really thought the comments were unfair you would propose santioning the truly out of line person who attacked me falsely about events 8 years ago. Instead you propose to essentially kill my participation in AfD. You pretent to be my friend and then stab me in the back. Your poposal would silience me far, far, far more than the poposal that you respo9nded to. If there was any justice on Misplaced Pages the person who brought up the events from 8 years ago and proposed publishing articles attacking me would be the only one facing sanctions. There is no justice in Misplaced Pages unless you withdraw your attacks on me. Right now there is a double standard which says we will punish John is he apoligizes 10 times and rescinds his offending edits, but another person can engage in just as uncil actions and go unpunished. This is not justice, it is a special type of punishment that whatever your false claims otherwise shows that I was right that I should have continued to hide my autism. It is bad enough that most autistic parents would abort another child with autism if they could. I apologize and get punished, someone above engages in even more long standing attacks and receives no reprimand at all.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:58, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I'm not sure if this is canvassing, but he is going to the talk pages of multiple users to complain about this proposed restriction: 2601:249:8B80:4050:6D3B:D5BA:1BFB:F4C9 (talk) 18:41, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
  • This whole process involves denying me of any right to defend myself and punishing me for even trying. I aplogize. I strike my comments. It is not good enough. People are demianding I be silenced forever. I am going to strive to keep my voice alive as long as I can. It is all I have.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:44, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• As this goes on people make more and more puntative proposals. They seek to silence me and restrict me and exclude me. This whole process is unfair. Even more unfair is the kitchen sink, punish someone for a behavior not at all related to what was brought up. The issue was not that I was making too many contributions, the issue was that I made them in a harsh and uncivil way. I have apologized for them and stuck them. If Wikiepdia was at all fair and just that would have caused this to close and no one would try to punish me. I have corrected the problem at hand. This is truly an unfair and unjust tribunal that seeks to silince and punish people.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:53, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Comment - is there actually a rule or guideline that is broken when someone votes in a lot of AfDs in a short space of time? I can't see why this is a massive issue. The decision as to whether the article is deleted or not ultimately comes from the closing admin, who will weigh up the strength of the arguments presented. If it were simply just a vote count then, maybe, I could see an issue but it isn't a vote count. Users have every right to post '*Delete - a non-notable xxxx' or '*Keep - meets WP:GNG' and not expand on that if they wish. That is their right as an editor to make that comment and a closing admin has every right to ignore that comment if they wish to do so. Again, I'm struggling to see why this would warrant a sanction. Spiderone 19:06, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• Yes, WP:BLUDGEONing is a form of WP:Disruptive editing. It's true that robotically making eighty "Keep" !votes per day at a rate of two per minute could have a similar impact in the opposite direction; this would also be disruptive editing, and I would absolutely support a daily limit on AfD participation for someone who did this repeatedly over the course of years. The issue is that JPL is doing this explicitly toward the end of drowning out and discouraging "keep" !voters, and engaging in WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior as well as incivility to other editors despite having been warned multiple times. jp×g 19:22, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose any sanctions whatsoever. JPL has been punished enough. They have accepted that they were in the wrong and have apologized extensively, I don’t see any real reasons for any further sanctions. A warning should suffice. Celestina007 (talk) 19:13, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• Extensive apologizing is great, but I'd prefer if he stopped doing it in the future, which he has said many times in this thread he is unwilling to do. jp×g 19:22, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Stopped doing what? Accusing people falsely of sexism by lieing about edits done by someone 8 years ago. Oh wait, that was another editor who you are not trying to sanction at all. Or maybe it is calling on people to try to publish in various print locations character assasinations attacking another editor. Oh wait, that is another thing that I did not do, but the person who did it is not facing any santions. Nope, the general rule seems to be John Pack Lambert must be punished because no matter how much we say otherwise we deem him an evil person that we want to silence and restrict as much as possible. Then we will use the fact that we have imposed one restirction as a way to attack all his behavior forwever in the future. The process is now punishment in itself. The fact that I admitted that I was out of line will now be used to silince and punish me in the future.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:39, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment The arguments about the number of votes in a day are not at all worth considering. Different AfDs call for different amounts of participation. Some AfDs have openers who have made a very clear case of discussing the existing sourcing, and have shown through before. The high count from the other day involved a very complex issue, and I have apologized for that. I have tried to address the issues at hand. I am not sure what elese I can do. Do people really expect more of a contribution on an article discussion like Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Adarsh English Boarding School. This is a very clear case of Misplaced Pages:Verifiability being violated. Sourcing to an institutions own website is not sourcing to secondary sources which is absolutely required. In some ways it seems that bringing up and demanding that this super core principal of Misplaced Pages is followed is being treated as a flaw. True, we rearely have as such slamdrunk failures of notability with biograpies, but with schools we have them so often it is truly discouraging. Biographies have a slightly better track recrod. There are very few unsourced biographies or biographies only sourced to a website that is controled by the subject. Controlled by the subject's employer is a different story, and sourced only to non-reliable sources we see a lot, but completely unsourced articles or articles sourced only to a website controlled by the subject seem to be more common in schools than anything else. I have apologized for the actual issue that caused this to come up, and have removed the ofrending edits. So why is there this desire still to punish.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:32, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support broadly and open to modification. For example, an AfD on an article he has created might be exempt from the limit. This is not a punishment, any more than it would be punishment to limit someone to a maximum number of drinks in an evening if you know that they have a problem. The goal is to tone down the battlefield mindset, and the sheer number of AfDs that Mr. Lambert is concurrently handling seems like it could drive even Mr. Rogers to incivility. Perhaps this is not the ultimate reason, but it does seem like the best good-faith conclusion. I would also consider either counting comments at an AfD towards the daily limit, or limiting Mr. Lambert to a single comment per day for any given AfD where he is participating, for reasons that I believe should be obvious to anyone reading this.

  I would like to see Mr. Lambert engage in constructive discussion where he listens and considers the perspectives of other editors, and really this ought to be a goal for all of us, if someone were to reply that I need to put more effort into doing the same thing, I would readily agree. I believe that this proposal appears to be a reasonable step towards this goal. Hyperion35 (talk) 19:36, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

  • Lie. You want to punish me because I believe that marriage should be limited to being a man woman relationship. So I see no reason to trust anything else you say. You have proposed topic banning me. This proposal is not reasonable. It kills my ability to effectively participate in discussions at AfD. What I would like to see is editors acknowledge that Misplaced Pages:Verifiability is a key principal and means that we should have absolutely no unsourced articles, let along over 50 that have lasted over 14 years. I have apologized for attacking other people. The fact that the above editor has expressed a desire to topic ban me is a clear indication of animus. He has clearly declared he is unwilling to engage in a constructive discussion, and instead has shown he wishes to force other people to accept a certain position on various public policy issues and is willing to use Misplaced Pages as a platform to punish and silence those who hold other views.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:47, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
    • Son, this is exactly the behavior that we are talking about, all in a single paragraph. I did not want to topic ban you, emphasis on the very deliberate tense used. I supported this solution specifically because I thought that it would help improve your editing and reduce the risk of a topic ban. Further, you know nothing about me or my motivations, I have been bending over backwards to offer you advice because I have a cousin with ASD, I have seen his struggles with social situations and I try to help others in similar situations. I genuinely do not care about your views on marriage, as they no longer threaten people like my coworker and her wife, who just welcomed a baby into the world. But most importantly, Misplaced Pages will still be here tomorrow even if we do not delete all the unsourced articles today. Non-notable articles will still be deleted even if you are not there to nominate or vote on them, which I no longer believe that you are capable of doing in a manner consistent with Misplaced Pages's guidelines on civility. Hyperion35 (talk) 20:30, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
      • Now you have falsely attacked me with the lie that my views threten people. This is a false and malicious position. You are the one who is clearly uncil by saying that the views of someone "threaten" others. That is total and complete malarky. It is not a threat to define an instituion in a way that focuses on raising children. Marriage worked for thsousands of years and to treat me the way you do for supporting the definition of marriage that was accepted in every society until the 21st-century shows true wrongheadedness. You have clear bias against me, all your attempts to say otherwise are just plain rubbish. I did not threaten anyone, but you have tried to silence those who hold political positions you do not agree with.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:37, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose:
  1. Editor 1 makes 100 articles in five minutes.
  2. Editor 2 AFDs 100 articles in five minutes.
  3. Editor 3 votes delete on all 100 nominations in five minutes.
  4. Editor 4 votes keep on all 100 nominations in five minutes.

I do not support restricting any one editor in the above hypothetical while not doing anything about the others. 1 is "building the encyclopedia", 4 is "rescuing articles", but 2 and 3 are "disruptive"? No way. Levivich /_hound 19:51, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I am not sure I am allowed to make any comment on this without being accused of being uncivil. I will try anyway. Evidently it is because "building the encyclopedia" means increasing the total number of articles in the encyclopedia, without any consideration for any other factor. That does not make sense at all.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:55, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

@Levivich: Like I've said, I endorse similar sanctions against anyone making massive volumes of zero-effort, driveby "Keep" !votes. I'll show up on this noticeboard to support them if they're proposed. What I object to is allowing deletion processes to turn into shoot-em-up games where any attempt to provide a reasoned argument will be instantly swamped by hordes of people robotically !voting "keep" or "delete" on every open discussion (because look, the other side gets to do it, it's not fair!). It's a Red Queen's race that can easily be avoided by enforcing a bare minimum of effort from discussion participants. jp×g 20:22, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

@JPxG: I hear you and we share the same goal. But why focus on JPL alone? It's a solid analytical point about the "vote rate" (votes per minute or vote timing) and how that leaves no room for a proper before search. But before is for nominations not participants; there is no rule that participants must perform a before search prior to voting. Second, was JPL's vote rate so much higher than other editors, in those same set of 72 AFDs? I see other copy-paste votes when I review that set. Is the quality of JPL's votes so much worse than other votes, even in that same set of AFDs? I see "keep clearly notable" and other similar votes. Is JPL's match rate so much worse than anyone else's? If we want to have a rule that participants should perform before searches prior to voting in AFDs, OK. If we want to rate limit noms or votes, OK. If we want to kick people out of AFD who have too low of a match rate, OK. But let's not hold one editor to a standard we don't hold other editors to. JPL may not be following best practices but he's not violating policy and his votes do no harm whatsoever. Levivich /_hound 20:39, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Levivich You are correct that the number of votes, in and of itself, is not the problem. What brought us here is the behavior and content of those votes. The proposal to limit his AfD votes was suggested based on the good-faith assumption that participating in too many concurrent AfD discussions might be one cause of his behavior. I believe that we can call it a consistent standard that when an editor starts comparing people who vote differently at an AfD to Jim Crow segregationists, then there is a problem. And while Mr. Lambert apologized for that inappropriate behavior, he has continued to showcase battleground behavior, bludgeoning, failure to AGF, incivility, at the very least, with comments like these. You may be right that the proposed solution is not related to the problem, but it was an attempt at avoiding what may be the inevitable alternative, either a ban from AfD, a temp siteblock, or both, since this behavior appears to continue. Hyperion35 (talk) 21:06, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) A passing comment, and not a slight. I have no slights on anyone (and re. Celestina, I totally concur with your comment in a higher subsection that all is forgiven and all is understood). It's nearly 6am here, and I've been making a real attempt to sleep for the prior two hours, but it's a messy matter at the best of times. Here one issue is that I feel driven to check my laptop, and when I do, I come back to the sense that JPL is personally trying to blame or insult me and that there's an emotional intensity way too high to comfortably handle. I believe JPL is sincere and motivated and cares a lot; if I didn't believe that, I wouldn't be supporting this, I'd just be dismissively waving my hands at the whole thing. I'd like if this could all be "we're entirely confident he understands", but...would JPL-related ANI threads be started every few months if he did? I don't want JPL to be dragged to ANI every few months, I want him to be a contributor at AfD who's a respected part of the place's ecosystem. I think he's gotten to this point because he believes, sincerely, he needs to !vote at that rate for his opinions to be recognized and valued -- but ten !votes with strong rationales are weighed much higher than eighty "not notable"s (or eighty "notable"s). I still sincerely think that if anyone were to step up to mentorship it'd be a valued role that could bring major accomplishments...but if we could wish mentors into existence we'd have a different project. Still. Perhaps I can wish. Vaticidalprophet 19:54, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support. The bulk nominations by Coin were a good faith error and I have good faith they won't be repeated. The insinuations of racism by JPL were also a violation of civility, and definitely need to stop, but are not really the main issue. The reason we keep seeing JPL brought back here is his habit of reacting to AFDs with his initial reaction from the first few seconds of looking at the nomination and maybe also sometimes the article. If throttling the number of AfD comments per day is what it takes to stop that, and get him to participate productively in AFDs rather than writing quick-take comments that everyone soon learns to ignore, then that would be a good thing. If it's insufficient to address the problem, then maybe we need to think about a complete topic ban. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:57, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
  • The above is what I mean by kitchen sink attacks. The editor acknolwedges that the issue at hand was resolved, but still wants to punish me.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:08, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
    • I have no interest in punishment. The outcome I would like to obtain is more in-depth contributions to AfDs or, failing that, fewer shallow hot takes. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:21, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
      • If you really wanted that you would make a proposal that addressed that issue directly. This is just puntative. Especially since the discussion had nothing to do with that at all, you guys just snuck it in on a matter that had to do with incivility, which I have both corrected and apologized for. So yes, this is punishment.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:30, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
        • User:Johnpacklambert, you are in a hole. Stop digging. I don't know how this is not yet clear to you. Drmies (talk) 02:12, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
        • If you really wanted that you would make a proposal that addressed that issue directly from what I can tell, that is the intent of the above proposal. You can still comment on AfDs, and ten !votes per day is not an insignificant number. I'm sure if after a few months, the quality of your !votes has improved, people would likely not object to the restriction being lifted. Elli (talk | contribs) 02:26, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
• Comment It was not my original intention, but per this edit, I no longer believe that John Pack Lambert is capable of constructively contributing to Misplaced Pages in a civil manner. I now reluctantly support a full topic ban from XfD for 2 to 6 months, in the hopes that he will take a step back, reflect, and gain some perspective. Hyperion35 (talk) 20:42, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
  • So now I will be punished for exercising my political rights and support proposition 8. This is the editor who brought up the LGBT issue, and proposed a total and complete broad topic ban. For calling him out in this mean spirited action, he is now doubling down on it. Yet there is no proposal at all to punish the person who brought up 8 year old issues and attacked me on them. This whole thing is getting out of control and ruder and ruder as we go. It also all goes to kitchen sink issues. Where one issue is brought up and but people bring up unrelated issues and then punish you for it.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:45, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support, reluctantly but emphatically. I pride myself on my ability to stay away from the dramaboards, but here I feel obligated to weigh in. I am not, in any sense of the word, an inclusionist. Nor am I anti-autistic, anti-religious, partisan, punitive, part of a cabal, or given to personal attacks. But I firmly believe that, aside from blocking, supporting deletion "is the gravest and most delicate duty that called on to perform." And despite healthy measures of patience and good faith, I cannot conclude that JPL is doing the necessary legwork to justify his scores of "delete" !votes. In addition to the myriad examples already presented, here's another one. AfDs citing the now-deprecated WP:SOLDIER essay were for a while among our most contentious. Not long ago, JPL !voted in five of these in five minutes: 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. In each case, he !voted to delete. Not a single other editor reached that conclusion: even the most ardent deletionist supported at least leaving a redirect behind. Instead of addressing this rather obvious possibility, JPL simply gave canned one-sentence justifications that showed he had done zero research. That's not surprising: it's impossible to assess notability in sixty seconds. JPL's refusal to see that, in my view, suggests that he does not have the best interests of the encyclopedia at heart. He instead reacts as if this is a scene from The Trial, stooping to unjustified accusations, personal attacks, and bludgeoning. The offer of ten AfD !votes a day is very generous. So many editors get by every day without even approaching that limit. The fact that JPL sees it as akin to zero shows that he still fails to take seriously the issues being raised here. That fact leads me to support, at a minimum, the very moderate, very reasonable proposal presented here. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 21:10, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Why is deletion a more serious issue than article creation? There is no logical reason to hold this view?John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:40, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
    • An erroneous article creation is much, much, much more easily remedied than an erroneous AfD. Substantive (i.e. not procedural) reversals at DRV are almost unheard of. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 21:43, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
    • And this to me is the very definition of a grandfather clause. Unjustified deletions can be reversed. It also ignore the fact that 70 articles having existed for 14 or more years without sources shows that unjustified creations are not well regulated. We have had total hoaxes survive over 5 years.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:01, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support as a bare minimum, although I question JPL's competence at AfD at all, seeing as how, according to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Pani, he apparently believes "we do not keep articles without sources" and does not seem to accept that if sources can be found, an article should be kept. I only hope that his identikit votes are ignored by the majority of closing admins. P-K3 (talk) 22:08, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
  • You are ignoring the verifiability guidelines. That clearly states that we should delete anything that is not sourced. Sources are the key. I have never argued to delete an article when actual reliable sources have been specifically listed in a deletion discussion. However my reading of the verifiability guideline seems to clearly indicate the sources really should be put in the article. It also makes no real sense to mention them in a deletion discussion and not put them in the article. I am not arguing that we need links to the sources. Sources do not have to be on-line. However we need clear references. That is clearly what verifiabilty says.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:32, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
    • John, the verifiability policy states that material lacking a reliable source may be removed (emphasis mine). It does not state that unsourced articles must be deleted. That all articles must be sourced does not mean unsourced ones must be deleted – Misplaced Pages is a work in progress, and sources can always be added later. – Rummskartoffel (talk • contribs) 22:52, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
    • Nowhere in our verifiablity policy or our deletion policy does it say that we should delete an article that is not sourced. An article for which sources do not exist will fail our notability guidelines, but the only way to determine that is to look for sources, not just vote to delete on the lack of sources in the article as it stands. P-K3 (talk) 23:12, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
    • Actually, you did exactly that, several times within the span of about 40 minutes, at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Map-based controller and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/External flow, and in the same span Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Dantapura waved away sources that you could not possibly have read or considered in that length of time, given your AFD contribution rate analysed at the start of this discussion. Your grudging retraction at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/External flow then proceeded to ask how you could be expected to be "clairvoyant" about a pointer to a book with an entire chapter on the subject that was right above your first discussion contribution. Uncle G (talk) 00:04, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
    • No, that was reacting to the sources that were added to the article. This is all unfair that I am being threatened with we everything including a total ban from Misplaced Pages, and yet the person who engaged in no analysis arguments to speedy keep faces no sanctions. The only fair conclusion is that Misplaced Pages has a grandfather clause that default says any article that exists is treated as presumed notable unless we prove otherwise. At least that is what it feels like when those who favor deletion are put under microscopic scrutiny for their every action but those who favor inclusion are allowed to make arguments with no sources with impunity. I went though and revised a huge number of deletion votes. Yet no one gives me credit for that. I really, really went over and above to correct the issue, yet I am still being punished. This is totally unjust.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:14, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
• Comment the above shows that no contribution goes unpunished. People even find ways to criticize my contribution related to David Leavitt. There is no room in the world for praise. Only criticism.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:16, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose- This is just an "inclusionist" power grab and excessive punishment for someone who has already apologized. It is at least 10 times easier to add a low-quality article than to get one deleted.--Rusf10 (talk) 15:51, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per Levivich (our inability/unwillingness to treat editors equally is of some concern) and Rusf10 (who, while speaking robustly, makes an informed point wrt agendas, albeit those perhaps yet unspoken...) ——Serial 16:23, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

No

Very simple. ☺

I said it above, and I'll say it again: what I want is not banning, nor restrictions. I want Johnpacklambert to put more effort in, and I think that xe can. I don't have a magic administrator button that gets people to actually do the research at AFD, so that we get something that is cross-checked by multiple people. Somehow that's missing from MediaWiki. But none of the administrator buttons that I do have seem right. The edit button gets me trying to talk Johnpacklambert into approaching AFD with the same approach that well-valued contributors do. Do the research; show that you've done the research; and apply Project:deletion policy correctly, not out of a sense of frustration about how much utter dren there is here. Find out whether sources exist and evaluate their depths and provenances, because that's what deletion policy and notability are all about. If they do not, make a good case showing what you did to find them. If they do, cite them. If you see others cite them, check them out, and collaborate with other people by doing things like transferring them from the AFD discussion to the article. And if you see a bad article, fix it by doing the research and writing.

I speak as the person facing an 18-year-old mountain of utter rubbish on top of an article in its very first revision in 2003 screaming to get out at Responsibility assumption (AfD discussion). There's an awful lot of this. Postal orders of Bangladesh (AfD discussion) was one person's personal experience placed into the passive voice to give it seeming authority, and false on its face. (Clearly, someone, possibly a lot of people, know what was claimed to be unknown.) But zero effort at AFD only makes things worse. We learned that with the schools thing. We learned that with many others as well.

Uncle G (talk) 20:34, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment The comparison I made makes sense if you understand I was saying that people were trying to apply a grandfather clause to preserve unsourced articles that had been on Misplaced Pages a long time, and then if you understand what the historic origin of the term grandather clause is. I think that linguistic issue has escaped some commentators, so they clearly do not get what I was saying. I was saying that I thought people were trying to apply grandfather clauses, no more and no less. That does not lessen the incivility of it, but I think it would cause some people to actually understand what I was saying. I was saying I thought those I was reacting to were trying to apply grandfather clauses. Everything else was built on and allusions to the term and its historic origins, that was the sum total of my meaning.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:02, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
  • As I have said I recognize that my statements were uncivil. I get the sense that some did not understand what I was saying about grandfather clauses.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:03, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
    • This doesn't seem to have any relation to the comment you have typed it as a response to. Are you sure you put this in the right section? jp×g 21:06, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
      • It is meant to be a general explanation of the comments that caused people to open this putative process where it is only after I both fixed all the things directly related to the discussion heading and removed the offending statements did anyone even try proposing a punishment. I was reviewing some of the earliest comments and it was clear that people did not at all understand what I was saying.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:35, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Yes, I understand why you might not have seen how other people would react to this, or realize the connotations of what you said. That's a separate issue. Hyperion35 is very upset by this, and I don't think that you are making it any better, because you're not seeing how xe would react to being called a liar, which you should not have done either.

    But there are two parts wrong to what you did. You've said some things, here and originally, that are truly upsetting to people. (Me? I got called someone hiding xyr identity by an account named after an identifiable public figure the other day. Possibly not as upsetting as xe thought, since the fact that I assert that people should not evaluate what I do here based upon what I might claim about myself on a user page came up in Project:Requests for adminship/Uncle G and Project:Requests for adminship/Uncle G 2 16 years ago. Being called all sorts of things happens. But the "dirty -istas" namecalling is wrong, in any form, "back to 1935!" or otherwise. One day I'll write up the history of that properly, although Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Dream Focus#Proposal regarding DreamFocus has something important on the subject. It is a truly sad story of how a joke that was never true has been translated into something that people seriously, but quite wrongly, believe.)

    The other part is just rocking up and rapidly making comments at AFD by looking at the article and doing nothing else, not one scintilla of research, research that you would put into something that you nominate. Worse, you did it on mass nominations where the nominator didn't do that, either. How do you think that that's going to work properly? No-one checks, everyone looks at the articles and makes superficial judgements, and we both lose genuine subjects and keep non-subjects. Think about it. You're one of multiple checks. You have to do that job properly. You want people to write articles properly? Well people have to participate in deletion discussions properly, too.

    Uncle G (talk) 21:42, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

  • There's a little more on the history, and another of my little green boxes, at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Article Rescue Squadron#Statement by Uncle G. Uncle G (talk) 22:14, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Comment I am being threatened with much more severe restrictions because I will not sit back and let people engage in character assasimation against me. I have a right to defend man/women marriage. It is the bedrock of a society that properly sees marriage as focused on raising children. My holding this position has caused someone to call from a topic ban. This is a way to build into Wikupedia bias. They then tried to pretend to hold another position, and now they are talking about banning me completely and totally from Misplaced Pages. I both apologized for my uncivil remarks and removed them. In the process above people are trying to punish me for standing up for my views.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:41, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• I think it is truly unfair that I am being threatened with punishment for defending someone who was trying to apply verifiability from someone who was trying to silence them. I have over and over again apologized for my uncivil response. I am not going to sit by and let someone argue that my political views should be grounds to limit my participation in Misplaced Pages. That is just wrong. I also find it truly objectionable that false accusations of sexism against me are allowed to stand.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:50, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
  • As you already know, though, xe was actually getting Twinkle-happy and not doing any research, so couldn't have known whether things were verifiable. Applying Project:deletion policy involves looking for sources and failing, as it says right there in the policy and has done for a long time now. It even says "thorough". Again, think about that. How were you in any way thorough? How was the nominator? Neither of you were. You weren't defending anything. You were following zero effort with more zero effort. How does that make you better than the people you are saying aren't putting effort into writing? Be better than this. Uncle G (talk) 23:18, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Comment If Uncle G really wanted to improve the quality of AfD he would do something about the people who try to argue that we should continue to defer to subject specific guidelines that have been shown to in no way reflect the likelihood of a subject passing GNG.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:06, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• I am tired of Hyperion5 patronizingly calling me "son". I am just plain tired of how the whole attack John Pack Lambert for every vote in AfD by him which with I disagree goes. Especially odd is the treatment of me as someone to be punished because I am not willing enough to consider leaving redirects.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:32, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

  I have asked them to stop. Barkeep49 (talk) 03:17, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

• Anyone who regularly participates at AfD is bound to recognize JPL. They have indicated earlier in the discussion that they really value participating in the process. I'm glad to hear that because we don't have a surplus of editors willing to participate. However, I do have a couple of observations based on the many discussions I've closed that JPL has participated in. Sometimes while reading the discussion it seems that JPL has only considered what other participants have said and not the article itself (let alone other sources not included in the article). I would hope everyone reads and considers an article before participating at an AfD and assume JPL does so and that this thinking is simply not reflected in their final comments. I'm not sure what JPL's process is before participating in an AfD discussion, but the rate at which he participates gives an appearance that it is not fully considered. I think the proposal above to limit the number of times he participates is really just a substitute for saying "we need more high quality participation from JPL at AfD". And so that is what I would like to see JPL commit to doing. I would hope that there is thought and care behind his participation in discussions and so it would be helpful if that was demonstrated in how he !votes. I would love to see JPL bringing new ideas and perspectives to the discussion more frequently. I'm not touching on the inappropriate comments made, beyond this sentence, because I believe JPL's apologies and I would hope they know that future such comments could lead to a block or a return to ANI neither of which I'm guessing they want. In the end, if JPL can go a step further when writing his !votes I think that would do a lot to assuage people in this discussion. At that point he would simply be another frequent somewhat one-sided AfD participant; just as we see with other such people (whether keep or delete inclined) they'll never be without controversy but there also won't really be consensus to limit their participation either. Barkeep49 (talk) 03:17, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

  +1. Probably the most reasonable and fair comment in this section. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 07:23, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

• I've only diagonally read much of the preceding drama (since I do not like drama). What I do agree with is that care and effort should be put into commenting at AfDs, just as in any other discussion. I'm probably closer to the "deletionist" end of the scale myself (there's too much fancruft, etcetera); but when I occasionally go through AfDs and notice JPL's comments they are more frequently than not very brief and symptomatic of other issues as pointed out by others above (and too frequently in roughly the same neighbourhood as WP:AADD). Whether there are any effective steps to be taken (beyond engagements of good will and future improvements) is a good question (issues about SNGs being misused by other editors; et al. notwithstanding). If this issue has already been pointed out in the past I'd argue some more muscled suggestions could now be an option (80 !votes in a single day hardly gives reason to keep the "!" in front of "votes"...). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 04:36, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
• I would put myself in the same camp as Uncle G, I really don't see a point in banning someone from voting. Be it JPL or someone else. The only thing I can ask for and press for is simply to ask JPL do more research into why he should vote that way. Govvy (talk) 09:47, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
• I find myself opposing any AfD restrictions. There were two issues here: a bad batch-nom of AfDs, bad only because work clearly did not get put into them, and a bad response to the batch-nom on JPL's part, ending with a very uncivil remark. The uncivil remark is worth a warning or maybe even a short term block, if we do those for incivility. It's not worth restricting their ability to participate in the AfD process: the harm here isn't their AfD participation, it's their incivility. I agree with Barkeep49's comments above as well, though - the reason we've gone off on a tangent regarding what should be allowed at AfD is because of past behaviour, but I can also say as an AfD/DRV participant that a simple JPL vote doesn't hold a lot of weight in a deletion discussion, especially if there's well-considered keep !votes next to their delete !vote (however, this also imples a well-considered JPL keep !vote, rare as they might be, are worth a lot at AfD.) SportingFlyer T·C 12:36, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
  • a simple JPL vote doesn't hold a lot of weight in a deletion discussion Here's my thought. This has been said several times in this thread. It's been said in prior JPL threads, including by admins who routinely close AfDs. JPL's reason for making these votes, as he's made clear in this thread, is he sincerely believes they're the only way he can have an impact on an issue he considers ultra-important (whether to keep or delete articles he believes inappropriate for the project). By extension, anything that allows this to continue is actively harming his goals. Whether or not those goals are agreed with by individual editors is beyond the scope of ANI. My hope for a situation where JPL is, ahem, restricted to ten !votes/day is that those votes won't be 'simple' ones but well-considered rationales, i.e. things that closers weigh and other people concur with. In other words: that he can actually have the impact on AfD he wants. Vaticidalprophet 13:24, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
    • I disagree with this - that assumes his current overall conduct is disruptive, which it's not - it's just not as effective as it could be, and this is not an AfD issue unique to him. His conduct on the batch AfD nom was disruptive with a grossly uncivil comment made, which is what we should be concerning ourselves with. SportingFlyer T·C 14:42, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
• Comment I have tried to make much more considered and deliberative votes at AfD over the past few hours.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:33, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I would definitely argue that every JPL vote today was constructive and in line with a Misplaced Pages guideline. Spiderone 14:39, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment. This is my anecdotal experience.

I rarely participate in AFD. It's hard work. There's no point at all in either nominating or !voting without putting the effort in.

I recall a couple of AFDs where a nominated article had been not so much WP:REFBOMBed as carpet-bombed. After reading all 30+ citations - in one case I !voted delete; in another, I singled out a couple of citations which I considered RS from among all the cruft, and !voted the other way.

I have among my bookmarks the contributions of a WP:SOCK, whose primary interest was in creating articles about Bollywood films sourced only to WP:IMDb; he could churn one out every 7 or 8 minutes. (Subsequently blocked, so not WP:G5 creations.) I'm slowly working through them when I have the fortitude; only a hundred or so to go. Every one takes 15-20 minutes work to make a nomination which I consider proper. I've saved a couple by a WP:BEFORE search (a stopped clock is right twice a day); other editors have saved another couple at AFD by WP:HEY, finding citations I'd missed. Win-win - either a non-notable article gets deleted or a notable article gets improved. Both results are good for the encyclopaedia.

If anyone wants to improve the encyclopaedia by participating at AFD, they must avoid WP:ILIKEIT and WP:IDONTLIKEIT, and boilerplate !votes - or they're just wasting both their own time and everyone else's. Narky Blert (talk) 17:46, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, this is also one reason why a limit to 10 votes per day does not seem unreasonable. I often browse AfD, but due to the effort involved, as you mention, I skip through a lot of nominated articles (especially cricketers, so many cricketers, why?), and comment only on articles where something about it strikes me as being worth spending the time to track down sources. Hell, just copying and pasting references from multiple tabs into a comment takes up time. Even a delete vote requires taking enough time to be sure that you haven't missed any sources, or that the sources available are not significant. And then it takes time to type up a vote explaining the vote, why it does or does not meet the relevant criteria, or in some rare cases why there might be more complex issues involved (for example articles that fall under WikiProject Medicine, and then you have to explain those complex issues in a non-technical way). Some votes might be easier, of course, for example blatant pseudoscience and fringe articles.

Ten AfDs per week sounds like a reasonable workload, and I can't imagine trying to keep track of more than 20 in a week. And of course, in any given AfD there will be disagreements. Sometimes it's a factual matter or an obvious misunderstanding, other times different editors will just have different good-faith views on what constitutes SIGCOV. It also takes some experience to determine when it is appropriate to add a comment and when it isn't. For example, I no longer interact with editors who wave around WP:THREE as if it were a real rule, it just never ends well. Some AfDs won't create much disagreement at all, others will become dramabombs or even thermonucleardramatic warheads. Dealing with too many at a given time is just inviting burnout and the resultant snappish incivility in anyone.

I don't know that a limit of 10 per day will address the underlying problem that stems from a bizarre battlefield view of the process (something that seems to be overlooked in all of this), but it seems like the best compromise to deal with the symptoms. Hyperion35 (talk) 20:04, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I still find it very offensive that the false and malicious attack built on mischaracterizing editing I did 8 years ago has been allowed to stand. That attack is extremely offensive. Something needs to be done about it.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:30, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

• Start a separate AN/I thread about it? 2601:243:1C80:6740:6D3B:D5BA:1BFB:F4C9 (talk) 23:54, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

On legislating improvement

So, JPL has had a great spree on AfD since the beginning of this thread, making !votes with much more care and thought than usual, and I'm happy to see it. He'a also clearly in a lot of distress, about which I've previously expressed my sympathies. I've been looking at, responding to, and !voting alongside his recent !votes, and I'm wondering how to make sure this is a persistent improvement such that there isn't yet another JPL ANI in a few months. It's clear that this one got him to seriously reconsider how he came across to other people and make bona fide improvements, in a way that previous threads didn't. I genuinely believe this can be the start of a new age for JPL's AfD participation, but only if it's actually kept up and doesn't go back to "eighty !votes a day of one-sentence rationales" by the end of the week.

ANI wields blunt tools. It's difficult, anywhere on the project, to get and sustain this kind of improvement. The tools we have mostly just tell people to stop doing something -- stop writing about a topic, stop talking to another person, stop editing entirely. You can force a change to how Misplaced Pages looks with these tools. You can't really force a change to what someone thinks of those things, although they might calm down with distance. There's very little that can be done to invoke remorse in a wiki-recidivist. This is human nature. You can't legislate improvement. But we've got improvement here, so...?

I wonder if the solution might be a suspended sentence, so to speak. What if JPL has no AfD restrictions, but they'd be imposed if he goes back to not !voting with rationales? I dunno, man -- I'm dropping into informality there because this is difficult. It's gone as well as it can go, which is to say, nightmarishly awful but at least something good came out. (Ain't that ANI?) Certainly I've seen much worse outcomes. I'd like this to be beautiful. I think it could be. But how can that gold stay? Vaticidalprophet 14:57, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support suspended sentence I would support Vaticidal's suggestion of a suspended sentence, and I would support a suspended ban on voting in AFDs with the exception of articles he has created or contributed significantly to.Jackattack1597 (talk) 22:41, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

User:ElKevbo

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

ElKevbo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Has harassed me and threatened me. He's been warned on four occasions and continually deletes my edits without cause or evidence with an honest reason. Is trolling me and claims he is "collaborating" but is simply deleting my any content I create, even when it is sourced from a third-party. FirstPrezzzz1776 (talk) 08:00, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

• The very first diff that I read when looking for what "threatened me with harm" could be, as that is quite concerning, is Special:Diff/1017720335. Then Special:Diff/1017717230. And conversely Special:Diff/1017384904 and Special:Diff/1014859520. Uncle G (talk) 08:17, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

@FirstPrezzzz1776: you've posted this here, to the dispute resolution noticeboard, and to AIV. Please don't do that. Can you present some problematic diffs, perhaps? Elli (talk | contribs) 08:23, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

And now an IP is reverting User:ELKevbo's changes here. FirstPrezzzz1776 - do you know anything about this?Nigel Ish (talk) 08:39, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I have reverted the IP (It's fairly clear that "a total refurbishment and seismic upgrade to the iconic 28-story Tower" is not only promotional but a Google search suggests that it's almost certainly a copyvio as well) and I will protect it if it is reverted again. User:FirstPrezzzz1776, I have reverted your spamming of other noticeboards and if you continue adding promotional language to articles or abusing other editors I will simply block you indefinitely. I hope this is clear. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 09:18, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

• As Uncle G notes (citing this diff) but does not make explicit (so I will), it's a little unbelievable that the OP would come here after making a personal attack as egregious on the user of whom they are reporting. You’re pathetic, small and a worthless editor. Go climb into a hole so the world can be a better place — is block-worthy, in my view. El_C 11:28, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

• El C, I agree with you. The comment before they modified it is even worse. The only reason I haven't just indeffed already is that I couldn't see that anyone had given them a warning for PAs, or a link to the relevant policy. (Not that I think that anyone should really needs to be told that What a complete A-hole you are is unacceptable...) GirthSummit _(blether) 11:35, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment as El C has rightly said I think it is OP with the problem here, just a quick look through edit history/TP it is clear that they will fight and abuse any editor who disagrees with them. I would support a block for OP on this basis. Tommi1986 11:40, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

• My analysis of this situation is this: FirstPrezzzz1776 starts off by edit warring on this article, which is then reverted by ElKevbo. FirstPrezzzz1776 then violates WP:NPA by posting this onto ElKevbos talk page., and then subsequently files this report against ElKevbo. This revision might have been FirstPrezzzz1776 reverting while logged out, but I am not entirely sure. In regards, I feel as if a block is in order. Sincerely, Deauthorized. (talk) 12:37, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

• FirstPrezzzz1776 was blocked on Commons for copyvios (02:09, 24 March 2021), and then proceeded to create a sock (06:00, 24 March 2021), FcktheWikiGods, to recreate the deleted images. While this occurred on the Commons, the person at the keyboard does not change with project space. Indeed, this is further demonstration of the issues noted above: recreating problematic content out-of-process (effectively edit warring); incivility (FcktheWikiGods = Fuck the Wiki Gods, presumably admins enforcing policy); the propensity to "fight and abuse any editor who disagrees with them"; etc. Related to consideration of character and ability to edit productively, it seems worth noting that FirstPrezzzz1776 claimed "I work for the university and attended as a student" when they thought that would assist restoration of deleted images, but claimed "I am not affiliated/work for the University" (and multiple times: , , etc.) when questioned about conflict of interest. It seems FirstPrezzzz1776 will say or do whatever suits them in the moment. Эlcobbola _talk 13:28, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

• In light of this, I have indeffed, noting also that this is a m:Global lock candidate. El_C 13:47, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
• I may be a bit late to the party here at ANI, but I have been attempting to help and educate FirstPrezzzz1776 since they first showed up at the helpdesk in March after being blocked on Commons. They seem resistant to guidance and exhibit an ownership attitude towards that article. In light of today's actions, I agree with blocking them.~ ONUnicornproblem solving 20:53, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

User:BANNERSINGH & gross BLP violations

BANNERSINGH (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), I don't think there is much to state here. Take a look at this contributions, some of which they reverted themselves but will require revdel. Clearly WP:NOTHERE, see the following diffs (nsfw btw), Special:Diff/1017749021, Special:Diff/1017723582, Special:Diff/1017735126. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 11:43, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Blocked, and I've tagged the picture for deletion on commons. GirthSummit _(blether) 11:51, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Uploader seems to be another account, the image that they placed on the page of Bin Laden also seems to be some non-notable individual's selfie which I find especially concerning. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 11:56, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Tayi Arajakate, hopefully the admins on commons will consider those other uploads there. In fact, I see that Elcobbola, active in the thread above this, is a commons admin. Any chance you could take a look? The account on commons is 'Randistan'. GirthSummit _(blether) 13:52, 14 April 2021 (UTC) (Groan - botched template, fixed ​ GirthSummit _(blether) 13:54, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. I've deleted the image and blocked the account. In case it will be useful for reference in the future, in addition to BANNERSINGH's addition of the referenced Randistan image, behaviour includes:

• 07:47, 14 April 2021 - Randistan uploads c:File:Dhruvrathee.jpg;
• 09:51, 14 April 2021 - BANNERSINGH adds it to Dhruv Rathee;
• 11:35, 14 April 2021 - Randistan uploads c:File:Sushantrandi.png ;
• 11:38, 14 April 2021 - BANNERSINGH adds it to Mahesh Bhatt;

That these accounts are related quacks. (Note that, for the moment, BANNERSINGH has not attached to the Commons, so I can't run a check; Randistan has not attached to en.wiki, so a check cannot be run here. Overlapping attachments on login.wiki and meta.wiki are stale for BANNERSINGH, so a meta/Steward level check would not be helpful.) Эlcobbola _talk 14:32, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Elcobbola, thanks - I won't trouble the stewards then. Looks like it's all wrapped up for now, thanks. GirthSummit _(blether) 14:42, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Vandal IP

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

86.174.27.230 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is adding vandalism as well as arguably actual libel in their edits to a new article that was recently moved out of userspace: Vaush. The IP seems to be WP:NOTHERE, and seems to be there solely to attack the subject of the article. I've requested page protection for the article because they're not the only ones doing this as the topic apparently has attracted some kind of concentrated attention. Eik Corell (talk) 12:58, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I've already semi'd the page independently of this report (by way of WP:RFPP). Will check for revdel candidates more closely right now. El_C 13:04, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Yup, revdel'd everything. El_C 13:05, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Found a few more, but GN beat me to it. I think this is wrapped up, for now. El_C 13:11, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

WP:NOTHERE IP user keeps changing part of an article to a non-neutral point of view

This user User:2405:204:a499:633c::14ef:80ac keeps changing part of an article to something that is not a neutral point of view. looking at the history shows this user is clearly not here to build an encylopedia as they keep doing the same edit multiple times. Blaze The Wolf | Proud Furry and Misplaced Pages Editor (talk) 14:36, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Blaze The Wolf, blocked. Consider using AIV for that sort of thing. Cheers GirthSummit _(blether) 14:45, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I have no clue what that is. Blaze The Wolf | Proud Furry and Misplaced Pages Editor (talk) 15:41, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Blaze The Wolf, WP:AIV is the shortcut for Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism. Cullen Let's discuss it 16:03, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Ah ok. THank you! Blaze The Wolf | Proud Furry and Misplaced Pages Editor (talk) 16:48, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Blaze The Wolf, I see that you have Twinkle enabled - an AIV report can be made using that tool, chose 'ARV' from Twinkle's drop-down menu when you're on the user's talk page, choose 'AIV' and fill in the form. GirthSummit _(blether) 13:25, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Oh that's really helpful! THanks for telling me that's a feature! Blaze The Wolf | Proud Furry and Misplaced Pages Editor (talk) 18:56, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Found a user with a Username violation

Block (censored username) for violating Misplaced Pages's Username policy. LooneyTraceYT (Where it never goes out of style • contribs) 17:35, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

User:Fatass blocked. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 17:55, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

LooneyTraceYT You may report inappropriate usernames at WP:UAA. 331dot (talk) 17:58, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I have to say this has aroused my curiosity, as I am stunned that it would've taken over 20 years for someone to think of choosing this as their username, and for some reason I don't see a log entry for this account being created. Beeblebrox (talk) 05:46, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

It didn't take 20 years to choose this as their username, it just took (nearly) that long to be noticed. They predate the user creation log; their user_id (201296) suggests they registered sometime in early 2005. —Cryptic 05:56, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Phew, my faith in humanity is restored. --JBL (talk) 16:41, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I do have to ask. How did you even find this? Canterbury Tail talk 16:44, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I mean the block is rather pointless, but also harmless I suppose. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:59, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I didn't notice the creation date. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 00:38, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

DevilInTheRadio

DevilInTheRadio violated clearly expressed WP:CONSENSUS at Talk:Julius Evola#Evola as "antisemitic conspiracy theorist": original research, conflicting sources and quote without reference and it seems like a violation of WP:NONAZIS. Diff: . Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:40, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

It's not contentious to say that he was an anti-Semite, unless one happens to secretly approves of his anti-Semitism (as a few Evola apologists clearly do). It's not contentious to say that the Protocols are an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory; anyone arguing otherwise needs a WP:NONAZIS block. There are already plenty of other sources in the article about his anti-Semitism, there are sources about his endorsement of the Protocols, and the lede is just accurately summarizing all this info in the most succinct and relevant way. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:00, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Quoted by Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:48, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I (DevilInTheRadio) did not. I do not have an issue with the label anti-semitic conspiracy theorist mentioned in the article since Evola did write on the subject, but to place it in the first line among his occupations is intellectually dishonest. It was not his occupation, and he only wrote on the topic sparingly (and disagreed with many of his contemporaries - See "Tre Aspetti"). I will not have Tgeorgescu insinuate I am an anti-Semite just because I dispute his political motivations in placing the label there so prominently when it shouldn't be. Again, my issue is not with the label, but with the placement among his occupations. It should be discussed where it is actually appropriate, such as regarding his links to Nazi Germany or his research topics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DevilInTheRadio (talk • contribs) 18:08, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

You have watered down those clear statements about him being an antisemitic conspiracy theory peddler. So that alone is a violation of WP:NONAZIS. Also, you are clearly acting against WP:CONSENSUS.

I have also reported a WP:3RR violation by DevilInTheRadio. Tgeorgescu (talk) 18:18, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

The clear statement is still there, just in a more appropriate context. I have explained my case multiple times now. Leave your political motivations out of this and stop reverting my edits regarding his recently published work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DevilInTheRadio (talk • contribs) 18:21, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Do you realize you have violated 3 (three) different rules? The real question is if you have any business at all editing Misplaced Pages or you should be site banned.

They have a history of violating WP:NONAZIS, see e.g. .

Their own intention is very clear at . Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:12, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

• For clarification, WP:NONAZIS is not an official policy, just an essay (although I'm of the opinion that it SHOULD be a policy). That said, it seems like DevilInTheRadio's problem isn't with labeling Evola an "anti-semitic conspiracy theorist," but with putting it in the first sentence. They might just not be familiar with how we typically organize those labels. It's not uncommon to put such labels in the first sentence when people are heavily associated with them (see Alex Jones, Richard B. Spencer, and Renaud Camus, among others). In Evola's case, the label should be in the first sentence, or at least the first paragraph. DevilInTheRadio, a good rule of thumb is if somebody is prominently known for something, it should be said in the first couple of sentences. ThadeusOfNazereth 19:21, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

  It's also worth noting here that the lede already describes him as both a "fascist intellectual" and "the leading philosopher of Europe's neofascist movement," so there's clearly a precedent for him being described in such terms. As to DevilInTheRadio's point that he wasn't "prominently known for his antisemitism," I'd point out that A) Fascism and antisemitism go hand-in-hand, and B) a Google search for "Julius Evola" turns up several articles describing him primarly as antisemitic , . ThadeusOfNazereth 19:37, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

@ThadeusOfNazereth: Thanks for the clarification, you are right about my intentions. I disagree with your last statement though, he wasn't prominently known for it, since it was a minor aspect of his writings. He was prominently known for being a (fascist-adjacent) philosopher, esotericist and occultist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DevilInTheRadio (talk • contribs)

Wow, wait a bit: your intentions should have been tempered after I asked you politely to read WP:NONAZIS, explained to you that you violate WP:CONSENSUS, and gave you a formal WP:3RR warning for edit warring. You may no longer pretend you were ignorant of those requests, but you have still chosen to pursue your edit war despite all my advice and all my warnings. You simply wasted too many occasions of repenting of breaking our WP:RULES. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:48, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

The edit warring is clear and actionable should it continue, but it is rather inappropriate with as few data points in Devil's history to rush call the edits they did on that article and the other example you gave (the only examples I can see in their history) to call them out as "whitewashing" and a ban needed under NONAZIS. Bringing articles to what one feel is conformance to NPOV though a BOLD edit (of which removing or moving a label they don't believe is well sourced would fall under), assuming they were reasonably unaware of prior talk page history that established consensus for the language, is definitely not whitewashing, and there's no pattern to show this being their editing approach. Obviously, their continued changes were inappropriate but simply from an edit warring angle, nothing else; we have nowhere near sufficient evidence to bring a NONAZIS claim here (this is the general danger with that essay, it can lead down the road of MacCarthyism if we're not careful in its application). Hopefully, judging by edits since, Devil's stopped edit warring (only change to the article was to readd a new general book, non-contentious) but they should be aware to be careful with bold edits in the future. --Masem (t) 00:35, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

@Masem: They are actually past 3RR, see . If I did not explain them the reasons at every step, then yes, I could be blamed for rushing to WP:ANI. But I offered them enough chances to better their ways, and they refused those chances. Tgeorgescu (talk) 00:43, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, that 3RR is actionable, as I've stated. However, no further edits have been done to the article since, so its hard to say if disruption will continue or not, so whether action on 3RR is needed or not is not clear. But there is no question the line was passed. --Masem (t) 00:48, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Site ban

• Support as proposer. Tgeorgescu (talk) 18:24, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
• A site ban based on what? The result of their edits was moving "antisemitic conspiracy theorist" further down the lead and framing the label as a viewpoint rather than a fact, plus adding one of Evola's books to the collection of works. This proposal seems precipitous. You each reverted three times, so any edit warring sanction would apply to you equally. Fences&Windows 18:48, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
  • @Fences and windows: According to WP:3RR reverting more than 3 times is not allowed. Reverting precisely 3 times is allowed. Tgeorgescu (talk) 10:48, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
    • Their initial edit doesn't count. You reverted three times; they reverted you back. It's number of reverts, not number of edits. Also, "The rule is not an entitlement to revert a page a specific number of times." Fences&Windows 11:20, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
      • @Fences and windows: Their initial edit was a revert (deleting someone else's contribution to the article). Tgeorgescu (talk) 12:15, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

User:Remitbuber

I'm growing concerned that whilst this user has made a lot of constructive and positive contributions to our encyclopaedia, they seem to find it difficult to respect consensus. See the multiple times that he has edit warred over the speedy deletion tag at Adrián Macías, as just one example. They have received a number of messages regarding paid editing/COI, which they have chosen to ignore. They also vandalised an AfD discussion, which caused a considerable amount of confusion for a number of other editors. Admittedly, that discussion was started by a sock so it didn't exactly get off to a great start. This is an editor with a lot of potential but I feel that they are starting to become a net negative due to some uncooperative and tricky behaviour. They were warned that I would start a discussion here if they continued to behave in this way. Spiderone 21:01, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

• It seems like the best thing for Remitbuber to do here would be to take a step back and add those sources to the article on Adrián Macías, rather than vandalize and disrupt the AFD process. ThadeusOfNazereth 21:10, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
• They have been almost single-mindedly promoting Nicolás Atanes and Virus Matemático, adding it where they can (cf. Mathematics, Math crisis, Adrián Macías, and Blas Méndez) while completely ignoring what other editors have said. They have also uploaded dozens of blatant copyvios to Commons. Remitbuber is pretty clearly WP:NOTHERE. — MarkH₂₁
• If Remitbuber does not come clean about their COI, and does not respond to fellow editors before they go back to editing about/promoting their favorite topics, they will be blocked. User:MarkH21, did you report those things on Commons, and what happened? Drmies (talk) 01:02, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
  • @Drmies: I just tagged the individual files with copyvio notices and their sources. Almost all of them have been deleted but a few are still tagged and awaiting admin review, you can see most of them in the last few sections of their Commons talk page. — MarkH₂₁ 11:04, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Comment - please see this edit where User:Remitbuber has vandalised this discussion to make it look like I've said something completely different (now reverted). Spiderone 09:02, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Yep, Remitbuber is clearly seeing these discussions and warnings. Rather than engage with them, the user is just directly modifying other editors' comments and recreating deleted articles. A block is warranted. — MarkH₂₁ 11:04, 15 April 2021 (UTC); revised 12:45, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• I came across this earlier as I have been cruising the new pages feed. Virus Matemático is one of their creations. Until I fixed it, it had the novelty approach of using the template "infobox conflict" and its parameters "leadfigures2=Adrián Macías| causes=Low social interest in mathematics| goals=Raise awareness about the importance of mathematics". I thought that was pretty creative, but not the correct use of the template. I was wondering if they had been warned about their math zeal yet, and visiting their talk page I see they have had 11 warnings so far. It seems like a block would be a good idea, given the refusal to stop promoting and also to discuss the issue.--- Possibly (talk) 09:06, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• IPs have now joined the fray: 176.12.82.159 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) directly modifying the text of a PROD nomination by CommanderWaterford and promoting Nicolás Atanes. I think there was also an IP that was removing the A7 tag at the first now-deleted iteration of Adrián Macías. — MarkH₂₁ 12:45, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Also now fairly obvious socking from Alicia220978 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). --JBL (talk) 14:48, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
  • OK. That account is a match with User:Remitbuber, so that's simple: indef CU blocks for both. In addition, Remitbuber is blocked for disruptive editing, an undeclared COI, a refusal to communicate, and et cetera. Drmies (talk) 15:15, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

User with the sole goal of doing what need not be done

On User talk:Gexajutyr you can see messages from seven editors asking Gexajutyr to stop adding pointless pipes. The user has been directed to WP:NOPIPE, MOS:NOPIPE, and WP:NOTBROKEN countless times on their talk page and in edit summaries. Yet the user continues. The closest they ever got to engaging in a discussion about their disruptive behaviour is stating they are "fed up with that NOTBROKEN nonsense". Bizarrely, adding pointless pipes is all this user does. You are welcome to try your luck reasoning with Gexajutyr. Surtsicna (talk) 21:06, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

To be fair, adding pointless pipes isn't all this user does; they also remove useful pipes. Certes (talk) 22:14, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I've partial blocked them so they can no longer edit articles until they discuss the matter here. We are all expected to respect consensus even when we do not agree with it, and it's clear a number of users have tried in good faith to explain the situation to this person and they simply don't want to hear it. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:26, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I'd like to ask this be held open for a while, this user often takes several days off between edits so they may not even know about the block yet. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:00, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Commenting to keep this open longer. Fences&Windows 18:56, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I apologize for what I have done. It was never meant to upset you. It is possible that I do not improve the articles but you also do not improve them by reverting my edits. As in the Canada example: I think there is a reason why the article name is Parliamentary system and not Parliamentary democracy. But I can stop if it is so important for you. Gexajutyr (talk) 19:20, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

@Gexajutyr: Do not modify other people's comments as you did here to Certes's, even if it ultimately doesn't change the substance of the comment. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:26, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

User:Gexajutyr, can you say what you meant by "fed up with the NOTBROKEN nonsense"? What is the 'NOTBROKEN nonsense' exactly? EdJohnston (talk) 19:36, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

According to Misplaced Pages:Redirect#Do not "fix" links to redirects that are not broken (I use the direct link, not the redirect Misplaced Pages:NOTBROKEN), it is absolutely prohibited to avoid redirects that are not broken. But it is nonsense. Links to redirects are annoying. But I can stop with such edits if you find them disruptive. Would you please unblock me? Gexajutyr (talk) 19:53, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Can anyone please unblock me. I will stop with "bad" article edits. Gexajutyr (talk) 20:56, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Can you please stop with your refusal to answer my request? Gexajutyr (talk) 22:32, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Surtsicna, why did you revert my edit? I removed unnecessary piping. Gexajutyr (talk) 23:42, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I made a mistake. Sorry! Surtsicna (talk) 23:51, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Ping Beeblebrox now Gexajutyr has responded. Fences&Windows 18:01, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm a bit underwhelmed at this response. I'm going to go ahead and unblock, in the hope that it is now understood that you can disagree with a policy, you can argue to change it, that's all fine, but deliberately, repeatedly ignoring it is not. Misplaced Pages uses consensus as it's primary decision-making method, and consensus can change, so if this is really that big of a deal, Gexajutyr can feel free to propose such a change at the appropriate venue. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:29, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Gexajutyr, I am concerned that you may still not understand the problem. Here and here you bypass redirects in a way that is not only pointless but breaks the grammar of the sentence by using the singular where a plural is required and vice versa. Certes (talk) 22:40, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Guillermo Alonso Martínez Espinoza editing without summaries, sometimes adding incorrect business info, but possibly ref spamming as well

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rosguill suggested I reach out here as a last resort. Guillermo Alonso Martínez Espinoza has been adding a lot of sourced and unsourced financial information and other info to business articles, without edit summaries. The info is sometimes incorrect. He has been asked by me and others on his talk page to add summaries and was blocked before, but persists. With this recent edit ], he incorrectly added former historical components of a new company as its subsidiaries. I'm also seeing him often using macrotrends.com as a source for financial data. It's a paid research site with no identifiable contact info, and so I wonder if this is a strategy to drive traffic to that site. Here are some recent related edits. ], ], ]. Not all the info is wrong, and not all is unsourced (if you don't mind the excessive linking to macrotrends.com that borders on ref spamming), but his activity and inconsistent accuracy on highly visible business articles is disruptive. The few times he has responded on his talk page make it appear that he isn't a native English speaker, and that he doesn't understand the criticism he is facing. ]. The clincher for me is that he was just updated to an extended confirmed user, yet doesn't show he deserves it. TimTempleton 23:40, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

• Who has time for this. Drmies (talk) 01:06, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Soumya Sekhar Biswas

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Soumya Sekhar Biswas has had a history of deceptive edit summaries . They then did it again at Pahela Baishakh. . --Firestar464 (talk) 04:00, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I respectfully suggest that this is an over-escalation. I too have noticed this user's misleading edit summaries and was going to their talk page to discuss it when I saw this. I have provided more detail to the user to clarify concerns and let's see how they respond? Agreed it cannot continue. Mark83 (talk) 05:53, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Edits by HM2021

• HM2021 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Good morning. I am requesting assistance/advice on how to deal with HM2021. User has a history of multiple plagiarisms and questionable editing (mostly related to either unsourced content and films announcements that don't line up with WP:CRYSTALBALL), that has been annotated on user's talk page, but I am afraid it is a WP:IDHT case where the user does not respond to the community inputs and continue contributing the same way. I was planning to let it go for some time, but then I checked user's other contribution and there is the same pattern. Please advise on how we can encourage the user to listen and change his behavior. Thank you! Kolma8 (talk) 06:53, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• The biggest problem here is communication. They have over 4,000 edits, have never used an article talk page, and have a total (if you disregard removing warnings from their talk page) of four usertalk edits. They also still don't seem to understand copyright policy despite receiving numerous warnings and aving many files deleted and edits reverted. And (I don't particularly care, but I know it annoys many people) they mark all of their edits as minor. Black Kite (talk) 10:01, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

  ARe their edits done on the mobile app? If so then the problem might be WP:THEYCANTHEARYOU Blaze The Wolf | Proud Furry and Misplaced Pages Editor (talk) 18:57, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

  No.— Diannaa (talk) 19:17, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

  The user made edits to his talk page in the past and recently. Kolma8 (talk) 09:04, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

  • Thanks for pointing out the minor edit issue. I left them a msg on the talk page to educate about that. Kolma8 (talk) 11:53, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

• Incidentally, you didn't notiy them of this discussion - I have done so. Black Kite (talk) 10:01, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

  Thank you. Kolma8 (talk) 09:03, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Disruptive edits by user:Queen NawalM5

User Queen NawalM5 has repeatedly removed referenced information from the page Majid bin Mohammed Al Maktoum and replaced it with conflicting unreferenced information and personal commentary. Please could someone protect the page from these edits. Regards Wyatt Tyrone Smith (talk) 14:27, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Just passing by, but for convenience: Queen NawalM5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Seems like a pretty clear case of NOTHERE; added material consists of ramblings about fake news, and editors who disagree with this user are branded "enemies of the Royal Family". Lennart97 (talk) 14:56, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Blocked indefinitely. Partial block. As mentioned on their talk page, being new notwithstanding, a dispassionate discussion that is grounded in policy is expected on the article talk page, or access to that page, too, will be revoked. El_C 15:08, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

They've done the same thing on French Misplaced Pages, if anyone also edits over there. Fences&Windows 23:33, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I was brave: https://fr.wikipedia.org/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Requ%C3%AAte_aux_administrateurs#Queen_NawalM5:_fausses_modifications. Fences&Windows 00:04, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Disruptive edits to name fields on infoboxes

50.224.168.146 has been adding incorrect names to infoboxes. Most of the edits look like the work of a confused new editor, but there have been a number of BLP errors (i.e. assigning unknown ?invented? nicknames for celebrities), blatantly incorrect edits (i.e. Assigning Nintendo as the creator of a PC-only game), and blatant vandalism/edit tests (e.g. "spunky anal destroyer") that make me wonder if this is just a troll. I left a note on the talk page but there was no response except further identical edits. It looks like EdwardUK and K6ka have tried to correct these errors but there was no resolution. Should I be directing this editor to the Teahouse? Could someone look into the matter? -Thibbs (talk) 17:35, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

you didn't notiy them of this discussion - I have done so— Diannaa (talk) 19:15, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Is the {{u}} template insufficient to notify the person? -Thibbs (talk) 20:57, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

No. The instructions say "The use of ping or the notification system is not sufficient for this purpose."— Diannaa (talk) 21:21, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Lack of collegiality with User:Drassow

I found this edit problematic: "Black" with a capital B is widely accepted in newsrooms across the US and the UK, and on Misplaced Pages as well. (Never mind that capitalization is not grammar.) Turns out it seems they're doing that kind of thing to wrong a right, as here (again with a false appeal to grammar). So I left them a note, and then find their user page, which says "You're looking at this because I made you butthurt, aren't you?" -- that's the kind of thing Instagram trolls put on their profile. I removed that, and explained it goes against the collaborative spirit of our project, and am countered with this, , followed by their condescension on their talk page. Drassow has been blocked for edit warring (over something as silly as thinking a YouTube video is a reliable source) and for personal attacks; I suppose I can't fault an editor for mostly editing gun articles, but lowercasing "Black" is a hallmark of right-wing trolling, and the battleground attitude is concerning. Oh, I see now that this somewhat immature comment on my talk page was removed by User:Apokryltaros (and marked as harassment): thank you. Drmies (talk) 19:52, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• More disturbing diffs: "da chinese dude", about race; this, displaying lack of collegiality and again a race thing; this callous dismissal of a shitty comment directed at JzG; "cry about it" in response to a 3R warning from Jpgordon. Drmies (talk) 19:59, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• An editor that pops up occasionally, makes a few minor edits, yet nearly every time they make a few edits they manage to abuse or belittle someone, and don't seem to care either. Doesn't really sound like a net positive to me. Black Kite (talk) 20:11, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• For being so semantic about the definition of grammar, surely you'd realize that Chinese is a set of ethnicities and not a race, no? I don't see what has you upset about noting "da chinese dude" as the edit when adding... a photo of a Chinese dude. Either way, I merely pointed out your edits do not adhere to MOS and corrected them. You should not pretend and feign the victim when you came and edited my page without permission, I merely left a notice on it not being welcome. I don't edit your user page for the fun of it. Lowercasing black is a hallmark sign of adhering to the MOS and consistency of the article and its neutrality, the fact that you have to try and dust off items years old should stand as a testament to the desperation you have to get your way on an incorrectly formatted article. You're being a hypocrite on accusing me of "battleground attitude" by shoehorning in your desired version without actual reasoning being given. Drassow (talk) 20:29, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Drmies, capitalisation of Black is like capitalisation of Deaf by the Deaf community: it's a self-descriptor which is widely and appropriately used in respectful discussion of issues we outside the community can empathise with, but not experience. Reverting it is not evil, it is a stylistic preference.

The defiant response to the edit warring ruling is much more concerning. As we all know, three reverts is a limit, not an entitlement, and this looks like a clear attempt to use first mover advantage to get non-consensus text into a controversial article.

The "butthurt" comment is also classic WP:BATTLE behaviour, and the dogmatic statements about the MOS are entirely inconsistent with an editor who has just over 300 edits, total.

So my personal view based on talk page comments and content edits is that this user is WP:NOTHERE/WP:RGW. This discussion has already wasted more time than the benefit to the project I can see in their contributions. I would suggest a final warning at the very least. Guy (help! - typo?) 11:01, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Guy, I disagree with the first point: the various news organizations that use it as such are hardly headquarters of any Black community... Drmies (talk) 15:59, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Drmies, I use the capitalised styling myself, but it's hardly universal nor is a preference for non-capitalised, sanctionable. But the rest of what that editor does? Hooboy. Guy (help! - typo?) 18:19, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I would define lack of collegiality as Drmies actions of editing another's user page and then making a weak AN report about it - then trying to shore up this weak report by dredging up "disturbing" diffs from a year or more ago. I've personally experienced this same "attention" from Drmies - he seems to do this type of WP:BATTLEGROUNDing when he gets a target in his sights. I encourage admins to tell him to pound sand on this one. -- Netoholic @ 20:14, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

It is misleading to describe it as "dredging up from a year or more ago" when it's an editor with such low activity as Drassow - that diff was within their last 30 edits. The ratio of problematic edits is rather high.-- P-K3 (talk) 20:21, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Hey, Netoholic, long time no see. How's WP: WikiProject Men going? --JBL (talk) 21:11, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Changing the case of Black seems like a mistake I would easily do, but I doubt I'd stir drama over it if reverted. Speaking of which, I only remember of Drassow because of previous interaction on this noticeboard that also wasn't very constructive. —PaleoNeonate – 11:26, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

More disturbing diffs: "da chinese dude", about race; It's a dude and the photo was taken in China. I really don't see the problem here.

this, displaying lack of collegiality and again a race thing; I see no lack of collegiality here and Drassow apologized for their error.

this callous dismissal You're just linking the same diff again!

of a shitty comment directed at JzG; The edit summary is out of line, otherwise the comment is a bit abrasive but I don't feel that should be sanctionable.

"cry about it" in response to a 3R warning from Jpgordon. Again a bit abrasive but doesn't seem sanctionable. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 11:52, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

"You're looking at this because I made you butthurt, aren't you?"

Let us not forget we have an actual edit to look at too, one that I propose runs counter to the idea that we are a collaborative project. Drmies (talk) 02:18, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I've removed it as trolling. Obvs it'll be restored by this uncivil, proto-racist paid editor, but at least then we can then cut to the chase and C-ban him. The algorithm is thus: WP:RGW + WP:NONAZIS = WP:NOTHERE. Then we can all get back to what we were doing; otherwise, we're just wasting time. ——Serial 11:13, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't mind that it was removed, and the Yo mama phrase, slightly hidden and coated in pseudo-plausible deniability needn't remain there either, given the nearly universal insulting punch of maternal insults. Then again, such trolling comments could also be allowed to stay on a user's talk page, in my opinion. They show whom one's dealing with. Such editors will draw more scrutiny regarding their edits. If their editing is fine, who cares, if it's not, all the better that they advertised their assholishness and drew attention. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:07, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

But Sluzzelin, I dropped a few diffs of not-fine editing. Drmies (talk) 00:50, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Of course, Drmies. I guess I meant it's better to deal with what's happening in article space, or talk page discussions. Removing stuff from a user page is less important unless it's really crass or violating BLP policies etc. No biggie, and the removal of the trolling post doesn't bother me at all. ---Sluzzelin talk 17:37, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

@Serial Number 54129: You are accusing Drassow of being "proto-racist" and "paid". I assume you have a source for this (the joke on Drassow's user page doesn't count) otherwise you could be looking at a piece of approaching curved Australian wood. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 11:52, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

@Alexis Jazz: Yes! No. No fucking chance. But thanks for letting us know that you, err, agree with their sentiments. ——Serial 14:25, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

@Serial Number 54129: You're saying I am proto-racist now? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 15:30, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

@Drmies: I don't think you should have edited their user page. My talk page is categorized in various joke categories like Category:Wikipedians who are "out to get you" and/or your garage band, I hope you're not going to remove those. You should have left that to an uninvolved admin. over something as silly as thinking a YouTube video is a reliable source A YouTube video can be a reliable source, it all depends on the uploader. In this case the uploader was القناة الرديفة للجبهة الوطنية للتحرير which translates to "The auxiliary channel for the National Liberation Front". I have frankly no idea what authority this outlet has nor which claim it was supposed to support, but they do have 90K+ subscribers so the possibility that this could be a source for something would at least have to be considered. On the "main" issue I am very confused. If black people are now Black people (I can't fathom why but I'll roll with it for the argument), shouldn't white people in that case be White people? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 11:21, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

If black people are now Black people (I can't fathom why but I'll roll with it for the argument)...

Sigh. Assuming for the sake of argument that you're not being coy for effect, it's been widely discussed. Here, from last July, the Associated Press and the New York Times explain their changes. --Calton | Talk 11:32, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

@Calton: I don't think this is really a thing where I live. Having read your links, I still disagree and think we shouldn't follow them. We're not going to capitalize "white" and we shouldn't treat "black" differently. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 11:52, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

You’re the guy who was talking about a curved piece of Australian wood, right? Duck. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:35, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

@Horse Eye's Back: Care to explain? My opinion is illegal? Wut? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 15:41, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

What does legality have to do with any of this? ANI is not the appropriate venue to share your personal opinions on race. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:48, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Alexis Jazz, this is a collaborative project, and editors should thus act in a way that promotes collegiality. "You looked at my user page because you're butthurt" is pure trolling and antithetical to a spirit of collaboration. User pages (which aren't the user's property) are there to indicate certain things about the users, their interests on Misplaced Pages, whether they're admins or whatever and what articles they're writing. Not to insult the passer-by. That you (not "we") aren't going to capitalize "black" is your choice, but saying that "white" should be treated the same is...well, it's colorblind in the worst sort of way, in my opinion, but that's just my opinion: there is no agreement that it should be treated in the same way, and if you want to start a new RfC on it, be my guest. I hope you'll ping me for that. Drmies (talk) 15:56, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Horse Eye's Back, you warn me of boomerangs with no clue of why I should be expecting one. I gave my opinion on capitalization and there's no more to be said. There is no right or wrong here, just a choice of style. @Drmies: you should have invited Drassow to a discussion, but you decided to edit Drassow's user page which you could have guessed wouldn't go over well with Drassow. You could have asked Drassow to change it themselves and if Drassow wouldn't respond to such a request you could have asked for an uninvolved admin here. Editing someone else's user page is generally not done. The WP:User pages guideline "Users believed to be in violation of these policies should first be advised on their talk page using {{subst:uw-userpage}} when immediate action is not otherwise necessary." seems like a good thing to follow, and I don't believe there was a need for immediate action, less so by an involved admin.

No, we are not going capitalize "white", some supremacists have apparently been doing that for some time. If they hadn't it could be a consideration. It would still be odd, and capitalizing black is odd. The AP article argues "These decisions align with long-standing capitalization of distinct racial and ethnic identifiers such as Latino, Asian American and Native American". Latino comes from latinoamericano which comes from Latinoamérica which is Latin America which is a name. Asian refers to Asia which is a name. I'm not sure if Native American should be capitalized. When considered as the name of a specific group (as opposed to a sum a parts of "native" and "American") it could be. But "black" seems far too diverse for that. If "black" is now synonym for "African-American", well, perhaps, time to update the dictionary then. NYT says "white doesn’t represent a shared culture and history in the way Black does, and also has long been capitalized by hate groups", but I wonder if black/Black people would agree. Does an African-American from the Bronx have the same shared culture and history as a Nigerian? Does a black/Black person in the UK have the same shared culture and history? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 16:57, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

You can take that up with the AP and the NYT and explain how they're wrong. Drmies (talk) 17:43, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

They're not wrong because there is no "right" or "wrong" in language, but I think it's a bad idea. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 20:24, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

^^^The second paragraph^^^ WP:NOTFORUM. ——Serial 17:05, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

If "black" is now synonym for "African-American", well, perhaps, time to update the dictionary then. I take it you haven't actually checked any dictionaries yet: . Note both the definition and the capitalization. "Black" is an identity and if you think otherwise, you're behind the times and out of synch with the rest of the English-speaking world. Levivich /_hound 17:10, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Deaf, blind, gay, autism and cancer are all identities depending on context. Should we capitalize all? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 17:40, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

None of those (except maybe gay) are identities. (Cancer and blind are identities?! Wtf?) But anyway, we should capitalize them if the dictionaries capitalize them. Levivich /_hound 18:02, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Since there's so much discussion about capitalizing here, I figured editors might want to see MOS:PEOPLANG. Relatively recent compromise consensus is that we should use either black/white or Black/White consistently within an article. Switches from one style to the other need explanations and talk page consensus. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 17:15, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

FWIW I don't think the current draft of PEOPLANG accurately reflects consensus. I can't speak for anyone else but I have no intention of following that. "Black and white" is fine because it's what the RS do. A no-consensus RFC result doesn't change that. Levivich /_hound 18:02, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Consistency of capitalizing black/white is less important than what RS are doing. Most RS are using Black and white. That's what we should do, too. —valereee (talk) 19:46, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I am on team Black/white for sure, but if you want to debate the MOS, you should go there. I disagree with the idea that we should stylistically follow what RS are doing. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 19:49, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Firefangledfeathers, do you have a rationale for not following what RS are doing? Because that's generally how we decide what to do. —valereee (talk)

Sure! My understanding is that Misplaced Pages should follow its own Manual of Style, regardless of other publications following their own style guides. Obviously, I'm not arguing that we shouldn't follow RS when it comes to content, just style! Firefangledfeathers (talk) 20:04, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Alexis Jazz, whether you or I think it's consistent isn't really the question. The question is what RS are doing. —valereee (talk) 19:53, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I read that MOS discussion about PEOPLANG and I'm pretty sure it reduced my IQ by a couple of points. I don't see any reason to prefer that over RS, thanks. Black Kite (talk) 20:15, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

@Valereee: Misplaced Pages doesn't have to adopt the style of RS. You may argue that Black/white being inconsistent doesn't matter, but what I fear more is that this kind of thing only adds fuel to the fire. I fear we (Misplaced Pages) may push some who are on the fence about these issues towards.. less reliable sources. If Black/white was an obviously linguistically logical it would be different, but I simply can't defend Black/white. I can defend Latino/Asian, I can defend Black/White/Gay, I can defend black/white/gay but I can't write a convincing rationale for this. And if you can't defend a choice, you should refrain from making it. If everybody and their mother capitalizes "black" (like on social media, when writing a paper, etc) we should too. If RS do it but the general public fails to adopt it, I say we shouldn't. Misplaced Pages is written for people, so that's the spelling we should use. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 20:24, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

• I agree that we should follow what RS are doing, because this is essentially a question of content rather than style. (However, what are RS doing? Newspapers often try to launch neologisms, new spellings, or deprecate antiquated terms, etc., but these often do not stick; this particular one (Black/white) also appears rather US-centric to me.) But what's really relevant here: it seems to me that the user Drassow has merely taken the stance that we should follow MOS:PEOPLANG, as evidenced here and here and here, and one must simply assume bad faith to fault them for that. What I do find intolerable is the phrase You're looking at this because I made you butthurt, aren't you? on Drassow's user page, which has been there since since 20 April 2020. Putting something like that on one's user page is basically a personal attack on everyone who has visited their user page since 20 April 2020, and definitely deserves some kind of administrative sanction. Perhaps a 24h block, to have a record of it? Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 21:04, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I would suggest Drassow in general to pick their words more carefully. You catch more flies with honey. (do as I say, not as I do) And Drmies should try to de-escalate whenever possible, they should have realized that editing someone else's user page directly without warning could only lead to escalation and more drama. If there is a need to create a record, a 1 minute block serves the same purpose. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 21:36, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Didn't realize a 1 minute block was possible. That's what should be done IMO. Also, the removal of the trolling by Drmies and Serial was entirely justified, no need at all to discuss that. Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 21:53, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

The shortest preset is 2 hours but if you enter a custom value you could block a user for as little as one second it seems. And justified or not, if Drmies had asked Drassow to do something about it themselves to avoid consequences it would have probably (but we'll never know) resulted in less drama. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 22:47, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

• Valereee, how to write black and white is something the MoS should deal with. I don't capitalize because it looks odd. I'll start doing it if there's consensus to add it to the MoS, but otherwise not. SarahSV 23:24, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

More eyes/patience needed please

Bizarre magic (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) suffers from a lack of sources, lack of watchers, repeated insertions of questionable notability, and links to commercial websites masquerading as sources. I am currently in a discussion with Vwjr (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) on Talk:Bizarre magic, but I think the situation would benefit from more eyes and more patience than I have at my command. Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 19:55, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• Maybe AfD is the next step. Drmies (talk) 20:03, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• I've only just looked at the original edit - it clearly started as a promotional article, and the history since has been a mix of promotion, denigration, and a few blp violating edits which I had to email Oversight about. DuncanHill (talk) 20:17, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

DuncanHill is not being helpful when asked but deleting information. Links to verified sources are being supplied and ignored. When suggested sources are given, DuncanHill ignores and deletes. He refuses to help by researching edits and contributing and instead has started an edit war by deleting again.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Vwjr (talk • contribs) 20:09, 15 April 2021 (UTC)‎

• Vwjr, I don't think you understand what WP:RS says. And I would urge you to stop this edit warring lest you be blocked. Drmies (talk) 20:26, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Citations added. Verified citations added. Publication citation added. Links added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vwjr (talk • contribs) 20:31, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Vwjr What do you mean by "verified citations"? Please explain in your own words why/how the sources you cite constitute reliable sources as Misplaced Pages defines that term. ~ ONUnicornproblem solving 21:14, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Yep. The stuff you are adding, so far as establishing the notability of this term, is quite frankly, useless. User generated content, links to the front page of a website, etc, is not at all useful in this regard. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:16, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

User:CPCEnjoyer and Radio Free Asia

• CPCEnjoyer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) – On Radio Free Asia and Talk:Radio Free Asia:

The account appears to be a single-purpose account that has engaged in edit warring on Radio Free Asia in order to label it a "propaganda" organization. The user has also been casting aspersions on the talk page, accusing Chipmunkdavis of "perhaps intentional" misrepresentation of CPCEnjoyer's arguments. The account's username, also appears to be a derivative of a common meme, and CPC may very well refer to the CPC). The account seems to be WP:NOTHERE and has been engaging in deceptive and tendentious editing practices that include false claims of consensus on the talk page and the restoration of sources that do not actually back up these claims that were being presented in the lead in Wikivoice.

Edits include: 1 2 3 4. 5. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 20:11, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Claims that I have a "single-purpose" account are unsubstantiated. I have only recently made my account and am still discovering[REDACTED] and I believe editing multiple pages at once might be a bit too much to handle. If you feel any "aspersions" were thrown around, I apologize and if the user above-mentioned feels offended then I retract my statement, it truly was not my intention to cause him grief. Regarding the concern of my name, I believe we share the sense of humor, considering your name is derivative of a common vulgar joke "Mike Hawk". The part that struck me most about your accusation is saying that I am WP:NOTHERE, I understand I have not been much active outside the RFA article, but to say that it means that me, a user who has only recently joined the wiki, is not here to contribute to Misplaced Pages is simply a frightening way of thinking of new users, at least from my perspective. Also, I based my claims of consensus on the 2007 discussion which was not opposed. CPCEnjoyer (talk) 20:24, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

To respond in part, a single purpose account is a user account or IP editor whose editing is limited to one very narrow area or set of articles, or whose edits to many articles appear to be for a common purpose. Your account pretty clearly fits this definition. It's also a total misrepresentation to cite a 13 year-old comment on a talk page as current consensus, especially when the article has not called the station "propaganda" in the Wikivoice of a stable lead since 2010. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 20:52, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

On the same wikipage, according to WP:SPATG, in the Number of edits section, it is said that: A user should not be tagged as an SPA just because they only have a handful of edits. As of now I have made twenty contributions to wikipedia, with eleven of them being Radio Free Asia or its talkpage. I know that over fifty percent of my edits being in the same category may seem like I have created this account with the intention of it being a "single purpose account", but I reassure you that it is not the case. As an example I will use your account, over twenty-five percent of your 1192 Main edits are related to China and the Uighurs. Does this now mean you are now a "single-purpose account"? On another note, I agree it was a bit of a stretch to cite a thirteen year old comment as current consensus, I realize it was a mistake on my part, however I have learned from my mistakes and attempted to establish new consensus in the Talk version of Radio Free Asia. CPCEnjoyer (talk) 23:27, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Once upon a time I have only recently made my account and am still discovering wikipedia, said the new editor with a precocious edit history and a userbox on their page that one would never find on someone new to WP. Grandpallama (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 00:50, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I didn't know this at the start of the content dispute, but Radio Free Asia has recently re-entered the news in relation to the Uyghur genocide (), so the sudden presence of a number of new/infrequent editors may be due to this. CMD (talk) 02:44, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Once upon a time I had a thought in my head that made me say it out loud: Perhaps I should learn the policy and rules of Misplaced Pages before doing something that would damage the website and/or break the policy? And I have been going with it ever since. While I appreciate your flattery, some could interpret it as a personal attack, so I would avoid your passive aggressive writing in the future. CPCEnjoyer (talk) 10:26, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

some could interpret it as a personal attack They would be wrong, since I have accurately pointed out that the evidence of your editing history, wikilawyering, knowledge of WP policy/procedure/technicalities, and userbox (and its reference to a onwiki controversy) do not align with the assertion you are "discovering Misplaced Pages". As far as the complaint here goes, you've argued repeatedly (alongside other curiously new editors) at Radio Free Asia to insert material against the consensus, and participated in edit warring there (again, alongside other relatively new editors) to the degree that the page was placed under ECP. Your account's very first edit to Misplaced Pages was to remove sourced information with a misleading edit summary. There are strong WP:NOTHERE vibes, and your unwillingness to listen to more experienced editors at Radio Free Asia or NPOVN is textbook WP:BATTLEGROUND. A TBAN is in order, at the very least, but I'm not encouraged you won't just carry this approach elsewhere. Either way, I support a sanction. Grandpallama (talk) 13:33, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

You seem to have an issue sticking to your narrative. First you claim that I have accurately pointed out that the evidence of your editing history, wikilawyering, knowledge of WP policy/procedure/technicalities, and userbox (and its reference to a onwiki controversy) do not align with the assertion you are "discovering Misplaced Pages". but then you go on and say that I am showing unwillingness to listen to more experienced editors at Radio Free Asia. So which one is it? Am I an experienced editor or a new one unwilling to listen to more experienced editors? You say I am giving off WP:NOTHERE vibes, while clearly exhibiting WP:BITE vibes. I also find it very ironic to claim that I am wikilawyering while trying to do the exact same thing. Your evidence is based on the assumption that everyone who edits Misplaced Pages for their first time does not know the policy, procedures, its technicalities or how to use a user-box(?). Are you saying I should be sorry for familiarizing myself with those things before editing? There is no reason for me to listen to more "experienced" editors when they are in the wrong according to the policy. Seniority does not guarantee you or anyone else absolute power nor infallibility. CPCEnjoyer (talk) 14:09, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

There is no reason for me to listen to more "experienced" editors Read WP:IDHT. When a consensus of users oppose you on the talkpage, neutral users at NPOVN also tell you that you are incorrect, and users at ANI express concerns about your behavior, you need to start listening, or yes, it will end with some sort of sanction. Grandpallama (talk) 16:34, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Not very nice of you to cut your quote short and change the meaning of my sentence. No consensus has been established, hence why the discussion was posted on NPOVN. I have engaged in consensus building, I have addressed all of the issues that the creator of this incident report put forward, I fail to see how that equates to me "not listening". CPCEnjoyer (talk) 17:16, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support NOTHERE block. There is some seriously fishy stuff going on, probably WP:MEATPUPPETRY involving off-wiki forum coordination, regarding this subject. Look at the 3 accounts that replied to me here at NPOVN; one of them is CPCEnjoyer, who absolutely is an SPA, and the other two are the highly suspicious accounts discussed at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/EuanHolewicz432. Crossroads 03:34, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

This ANI investigation was brought to my attention on my own investigation's page (linked above), and since this user has apparently drawn a line between CPCEnjoyer's and mine, I believe I have somewhat of an obligation to contribute here. First of all, I fail to see the supposed evidence or "suspicion" based on a shared contribution to a general viewpoint - do I have a claim on your coordination with Horse's Eye, with Mikehawk10 or Chimpmunkdavis? Of course not, and so I have not attempted to pursue such "lead", because I understand that all of you hold true a different view on the matter and no matter the result of the discussion, the quality of RFA will improve - either it will be restored to a state that I myself (and some other editors) find more reflective of the truth, or the position of the existing status quo will be strengthened (as it already seems to be, with more sources cited in the lead by Mikehawk10). I fail to see how this discussion is negatively impacting Misplaced Pages and therefore I fail to see the point of this charade, notwithstanding the fact that I (obviously) do not know any of the other involved users in an off-Wiki capacity, neither those who argue for or against the changes I support. This entire procedure looks to me like an attempt at "siccing" Misplaced Pages administration (no disrespect meant towards the administration by this phrasing, of course) at people you disagree with and as I stated in my own investigation, this really sours my view of Wikipedian discourse. I don't think CPCEnjoyer was entirely right in making some of the main article page edits and reverts that they did (at a cursory glance, I didn't really analyze the edit date and correlation to talk page), but to claim coordination is based on next to no evidence and I find it dehumanizing and slanderous. This is my stance on this most recent allegation - as for the SPA, NOTHERE claims - these are up in the air and I don't think it's in my position to argue regarding that here. This concerns only the coordination claim. --EuanHolewicz432 (talk) 10:39, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Preposterous. Simply preposterous. But these allegations and accusations with no proof nor substance seem to be the norm at Misplaced Pages, so I am hardly surprised. I would hope that anyone who is not involved in this Radio Free Asia dispute is clearly able to see that this is just an attempt at misdirection and censorship after people like Crossroads are unwilling to discuss for a consensus. The most baffling thing is that I have made my edits and talk page replies before these editors made any of theirs, so I fail to see how I am the "sockpuppet". But I digress, go for it, do your "investigation", I have nothing to hide. Perhaps you should stop and think about whether you are arguing in good faith or witch-hunting a person who you are in disagreement with. CPCEnjoyer (talk) 12:23, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Returning blocked user, sock-puppeting on IPs to harass certain users accusing them of being paid vegans

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A indefinitely blocked user JustANameInUse who was very abusive has been using an IP to harass me and two other experienced users (including @Alexbrn:) complaining that we are paid "vegans" to edit Misplaced Pages on the talk-page of the Saturated fat and cardiovascular disease article‎.

He previously did this on the IP 93.141.106.212 on the Atkins diet talk-page (the IP was blocked for one month), and has now returned on 93.141.106.103 which traces to the same geographic area and same IP range. Returning on IP's to personally attack other editors is clearly a violation of the ban (per WP:SOCK etc). Can an admin please investigate this? Thanks. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:42, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

The editor here is a paid vegan activist, he even said he is in contact with a known vegan activist to straighten out a rumour. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Michael_Greger&diff=1002388477&oldid=1000888854 He is most likely and paid author that hasn't disclosed his employer. 93.141.106.103 (talk) 20:48, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I blocked 93.141.106.0/24 for a month. Who knew you could be paid to be a vegan...who's paying you? The Cows on the ChikFilA sign? CaptainEek ⚓ 20:50, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Don't underestimate the reach of Big Tofu. --JBL (talk) 21:08, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your help. I suspect it is likely that we will see this user back again in the future on the same IP range but one month peace is fine with me. Psychologist Guy (talk) 21:09, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

If he returns let me know and I'll extend the block. CaptainEek ⚓ 21:12, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Using a sock to influence AfD discussion on a paid article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hi, user NeonRoo (talk · contribs) has admitted on their talk page to using sockpuppet account Hapanyc (talk · contribs) to influence the outcome of an AfD discussion regarding Matrak Enterprises (see ). NeonRoo was also paid to write Matrak Enterprises, something they failed to disclose prior to creating the article .

I am not inclined to WP:AGF. --JBchrch (talk) 22:05, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Quick and easy proposal: they're flagrantly and willingly violating our terms of use, they should be blocked indefinitely. TAXIDICAE💰 22:07, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

If a puppet investigation is opened, De Bellissen Benac Margaux (talk · contribs) may be worth including in it; only one contribution to date, at the AfD in question. --DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:22, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Agreed with Praxidicae. @DoubleGrazing: yes it's a good idea, but it would be easier to do it if action is taken against NeonRoo and Hapanyc first (for whom we don't even need a SPI). JBchrch (talk) 09:50, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I created Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/NeonRoo about both accounts. I don't think it'd be easier (or harder). afaik socking goes to SPI even if CU isn't needed (such as in this case). Most importantly, SPI forms a structured archive, which doesn't happen with a discussion lost in the ANI archives. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:02, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you very much ProcrastinatingReader. JBchrch (talk) 10:03, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Original research and potential sock puppetry

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hello, I’m in the middle of an issue at 2021–22 Arizona Wildcats men's basketball team. A user, Smitty Smitty, began by reverting my removal of a blank depth chart on the page. To begin with, a depth chart should be a violation of WP:OR as schools do not release official depth charts and any sources that provide one, it’s either a “prediction” or “unofficial”. I posted on the user’s talkpage advising of it being OR and reverted the change. The user reverted again. So I posted a warning instead the second time, as well as advising against an edit war, which I was afraid was going happen and I reverted the change. So I reverted again. The user then performed a manual revert, which lead me to post another warning and revert the change. I also warned that 1 more edit would violate the 3 revert rule. A little bit later, an IP address then added the depth chart back. Which I reverted. I believe that the IP was the same user, who logged out to make the edit. I reverted the edit, in hindsight, I kinda regret that because that’s my 4th revert. I will leave the page alone while this discussion here is going on.--Rockchalk717 22:40, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• I actually don't think the IP is User:Smitty Smitty, even though it looks very suspicious. The IP, which operates on the 2600.3C2.8280::/48 range from Memphis, has been editing basketball articles for years, and indeed if you go back to 2017, here's Smitty Smitty actually reverting them (they warned them as well). I have protected the article for a week for discussion, although given that Smitty Smitty has over 10,000 edits and has never made a single one to an article talkpage, that may be more tricky. Black Kite (talk) 23:20, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

@Black Kite: Yeah that’s what I was afraid of with this user, but they did respond back it looks like. We’ll see once the protection falls off what happens. I appreciate it.--Rockchalk717 00:01, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Persistent dynamic-IP disruption that appears to be a blocked editor

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I've recently noticed a lot of minor disruption from an assortment of IPs resolving to Bellflower, California. The topic areas are almost exclusively automobiles and professional wrestling. As to the former, a lot of the edits are incorrect vehicle dimensions (), adding unsourced and speculative predecessors/successors (), introducing errors to or otherwise tampering with timeline templates (), and an array of other disruption.

The two main areas of interest align very closely with those of Ninenine99 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who was indefinitely blocked in early March. That account's edits include much of the same misinformation vandalism to dimensions, predecessor/successor disruption, and timeline template vandalism.

A small cross-section of the IPs in question includes:

• 2603:8000:B00:4CF5:FDA1:B2D1:BD4D:682E (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 2603:8000:B00:4CF5:E41A:357B:DF9:5DFA (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 2603:8000:B00:4CF5:E566:F99C:EFB7:B4A3 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 2603:8000:B00:4CF5:2911:11DA:2416:2777 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 2603:8000:B00:4CF5:A062:9741:A91C:3CC4 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 2603:8000:B00:4CF5:E4F2:8AC4:56BF:4938 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

I have come across disruptive Bellflower IP edits long before Ninenine99 was blocked, but they have become more frequent since then, and the account has made edits to articles related to that region of California. It looks reasonably clear to me that this is block evasion. --Sable232 (talk) 23:13, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• These are all in the same /64 block and are therefore the same editor (all contributions here). Whether or not it's a sock, it's disruptive and I have blocked the range for a month. Black Kite (talk) 23:28, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Just out of curiosity, how does being in the same /64 block indicate they're all used by the same editor? I'm not familiar with how IPv6 works. --Sable232 (talk) 23:42, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
    • IPv6 allocates addresses in a different way from IPv4 and effectively the smallest subnet that can be allocated to a single user is a /64, as anything smaller causes problems (and yes that is 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 addresses!). Also, the allocations tend to be more static, so any address in that /64 range is almost certainly the same user over a period of time (the exception being mobile broadband, which can be a bit more tricky). Black Kite (talk) 00:15, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Epictrex in an unusual edit war with themselves

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Epictrex (talk · contribs)
• 2600:1700:7C20:3100:F5F7:E045:3647:41C3 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) IP used April 11 by Epictrex to vandalize talkpages
• 2600:1700:7C20:3100:838:8ECC:B606:E57C (talk · contribs · WHOIS) IP used to vandalize History of Nevada April 15
• 104.3.229.138 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) IP used to vandalize History of Nevada April 15

User:Epictrex, a newer user, had a hard time adjusting to adding references and not violating WP:FRINGE. when working on history and archaeology related articles. They have been warned several times, including these diff, and , but have blanked most of it from their talk page.

• Epictrex had a minor meltdown several nights ago, here User talk:ThadeusOfNazereth#Epictrex, although they self-reverted much of it later, but it is in the diffs of User talk:ThadeusOfNazereth.
• Part of their behavior at that time included logging out and doing this at my talkpage, and then this when reverted. As well as targeting User:ThadeusOfNazereth here. That IP geolocates to Sparks, Nevada
• They quieted down after that. No further activity, until today. Another IP, also geolocating to Sparks, Nevada, inserted this fringe info into History of Nevada, and then was reverted by Epictrex. The material was reinserted by yet another IP, which also geolocates to Sparks, Nevada. Material was reverted by ThadeusOfNazereth, re-inserted by the IP, and then reverted by Epictrex.
• The nearest I can figure, Epictrex is having an edit war with himself using 2 IPs. Or edit warring with two meatpuppets. They have moved from some WP:CIR problems to outright vandalism at this point. I considered filing an SPI, but that's a much more involved process, and I thought maybe the quacking was so loud it could be dealt with easier here. Heiro 23:49, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Users mentioned notified, I have to log off for awhile, things to deal with IRL. Will check back on this later.Heiro 23:51, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I am not at an edit war with anyone — Preceding unsigned comment added by Epictrex (talk • contribs) 23:56, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

• As the other involved editor besides Epictrex, I should throw in my two cents here. I think I was pretty clear at my talk page what the issues were with their erratic behavior. I'm not totally sure how accurate IP geolocation is or whether this is something that would be better off at WP:SPI, but I will say that I think it's really odd that after posting at WP:TEAHOUSE asking how to delete their account and accusing other editors of being abusive, the first edits they made after that were on the History of Nevada article, right when the vandalism was happening. THAT BEING SAID, I don't know that Epictrex was behind that vandalism, and I try to avoid making bad-faith judgements whenever possible. My interpretation of this is that Epictrex is new to Misplaced Pages, probably younger, and doesn't have as firm a grasp of editing as people who've been here a lot longer. Looking at their edit history, they've made constructive edits in addition to what happened at my and Rowe's talk pages. ThadeusOfNazereth 00:09, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
• I'm not involved with any of this, however after seeing what he's done I can say this, (Redacted) as after seeing how he acted on Heironymous Rowe's talk page he went from calm, to very angry rather quickly. Now as for their edits, they haven't made purely unconstructive edits. For example, their most recent edit on History of Nevada is constructive. They stated that the information added does not have any evidence supporting it (no citation) which is true. Just thought I"d give my opinion on things. Blaze The Wolf | Proud Furry and Misplaced Pages Editor (talk) 13:32, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Yes, removing that would seem constructive. Except for the part where it was Epictrex themself who used 2 different IPs to add the information to begin with. And then reverted it with their named account. As noted above, several days ago they vandalized 2 talk pages with an IP. They then did not edit for 4 days. Then on the 15th an IP added the nonconstructive material to History of Nevada. Material that is virtually identical to material added into other articles by Epictrex. Within 1 minute Epictrex logged in and reverted. Then a second IP re-adds the material. Epictrex then reverts it again. All 3 IPs mentioned geolocate to the same place. Those IPs are Epictrex. Heiro 14:07, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

  I'm really not a fan of speculating about people having "mental disorders" because somebody got frustrated on Misplaced Pages. ThadeusOfNazereth 14:56, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes I was just going to post that. Please refrain from commenting on other people's mental states and diagnosing mental disorders unless you are a mental health professional or the user has self declared something. Even so it's not something we should be discussing, discuss the edits not the editor. Canterbury Tail talk 14:58, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I have placed a warning on Blaze The Wolf's talk page regarding the personal attack. See User_talk:Blaze_The_Wolf#Personal_attack. I do hope this sort of behavior ceases. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:07, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

CRZZY.R3X

• CRZZY.R3X (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Repeated personal attacks (1, 2, 3) at User talk:Theroadislong. In future, can personal attacks like this be reported to AIV?--- Possibly (talk) 02:17, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Indefinitely blocked as not here to build an encyclopedia, and for excessive use of exclamation marks (just kidding!) Cullen Let's discuss it 02:25, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

“And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Five? A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head.” - Terry Pratchett, Maskerade. --Jack Frost (talk) 10:10, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

CRZZY.R3X is a friend of mine, he’s kind of a troll-type, I tried telling him your going too far, and he’s gonna get blocked, but he didn’t listen. WikiMakersOfOurTime (talk) 16:07, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Heffner000

Heffner000 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has consistently added poorly sourced material to BLP articles for months, for which they have received numerous notices. They have recently edit warred 5 times in 24 hours to add a poorly sourced "controversy" section to the TommyInnit article despite 3 different users reverting them, and in spite of them being given an edit warring notice and asked to read and understand our RS and BLP policies. I haven't taken this to AN3 as a temporary block won't help with their long term CIR issues and lack of understanding of Misplaced Pages guidelines. Thanks Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:58, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I would like to say that i have never added information without citations and proper sources and have always fact checked before doing any edits. The accusation of me editing false information for months is wrong as i didn't edit the TommyInnit article until yesterday. When Hemiauchenia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) brought up any problem with my edits i immediately tried to rectify it and make it better but for some reason that was not enough. Hemiauchenia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) kept calling it poor information even after i cited sources and even screenshots. All the three different users who reverted my edits had no good reason except saying it wasn't 'noteworthy' to include. Heffner000 (talk) 04:22, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

An tweet from an unverified account and a YouTube video from an unverified account aren't reliable sources, and don't show notability. You need reliable, third-party sources that talk about the subject to prove its notability. —El Millo (talk) 04:38, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Heffner000 has reverted again and readded the section diff which is cited solely to tweets. Hemiauchenia (talk) 04:41, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Seeing the user's responses in their edit summaries, they either can't understand the point or they aren't willing to. —El Millo (talk) 04:49, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I gave them a block to stop the edit-warring, anything more will take a longer discussion. Liz 04:54, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

What this looks like to me is a new user still trying to figure out RSes, recording something that seems very important to him, and getting stressed out/digging in his heels at the sense people are attacking his contributions. I suspect half this site started similarly. I suspect dragging such a user to ANI as immediate escalation (I know there was a BLPN thread, but it could have at worst been localized there) isn't going to turn someone who already felt stressed and unheard into a long-term contributor. Vaticidalprophet 06:06, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

This was not "immediate escalation" I provided numerous edit summaries and links to policies to the user prior to making this report. Even when an uninvolved user reverted them they still persisted. I think that "they either can't understand the point or they aren't willing to." sums it up. Ultimately a user who wants to edit BLP's but does not follow the guidelines is someone who needs administrator attention. Hemiauchenia (talk) 06:16, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

UPE by User:Jonh takuma

See talk page, has submitted many promotional drafts about people who would normally be eligible for A7. Noah 13:03, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

• I moved the one mainspace article they had pushed to mainspace back to draft. I also placed a {{uw-paid}} notice on their talk page. If they continue to edit as before without responding to the paid warning, a block is appropriate. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:19, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

There was already a {{uw-paid3}}. Noah 15:29, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

• Thanks. My first pass on their talk page didn't pick up on that. Blocked for failure to abide by WP:PAID after being warned. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:00, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Mass nomination of articles to WP:AFD by Parthhalder

Hi, I have created articles and expanded redirects of some popular Bengali TV and film actor and actress based on their WP:ENT and WP:GNG. They are Debottam Majumdar, Rukma Roy, Malabika Sen, Ratna Ghoshal and Anushree Das. I have attached WP:RS like Anandabazar Patrika, The Hindu, The Telegraph (Kolkata), Times of India, Firstpost, The Indian Express, Hindustan Times, Cinestaan etc. The Hotstar, Youtube are provided additionally to verify the claims of work done only and per WP:RSPYT that says Content uploaded from a verified official account, such as that of a news organization, may be treated as originating from the uploader and therefore inheriting their level of reliability.. But Parthhalder has engaged in mass nomination of articles started/expanded by me and putting false allegations of being connected/or doing research work. I declare that I do not have any WP:COI or being WP:UPE. Please help, this is really posing as a big discouragement to contribute positively to Misplaced Pages. I started those articles because I find their works quite notable and they are popular in eastern India and Bangladesh. Please help. Thank you. Run n Fly (talk) 13:21, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

@Onel5969, Timtrent, and Titodutta: as they helped and reviewed the pages earlier. Thank you.Run n Fly (talk) 13:27, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

@Run n Fly: As it says in the big box at the top when you start a thread, you must notify someone if you open a thread about them. I've added the requisite message to Parthhalder's talk page. — Rhododendrites \\ 13:32, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

@Rhododendrites: pardon for the honest mistake. Will keep that in mind next time and thanks for notifying on my behalf. Run n Fly (talk) 13:34, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

• I encountered Run n Fly when I nominated Malabika Sen for deletion, perhaps too early. I promised that I would withdraw the nomination if they improved the article. They did, I did, and thought no more about it, save that I viewed the article as borderline when I withdrew. My decision was about giving it a fighting chance.

I may offer an opinion in any of these discussions, or I may not. Any opinion will be rooted in policy.

Other than that I have no horse in this race and offer no opinion in this discussion, at least at this point. Fiddle Faddle 14:53, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: While I dont have anything to say about the allegations, I dont see anything wrong in these AFD nominations. I already commented on two AFD discussions and from my assessment, the notability of the subject in those two were borderline. At the same time, I also have concerns regarding why Parthlader is only targeting the articles created by Run n Fly. Regards. Kichu🐘 15:10, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
• There were only five articles sent to AfD, and they appear to need a discussion (one looks like a weak keep, one looks like a possible delete), so not really a disruptive mass nomination coming to ANI for. SportingFlyer T·C 15:13, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
• Parthhalder (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) I don't why Parthhalder is targeting my creations only. Anyone may examine the contributions (only 95+ till now) with three creations two deleted due to WP:PROMOTION. Also his/her statements in nominations seems to be done in hurry with spelling mistakes. Looks like some motive or WP:REVENGE behind WP:AFDs for unknown reasons. Looks suspicious to me. Thank you Run n Fly (talk) 16:11, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

  @Run n Fly However hard done by you may feel it is not appropriate for you to impute motives to another editor. I commend Misplaced Pages:Don't shoot yourself in the foot to you after you have read Misplaced Pages:Civility Fiddle Faddle 16:14, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

  @Timtrent OK. Will remember that. Run n Fly (talk) 16:18, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

  @Run n Fly I am sure people will be asking whether you have attempted to resolve this on the talk page of the editor you have expressed concerns about.To save them the trouble I am asking. Have you done so? And have you allowed time for a reply?

  If neither of these is the case may I suggest that you withdraw this discussion (you may not delete it, only withdraw your complaint) pending the outcome of those discussions, discussions which must be conducted with civility. Fiddle Faddle 16:26, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

• While I have nothing to comment on the purported feud, I have found apparently the only live article, created by Parthhalder (other than the previously deleted Signature 24 Production) failing to achieve notability and so decided to nominate it for a deletion discussion. Chirota (talk) 23:37, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
• @Run n Fly: For the images you uploaded for Ratna Ghoshal, and Anushree Das, you put source as "own work". Do you mean you took this pictures/videos yourself or you took a screenshot of them and is your own work. Ratna's Picture looks as if its from this interview. And Anushree's picture looks like its from this episode(not this clip) of one of her shows. WikiVirusC 13:41, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

WikiVirusC First one scanned from local newspaper and second one I have obtained from film VCD and edited both in GIMP. I have now updated these declarations now in respective commons 'source'. Thanks for pointing them. Run n Fly (talk) 14:00, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I have self removed the images from respective articles as 'scanned photographs' are not own work. Thank you. Run n Fly (talk) 17:17, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Speculating on mental conditions

I've been seeing several instances here, on disparate threads, where we speculate on the mental conditions of other editors. In the instances I've seen in the last week, the motives of the speculating editors have been pure as the driven snow. However, I really think this needs to stop. It is a form of personal attack. I wouldn't want someone commenting on my mental health if I were having a bad day. Or a good day, for that matter. If someone wants to disclose a mental medical condition in order to help other editors understand where they are coming from, that is well and good. Otherwise, unless you are a medical doctor, and that editor is your patient, and that patient has given explicit permission to disclose medical conditions, then commenting on medical status is inappropriate at best and highly disruptive at worst. Maybe I'm the only one concerned and I'm off base, but please think about it? Thanks! 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 14:10, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

This is more of a Village Pump thing than an ANI thing. versacespaceleave a message! 14:13, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

How do you figure this is a VPP issue, VersaceSpace? There are already existing policies for this, including WP:NPA. TAXIDICAE💰 14:32, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree that there are policies against this but aren't ANI reports for individual editors? versacespaceleave a message! 14:40, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

While I think the incident in the thread I'm involved in was inappropriate (as the user in question had only disclosed his neurotype in a much more limited context than goddamn ANI), I can't imagine a way to formalize this that doesn't fall into the "everything is either mandatory or forbidden" trap -- that is, doesn't end in people overcorrecting and totally avoiding any and all discussion of someone's neurotype or potential psychological distress even when it's obviously relevant. (I've commented on that issue here too.) I think, hard as it is to say, we'll have to use common sense rather than try and legislate it. Don't out people as neurodivergent at ANI; don't act as though someone in the midst of serious psychological distress is going to handle a thread exactly the same way as anyone else, either. Vaticidalprophet 14:23, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I placed this here on purpose. This is related to at least two active threads on this page. I am not looking to implement or modify policy or procedures, our current ones adequately address this. Thank you. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 14:27, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Do you have any diffs of specific comments you feel were inappropriate? If not there's not much that can be done about vague concerns with no clear examples. — Czello 14:30, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Czello I'm not the one you asked, but I can only assume it was this absolutely inappropriate and bizarre comment. TAXIDICAE💰 14:36, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I could, but I won't. I'm not asking for anything to be "done" about it. I'm not looking to make anyone feel bad, or to shame anyone, highlight "bad" behavior, or to be on the lookout for someone to block. As these are active threads, I'm merely hoping those who have turned conversations that direction will amend their course. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 14:38, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

As someone who, in real life, volunteers with a charity that takes folk with disability afloat, I agree with @78.26 that this should not be a "Something Must Be Done" thread. Unless it ever becomes a Misplaced Pages:Competence is required issue I believe we must and should take all editors as face value. Any speculation is insulting.

What needs to take place is quiet education by any of us, all of us, of the editor expressing an opinion in this vein. That is certainly not a recommendation for any official action, simply a collegial awareness, and each editor taking personal responsibility.

The charity I volunteer for is very clear. All of us are equal whether we consider ourselves to have a disability, a different ability, a specific neurotype, whatever the correct term is. I expect it to be the same here, but am never surprised when it is not.

The issue arises when one sees a style of editing that one might associate with particular areas, and makes the error of seeking to describe one's thoughts to another editor, almost always out of consideration, albeit misplaced, for the person being described Fiddle Faddle 15:06, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for this - It's really weird how nobody found this unacceptable in the other threads. There are so many reasons people get frustrated, and the vast majority of them have nothing to do with having a "mental disorder." I think people also need to consider what kind of effect their jump from "bad faith editor" to "mentally ill editor" might have on non-nuerotypical editors who edit constructively, of whom there are many. ThadeusOfNazereth 15:05, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I've submitted ANIs about this in the past (example). IMO speculating about the mental health of another editor is unacceptable. But apparently some editors do it in good faith, possibly without thinking and/or are trying to show empathy, so probably best not to come down like a ton of bricks for minor infractions. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 15:15, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Like. (Originally to PR, but also equally to ThadeusOfNazereth, whose comment I mistook as part of PR's.) El_C 15:29, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Speculating about the mental health of another editor is absolutely unacceptable. I'm saying this as someone you could probably speculate a lot about, and it is extremely disrespectful. All editors here are equals, and while a user's mental state could be a good-to-know when an issue crops up, it's not at all something one should speculate about ever. If the user hasn't made it public that something is the case, it's not acceptable to try and "figure it out". I agree with pretty much everyone here (nom, ProcrastinatingReader, ThadeusOfNazereth, Timtrent, and Vaticidalprophet). —moonythedwarf (Braden N.) 15:29, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I'd agree the same, and also add that an editor who may have disclosed neurodivergence elsewhere should not have that brought up as 'evidence' supporting another editor's view of their conduct or an issue they may have brought up.

Though I haven't seen it onwiki myself, as someone who's autistic and went through higher education - where none of my tutors had the faintest clue how to handle it - there were times where I felt like my issues were just being lumped under 'oh, they're autistic', swiftly followed by 'well, that's their problem to deal with, nothing I can do'. I've experienced being abandoned for my neurodivergencies before, and it's not something I'd see anyone else go through, either.

Editors should be careful not to let a potential disclosure colour or affect the way they respond to an editor with a disclosed neurodivergency, in regards to "special" treatment that merely acts as leaving that editor to handle things by themselves, and dropping in every so often to criticise behaviour seen to be "part" of their neurodivergence. --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 15:43, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing that, Ineffablebookkeeper - When I worked as a tutor in the writing center at my school I noticed a similar trend among other student workers and even the faculty. It's definitely not just a problem on Misplaced Pages, and I really appreciated what Timtrent said above about trying to make a space for education here. I don't think it's helpful to blame people for assuming that bringing up neurodivergency would be empathetic or helpful if they haven't been called out on it, but if they do it again it should be considered a conduct issue under WP:CIVIL imo. ThadeusOfNazereth 16:15, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

On a sidenote, I strongly encourage editors having active issues to take a break from the site. This is the primary reason I'm currently not actively contributing, so frankly it's a good thing I happened to check AN/I today. —moonythedwarf (Braden N.) 15:32, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) My full opinion on this topic is maybe a bit more chaotic. (I do use 'neurotype' and 'neurodivergence' over 'mental illness' in those posts, after all.) One big issue that I've alluded to elsewhere is neurotypical and neurodivergent people actually tend to draw the line of acceptable speculation in different places. A neurodivergent person may well be shocked to find neurotypical people reacting with "you're about to be blocked for personal attacks" to something they thought was a bona fide explanation drawn from personal experience. (Corollary-slash-contra: fuck if I'd ever disclose the details of my neurotype onwiki, because I'd not exactly be happy to find it diffed on ANI.) Vaticidalprophet 15:36, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I absolutely agree here, I'm mainly commenting on mental health, but my opinion on neurodivergent is identical to yours. —moonythedwarf (Braden N.) 15:40, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Even if an editor makes it public I don't think it should be brought up in dispute resolution. For example: Aspergers was brought up about another editor above, to speculate on why an editor behaves the way they do, and that comment seemed like it would've been discomforting for the receiving editor. In fairness, it appears to have been made in good faith as some kind of 'mitigating factor', but that doesn't make it better IMO. Perhaps those with the condition feel differently about this, but from my perspective: unless an editor is disclosing a mental condition and themselves trying to use it as a mitigating factor (and I've never seen an editor do this), nobody should be speculating whether an editor has a mental condition, or if a mental condition they have has anything to do with their conduct. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 15:46, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

You hit it on the nose here. That comment was clearly brought up in good faith, but the person it was directed at was pretty obviously made uncomfortable and interpreted it as an attack against their neurodivergency(and honestly, I don't blame them). Keeping discussion on the disputes themselves should always be the standard. ThadeusOfNazereth 16:05, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Agree —moonythedwarf (Braden N.) 16:10, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

• Mental health should not be used as a sword or a shield. We have no way to verify anyone's mental health claims (about themselves or others), and most people don't know about or understand the details of various mental health issues. Information about an editor's mental health is thus not verifiable or useful to us; it's irrelevant. I don't understand why anyone ever brings it up. (That includes self-disclosures.) Either an editor is able to contribute or not; if able, it doesn't matter what their mental health is, and if not able, it doesn't matter why not. WP:NOTTHERAPY makes this point. Levivich /_hound 16:19, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

• As the kids say, "I feel seen." Quite recently I commented on a thread, I think here perhaps elsewhere on a noticeboard, that I suspected an editor might be on the spectrum because of their editing, language, and other behaviour. Now as it happens, I am also on the spectrum, as anyone who has spent over a decade editing facts, figures, numbers and niche interest articles would be expected to, I suppose. Nonetheless, of course I see the issue with typing in the public domain my assumptions and guess-work about an editor's neurodivergence. I can only say that my observation was not meant as insult, merely an assumption from the manner and form of communication another editor was using. As someone who has to navigate the world while not always able to understand or compute tone of voice or facial expression, I know that it's difficult to analyse someone at face value. This section has some interesting elements to it and I will try to learn from my behaviour and that of others. doktorb _words 16:31, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

User AldezD

I wish I can report this matter to AldezD because of the conduct, which we have monitored over time. This user has frequently revert the edits of many users without reason, whether good will or not, but their edits have proven nothing wrong; if some people want to comment or left a message, this user is a funny coward, as he blanked the talk page so that he could hide any evidence of him doing. I am the same anonymous user who previously filed a report on the page but only a warning was issued because he did not do anything wrong, but the administrators are wrong, and if there is a wrong in Misplaced Pages, I want to fix this. 183.90.37.42 (talk) 16:17, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

This the admin noticeboard, so what we need are diffs, rather than linking to basic policy pages — pages which the average reviewer here is already expected to be aware of. El_C 16:23, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Take a look at his contributions- he undid many of the possible improvements made by many users in Misplaced Pages and even blanked his page. This is not right and it's not that attitude of a Misplaced Pages. 183.90.37.42 (talk) 16:26, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, but I require more precise evidence in the form of diffs, if you wish for me to review this as an uninvolved admin. Again, no need to link to the user's contribs — I know how to do that already. El_C 16:28, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

OK, but when I got diffs for evidence, I will repost this again.183.90.37.42 (talk) 16:30, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) 183.90.37.42: AldezD can remove comments placed on their user talk page whenever they like. See WP:OWNTALK. This appears to be their preferred method of cleaning up their user talk page based on the editing history of their talk page. As EL_C noted above, diffs of what you think are problematic would need to be provided. It's rather difficult to go through the 16k+ edits this editor has made to find potential diffs that might be problematic. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:23, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm going to be a bit more bold here. Who's sock are you? I find it very odd that this IP hasn't edited in a month and it's first edits in that time are to come to ANI to post a complaint, and checking the IPs history, none of their edits were reverted or changed by AldezD. RickinBaltimore (talk) 17:30, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I use edit summaries and follow policy guidelines. I don't stalk or harass other editors. I leave template warning messages when vandalism is made by a non-registered or newly-registered user, and leave more detailed talk page comments for other editors linking guidelines when I revert something. Articles I submit for deletion are made in good faith and include links to reasons why the article has not met WP guidelines. ANIs I have opened for other editors are based upon reasons why the user is not following WP guidelines or has an evidenced pattern of vandalism, and those ANIs include links to guidelines and the user's edits.

WP:UP#CMT "does not prohibit users, whether registered or unregistered, from removing comments from their own talk pages".

In instances when I do not use an edit summary, it is most often when reverting edits that are clearly vandalism, where I am removing repeated addition of misinformation, or when making other similar minor changes. I use rollback sparingly to revert vandalism.

I have far better things in life to focus my attention on instead of a "wahh wahh wahh someone undid my edit" ANI. If a registered user is going to log out and use the IP to open an ANI and call me a "coward"—and even include in this ANI your comment that I "did not do anything wrong"—well then I guess you're more devoted to something that to me is merely a hobby. Perhaps you should focus your attention internally and reflect on your own life and purpose.

You'll notice I used edit summaries in this reply.

Cheers. AldezD (talk) 17:19, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

• I have had a quick look at AldezD's contribs and I can see nothing wrong, indeed their recent edits mostly appear to be the reverting of large amounts of unsourced trivia to articles. Unless the IP can come up with something that actully needs to be looked at, I suggest this is closed. Black Kite (talk) 17:36, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

@JBW: would you please check edits for 183.90.37.42 against ‎PAustin4thApril1980? Thanks. AldezD (talk) 17:40, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

@AldezD: I don't see any obvious connection, but there's very little to go on. If you have anything worth considering please let me know what it is. JBW (talk) 22:28, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Persistent vandalism

User Abrand71 has made a series of vandalizing edits to Demographic history of Palestine (region) and Demographic history of Jerusalem, in 2019, 2020 and 2021. The edits have the same pattern of subtle vandalism (the worst kind in my book); the editor changes sourced demographic data with random figures which look credible but bear no relation to the source. I think we have caught them each time so far, but one day this is going to be missed and the fabricated figures will be overlooked. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:10, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Hi! Don't forget to notify people when your report them here. I have done so for this user. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 20:09, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

@Abrand71: shouldn't be editing Arab-Israeli conflict pages. They haven't ever been given a discretionary sanction notice. I just posted one on their page. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 02:45, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I also extended-confirmed protected both articles which are edited by non-autoconfirmed users on a regular basis.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:39, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I've given them a final warning. Onceinawhile, the report and reverting the edits is appreciated, but you should try to discuss edits that are not blatant vandalism with the user before going to a noticeboard and even vandals should be warned: WP:WARNVAND. Fences&Windows 22:51, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Disruptive categories

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Fcstu_2000113193 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Editor is persisting in adding incorrect "English-speaking country or territory" categories to articles despite a warning not to do so. I've reverted their widespread edits (affecting about two dozen articles so far) per WP:ROLLBACKUSE no. 5; but I'm afraid the only way to stop this will be a block. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:29, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

As a note, they aren't using rollback (they don't have it.) However their combative behavior, disruptive edit summaries and lack of edit summaries where they are not disruptive is troubling. TAXIDICAE💰 19:34, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

And on that note, this is clearly a sock or troll and I would suggest a swift block. TAXIDICAE💰 19:35, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

@Praxidicae: I was justifying my own use of it (in addition to the messages I left on their talk page). But yeah, if its a troll... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:36, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, my contacts are wonky and I only briefly read. In any case, they should be indeffed, this is clearly a user who is not here for anything productive. TAXIDICAE💰 19:37, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Blocked for WP:NOTHERE. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:39, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Personal attacks by the above

Hello,

A user who I have never interacted with has put on their userpage that they "hate me with a burning passion" despite me never actually interacting with them. Further investigation shows that putting that on their user page was their third edit after joining the platform. This leads me to conclude that this is a sockpuppet but I do not know what user it is a sock of. Or rather, I can guess, but not with enough evidence to take it to the sock report people. I am reporting them here on the grounds that this is a blatant unwarranted personal attack.

CAMERAwMUSTACHE (talk) 19:30, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

• Note also stuff like this, which I assume contains nothing edifying. Unblock request which is likely to be denied, and then likely a request for a glock for cross-wiki abuse? Anyway, we're done here. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:43, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
  • @Bsadowski1: See you blocked them over there as a checkuser block. Mind telling who they're a sock of? Cheers, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:48, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I have tagged them here. --Bsadowski1 01:30, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Long running RFC at Talk:RuPaul's Drag Race UK (series 2)

There's been a few admins involved on-off. Would an uninvolved admin please take a look at the recent thread Talk:RuPaul's_Drag_Race_UK_(series_2)#Any_update_on_the_"debate"? and close/resolve the RFC as necessary. Its been long enough and I'm at a stage where either way, we need a decision. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 22:41, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I posted a request at WP:AN/RFC with link to the discussion in question. Either way it will be dealt with, and hopefully this annoying at least partly-Twitter-fuelled incident can be quietly forgotten. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 23:05, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Continuous addition of unsourced content to Koshta by User:Piyushkoshta.

User:Piyushkoshta is continuously adding unsourced information to Koshta despite being reverted and warned by editors , , , . The user has also performed various personal attacks in the user's edit summaries, and also may have a conflict of interest, as the username and language indicates that the user is part of the very same caste that the user is editing about. Action must be taken by an administrator to prevent the addition of unsourced content, especially in such a contentious area as South Asian social groups. Chariotrider555 (talk) 00:58, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Blocking now. As a general note, this topic area requires rapid and heavy handed actions from administrators; POV pushing is absolutely rife, and SPAs only get worse the longer you wait. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:37, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I'll note that such an approach can be aided by invoking the WP:CASTE GS. El_C 01:56, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Talk page misuse by R. Martiello

R. Martiello (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has repeatedly and significantly altered/removed their previous posts on talk pages . They have not responded to messages on their user talk page, including a message asking them to abide by talk page guidelines. I'm generally getting strong WP:NOTHERE vibes from this user. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 07:38, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Reviewing the editor's history: there seems to have been a little previous editing at BLPs, but since June 2020 there's intent to redefine some commonly used English terms, like including Italians in the definition of Latino people. It's unclear to me if it's language barrier, nationalism or other reasons, but there's a lot of persistence despite previous explanation. Long winded posts and forum-style argumentation are used rather than presenting reliable sources to support their suggestions, previous self-posts are often reworked despite already being replied to (warned, repeated). Their talk page is full of warnings including for writing strange posts like this and for not citing sources when adding/changing material in articles. Altering content without a source happens again on 2 March, the rest is seemingly endless debate... —PaleoNeonate – 11:04, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

• R. Martiello has posted on other people's talkpages, so I'm not going to make my frequent strenuously-AGF supposition that they may not be aware of having a talkpage of their own. Altogether, they don't give off much of a new-and-incompetent-user vibe, but seem to know their way around Misplaced Pages. I would block them, possibly for NOTHERE, were it not for the fact that I did block them for personal attacks/harassment in June 2020 — still the only block on their record. To avoid the impression that I have a bee in my bonnet about the user, it would be better if another admin took stock of the situation and of the appropriateness, if any, of some sanction, or of yet another warning. Bishonen | tålk 11:27, 17 April 2021 (UTC).

Possible puppetry

User Tusharrayate has created two articles, apparently on himself and his business. Speedies were requested on both, but these were removed by another user, with very little edit history except removal of speedies.  Looks like a duck to me, but I didn't want to take this to sock investigation just yet before someone more experienced takes a look. --DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:03, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I've blocked him. Talk about shameless self-promotion. Deb (talk) 08:50, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Deb, TopAndPopular appears to have almost singlemindedly worked to thwart any attempt at addressing the self-promotion by Tusharrayate; reverting other editors (including me) and telling blatant porky pies whilst doing so. If they're not related I'll eat my hat, and if they do a single thing to build an encyclopaedia I'll have my coat for dessert... Jack Frost (talk) 09:06, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Yep, TopAndPopular is indeed the one I meant in my OP but forgot to name/link — sorry! --DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:25, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

• Pune Institute of Business Management (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is perhaps the epicentre of this. See its edit history. Not necessarily puppetry, but a congress of people who cannot write. Uncle G (talk) 09:19, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Comment - yes, clearly there is either sock or meat puppetry going on. I only blocked one user, in the hope that this gets rid of related users as well. That's why I haven't closed the discussion. Deb (talk) 10:39, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

• In related news: Multibrands International (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) was a typical PR job. I pruned it. Guy (help! - typo?) 14:11, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Nguyentrongphu bludgeoning Talk:Adolf Hitler

User:Nguyentrongphu wants to make a change to Adolf Hitler, so they post on the article talk page. Three editors disagree that the change is warranted, so Nguyentrongphu starts another thread on Talk:Adolf Hitler and more editors disagree with him. So Nguyentrongphu starts a third thread on the talk page, where another editor disagrees with him. So far, six editors have disagreed with Nguyentrongphu, but they still insist on pushing for their change, saying that "consensus can be slow to build."

There is no apparent consensus to be built. The six editors who have disagreed with Nguyentrongphu include those editors who are very frequent contributors to the article and to the talk page. Not one has even hinted that they think Nguyentrongphu's change is acceptable.

Can an admin please suggest to Nguyentrongphu that they need to back off? If there's a consensus waiting for come to the surface to support their suggested change, it doesn't require constant bludgeoning from Nguyentrongphu. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:11, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Notified. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:13, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Warned. Bishonen | tålk 11:35, 17 April 2021 (UTC).

It's not bludgeoning when I'm continuously trying to improve the sentence after receiving positive feedbacks such as the strength of the source. The requested change in the three threads are different, not the same. I have the right to improve my requested change when I see new valid arguments surfacing. After seeing issues with my 2 earlier threads, I started a third thread with more reliable and strong sources. Each thread is independent and has different contents, so saying 6 editors disagree with my third thread is misleading. It's actually one so far.

The sentence is problematic in its current state. Is the Hitler article so perfect that it's impossible to improve it any further? Other editors don't seem to be interested in improving the article further. I'm willing to compromise if someone can offer a better wording. Everyone should approach changes with an open mind. Nguyentrongphu (talk) 12:42, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I did comment on the first proposal, noting that you've synthesized something that is not actually present in the cited sources. That's called original research, and we're not allowed to do that. Your further proposals are no better, offering an over-simplified reason (proposal #2) as to why Hitler purged the SA and one that is obviously incorrect (proposal #3). Multiple other people (not just one person) have explained to you why none of the suggested edits work, so I did not see a reason for me to also add a comment. In the first thread Talk:Adolf Hitler#Request to add information, you said I seemed to be not knowledgeable, and later implied that you are senior to all of us. I tend not to participate in discussions with people who say things like that, particularly when multiple other people are already handling the situation just fine. I get it that people want to edit the big article, but when your suggested edits are low quality, they are not going to succeed.— Diannaa (talk) 13:41, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Diannaa I take back the "not knowledgable" part. The "seniority" part, one has to look at the whole context. I was just making a point that don't start to talk about seniority when you joined Misplaced Pages after me. I clearly clarified seniority doesn't matter right afterward. I did try to adjust my proposal accordingly every time I saw a valid rational feedback. You don't have to agree with my proposal, but why don't you try to improve the sentence? It's partially untrue and misleading in its current state. Hitler didn't give a damn about anxiety of industrial and political leaders. Look at the causes in the table at Night of the Long Knives (2 of them involving the army). I'm requesting an improvement to the sentence that you yourself can come up with a change of what you think is best. Nguyentrongphu (talk) 16:08, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Nguyentrongphu, it seems to me that you are promoting an idiosyncratic interpretation of sources you have read, and are not willing to accept that others are unpersuaded. You really should know better than this. There's a huge sprawling discussion, and you seem to be the lone voice in favour of what you want to say. It doesn't help that some of it reads as apologia, which I am sure is not your intent. I recommend you read the sources suggested by Buidhe on the talk page, it seems that you are working from older sources than other editors familiar with the subject. Guy (help! - typo?) 14:07, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Guy I did incorporate Buidhe's suggested source in my third proposal though. Take a look. Nguyentrongphu (talk) 16:27, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Skb7 false accusation against me

Hi administrator, I was accused by Skb7 through my talk page for harassment when I'm simply following the protocol. In addition, Skb7 also accused me of wikistalking and asking me unfollow the pages, and asking me to "refrain from making idiotic threats. I did not wikistaking him/her, simply watching pages that is within my watchlist. Neither did I make any threats but simply issued Level 1 warning after user continously added unsourced content to Rosé (singer) despite me stating my rationale through the edit summary. Also in Talk:Rosé (singer)#Please fix the Guinness Records, user accused me quote "He did this previously, and mindlessly reverted dozens of previous edits, and then, in spite of being proven wrong, continues to do it, now with threats", same issue here, again accussing me for issuing threats when I didn't. And also quote "Being abused for adding sourced accurate information is not a good look.", accusation again.

I believe user was referring to the reverted edits make by me on Gone (Rosé song), as with previously, user added unsourced content or failed verification content. Some of user edits in Gone (Rosé song) was sourced such as adding charts, however as per WP:CHARTS, I has to come from either Billboard or South Korean Gaon Chart for Korean releases at the minimum. User added Melon Music instead which is WP:SINGLEVENDOR which is why iTunes charts is allowed in charts table.

This accusation started because of user keep continously adding "How You Like That" to Rosé (singer)#World records table, this is the included source in table. However no where did the source explictly stated "How You Like That" is awarded "First artist to reach number one on a Billboard Global chart as a soloist and as part of a group" which the user is trying to associate with. This is history of diff by Skb7 by continously adding "How You Like That" . As seen from the diff, no supporting source was provided to support the claim for "How You Like That" was awarded the mentioned world record. In addition, neither did the source provided in List of awards and nominations received by Blackpink#World records table and How You Like That#Accolades table stated "How You Like That" is awarded "First artist to reach number one on a Billboard Global chart as a soloist and as part of a group". This is the record page, which also doesn't indicate "How You Like That" is awarded the "First artist to reach number one on a Billboard Global chart as a soloist and as part of a group" previously or is holding the record currently.

I believe such behavior is not allowed in English Misplaced Pages or other languages Misplaced Pages, administrator please look into this issue. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 12:58, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

• I have fully protected the page. A brief look at the sources suggests you are correct; her solo song did indeed top the Billboard Global 200, but the Blackpink song only topped the "Global 200 Excl. USA" chart, which is not the same thing. Black Kite (talk) 13:24, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

  @Black Kite: Thanks for speedy response. However, I think extended-protected status would be sufficient for the time-being or user should be warned or blocked temporaily whichever is appropriate. Unless, the fully-protected status is because of investigation ongoing due to this incident. This is my first time filing an incident hence I may not know much if this is the usual procedure, sorry about that. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 13:40, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

  User continue to accuse me as seen in this revision, and doesn't seem accept the evidence already provided through Talk:Rosé (singer)#Please fix the Guinness Records. I believe administrator should take some actions against this user. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 16:29, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

  To responsing administrator, user continue false accusation against me. As per WP:WATCHLIST, quote "A watchlist is a page which allows any logged-in user to maintain a list of "watched" pages and to generate a list of recent changes made to those pages (and their associated talk pages). In this way you can keep track of, and react to, what's happening to pages you have created or are otherwise interested in.", it is perfectly within my rights to watch articles, however user seem to interprete otherwise. As per WP:HA#NOT, quote "However, there is an endemic problem on Misplaced Pages of giving "harassment" a much broader and inaccurate meaning which encompasses, in some cases, merely editing the same page as another user. Therefore, it must be emphasized that one editor warning another for disruption or incivility is not harassment if the claims are presented civilly, made in good faith, and in an attempt to resolve a dispute instead of escalating one. and Neither is tracking a user's contributions for policy violations (see above); the contribution logs exist for editorial and behavioral oversight. Editors do not own their edits, or any other article content, and any other editor has a right to track their editing patterns, and, if necessary, to revert their edits. Unwarranted resistance to such efforts may be a sign of ownership behavior and lead to sanctions. I believe your would have already known this, however I like to input this here. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 17:18, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I have been inserting factual information and User:Paper9oll has been mindlessly reverting it with threats and warnings. I request urgent administrator intervention. This is clearly harassment and stalking and does not help to build an encyclopaedia. Please can you ban Paper9oll for his abusive behaviour and ask him to stop stalking and harassing me and reverting all of my constructive edits. Thank you. Skb7 (talk) 16:46, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

@Skb7: you need to either provide evidence of WP:Wikistalking or withdraw the claim or you're likely to be blocked for making a personal attack. As Paper9oll mentioned, someone editing pages on their watchlist isn't wikistalking. Nil Einne (talk) 18:07, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

• Having read the message by Skb7 here, on Paper9oll's talkpage, and on my talkpage I have partial blocked them from editing the article, and dropped the protection back to semi. Black Kite (talk) 18:21, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

• Paper9oll: your sig + green tq + yellow highlight = colour overload! El_C 18:50, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Stalking and harassment by User:Paper9oll

I have been stalked by User Paper9oll, who has been mindlessly reverting accurate information added by me on dozens of occasions. He has clearly set up a watch page to automatically revert everything I add, and, in spite of being proven wrong on dozens of occasions, he is still doing it. I note that you locked the Rose (singer) page in order to support his stalking and harassment. I just want him to leave me alone and let me edit in peace. I have not added anything false at all. His insistence on reverting things that have sources and are accurate is just nonsensical, yet he has done it on numerous occasions. Please can you undo the page lock. There was no vandalism on that page. I was inserting factual verified information. The vandalism was by Paper9oll. Thank you.

Some examples of false accusations by Paper9oll against me:

• - "Disruptive editing (RW 16.1)" - when I was inserting accurate information.

• - "No where did the GWR source stated "How You Like That" is given "First artist to reach number one on a Billboard Global chart as a soloist and as part of a group (RW 16.1))" - even though it clearly states on Blackpink's page that How You Like That is the first and only Blackpink single to have reached number 1 on the Global 200. Paper9oll is lying...

• - in breach of WP:3RR, he reverted me 3 times (I only reverted him twice). He claims that this belongs on Blackpink's page, but it actually doesn't, as the record is for first soloist and group member to top the Global 200, so it should be on Rose's page, but reference Blackpink, as I did.

• Generally, I think that he just has no idea of this topic and is just being a bully.

It goes back further, and I will go to further disruption by this user against me (and I don't need to go into disruption by this user against others, as he admits to being a "recent-changes patroller" and he mass reverts every day on topics he has no knowledge of.

Some more examples of Stalking, harassment and incorrect reversions against me:

• - Deleted a mass of accurate edits by me with sources. While they were later added on, there was no apology for being wrong, and he just keeps on doing it.
• - What I wrote here was accurate and is in the current agreed-to version of the article. He was wrong. Never apologised. Just kept on mindlessly reverting.
• - Another WP:3RR breach, once again by falsely reverting accurate sourced information. The source was in the other article, which I linked to (!)

• He has had dozens of 3RR breaches, dozens of reverts with no decent recent, stalking, harassment and abuse, and now he is claiming they are "false accusations"! I am asking for help here. Are you seriously abusing me here????

• - This one reverted a whole lot of work and he was wrong. Completely and utterly wrong. No apology ever.

• - This one was queried (as it should have been, and, had they waited 2 days, it would have been proven to Misplaced Pages standards to be accurate). It would have survived AFD, but no, it was mindlessly reverted.

The term "accusation" implies that what I said is false. Per above, it is plainly true. Once again, please can you block User:Paper9oll, who is clearly not interested in contributing to Misplaced Pages, and please can you reassure me that his stalking and harassing behaviour that he has exhibited towards me, as proven above, is not acceptable behaviour. It is not a good look AT ALL.Skb7 (talk)

W28394

W28394 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Constant disruption (removal of sourced info, alteration of sourced info, etc), WP:TENDENTIOUS and edit warring, unable to take his concerns to the talk page - some examples;

Jalal-ud-din Khalji

Hindkowans

This is not the first he has edit warred across these articles, as he was blocked for the very thing back in September .

--HistoryofIran (talk) 13:29, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

HistoryofIran

HistoryofIran (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Accuses editors of not being able to take their concerns to the talk page without actually having visited those talk pages and seeing editor contributions and discussions on said talk pages despite being requested to do so before engaging in edit warring.

Discussions spanning back to months and years after which a consensus was reached amongst various editors is being blatantly ignored by the user and edits are being disruptively made. As stated earlier, the user accuses editors of not being able to take their concerns to the talk page without ever clicking on the talkpage. This should be evidence enough of the user being a disruptive editor. Talk pages in question; Hindkowans , Khalji Dynasty, Jalal-ud-din Khalji

W28394 (talk) 14:13, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

As you have repeatedly failed to get the point that claiming to be right does not excuse edit warring, and started a bogus retaliatory thread, I'm blocking you for a week. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 14:38, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

The 'consensus' on the talk page referred to by W28394 here and here is entirely fictional: rather, Talk:Jalal-ud-din Khalji, Talk:Khalji dynasty, Talk:Hindkowans contain long discussions where W28394 found themselves opposed (and quite a few times, warned) by other editors. This has been going on at least since August 2020 (see the article talk pages and the user's own talk page). Although a consensus was given at a talk page by the user themselves, in reality the edit warring just continued after that (, , , and see especially this one). I believe that a longer block is warranted. Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 14:45, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

User/IP continuing to go on my talk page

Basically, there is an editor who I had blocked from editing an off-Misplaced Pages website I run. They have had disruptive edits here in the past, and even block evasion (see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/DarkWariior and Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/DarkWariior/Archive). They keep coming to my talk page to beg/whine for me to unblock them from the website, but I don't wish to discuss anything anymore with this person. Only problem is, they keep coming back- currently at 74.96.187.96.

I don't think it would be considered block evasion anymore, as both the master account and IP it was doing block evasion from are both no longer blocked- so if that is the case, is there any way to get rid of this IP from continuing to come to my talk page? Whether it be a partial block (blocked from just editing the talk page in question) or whatever other possibilities, I truly don't want to deal with them anymore, but they clearly don't understand what it means to 'stop'. Magitroopa (talk) 15:36, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

• Special:Diff/1018347082. Done. Uncle G (talk) 16:54, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Persistent disruptive edits by Uni3993

Uni3993 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Over the past week, this user has made a wide range of controversial changes to philosophy-related pages without developing consensus, resulting in warnings from multiple editors. Highlights include:

• Moving Idea to Idea (philosophy) (reverted by me after a post at WP:RM/TR)
• Moving Causality to Causality (philosophy) (reverted by Kj cheetham after a post at WP:RM/TR)
• Controversial and undiscussed changes to the lead sections of many articles, resulting in reverts from many editors. I could pull out specific diffs, but just take a look at their reverted contribs (note the complete lack of edit summaries).

This behavior has persisted despite multiple warning, so I'd like to get some additional eyes on it. – Lord Bolingbroke (talk) 18:40, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

• One of the things I check for when seeing a report like this is if the user is taking a WP:RADAR approach, just refusing to engage when anyone talks to them about their edits, and I ran across something I do not like the look of. They have never edited their own talk page, yet user talk edits make up over 50% of their total edits. How can this be? On March 22nd they created a few hundred user talk pages welcoming new users. A sampling of these welcomes turned up no accounts that had actually edited, they were just blindly welcoming every new account, an idea that has been repeatedly, explicitly rejected by the community. I don't think it is a coincidence that the very same day they managed to make their 500th edit and become extended confirmed, at which time they abruptly lost all interest in mass welcoming new users. Unless and until this is satisfactorily explained, I am revoking that user right. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:58, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

All of my actions regarding agrees with[REDACTED] policies. If they don't please give examples and the URL to the relevant policy. You don't need to be a dictator. Misplaced Pages is alive because of donations from donors like me. If it wasn't for us common peoples money, you wouldn't even be an administrator here. Uni3993 (talk) 20:08, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

The site is 100% run by volunteers, I'm not paid any more than you are so you can put that card back in the deck. We're here talking about your problematic editing, the gaming of user rights was just something I stumbled onto while looking into that. You need to start addressing the issues that have been raised here and on your talk page and stop deflecting. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:11, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Since they ignored three requests to stop editing in article space in the manner that has drawn concern, and since they've failed to address anything else they've been asked to respond to, I've blocked them for 24 hours to give them time to focus on an appropriate response. Acroterion (talk) 20:43, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Review of actions at Prince Louis of Battenberg

Third opinions are invited regarding my actions at the above article, which Purplebackpack89 (talk · contribs) characterizes as stalking. DrKay (talk) 18:55, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

• DrKay reverted my edits at one page (I added information about Philip's flag, they removed it). A few hours later, they reverted my edits at another page (Louis). If it's not stalking, it's sure as hell a great impression of it. It's also worth noting that DrKay has a history of edit-warring on British Royals articles, at least once resulting in a block. They really need to stop the edit-warring. As for Louis, I realized I was mistaken and stopped editing the article and let DrKay's revisions stand, so why an ANI is necessary now is beyond me. pbp 19:00, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

The flag was removed because it was a repeat. File:Royal Standard of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh.svg was already shown in the section immediately preceding the one you added, as was the description of the quarters (already shown in the immediately preceding 'Escutcheon' section). Both articles have been on my watchlist for 14 or more years; I edit both very regularly and one I took to featured status. DrKay (talk) 19:05, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

You should have explained that the first time you made the revert. You edit-war and stalk too much and you discuss too little. And you push other editors around and you exercise too much OWNership over British royals pages. Also, I believe Phil's flag needs to be discussed in more detail than it was prior to my edits. But this is not the place to discuss Phil's flag. pbp 19:28, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I did explain. I explicitly said it was a repetition in the first revert, and then followed that up by saying it was in the 'section immediately above'. DrKay (talk) 19:30, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

• I'm guessing DrKay has both articles on their watchlist so this probably is in no way "stalking". Besides, WP:HOUND allows for correcting related problems on multiple articles which this appears to be a case of anyway. And bringing up a block log which is nigh on eight years old is bad form. So, no boomerang for DrKay, more a trout for Purplebackpack89 and a warning not to cast aspersions. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 19:07, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Note: The Rambling Man has a history of hounding, stalking, bullying and harassing Purplebackpack89. And, judging by his sanctions, a helluvalot of other people. Why he thinks continuing that here is a good idea is beyond me. pbp 19:24, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
    • Your response here and your rush to accuse others of "stalking" is symptomatic. There's no point in trying to turn this on me, I'm just figuring out that DrKay had a number of articles you decided to suddenly edit on their watchlist. I think calling them a bully and a stalker for trying to remove errors that you've added to articles on their watchlist is a failure of NPA and you should be advised accordingly. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 19:33, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
      • Why are you still here? Stop stalking me! In fact, why haven't you been indefinitely banned from this project for all your tomfoolery. pbp 19:43, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
        • Responding to an ANI is not stalking. Accusing others of stalking without foundation is a personal attack. This is about you, not anyone else. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 19:48, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
          • TRM, you hadn't edited ANI in weeks until you jump in to an ANI about an editor with whom you've previously quarrelled. You also have no connection to the edits in question. It's more than coincidence that you're here. pbp 19:58, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
            • As far as I know, there's no ban on me editing ANI. And as I said, your problematic edits and accusations have affected not just DrKay. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:04, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
              • Just because there's no ban on you editing ANI doesn't mean it's a good idea to jump into an ANI with a person you have history with. And just because there's no ban on you editing ANI YET doesn't mean there won't eventually be one, considering your rap sheet. I don't know why, with all your blocks and sanctions, you think you have any suasion in the slightest to tell me or anybody else on this project how to behave. pbp 20:08, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
                • Aye, it's not even funny. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:15, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
                  • OOOH ARE YOU STALKING ME INDELIBLE HULK?! The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:17, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
                  • I'm not indelible, and stalked the OP. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:20, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
                    • I can't believe it. How suspicious. Etc. (insert hilarious joke here). The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:21, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
                      • Well, accept it. Followed from Talk:Donald Trump. You're simply collateral. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:25, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
                        • Followed from Trump?? I don't think so! Chuckles. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:27, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
                          • TRM, "they said you were high class" ...? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:35, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
                • This is all about your behaviour, not mine. But I think that's pretty obvious. You can't stop me commenting here, and having been subjected to accusations of a very similar nature, it was perfectly reasonable for me to opine. Your personal attacks are unjustified and unwarranted. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:12, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) DrKay is well-known for being all over royal articles. If I made erroneous edits on two “Mountbatten” articles (as Purplebackpack89 did) it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if DrKay reverted me both times. Even if that were not the case, two edits a stalker does not make. DeCausa (talk) 19:10, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

@DeCausa: Disagree. It's too much of a coincidence if it's two different articles in three hours. And I stopping editing those articles so what's the point of an ANI? pbp 19:28, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

"Why an ANI is necessary"? Well, I certainly wouldn't appreciate a comment like this. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:30, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: DrKay was rubbing me the wrong way. They weren't treating me with any respect in the slightest. I felt, and still feel, harassed by DrKay and that's why I said what I did. For example, I was called "delusional" by DrKay in one of the edits ago. If somebody was pushing you around like that, you would feel the same way. As far as things people have said to admins, it's relatively tame. And now I have TWO people hounding me and harassing me, because The Rambling Man is resuming his off-and-on pattern of popping into my life to make it miserable. pbp 19:43, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

No, just responding to this ANI. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 19:47, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

If any of my edits to "British Royals articles" get reverted by DrKay, I generally find it's a learning opportunity. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:48, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Maybe DrKay behaves differently to you, @Martinevans123: but it felt less like they were trying to teach me something and more like they were harassing. I'm entitled to feel that way. And people are essentially telling me that I'm not entitled to those feelings. And I still say there's no point in an ANI when I stopped editing the pages hours ago. pbp 19:58, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

• Why is this still open? There is no evidence of continuing edits to the page mentioned in the original post. pbp 19:58, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

  Well your behaviour here and in hurling accusations unfounded at multiple editors probably needs more analysis. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:04, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

  That's exactly why you're here. You don't care about the articles in question, which is nominally the topic of this ANI. You don't care about DrKay. You're just doing what you've been doing at least a couple times a year for the better part of a decade: jumping into a discussion about me to try and make me look bad and maybe try and get me punished. And you've got to stop doing that TRM. I stand 110% by my claim that you harass me. pbp 20:11, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

  Also, FWIW, TRM somehow found his way to another article I edited. TRM had previously never edited the article before. Again, more than coincidence... pbp 20:13, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

  Yeah, this is about your behaviour. And yes, per HOUND your problematic (unsourced in this case) edits needed to be addressed. I'm leaving this to someone now to check out all the accusations and aspersions and personal attacks. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:16, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

• Wandering in from the above thread, at a glance it certainly seems like PBP needs to take a chill pill and stop with the stalking accusations. I have an extensive watchlist, and it has happened quite a few times that somebody has made a series of problematic edits that affected a large swath of them, and I undid them all and explained to them why the edits were unhelpful. That's not stalking, it's maintaining the encyclopedia. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:19, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

@Beeblebrox: I literally have a diff of TRM stalking me with an edit to a page he'd never edited before. And more diffs of TRM doing that to me in the past. I am somewhat willing to retract the accusations against DrKay but I still think DrKay lacked civility in the way they treated me and that bothered me. When you undo large swathes of edits, Beeblebrox, you probably give more detailed, logical and courteous explanations than DrKay did to me. I stand 110% by my claim that TRM has been hounding me and stalking me off and on for years. pbp 20:25, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Purplebackpack, by your posts here you’re turning a situation where the worst that could happen is that you get a warning to one where you might get sanctions. Why don’t you just apologise for the PAs and get out of here. Don’t post anything else, you’re digging a hole. DeCausa (talk) 20:28, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Noticing someone is making problematic edits, then looking at other edits they made to see if they are also problematic is also not stalking. I don't believe I've linked to WP:SPIDER in years but it would seem to apply here. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:31, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Purplebackpack89, you are being argumentative and insulting to the point of disruption. I encourage you to stop. Cullen Let's discuss it 20:34, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

And given this as well ("You're a bully and a dick. I can't believe they gave you the mop. You would never get it under the current scrutiny.") I would strongly suggest PBP stops digging. Go and take a break, it'll do you good. Black Kite (talk) 20:45, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

@Black Kite: "Take a break"? I literally stopped editing the articles in question before the ANI even started. And remember that that was in response to DrKay calling me "delusional" so DrKay bears some responsibility as well. pbp 21:02, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) DrKay asked us to review the actions at Prince Louis of Battenberg (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs). While, as pointed out above, the stop stalking me appears to be meritless and would need much more serious evidence, I would note that DrKay reverted a good faith edit using rollback without leaving any edit summary. A quick inspection of their latest edits shows that they have done this on two other articles today (, ). This is not the standard we expect from anyone (also note that, even though there was only 1 edit reverted each time, using rollback like this in principle constitutes a reason to have rollback rights removed), let alone from an admin. Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 22:44, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
• Propose 1-way I ban I propose a 1-way interaction ban to ban PBP from interacting with DrKay, because the main issue here seems to be PBP's personal attacks and baseless accusations against DrKay. Jackattack1597 (talk) 22:34, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

That's a non-starter, @Jackattack1597:. Any one-way interaction ban is a non-starter. As Apaugasma notes above, DrKay's style of reverting/rollbacking is questionable. Also, a one-way interaction ban means that DrKay could undo my edits anywhere for any reason and I'd have no redress. It would also allow DrKay to say whatever the hell they wanted about me anywhere and I would be unable to respond. That's patently unfair. 2-way or 0-way. pbp 22:52, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

• Propose removal of rollback rights for DrKay per what Apaugasma said above. DrKay's use of rollback and lack of explanation for reverts was inappropriate. pbp 22:54, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

  It isn't technically possible to remove rollback from the admin toolset. You'd have to get him desysopped. P-K3 (talk) 22:58, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

  Honestly, de-sysop is something we need to consider. DrKay's mop is a relic of 2007 when it was much easier to get a mop than it is now. As noted by Apaugasma, DrKay's use of rollback and lack of explanation for reverts was inappropriate. DrKay has been blocked for edit-warring in the past, and frequently engages in it. Non-sysopped editors have been blocked or even indeffed for less edit warring. pbp 23:02, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

  If you really think DrKay needs to be desysopped, and you have evidence to support your case,WP:RFAR is right around the corner, but if you don't have substantially more evidence, I can't imagine that it would be accepted.Jackattack1597 (talk) 23:04, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

  PBP, please take Beeblebrox' advice above and calm down. People make mistakes, and we should at least see how they respond to them. It's probably a good idea to just wait this out a bit. Please take a break, and come back tomorrow. Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 23:16, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Jack Ciattarelli

I am looking at Jack Ciatarrelli's page. Why is he referred to as "Shitarrelli"? I cannot believe this is a mistake. It is disgusting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.187.18.109 (talk) 21:53, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Hi anon, this was some vandalism that snuck by our recent changes patrollers. I've reverted the vandalism so we should be all good now. – Lord Bolingbroke (talk) 22:37, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

IDHT, thinly veiled accusation and overall trolling (COVID)

• Empiricus-sextus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I didn't give the GS warning early enough, so asking instead for regular administrative intervention against disruptive talk page behaviour. The editor has been repeatedly informed about WP:MEDRS, WP:FRINGE, etc. Instead of following the advice therein, they've only continued in their WP:SOAPBOX behaviour, which includes disruptively repeating the same points; persistently accusing other editors of "not understanding" what little there is to understand in their comments (which are mostly OR, anyway); very unsubtly accusing me of being a CCP mouthpiece ( - this bears ressemblance with some of ScrupulousScribe's socks); and then outright trolling by making stuff up about what's been said and imagining some boldly ridiculous claims as "biggest misinforamtion of the 21st century". This is not limited to solely one talk page. Edits such as this one (which uncritically repeat some previous, debunked points) show this isn't something new.

I might have been a bit guilty of feeding the troll, here, but I'm quite confident that at least a topic ban is warranted. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 23:09, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards