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:::In my opinion, Mick's assessment is spot on and true to Misplaced Pages's approach. The text you added to the article, {{u|Khiikiat}}, should be removed, because your original addition was reverted, and the next step should have been you coming here and gaining consensus (per ]). You can do it or someone else will. If it needs saying (and it really doesn't, because Misplaced Pages is about remaining neutral), I think most people watching this page would be great admirers of Bob Dylan; no one is out to glorify this controversy. And I think the comment from the Dylan spokesperson says it all – there is no need for the Clinton Heylin bandaid. ] (]) 11:21, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
:::In my opinion, Mick's assessment is spot on and true to Misplaced Pages's approach. The text you added to the article, {{u|Khiikiat}}, should be removed, because your original addition was reverted, and the next step should have been you coming here and gaining consensus (per ]). You can do it or someone else will. If it needs saying (and it really doesn't, because Misplaced Pages is about remaining neutral), I think most people watching this page would be great admirers of Bob Dylan; no one is out to glorify this controversy. And I think the comment from the Dylan spokesperson says it all – there is no need for the Clinton Heylin bandaid. ] (]) 11:21, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
::::+1 that the current coverage in the article is ], etc. ] (]) 12:48, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
::::+1 that the current coverage in the article is ], etc. ] (]) 12:48, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
:::::should wiki dedicate a section for every sexual assault claim against anyone just because the echo chamber of the media reports it? The harassment allegations against Britney were reported, it's not on her page. The assault allegations against Bieber were reported, it does not have its own section. Misplaced Pages is not a news site and Dylan was not even in the location during the period when this alleged assault supposedly happened. So wouldn't this be WP:RECENTISM and WP:NOTNEWS?
Waiting for the outcome of a case to determine if something should be added is not a reason to avoid its addition. There are plenty of examples of existing unproven allegations, and likely false, on other wiki articles. As far as WP:Undue is concerned, that could be the case in the future, but certainly doesn’t appear to be at the moment.] (]) 13:25, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
Waiting for the outcome of a case to determine if something should be added is not a reason to avoid its addition. There are plenty of examples of existing unproven allegations, and likely false, on other wiki articles. As far as WP:Undue is concerned, that could be the case in the future, but certainly doesn’t appear to be at the moment.] (]) 13:25, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
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Lead: "Widely regarded as the greatest songwriter of all time"
I do not see this referenced anywhere in the body of the article. There is something about "top 100". Seems a bit of a stretch based on the ref'd material in the article body. Suggest removing if not ref'd. --Cornellier (talk) 06:38, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Hi Mick. Actually, the point I was making was that, judging by Cornellier's comments, "widely regarded" might be a stretch, as far as what's currently supported in the article (even if we do say "one of the greatest" in the lead). I don't know – and I'm certainly not arguing with the veracity of that statement "Widely regarded as one of the greatest songwriters of all time" – but I've not read the whole article. JG66 (talk) 16:36, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Thanks, JG66. Two points in the Legacy section possibly substantiate "one of the greatest songwriters of all time":
Horace Engdahl, a member of the Nobel Committee, described Dylan's place in literary history as: "a singer worthy of a place beside the Greek bards, beside Ovid, beside the Romantic visionaries, beside the kings and queens of the blues, beside the forgotten masters of brilliant standards."
Legacy also quotes Encyclopædia Britannica where his entry states: "Hailed as the Shakespeare of his generation, Dylan... set the standard for lyric writing." What do you think? Mick gold (talk) 17:23, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Well, the Britannica quote gets partway there, for sure. I'll keep a look out for other sources that really nail the point – rock histories and other reference books. I'd imagine Sounes or Heylin cover it, perhaps in a conclusion or closing chapter. JG66 (talk) 18:15, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
JG66 and other editors. I would be happy to drop the phrase "Widely regarded as one of the greatest songwriters of all time" so that the article begins:
Bob Dylan (born Robert Allen Zimmerman, May 24, 1941) is an American singer-songwriter, author and visual artist. Dylan has been a major figure in popular culture for more than 50 years. Much of his most celebrated work dates from the 1960s...
Seems a shame, because it's not a statement many people would question (I'd hope) – but yes, this is an FA so it might be the best idea. I did look in a couple of books; The New Rolling Stone Encyclopedia of Rock & Roll was one – no joy there. Further to previous suggestion, have you got the Sounes or Heylin books, perhaps? I've just had another idea ... will come back if anything comes to light. Cheers, JG66 (talk) 13:53, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
I changed it slightly to "Often regarded as one of the greatest songwriters of all time". The Rolling Stone article is enough to support this statement and there are no shortage of lists from other publications supporting the statement. The Legacy section also provides support for this statement. Therefore, I think the language is fine as it is. I added 'of all time' back because I found it was rather nonspecific saying he is 'considered one of the best songwriters'. I guess the alternative would be to call him one of the best contemporary songwriters or best of the 20th century. Let me know if there are issues with my edit. ‡ Єl Cid of Valencia18:12, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Is there some source that says Dylan has six children? Carolyn Dennis is quoted on her page as saying, "Bob Dylan has eight or nine children". Or is there some Misplaced Pages policy that covers this?--Jack Upland (talk) 05:14, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
There is, afaik, no Misplaced Pages policy about the number of children Dylan has. And neither would any policy prevent us from reporting the existence of children, should there be good sources for their existence.Brianyoumans (talk) 06:28, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
The Bob Dylan Encyclopedia (2006) by Michael Gray reports that Dylan has six children. Jesse, Anna, Samuel and Jakob were born to the marriage of Bob and Sara. Maria, daughter of Sara by a previous marriage, was adopted by Bob. (p. 199); Desiree Gabrielle Dennis-Dylan was born to marriage of BD with Carolyn Dennis. (p. 174) Mick gold (talk) 13:13, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
I don't see how a source from 2006 is a decisive authority in this, particularly if you are referring to various pages. When I referred to Misplaced Pages policy, I was thinking of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Does the fact that we can identify six children entitle us to say he has six children? Doesn't the evidence really say he has at least six?--Jack Upland (talk) 08:50, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
Surely the Misplaced Pages policy that covers this issue is WP:BLP which states:
We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by an inline citation to a reliable, published source. Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. Mick gold (talk) 09:49, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
The Drawn Blank Series was at the Halycon Gallery in London in 2008 (14 June to 13 July, I think). Not sure if this counts as a "major UK exhibition" before the National Portrait Gallery's one in 2013. There doesn't seem to be much online about this, but I can get a newspaper citation from NewsBank if it helps. (The Independent online article about it has a later date, but it was in the paper in 2008.) The Halycon Gallery also had "Bob Dylan on Canvas" from February 13 until April 10 2010. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:05, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
The Drawn Blank Series exhibition in Chemnitz in 2007 was the first major exhibition of Dylan's art. It seems unnecessary to add that this work was exhibited in London in 2008. Halcyon Gallery is a commercial gallery dedicated to selling art by Dylan (and others). Whereas National Portrait Gallery, London, is a prestigious public gallery which has exhibited work by Lucian Freud, Cezanne, Picasso. Best, Mick gold (talk) 06:13, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
Unproven allegations
The section entitled "Sexual assault allegation" gives undue weight to unproven allegations, which by their nature are extremely defamatory. The section should be removed until the allegations have been proven in a court of law. Khiikiat (talk) 00:04, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
@Khiikiat: Of course the sexual abuse allegations against Dylan are unproven. Nevertheless they are newsworthy and have been reported by BBC News, NBC News, Reuters, The Guardian and other major news outlets. I would favour reporting the allegation concisely along with Dylan spokesman's statement that "the 56-year-old claim is untrue and will be vigorously defended". To not report allegation could be construed as censorship. To add more material, eg Clinton Heylin's statement that allegation can't be true and Heylin's offer to be an expert witness, to me, runs the risk of WP:Recent which "can result in articles overburdened with documenting WP:RSBREAKING". That was reason for my revert of Heylin. I'd be interested in other editors' views. (btw I find this info on the lawyer behind the allegation interesting but I wouldn't add it to the article.) Best wishes, Mick gold (talk) 10:20, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
It is not censorship to await the outcome of the judicial process before permanently besmirching a person's reputation with allegations of paedophilia. The BBC etc. can do what they want, but Misplaced Pages should be held to a higher standard as it is arguably more influential. Many people do not pay attention to "the news", but they do look things up on Misplaced Pages. (It is interesting to note in this regard that Section 6 of the lawsuit has clearly been copied from Misplaced Pages.) As I have said, in my view, the whole section should be removed until the allegations have been proven in a court of law. But, if editors insist on including the allegations in the article, then some degree of balance (in the form of Heylin's comments) must be allowed. Khiikiat (talk) 11:07, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
In my opinion, Mick's assessment is spot on and true to Misplaced Pages's approach. The text you added to the article, Khiikiat, should be removed, because your original addition was reverted, and the next step should have been you coming here and gaining consensus (per WP:BRD). You can do it or someone else will. If it needs saying (and it really doesn't, because Misplaced Pages is about remaining neutral), I think most people watching this page would be great admirers of Bob Dylan; no one is out to glorify this controversy. And I think the comment from the Dylan spokesperson says it all – there is no need for the Clinton Heylin bandaid. JG66 (talk) 11:21, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
should wiki dedicate a section for every sexual assault claim against anyone just because the echo chamber of the media reports it? The harassment allegations against Britney were reported, it's not on her page. The assault allegations against Bieber were reported, it does not have its own section. Misplaced Pages is not a news site and Dylan was not even in the location during the period when this alleged assault supposedly happened. So wouldn't this be WP:RECENTISM and WP:NOTNEWS?
Waiting for the outcome of a case to determine if something should be added is not a reason to avoid its addition. There are plenty of examples of existing unproven allegations, and likely false, on other wiki articles. As far as WP:Undue is concerned, that could be the case in the future, but certainly doesn’t appear to be at the moment.TruthGuardians (talk) 13:25, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
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