| Revision as of 08:08, 2 November 2021 editMztourist (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users72,337 edits →Herbert V. Clark← Previous edit | Revision as of 14:02, 2 November 2021 edit undoDream Focus (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers39,010 editsNo edit summaryTag: 2017 wikitext editorNext edit → | ||
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| *'''Delete''' - on the grounds that the content in the sources given is too thin to meet the requirements of "Significant coverage". ] (]) 07:04, 2 November 2021 (UTC) | *'''Delete''' - on the grounds that the content in the sources given is too thin to meet the requirements of "Significant coverage". ] (]) 07:04, 2 November 2021 (UTC) | ||
| *'''Delete''' lack of significant coverage in RS (] · ]) ''']''' 07:40, 2 November 2021 (UTC) | *'''Delete''' lack of significant coverage in RS (] · ]) ''']''' 07:40, 2 November 2021 (UTC) | ||
| *Does anyone know how many combat missions a fighter pilot had to fly before being allowed to return from active duty? How many of them achieved this? Is it notable? Fighter pilots had to fly more missions than bomber crews before earning this. There should be a government website somewhere listing how many missions each pilot went on. ] 14:02, 2 November 2021 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 14:02, 2 November 2021
Herbert V. Clark
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Fails WP:BASIC. The last of the non-notable Tuskegee Airmen created by the same User (indeffed for copyvio) and dePRODed. Source 1 is CAF a User contribution site so not RS and doesn’t even mention him anyway. 2) a tabulation of aircraft losses, no detail about him other than confirming details of his shootdown. 3) the photo is widely published and is taken from the National Archives here: , but the National Archives caption doesn't contain any of the unreferenced detail in the blog (some of which is verified by other sources and some isn’t such as him leading a group of Italian resistance fighters) and so it is not RS. 4) this is a highly dubious source, it claims to be from a Boeing inhouse newsletter interview of his son, but I can't find an original copy and as its from a family member it is not independent. It contains a number of questionable claims including that he shot down 4 German planes, which I can’t confirm anywhere - strange as it would have made him the tied 2nd highest scoring Tuskegee airman. The claimed meeting with Eleanor Roosevelt is also unconfirmed anywhere else. As a result I am skeptical about all of it and think it should be disregarded. 5) Black Knights which I added is RS, but just confirms his class number. 6) Central Arkansas Library, RS but just a photo and one sentence, so no detail. 7) Tuskegee Airmen which I added is RS, but just states that he completed a tour in 1943. 8) The Tuskegee Airmen an illustrated history which I added is RS, but just confirms that he was shot down, evaded capture and eventually returned. There is also African Americans of Pine Bluff and Jefferson County which states that "Clark was shot down while flying over Germany on August 16, 1944. He evaded capture and led a small group of Italian partisans until he returned to the 99th on May 7, 1945." This is not supported by any reliable source, obviously he was shot down over Italy not Germany, presumably he didn’t speak Italian so its hard to see how he could have led a band of partisans. In accordance with WP:BEFORE I added several references after a Google search, but apart from that its all passing mentions. The sources accordingly do not meet WP:GNG as they don't amount to significant coverage as they don't address the topic directly and in detail WP:NOTINHERITED applies here, just belonging to a notable unit/organisation does not confer notability on all its members. The Tuskegee Airmen receiving the Congressional Gold Medal in 2006 doesn’t satisfy #1 of WP:ANYBIO and just being a Tuskegee Airman doesn’t satisfy #2 of ANYBIO. Mztourist (talk) 05:42, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Mztourist (talk) 05:43, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
- Delete Yet another poorly-sourced article about someone who would instantly fail BASIC if not for a unit affiliation which will lead people to argue otherwise. I'd support a merge of any RS information to a list of Tuskegee Airmen, but there isn't enough here to convey any sort of individual notability. Intothatdarkness 17:09, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Arkansas-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 20:17, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
- Keep Notable Tuskegee airman - integration pioneer. I am working on the article - added items of interest and references. In the meantime WP:AFDNOTCLEANUP. This is a notable Tuskegee airman who easily passes WP:N and any problems are WP:SURMOUNTABLE. Lightburst (talk) 21:06, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
- He was one of the Jackie Robinson's of the segregated United States Armed Forces. There were a total of 932 pilots who graduated from the Tuskegee program. But only, 355 served in active duty during World War Two as fighter pilots. Clark was one of these 355. He also scored what was one of the first African American BF 109 kills - notable because the Tuskegee Airmen were mostly relegated to escort duty. We have room for such notable military. He returned and became a flight instructor. Lightburst (talk) 22:57, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
- This is the "all Tuskegee Airmen are notable"/INHERITED argument again. Nothing notable about him. Your "improvements" are minimal and don't add any new reliable sources. The one newspaper story you added is after he returned from his first tour. I have doubts about his one claimed Me109 kill and need to see a better source for this. Mztourist (talk) 03:16, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- Disagree.(edit conflict) I added the Detroit Free Press - The Encyclopedia of Arkansas and other solid references. When a nominator has to type a 1000 word dissertation to obfuscate a deletion rationale, I think there is not a good reason to delete. And then there is that adhom in the rationale to poison the well - hoping to make the Herbert V. Clark article INHERIT the stain of the indeffed article starter. I will keep editing. I want to spend less time in the AfD, so I may not respond here. Nobody needs to see more over participation by me. Lightburst (talk) 03:38, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- You keep editing, but your sources are unreliable, this: confirms that he didn't shoot down a BF 109 as was stated in Encyclopedia of Arkansas (which was there originally). The "1000 word dissertation" is not "to obfuscate a deletion rationale" but to explain why the sources are so poor and dismiss spurious argument raised by you and others on the other Tuskegee Airmen AFDs. Mztourist (talk) 03:45, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- I will ask you not to remove RS information. If you leave the reference you cannot erase other items from that reference. And your requirement of 2 sources for each fact in the article is not a requirement. If it is a reliable source - all the information is reliable. At the moment I am the only one working on the article. I am going to reinstall the information and ask you not to erase it to favor your desire to delete. Lightburst (talk) 04:03, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- I have raised this on the Talk page but will respond here also. The source I provided was prepared by Dr. Daniel L. Haulman at the Air Force Historical Research Agency in January 2008. Clark isn't listed there as scoring a single aerial victory. Meanwhile you claim that Encyclopedia of Arkansas should be relied on for the claim that Clark scored a BF 109 kill. I don't agree, Air Force records are more reliable than Encyclopedia of Arkansas on this point. You state that my "requirement of 2 sources for each fact in the article is not a requirement", where did I say that? We have two completely conflicting claims, Either he did shoot down a BF 109 or he didn't. Find a better source for the BF 109 kill because Encyclopedia of Arkansas is wrong on this point. Mztourist (talk) 04:20, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- I will ask you not to remove RS information. If you leave the reference you cannot erase other items from that reference. And your requirement of 2 sources for each fact in the article is not a requirement. If it is a reliable source - all the information is reliable. At the moment I am the only one working on the article. I am going to reinstall the information and ask you not to erase it to favor your desire to delete. Lightburst (talk) 04:03, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- You keep editing, but your sources are unreliable, this: confirms that he didn't shoot down a BF 109 as was stated in Encyclopedia of Arkansas (which was there originally). The "1000 word dissertation" is not "to obfuscate a deletion rationale" but to explain why the sources are so poor and dismiss spurious argument raised by you and others on the other Tuskegee Airmen AFDs. Mztourist (talk) 03:45, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- Disagree.(edit conflict) I added the Detroit Free Press - The Encyclopedia of Arkansas and other solid references. When a nominator has to type a 1000 word dissertation to obfuscate a deletion rationale, I think there is not a good reason to delete. And then there is that adhom in the rationale to poison the well - hoping to make the Herbert V. Clark article INHERIT the stain of the indeffed article starter. I will keep editing. I want to spend less time in the AfD, so I may not respond here. Nobody needs to see more over participation by me. Lightburst (talk) 03:38, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- This is the "all Tuskegee Airmen are notable"/INHERITED argument again. Nothing notable about him. Your "improvements" are minimal and don't add any new reliable sources. The one newspaper story you added is after he returned from his first tour. I have doubts about his one claimed Me109 kill and need to see a better source for this. Mztourist (talk) 03:16, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- He was one of the Jackie Robinson's of the segregated United States Armed Forces. There were a total of 932 pilots who graduated from the Tuskegee program. But only, 355 served in active duty during World War Two as fighter pilots. Clark was one of these 355. He also scored what was one of the first African American BF 109 kills - notable because the Tuskegee Airmen were mostly relegated to escort duty. We have room for such notable military. He returned and became a flight instructor. Lightburst (talk) 22:57, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - I feel that this has enough reliable sources to pass the GNG. There are clearly several books and newspaper articles that refer to his contribution as one of the African-American pilots who flew combat missions. In particular, I'm sure that having an entry in the Encyclopedia of Arkansas, plus a lot more information in its Tuskegee airmen article, proves notability. No thread at the reliable sources noticeboard has ever concluded this encyclopedia to be an unreliable source. Misplaced Pages guidelines should be similar to those of other encyclopedias, so the fact that Clark has an entry in another major encyclopedia is of great significance when it comes to notability. Patiodweller (talk) 22:08, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
- As with the other similar AfDs that ended with deletion, the available coverage fails WP:ROUTINE and WP:RUNOFTHEMILL. He is included in the Encyclopedia of Arkansas because he came from there, but Misplaced Pages does not have 'born in Arkansas' as an indicator of notability. Avilich (talk) 23:08, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
- User:Patiodweller please read his entry at Encyclopedia of Arkansas which states: "Herbert V. Clark was a member of the Ninety-ninth Fighter Squadron from its inception. He is shown here as a major, the rank he held upon retirement. " and "Herbert Vanallen Clark (1919–2003) of Pine Bluff (Jefferson County) was born on March 16, 1919. Clark was the first Arkansan to have graduated as a cadet to become a fighter pilot. As a member of class 42-F, he was part of the pioneering group to go directly from the Civilian Pilot Training Program (CPTP) into basic training in 1942. Clark was the first Arkansan of color in the Army Air Corps to be assigned to the 553rd replacement training unit at Selfridge Field, a segregated military facility located about twenty-five miles north of Detroit, Michigan. Clark was a member of the Ninety-ninth Fighter Squadron from its inception and was one of the first black pilots to have shot down an ME-109, a premier German fighter." that's it, hardly indepth coverage. Also the statement that he shot down an ME-109 is clearly wrong as shown by the Air Force Historical Research Agency source that I added. Mztourist (talk) 03:05, 28 October 2021 (UTC) I also note that it is stated that on the Encyclopedia of Arkansas page that articles "are written by volunteer contributors who receive a payment of 5 cents per word." So there are serious questions about reliability especially if you are financially incentivised to write more. Mztourist (talk) 06:48, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- Keep there are enough book sources cited that if they do indeed cover the subject (WP:AGF), then this passes WP:GNG. WP:RUNOFTHEMILL is an essay and is subjective, whereas GNG is policy. NemesisAT (talk) 00:08, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- Bold of you to invoke AGF while misrepresenting GNG as policy, ignoring that I cited ROUTINE as well, and completely overlooking the nom's analysis of the sources. Presumably you didn't look at any of them. Avilich (talk) 01:10, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- User:NemesisAT you say "there are enough book sources cited that if they do indeed cover the subject (WP:AGF), then this passes WP:GNG" so you are just assuming that they cover him, meaning that you haven't actually looked at the sources. I don't see how you can !vote Keep when you haven't even read the sources. Mztourist (talk) 03:05, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- Keep, as there are enough book sourcesJackattack1597 (talk) 22:50, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
- Passing mentions in 3 books doesn't amount to significant coverage. Mztourist (talk) 02:55, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note to closer This fellow's contributions amount almost exclusively to indiscriminate drive-by keeps across multiple AfDs with no source examination and often a single minute apart from each other. It's safe to say he doesn't look at sources before voting. Avilich (talk) 03:38, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
- Delete I cant see anything in the article that makes him stand-out against the thousands of wartime airmen for a stand-alone article. MilborneOne (talk) 12:03, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ritchie333 18:30, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
- Weak delete The Encyclopedia of Arkansas has a paragraph on him in an article on Tuskeegees, and one blog post cited purports to reprint a Boeing company newspaper article which is a feature on him, but everything else is sporadic, with either single mentions or no mentions (like this source which has been added to the article) or just outright blog posts. -Indy beetle (talk) 01:58, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- Indy, if you look at the article's Talk Page I had to add that in to counter the incorrect claim in Encyclopedia of Arkansas that he had shot down an Me-109 and it also shows that his son's claim in the Boeing newsletter that he shot down 4 German planes was BS. Mztourist (talk) 03:06, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- Point taken, but I believe if a claim is highly doubtful either qualify it or leave it out. I don’t think it’s good practice to cite a source in article to discuss what does not appear in it. -Indy beetle (talk)
- Noted I have deleted the paragraph. Mztourist (talk) 08:08, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- Keep Page 74 Lieutenants William A Cambell, Span Watson, and Herbet V. Clark became the first Tuskegee Airmen to complete their tour it combat and move on to other assignments. As mentioned in this AFD already, not all of them got to be fighter pilots, that quite a notable achievement given the racism of the day. Getting a Congressional Gold Medal proves someone is notable enough to have a Misplaced Pages article. The fact that others got it does not make it less important. Dream Focus 03:37, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- They completed a tour, how is that "a notable achievement"? As has been repeatedly stated a unit award of the Congressional Gold Medal does not satisfy #1 of ANYBIO. Mztourist (talk) 03:52, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- Clark did not get an individual gold medal from Congress, his unit did. -Indy beetle (talk) 06:50, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - based on the arguments made above, it seems there is sufficient reasoning to keep this article. - wolf 03:44, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- Delete - on the grounds that the content in the sources given is too thin to meet the requirements of "Significant coverage". GraemeLeggett (talk) 07:04, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- Delete lack of significant coverage in RS (t · c) buidhe 07:40, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- Does anyone know how many combat missions a fighter pilot had to fly before being allowed to return from active duty? How many of them achieved this? Is it notable? Fighter pilots had to fly more missions than bomber crews before earning this. There should be a government website somewhere listing how many missions each pilot went on. Dream Focus 14:02, 2 November 2021 (UTC)