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Revision as of 23:34, 7 December 2021

Trains Start‑class Low‑importance

Trains Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Trains, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to rail transport on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. See also: WikiProject Trains to do list and the Trains Portal.TrainsWikipedia:WikiProject TrainsTemplate:WikiProject Trainsrail transport Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

England Start‑class Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of England on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EnglandWikipedia:WikiProject EnglandTemplate:WikiProject EnglandEngland-related Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Separate article

I do agree a separate article is needed for this topic as it is high profile and attracted significant interest and controversy GRALISTAIR (talk) 21:24, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Although the plan published has the maps in which can of course be referenced in this article, I think it would be worthwhile to include a map or even two in this article. What do others think? GRALISTAIR (talk) 14:30, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

The main page is still calling this a Stub. I really do not think it is now and definitely will not be shortly. It has already been rated as start class GRALISTAIR (talk) 15:36, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

I have now destubbed the article. At close to 600 words and growing and multiple links to/from it clearly is no longer a stub. GRALISTAIR (talk) 19:22, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Please read the Integrated Rail Plan

For those too eager to revert and cut, I advise you to read in full the IRP. Also distinguish between opinion and analysis. Wisdom-inc (talk) 20:18, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

I think there is a lot of hard work by editors gone into this article. That said we must abide by Misplaced Pages rules. It does not matter how many times people have read a > 100 page document we need to keep the tone encyclopedic, balanced and neutral. It should also be well referenced and not contain original research . Some sections have no references. We can cite the document repeatedly but what would be helpful is if page numbers were cited in the references which would help a great deal. Above all let us not let this article drag into an edit war GRALISTAIR (talk) 00:01, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Editor Kitchen Knife, was deleting not knowing what was in the IRP - the spat regarding Runcorn being removed shows that. Wisdom-inc (talk) 19:46, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

See --Kitchen Knife (talk) 00:06, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

We know what original research is thank you. Wisdom-inc (talk) 19:46, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

You seem not to understand what Misplaced Pages means by the term or what it entails as a lot of what you have written comes under the term synthesis.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 20:00, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I know exactly what original research means. Thank you! Wisdom-inc (talk) 23:30, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you - exactly GRALISTAIR (talk) 00:16, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Integrated Rail Plan.

1. HS2 is a London-Wigan line (WCML relief line);
2. HS2 and WCML branch into each other at *four* points;
3. Branches off HS2 spine to: Manchester, Warrington, Birmingham, Litchfield, Crewe (two) and East Midlands Parkway;
4. HS2 serves direct on high speed rail to: Wigan, Warrington, Birmingham, Manchester, Crewe and London;
5. Two airports served: Birmingham and subject to local funding, Manchester;
6. Leeds and Newcastle use upgraded ECML to London;
7. All eastern cities use Birmingham-East Mids HS2 branch to access Birmingham;
8. MML upgrade is a few years away;
9. Sheff, Nottm and Derby to London on MML will equal HS2 journey times;
10. In a few years, Sheff, Nottm and Derby will be equalling HS2 journey times to London on MML;
11. No HS2 branches to southern English destinations;
12. HS2 trains will use NPR high speed track from Millington junction, between Manchester and Warrington, to Warrington;
13. Warrington to have a new station;
14. Energy used on HS2 track approx' double as classic rail track;
15. Runcorn removed from HS2 services;
16. High speed NPR/HS2 track from Warrington to Marsden in Yorks;

The above are facts. Now observations:

1. When HS2 reaches East Mids Parkway in approx 10-15 years time, Sheff, Notts and Derby trains will have been on HS2 journey times to London on the MML for about a decade.
2. The prospect of Sheff/Notts/Derby to London services being transferred to HS2 track to use twice the energy for no gain, is very low.
3. The slots released on HS2 will go to NW cities like Stoke, Chester, Liverpool, etc? Wisdom-inc (talk) 19:39, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Your Observations are not reliable for inclusion on Misplaced Pages.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 20:00, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I never stated they were. It was for general understanding. Wisdom-inc (talk) 23:32, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Those 16 + 3 points read like personal analysis of the plan and for now I am siding with removing them from the article. I also agree that the article needs more references. Given the complexity of the topic, the one document can be referenced but this needs to be done with more granularity. Rather, references should be given to individual numbered paragraphs/pages e.g. paragraph 3.52 page 94. Writing a number of bullet points without referencing each one to a specific numbered paragraph/page is no better than original research. 10mmsocket (talk) 20:59, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I did not state putting observations in. Facts are facts - taken from the IRP. There is only one reference, the IRP. Wisdom-inc (talk) 23:26, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

For now I see that both editors have ceased editing the article. That is a good thing - don't go back to it for at least a day as (whatever the rights or wrongs in your opinion) you have both busted 3RR. However, rather than go running to WP:AN/3RR I think it would be better to discuss things further here. Edit the article as before though and I will immediately seek external help. Be nice, discuss, reach consensus. 10mmsocket (talk) 21:21, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Editor Kitchen Knife

Seems like you are developing an attitude. Best cut it out. Wisdom-inc (talk) 20:12, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

If you carry on like this you will be reported.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 20:16, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

That goes both ways. You started it by deleting text saying it was not in the IRP (mainly Runcorn), when it was. Then you to cover yourself ask for a ref. The whole article is about one document which is referenced. The only ref should be if it is not in the IRP. You are rarely constructive. You have a history of attitude. Wisdom-inc (talk) 20:24, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

It seems you also need to read Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 20:27, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

DO NOT keep representing Wiki help pages to me to hide your behaviour. I gave no personal attack. Just an observation on your attitude and disruption. It would be better if you were constructive working with people. Wisdom-inc (talk) 20:38, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I've pointed out that several of your editors do not conform to the standards set out for Misplaced Pages, they still don't. --Kitchen Knife (talk) 20:43, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

See my comment in the previous section. Let's be civil, discuss and reach consensus. 10mmsocket (talk) 21:22, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

1. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1034359/integrated-rail-plan-for-the-north-and-midlands-print.pdf

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