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Revision as of 14:20, 14 December 2021

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	1993 Michael Jackson sexual abuse allegations has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones Date Process Result July 15, 2008 Good article nominee Not listed August 23, 2008 Good article nominee Listed May 28, 2021 Good article reassessment Kept
Current status: Good article

This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report. The week in which this happened: June 25 to July 1, 2017 (14th)

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Meeting in the shop

Regarding this edit: the information about Chandler and Evan meeting in the shop was sourced to Consequence of Sound, which says: Dave Schwartz, Jordie Chandler’s step-father and June Chandler-Schwartz’s husband, met with Evan Chandler at Schwartz’s Rent-A-Wreck shop. The purpose of this meeting was to discuss Jordie’s relationship with Jackson. Unbeknownst to Evan Chandler, Dave Schwartz taped the phone call. (This is confusing, of course - what phone call?)

This Consequence of Article article is also used to cite the transcripts of the conversation. But it seems we think the article is mistaken so we're not using it for the "meet in the shop" claim. So we're cherrypicking claims in this source, using it for some things (the transcript quotes) but not others. This is getting really messy. Popcornfud (talk) 15:18, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

For both, we could just used the longer more detail conversation from Fisher’s book which has everything above and then more. It too also talks about the recorded phone call between Evan and David.TruthGuardians (talk) 02:57, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Such blatant bias

This article is so hilariously biased in Jackson's favour. Almost every sentence is followed up with an attempt at exoneration, a "but...". What an utter joke. It's so obvious that this page was written by Jackson's supporters. Misplaced Pages isn't about presenting arguments or defending certain positions.

Isn't it convenient that almost every source that speaks against him is labelled as "disreputable" or "unreliable", while those that proclaim his innocence are welcomed indiscriminately. If you want to know the actual, objective truth about Jackson, search for the "MJfacts" website.

The simple fact is that only a child molesterer would own books full of nude young boys, and the fact is that such books WERE found in Jackson's home, some of them were even signed by him. There is nothing "artistic" about such filth, that's such a pathetically transparent excuse. The fact that said books are somehow "legal" to possess doesn't change anything. 139.168.130.225 (talk) 01:33, 2 October 2021 (UTC).

This article is one of the most neutral and balanced articles on Misplaced Pages that uses actual reliable sources. The facts fall the way the do because this is how they are presented in reliable sources. This article has been worked on by many, many editors, few pro-MJ, most neutral, and some anti-Jackson editors. It’s a GA!

The website you mention above is a blog that has been narrated in such a way that doesn’t present the facts but an author’s very own fantasies. The website is twisted and horribly unbalanced. It will never be used as a source because it’s the exact opposite of objective.” For that matter, fan blogs aren’t used as sources for some of the same reasons why anti-fan blogs are ignored.

Jackson was not a child molester. There is no court verdict, intelligence agency conclusion, or evidence to suggest that he was. The legal artistic books you reference are in the United States Library of Congress and also shown to the jurors. One of which is actually owned by my best friend’s grandmother. I’m sure she doesn’t care that you think she is a child molester.TruthGuardians (talk) 13:56, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

The article is balanced adhering to WP:NEUTRAL. The reason why sources referring to exculpatory evidence are included is that such evidence exists. That MJFacts website does not qualify as a reliable source and looking at it, it is - let's just say - hilariously biased against Jackson. The books you are referring to were presented in court by the prosecution and the inscription you referred to was actually exculpatory evidence. Hard to see why he would even sign a book if he knows it's incriminating. It was never clarified how and why the books ended up in Jackson's place, who send them to him and why, but merely owning a book does not mean someone knows its content let alone all photos in it. Jackson's side of the story is that he didn't remember those books, which is plausible given how many he got and it was more than 10 years earlier they were sent to him. He also had books with photos of nude males and females alike ranging from babies to elderly people. Taken together the context of those books is not pedophilia but general interest in art photography otherwise we should argue, as the prosecutor did, that Jackson owning a gay adult book must mean he was gay, but that contradicts the prosecution's other argument that he replaced boys once they reached puberty. So we should be careful to jump to conclusions about what books in a home full of books indicate. What does a book like Poo-Chi by Mayumi Lake say about Jackson's sexual interest, for example? PinkSlippers (talk) 20:20, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

It is most certainly not true that only a child molester can have those books. One can receive books from various sources and not even open them. Jackson's book collection hardly proves his sexual taste, one way or the other, as he had everything from a gay adult sex book to sadomaso art featuring women, photography books with nude pictures of both genders yound and old. If he signed one of those books that would suggest he did not notice the questionable pictures which were a few among hundreds in that book. Unless you believe he wanted people like you to be able to say: you see? He signed it so he had to look through that book and enjoyed the pictures.castorbailey (talk) 13:42, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Mentioning Leaving Neverland

I agree that the further allegations section may be fitting for this article. I agree that maybe Wade’s and Jame’s allegations should at least be mention. What I don’t agree with is Leaving Neverland being their allegations. It’s not. Their legal allegations, which completely contradicts a lot of what they say in the film, is what should be mentioned. When some one mentions allegations levied against someone now, do we start using films or do we stick to the legal facts? TruthGuardians (talk) 13:17, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't see the point of a further allegations section at all. This page is about the 1993 case only. If we include a further allegation section then why just cherry-pick the Robson Safechuck and Arvizo allegations? By the same token we could include the 1995 Canadian boy, Terry George, Jane Doe's allegations, Jacobshagen's allegations, Daniel Kapon, Joe Bartucci, Eddie Reynoza, Michelle Flower. Going on about Leaving Neverland is undue promotion, since that was not even where Robson Safechuck first made their allegations. By the same token we could mention Michael Jackson's secret world where Terry George made allegations.castorbailey (talk) 13:59, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

I see your point, and you put forth a great argument. You make it difficult for me to counter-argue, but I felt it being there does 2 thing: first it points out that Jackson only had 4 accusers of similar allegations. There’s a lot of misinformation and pure lies about him having dozens of accusers. Secondly, it’s a section that may clarify for the readers that this accuser is different than these accusers. I see your point of view and now I’m a little conflicted on the section altogether. TruthGuardians (talk) 14:32, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

It's fact that Jackson had more than four accusers, five who never even met him, Jacobshagen, Jane Doe, Star Arvizo and Terry George who accused him then backtracked, dropped lawsuits. I don't see why Robson Safechuck Arvizo should be singled out as further allegations when there were others. If the point of this section is to give a full picture of the allegations against Jackson it certainly does not do that castorbailey (talk) 15:32, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

The way I see it, the various allegations against MJ can be organised around three key events - the original allegations (covered in most detail in 1993 child sexual abuse accusations against Michael Jackson), the charges brought against Jackson a few years later (covered in most detail in Trial of Michael Jackson), and the release of Leaving Neverland. All of these events drew wide commentary and had an enormous impact on Jackson's life and legacy.

It's totally appropriate to mention these events in all three articles, and link to them. They're clearly related subjects that inform each other. To take a random example, look at the article about the TR-808, a drum machine used by Michael Jackson. The article (and lead) mentions that it was followed later by another drum machine, the TR-909, even though the 808 article is not actually about the 909. This is standard organizational strategy for Misplaced Pages articles.

I don't know anything about the other allegations mentioned by Jimcastor ("1995 Canadian boy, Terry George" et al) but these 1) don't seem to have been covered in extensive detail by reliable sources, compared to the other allegations, 2) don't seem as important as the other events and 3) don't have Misplaced Pages articles organized around them. I therefore don't believe it's cherrypicking to not mention those in the lead, etc.

BTW: contrary to accusations in edit summaries, I'm not attempting to "promote" the film Leaving Neverland by linking to the article about it - for the record I think it's a crummy documentary. I'm just taking readers to the Misplaced Pages article where those allegations are covered in most detail, including the backlash, impact on Jackson's legacy, etc. Popcornfud (talk) 18:18, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

I too agree that George and all the others doesn’t pass the notability test. I also don’t believe that those allegations are same the same in nature to the the more notable ones. Because of rules about talking about living persons, I won’t say anything too much, but apparently the FBI, CPS, and other lawful entities didn’t find their claims to be truthful or important enough to warrant any real actions. I also agree that Popcorn about how Misplaced Pages works, because that’s exactly how it works. I still sit on the fence on how it should be mentioned. Should it be mention as it is here, where it sticks to the facts, or should it be mentioned with LN, considering that no one really batted a serious eye at their allegations until the film?TruthGuardians (talk) 00:15, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Demand for a film production deal

Regarding this edit, I removed this information, per WP:VERIFY, because I couldn't verify it in the source provided. I'm certain it's true (and relevant to the article), but we need a reliable source.

Jimcastor has now added five sources to this claim. Of these, three redirect to a generic archives page - it's not clear to me how to access the articles that supposedly contain this information. Is there a way to get to the relevant articles?

Of the other sources added by Jimcastor, only one of them makes reference to the film production deal, but does not say 20 million. It's also not the simplest source for our purposes, as it requires us to unpick the summary of a phone recording presented in the article.

It should be possible to find a single RS for this claim rather than tagging it with five sources, which creates a WP:CITEOVERKILL situation. Can we work together to find this? Popcornfud (talk) 22:08, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

It’s important to show possible motive(s) from Evan. Some will argue that his motive was to protect Jordan. Some will disagree and say that his motive was money and this request for money proves the related extortion claims that the Jackson’s camp levied against Evan. We do know that that even before then, Evan demanded 1 million dollars from MJ. If Michael Jackson had been guilty he would have paid Evan in August of 1993 when Chandler first demanded money and threatened him. This accusation would have never went public and 1 million dollars would have prevented it. It’s easy to believe that this turned to 20 million dollars.

I didn’t find it particularly difficult to access the archives, but could see how some could. I also agree that RS are in place to support this addition, but 5 sources aren’t needed. Can we narrow it down to the very best one or 2 out of the 5?TruthGuardians (talk) 14:20, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

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