Talk:Seljuk Empire: Difference between revisions

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	Persian influence in the empire doesn't change the national identity of the country. Just like British Empire had an Indian population, Turkic Seljuks had a Persian population. Seljuks are Turkic.] (]) 19:53, 24 February 2022 (UTC)		Persian influence in the empire doesn't change the national identity of the country. Just like British Empire had an Indian population, Turkic Seljuks had a Persian population. Seljuks are Turkic.] (]) 19:53, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
	::"Seljuks are Turkic" According to whom? ] (]) 20:09, 24 February 2022 (UTC)		::"Seljuks are Turkic" According to whom? ] (]) 20:09, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
			According to anyone that has common sense. Western Göktürks --> Oghuz Yabgu --> Seljuks --> Ottomans --> Turkey. It would be absurd to think that a shariah law country(Iran) can have a decent, neutral history education. Iran was ruled by Turks for 1000 years. Misplaced Pages is not a neutral place, at least for now, so all these information are the result of edit warring and vandalism. Persian people don't want to admit that they were ruled by Turks for 1000 years and their 'heroes' were Turks. Safavids, Afsharids, Seljuks and many more were Turkic Empires. Tuğrul and Çağrı beys founded Seljuks, Alp Arslan and Kılıç Arslan were most famous rulers, just by their name, one can say the were completely Turkic. But of course, shariah says otherwise doesn't it?] (]) 06:16, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

	== Alternate names/spellings in lead ==		== Alternate names/spellings in lead ==

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THE NAME OF SELJUQ

The name of Seljuq comes from SALCIK -after Selcuk... Sal meaning in Turkish=RAFT and cık=little (supplementary) Selçuk=Little RAFT.. and Raft was very important for Seljuqs.For example Oğuz Turks couldnt pass to Volga river without Raft.Just winters when river freezed. Sorry for Bad english but anybody dont talk about their name origin. And Source "Jean Paul Roux" his book: Faune et Flore sacrees p134, and Turkish writer Doğan Avcıoğlu History Of Turks p372" Please add this information. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.224.87.216 (talk • contribs) 11:34, January 22, 2008 (UTC) – Please sign your posts!

Issue with Turko Persian label

The term Turko-Persian itself is flawed as it is very narrow. Japan was influenced by Chinese culture probably a lot more than the Seljuk Empire was influenced by Persian culture but we don't call the Japanese Empire and Japanese-Chinese Empire. It is a misleading term. It should not be in the lede. The Seljuks also had influences from various other cultures. Not to mention that Persian culture itself has been highly influenced by Arab culture. Let's avoid such narrow terms. Historynerdboy (talk) 04:50, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Agreed Göktürk Gmc (talk) 14:09, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

WP:JDLI and WP:OR. Sources say otherwise. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:27, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

I have checked the sources and no where do they generalize the entire Seljuk Empire as Turko-Persian, rather they reference administration and linguistic influences from Persia. It can be said Japan Empire's administration was influenced by China, does that make it Japanese-Chinese Empire? It can be said Eastern Roman Empire was using Latin language until 620. Does that make modern Greeks as Italians? Historynerdboy (talk) 08:25, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Persian language has over 2 million Arabic origin words. Should all Islamic Persian empires and dynasties be labelled as Perso-Arabic? Administration within these empires have been molded by Islamic ideals and practices and even administration. Islamic Persian Empires and Dynasties employed the Shura system of limited government which comes from Prophet Muhammad (S) and was originally done by Arabs. Historynerdboy (talk) 23:02, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a WP:SOAPBOX. The sources disagree with you, and you've no (reliable) sources to backup your statements, please stop this. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:07, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

I am speaking of the sources. None of them say "Turko Persian" rather they reference administration and language which are mentioned above. Historynerdboy (talk) 23:12, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

I mean, the fact that the Grousset citation alone says "Turko Persian" really says much about the validity of your statement. That and this comment of yours . Please read WP:JDLI, WP:OR and WP:SOAPBOX. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:54, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

I see that at the end, but I do not think it is as reliable as the other sources and is much more outdated. Not to mention it seems quite Orientalist. Regardless, my points on the sources are still valid and I believe labeling it as a Turko-Persian empire violates Misplaced Pages's WP:POV policy. I think such Iranian chauvinism is not right. We need some real experts without such bias here. Historynerdboy (talk) 07:10, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

I think HistoryofIran has already summed this up. This point has already received plenty of supporting sources, and indeed this is a commonly-mentioned point by historians, reflecting the cultural and political context of the region at the time when the Seljuks moved into it. There are entire books on this topic alone (here's one easily-found example). Nothing has been presented here to seriously challenge this. R Prazeres (talk) 05:39, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

The fact that you don't think it's reliable (presumably because it shatters your biased worldview) does not counter its validity. Unless you think Western historians are "Iranian chauvinists" in some bizarre conspiracy theory there's no reason to believe they have any bias towards or against you. The reason why Seljuks are considered Turko-Persian is pretty obvious; their rulers spoke Persian at court and wrote Persian in most documents and the entire administrative division of the state was Persian (with Nizam al-Mulk being the most famous example). You've yet to provide any sourcing or counter-argument to this besides WP:IDONTLIKEIT. --Qahramani44 (talk) 18:45, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

As a state system, the Seljuks are a steppe type state.

they only adapted some bureaucratic systems from Iran to this state model (Şihne, vizier, divan etc.)

but the dynasty never told him that he was descended from Persian or any other Iranian people.

At that time, it was used as a Persian lingua franca with Southeast Asian dynasties, Central Asian khanates and Georgians and Armenian kingdoms.

With this logic, shall we call the Persian-Georgian kingdom also for the Georgian kingdoms?

Shall we call Southeast Asian kingdoms are Indo-Persian?

which western researchers consider a Persian origin to be among the founders of the Seljuks?

this phrase clearly has a pan-Iranist perspective then write the same "Turko-Persian" for the Safavids, whose founders were Azerbaijani and Turkmen in origin. Burtigin (talk) 16:43, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Persian influence in the empire doesn't change the national identity of the country. Just like British Empire had an Indian population, Turkic Seljuks had a Persian population. Seljuks are Turkic.Hsynylmztr (talk) 19:53, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

"Seljuks are Turkic" According to whom? Dimadick (talk) 20:09, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

According to anyone that has common sense. Western Göktürks --> Oghuz Yabgu --> Seljuks --> Ottomans --> Turkey. It would be absurd to think that a shariah law country(Iran) can have a decent, neutral history education. Iran was ruled by Turks for 1000 years. Misplaced Pages is not a neutral place, at least for now, so all these information are the result of edit warring and vandalism. Persian people don't want to admit that they were ruled by Turks for 1000 years and their 'heroes' were Turks. Safavids, Afsharids, Seljuks and many more were Turkic Empires. Tuğrul and Çağrı beys founded Seljuks, Alp Arslan and Kılıç Arslan were most famous rulers, just by their name, one can say the were completely Turkic. But of course, shariah says otherwise doesn't it?Hsynylmztr (talk) 06:16, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Alternate names/spellings in lead

There's been a bit of edit-warring on alternate names in the lead regarding whether or not to mention "Saljuq" as a second spelling. There are quite a lot of different spellings/variations of the name and of course "Seljuk" is certainly the most common. The alternatives, in no particular order, include: Seljuq, Saljuq, Saljuk, Saljuqid, Seljuqid, Seljukid, and maybe more. Some of these must be pretty marginal, but suffice to say there are multiple ones that are used in reliable sources and that therefore could be mentioned. Can I suggest that these names be mentioned in a footnote instead (e.g. right after "or the Seljuk Empire")? That way the lead doesn't get bogged down in mentioning all the different spellings and there's plenty of room to add many names in a footnote without arguing too much about which ones should be prioritized. Cheers, R Prazeres (talk) 16:57, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
PS: If a consensus is reached here, we may also want to consider whether it can be applied to the lead of the Seljuk dynasty article as well. R Prazeres (talk) 18:05, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

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