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Move page to Saint Francis Hospital shooting

I think we should move the page to something like Saint Francis Hospital shooting because the shooting took place in the Natalie Building, which is on the campus of Saint Francis Hospital. Grey13z (talk) 12:26, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

The vast majority of readers don't have a clue where in the world that hospital is, and there are other hospitals of the same name. Tulsa clinic shooting or Tulsa hospital shooting would be better titles. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 17:31, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 2 June 2022 (2)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Warren Clinic shooting → Tulsa Hospital shooting – This name better summarizes the shooting in the title. This follows guidance from WP:NCEVENTS. It gives the name of the city and type of location where the shooting took place. Per the guidelines, the year is not needed as this is the only mass shooting that has taken place at a Tulsa Hospital. Sheehanpg93 (talk) 19:25, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose as written. I would support 2022 Tulsa Hospital shooting. The guidance at WP:NCEVENTS, particularly WP:NOYEAR does not support this interpretation. NCEVENTS is clear that In the majority of cases, the title of the article should contain the following three descriptors: When, Where, What. For the purposes of this article, the NOYEAR exception only applies to events that are identifiable in a long term historical perspective, primarily through a WP:COMMONNAME. For an event that occurred less than twenty four hours ago, at time of writing, we are far too close to try and use a WP:CRYSTALBALL to guess at what the COMMONNAME will be. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:35, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

  My only objection to this is that these are the only notable shootings that have taken place at a Tulsa Hospital, which would make 2022 Tulsa Hospital Shooting less WP:CONCISE. Also, we have to discuss how likely this event is to occur again, which is something that is also named at WP:NOYEAR. Sheehanpg93 (talk) 19:43, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

  A key part of CONCISE is to balance brevity with clarity. As a title "Tulsa Hospital shooting" only informs the reader that there was a shooting at a hospital in Tulsa. It doesn't inform the reader at a glance when that event took place. Adding the year provides that clarity, by informing the reader that there was a shooting at a hospital in Tulsa in 2022.

  The text at NOYEAR does not state that it applies when there have been no other notable shootings at the same location. What it actually says is Some articles do not need a year for disambiguation when, in historic perspective, the event is easily described without it. Historic perspective requires time to develop, something which we won't have 24 hours after the event in question. Historic perspective is why we can name events like Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting and Virginia Tech Shooting without the year, because those events have common names and the article titles broadly matches them. Though even those articles have issues, Sandy Hook is the common media name for that shooting but it's also the name for village which is in itself notable, and the Virgina Tech Shooting page requires a hatnote to clarify which shooting it was.

  So the question is, in ten years time will someone be confused by the article title? As it stands today, I'd say yes. Without precognition or a crystal ball we don't know how this event will be referred to next week, let alone next year or longer. As such, until we have a clear COMMONNAME, we should follow the When, Where, What naming convention that NCEVENTS says should apply for the majority of articles like these. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:00, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

  I understand that, and agree with you now.

  Let me ask you this. Would it be bad form to edit the move request to 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting? Sheehanpg93 (talk) 20:06, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

  That I don't know. As we're the only editors who've commented so far, it might be OK. But I don't know for certain. I know one editor has already edited the title to address the capitalisation issue on "shooting", though that was more of a minor spelling/grammar issue. It might be best to ask at WP:HELPDESK for an answer on this. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:09, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

  The text at WP:RMCLOSE says a move request proposer may close their own move request as withdrawn if no one has commented yet, or if opposition is unanimous. As no-one else has commented bar us, I think you'd be OK to close and re-file it. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:11, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 2 June 2022 (3)

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved as proposed. There's unanimous consensus that the current title is not ideal in terms of our guidelines. Among the editors who discussed the matter explicitly, though, there's much less agreement on the auxiliary question of whether the year should be included. Supporters note that WP:NCE generally prefers titles that contain the "when", while opposers argue that a shorter title is unambiguous. This issue, which has been discussed recently at various other forums without a clear consensus, ultimately comes down to "a judgement call", so given the split in numbers I can't say that there's a clear consensus here either. In this sort of situation – where everyone supports a move but there's no agreement on which particular title is best – WP:NOGOODOPTIONS simply tells me to "pick the best title of the options available". In this case, I'll move the article to 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting, as proposed, simply because including the year is the default per WP:NCE. To be clear, "while consensus has rejected the former title...there is no consensus for the title actually chosen". Feel free to start a follow-up RM focusing specifically on whether to include the year, although a better option might be to obtain a global consensus by starting a well-advertised RfC on this issue. (closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 21:34, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Warren Clinic shooting → 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting – This name better summarizes the shooting in the title. This follows guidance from WP:NCEVENTS. It gives the name of the year (since at point of writing, WP:COMMMONNAME is unknown) city, and type of location where the shooting took place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheehanpg93 (talk • contribs) 20:19, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

So are we gonna move it? No one has objected, and 15 different editors support it. Are we gonna move it to 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting or just Tulsa hospital shooting? Grey13z (talk) 16:52, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

You'll have to wait until the closer feels enough votes have come in. Love of Corey (talk) 01:29, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• Support Follows the guidance at WP:NCE, and is more informative to editors and readers who are not familiar with localities within Tulsa. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:24, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support It makes sense to me to move to "2022 Tulsa hospital shooting". SethWhales 21:13, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support I definitely agree that it should be changed to this, it makes sense as it fits with guidelines and most people who aren't native to the area where it took place won't know what Warren Clinic is. However, I think it should just be 'Tulsa hospital shooting' rather than having the year. Grey13z (talk) 21:23, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

  "Tulsa Hospital" is not the proper name, Warren Clinic is. That is why it is not capitalized. Sheehanpg93 (talk) 22:12, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

• Support sounds better; "Warren Clinic" might not be as well known. Nythar (talk) 22:44, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support Maybe just Tulsa hospital shooting or maybe 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 01:25, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support Per Sideswipe9th. —Sirdog (talk) 02:05, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support - Warren Clinic isn't even a well-known place. The suggested title is a lot better. Love of Corey (talk) 03:10, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
• Move to Tulsa hospital shooting because this is the only shooting at a hospital in Tulsa. The vast majority of people have no idea where in the world Warren Clinic is, because it's only known locally. The year isn't needed for clarification, because there's nothing to disambiguate it from. No-one wants to move Oklahoma City bombing to 1995 Oklahoma City bombing. Adding the year to the title falsely implies that there have been other notable shootings at hospitals in Tulsa. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 04:11, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support per above. Moncrief (talk) 04:32, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support As Jim Michael 2 said, the vast majority of people in the world, and even in the United States, have no idea where the Warren Clinic is. It is not a well-known place. Crossover1370 (talk | contribs) 04:39, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support I previously supported renaming the article the "Saint Francis Hospital shooting", but I much prefer this proposed title. When I proposed that original rename it hadn't even occurred to me that there are Saint Francis hospitals all across the world and thus that name would also be problematic. RaskBunzzz (talk) 05:08, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support per above. Solid proposal. DeVosMax 06:05, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support per above. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 14:33, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

  But the preferred title would be Tulsa hospital shooting because this only happened once. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 14:34, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

• Support. The name fits the guidelines and it will be easier to find.`~HelpingWorld~` 16:18, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom. and Sideswipe9th.A. Randomdude0000 (talk) 16:36, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
• To those saying “it’s only happened once,” yes, you are correct, but following naming conventions, we cannot assume that it would be recognizable 2 years from now. There has not been enough time for a WP:COMMONNAME to occur. I’m not suggesting that this be the final name of this event, but as of today, this is the best name following naming conventions. Sheehanpg93 (talk) 18:28, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

I definitely think that we shouldn't include the year, if you look more recent examples like Indianapolis FedEx shooting or Robb Elementary School shooting, they don't include the year, and the year should really only be put in for a situation like this if another shooting happens at a hospital in Tulsa, which is unlikely to happen again soon. Grey13z (talk) 12:29, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

2022 Tulsa hospital shooting won't be any more recognisable than Tulsa hospital shooting. If you mention the Tulsa hospital shooting to people years in the future, they'll either remember it or won't. None of the people who don't remember it will when then remember it if you then say to them 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 19:07, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

We don't write Misplaced Pages articles for people who remember events, that is not the purpose of an encyclopaedia. We write the articles to inform the readers about a topic or event. In ten years from now, at a glance what title is more informative to someone who may or may not have any background knowledge to the event? "Tulsa hospital shooting" informs that reader that there was a shooting at a hospital in Tulsa. "2022 Tulsa hospital shooting" informs that reader that there was a shooting at a hospital in Tulsa in the year 2022.

I know in the past you've mentioned Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting and Virginia Tech Shooting as examples of events that don't require the year to be instantly recognisable. It's true that Sandy Hook has entered into political discourse as a milestone event, it has a lasting legacy and is frequently brought up in the context of other school shootings in the US. This is also somewhat true for the Virginia Tech shooting, however because of how that article is named it requires a hatnote to distinguish it from the other shooting that happened on that campus a year earlier in 2006. However not all such shootings have the same long lasting notoriety. For every Sandy Hook, there is a less notable shooting like 2013 Santa Monica shooting, 2013 Hialeah shooting, 2010 Appomattox shootings, or 2003 Ennis shooting.

We won't know the lasting legacy of this shooting, or any of the other ones you and I have commented on recently for quite some time. We do not know if this event will become synonymous like Sandy Hook, or if it will be of little lasting legacy like the 2003 Ennis shooting. Until that becomes clear, we should err on the side of caution for all articles like this one, and follow the naming convention laid out at WP:NCEVENTS of When, Where, What. That does not prevent us from renaming the article one or five or ten year from now, when we will know the lasting historical legacy. But for now, we do not know it, and we should not attempt to guess it. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:38, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

The title only needs to be unambiguous & clearly identifiable. We shouldn't aim to give unnecessary info in titles; if we did, we'd add various other things, such as month, perpetrator, motive etc. Many people looking up attacks won't remember the year nor enter it when they search for it, so it's superfluous. They'll usually remember the location & method. The 2013 Hialeah shooting needs the year in its title to disambiguate it from the 2021 Hialeah shooting. The other examples you give don't need the year and it doesn't help readers. For example, most people won't remember when the Santa Monica shooting happened, so they won't use the year when searching for it. However, people looking it up will almost all remember that it was a shooting in Santa Monica. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 19:57, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

The 2013 Hialeah shooting needs the year in its title to disambiguate it from the 2021 Hialeah shooting: Incorrect. The 2013 Hialeah shooting has had that name, since the article was created, in July 2013. And according to the page logs, that article has never been moved. That article is the perfect example of how to name an event, both in the immediate aftermath when there is no common name, as well as eight years later when another shooting happened in the same location.

We shouldn't aim to give unnecessary info in titles; if we did, we'd add various other things, such as month, perpetrator, motive etc. There are examples where it is necessary to add additional descriptors to an article title. For example; May 1995 tornado outbreak sequence, 7 July 2005 London Bombings, 21 July 2005 London Bombings. But it is also correct that concision is one of the five criteria we use when determining article names. However it is no more or less important than the other four criteria. The primary When, Where, What naming convention at WP:NCE addresses the balance of all five criteria, when an event lacks a common name.

most people won't remember when the Santa Monica shooting happened and people looking it up will almost all remember that it was a shooting in Santa Monica: We aren't writing articles only for people who remember when a specific incident happened. We are writing to inform people who may not have any background knowledge as to a specific event. While it may be obvious to you that there was only a single shooting in Santa Monica, we cannot and should not assume that it will be obvious to everyone. None of us know how a person is seeking out specific articles, we don't know if they're clicking blindly on Wikilinks, searching for specific terms, browsing by category, or browsing by template. We don't know if the reader is seeking out information on all mass shootings that happened in a given year, or all mass shootings that happened in a given locale. We cannot make the assumption that the only people reading about the Santa Monica shooting are only ever people who remember that it happened. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:21, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Your conversation is for the WP:NCEVENTS, not here. Following those conventions, this is the best name. If you disagree with the naming conventions, that is a conversation to have there. I would also state that adding the year adds to the article, since there is a strong conversation surrounding mass shootings and gun control happening in the United States presently and having 2022 adds to the title, not subtracts. Sheehanpg93 (talk) 20:25, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Many editors routinely include the year in article titles because they see it in many & assume that it's routinely included. I didn't say that the month is never needed. In a significant minority of articles it's needed because there has been more than one of that event of that type in that place in that year, such as April 2022 Kabul mosque bombing & May 2022 Kabul mosque bombing. We don't include the month in the title unless it's necessary, nor should we the year. People who don't know an event took place aren't going to look it up, let alone the year it happened, so including the year in the title is of no use to anyone. Who could including the year in the title help? Links in articles, templates, categories etc. will work as well regardless of whether or not titles include years. Searches such as //// etc. will likewise show what they're looking for regardless. If you mention the Guildford pub bombings to people, they're either going to have heard of them or not. No-one is going to not know of them, but if you say the 1974 Guildford pub bombings, then they'll remember. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:19, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, but this event occurred less than a week ago, and no common name has emerged, unlike the Guilford Pub bombings. Like User:Sideswipe9th said, we are not writing articles for those who remember them. I have also stated that I agree that this is not the final name of the article. But right now, less than a week after the event, it is important to include the year. I also will repeat, that if you disagree, take that to the naming conventions. Sheehanpg93 (talk) 14:37, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Many editors routinely include the year in article titles because they see it in many & assume that it's routinely included. No. Our naming conventions tell our editors to include the year in article titles. The relevant convention for this type of article is WP:NCEVENTS, which says If there is an established, common name for an event (such as the Great Depression, Cuban Missile Crisis or a "Bloody Sunday"), use that name. In the majority of cases, the title of the article should contain the following three descriptors: When the incident happened, Where the incident happened, What happened. Emphasis and wikilinks taken from that page. Routinely including the year is what the guidance tells us to do.

If anything, it is closer to the inverse of what you've said. Some editors, like yourself, routinely exclude the year in article titles because they've seen that it has been excluded in some and assume that it is routinely excluded. @Sheehanpg93: is correct though in saying that this is the wrong page to discuss the broader issues relating to this. I opened a discussion at Village pump policy about this almost two weeks ago, that I'd strongly encourage any editor here to contribute to relating to the broader issue of naming articles in this content area. Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:38, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Support per above. Honestly, I probably should have done that in the first place when making this. Although, I think the name should be the Tulsa Hospital shooting, because as of now, there's been no other hospital shootings in Tulsa. Nascar9919 (talk) 04:10, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

• Support Tulsa hospital shooting - I support "Tulsa hospital shooting" so long as there are no other notable shootings in this city. Additionally, at one time, while people were replying, the header had BOTH 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting and Tulsa hospital shooting. For this reason, people may need to clarify which title they prefer. --Jax 0677 (talk) 00:38, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

  Can you clarify which diff that happened in please? Cause at the time of filing this particular version, it read Warren Clinic shooting → 2022 Tulsa Hospital shooting Are you sure you're not confusing this request with the withdrawn one immediately above? Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:41, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

• Reply - This one. In fact, in the link you sent, it says "It has been proposed in this section that Warren Clinic shooting be renamed and moved to Tulsa Hospital shooting ... 2022 Tulsa Hospital shooting ...". --Jax 0677 (talk) 01:46, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

That's a good point. Considering that the addition to the template happened during this discussion, some of the support comments aren't clear as to whether they're in favour of moving this to 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting or Tulsa hospital shooting. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 10:14, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

• Support 2022 Tulsa Hospital shooting per above. —Locke Cole • t • c 03:34, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Killer & surgeon were black

The fact that the killer & the surgeon who'd operated on him were black has been added & removed from this article a few times. How relevant (if at all) is race to this shooting? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 10:14, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Only 2% of American orthopaedic surgeons are black, so Philips’ race is important. Louis less so. WWGB (talk) 12:24, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Why is it relevant that a victim was in a job that was unusual for his race? The job is the same regardless of ethnicity, and there's no evidence of a racial motive. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:45, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

It has absolutely no bearing on the motive or the context of the shooting. I don't see the relevancy. Love of Corey (talk) 23:11, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Victims' names

The surgeon was specifically targeted in revenge, so I can see the argument for including his name. The others weren't; they happened to be there & he doesn't appear to have had a grudge against any of them. In that respect, it's similar to someone carrying out a mass shooting a bar, shop, school, hotel etc. due to having a grudge against one member of staff. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:45, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Louis said he would kill anyone who “got in his way", so it’s likely the other dead tried to stop him or resist in some way, so I don’t think they are random killings like a school shooting. WWGB (talk) 23:44, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Tulsa hospital shooting or 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting?

The request for moving this page to 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting got lots of support, but many editors said that it should just be Tulsa hospital shooting instead of the 2022 at the start. I’d suggest replying to this discussion with whichever one you support, and for any further talks about which one to move to should be here. Grey13z (talk) 19:58, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

• Support 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting - I think the inclusion of the year is acceptable here. There are likely tons of other shootings that occurred in hospitals in Tulsa. The year is a perfect disambiguator. Love of Corey (talk) 03:57, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support Tulsa hospital shooting - I support "Tulsa hospital shooting" so long as there are no other notable shootings in this city. Additionally, at one time, while people were replying, the header for the third move request had BOTH 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting and Tulsa hospital shooting. For this reason, people may have needed to clarify which title they prefer. --Jax 0677 (talk) 16:13, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support move to Tulsa hospital shooting for reasons I've already given. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 17:39, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

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