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Eligibility for inclusion.

On this article, occupations of Syrian territory by the United States and Turkey are included. However, the inclusion criteria for List of states with limited recognition: https://en.wikipedia.org/List_of_states_with_limited_recognition#Excluded_entities, excludes entities " undergoing current civil wars and other situations with problems over government succession, regardless of temporary alignment with the inclusion criteria (e.g. by receiving recognition as state or legitimate government), where the conflict is still in its active phase ".

I understand this is a separate page, dealing with a separate issue, but I believe the inclusion criteria there to at least partially correspond with the inclusion criteria of this page. To that end, I believe the Syrian occupations by the United States and Turkey should be removed from this page, as both began and continue only under the pretext of the ongoing Syrian civil war. In contrast, Israel's occupation of the Golan Heights began before the civil war, so it should not be removed.

I also believe that this inclusion criteria is necessary to prevent constant edits to this page, which don't really benefit it. For example, if we'd like to include every single piece of Ukrainian territory occupied by Russia during the war, we'll have to update this page everyday. I don't believe that's useful since the information is then quickly out-of-date, and the context of this occupation is not the same as the others, as it's part of an ongoing war.

Anyway, I'm just a new user of Misplaced Pages who doesn't know what I'm doing, so if you disagree with this, feel free to explain to me why so I can maybe learn something. This is also why I'd rather post this here than edit the page without any warning or explanation. Thanks to all editors of this page for working on it. I particularly enjoy the pleasing colours of the map, so thank you to Onceinawhile for that! I'm looking forward to seeing what responses I'll get to this

XA1dUXvugi (talk) 08:56, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

A occupation is an occupation, whether it's going on during a civil war or Oktoberfest, and the presence such isn't a justification to remove them. Not only are these separate pages but separate issues. You are seeing issues that don't exist. You mention Ukraine and is in a constant state of Flux. Great then slow down. WP:NOTNEWS[REDACTED] is not a news paper. No we won't have to update this page everyday. There's no reason to do so, stop anyone who wants to from doing so, or to artificially create a circumstance to prevent anyone from doing so. Look at the exclusions you are talking about on the unrelated page. Either the subjects don't claim any independence such as the listed Rebel Groups mentioned or they are the Micronations, internationally unrecognized goverments in exile, or irredentist movements. Recognizing them as a matter weight in WP:UNDUE. This undue weight stands to legitimize (see WP:GEVAL) these groups but without the existence they should be able to legitimize themselves. With Misplaced Pages we wouldn't legitimize them but create a false balance. If you to create some inclusion or exclusion criteria there's need be a good justification for them. Really it's better to deal with stuff here case by case. If you got a local consensus here to arbitrarily prevent Ukraine listing because of how often you feel it should be adjusted, you couldn't use that override someone editing the article based on more broadly used and well established criteria such as the multitude of[REDACTED] policy, some of which I linked and others of which exist.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:20, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Ukrainian occupations

The occupations of parts of Ukraine has been split into sections, as far as I can tell. These include oblasts, annexed territories (Crimea), and quasi-states (Luhansk and Donetsk, which are also oblasts), as well as the distinctive Snake Island.

I've noticed that among the occupations, there isn't an entry for the Russian occupation of Kyiv Oblast and Chernihiv Oblast, nor the Capture of Chernobyl (inside of Kyiv, but it's a nuclear exclusion zone). The Kyiv Oblast and Chernihiv Oblast occupations were only temporary, but they were nonetheless occupations during their brief durations. Also, the Sumy Oblast occupation was about equally as long as those two. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 10:22, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

So add them to the historical section.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 16:30, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

The problem is, I don't think they have separate articles. So, they can only be added as a comment at the present time. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 19:36, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

We don´t have an agreed upon definition of what a miltary occupation is, despite having an article on what a military occupation is (how that works I don´t understand either). See my last post for a proposal.

For example I´d disagree that the capital region was ever under "military occupation". Occupation implies some kind of military administration. There was none. Territory got taken, territory got lost. If you´re Ukranian i´d fight this as a matter of pride/principle. I.e. the Russians never occupied Kiev/Kyiv or its region. Its the way when the Nazi´s never established their Reichscommisarriat Moscau. Some areas around Moscow were taken for a short while but no "occupation" was established. More examples would be, the Americans didn´t occupy Iraq until it was "occupied". I.e. until the conclusion of operations. But again, all this stems from that this article has no definition of military occupation as a criteria and then nothing to check against. So its a, excuse my language, fucking free-for-all. I think -Serialjoepsycho- makes this worse by telling you "just add it then" instead of asking you to think/argue your point first. 83.252.116.25 (talk) 06:29, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Crimea is not under miilitary occupation and neither are many others

Whatever your political stance, it is formally annexed and thus under "formal claim of Sovereignty". Neither is Jerusalem and West Sahara. Especially the latter, as there is maybe some slight ambiguity on whether or not Jerusalem truly is annexed.

All these "armed group" examples are stretching it too. I don´t think unrecognised republics constitute "armed groups". I mean international law is and has always been the bullies playground, where a newcomer isn´t allowed to play. But even so, they have to start somewhere. If there is clear intention to make its current status permanent then something like Northern Cyprus can´t possibly be under military occupation.

The only modern true military occupations on this list are the Syrian ones, the Ukranian ones beyond Donbass area, and maybe the Golan Heights. Thats going by Wikipedias own definition. edit: You could argue the West Bank is partially under military occupation too. Gaza Strip makes 0% sense since the withdrawl of Israel and the Oslo Accords. 83.252.116.25 (talk) 06:31, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

We've discussed this many times. You can add Gaza to the list as well, since it is not under military occupation, but for whatever reason, it is included here because the definition is stretched so as to make it included. Sir Joseph 17:12, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

The reason that these cases are considered to be "occupations" is that the international community or some other major body (e.g. the United Nations) has not recognised the act of annexation. Western Sahara is considered by the UN and the African Union to be a non-self-governing territory, regardless of how much of the territory has been annexed by Morocco. Meanwhile, Jerusalem's eastern side is considered to be a separate territory from the western side, but Israel has annexed the entire city and is claiming it as the Israeli capital; this is again widely unrecognised. Russia's annexation of Crimea is further unrecognised since it was a blatant land grab that was conducted entirely outside of the norms of international law. As for "armed groups" while that descriptor may be a bit strange, it is still true that most breakaway states are supported by a "patron state" for their military defence. E.g. Northern Cyprus is supported by Turkey, whereas Donetsk and Luhansk PRs are supported by Russia. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 03:39, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Why does it matter if someone recognizes it or not? The definition is: "without a claim of formal sovereignty".

Not "without a RECOGNIZED claim of formal sovereignty."

https://en.wikipedia.org/Military_occupation 83.252.116.25 (talk) 04:06, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

What matters is what the sources say. Sources continue to say Crimea is occupied territory. See for example the Washington Post 5 days ago: Mikhail Razvozhayev, the governor of Sevastopol in Russian-occupied Crimea. It is incredibly easy to find sources that discuss Crimea, in the present tense, as occupied by Russia. Why does recognition matter? Well for our purposes it doesnt really, what matters is what the sources say, but the sources say this because without recognition ones borders done just change. The international community largely recognizes Crimea to remain legally part of Ukraine and outside of Russia's sovereign territory. As they exercise effective military control over territory outside its borders, they occupy that territory. nableezy - 04:13, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

The sources refer to de jure recognition, not realities on the ground. A military occupation is not a legal term, it is a reality on the ground. Otherwise Misplaced Pages becomes a political battleground, which it already is. But this is insane.

So then if the international community never recognizes Crimean annexation and we don´t have a world war 3, Crimea will forever be under military occupation? Its Orwellian to think about it in that way. The Washington Post is in part engaged in a propaganda war on behalf of that countries establishment. Russia illegally annexed Crimea, it is however absolutely not under military occupation because it has a civil government AND because it is de facto annexed, 83.252.116.25 (talk) 04:29, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

As for Donbas, I can't fathom how you think that situation is not a military occupation. The two republics were created through brutal military force. Not just a seizure of power by the Russians and the Ukrainians peacefully walking away, but by the wholesale slaughter of the Ukrainian resistance by the pro-Russian separatists and their Russian supporters. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 03:42, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Article wise, there is no reason in principle why there cannot be two articles if desired, one for an annex and another for an occupation in the same space if that is the determination in sources. So in the case of East Jerusalem, you have Annexation of East Jerusalem and at the same time you have Israeli occupation of the West Bank (which includes East Jerusalem) and then there is Status of Jerusalem for Jerusalem. There will be variations case by case that need close examination. Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation is or should be the annex and details of that and then there is Political status of Crimea where it says "the majority of the international community continue to regard Crimea as occupied Ukrainian territory." Selfstudier (talk) 09:07, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

The major detail that I've noticed is that there doesn't really seem to be an article about "list of annexations". It's just not a topic that is frequently brought up, at least not to the degree that military occupations are. Essentially, the way that this article works at the moment is that it's a catchall for both military occupations and annexations. Annexations are often a type of military occupation, rather than a separate thing. The only way that an annexation wouldn't also be a military occupation is when the annexation has been mutually carried out by two consenting parties. For example, the PRC's annexation of Hong Kong was an example of a peaceful annexation process, whereas the PRC's annexation (incorporation) of Tibet was not peaceful. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 09:39, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

There is Annexation which is an article but mostly written like a list divided as unresolved, subsequently withdrawn and subsequently legalized Selfstudier (talk) 09:43, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

It's far from an exhaustive list though. I have doubts that such a short list covers every single annexation in history since the founding of the United Nations. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 09:55, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

For example, I've noticed that the Republic of China's annexation of Taiwan (previously held by Japan), which occurred only one day after the establishment of the United Nations, is not on the list. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 09:57, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

^(Amending what I've said above...) Another situation where an annexation would not be a military occupation is in the case of a terra nullius, wherein a sovereign state annexes a piece of territory that is not claimed by any other party, including indigenous peoples. I.e. a land that is completely uninhabited by humans, e.g. the Falkland Islands before modern history. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 09:42, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Sovereignty is not simply claimed, if it is not recognized it does not exist. Military occupation is the effective military control of territory outside of a states sovereign territory. That is true for Jerusalem, Gaza, Northern Cyprus and so on. Beyond that, it is a basic OR violation to claim that some Misplaced Pages definition isnt met so Misplaced Pages shouldnt include, as well as a failure to understand Misplaced Pages is not a reliable source. A place is occupied for Misplaced Pages's purposes if reliable sources largely consider that territory occupied. Sir Joseph is right that this has been discussed (for Israel) at least, but wrong in the result. The definition was not stretched, he just argued against the definition and was refuted over and over and over. nableezy - 13:59, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

"Military occupation is a type of effective control of a certain power over a territory which is not under the formal sovereignty of that entity, without the volition of the actual sovereign, and provisional in nature. Military occupation is distinguished from annexation by its intended temporary nature (i.e. no claim for permanent sovereignty), by its military nature, and by citizenship rights of the controlling power not being conferred upon the subjugated population." does not apply to Gaza. Sir Joseph 02:42, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, you lost this argument before. Maybe dont make us repeat it when nothing has changed? nableezy - 02:45, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

De Facto Soveregnity exists. Countries like Sweden have the official position that De-Facto control is what should constitute recognition. But they don´t really follow it. It doesn´t really matter though. De-Facto refers to "the actual circumstances", i.e. reality. If a people "de-facto" live under a civil administration then even if the whole world doesn´t recognize it de-jure, they"in the actual circumstances" live under a civil administration.

Now it gets a little bit tough when this administration has no popular support, thus is propped up by a military force - as say by an unwanted dictator. But even then we must go back to the intention of the "occupier". Essentially a military occupation is by its own definition https://en.wikipedia.org/Military_occupation a state of impermanence. (https://en.wikipedia.org/Impermanence).

The only state that exists that wishes to keep a part of its holdings under some degree of military occupation without a formal claim to annexation is Israel, due to its ethno-political considerations. So many tens of thousands of Palestinians live under some form of military rule in a state of impermanent permanence. Every other military occupation is only such until there is some kind of permanent (civil) rule - recognized or not.

Or would you say that Zapatista territory, Burmese Rohingya controlled terrtory and basically every other territory controlled by an indingenious or rebellious faction is under military occupation simply because its not recognized? That would be preposterous. 83.252.116.25 (talk) 04:20, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Thats going by Wikipedias own definition. Misplaced Pages is not a reliable source. However it's not hard to find reliable sources that view Crimea as occupied and that hold that illegal or unrecognized annexations are still military occupations. Further that annexation is generally considered illegal. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 14:42, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

That "source" is literally a propaganda piece. Are you for real?

Read this instead: https://www.jstor.org/stable/42864794

Crimea is by most accounts indeed not de-jure recognized because it as this source would phrase it "ought not to be recognized" because as your article claims, it came about through an aggressive act by a foreign state.

But it de-facto became its own state, as it possessed all the aspects of Sovereignty and had full and total control over its territory when it declared its independence and subsequently petitioned to joined Russia and thus became annexed.

This is the definition of sovereignty: https://en.wikipedia.org/Sovereignty

Under it we find that someone or something is sovereign if "In political theory, sovereignty is a substantive term designating supreme legitimate authority over some polity.".

Russia now holds "supreme legitimate authority" of the people of Crimea.

Legitimate in this case means that it is not contested, i.e. there are now two powers feuding in Crimea right now over control of the polity. https://en.wikipedia.org/Legitimacy_(political)

All of this is of course de facto. De jure Ukraine still administers Crimea from Kiev. But it is irrelevant to whether or not something is under military occupation because military occupation is defined by the occupier and their intentions (thus the reality on the ground). https://en.wikipedia.org/Military_occupation

Otherwise, as I explained elsewhere in this thread, every single unrecognized resistance movement would be keeping the territory it controls under "military occupation", an Orwellian and impossible to navigate term then that would lose all its meaning. For a people may be yearning for freedom from a sovereign, may achieve that freedom through military rebellion, may establish all the functions of a state in that territory and would then still by us be noted to living under a "military occupation" of their own doing. All this because the international community may find it politically sensitive to recognize their new state. In other words, transforming the term "military occupation" from a term dealing with realities on the ground to a legal term would risk denying the reality of the supposedly occupied people, in favour of that of some politician thousands of miles away.83.252.116.25 (talk) 04:49, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

References

1. https://euromaidanpress.com/2021/03/19/between-occupation-and-annexation-finding-the-proper-way-to-call-ukrainian-crimea/

Move

Im moving this back, that requires discussion and is unnecessary (and screwed up the subpage archives). nableezy - 14:04, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

OK, let's discuss. Only military occupations since 1907 are eligible for listing in the article, but there have been military occupations before then and anyone reading the article should be forewarned that only occupations since 1907 are going to be covered there. I'm not sure what the subpage archive issues might be, please advise. BobKilcoyne (talk) 16:22, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

I see where the otherwise arbitrary 1907 comes from, then again the article Military occupation doesn't specify that they are only going to discuss it from any particular date, instead it says in the article "From the second half of the 18th century onwards, international law has come to distinguish between the occupation of a country and territorial acquisition by invasion and annexation." and gives a short form list of what I would call "modern" occupations starting after WWII (btw Occupied Enemy Territory Administration was an occupation). Anyways, I would prefer ...since World War I or ...modern... or else not to mention any date in the title and just say it in the opening sentence. Selfstudier (talk) 17:43, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

It isnt arbitrary, its based on the date in which the modern concept came in to force. The subpage issue was that the subpages for this talk page werent moved, so the archives of the talk page werent showing up in the talk headers up above. But the disambiguation of since 1907 isnt necessary because the concept is limited to that, not because the list has an arbitrary cutoff. nableezy - 17:47, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Just so you know that as a pagemove, you shouldn't move something after it was moved, especially if you disputed the original move. You're basically using your advanced permissions to move the page to your preferred page. Sir Joseph 02:41, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Um what? I can revert a move, and I didnt use any advanced permission besides not leaving a redirect. The redirect isnt necessary as an implausible search term. Thats just silly, I cant revert a page move I disagree with because I have a pagemover right? No advanced permission is required to revert a move. nableezy - 02:44, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't think that's true. You might want to consult someone, you're also reverting a move you disagree with, which is not a good thing. Sir Joseph 02:49, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Lol what? Im reverting an undiscussed move. That is something every editor can do or request that it be done if technically impossible without pagemover (and this was technically possible without pagemover) and it will be done without discussion. All undiscussed moves that are challenged can be reverted. If youd like to raise this somewhere go right ahead. Youre saying that if an editor has rollback then they cannot undo, not rollback, an edit they disagree with. Thats so silly that it does not even merit a response. nableezy - 02:53, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

This entire list is a mess - constructive solution - Rename Article to "List of territories that have been or are under occupation"

This list was merged with the 1907 list and now I see where the problems stem from:

I removed Munch Agreement and Vienna Award but basically this entire list doesn´t make any sense. I´ve been told above that I can´t even use Wikipedias own definiton of "military occupation" to define what a military occupation is. But going by all the arguments in the discussion on Crimea, Israel and others, can someone explain tome how the Munich Agreement was ever even included here? (No military invasion, de facto and de jure transfer of sovereignity, agreement between two parties (albeit under duress) and the international community).

What are the previous editors going by? "Any transfer of territory made under any amount of duress"? That someone in some source at some point called it so?

For the Munich Agreement there wasn´t even a source? For Gaza both Israel and Hamas and the people of Gaza would disagree that they are under military occupation yet its up there. *Hamas because it would diminish its de Jure recognition, Israel because it would hurt its internatonal standing, the people of Gaza because they resist every and any incursion and its a point of pride* I´ve been here for a day and I feel exhausted ready to give up, and the discussion is a bit toxic. Editors apparently know its been "discussed before" so know each other and are set already. Also Misplaced Pages seems to value "going by sources" more so than going by its own definitions (that are themselves sourced) which leads to discussions becoming a sort of "fling opposing sources at each other/my source is better than your source".

PROPOSAL: Wouldn´t it be better to go by a set of criteria and then maybe even make a table and see if a country or territory falls under it? I propose a table like this:

Territories that have been or are under de Jure occupation vs Territories that have or are under de Facto occupation

Remove the term "military" as people can´t agree on that.

Add a set of criteria, sourced by academic sources for what "occupation" is.

Start putting territories into that table that fall under that criteria. 83.252.116.25 (talk) 06:09, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

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