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Eligibility for inclusion.

On this article, occupations of Syrian territory by the United States and Turkey are included. However, the inclusion criteria for List of states with limited recognition: https://en.wikipedia.org/List_of_states_with_limited_recognition#Excluded_entities, excludes entities " undergoing current civil wars and other situations with problems over government succession, regardless of temporary alignment with the inclusion criteria (e.g. by receiving recognition as state or legitimate government), where the conflict is still in its active phase ".

I understand this is a separate page, dealing with a separate issue, but I believe the inclusion criteria there to at least partially correspond with the inclusion criteria of this page. To that end, I believe the Syrian occupations by the United States and Turkey should be removed from this page, as both began and continue only under the pretext of the ongoing Syrian civil war. In contrast, Israel's occupation of the Golan Heights began before the civil war, so it should not be removed.

I also believe that this inclusion criteria is necessary to prevent constant edits to this page, which don't really benefit it. For example, if we'd like to include every single piece of Ukrainian territory occupied by Russia during the war, we'll have to update this page everyday. I don't believe that's useful since the information is then quickly out-of-date, and the context of this occupation is not the same as the others, as it's part of an ongoing war.

Anyway, I'm just a new user of Misplaced Pages who doesn't know what I'm doing, so if you disagree with this, feel free to explain to me why so I can maybe learn something. This is also why I'd rather post this here than edit the page without any warning or explanation. Thanks to all editors of this page for working on it. I particularly enjoy the pleasing colours of the map, so thank you to Onceinawhile for that! I'm looking forward to seeing what responses I'll get to this

XA1dUXvugi (talk) 08:56, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

A occupation is an occupation, whether it's going on during a civil war or Oktoberfest, and the presence such isn't a justification to remove them. Not only are these separate pages but separate issues. You are seeing issues that don't exist. You mention Ukraine and is in a constant state of Flux. Great then slow down. WP:NOTNEWS[REDACTED] is not a news paper. No we won't have to update this page everyday. There's no reason to do so, stop anyone who wants to from doing so, or to artificially create a circumstance to prevent anyone from doing so. Look at the exclusions you are talking about on the unrelated page. Either the subjects don't claim any independence such as the listed Rebel Groups mentioned or they are the Micronations, internationally unrecognized goverments in exile, or irredentist movements. Recognizing them as a matter weight in WP:UNDUE. This undue weight stands to legitimize (see WP:GEVAL) these groups but without the existence they should be able to legitimize themselves. With Misplaced Pages we wouldn't legitimize them but create a false balance. If you to create some inclusion or exclusion criteria there's need be a good justification for them. Really it's better to deal with stuff here case by case. If you got a local consensus here to arbitrarily prevent Ukraine listing because of how often you feel it should be adjusted, you couldn't use that override someone editing the article based on more broadly used and well established criteria such as the multitude of[REDACTED] policy, some of which I linked and others of which exist.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:20, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Ukrainian occupations

The occupations of parts of Ukraine has been split into sections, as far as I can tell. These include oblasts, annexed territories (Crimea), and quasi-states (Luhansk and Donetsk, which are also oblasts), as well as the distinctive Snake Island.

I've noticed that among the occupations, there isn't an entry for the Russian occupation of Kyiv Oblast and Chernihiv Oblast, nor the Capture of Chernobyl (inside of Kyiv, but it's a nuclear exclusion zone). The Kyiv Oblast and Chernihiv Oblast occupations were only temporary, but they were nonetheless occupations during their brief durations. Also, the Sumy Oblast occupation was about equally as long as those two. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 10:22, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

So add them to the historical section.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 16:30, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

The problem is, I don't think they have separate articles. So, they can only be added as a comment at the present time. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 19:36, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

We don´t have an agreed upon definition of what a miltary occupation is, despite having an article on what a military occupation is (how that works I don´t understand either). See my last post for a proposal.

For example I´d disagree that the capital region was ever under "military occupation". Occupation implies some kind of military administration. There was none. Territory got taken, territory got lost. If you´re Ukranian i´d fight this as a matter of pride/principle. I.e. the Russians never occupied Kiev/Kyiv or its region. Its the way when the Nazi´s never established their Reichscommisarriat Moscau. Some areas around Moscow were taken for a short while but no "occupation" was established.

An other example would be, the Americans didn´t occupy Iraq until it was "occupied". I.e. until the conclusion of operations and the implementation of a military governorship.

But again, all this stems from that this article has no definition of military occupation as a criteria and then nothing to check against. So its a, excuse my language, fucking free-for-all. I think -Serialjoepsycho- makes this worse by telling you "just add it then" instead of asking you to think/argue your point first. This is why this entire list is "a mess" and filled with every form of territorial change imaginable. 83.252.116.25 (talk) 06:29, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Crimea is not under miilitary occupation and neither are many others

Whatever your political stance, it is formally annexed and thus under "formal claim of Sovereignty". Neither is Jerusalem and West Sahara. Especially the latter, as there is maybe some slight ambiguity on whether or not Jerusalem truly is annexed.

All these "armed group" examples are stretching it too. I don´t think unrecognised republics constitute "armed groups". I mean international law is and has always been the bullies playground, where a newcomer isn´t allowed to play. But even so, they have to start somewhere. If there is clear intention to make its current status permanent then something like Northern Cyprus can´t possibly be under military occupation.

The only modern true military occupations on this list are the Syrian ones, the Ukranian ones beyond Donbass area, and maybe the Golan Heights. Thats going by Wikipedias own definition. edit: You could argue the West Bank is partially under military occupation too. Gaza Strip makes 0% sense since the withdrawl of Israel and the Oslo Accords. 83.252.116.25 (talk) 06:31, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

We've discussed this many times. You can add Gaza to the list as well, since it is not under military occupation, but for whatever reason, it is included here because the definition is stretched so as to make it included. Sir Joseph 17:12, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

The reason that these cases are considered to be "occupations" is that the international community or some other major body (e.g. the United Nations) has not recognised the act of annexation. Western Sahara is considered by the UN and the African Union to be a non-self-governing territory, regardless of how much of the territory has been annexed by Morocco. Meanwhile, Jerusalem's eastern side is considered to be a separate territory from the western side, but Israel has annexed the entire city and is claiming it as the Israeli capital; this is again widely unrecognised. Russia's annexation of Crimea is further unrecognised since it was a blatant land grab that was conducted entirely outside of the norms of international law. As for "armed groups" while that descriptor may be a bit strange, it is still true that most breakaway states are supported by a "patron state" for their military defence. E.g. Northern Cyprus is supported by Turkey, whereas Donetsk and Luhansk PRs are supported by Russia. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 03:39, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Why does it matter if someone recognizes it or not? The definition is: "without a claim of formal sovereignty".

Not "without a RECOGNIZED claim of formal sovereignty."

https://en.wikipedia.org/Military_occupation 83.252.116.25 (talk) 04:06, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

What matters is what the sources say. Sources continue to say Crimea is occupied territory. See for example the Washington Post 5 days ago: Mikhail Razvozhayev, the governor of Sevastopol in Russian-occupied Crimea. It is incredibly easy to find sources that discuss Crimea, in the present tense, as occupied by Russia. Why does recognition matter? Well for our purposes it doesnt really, what matters is what the sources say, but the sources say this because without recognition ones borders done just change. The international community largely recognizes Crimea to remain legally part of Ukraine and outside of Russia's sovereign territory. As they exercise effective military control over territory outside its borders, they occupy that territory. nableezy - 04:13, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

The sources refer to de jure recognition, not realities on the ground. A military occupation is not a legal term, it is a reality on the ground. Otherwise Misplaced Pages becomes a political battleground, which it already is. But this is insane.

So then if the international community never recognizes Crimean annexation and we don´t have a world war 3, Crimea will forever be under military occupation? Its Orwellian to think about it in that way. The Washington Post is in part engaged in a propaganda war on behalf of that countries establishment. Russia illegally annexed Crimea, it is however absolutely not under military occupation because it has a civil government AND because it is de facto annexed, 83.252.116.25 (talk) 04:29, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

That is complete nonsense. Military occupation is a status in international law. Please review WP:OR before continuing to misuse this talk page. nableezy - 06:52, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

As for Donbas, I can't fathom how you think that situation is not a military occupation. The two republics were created through brutal military force. Not just a seizure of power by the Russians and the Ukrainians peacefully walking away, but by the wholesale slaughter of the Ukrainian resistance by the pro-Russian separatists and their Russian supporters. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 03:42, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Article wise, there is no reason in principle why there cannot be two articles if desired, one for an annex and another for an occupation in the same space if that is the determination in sources. So in the case of East Jerusalem, you have Annexation of East Jerusalem and at the same time you have Israeli occupation of the West Bank (which includes East Jerusalem) and then there is Status of Jerusalem for Jerusalem. There will be variations case by case that need close examination. Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation is or should be the annex and details of that and then there is Political status of Crimea where it says "the majority of the international community continue to regard Crimea as occupied Ukrainian territory." Selfstudier (talk) 09:07, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

The major detail that I've noticed is that there doesn't really seem to be an article about "list of annexations". It's just not a topic that is frequently brought up, at least not to the degree that military occupations are. Essentially, the way that this article works at the moment is that it's a catchall for both military occupations and annexations. Annexations are often a type of military occupation, rather than a separate thing. The only way that an annexation wouldn't also be a military occupation is when the annexation has been mutually carried out by two consenting parties. For example, the PRC's annexation of Hong Kong was an example of a peaceful annexation process, whereas the PRC's annexation (incorporation) of Tibet was not peaceful. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 09:39, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

There is Annexation which is an article but mostly written like a list divided as unresolved, subsequently withdrawn and subsequently legalized Selfstudier (talk) 09:43, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

It's far from an exhaustive list though. I have doubts that such a short list covers every single annexation in history since the founding of the United Nations. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 09:55, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

For example, I've noticed that the Republic of China's annexation of Taiwan (previously held by Japan), which occurred only one day after the establishment of the United Nations, is not on the list. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 09:57, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

^(Amending what I've said above...) Another situation where an annexation would not be a military occupation is in the case of a terra nullius, wherein a sovereign state annexes a piece of territory that is not claimed by any other party, including indigenous peoples. I.e. a land that is completely uninhabited by humans, e.g. the Falkland Islands before modern history. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 09:42, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Sovereignty is not simply claimed, if it is not recognized it does not exist. Military occupation is the effective military control of territory outside of a states sovereign territory. That is true for Jerusalem, Gaza, Northern Cyprus and so on. Beyond that, it is a basic OR violation to claim that some Misplaced Pages definition isnt met so Misplaced Pages shouldnt include, as well as a failure to understand Misplaced Pages is not a reliable source. A place is occupied for Misplaced Pages's purposes if reliable sources largely consider that territory occupied. Sir Joseph is right that this has been discussed (for Israel) at least, but wrong in the result. The definition was not stretched, he just argued against the definition and was refuted over and over and over. nableezy - 13:59, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

"Military occupation is a type of effective control of a certain power over a territory which is not under the formal sovereignty of that entity, without the volition of the actual sovereign, and provisional in nature. Military occupation is distinguished from annexation by its intended temporary nature (i.e. no claim for permanent sovereignty), by its military nature, and by citizenship rights of the controlling power not being conferred upon the subjugated population." does not apply to Gaza. Sir Joseph 02:42, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, you lost this argument before. Maybe dont make us repeat it when nothing has changed? nableezy - 02:45, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

De Facto Soveregnity exists. Countries like Sweden have the official position that De-Facto control is what should constitute recognition. But they don´t really follow it. It doesn´t really matter though. De-Facto refers to "the actual circumstances", i.e. reality. If a people "de-facto" live under a civil administration then even if the whole world doesn´t recognize it de-jure, they"in the actual circumstances" live under a civil administration.

Now it gets a little bit tough when this administration has no popular support, thus is propped up by a military force - as say by an unwanted dictator. But even then we must go back to the intention of the "occupier". Essentially a military occupation is by its own definition https://en.wikipedia.org/Military_occupation a state of impermanence. (https://en.wikipedia.org/Impermanence).

The only state that exists that wishes to keep a part of its holdings under some degree of military occupation without a formal claim to annexation is Israel, due to its ethno-political considerations. So many tens of thousands of Palestinians live under some form of military rule in a state of impermanent permanence. Every other military occupation is only such until there is some kind of permanent (civil) rule - recognized or not.

Or would you say that Zapatista territory, Burmese Rohingya controlled terrtory and basically every other territory controlled by an indingenious or rebellious faction is under military occupation simply because its not recognized? That would be preposterous. 83.252.116.25 (talk) 04:20, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Just to demonstrate just how off the wall this post is. You raise Sweden. Here is Sweden's Foreign Ministry saying East Jerusalem is occupied.They also require Golan wine to note that it is made in occupied Syrian territory. What was that about "de-facto control"? Oh yeah, something already implied by occupation, because one must be in control to occupy. Beyond that, again, made up nonsense. nableezy - 07:43, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Why are you so hostile? The opposite is usually the case, that which one cannot argue against one stays silent about, rather than accepting they may have been wrong.

The fact that Sweden is a country subject to international considerations is a reality unto itself from which it cannot escape. Why is this so hard for you to understand? This is also why you´re wrong when you say that Military Occupation is WP:COMMON with Occupation.

The Golan Heights is de Facto occupied by Israel as a geographical entity but it is neither de Facto nor de Jure under military occupation (maybe some exceptions exist for the Arab towns in the north I dont know). It is politically speaking annexed by Israel. Do you want me to ask the Swedish FM? Like are you really interested in learning something new or will you just argue with me even if they send an email showing you´re wrong? Basically im 99% sure that this is Swedens position: "The territory of the Golan Heights is occupied Syrian land, annexed by Israel, under a civil Israeli administration - it is not under miilitary occupaton" - Possible exception for Arab villages in the north, I really dont know about this and will have to check. Now I ask you again; do you want me to confirm this with the Swedish FM or not and if I do will it be enough for you to start changing your stance here in general?

Swedens position (which it does, as mentioned, not follow in practice all the time) is that a state that has the effective means to act as a state is de facto a state. That does not make it a de jure state. But this is the same principle that was used in the Hague Tribunal when dealing with human rights abuses by Serb paramilitaries in unrecognized states. You can´t hide behind it afterwards, "you had the functions of a state, a military, a police" etc. You had effective control over your territory, so you´re responsible what happens to your people there. See this: https://en.wikipedia.org/Arbitration_Commission_of_the_Peace_Conference_on_Yugoslavia

Are you disputing that de Facto recognition of states is a thing or what is your position? I feel you´re obfuscating on purpose. 83.252.116.25 (talk) 10:34, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Thats going by Wikipedias own definition. Misplaced Pages is not a reliable source. However it's not hard to find reliable sources that view Crimea as occupied and that hold that illegal or unrecognized annexations are still military occupations. Further that annexation is generally considered illegal. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 14:42, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

That "source" is literally a propaganda piece. Are you for real?

Read this instead: https://www.jstor.org/stable/42864794

Crimea is by most accounts indeed not de-jure recognized because it as this source would phrase it "ought not to be recognized" because as your article claims, it came about through an aggressive act by a foreign state.

But it de-facto became its own state, as it possessed all the aspects of Sovereignty and had full and total control over its territory when it declared its independence and subsequently petitioned to joined Russia and thus became annexed.

This is the definition of sovereignty: https://en.wikipedia.org/Sovereignty

Under it we find that someone or something is sovereign if "In political theory, sovereignty is a substantive term designating supreme legitimate authority over some polity.".

Russia now holds "supreme legitimate authority" of the people of Crimea.

Legitimate in this case means that it is not contested, i.e. there are now two powers feuding in Crimea right now over control of the polity. https://en.wikipedia.org/Legitimacy_(political)

All of this is of course de facto. De jure Ukraine still administers Crimea from Kiev. But it is irrelevant to whether or not something is under military occupation because military occupation is defined by the occupier and their intentions (thus the reality on the ground). https://en.wikipedia.org/Military_occupation

Otherwise, as I explained elsewhere in this thread, every single unrecognized resistance movement would be keeping the territory it controls under "military occupation", an Orwellian and impossible to navigate term then that would lose all its meaning. For a people may be yearning for freedom from a sovereign, may achieve that freedom through military rebellion, may establish all the functions of a state in that territory and would then still by us be noted to living under a "military occupation" of their own doing. All this because the international community may find it politically sensitive to recognize their new state. In other words, transforming the term "military occupation" from a term dealing with realities on the ground to a legal term would risk denying the reality of the supposedly occupied people, in favour of that of some politician thousands of miles away. I would just add that you can still be critical of an annexation that results on a military-dominated government. It would then be called a "military dictatorship/junta" but not a "military occupation". 83.252.116.25 (talk) 04:49, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Youre using a 1932 journal article to argue that Crimea, occupied since 2014, is not occupied? Sorry, that isnt how any of this works. Again, please review WP:OR. Misplaced Pages is not a place for you to present novel theories and demand that they be published. You can do that on a blog. nableezy - 06:57, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

The one source used to support the contention is completely misunderstood, a 1932 source trumps no source. Stop blogging yourself man. 83.252.116.25 (talk) 10:10, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

References

1. https://euromaidanpress.com/2021/03/19/between-occupation-and-annexation-finding-the-proper-way-to-call-ukrainian-crimea/

Move

Im moving this back, that requires discussion and is unnecessary (and screwed up the subpage archives). nableezy - 14:04, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

OK, let's discuss. Only military occupations since 1907 are eligible for listing in the article, but there have been military occupations before then and anyone reading the article should be forewarned that only occupations since 1907 are going to be covered there. I'm not sure what the subpage archive issues might be, please advise. BobKilcoyne (talk) 16:22, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

I see where the otherwise arbitrary 1907 comes from, then again the article Military occupation doesn't specify that they are only going to discuss it from any particular date, instead it says in the article "From the second half of the 18th century onwards, international law has come to distinguish between the occupation of a country and territorial acquisition by invasion and annexation." and gives a short form list of what I would call "modern" occupations starting after WWII (btw Occupied Enemy Territory Administration was an occupation). Anyways, I would prefer ...since World War I or ...modern... or else not to mention any date in the title and just say it in the opening sentence. Selfstudier (talk) 17:43, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

It isnt arbitrary, its based on the date in which the modern concept came in to force. The subpage issue was that the subpages for this talk page werent moved, so the archives of the talk page werent showing up in the talk headers up above. But the disambiguation of since 1907 isnt necessary because the concept is limited to that, not because the list has an arbitrary cutoff. nableezy - 17:47, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Just so you know that as a pagemove, you shouldn't move something after it was moved, especially if you disputed the original move. You're basically using your advanced permissions to move the page to your preferred page. Sir Joseph 02:41, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Um what? I can revert a move, and I didnt use any advanced permission besides not leaving a redirect. The redirect isnt necessary as an implausible search term. Thats just silly, I cant revert a page move I disagree with because I have a pagemover right? No advanced permission is required to revert a move. nableezy - 02:44, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't think that's true. You might want to consult someone, you're also reverting a move you disagree with, which is not a good thing. Sir Joseph 02:49, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Lol what? Im reverting an undiscussed move. That is something every editor can do or request that it be done if technically impossible without pagemover (and this was technically possible without pagemover) and it will be done without discussion. All undiscussed moves that are challenged can be reverted. If youd like to raise this somewhere go right ahead. Youre saying that if an editor has rollback then they cannot undo, not rollback, an edit they disagree with. Thats so silly that it does not even merit a response. nableezy - 02:53, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

This entire list is a mess - constructive solution - Rename Article to "List of territories that have been or are under occupation"

This list was merged with the 1907 list and now I see where the problems stem from:

I removed Munch Agreement and Vienna Award but basically this entire list doesn´t make any sense. I´ve been told above that I can´t even use Wikipedias own definiton of "military occupation" to define what a military occupation is. But going by all the arguments in the discussion on Crimea, Israel and others, can someone explain tome how the Munich Agreement was ever even included here? (No military invasion, de facto and de jure transfer of sovereignity, agreement between two parties (albeit under duress) and the international community).

What are the previous editors going by? "Any transfer of territory made under any amount of duress"? That someone in some source at some point called it so?

For the Munich Agreement there wasn´t even a source? For Gaza both Israel and Hamas and the people of Gaza would disagree that they are under military occupation yet its up there. *Hamas because it would diminish its de Jure recognition, Israel because it would hurt its internatonal standing, the people of Gaza because they resist every and any incursion and its a point of pride* I´ve been here for a day and I feel exhausted ready to give up, and the discussion is a bit toxic. Editors apparently know its been "discussed before" so know each other and are set already. Also Misplaced Pages seems to value "going by sources" more so than going by its own definitions (that are themselves sourced) which leads to discussions becoming a sort of "fling opposing sources at each other/my source is better than your source".

PROPOSAL: Wouldn´t it be better to go by a set of criteria and then maybe even make a table and see if a country or territory falls under it? I propose a table like this:

Territories that have been or are under de Jure occupation vs Territories that have or are under de Facto occupation

Remove the term "military" as people can´t agree on that.

Add a set of criteria, sourced by academic sources for what "occupation" is.

Start putting territories into that table that fall under that criteria. 83.252.116.25 (talk) 06:09, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

You're saying things that are just factually wrong. Hamas and the people of Gaza do not say that Gaza is not occupied. Israel does, and we include that they dispute it. Youre just making things up here, please stop doing that. "Military occupation" does not mean what you think it means, sorry. There is no such thing as de jure and de facto occupation. Again, you are just making things up here. This is not a amateur course on international law. nableezy - 06:55, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Example source on Gaza: Forced Migration Review: Under the Disengagement Plan, Israel retains absolute authority over Gaza’s airspace and territorial sea. It is manifestly exercising governmental authority in these areas. When we also take into account the views that have been expressed on control of the territory from the air, it is clear that Israeli withdrawal of land forces did not terminate occupation. This view is only reinforced by the ease with which Israeli land forces re-entered Gaza in June 2006.

There is indeed a serious dispute about the status of Gaza, so we include that dispute. But WP:NPOV requires the inclusion of all significant POVs, and the view that Gaza is occupied, shared by the UN, Amnesty International (and other human rights organizations), and numerous scholars is indeed a significant POV and needs to be included. nableezy - 07:15, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

The Gazan people have literally resisted every incursion into Gaza since Israel withdrew after the Oslo accords. What source do you have that Hamas considers Gaza to be occupied?

And what is your definition of military occupation if not the definition of Misplaced Pages that says: "is provisional control by a ruling power over a territory, without a claim of formal sovereignty."

https://en.wikipedia.org/Military_occupation

To me there can be no doubt that Israel exercises no provisional or otherwise control over Gazan territory. With the exception of some portons of its sea perhaps. But its hard to say that the fish are under military occupatioin.

The book and chapter cited for all these modern examples is this one: The Legality of Economic Administratio in Occupied Territories But it is completely misunderstood.

It says that many occupations are "prolonged today" because the occupying state chooses to keep territories in prolonged occupation so as to not the opprobrium of the international community. It effectively states that those occupations are a disguise for effective annexations. And thus are not occupations. It continues: "In the West Bank, Israel pays lip service to the notion of a temporary occupation that is to be brought to an end by negotiation but in practice it has de facto annexed large portions of the territory". Meaning that ANNEXATION is different from and separate from OCCUPATION and that the ANNEXING power (Israel) seeks to disguise its DE FACTO ANNEXATION through a "lip service" of OCCUPATION. The authors here obviously try to make the claim that annexation is more vile or at least more condemnable than occupation. But most of you editors who have been editing this article don´t understand this. So you use the source as if all the "...cases today..." of annexation are in reality occupations: "...however, the occupying power has formally annexed the territory in question. This is illustrated by the cases of Israel’s annexations of East Jerusalem and the Golan, Morocco’s annexation of Western Sahara and Russia’s annexation of the Crimea. Alternatively, the occupying power has established a puppet regime that claims to be the TRNC, Abkhazia and South Ossetia." You have completely misunderstood the only viable source used to justify putting West Sahara, TRNC, Abhkazia, Crimea, etc on this list.

More so, there is not even a source for Gaza under military occupation but just occupation, thus my proposition to remove military from the article titlehead. Even so Hamas can´t be a government not in exile and claim that the territory it effectively governs is occupied. Here´s a source that disputes what you´re saying "This article explores the definition of “occupied territory” under international law and contends that the term “occupied territory” no longer applies to Gaza after Israel’s disengagement. Although the United Nations still maintains that Gaza is occupied, under both the literal and interpreted applications of the definition of occupation— characterized by what is termed “effective control”—Gaza is not occupied territory pursuant to the standards set forth in international law and doctrine." IS GAZA OCCUPIED?: REDEFINING THE STATUS OF GAZA UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW . I am not making things up, dont stoop to that level please. I am talking about realities on the ground, you´re talking about lofty judicial principles. Israel exercises control over imports and exports to and from Gaza and the movement of its people outside of the territory. It has effectively put it under blockade, not occupation. For all the other instances as mentioned above, the one sourced used is misunderstood. 83.252.116.25 (talk) 07:15, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Are you under the impression that to resist foreign occupation means to deny it exists? Here is a Hamas spokesman decrying the Israeli occupation. Here is another. See where it says we are an occupied people? Again, please review WP:OR. Everytime you get the urge to say thus here, remind yourself that your view is unimportant and that the sources are what matter here. As far as removing "military" from the title, military occupation and belligerent occupation are synonyms and military occupation is the WP:COMMONNAME for the topic. Your misunderstanding of the meaning of the term isnt all that important. And yes, I already said that There is indeed a serious dispute about the status of Gaza, so we include that dispute. And yes, that source is an example of the serious dispute about the status of Gaza. When there is a dispute among sources we include all significant views. The view that Gaza is not occupied is likewise significant, and it is included. I dont care what you think the reality on the ground is, military occupation is an international law topic. So yes, we discuss the legal status. nableezy - 07:37, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

First article he says "the zionist occupation", it does not refer to Gaza. You know that Hamas sees all of Israel as Palestine. And even if it didn´t it obviously sees the West Bank as occupied. The spokesman later goes on to clarify that "he called for the international community to pressure the Israeli occupation to stop its violations and attacks on Palestinians, as well as to lift its oppressive siege on Gaza."

These are two different things. You can´t have a siege and at the same time be occupying what you´re sieging.

You can´t have an annexation and at the same time occupy what you´ve annexed.

How could I convince you of this basic folly that to me is so apparent and that I feel you´re blinded from seeing simply due to your probably well intentioned political bias/care? I feel like you´re not understanding your own sources.

Did you review my points on the article concerning Crimea et la? Do you agree or disagree with that?

But even beyond that, what about my original proposal?

That we set up a Criteria for What is OCCUPIED de Facto and de Jure respectively. That the "fight" if you wish be over sources defining this, not each separate entry? 83.252.116.25 (talk) 07:45, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

The first article is about an OCHA oPt report on the siege of Gaza, and the Hamas response was "This report is considered a new UN document added to a series of previous documents that monitors the crimes and violations of the Zionist occupation." But you say it does not refer to Gaza? And then you want me not to say you are making things up? The problem with your de facto and de jure criteria is that they are made up. Occupation is a legal concept. What do you not get about that? You can´t have a siege and at the same time be occupying what you´re sieging. is based on what exactly? Youre just making these bald assertions without any basis for them. Im sorry, but that is not how Misplaced Pages works. Have you read WP:OR yet? nableezy - 07:59, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

What do you even mean by "occupation is a legal concept" , as opposed to what? You can feel that you´re under occupation even if you´re not legally recognized as such. And international bodies can tell you that you´re an occupier even if everyone under you cries out for your rule. Where does it say that "occupation is a legal concept?" Who has decided this? Are people not occupied until some legal scholar decides they are? Again what about the right to revolt? I mentioned the Zapatistas earlier. Are they occupiers because they aren´t a recognised power? Please define your legal criteria then. To me, the Misplaced Pages article defines it perfectly in that one sentence, in a fair and neutral, sourced way. Whether its a "legal concept" or not, I dont know. And I dont care that much.

What´s wrong with the definition we have already? I keep bringing this up, and you keep ignoring it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/Military_occupation

"Military or belligerent occupation, often simply occupation, is provisional control by a ruling power over a territory, without a claim of formal sovereignty.".

Now about your source. I don´t know if you´re playing a game with me or not. If you can please link to the report. All I know is that he clearly separates the Siege of Gaza from the "Zionist occupation" by adding "as well as". If we can´t agree on the meaning of "as well as" denoting something else than the thing mentioned before it then we together with this Hamas rep might have to go learn English again - preferably at the same place.

If you disagree with me and think he meant that Gaza is under siege while being occupied then please explain to me how that can be possible. To play the devils advocate a bit the only way I see it is that he considers Gaza to be inseparable from Palestine as a whole. But that is irrelevant to our discussion and more a reflection of his political ambitions. Because what we´re dealing with are 5 separate entries for various Arab territories not Gaza as part of a whole Palestine.

So you´re the one making the assertion that something can be occupied and under siege at the same time. These terms are colloquially understood as being mutually exclusive as to occupy something you need to hold it and to siege something your enemy needs to hold it.

I´ll be fair and say that your second article is far less clear. But if you´re being honest you´d admit that you´re primarily motived in this discussion not because of your care of the "legal terminology" of "occupation" but for Palestinian people. You´re passionate about that one one struggle as you keep ignoring my review of the source for all other examples. But if you´re passionate about the Palestinian struggle you should know that the term "The Occupation" is used as a political slogan. I could start scouring the internet for sources that support me in this assertion and you could keep posting your scholarly legal opines and would be stuck in arguing who has the best sources. You also ignored the one source I posted from the Americas Court of Human Rights opposing your assertion that Gaza is occupied.

What I would rather do is, whether or not you agree with two lists (de Facto and de Jure) that we agree on a common definition of "occupation" or "military occupation" if that has the same meaning to and Wikipedians in general. Rather than arguing each case.

So do you have a good definition of "occupation" that goes beyond the triple-sourced one I cited from the Misplaced Pages article above which you´d rather use? 83.252.116.25 (talk) 08:19, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

I´ll do this as a separate reply. Overall I Think we should have a definition for what military occupied is.

But I see you´ve been arguing this issue since 2018 (browsing archives atm). I Would have for example gladly have used the European Court of Human Rights definition as opposed to the Wikipedian one. But even then you argue that Israel somehow militarily occupies Gaza from the outside.

I would counter this by asking you if you could define the difference between blockade and occupation. But I think you´d be disingenuous or you´d ignore me. I hope I´m proven wrong about all of this and you do come up with good answers.

The problem is here that your passion about the Palestinian issue is creating a clusterfuck of a situation for every other issue. So barring the resolution of the above here´s a secondary proposal:

If I email Hamas in Gaza and/or the Palestinian Embassy here in Sweden with the following questions:

"

Esteemed sir/madam

We are having some trouble on the English Misplaced Pages on the issue of Military Occupations. One of the problems to reaching a consensus is the Palestinian situation.

As you may know, Misplaced Pages is often the entry point for people researching the subject for personal, academic or media related reasons and we would love to have an official position on this from you.

Many contend that Israel uses the terminology "occupation" to denote what is otherwise an effectively annexation.

Question 1 and 2:

What are you official positions on Occupation vs Annexation - or in other words: Is Area C of the West Bank occupied or annexed by the Israeli´s?

What if any is the difference between Occupation and Annexation?

Question 3 and 4:

A further point of contention is Gaza.

For example, I contend that Gaza is not under occupation but under a blockade and from time to time under a siege.

Others contend that Gaza is under occupation while being under a blockade and from time to time under a siege.

What is your official standpoint? Is Gaza under occupation or under a blockade and from time to time under a siege?

Or is it simultaneously under a blockade and under an occupation?

How would you define Occupation and Blockade as it relates to Gaza?

With Kind Regards XYZ and the Wikipedian community.

"

Feel free to suggest changes.

Would this suffice to move on from the Palestine/Israel issue?

Should I also email it to Israel?

Maybe we could have a "disputed" section if they answered differently?

Cheers. 83.252.116.25 (talk) 09:28, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

The fact is that most modern occupations breach the rules in one way or another, what with politicos and courts playing games. What constitutes occupation has varied over time and I don't see any need to have a discussion about that in a List article, we simply point to Military occupation and that's that. We don't use any "definition", we go by what reliable sources say, so if a majority of respectable RS say Gaza is occupied, we report that (as well as a minority opinion if it is significant). Ditto any others. Selfstudier (talk) 09:44, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

This is a fair view and I welcome the first objective posting on this whole issue (both those support and opposing my previous post have been kinda subjective).

But the issue is far worse than that:

1. In relation to Crimea, Northern Cyprus, Akbhkazia, etc: The One source used is not understood well. See first reply in this thread. The editors used a source that INVALIDATES their position rather than VALIDATING it. They sadly do not comprehend what they have read.

I.E: The Source CRITICIZES Israel for obscuring ANNEXATION with notions of OCCUPATION and mentions several instances of OCCUPATIONS becoming ANNEXATIONS. An ANNEXATION cannot be an OCCUPATION. YOU cannot OCCUPY what YOU have ANNEXED.

2. In regards to Gaza: Similarly a BLOCKADE and SIEGE cannot happen over something that is OCCUPIED by YOU. Has a king ever BESIEGED his OWN town? Has this ever happened in history? Is there anything even remotely similar to this?

3. Perhaps I am not well versed in Wiki-bureaucracy but how can there be a sourced definition (x3) of what a "Military Occupation" is, and then in an article detailing current and old military occupations there are DOZENS of instances that do not fall under that very same definition? Aren´t we in effect all EDITORS? Don´t we have to have some kind of consistent editorial policy?

Are you saying that this is acceptable and good practice:

We as Wikipedians have defined A as B because sources XYZ list A as B even though B is defined and sourced as C and C is completely incompatible with A?

Why not just have B defined as C and then see if A fits into B per C? Im completely open to changing the definition of B or adding "more definitions/variations" but am not open to holding two opposing thoughts in my head as true at the same time. As editors we must take a stand and be consistent. It would even be better to change B to fit A than continue like this. 83.252.116.25 (talk) 09:58, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

An ANNEXATION cannot be an OCCUPATION. YOU cannot OCCUPY what YOU have ANNEXED. There is an informal term in use that sadly has not gained much traction, occu-annex. It's easier to think about it as two different legal systems, so eg In Israeli law, they have annexed (67+80) East Jerusalem so as far as Israel is concerned it is not occupied. In international law (ie as far as the world/UN is concerned) the law is nullified (of no legal effect) and the area remains occupied (then Geneva IV/Laws of war continue to apply). As well there are resolutions covering "Jerusalem" (character cannot be changed, no such changes will be accepted, no legal effect etc etc). Selfstudier (talk) 10:17, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

I haven't really looked hard at the Military occupation article, it's quite possible that there are errors of one sort and another. In general, if there are conflicting sources, then the need is to try and resolve that by further investigation, new/better sourcing and so on, if not resolved then one can always include the contradictory sources and just say something like "sources disagree..." Selfstudier (talk) 10:21, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

This is what I´ve been asking for. I want this guy nableezy to define what a military occupation is.

But in my opinion its wrong to start changing the definition of the the term to fit a single case rather than removing the case. Still even that would be better, than having such a conflict. It doesn´t take long. You can look here "Military or belligerent occupation, often simply occupation, is provisional control by a ruling power over a territory, without a claim of formal sovereignty. The territory is then known as the occupied territory and the ruling power the occupant. Occupation is distinguished from annexation and colonialism by its intended temporary duration."

https://en.wikipedia.org/Military_occupation

It has been defined by several sources as being DIRECTLY DISTINCT from Annexation. Nothing else makes sense. I dont even know why this is an issue for him, I feel like Russia or Israel commits a bigger "crime" if it annexes Ukranians or Palestinians than occupies them.

In regards to Gaza its not in direct conflict with the source because the source deals with annexations and not blockades. But again, I ask you or him or I could even send an request to what ever organization or embassy to define if they want how a blockade and siege could happen of something you already occupy. 83.252.116.25 (talk) 10:40, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Also why do you feel its "sad" that "occu-annex" hasn´t gained more traction?

Why do you feel the need to have a word that denotes two different things?

That is literally the problem we´re having here. Why is "illegal" or "unrecnogized" or "violent" annexation not enough? Why do you need "occupied annexation" that I dont even understand. 83.252.116.25 (talk) 10:42, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

I like "occu-annex" because it concisely demonstrates that the two things can and do co-exist while avoiding pointless discussions. Not certain, I think it was Michael Lynk that coined the expression here.

I think this convo has reached a conclusion tbh, I can only reiterate that in WP we go by the sources so it's not for Nableezy or me or anyone else to define what a military occupation is (or an annex). Selfstudier (talk) 11:00, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

But you just said that if the sources conflict with the very definition as sourced by academics and accepted by Misplaced Pages then something needs to be done about it?

And again, the source used for everything except Gaza is directly invalidating the position that its occupied and supporting my contention that nations use occupation to obfuscate annexations.

Maybe Im bad at expressing myself here?

I am saying that the majority of the list that I dispute is contradicted by its own source, with the except of Gaza that simply is contractionary in nature. There is the middle ground "Occupation" and then we have two extremes: Blockade ------- Occupation -----Annexation. Three distinct terms. Occupation and Annexation are clearly sourced to be mutually exclusive in the politicalsense. I just need people to agree with this (how do I start a formal process?) as per the source used. Blockade and Occupation are also mutually exclusive but I dont have a source for that beyond logical deduction and simple semantics. That should be enough but maybe it isn´t. Im content with leaving Gaza as I honestly cant bother caring enough but the rest are directly contradicted by the source they use. (Crimea, Akbhazia, Northern Cyprus, Western Sahara, etc).

83.252.116.25 (talk) 11:07, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Then find better sources/tag the problem areas so that they can be fixed. Or apply a global article tag if appropriate. This will bring more eyes to the article. Selfstudier (talk) 11:11, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

No I mean like, I browsed the archive and Ive seen some discussions turned into "votes" or what ever you guys call it.

So how do I start a vote on a proposal.

I realise this was too broad. Plus I see in the archives that someone tried to have the same proposal as I did in like 2018...to create two separate lists.

Instead I would propose that Annexation be mutually exclusive with Military Occupation in the political sense. So that if a territory becomes "Annexed" it is no longer "Occupied".

I would like to do the same with Blockade vs Occupation. But Maybe thats asking too much. 83.252.116.25 (talk) 11:16, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Gaza

References

1. "Israel: 'Disengagement' Will Not End Gaza Occupation". Human Rights Watch. 29 October 2004. Archived from the original on 1 November 2008. Retrieved 16 July 2010.
2. Sanger, Andrew (2011). M.N. Schmitt; Louise Arimatsu; Tim McCormack (eds.). "The Contemporary Law of Blockade and the Gaza Freedom Flotilla". Yearbook of International Humanitarian Law 2010. Yearbook of International Humanitarian Law. 13. Springer Science & Business Media: 429. doi:10.1007/978-90-6704-811-8_14. ISBN 978-90-6704-811-8. It is this direct external control over Gaza and indirect control over life within Gaza that has led the United Nations, the UN General Assembly, the UN Fact Finding Mission to Gaza, International human rights organisations, US Government websites, the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office and a significant number of legal commentators, to reject the argument that Gaza is no longer occupied.
   * Scobbie, Iain (2012). Elizabeth Wilmshurst (ed.). International Law and the Classification of Conflicts. Oxford University Press. p. 295. ISBN 978-0-19-965775-9. Even after the accession to power of Hamas, Israel's claim that it no longer occupies Gaza has not been accepted by UN bodies, most States, nor the majority of academic commentators because of its exclusive control of its border with Gaza and crossing points including the effective control it exerted over the Rafah crossing until at least May 2011, its control of Gaza's maritime zones and airspace which constitute what Aronson terms the 'security envelope' around Gaza, as well as its ability to intervene forcibly at will in Gaza.
   * Gawerc, Michelle (2012). Prefiguring Peace: Israeli-Palestinian Peacebuilding Partnerships. Lexington Books. p. 44. ISBN 9780739166109. In other words, while Israel maintained that its occupation of Gaza ended with its unilateral disengagement Palestinians – as well as many human right organizations and international bodies – argued that Gaza was by all intents and purposes still occupied.

Selfstudier (talk) 09:21, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

CNN

"The U.N. position

In February 2008, Secretary-General Ban was asked at a media availability whether Gaza is occupied territory. "I am not in a position to say on these legal matters," he responded.

The next day, at a press briefing, a reporter pointed out to a U.N. spokesman that the secretary-general had told Arab League representatives that Gaza was still considered occupied.

"Yes, the U.N. defines Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem as Occupied Palestinian Territory. No, that definition hasn't changed," the spokesman replied.

Farhan Haq, spokesman for the secretary-general, told CNN Monday that the official status of Gaza would change only through a decision of the U.N. Security Council." Selfstudier (talk) 09:35, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

• Old requests for peer review
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