Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:56, 19 March 2023

Admins: If one of my admin actions is clearly a mistake or is actively harming the encyclopaedia, please reverse it. Don't wait for me if I'm not around or the case is obvious.

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Marcelus provided numbers (evaluation required)

Hello, I created new discussion in your talk page because I need your evaluation of Marcelus recent actions as well. Yes we had disagreements with him in the past, but I was not involved in any of the three sanctions of Marcelus in the last ~6 months, so I don't know all the details. Thanks for clarifying why he was sanctioned the most recently. Since all three Marcelus' sanctions were in Lithuania / Poland topics it risen a concern to me because I am a long-term editor of Lithuanian topic and I am recognized as one of only two precious editors in "Lithuania" topic, so I seek for high quality content in "Lithuania" topic.
Firstly, it was strange that after little more than 3 hours Marcelus appeared in this nomination in which I requested to rename article name of Paweł Holszański from Polish language to Lithuanian language, despite the fact that Marcelus never before edited this article which was created in 2006 (check edit history of this article).
Secondly, I would like to point out to the way how he presented numbers of allegedly the most common name of Lithuanian noble Paweł Holszański / Povilas Alšėniškis (in my nomination and then in this discussion) by purposefully selecting "Search pages in English only" in the Google search and this way excluding many Lithuanian sources which use name Povilas Alšėniškis (e.g. article of the Universal Lithuanian Encyclopedia). Paweł Holszański is Polish language variant of his name and Povilas Alšėniškis is Lithuanian language variant of his name. By providing such numbers and Google search links in the nomination and discussion Marcelus presented Polish language variant as more common than Lithuanian language variant (455 versus 104). However, by performing neutral Google search with content of all languages we find out that the Lithuanian language variant is much, much more common (19,000 versus 11,400).
This is clearly important for WP:COMMONNAME and most likely will result in a decision if Polonized name of a Lithuanian noble from the Lithuanian noble family Alšėniškiai will be kept. What do you think about such presentation of numbers by Marcelus? Is it according to Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith, WP:NPOV and other Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines? I think it could purposefully mislead other contributors about the most common name of this Lithuanian noble. For example, if we select Italian-only text in the Google search we might also get favorable results for Italian language in the cases of French nobles names, etc.
I believe you see Marcelus' IP address somewhere, so by geolocating his IP address you will find out if he is from Poland or not (I think there is 99% chance that he is from Poland and 1% that he is from a nearby country like Belarus with large Polish minority). This could be useful for identifying why he present such numbers favorable for Polish language and very unfavorable for Lithuanian language. If such Marcelus' activity do not comply with Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines, I think it is an important example of his editing in topics he was recently sanctioned already. Due to the imposed zero-revert limitation he clearly do not perform edit warring anymore, but does such presentation of numbers comply with Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines or is a different type disruptive activity in the same Poland/Lithuania topics? Sorry for my long comment, but I am concerned. -- Pofka (talk) 22:20, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

There are lots of reasons he could have found that discussion that are perfectly innocent. This looks like a content dispute. Editors will inevitably disagree with each other sometimes. It doesn't matter what Marcelus's nationality is or where he edits from. You should focus on discussing the content, not other editors. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:39, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

@HJ Mitchell: But is such presentation of numbers by purposefully excluding Lithuanian sources in a Polish-Lithuanian dispute is Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith (fundamental principle on Misplaced Pages)? He acted in this way after less than a week following your sanctioning, so I think it is important. This could clearly affect voting process and decision making in the nomination. In your sanctioning you stated to Marcelus that "This restriction is indefinite, but I will be willing to reconsider after three months with no violations and no edit warring in other topic areas." So I think he should strictly comply with the Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines, especially its fundamental principles. However, I think such presentation (manipulation?) of statistics could mean violation of Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines, so that's why I requested your evaluation if such content-related activity is disruptive or not.

You are right that all currently recorded sanctions for Marcelus are for revert warring. However, recently there also was a report (two months ago) because he described Zigmas Zinkevičius (famous Lithuanian scientist, author about Lithuanian history and minister) as chauvinistic pig (1, 2) and according to users Cukrakalnis and Turaids (see: archived discussion here) he violated WP:NOTHERE, WP:ICANTHEARYOU, WP:GRUDGE, WP:POVPUSH, WP:SYNTH, WP:OR by trying to insert "anti-Polish" text about Mr. Zinkevičius (for quick understanding of the situation take a glance at Cukrakalnis' initial statement and initially uninvolved editor Turaids' 15:49, 24 January 2023 statement). In this report he was actively defended by (another?) Polish user Piotrus with who he recently exchanged e-mails through Polish Misplaced Pages to communicate privately (evidence). The report was flooded with text and eventually archived without a clear decision if he violated the Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines, despite multiple users saying that he did and the fact that it seemed like this way he caused WP:BATTLEGROUND (I did not participate myself, only saw later what happened).

Afterwards Marcelus and Piotrus began removing content in a contentious topic (see edits of Marcelus: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and Piotrus: 1) which Marcelus initially described as "Plus some additional badmouthing of Poland (...) It's completely off-topic. Basically, the whole Belarusian part should be rewritten" (edit) and "the article is suppose to be about history of coat of arms, not an excuse to spread anti-Polish propaganda" (edit).

So content-wise his editing is worth taking examination as well. By the way, Marcelus today inserted another claim to the same discussion that Paweł Holszański was a Polish-speaking Lithuanian noble (Marcelus' edit), but did not provide any WP:VERIFIABLE WP:RS to support this claim. Can you please ensure that he provide such source having explicitly such quote about Povilas Alšėniškis? Otherwise, I think this could be a violation of WP:OR (7 days after your sanctioning). By the way, one of the provided examples of Misplaced Pages:Nationalist editing is "Famous person is or is not a member of group". -- Pofka (talk) 19:28, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

@Pofka: Your two posts between them are over a thousand words. If you want me to take any action, please make your point concisely. Preferably a tenth of that length. Otherwise you can file at WP:AE but note that walls of text are not accepted there either. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:30, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

@HJ Mitchell: Hello, I was quite busy for the past few days and Marcelus continued behaving in the same way, so today I filed a complaint at WP:AE as you suggested (see: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Marcelus). Since you very recently sanctioned him, please provide your evaluation. -- Pofka (talk) 00:56, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

World War II and the history of Jews in Poland: Arbitration case opened

Hello HJ Mitchell,

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/World War II and the history of Jews in Poland. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/World War II and the history of Jews in Poland/Evidence. Please add your evidence by April 04, 2023, which is when the first evidence phase closes. Submitted evidence will be summarized by Arbitrators and Clerks at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/World War II and the history of Jews in Poland/Evidence/Summary. Owing to the summary style, editors are encouraged to submit evidence in small chunks sooner rather than more complete evidence later.

Details about the summary page, the two phases of evidence, a timeline and other answers to frequently asked questions can be found at the case's FAQ page.

For a guide to the arbitration process, see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration.

For the Arbitration Committee,
~ ToBeFree (talk) 00:13, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks but I'm not touching that with a bargepole. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 09:00, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Question

Hello, I am curious if there is a page that explains what a recent changes patroller is, as I remember you saying something about that. I tried looking at the user access levels page but I can not find it. If you know of one can I see the page that explains it? -- Grapefanatic (talk) 12:14, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi Grapefanatic! The page you're looking for is Misplaced Pages:Recent changes patrol (WP:RCP) but I tend to use the term as a shorthand for all anti-vandalism work that involves looking for and reverting unconstructive edits. Best, HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:11, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

thank you :) -- Grapefanatic (talk) 16:12, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Coke Studio Tamil

Hello! I see you have protected the title “Coke Studio Tamil” for being recreated several times. Therefore, I can not edit the title. However, I think it maybe redirected to Coke Studio (Indian TV program)#Coke Studio Tamil for reference. Can you create the redirection page? I will be glad if you ping me for any other opinion. Regards — Meghmollar2017 (UTC) — 18:42, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

I've created the redirect for you and protected it to prevent an article being written there improperly. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:20, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Having been blocked

Hi HJ, You blocked me for one week for "disruptive editing", although honestly I did not see anything disruptive in my editing. But, be that as it may, in my opinion the people who cheered for me to get blocked were much worse offenders of Misplaced Pages rules. Unfortunately, it appears to me that no one really bothered to read what I had to write, what others wrote, and the content I had attempted to edit. You write above that one should not assume bad faith on the part of other editors, but that is exactly what was done in my case. In fact, given the opportunity, I could, not only say but prove the same for some others (did I mention an editor or an admin? No :). Before I act against some who I believe violate Misplaced Pages rules knowingly and brazenly, and who claimed bad faith on my part while knowing better, I would like to learn your view of exactly why you went ahead and blocked me. Please write. I will not get upset, but I do consider sometimes how some people can get away with what they do, and that does upset me. Thank you.70.164.212.36 (talk) 22:32, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Your edits are highly suggestive of a battleground mentality. That is, you don't appear to be interested in reaching a consensus through discussion, which is what Misplaced Pages is all about, but rather in forcing in what you think is right and attacking anyone who disagrees. Your comments have repeatedly focused on what you perceive as another editor's ethnicity or motives, which again is contrary to the Misplaced Pages principle that we comment on content, not contributors. If you actually engage with the community, you will find that most people here are not agenda-driven warriors or paid propagandists, but ordinary people who are trying to make the encyclopaedia better. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 09:41, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I tried to reach that often mentioned but never precisely described consensus, through the article Talk page, but the opposing editor(s) never really replied and simply deleted my edits with vague reasons. I then filed a dispute since my well supported edits and references got deleted. Where is the battleground mentality in that? There is no way I could explain to you where everything is all wrong, unless you are willing to go through the entire context. Let me instead only ask two simple questions: 1) How does anyone know whether consensus has been reached and can enforce it, and 2) Is knowledge obtainable through a democratic process (in this case, what Misplaced Pages calls consensus) or by way of scholars? I would appreciate your replies and will not comment any further after reading them. By the way, I would definitely agree with you that most people in Misplaced Pages are ordinary people, but unfortunately that most still leaves out a bunch of propagandists, many of them paid, that congregate around their favorite subjects.70.164.212.36 (talk) 21:11, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

There are people who are on Misplaced Pages mostly to advocate for "their" side of history, undoubtedly, but there's not the orchestrated, professional effort that you're describing. That takes a lot of time and resources to put together and would be extremely difficult to keep secret and fairly easy to detect. Consensus is when almost everyone is mostly agreed. One person arguing against everyone else is not a consensus. Two people arguing opposite sides is not a consensus. Asking for a third opinion or a broader range of opinions is the best way to reach an agreement. All you can do is calmly and rationally (and ideally concisely) make your case and present your sources and hope that people agree with you, or at least that you can reach a compromise. But sometimes consensus will go against you. And if that happens, it's more than likely not because of anyone's hidden agenda, that's just the way it goes. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:42, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

curprev 19:11, 18 January 2023‎ TimothyBlue talk contribs‎ 62,747 bytes +95‎ Undid revision 1134447587 by 70.164.212.36 (talk) sources in article support statement in lead infobox undo Tag: Undo

curprev 19:08, 18 January 2023‎ 70.164.212.36 talk‎ 62,652 bytes −95‎ Removed the part of the caption referring to a "Greek genocide" because: 1) the author did not provide any references as to whether there was a "Greek genocide", except a link to a one-sided Misplaced Pages page. 2) Genocide is a legal term applicable only by an international court decision, it cannot be used at will to impress readers. 3) by the authors' own admission of 10K-125K Greek & Armenian fatalities in the fire, it is clear that the shown references have no idea of who died and how many undo Tags: Reverted Visual edit 70.164.212.36 (talk) 19:53, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Hoax

Hi HJ Mitchell. Considering the fact that you are the administrator who deleted this article, I thought maybe I needed to bring this draft to your attention because it appears to be endorsing the same individual who has presented himself as a footballer or singer on multiple occasions. Can an administrator delete a draft, or should we just wait out on the incubating period which is usually 6 months if I'm not mistaken? Keivan.f 14:47, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

@Keivan.f: Hi. The general CSD criteria (G1-13) apply to all namespaces. It's possible that's not a hoax (it doesn't contain the implausible claims that the mainspace version did) but even if it's not it appears to have been created by somebody evading a block so I've deleted it. If the subject is notable, hopefully a legitimate editor will write about them but given your diff, that seems a remote possibility. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:05, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

User:RexxS

Harry, Is it time to put a "retired" notice on his user page? And hide the last para on being a current WMUK trustee etc? It's over 2 years since he edited, sadly. Perhaps you could ask the great man? Best Johnbod (talk) 16:55, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

User you warned is badgering another

I am not competent to argue Polish historigraphy but I don't think they are either. And IMHO they are WGR with a buzzsaw. See what Trangabellam is doing to Marcelus. This is baiting and it's exactly what they did to Minaro123 at Aryan Valley. This is wrong. Elinruby (talk) 11:01, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Elinruby, please consider pinging users when you complain about them to administrators. Like this: @TrangaBellam:. For my part, I think any baiting on that talkpage is at least mutual. Bishonen | tålk 12:39, 17 March 2023 (UTC).

Can you say how am I baiting @TrangaBellam? I didn't even edit a word in the article, I added only cn tags Marcelus (talk) 13:06, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, your reply wasn't here when I started my post. I should have realized you would also be watching the page at let you speak for yourself. Elinruby (talk) 13:30, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

I was pinged by the @Bishonen mention of me. Thank you for noticing the whole thing. Marcelus (talk) 14:00, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

they appear to have an EXTREMELY scorched-earth approach to source verification. I am not seeing this baiting that they responded to by deleting an entire section without prior discussion. Repeatedly. But fine, Bishonen, perhaps this happened on some other article I don't know about. I will however mention that she said that she watches this page the last time they saw me here. And then posted a link (without notifying me) to a thread where they accused me, (also without notifying me), of misrepresenting sources because I called a town a village. I suppose she felt that the accusation discredited me; hard to say, because I wasn't notified of that accusation + threat. Perhaps of course she assumed that I was subscribed to the thread, but this was not an option on mobile until quite recently.

But other things exist of course, so noted. But isn't that where we are on this? Marcelus has been very revert-happy, it's true, and I have been on the receiving end of that before, actually. But he isn't doing it in the linked thread.

I will be extremely careful nonetheless to notify the extremely litigious TrangaBellam the *next* time I perceive her to be in a knife fight with someone trying to respect an edit restriction. I made this post realizing I was painting a target on my back for someone I barely know. So be it. Elinruby (talk) 13:13, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Diffs are important; I do not recall interacting with you outside the Minaro123 issue. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:15, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Also, I do not appreciate your colorful description of me as "extremely litigious". TrangaBellam (talk) 13:16, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

The lengthy list of those you have dragged to the drama boards is a huge impediment to finding that one case where we interacted. I found it quite impressive and think it speaks for itself. Perhaps you should refresh your memory if you don't recall all the accusations you make. My favorite is where I was somehow incompetent as demonstrated by my editor of the week award. Elinruby (talk) 13:25, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

@TrangaBellam: sorry I have been instructed to notify you and I forgot Elinruby (talk) 13:44, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

This is trolling as blatant as it can be. You, obviously, know that it is courteous to ping someone when discussing them for the first time in a new thread but not again in the same thread, esp. when replying to their reply. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:48, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

@TrangaBellam: I don't know, I think Bishonen has a point. I would have appreciated a ping when you said I was distorting a source even though I wasn't citing one. It's not really fair to threaten people who have left the thread already, TrangaBellam. But hey, I forgot to apologize for calling you "they". I was going to fix it, lest this be an insult somehow, but you complained the last time I edited a prior comment, so in the traditional manner of my people I will just have to apologize. Elinruby (talk) 14:24, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

I personally didn't think it was necessary to ping you after you said you watch the page, or whatever you said the here last time you appeared when I protested your MO in this latest AE case o,f yours. Polish AE case that is. You have so many, there are probably others by now. But hey, feel free to hijack another thread on my talk page to insult me again Elinruby (talk) 14:24, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

WikiWikiWayne and ANI

HJ, I opened a thread about WWW at WP:ANI, and you are of course mentioned in the thread.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:23, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for granting me the rollbacker rights. I will be using it at right place, for reverting the edits which are problematic, without removing the latter addition.Admantine123 (talk) 18:20, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

You're welcome. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:23, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Qualified for Rollback Now?

Hello HJ,

Last time we spoke, you granted me reviewer instead of rollbacker because of my account being too young to be familiar enough with policies. It has been a little while and I have definitely learned since then. Having to approve other users edits really tested my knowledge of policies. I understand to only use rollback on vandalism, and I am asking for you to grant rollback now.

I prefer to talk to you directly, here, as opposed to on the large public notice boards, if you were wondering why I am requesting here. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 19:24, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

I am also open to a trial if it would make you feel better. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 19:24, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

We'll start with a one-month trial and see how that goes. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:28, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Sounds good! Thank you. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 19:29, 18 March 2023 (UTC)