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Bad fork

Why is this a separate article from Islamic calendar? AnonMoos (talk) 16:37, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Because it's a separate WP:SCOPE? — LlywelynII 11:51, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Typo?

Shouldn't "The year of the Hirja 622 ..." be "The year of the Hijra 622 ..."? 121.127.212.18 (talk) 04:02, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Conversion to CE?

Does the Hijri year use a lunar year of different length than the CE's solar year resulting in 2013CE-1434AH=579 instead of 622? RJFJR (talk) 04:55, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

OK, I'm seeing clarification at Islamic calendar. Should something about this be added to this article? RJFJR (talk) 17:26, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes. — LlywelynII 11:51, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

there are two hijris in the article

Specify!

"The first day of 1 AH corresponds to July 16, 622, denoted as "1 Muharram 1 AH"."

and then

"In fact however, 1st of Muharram was April 18 in 622 while the Prophet left Mecca on June 21, arrived at Quba on June 28, and entered Medina on July 2 in the year 622."

Which one is it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adoczek (talk • contribs) 01:16, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

WP:ERA

This edit established the usage of the page as BCE/CE. Kindly maintain it consistently pending a consensus to the contrary. — LlywelynII 11:54, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

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No such thing as a "Western" year.

I corrected it to "Gregorian" and someone reverted it without giving a reason. Grassynoel (talk) 10:32, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for engaging in the wp:Bold, Revert, Discuss process. I did actually give an edit note.

Actually you changed a number of names to Gregorian. I agree that "Western year" is un-encyclopedic and should be changed. Common Era should not.

• The Islamic calendar predates the Gregorian reform
• It is unnecessarily insensitive to use the Christian calendar to benchmark the calendars of other religions. "Common Era" provides an acceptable degree of separation, even though their epochs are the same.

I hope that this answers your query. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 12:12, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Start date confusion

An issue with the epoch start is in the article as also mentioned in the Typo and there are two hijris in the article Talk sections above. The article's Definition section gives the start as April 19, 622 CE (Julian), however most other Misplaced Pages articles I saw related to the topic which mention it use July 16, 622 CE, which seems to approximately agree with this article's Formula section (around July 15 if you reverse the fractional number for year 1 into a date), plus any information I could find during a Google search point to July 16 (or July 15th if specifically pointing to sunset of the 15th which marks the start of the 16th if you have the modern division of the day in mind). This would not be a Gregorian versus Julian discrepancy since July 16, 622 CE Julian would be July 19, 622 CE as a proleptic Gregorian calendar date (the Julian was less out of synch in 622 CE compared to now, and even today their dates are not a full 3 months out of synch). From anything I could quickly find, it seems Julian Calendar date Friday July 16, 622 CE (proleptic Gregorian Calendar date Friday July 19, 622 CE) is the actual start date while the April date mentioned in the Definition section is incorrect. I am unable to check the citation given for the April date (the title has the appearance of a fringe religious book—"Chronology of Prophetic Events"—which makes me wonder if it is even an appropriate source). An explanation for the April date would be appreciated as, as far as I can see right now, there's nothing reliable supporting it. — al-Shimoni (talk) 18:22, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

According to Hijri calendar#Year numbering:

1 Muharram of the new fixed calendar corresponded to Friday, 16 July 622 CE, the equivalent civil tabular date (same daylight period) in the Julian calendar. The Islamic day began at the preceding sunset on the evening of 15 July. This Julian date (16 July) was determined by medieval Muslim astronomers by projecting back in time their own tabular Islamic calendar, which had alternating 30- and 29-day months in each lunar year plus eleven leap days every 30 years. For example, al-Biruni mentioned this Julian date in the year 1000 CE. Although not used by either medieval Muslim astronomers or modern scholars to determine the Islamic epoch, the thin crescent moon would have also first become visible (assuming clouds did not obscure it) shortly after the preceding sunset on the evening of 15 July, 1.5 days after the associated dark moon (astronomical new moon) on the morning of 14 July.

which seems a solid citation for 16 July and makes the April date dubious. Unless anyone has better evidence? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 00:03, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

See Pre-Islamic Arabian calendar. July 15 or 16, 622 CE, is the start date in the proleptic Islamic calendar assuming that there were no intercalary months in the first ten years of the calendar. The prohibition of intercalary months in 10 AH implies that intercalation was done previously and this implies that the actual start of 1 AH probably was three lunar months earlier, hence the cited April date. Perhaps it should be stated more clearly that the often cited July 15 (or 16) date for the epoch of the Islamic calendar is based on a strictly lunar calendar (12 months each year, with no intercalation) and that the conversion formula should not be used before 10 AH. AstroLynx (talk) 11:25, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I have just found a source, Burnaby (1901), for that analysis. It says that the July date is the most commonly accepted but it should really be April. I suggest that we need to show both dates somehow but maybe Hijri calendar is the more appropriate place for it? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 12:39, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Hijrah would need additional text too. Any volunteers? (Not me, it's above my pay grade.) --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 13:06, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Who better to ask than Muslims? The Arabic Misplaced Pages page about Hijrah has a few dates equivalents: 12 Rabi al-Awwal 1 AH = 27 September 622 proleptic Gregorian calendar (PGC); 27 Safar 1 AH = 12/13 September 622 PGC; and 8 Rabi al-Awwal 1 AH = 23 September 622 PGC. This brings 1 Muharram 1 AH to July 622, and not to April.

I suppose Caussin de Perceval’s “correction” was never accepted (maybe it wasn’t circulated enough?), and that is why April was not chosen.

Consequently, I think it safe to change the page to mention July, with no mention of April, as I will do so in a minute. CielProfond (talk) 22:16, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

I have reverted your edit as it is unsourced -- Misplaced Pages can never be used as a reliable source as anyone can edit it.

I will be happy to discuss this further but do not make any changes to the text until consensus is reached. AstroLynx (talk) 09:38, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

References

1. Sherrard Beaumont Burnaby, Elements of the Jewish and Muhammadan calendars (1901) pp. 373–5, 382–4.
2. Dershowitz, Nachum; Reingold, Edward (2018). "Table 1.2 Epochs for various calendars". Calendrical Calculations (Third ed.). O'Reilly. p. 17. OCLC 1137352777.
3. al-Biruni, The chronology of ancient nations, tr. C. Edward Sachau (1000/1879) 327.
4. "NASA phases of the moon 601–700". Archived from the original on 8 October 2010.
5. Burnaby, Sherrard Beaumont (1901). Elements of the Jewish and Muhammadan calendars. pp. 374–5.

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