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Extent of cinematic liberty

32,000 girls being trafficked from Kerala is obvious bunkum but is Shalini Unnikrishnan's ordeal based on any true story? TrangaBellam (talk) 18:03, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Hmm. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:08, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

I was trying to bust ‘love jihad’ theory I come from a Communist family and do not believe in ‘love jihad’, a concept which is even being propagated by the likes of UP chief minister Yogi Adityanath. And this is exactly what I wanted to show through my film There is nothing like "love jihad" but the problem is forceful conversions
— Sudipto Sen, in April 2018, defending his documentary against JNU students who alleged his work to advocate for the existence of Love Jihad.

Sen said he didn’t believe "love jihad" exists. However, the film’s official poster and ads described it as a film on "love jihad".
— Times of India, covering the JNU fracas in May 2018.

This political compulsion is such that a Union minister is compelled to tell Parliament: "No constitutional phrase like "love jihad" exists in Indian legal system or society." There is no doubt about the fact that India is a multicultural and diverse country. Inter-religion marriage exists traditionally in our society, from time immemorial. Love itself is religion in our faith and belief. But in these "love jihad" cases, conversion to Islam is the precondition of "love" -- and here lies the conspiracy.
— Sudipto Sen, in September 2021, reminiscing the context of the documentary.

TrangaBellam (talk) 15:17, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Sen's animus aside, that was a good rewrite TB. It was awful before and replete with POV issues. Looks well organised with much simpler and perspicuous prose now, conforms to NPOV to boot. MBlaze Lightning (talk) 21:22, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, MBL! TrangaBellam (talk) 15:20, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

WP:NPOV, MOS:WEASEL, Unsourced statements, Duplicate references

Opinions cannot be written as facts in Misplaced Pages's own voice, as per WP:VOICE.

Statements made in Wikivoice:

• "The film courted controversy after its teaser mounted its fictional claim about ..." changed to "In the film, thousands of girls ..." (writing it as it is) to adhere to NPOV. Also, controversy or plot event accuracy are not to be discussed in the opening paragraph itself, which is intended to provide basic information on the film.
• "... as part of an "international conspiracy" to render Kerala an Islamic state", a blatant violation of WP:VOICE.
• "... release of the film for propagating communal misinformation". Changed to "release of the film, alleging that it "defames Kerala"" as per source.

WP:WEASEL words:

• "Experts from the Observer Research Foundation ...". Word "expert" is a direct violation of WP:WEASEL

Unsourced statements:

• "... having over nine million Muslims, accounts for less than a quarter."

MOS:CLAIM

• "... made such claims for years"
• "She claims to be one of ..." - Also note that, within the film's universe, it's true whether factually accurate or not in real-life.
• "... which, he claimed, Sen compiled" (BTW, what does this even mean?)

Clarifications made on omitted data without which it could be misleading

• "A 2019 document from the Observer Research Foundation note that about 180 – 200 Indians had joined ISIS from Kerala between 2014 and 2018".
• "Members of Indian National Congress and Communist Party of India (Marxist) ..." - Only one member each from these parties has commented on their "personal capacity".
• "Shah commented that "nothing we say will be without evidence" and that Sen had researched for four years", as per source.

Duplicate references:

• There are 3 duplicate references.

The Doom Patrol (talk) 18:04, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Pinging @EI C, @DaxServer, @Acroterion @Dylnuge, @Materialscientist, Tousif ❯❯❯ Talk 04:13, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

@Tousif.15 and @The Doom Patrol can you summarize what content is actually in dispute here? I'm not sure that I entirely understand; I'm assuming I was pinged for being a recent editor on this page, but I only reverted a blatently unconstructive edit, so I'm not engrossed in the content dispute.

That said, I'll do my best to help clarify the policy points above (keep in mind this is just my own interpretation of policies mentioned above; it may be wrong or not applicable to this specific content dispute):

• WP:VOICE still allows acknowledging the existence of controversies where WP:DUE. Statements like "The film courted controversy" don't strike me as an NPOV violation, properly cited. The "fictional claim" bit seems suspect, though. Deciding what coverage of the controversy is due and how to cover it neutrally requires discussion.
• WP:WEASEL does not state that the word "expert" should never be used. A weasel word is where a word is used to give a vague source to a claim, e.g. "Experts believe that ancient humans used to live on the moon." The quote above clearly attributes the claim in question to the "Observer Research Foundation." There may still be a debate over whether to use a different word here for WP:NPOV reasons, but it doesn't appear to be a weasel word usage. Deciding what language is appropriate here requires discussion.
• Similarly, MOS:CLAIM does not proscribe using the word "claim," it simply cautions against using it as a drop-in alternative for neutral language like "said." Again, deciding what language is appropriate here requires discussion.
• Unsourced statements that are controversial or about a living person should be removed immediately (and can then be re-added with citations, if appropriate). Since this article falls under a contentious topic, that seems highly prudent to do here.
• I'm unclear how duplicate references are under content dispute here.

Dylnuge 06:30, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Sangh Parivar in lead?

I would say it could be argued that "it faces allegations of promoting the Sangh Parivar's agenda." doesn't belong in the lead as it is a political allegation made by political parties. We should keep it limited to the opposition section as we have already stated in the lead that this movie portrays false claims. >>> Extorc.talk 18:19, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

I'd agree, the allegations are not widespread and independently covered by RS but rather report of who said what. I'd remove it — DaxServer (t · m · c) 23:42, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

The lead represents the article body so something from the opposition section should be present there, whether it is that or something else from the section it doesn't matter much to me. But I do think it is the best option and gives a decent snapshot of what kind of controversy it is.

The allegation is widespread enough, they come from across party lines in Kerala. There's nothing per se wrong with representing an allegation if they come from political parties, as long it is made clear that it is an allegation and not a definite fact. Also if it were independently stated by RS then it wouldn't be just an allegation. If it helps, I could make it clearer that it comes from political actors. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 02:54, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Clarifying with political actors would be better. Can you do that. I'm fine with that, once the movie is released, the article would evolve anyway, so I don't have any counter arguments right now — DaxServer (t · m · c) 09:58, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

"Political parties in Kerala have accused the filmmakers of promoting the conspiracy theory of Love Jihad." : How about that? Two non-sangh parties accusing something of sangh-like activities is not very explanatory to me. We should be a bit more specific. >>> Extorc.talk 10:03, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

I've specified that it is from political parties now, although haven't changed it to "Love Jihad" which is less widespread of an allegation. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 01:15, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I have removed that Lgvtm (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 00:56, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

An encyclopaedia like Misplaced Pages should not contain wild allegations and so, I suggest you people remove this (Sangh Parivar) allegation.-1Firang (talk) 15:02, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 May 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I want add this data in article AKASH TH15 (talk) 16:27, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Kautilya3 (talk) 16:42, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 May 2023 (2)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please add "The Kerala Story " at The MuseVille to External LinksThe Museville (talk) 23:07, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: It appears that you seek to promote your website or blog in order to gain backlinks. DreamRimmer (talk) 02:26, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Revert

@Tayi Arajakate Please cite the relevant text from those two articles you are using to show that the film was stated to have portrayed itself as a true story, and is stated to be a making a "false claim"? Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 06:55, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm unsure what exactly it is that you want, we aren't supposed to verbatim reproduce the terms used in sources if that is what you seek. Our job is to summarise them. These two facts are pretty clear in the sources, they are free to access and you can read them yourself. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 07:39, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

If you are summarising the whole report in your own words, that would be SYNTH. If there are 2-4 lines you can quote for them, please do. I have gone through them, they call the claims unsubstantiated with fact but not outright false, and they dont accuse the film of claiming factual accuracy. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 08:25, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Summarising the whole report in one's own words is not synthesis, that's exactly how article content is written. The fact check quite meticulously breaks down the claims and shows them to be inaccurate. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 09:04, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

From the WP:SYNTH page, Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. Not only are you combining what was written in different parts of the source, you are combining the whole source to reach a conclusion not found anywhere in the source. That is WP:SYNTH. The reports say there is no supporting evidence for it. You say its a false claim. Reports say people applauded filmmakers on Twitter for portraying a true story. You claim filmmakers said the story was true. Both are different.Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 09:15, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

This is denial of what the sources say and I'd rather not entertain it anymore.

For the sake of clarity. The report is very clear in showing that the filmmakers are depicting the story to be based on true events.

Directed by Sudipto Sen and produced by Vipul Amrutlal Shah, ‘The Kerala Story’ claims to unearth the happenings behind 32,000 women who went missing in the state of Kerala. Sharing the teaser of the movie, Sen tweeted, “Shalini, Geetanjali, Nimah &Asifa marked my lifeline since last 5yrs. Choking me till I tell their stories. Soon u’ll get to see a film which u never imagined, in ur remotest imagination. Thank u Ambikaji, @YaduVJkrishnan, @sunshinepicture & Vipul A Shah from bottom of my heart.”

In a conversation with ANI published in ThePrint in March 2022, Sen further said, “As per a recent investigation, since 2009 – nearly 32,000 girls from Kerala and Mangalore from Hindu and Christian communities have been converted to Islam and most of them end up landing in Syria, Afghanistan, and other ISIS and Haqqani influential areas! Despite accepting these facts, the government is hardly contemplating any definitive action plan against such huge international conspiracies led by ISIS-influenced groups.” The character of Fatima, seen in the teaser, is played by actress Adah Sharma. She also shared the viral clip with the hashtag #TrueStory.

The report also doesn't just say there is "no supporting evidence for it", it fact checks them, digs into each part of it, shows falsehoods, claims based on false premises and compares it with real data. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 09:56, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Based on true events is a very common terminology and is different from it being true events. The sentence currently claims the fimmakers to be calling it to be a true story, not based on a true story, which is the accurate phrase.

And it concludes, not that the statements are false, but To sum it up, Alt News found that Sudipto Sen, the director of ‘The Kerala Story’, has repeatedly claimed that 32,000 women have joined ISIS either from India or just Kerala, and mentioned this in his film, without any evidence to back the claim.

The sentence I had used, The film has courted controversy for claiming that thousands of women from Kerala are being converted to Islam and recruited into ISIS, without evidence to support this claim is much more accurate to the source than the current "summary". Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 10:52, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

That's just a cherrypicked line, skipping over the rest of the article and sure, we can change it to something like "apparent depiction of true story". Tayi Arajakate _Talk 11:26, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Reply away from above discussion: It is reported that in the end credit of the film they said that film is not based on true events and the claim they made that "32,000 girls are recruited in ISIS in the past ten years" are taken from an unknown website which they can't find now. Also they changed this claim in there teaser from 32,000 to 3 girls. Looks like they have made film on data provided by some unreliable source which is not alive now. Tousif ❯❯❯ Talk 11:43, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Interesting, has this been reported by any RS yet? If so it could be added and used as an update, turning the controversy into past tense. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 11:46, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Not for now but definitely for tomorrow. Tousif ❯❯❯ Talk 11:53, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Thats not a cherry picked line, that is Alt News's summary of their own article. If you have any line that calls it outright false, do post here, otherwise till then I have changed the sentence both sourced correctly and which may be acceptable to you. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 12:00, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Supreme Court refuses stay of movie from releasing

Please add that Supreme Court quashed petitioner's request to stay the release of film and asked petitioner to go to High Court.

CJI quoted "No, we cannot entertain this. We are not seized of the case. The Central Board of Film Certification cleared it. The Kerala High Court refused to stay, and we declined yesterday. Now, after three steps, it is improper for us to hear this." "That bench has applied its mind. Think from the view of the film producer. How many challenges will he face? You must think of the actors and producers – they have all put in their labour. You must be very careful about seeking a stay on films"

https://www.indiatoday.in/law/story/the-kerala-story-supreme-court-refuses-stay-filmmaking-hard-work-2368590-2023-05-04

Sudipto Sen in a television interview to Republic TV on 4th May said that Censor Board clear it after 2 months of scrutiny as they provided video evidence of every single interview to censor board. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyeX864McCg 118.189.49.2 (talk) 07:11, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Already added Tousif ❯❯❯ Talk 11:23, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Love jihad cases of Kerala

On the Love jihad talk page, I have mentioned some cases (other cases are not) of Love jihad in Kerala here - I don't want to repeat those here. Please add them to this article also if you people deem it fit. I am new here and can't make 500 edits to become eligible to edit this article.-1Firang (talk) 10:20, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a platform for the propagation of conspiracy theories. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:34, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

This is an article about the film "The Kerala Story" not about kerala state. These points has nothing to do with this film. Tousif ❯❯❯ Talk 11:21, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Reception

The IMDb rating of the movie The Kerala Stories is 8.2. Times Now has rated it as 3.5. How do I add these facts in the reception section? here are supporting links

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt24268454/

https://www.timesnownews.com/entertainment-news/the-kerala-story-movie-review-the-kerala-story-imdb-rating-public-review-reaction-the-kerala-story-twitter-review-updates-article-100011217/amp Rojvatokaro (talk) 04:39, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

IMDB rating are user generated and could has biases, while this section is for reviews from reputed critic's. Any user generated content or reviews are not allowed. I will add review of Times now. Tousif ❯❯❯ Talk 05:16, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Restore

In a few hours, I will restore the content as in this version but preserve the couple of lines about litigation. TrangaBellam (talk) 09:22, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Don't think that would be good. What's wrong with the current version? Tayi Arajakate _Talk 09:27, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

For a starter, where is the following paragraph?

Sen, the director of the film, has made such claims for years; in 2018, he had directed a documentary on the involuntary mass-conversion of 33,000 Hindu and Christian girls to Islam as part of an "international conspiracy" to render Kerala an Islamic state.

Then, we do not really need to source the data about the number of ISIS recruits from three sources! ORF is a secondary source (and quite reputed in these areas) who screened the government data and analyzed them for us.

Why do we have a blow-by-blow account of Kerala's deliberations to take legal recourse? Undue and NOTNEWS. TrangaBellam (talk) 09:31, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

The blow by blow account is undue yeah, that should be removed. I think the entire legal aspect of it just needs to be re-written in a sentence or two, it didn't amount to much. The paragraph on Sen's previous "documentary" is a bit tangential but if you think appropriate, could re-introduce it though I think other aspects such as say Sen's first teaser which just contained a mistranslated video are a lot more relevant. For whether the data is necessary, I think a bit more detailed account of it is warranted, rather than a single sentence; the Indian government data present in the article is coming through ORF's filtering anyways.

There's a lot of other material that is lost if we revert to the older version though, its a bit too undeveloped in comparison at this point. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 10:25, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 May 2023

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at The Kerala Story. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

A sentence in the lead reads, "The plot follows the story of a group of women from Kerala who converted to Islam and joined the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS)"; please change it to, "The plot follows the real life story of a group of women from Kerala who converted to Islam and joined the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS)."-1Firang (talk) 17:32, 6 May 2023 (UTC) 1Firang (talk) 17:32, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

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