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Revision as of 20:45, 15 July 2023 editAl-Andalusi (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users12,094 edits →Category:Arabs from al-Andalus← Previous edit Revision as of 21:07, 15 July 2023 edit undoAl-Andalusi (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users12,094 edits →Category:ArabNext edit →
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:::::{{ping|Nederlandse Leeuw}} that's not what I said… I meant, either list all of the combination that I listed; or ONLY list 1 category for renaming, viz. ] to ]. Your new nomination does not propose to use ] for either the ethnic group or for biographies. I suppose it could be a disambiguation for "Arabs (ethnic group)" and "Arab people", but it goes against the previous CFD rationale not to follow the article name ] for either category. – ] ] 17:27, 15 July 2023 (UTC) :::::{{ping|Nederlandse Leeuw}} that's not what I said… I meant, either list all of the combination that I listed; or ONLY list 1 category for renaming, viz. ] to ]. Your new nomination does not propose to use ] for either the ethnic group or for biographies. I suppose it could be a disambiguation for "Arabs (ethnic group)" and "Arab people", but it goes against the previous CFD rationale not to follow the article name ] for either category. – ] ] 17:27, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
::::::@] Ok what should I change? ] (]) 20:33, 15 July 2023 (UTC) ::::::@] Ok what should I change? ] (]) 20:33, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' This proposal and many others have made it very clear that Nederlandse Leeuw has no idea what they're talking about. Going to ping the "Arab world" WikiProject so more knowlegable editors step in and put a stop to this madness. Right now, the discussions seem to be driven by 3 editors of presumably European descent with cursory knowledge of the region in question. ] (]) 21:06, 15 July 2023 (UTC)


==== Category:Arabs from al-Andalus ==== ==== Category:Arabs from al-Andalus ====

Revision as of 21:07, 15 July 2023

< July 5 July 7 >

July 6

Category:Sep 2007 Jewish Christianity editorial disputes

Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT. This category has only 1 entry. Estopedist1 (talk) 19:59, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Category:Arab

Nominator's rationale: WP:ARBITRARYCAT WP:SUBJECTIVECAT. I had already removed "Category:Muslim communities in Africa" and "Category:Muslim communities in Asia" with the edit summary "Arabs are not Muslim by definition. This is an incorrect generalisation." (Millions of Arabic speakers are irreligious, Christian, Jewish, or adherents of other religions. Arab =/= Muslim.) But I now see that there are multiple issues with the category as a whole. Why can't people whose native language is Arabic, but have been born and raised outside MENA be called "Arabs", for example? Why does geography matter? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 09:38, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
PS: (edit conflict) I do think that Category:Arabs may be a legitimate category within the Category:People by ethnicity tree. But it needs to be Purged from "people by nationality" subcategories such as Category:Syrian people and Category:Iraqi people, because this categorisation implies all Syrian and Iraqi nationals are "Arabs", even if their native language is Kurdish, Turkmeni, Turkish, Persian etc. Nationality and ethnicity of groups of people rarely/never coincide completely; in reality, humanity is a series of Venn diagrams. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:26, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
Hey @Marcocapelle, you saved your edit just before I could add this postscript. What do think of this? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:29, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Reopening per Special:Permalink/1163761648#NAC_requests_July_2023.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 13:12, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

  • I am still confused as to why this category can't be merged to Category:Arab world, the two concepts are not the same but very overlapping. Arab world is defined by Arab ethnicity. One of the articles in this category even has "of the Arab world" in the title, so why would it not belong in Category:Arab world? Marcocapelle (talk) 06:31, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
    • Arab world has a geographic focus. Ethnicity transcends geography.
    Genetic history of the Arab world does belong in Arab world, which is why I added it there. But it also belongs in the top category about Arab ethnicity, because it is specifically about "ethnic Arab populations" in the Arab world.
    IMHO Arab diaspora should be in the top category Arab, alongside Arab world. I don't object to it also bring in the people category, as it includes both general and biography articles. -– Fayenatic London
  • Arab world has a geographic focus. Ethnicity transcends geography. I'm afraid you can't have your cake and eat it too, because the word "Arab" depends on ethnicity, as all parents of Category:Arab, Category:Arab world and Category:Arabs show. The term "Arab world" depends on an ethnic group called "Arabs" living in it, even though, indeed, Ethnicity transcends geography (I completely agree with that). That's how "Arabs" can live in Brussels, but nobody would categorise Belgium as part of the so-called "Arab world".
The term "Arab world" is necessarily a generalisation, and cannot be anything other than a generalisation. Some generalisations may be useful for certain purposes (such as the article Arab world), but not for categorisation purposes per WP:CATSPECIFIC, WP:ARBITRARYCAT and WP:SUBJECTIVECAT. (Just because there is an article doesn't mean there should be an identically-named category).
Therefore, Category:Arab world cannot serve a proper categorisation purpose and should be Deleted or Merged, Category:Arab cannot serve a proper categorisation purpose and should be Deleted (and it almost already was before this CfD was reopened), and Category:Arabs cannot have a geographic focus because Ethnicity transcends geography and should be Purged. Repurposing Category:Arab people for individuals is an additional option we can use to fix the issues here (because it is a redirect, we practically don't need a CfS to do it, as I suggested earlier, although formally agreeing to repurpose it for that purpose may be a good idea). Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:06, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
Something like this? If you've got corrections or additions, please say so. I wanna do this correctly from the beginning. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:36, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
Simpler than that; do it all as renaming, to keep the page history of each category:
etc. I'm not sure the proposal will gain consensus, but I won't oppose it. As a simpler alternative, consider renaming only Category:Arab to Category:Arabs (ethnic group). – Fayenatic London 14:08, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
@Fayenatic london Thanks very much! Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 15#Arabs and Arab people. You are invited to participate. Should we close this CfD, and change the target of the CfD template at Category:Arab to Category:Arabs (ethnic group) and tell people to go to Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 15#Arabs and Arab people for the discussion instead? Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:19, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
@Nederlandse Leeuw: that's not what I said… I meant, either list all of the combination that I listed; or ONLY list 1 category for renaming, viz. Category:Arab to Category:Arabs (ethnic group). Your new nomination does not propose to use Category:Arabs for either the ethnic group or for biographies. I suppose it could be a disambiguation for "Arabs (ethnic group)" and "Arab people", but it goes against the previous CFD rationale not to follow the article name Arabs for either category. – Fayenatic London 17:27, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
@Fayenatic london Ok what should I change? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:33, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose This proposal and many others have made it very clear that Nederlandse Leeuw has no idea what they're talking about. Going to ping the "Arab world" WikiProject so more knowlegable editors step in and put a stop to this madness. Right now, the discussions seem to be driven by 3 editors of presumably European descent with cursory knowledge of the region in question. Al-Andalusi (talk) 21:06, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Category:Arabs from al-Andalus

Nominator's rationale: rename, we use the format "of fooish descent" throughout modern and pre-modern times. I can't quite see why we would not apply the same format to a medieval category. A counter-argument might be that the expression "of Arab descent" was not used in contemporary medieval sources, but Christian sources often used "moors" and we have depracated that term for categorization. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:52, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
Question Isn't Fooian people of Barian descent meant to indicate two countries/nationalities? "Arab" is neither. It is most commonly used for native speakers of the Arabic language. Egyptian, Libyan, Tunisian, Algerian, Moroccan etc., those are nationalities. Arab is not. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:30, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Nothing wrong with "Arabs", which was a very important category to the people of al-Andalus. See Göran Larsson, Ibn García's Shuʿūbiyya Letter: Ethnic and Theological Tensions in Medieval al-Andalus (Brill, 2003). Srnec (talk) 16:47, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose to the use of "Arabian", as not all Arab tribes hailed from the Arabian Peninsula. The proposed "Arab descent" alternative is fine, although longer and less readable. Al-Andalusi (talk) 20:45, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
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