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Request for suggestions - Feminist Economics Critique
Hi all,
I'd like to change the Feminist Economics overview which is currently contained within the "Criticism" section of the article. Currently, part of this section states: "Primary criticisms focus on alleged failures to account for: the selfish nature of actors (homo economicus); exogenous tastes; the impossibility of utility comparisons; the exclusion of unpaid work; and the exclusion of class and gender considerations."
I'm not well versed in Feminst Economics and as such, dont feel comfortable implementing the changes myself. To anyone who's familiar with the literature could you please suggest a good change that addresses the following issues (discussed below) contained in the quoted part above:
- 1. "failure to account for: the selfish nature of actors". - Issues: Their criticism is not a failure in economics to account for "the selfish nature of actors", but rather the very assumptions of selfish actors.
- 2. "the impossibility of utility comparisons". - Issues: Utility is ordinal, so more is better and as such can be compared in the sense that 'bigger is better'. Utility can be translated into expenditure ($$) via the duality between Marshallian and Hicksian demand. If they are talking about comparing between individuals, then it's impossible in the sense that utility functions are specific to an individuals tastes. So mathematically, they're different functions. If they are instead referring to comparisons for an individual for different levels of utiliy, then the criticism is about the inability to compare the magnitude between two utility levels. E.g. A utility value of 4 vs a utility value of 2, although 4 is double 2, it does not mean the individual is twice as 'better-off'. What do they mean?
Hopefully this doesnt read like some forum post, I just wanted to check if anyone out there who is familiar with these critiques could shed some light on and/or suggest a suitable edit.
- I agree that the current "failure to account for" wording is confusing.Dsp13 (talk) 13:50, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
Women in economics
Loosely following French WP page for Economics, I added some brief material on women in economics as a subsection of the Profession section. SPECIFICO removed some of it, and suggested talk page discussion.
1. (removed as "gratuitous OR") "Though men have historically dominated the economics profession, some women economists achieved early prominence. For example, ..." .
- I'm unsure whether by WP:OR is meant the claim (a) that men have historically dominated the economics profession or (b) that some women economists achieved early prominence. Neither are something I made up, and both are easily verifiable. As for "gratuitous", perhaps the difference between SPECIFICO and me is stylistic: I intended this as brief scaffolding (admittedly involving some redundancy!), but also to make clear that the women economists listed were exceptionally prominent examples, rather than (on the one hand) a complete list of early women economists or (on the other) reflecting historical female dominance of the economic profession. I'd be interested to know consensus here. Perhaps it could be phrased more simply: "Though men predominated in the early economics profession, some women economists achieved prominence. For example, ..."
2. (removed as "UNDUE content based on unpublished undergraduate paper about a chat room") "A 2017 study found widespread gender stereotyping on a job market rumor forum for United States academic economics positions, amounting to a 'toxic environment' for women in the profession."
- I was initially happy to agree, until I noticed that a Google Books search shows Wu's paper has been cited in over 20 books. So I thought this would be good to air also.
Best wishes, Dsp13 (talk) 14:44, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- (1) is telling the reader how to interpret the subsequent factual content. The factual content can be greatly expanded and would benefit the article. The unsourced lead-in is not NPOV and fails WP:V. It's opinion, and even if a source or two can be found that share such an opinion, it is not the WEIGHT of mainstream thinking.
- (2) Is silly stuff and give the tens of millions of books indexed with google, the fact that 20 cite such a non-RS paper is patently unremarkable and does not invalidate core WP policy.
- Thanks for your contribution of the sourced factual part of that section. SPECIFICO talk 14:50, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- I don't understand your reference to 'the WEIGHT of mainstream thinking'. Do you know of any ('mainstream' or not!) sources that suggest that either (a) men did not predominate in the early economics profession, or (b) the women I mentioned did not achieve prominence? Your suggestion that the material could be expanded is interesting. I was actually trying to avoid unbalancing the Profession section by giving too many examples. But clearly there are many more (see e.g. Edith Kuiper's A Herstory of Economics).I disagree with you here about what is 'silly stuff'. Misogynist talk is silly, sure, but it's not thereby inconsequential - and so measuring its prominence within a profession isn't silly at all. Dsp13 (talk) 15:20, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- It's silly because it's an undergraduate with a statistics software package who thinks some jobs chatroom is an important indicator of "a profession", society, or world culture. If you are interested in improving our coverage of women in economics, I suggest you start with Janet Yellen Juanita M. Kreps Elinor Ostrom, Christina Romer, and others who have made front page news and then delve into notable academics and business leaders and other civic figures who happened to be economists. SPECIFICO talk 17:42, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- Don't disagree about Yellen etc., but whether or not women face weird hostility from men in the economic job market seems relevant to the state of the profession. I realise I didn't address your point about the Wu paper not being a RS. I was actually thinking of the Justin Wolfers NYT piece as the RS, and provided the link to the Wu paper for convenience. Would taking that ref out assuage your concerns? Dsp13 (talk) 20:33, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- No, NYT is chit-chat. UNDUE and not encyclopedic, just a day's copy. It's not as if they are reporting a news event and it is basically just conveying a single narrow view. There could be a WP article about the status of women in various professions or academic specializations, but this page is about Economics, not even about economists, and this content is marginal even if fleshed-out and well-sourced. It's kind of WP:COATRACK. SPECIFICO talk 20:58, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- Stephanie Kelton comes to mind, but Category:Women economists contains at least 50 people, another 200 or so in Category:American women economists. I think the main question, which we can't answer in the article because as SPECIFICO says it would be OR, is, do women have trouble being economists, or did women basically have trouble being any high-powered profession prior to whenever the women's liberation movement picked up some steam. Probably the case, so focusing on this in the article is undue weight. Andre🚐 21:51, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- No, NYT is chit-chat. UNDUE and not encyclopedic, just a day's copy. It's not as if they are reporting a news event and it is basically just conveying a single narrow view. There could be a WP article about the status of women in various professions or academic specializations, but this page is about Economics, not even about economists, and this content is marginal even if fleshed-out and well-sourced. It's kind of WP:COATRACK. SPECIFICO talk 20:58, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- I don't understand your reference to 'the WEIGHT of mainstream thinking'. Do you know of any ('mainstream' or not!) sources that suggest that either (a) men did not predominate in the early economics profession, or (b) the women I mentioned did not achieve prominence? Your suggestion that the material could be expanded is interesting. I was actually trying to avoid unbalancing the Profession section by giving too many examples. But clearly there are many more (see e.g. Edith Kuiper's A Herstory of Economics).I disagree with you here about what is 'silly stuff'. Misogynist talk is silly, sure, but it's not thereby inconsequential - and so measuring its prominence within a profession isn't silly at all. Dsp13 (talk) 15:20, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
References
- Wu, Alice H. (2018). "Gendered Language on the Economics Job Market Rumors Forum" (PDF). AEA Papers and Proceedings. 108: 175–179. doi:10.1257/pandp.20181101. Earlier version at "Gender Stereotyping in Academia: Evidence from Economics Job Market Rumors Forum" (PDF). Retrieved August 30, 2022.
- Wolfers, Justin (August 18, 2017). "Evidence of a Toxic Environment for Women in Economics". The New York Times. Retrieved August 30, 2022.
Semi-protected edit request on 27 December 2022
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Change "Economic analysis can be applied throughout society, including business, finance, health care, engineering and government."
To
"Economic analysis can be applied throughout society, including business, finance, cybersecurity, health care, engineering, and government. " Mazaherkianpour (talk) 13:23, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
Done ![[REDACTED]](https://u3vuiephb.global.ssl.fastly.net/File:Misplaced Pages-logo-v2.svg){kind=link}
References
- Kianpour, Mazaher; Kowalski,, Stewart; Øverby, Harald (2021). "Systematically Understanding Cybersecurity Economics: A Survey". Sustainability. 13. doi:10.3390/su132413677.
{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)
India Education Program course assignment
This article was the subject of an educational assignment at Symbiosis School of Economics supported by Misplaced Pages Ambassadors through the India Education Program during the 2011 Q3 term. Further details are available on the course page.
The above message was substituted from {{IEP assignment}} by PrimeBOT (talk) on 20:10, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
Stating by whom has the S/D model been made in the introduction
I'd like to suggest to modify the sentence "The supply and demand model describes how..." to "The supply and demand model by Alfred Marshall describes how..." for describing the supply and demande curves in the introduction of the wiki page. MDCCCC (talk) 23:23, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
European economics
The page does not inform about Asian economics: China, India. Xx236 (talk) 06:36, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 27 August 2023
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"Other wschools or trends of thought referring " should read "Other schools or trends of thought referring" Rlu13 (talk) 03:54, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
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