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Lightburst

Leyo

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Leyo

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

KoA (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 16:32, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Leyo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#Contentious_topic_designation

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#Casting_aspersions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. October 3, 2023 Comment on the two users who voted for deletion of this article: Smartse states on their user page “This editor is an exclusionist.” KoA has removed valid content from this article in edit warring mode. Pursuing editors to AFD and sniping at editors rather than focusing on content.
2. October 5, 2023 This is not really a surprise bearing in mind that JzG’s only contribution to this article was deletion of content. Similar sniping, this time at JzG.
3. October 6, 2023 Continued dismissal of WP:TPNO/WP:FOC, selectively removing talk page sniping, but choosing to let sniping towards me and JzG remain. _{Added Oct. 11}
4. See previous AE for diffs dealt with there

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. 2013 Warned at ANI for aspersions in pesticide topics
2. August 2023 Administrative action review (following me around and making a block a WP:INVOLVED block).
3. August 2023 AE closed with no action, but Bradv advised Leyo to read the comments and course-correct.

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

• August 21, 2016
• October 17, 2018
• June 4, 2023 (see the system log linked to above).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

After the last AE, I was advised to come back here if Leyo kept hounding editors and sniping on article talk pages and recent discussion here. More diffs/background on Leyo are at that AE link; the short summary is that I've dealt for years with WP:ASPERSIONS from Leyo (see the GMO principle for how disruptive editors frequently used those tactics to poison the well). They escalated the harassment this August where despite multiple cautions that they were WP:INVOLVED related to me, they used their admin tools to block me. This was pretty resoundingly found as both an involved and bad block on substance at XRV as well as some comments about Leyo clearly following my edits to articles they haven't edited. The first time I came to AE, it was to get help with the behavior problems independent of the admin tool abuse.

Not addressing Leyo's behavior at AE seems to have emboldened them where they are now sniping at other editors on talk pages engaging in poisoning the well at perceived opponents in a very clear WP:BATTLEGROUND fashion. After the AE, I recently did have to remind Leyo I was trying to avoid them as much as possible and asked them to do the same after some sniping about me using the term "we" when referring to multiple editors who had been working on improving an article. That one incident was so low-level I was just trying to ignore it, but they're clearly not going to leave me alone it seems.

The first diff has Leyo showing up at an AfD for an article they never edited (potential WP:HOUNDING), but even if the article was on their watchlist, that would still be no excuse for continued sniping. This escalated to Leyo going after SmartSE in that diff and then JzG in the next diff despite being warned so many times, especially after the last caution by Bradv. This pursuit is why I asked for an interaction ban originally since Leyo basically just said they'd step back from admin duties, but repeatedly remained silent on the underlying behavior. Since Leyo is now targeting other editors though, I don't know if an interaction ban towards me alone would solve the issues, but I'm opening this because multiple editors and admins have also requested it. KoA (talk) 16:32, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

As I looked into this more, I've been finding that Leyo has been doing this under the radar as textbook WP:TE behavior for about a decade now in this topic starting with the warning I linked at ANI in 2013 for comments like Your massive removal of content and your arguments remind me on industry positions and tactique targeting Bon courage. There was another ANI in 2019 were Leyo also went after JzG in the pesticide topic threatening to block JzG if Leyo didn't get their way. It's very clear Leyo is treating chemical topics as a personal battleground stirring the pot in the same way that led the GMO ArbCom case. KoA (talk) 16:48, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Admin replies

• Extraordinary Writ, I'll be brief, but I am away for the next few days (possibly more depending on the situation) as mentioned on Doug's page, so please consider this my short extension request while I'm away. I don't plan to post here further unless admins have specific remedy questions for me I could help with.

Just to clarify, that Leyo hasn't been moving the needle recently (i.e., deescalating) while still sidestepping discussion of their battleground attitude despite all of the formal and informal warnings over the last decade is why I posted this. There are two very clear recent diffs here of Leyo sniping to attack or cast doubt over the editor in content disputes to directly cite the aspersions principle. I'm very worried about the anti-WP:FOC policy atmosphere Leyo is normalizing in the topic (similar to Gtoffoletto here who was recently blocked for sniping/asperisons towards me). To address comments by others, being an admin doesn't permit one to engage in battleground behavior, nor does it exclude them from standard AE actions where ArbCom already established this behavior is a problem.

In whatever decision there is, I just ask that the long-term harassment in content discussion stop not just of me, but of other editors. I'd also ask admins when discussing remedies to think about how much more those of us who don't resort to this behavior and have been stewarding the subject for years (even through ArbCom) should really be asked to deal with the sniping and timesink from Leyo's behavior. In that regard, I'd recommend reading MastCell's admin comment from a previous pesticide AE, we're being actively unkind to the subset of constructive, well-behaved editors. . . KoA (talk) 05:03, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• HJ Mitchell, could you clarify what you mean by a sitewide IBAN is not ultra vires? FYI, we actually have such one-way Ibans put in place with the GMO/pesticide DS, like against Sashirolls towards Tryptofish (more background here), and can be a step prior to a topic ban to try to reduce disruption of this nature in the hope addressing a core problem interaction reduces the other issues. That case has a few parallels here in that I'm not the only target of Leyo, but I've also been trying avoid Leyo when I could unless content interaction basically forced it. If that is an option admins pursue, happy to discuss details/logistics (probably back online Wednesday). KoA (talk) 00:07, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Leyo

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Leyo

I mostly disagree with the statements/interpretations above, e.g.:

• I was not hounding anyone here. When I edited the de.wikipedia version in 2015, I added the en.wikipedia article to my watchlist (as I often do with other articles). At that time, I intended to improve both language versions, but I probably forgot about it or I didn't find the time. I noticed the AfD tagging by an obscure IP from Finland with few days delay, because I was offline during several days for real-life reasons.
• JzG is probably right concerning my language skills. English was only the fourth language I learnt after German, French and Latin. While I am used to read and write scientific texts, I am much less so finding the appropriate wording in delicate discussions. In contrast, I consider KoA to be exceptionally skilled to find convincing wording in discussions.
• As opposed to KoA's claim above, most of my contributions in Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Pesticide Action Network are solely on the content. However, I felt it is an important piece of (factual) information for the closing admin that a certain user has removed (in my view) clearly valid content (example) from the article (without which the views of uninvolved users in the AfD discussions). At the same time, I should not have mentioned Smartse's exclusionist user page tag, since it is unrelated to the AfD discussion. Apologies for that.
• As I decided not start a new battleground (and lacked the energy and time), I did not revert KoA's and JzG's removal of valid content from the article in 2019 and in 2023 (which I became aware of via my watchlist).
• Most of the diffs provided above and below are from before the AE in August 2023, i.e. they have already been considered.

--Leyo 21:19, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Of the users giving statements in this AE, Darkfrog24 is the only user who is not involved in the case (not counting admin Extraordinary Writ who is not involved either).

If anyone still thinks I'm lying and that I found the AfD by following KoA instead of via my watchlist, they might want to take note of e.g. this 2019 discussion about the mass removal of references to pesticideinfo.org (see also PesticideInfo chemical ID (P11949)), a database run by PAN. --Leyo 15:10, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Z1720's recommendation to pursue other topics is not really an option for me, since chemicals are my main area of interest (here and on de.wikipedia). The overlap with KoA is rather limited. --Leyo 00:18, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Tryptofish seems to refer to WT:MEDRS as an example where I followed KoA. However, I started the thread and KoA joined the discussion. BTW: Tryptofish might have exceeded the word limit.

I wanted to note that in addition to the few diffs listed above and below, which extend over a long period of time, I've also regularly been the target of users mentioned or commenting in this AE (recent example). A one-way IBAN would not be an appropriate measure IMHO. As vice versa, I also try to avoid KoA as much as possible. --Leyo 22:26, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Smartse

Given the short interval since the admin action review and the arbitration enforcement, it was surprising to see Leyo arrive at the AFD which KoA had already !voted in considering that they have never edited the article nor the talk page despite several recent discussions. At least to me, it appears as if they have continued to follow KoA around in what seems to be a clear case of WP:HOUNDING. It was even more surprising given the recent admonishments they were given about their behaviour that they have chosen to make snide remarks questioning the motives of myself, KoA and JzG. The previous AE discussion was moving towards an IBAN between KoA and Leyo, but given that they are now targeting multiple editors who oppose them, I suggest that a topic ban is now necessary. SmartSE (talk) 17:35, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Tryptofish

KoA and Smartse have already provided pretty much all the relevant documentation, but I do want to add this diff: , from the recent WT:MEDRS discussion that also included the exchange about the supposed "royal we". Taken with the multiple diffs already provided above, especially those from the current AfD, one can see a very repetitious and ongoing pattern of Leyo going after other editors (KoA, Smartse, JzG, maybe others) who have different views about GMO/chemical content than Leyo has, and making unsubstantiated assertions that those editors' views should not be taken as valid. What really stands out to me is that, following the recent AE, the premise was that if Leyo backed off from the hostile interactions with KoA and others, no further action would be needed. Unfortunately, what is abundantly clear here is that, instead, Leyo has done the opposite. Although not using admin tools, Leyo has nonetheless continued the battleground conduct directed at his perceived adversaries, unabated. Clearly, the advice of the previous AE didn't work. Sanctions are needed. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:20, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

I see Leyo's reply as confirming the need for sanctions. Perhaps Leyo does have some language limitations, but competence is required. Even if Leyo was not hounding anyone, that does not justify what he has said about other editors. He acknowledges this about Smartse, but not about KoA or JzG, which is telling. Neither does being "right" about content justify it. And if anyone wants to get a handle on where Gtoffoletto's statement is coming from, just see Talk:Glyphosate#RfC: is the EFSA factsheet on Glyphosate an accurate summary of the EFSA's review?. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:59, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

To admins: It may be a distraction to look at this in terms of whether there was hounding in the sense of following editors, or whether it was just a matter of finding the discussions through a watchlist. But that's beside the point, once one considers that (1) the previous AE instructed Leyo to tone it down (just not logged), and (2) there was a review of the KoA block that clearly informed Leyo that the community did not support that administrative action. In that context, one should see the two subsequent discussions (WT:MEDRS and the AfD) as places where, even if Leyo found each of them via watchlist, there is no getting around the fact that Leyo had to have seen that it was KoA who was there. And yet Leyo commented to KoA and JzG as he did, and indicates in his statement here that he feels justified in having done so. Please don't let your caution in not wanting to "tip the balance" with regard to an admin conduct issue lead you to treat an admin more cautiously than you would any other editor. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:27, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, Harry. I think what you say is reasonable, and I made that comment in the spirit of making sure that those aspects of the case are considered. No, I don't think there are additional options beyond those you list. I think a topic ban is within the realm of things to consider, and other editors have been tbanned from GMOs for similar conduct in the past. On the other hand, a logged warning is also reasonable (it just seems to me like issuing a warning on top of the previous warnings, just because those weren't formally logged). I agree that continued conduct after the warning would justify more action, whether at AE or elsewhere, and I'm willing to accept that. Personally, I'd be reluctant to go to ArbCom with only a logged warning having happened, but other editors may feel differently. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:25, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by JzG

Well, this explains the instant WP:ABF here , anyway - Leyo obviously remembers me, though I don't remember them. The best solution to the issue at hand would be to find reliable independent secondary sources that give WP:SIGCOV. Needless to say, if such existed, we would not be here. I personally feel that Leyo has crossed the line from documenting the subject to advocating for them. As a speaker of three languages and resident in CH, I guess maybe Leyo is not aware of how aggressive their statements sound? Guy (help! - typo?) 18:42, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Gtoffoletto

I saw someone mention AE in the AfD discussion and imagined something like this must be happening... Leyo has been obviously following the developments of many of the pages currently being edited by KoA and others. Definitely not hounding. Just following the topic. There has been a lot of edit warring involved on those pages such as the current attempt at deleting the Pesticide Action Network page while removing most of its basic and non controversial content without any consideration. The same is being done to other NGO pages such as Environmental Working Group where editors (despite overwhelming lack of consensus) are attempting to remove any basic addition from the page forcing the community to discuss trivial topics for months. This is the second attempt by the same editor at removing Leyo from the conversation in the last few months. Especially since Leyo is clearly not participating in the discussions as an admin, this seems flimsy at best. I think WP:CPP is a relevant essay here. We are collectively wasting a lot of time trying to maintain the encyclopaedia, but I'll let others decide (Caveat Emptor: User talk:Gtoffoletto#July 2023). {{u|Gtoffoletto}}   21:11, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Darkfrog24

Not involved in the recent conflict. I've interacted with JzG and Trypto before but I don't remember when or where off the top of my head. First diff: Leyo repeats someone's userpage self-description and claims someone was edit warring. Second: Snippy but not exactly casting aspersions. Third: "Please read the comments and course-correct as necessary." I don't see anything wrong. Other: "Your actions here remind me of " is relatively mild phrasing.

I don't think any of these are aspersions or even unWP:CIVIL. Manners-wise, I don't see Leyo doing anything that's even unusual in the diffs offered in the complaint. I mean, I've had someone literally call my contribs feces and it didn't trigger WP:CIVIL (not his exact words).

The issue that Leyo is following KOA around is more concerning and seems to have more meat on it, given that KOA has explicitly asked them for space and that there was at least one confirmed improper act on Leyo's part. If someone's asked you to leave them alone, it is usually best to respect their wishes whenever reasonably practical. I've done it, and it wasn't even an inconvenience. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:34, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Lightoil

I think that WP:AE is the wrong place for this complaint against Leyo. I suggest instead filing an ARBCOM case request to settle this issue once and for all as Leyo is an admin. The reason being AE cannot remove admin status. Lightoil (talk) 16:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Leyo

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• The latest diffs are not great, but I'm not sure how much they really move the needle, especially if we accept that Leyo found the AfD via watchlist rather than via hounding. At this point my instinct would be to do what was suggested in the last AE: give a logged warning to avoid battleground behavior and focus on content rather than contributors. I'm not sure an IBAN would really be effective (per above, this doesn't seem to be a KoA-specific problem), and I don't think we've reached the point yet where a topic ban would be proportionate. That said, the elephant in the room here is that we're talking about a sysop, and there's arguably a stronger case to be made that this behavior falls afoul of WP:ADMINCOND. Whether or not it's time to go to WP:ARC is above my pay grade, but every instance of poor behavior increases the chances that this'll need to be resolved there. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 04:08, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• I would be support a logged warning. If there's an appetite, we could try and craft some sort of anti-bludgeoning restriction like a limit on the number of comments they can make in a thread. There is an issue with the way Leyo has approached other editors in disputes. Disputes are a fact of life, especially in a contentious topic (hence the name), but editors can and should dispute content on its merits and not based on who they're arguing with. We can't prove or disprove that Leyo found the AfD via his watchlist but he has shown that he had an interest in the subject before the AfD. That doesn't leave us a lot. Broader questions of whether this conduct is becoming an admin cannot be answered at this board. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:13, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Tryptofish I hear you, but I don't think it's because Leyo is an admin. I'm struggling to think of a sanction we could impose that is within AE's jurisdiction, and is justified and proportionate, and would be effective. If what it comes down to is that people don't think Leyo is fit to be an admin (and I'm not offering an opinion on that), then this needs to go to ArbCom. We could block Leyo, but a short block would be purely punitive and a long one would likely be overturned on appeal as disproportionate; we could impose an interaction ban but I'm not entirely sure a sitewide IBAN is not ultra vires; we could impose a topic ban but that would also arguably be disproportionate and would have no effect outside the relevant topic. If you want "more", you might be better asking ArbCom. I think, to be blunt, your choices are accept the logged warning and use that as evidence if Leyo continues the battleground mentality, or we close this and refer it to ArbCom. Is there a third option I'm not seeing? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:14, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  I've pblocked Leyo from the AfD for a week. Hopefully it will be closed by then. I'm not convinced an interaction ban would get to heart of the matter but we're not at the point of a topic ban yet in my opinion. I'm still inclined towards an extremely strong logged warning about battleground mentality and commenting on contributors vs content but I'm open to other opinions. I'd love to hear from more uninvolved admins. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:38, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

• The AfD comments are more concerning because they refer to editor conduct instead of the merits of the article's adhering to notability requirements. Therefore, I support a logged warning that discussions about editor conduct should not take place on article talk pages or AfD discussions. I think Leyo's "royal we" request was a bad idea, but I do not consider it hounding or concerning behaviour. I strongly recommend that Leyo and KoA not comment on each other's threads in any discussions as there is clearly a concern between these two editors' interactions towards each other. While questions about admin conduct cannot be answered at this board, I think they can be commented on and used for a case request at ARBCOM. In my opinion, while Leyo's conduct is concerning it does not rise to a level of desysop and I do not think it needs to be taken to ARBCOM at this time. I do strongly recommend that Leyo pursue other topics on Misplaced Pages as there are over 6 million articles on the site and there must be other areas of interest for that user. Z1720 (talk) 21:32, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• I'll note that I closed the AfD in question, and noted the problematic behavior there. I don't think that makes me involved, as that is an administrative action, but if any uninvolved admin objects and says it does, I will withdraw my comment and move it above. That said, we now have a case where Leyo was already chastised by the community for an unwarranted and involved block of KoA () and cautioned at a prior AE thread, and then here has been blocked for interactions which were at least in part with them. I think it's about time to refer this to ArbCom for a review of admin conduct. Seraphimblade 04:15, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
• I agree with Seraphimblade: time for ArbCom. Bishonen | tålk 07:51, 14 October 2023 (UTC).

Cukrakalnis

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Cukrakalnis

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Marcelus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 09:46, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Cukrakalnis (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:CT/EE

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. – removal of Lithuanian Territorial Defense Force from the category "Lithuanian collaboration with Nazi Germany"
2. – same for Święciany massacre committed by Lithuanian police in German service
3. ]- same for Lithuanian TDA Battalion
4. – same for Category: Lithuanian Auxiliary Police; Essentially, C rebuilt the category tree so that most Lithuanian units collaborating with Nazi Germany are not directly in Category:Lithuanian collaboration with Nazi Germany but in Category:Generalbezirk Litauen, which is the name of the occupying German administrative unit.
5. , series of edits in which C removed any information about LTDF collaboration with Nazi Germany, notice the change of text from “LTDF was subordinate to the authorities of Nazi Germany” to “LTDF was disbanded for being insubordinate to the authorities of Nazi Germany” (), while both are true, one shouldn’t replace the other.
6. in this edit C also removed the attribution of the statement that 983 LTDF soldiers were sent to the Oldenburg concentration camp to the historian Arūnas Bubnys, although this information only appears in his older works (it does not appear in more recent works), and is not repeated by any other researcher of LTDF history. In general, the existence of the Oldenburg camp is questionable. In general, I noticed that much of this edition is a verbatim copy of a machine translation of Bubnys article () which I reported to WP:CPN (from words "On 23-24 November 1943" to "with military units assigned to them").
7. - removal of Category:Lithuanian collaborators with Nazi Germany from article on LTDF commander Povilas Plechavičius
8. - removal of link to article on the unit's collaboration with the Germans
9. – Cukrakalnis introduced a change in which he stated that Yad Vashem claims that “the Lithuanian Provisional Government 'did not encourage brutal actions' against Jews and that only high-ranking Communist officials and members of the NKVD were supposed to be punished by death”. In fact, this was a misrepresentation (combining the description of LAF and PG activities) of the words of Lithuanian historian Vygantas Vareikis, published in a work by Yad Vashem.
10. , removal of information of 259th Lithuanian Schutzmannschaft Battalion allegiance to Nazi Germany
11. , same for 258th
12. , same for 256th
13. , same for 10th
14. : trying to talk to C about these changes is very difficult. In this conversation I asked for the reinstatement of allegaince to Nazi Germany in the infoboxes of Lithuanian Schutzmannschaft Battalions quoting the source. C replied "fixed" pointing to his edit where he added the parameter "branch = Ordnungspolizei" (). When I pointed out that I was advocating addition of the parameter "allegiance = Nazi Germany", he replied: "It was not part of the Wehrmacht, so adding Ordnungspolizei is more accurate", completely ignoring the thing I asked for. Typical example of WP:NOTGETTINGIT.
15. : C makes also WP:PERSONAL attacks against me. For example: “you just want to demonize it as 'collaborationist'", "Your shameful attempts, shameful behaviour on your part”, “your incessant questioning of the numbers provided by one of the foremost Lithuanian experts on the matter, Arūnas Bubnys, whose given information you even accused as 'fringe' in this edit, which is absolutely shameful behaviour on your part” show lack of ability to remain level-headed in this topic.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. , C was blocked in the past, and promised to “cease engaging in ethno-nationalist and homophobic provocations on Misplaced Pages” and dedicate himself to “purely to editing military and neutral history”.

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

• Participated in process about the area of conflict (such as a request or appeal at AE, AN or an Arbitration Committee process page), on 15:57, 28 March 2023.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

In my opinion edits undertaken by Cukrakalnis, are incompatible with the spirit of Misplaced Pages and calculated to hide inconvenient historical facts that he does not favor. And due to the fact that I am one of the few editors who monitors this area, I am concerned that they may go unnoticed. I have had disputes with C in the past on various topics, and while I have not always found his edits to be the best, I consider his edits on the topic of collaboration with Nazi Germany to be particularly alarming, as the misrepresentations made on this topic is in my opinion especially harmful. Still, I think C is capable of giving a lot in other areas.

Apologies, that's my mistake I understood that I had to say what remedy to put on Cukrakalnis, I am deleting this from "Sanction or remedy to be enforced", just to be clear: he does not have this TBan now Marcelus (talk) 20:51, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

C fails to mention that he himself made Category:Generalbezirk Litauen subset of Category:Lithuanian collaboration with Nazi Germany (15:46, 20 March 2023). He did so day after the creation of Category:Massacres in Lithuania during World War II (20:54, 19 March 2023‎) and three minutes before making changes in categories of Święciany massacre (15:49, 20 March 2023). Thus, the whole explanation that he made them "upon seeing that the article already had Category:Generalbezirk Litauen, which was the subset of Category:Lithuanian collaboration with Nazi Germany" sounds insincere, since he himself, after all, created such a category structure 3 minutes earlier.

Moreover, he did not take an analogous step with respect to other German occupation administrative units. Besides, just putting this category there makes no sense: it suggests that Generalbezirk Litauen itself was part of the Lithuanian collaboration. When I challenged this move C stated: "The Lithuanian Auxiliary Police, Lithuanian Security Police, etc., were subordinated to Generalbezirk Litauen. The Generalbezirk itself is clearly part of Lithuanian collaboration." (), which makes no sense in the regard of WP:PARENTCAT and is also factually incorrect, but that's other matter.

Also untrue, is what C says, that "allegiance tag is supposed to be used if the unit is part of the armed forces of a sovereign country", because Template:Infobox military unit clearly says something opposite: "allegiance - optional - Used to indicate the allegiance of units which are not part of the regular armed forces of a sovereign state".

It is also not true that I expect a ban for C, I consider him a difficult to cooperate with but useful editor, just in my opinion he is unable to remain objective on the topic of Lithuanian collaboration with Nazi Germany, so I think he should withdraw from editing in this space. I apologize for the length of the comment.Marcelus (talk) 21:50, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

I am surprised to read @Elinruby's comments. It seems that she has not familiarised herself with the diffs. I do not understand the accusation of WP:IDHT and also the whole lecture about collaboration seems unnecessary. This is not a discussion about content, but about C's conduct. I am also not comfortable being called a "blockhead".Marcelus (talk) 17:39, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Cukrakalnis

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Cukrakalnis

Yes, I am going through your edits persistently because I don't trust you as an editor. --Marcelus (talk) 21:30, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Marcelus already wrongly reported me a year ago - on 8 July 2022. Marcelus' WP:GRUDGE has not ceased over the past two years. Last year, to stop any problems caused by the problematic interactions with Marcelus, I asked for an IBAN, which was not granted. Almost a full year later, other users already noticed that the interpersonal dynamic is problematic: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1124#Cukrakalnis and Marcelus' history of incivility/bickering towards each other (submitted by a user now renamed User:Prodraxis). Just a month before this, User:Ostalgia said I think the sanction applied by Tamzin is proportional to the infraction, and just want to point out that this is the nth case involving Marcelus and Cukrakalnis. Given the huge overlap between Lithuanian and Polish history, and the evident bad blood between them, perhaps a 2-way IBAN could help prevent further disruption.. Here we go again, another case by Marcelus against me.

I see nothing wrong in me following Misplaced Pages's rules and removing WP:PARENTCATs in articles where they were superfluous. Category:Generalbezirk Litauen is already a subset of Category:Lithuanian collaboration with Nazi Germany. Thus, it follows that I should remove the parent cat in favour of the more specific category. It is absolutely unfair to characterize me as trying to deny Lithuanian collaboration with Nazi Germany, because I myself created Category:Lithuanian Security Police officers which I clearly tagged Category:Lithuanian collaborators with Nazi Germany. Furthermore, this was just a part of my broader effort to help in the work on collaboration with the Axis Powers in World War II - I was cleaning up the category tree to make sure that categories would be as precise as possible and to remove cases where there were superfluous parent categories. Here are a few cases out of the many many edits that I did: , , , etc. Please note: I received a barnstar User:Cukrakalnis#For intelligent discussion and content creation in the area of Collaboration with the Axis Powers, so clearly my contributions are according to Misplaced Pages's rules and it is only Marcelus that mistakenly finds fault where there is none.

The cases that Marcelus tries to use as proof against me only show that I was following Misplaced Pages's rules. E.g. with Święciany massacre - I had created the Category:Massacres in Lithuania during World War II and that is why I had to remove a few categories that were the parent cat of the newly-created one I had just created. Upon seeing that the article already had Category:Generalbezirk Litauen, which was the subset of Category:Lithuanian collaboration with Nazi Germany, why would it make sense to keep a superfluous category ? It doesn't, so that's why I removed it. Regarding the Nazi Germany thing in the allegiance of those battalions - Marcelus omits that the allegiance tag is supposed to be used if the unit is part of the armed forces of a sovereign country. Instead, the units we were dealing with were all auxiliary police units, thus not part of the Wehrmacht - Nazi Germany's armed forces. Overall, Marcelus just wants to ban me because we disagree.

Either way, Marcelus' actions and report go directly against the spirit of the conditions on which his block was lifted not even 2 weeks before today (Marcelus' block log here). Marcelus went against the strong recommendations of administrators like User:Z1720: I strongly recommend that Marcelus stay away from the articles that caused the controversies, at least for a couple of weeks or months. and even his assigned mentor User:Piotrus: try to stay away from any controversies in the Polish-Lithuanian topics, or any controversies in general, as it is too easy to make a bad edit in such articles . Did Marcelus listen? No! Marcelus plunged back into the controversial topics that got him banned in the first place and even tries to get me banned instead (seemingly his ultimate goal, considering his long-term behaviour of the past few years).

Apologies for the infrequent editing the past few days (which will continue into the future), because I am busy with matters in my life.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 19:41, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by 137.22.90.18

Searching on WP:EDR, WP:AEL and in the AE archives doesn't give any topic ban for Cukrakalnis. While I'm going to assume that there is one, could you provide a diff of the sanction for other users to review Marcelus? Otherwise, if there isn't a link to an alleged TBAN, I think that this could still be handled at AE (Eastern Europe is a contentious topic), but discussing admins should note the lack of evidence for the TBAN. The linked unblock discussion also does not appear to be specifically about the alleged TBAN topic. 137.22.90.18 (talk) 21:56, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Darkfrog24

Hi. Not involved in the conflict, never met these editors before. Just checking the diffs: 1) Yes, this user removed the category "Lithuanian collaboration with Nazi Germany." 2) Added cat "Massacres in Lithuania during World War II" in a context that does involve Lithuanian collaboration with Nazi Germany. To save space, I'll say that I checked every diff, and I believe any reasonable person would conclude that all of them are indeed related to Lithuanian collaboration with Nazi Germany in some way. Some are categoires, some are content, one is a talk page post, and some are change descriptions, but every diff is related to that concept. So even if this topic ban has a carve-out that allows C to change article categories, say, there would still be enough here to be worth considering. The issue is, as anon137 says, whether there is a topic ban in force. Could it have been one set years ago that's since expired? Has C's username changed since it was placed?

I do not believe that the diff on line 15 rises to the point of a personal attack. Darkfrog24 (talk) 15:26, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Plugging Cukrakalnis into the "search for sanctions" bar produces no results. Using Cukrakalnis as a term to search the page history shows Cukrakalnis commenting on other cases. Marcelus and Cukrakalnis have interacted here before: Darkfrog24 (talk) 15:40, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I searched the archives of C's talk page for notices of arb discussions concerning him and only found this: Arbitration case about Pahonia But it seems C used to be called "Itzhak Rosenberg." Also no logged sanctions under that name: Darkfrog24 (talk) 15:45, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Now that Marcellus has cleared up the confusion... My conclusion is that the diffs above show C moving articles away from "Here's how the Lithuanians collaborated with the Nazis" and closer to "The Lithuanians did not collaborate with the Nazis." At the time, I figured C was a Lithuanian who wanted to distance that country from the Nazis because C recognizes Nazis as evil. I get the impression that Marcellus believes the articles were more accurate before C changed them. I did not check the posted sources to see which of these positions is more verifiable because that's not supposed to matter. If there's a policy here, it's WP:VERIFIABILITY, but I don't know if anyone violated it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:15, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

I was following Wikipolicy on WP:PARENTCATs: 'an article should be categorised under the most specific branch in the category tree possible, without duplication in parent categories above it'. Category:Generalbezirk Litauen is already a subset of Category:Lithuanian collaboration with Nazi Germany. It is absolutely unfair to characterize me as trying to deny Lithuanian collaboration with Nazi Germany, because I myself created Category:Lithuanian Security Police officers which I clearly tagged Category:Lithuanian collaborators with Nazi Germany. Clearly, if I had been trying to distort history into claiming that no Lithuanian collaboration with Nazi Germany took place, I would not have done that. But I was never denying any historical facts and this is just the latest of Marcelus' reports against me. See my statement for the bigger picture of this situation. Cukrakalnis (talk) 19:51, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Piotrus

Sigh. I'd offer mediation again but I don't think I have the time, will, or sufficient neutrality for it to work (since I am Polish as well). Ping User:Elinruby for their thoughts (sorry for dragging you into this... but hey, there is a tiny chance they may want to offer to mediate more themselves - they have done so recently more than me at Talk:Lithuanian_Territorial_Defense_Force). Other than that, I am at a loss whether edits by those two users are problematic enough to warrant a topic or interaction ban (newsflash: I don't like sanctioning folks if there is a chance to work things out peacefully per WP:HERE). Is the content improving? If so, then this is more smoke then flame. But are both parties improving things equally? This would require a more in-depth review than we seem to want to do, leaving us with the choice of doing nothing, or doing something, both of which could .be wrong. If nothing jumps out, well, there's time-sanctioned concept of more WP:ROPE I guess. PS. Regarding content improvement, I will note that there is a copyvio issue that came to my attention recently. See here for my analysis. How widespread is the problem I have no idea. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:15, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Elinruby

I just suggested to Marcelus last night a search for other sources not in either Polish or Lithuanian, and proposed some definitions of collaboration, which is not as obvious as it apparently seems to some. It is largely unsourced OR overall in the many many European WW2 articles, from what I have seen.

Marcelus, if you were polishing diffs while I was explaining Stanley Hoffman vs Bertram Gordon vs Fabrice Grenard ... dude, miss me with the time-wasting stuff next time you've already decided to do something like this. I don't need help finding stuff to do, at all, I despise drama, and this was not a good idea. You should withdraw this complaint if they let you.

General comments

• It is just not that simple in the case of the LDF, and "collaborationism" is wrong even if somebody does keep adding it where it doesn't belong, all over ww2. LDF fighters were not French, or a government, and if they were recruited at gunpoint they probably didn't sign up for ideological reasons or to kill Jews. Rene Bousquet and the Charlemagne Regiment were collaborationists, ok? Lots on the LDf talk page about this
• consider a boomerang for IDHT
• I haven't looked yet at the police unit's page. If this unit, not just other units like it, indeed guarded a concentration camp, good enough for me, Marcelus can call them Nazis all he wants as far as I am concerned. But fyi the Nuremberg tribunal decided not to try such soldiers unless evidence existed that they personally had done more wrong than just belong to a unit
• A better and more recent taxonomy than the three I know (Sorbonne explainer)and/or other sources possibly not dreamt of in their philosophy might maybe have avoided all this. I would like to know if Marcelus even looked those links at all. (I forgot Julian Jackson at the time btw)
• I think they are both too invested in this one unit that the Germans thought they had for a couple of months.
• I suggest Marcelus be required to cite Lithuanian history texts, and Cukrakalnis Polish. There seems to be a divergence in the history taught in those two countries. Something fundamental like who did the killing exactly. The idea needs work but might help. Topic ban optional
• Both very good editors if they can just get over WW2 and worry about the next batch of fascists
• I gave *each* of these blockheads a barnstar for teamwork (with personalized wording) and they each deserved them for some really great work on the collaboration article. I know it's hard to believe that right now
• The collaboration category tree was a huge mess the last time I looked, mostly about enterprise software. I did indeed discuss this with Cukrakalnis. The artcle's page moves didn't help and the Collaborators category is still about 20-30% people found not guilty of collaboration. Edits there may be legit, would need to look and I can't just this second
• if there really is a big copyvio, I can't defend that, and the explanation better be really really good. I need to be away for several hours and will check for any questions when I'm back

TL;DR probably worth the effort but man...totally counterproductive dramah...Elinruby (talk) 00:08, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

I announced yesterday that I would have limited availability for a couple of days. I have a few minutes now, but I am out of words and speechless besides.

Marcelus' mentor asked me to look at this dispute and Marcelus brought it here instead, while I was trying to explain to him that there are many historiographies. Cukrakalnis on the other hand responded to my effort to mediate and signed on to one of my proposals to resolve this particular manifestation of clashing dogmas. The Collaboration parent category and article is a ridiculous mess guarded by people who like that. I didn't know that Cukrakalnis was working on the category, he knew what happened to me and good for him for trying anyway.

@Piotrus: if he can't hear me I can't help, sorry. But I will say as an aside that "blockhead" is a very fine word for people intent on validating every negative stereotype out there of the official Polish historiography.

@Marcelus: I looked at your diffs. Too bad you didn't look at my links. I gave you that barnstar because I was impressed that you didn't do this stuff at Collaboration with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. I thought you had grown since your blood feud over a coat of arms. I see now that I was wrong about that, and the lack of strife was simply that you and Cukrakalnis were working in different sections of the article. If that is the way forward here, then you are with this filing asking AE to impose your worldview on Lithuania, and should get back into your own lane. While I have with my eyes open gotten sanctioned for defending you in the past when you were right, I refuse to do so again here, where you are extremely wrong.

Without reference to the details of whether getting gang-pressed constitutes collaboration, or whether that is in fact what happened, I hereby repudiate your insistence that there is a single correct view of World War II. If this were NPOVN I would tell you that we explain controversy; we don't censor everything but a single historiography deemed correct. And as an aside, "blockhead" is a very fine word for people who get the people trying to accommodate them into trouble and I am not the only editor you have done that to. Sorry, Piotrus. I really did try.

To whoever is clerking, I apologize for not asking for more words but I don't know how soon I will be able to get back online. Probably not before tomorrow at the soonest. Feel free to do whatever seems best. Elinruby (talk) 20:20, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Cukrakalnis

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• @Marcelus: You don't specify which contentious topic this relates to (I'm assuming Eastern Europe) and it's not obvious that Cukrakalnis is aware of the restrictions. Can you show that they are aware? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:26, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  I see an attempted informing in the filter logs, but it looks like the edit was never saved after the “are you sure you want to notify this user?” message was displayed. Courcelles (talk) 15:44, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you for the diff, Marcelus. As far as I'm concerned, that clearly demonstrates that Cukrakalnis is aware of the contentious topic procedure and this request can proceed as such. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:51, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The Great Mule of Eupatoria

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning The Great Mule of Eupatoria

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

BilledMammal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 11:30, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 4#ARBPIA General Sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

At October 2023 Gaza–Israel conflict

1. 9:43, 8 October 2023 (Reverted this edit)
2. 11:26, 8 October 2023 (Reverted this edit)
3. 04:46, 9 October 2023
4. 06:16, 9 October 2023 (Partial reinstatement of this edit)
5. 12:39, 9 October 2023 (Reverted this edit)
6. 12:59, 9 October 2023 (Partial revert of this edit)
7. 02:42, 10 October 2023 (Partial revert of this edit)

At Jabalia camp market airstrike

1. 16:32, 9 October 2023 (Partial revert of this edit and full revert of this edit)
2. 17:01, 9 October 2023

Multiple violations of both WP:1RR and WP:3RR. On the 8th, I notified them of contentious topics being applied to this area and informed them of the WP:1RR limit, asking them to be more careful in the future. On the 9th, I asked them to self-revert after breaching both 1RR and 3RR; they reverted some, but not all, of what they could self-revert in this edit. See this related article talk page discussion.

Following this, they made an additional revert on October 2023 Gaza–Israel conflict and two reverts on Jabalia camp market airstrike; see also the discussion on their talk page about the second revert.

There may have been additional reverts that I missed.

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

• Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 12:18, 8 October 2023 (see the system log linked to above).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

While this report has been open The Great Mule of Eupatoria has made an additional 1RR violation.

At Operation Al-Aqsa Flood:

1. 08:14, 13 October 2023 (Remove "Islamic terrorism" and "mass murder" from infobox)
2. 02:45, 14 October 2023 (Remove "massacre" and "Islamic terrorism" from infobox)

03:08, 14 October 2023

Following this updated report they also switched the infobox from "civilian attack" to "military attack", but I'm out of diffs so I won't link that. 03:16, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Can I have an additional ten diffs, to present additional 1RR violations at October 2023 Gaza–Israel conflict? I won't need that many to present these violations, but it will save me from needing to ask again if more happen. 10:44, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

11:30, 10 October 2023

Discussion concerning The Great Mule of Eupatoria

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by The Great Mule of Eupatoria

Today’s wasn’t a revert as far as I know, but instead a justified removal of a topic that already violated Misplaced Pages policy and it was eventually fully removed.

I did mention in all of today’s edits that were reverted that I will not revert reverted edits (shown in the discussion page). Being informed on the “revert edit limit” I did try to go back and undo my own reverts, including one which messed up the page. I didn’t edit the page much today, since I was preoccupied with illustrating lesser crested, greater crested, and caspian terns (I was also illustrating common terns yesterday). Most of my activities today were in the talk page or rewords, as for the reverts of the market massacres, they were different page than the war conflict page so I don’t believe it falls under edit warring as I did not revert the reverted edits. Lots of “reverts” in that last paragraph so slay.

• That is SO true, I did try to manually revert my edits after it wrecked the page yesterday, but it is apparent that any of my engagement with the “edit warring” on the Israel-Gaza war page is from yesterday (mostly before I was told about the number of reverts limit), today saw one partial revert on the main page (when it got re added and I did not revert it since I was more aware of the edit war policy and how many reverts I was allowed) and it wasn’t a true edit war, it was the Girlbossing of a statement that had nothing to do with the war so I was fully justified in removing itThe Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 12:53, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Selfstudier

Hum, overenthusiastic editing in a very active article (they are not the only one). I believe a warning is the usual thing for a newish editor and first offense. Should lay off the slang, most won't even know what it means, me included. Selfstudier (talk) 17:53, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Are you talking about the “slay Girlboss queen?” That’s just something I say all the time, it doesn’t signify any opinion or viewpoint. I also mention it in edit summaries for birds (for example “I did not slay” when I put the incorrect file for the species) The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 03:17, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning The Great Mule of Eupatoria

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• @The Great Mule of Eupatoria: The definition of revert is much broader than just pressing the undo button. From Edit warring: The term "revert" is defined as any edit (or administrative action) that reverses or undoes the actions of other editors, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material, and whether performed using undo, rollback, or done so completely manually. A series of consecutively saved reverting edits by one user, with no intervening edits by another user, counts as one revert. --In actu (Guerillero) 12:49, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
• Relatively inexperienced editor only recently alerted to the CTOP procedures, not an edit war per se, and on a busy article about a fast-moving event. I'm not seeing the need for draconian sanctions. I could live with a short-term page ban/block but if The Great Mule of Eupatoria were to voluntarily avoid the article and stick to the talk page for 24 hours I'd be happy to close this without action as long as there aren't deeper concerns about their editing. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:50, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

  @HJ Mitchell: The use of so slay and Girlbossing make me doubt that The Great Mule of Eupatoria is acting with good faith here. The first seemed to be a language barrier. The second, less so. --Guerillero 17:40, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

  Their statement that they were fully justified, and that it wasn't a true edit war leads me to believe they may not fully understand the policies around 1rr and edit warring. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:50, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Guerillero, @ScottishFinnishRadish: the slang perhaps suggests they don't take this very seriously but not everyone takes it as seriously as those of us who have put years into Misplaced Pages. They're not a highly experienced editor who knows the rules inside out. But I won't object if either of you want to take action. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 09:55, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Arminden

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Arminden

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Supreme Deliciousness (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:34, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Arminden (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Index/Palestine-Israel articles

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 20:08, 10 October 2023, calls another user "criminal" and "moron" and tells him to "Drop dead"
2. 20:06, 10 October 2023, calls me an "idiot"

These two edits, besides the name calling and death threat also violates the 1 revert rule.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. 15:17, 1 July 2020 " warned to temper their language, focus on content, and generally, conduct themselves with utmost moderation when it comes to this (ARBPIA) topic area. Just because this is a more informal warning does not mean that, next time, sanctions won't be imposed."
2. 21:33, 21 May 2015 Edit warring

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Was notified at his talkpage:

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified

Discussion concerning Arminden

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

There is ongoing discussion on two talk pages about the broader question of use of language ("terrorist" vs "militant", application of MOS:TERRORIST etc). The discussions have been difficult and not always as civil as would be ideal. This obviously represents a significant escalation in the incivility of the whole thing. --AntiDionysius (talk) 20:47, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Would it be appropriate to revert the page to before the edits in question? It seems inappropriate to let them stand, but I'm also aware that even the current text of the article is contentious, and I do have an opinion here. AntiDionysius (talk) 20:51, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

@ScottishFinnishRadish, oh yes, you're right. A different user restored substantially the same content, which presents the same problem of bypassing ongoing discussion, but I suppose that may be a separate matter for dispute resolution or something. AntiDionysius (talk) 21:17, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Arminden

Comment by Boing!

This is clearly an emotional response to the horrendous events in Israel, and I can understand deeply-felt and angry reactions from anyone remotely close to what's happened. A 48h block seems appropriate to deal with the immediate need for prevention. And I'm disappointed to see people calling for stronger sanctions without offering evidence of any longer-term issue. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:23, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Iskandar323

Regardless of the emotions circulating at this time, telling other editors to "Drop dead" is not acceptable, and I am extremely surprised to see such comments coming from Arminden, who has always come across as an exceptionally level-headed editor. However, no one is compelled to edit Misplaced Pages while in an emotional state, and those that are in such a state that they cannot edit without lashing out are better off recusing themselves temporarily from it, since such comments are clearly not fit for the project. @HJ_Mitchell: I would say the same principles apply in all contexts, regardless of external events and speculations on emotions. Isn't the room for manoeuvre facilitated in all cases by admission that perspective was lost? Iskandar323 (talk) 08:02, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Arminden

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Looks like HJ Mitchell beat me to the block. I think with the diffs above, as well as this, there's some evidence that they may not be able to maintain NPOV and civility in this topic at this time. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:46, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

  48 hour block looks good, but this language? Needs a few months topic ban, minimum. Courcelles (talk) 20:51, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

  I don't want to go nuclear too quickly. Imagine American editors editing in the days after 9/11 if Misplaced Pages was more mature then. The people best placed to write the articles are also the ones most emotionally involved. If they recognise that they lost perspective, we have room to manoeuvre; if they double down then we remove them from the topic area. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:58, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

  AntiDionysius, it looks like they've already been reverted. Am I missing something? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:11, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

• I blocked for 48 hours per ANI. Is further action necessary? Their previous trip to AE was over three years ago so I could believe that this was a one-off loss of perspective on an emotive subject and, if they agree to put their emotions aside, maybe it's not. But if they can't edit neutrally and won't moderate themselves, a ban of some form is necessary. Does anyone want to present evidence of a (recentish) pattern of poor conduct that would merit (for example) a topic ban? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:49, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

BilledMammal

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning BilledMammal

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Brandmeister (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 10:05, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

BilledMammal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Armenia-Azerbaijan 3#Proposed enforcement

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

BilledMammal appears to still show unhelpful behavior by trying to override third-party opinion and without opening a threaded discussion. Earlier they were blocked once and received at least three warnings.

1. Reverts a six-day stable version by repeating old argument that "Dixon was hired by Azerbaijan", even though at Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Luis Moreno Ocampo an uninvolved user stated: Dixon's statements are not invalidated by his connection to the Azerbaijan government. Include his statements and inform readers that he was hired to write a rejection of Ocampo's report.
2. Reverts again on the same day, claiming "no consensus"
3. Writes at the BLP discussion after the revert and nine days after the uninvolved opinion, insisting on their version

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. Blocked on 25 October 2021 for 48 hours due to "abuse of process"

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

May 2023 edit-warring warning

November 2022 edit-warring warning

January 2022 warning

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Rlendog, Vanamonde93, I'm seeing a WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT disruption of dispute resolution process here, where an uninvolved opinion has been a central pillar. With that in mind, attempts to seek further dispute resolution become frustrating and time-consuming. Brandmeister 18:05, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning BilledMammal

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by BilledMammal

To provide the full edit summaries for the first and second diffs:

1. WP:UNDUE; Dixon was hired by Azerbaijan, and his report doesn't appear to have received any media attention of note.
2. No consensus at that discussion to include. I agree that including it isn't libel, but that doesn't make it WP:DUE. The only reliable and independent source that I could even find mentioning Dixon in this context was a CNN article, which only discusses the preliminary opinion letter and not the report. It also focuses on the allegations, and is clear that Azerbiajan hired Dixon.

Next, I'm not sure why the warnings are relevant, particularly the 2022 ones, but since they are included I feel I should explain them:

1. January 2022 I was warned about my comment here, for saying I suspect that English is not their first language; it may be beneficial for them to edit on their native language Misplaced Pages before appealing here, as the language barrier may be why they have struggled to gain competence.
2. November 2022 I was warned about reverting changes that other people made to my talk page contribution.
3. May 2023 was a dispute about whether other editors could add options to a multi-option RfC. There was an option I believed should be considered; JFD disagreed.

As for the actual topic of this report, this is a content issue; there isn't a consensus at BLPN to include it.

This is perhaps getting a little too far into content for AE, but I believe that it shouldn't be included because it is WP:UNDUE, and because it is possibly a BLP violation. The former is because it has received almost no coverage in reliable and independent sources. The latter because we deem it a "controversy", but reliable and independent sources have not done so. Further, we give weight to the claim that he left out information that undermined his conclusions, despite no reliable and independent source doing so.

It also fails to mention that the report was commissioned by Azerbaijan, even though the comment from the uninvolved editor that Brandmeister justifies their edit with says Include his statements and inform readers that he was hired to write a rejection of Ocampo's report.

This ANI discussion from last week may also be relevant, as in it I accused Brandmeister of misrepresenting three sources in this topic area. 10:42, 13 October 2023

@Grandmaster: In the talk page discussion on adding that report three of the five participating editors disagreed with doing so. It's another content issue, not worth bringing to AE. 13:09, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved editor Bon courage

Meh. While the idea of 'a six-day stable version ' of an article is an intriguing one, this just looks like robust-ish editing from BilledMammal very similar to the kind that the complainant has been doing on the same page. So: a content dispute in an area where consensus is indeed unclear, with nothing rising (yet) to the level of disruption where admins need to step in. Both editors would be advised to dial things back and try for a wider consensus before resuming the back-and-forth reverting to the point where it does become a problem, in my humble view. Bon courage (talk) 11:30, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Grandmaster

I only recently started editing the article in question, but immediately noticed problematic editing by BilledMammal. In particular, here he completely removed the important finding by the UN mission to Nagorno-Karabakh region, claiming that it was WP:UNDUE. In reality, the finding reported by the Spokesperson for the UN Secretary-General Stéphane Dujarric has a direct relevance to the topic of the article, and the opinion of the number one international organization that actually sent a mission to the conflict location cannot be undue. If there are sources that question the UN finding, we can only present them along with what the UN says, but not remove the important part of the UN report. It looks to me like a tendentious editing by BilledMammal. Grandmaster 13:02, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Kevo327

A report based on diffs related to the BLPN discussion which has no consensus for OP's recent edit, not to mention WP:ONUS - but that didn't stop OP from restoring their edits repeatedly and reverting users . The UN detail edit's discussion that was opened yesterday has no consensus either, in fact, several editors have disagreed to add undue barely present in RS detail to an already undue report that was heavily criticized , by RS. This AE case is subpar and perhaps raises concerns about OP's competence and witch hunting opposing them editors, they were recently warned by @El C: for opening another content dispute AE case . - Kevo (talk) 13:37, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by HistoryofIran

I've been keeping a watchful eye on Flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians and its talk page. This looks an attempt to get rid of a opposing editor. An investigation should made regarding Brandmeister's edits and conducts, who seems to be doing his best to justify and minimize the actions of Azerbaijan against the Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians per the ANI report and his other comments/edits in that thread. Grandmaster, who supports Brandmeister here and in that article has also just filed an SPI against one of the other opposing users, what a coincidence . --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:39, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by KhndzorUtogh

I felt I should make a statement, given that Brandmeister made an AE request against me as well last week. That request, also, was considered to have been over nothing sanctionable, and Brandmeister was given a WP:FORUMSHOP warning because that AE thread was made right after I had made an ANI discussion about Brandmeister. If Brandmeister is already making a new AE report for someone they are disagreeing with so soon after the last one and it is again for conduct that is non-sanctionable, should a WP:BOOMERANG apply to this excessive reporting? --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 21:51, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by DFlhb

Not seeing anything sanctionable in the original request. I also don't see any problems with the diff User:Grandmaster highlighted as problematic editing. However, Grandmaster's comments in the talk page discussion are puzzling, for example stating that notability is the "main criterion" for inclusion in articles, that to remove information is to "censor" it, or that it is original research to discuss a source's relevance on the basis of statements made in other reliable published sources. Not that I'm saying those are sanctionable either, but an experienced editor making those comments is concerning, especially in a CTOP. For the record I've never edited that page, nor, to my knowledge, that topic area. DFlhb (talk) 07:24, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Result concerning BilledMammal

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I am not seeing any sanctionable conduct. This seems like a content disagreement where BilledMammal regards certain facts as being given WP:UNDUE weight, has not come close to violating WP:3RR and has been willing to discuss the edits. Rlendog (talk) 14:55, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

• With respect to the additional comment, I did not see any consensus emerging out of the linked BLP noticeboard discussion. Disagreements on contentious topics often take more than 6 or 9 days to get resolved, and admittedly can be frustrating. Rlendog (talk) 18:55, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

• I also do not see sanctionable conduct here. The line between content and conduct can be blurry in cases like this, but at the moment I'm seeing disagreement in which the opinions of both sides are grounded in policy. The sources being discussed are neither so unquestionably reliable that omitting them is sanctionable conduct, nor so clearly unreliable that promoting them is sanctionable. I suggest all editors concerned be a little less free with the revert button, and invite outside input where opinions on sources and content are evenly divided. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:47, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

  The opinion of uninvolved users at BLPN is helpful, but is not in any way sacrosanct, and any user is free to disagree with it. If you want to build an enforceable consensus on this subject, an RFC is the way to go. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:54, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

  I'm also considering whether a boomerang of some sort is needed. I note that Brandmeister was blocked for a month for behavior in this precise area. This was 10 yeas ago, so it's ancient history; but you'd hope that after such a sanction and a logged warning a week ago a user would be more circumspect. I'm still unsure what an appropriate response would be: a second logged warning feels like too little, an indef CT-wide TBAN (our typical response) perhaps too much. How do other admins feel about a time-limited TBAN from 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh, which seems the most proximal area of conflict? Vanamonde (Talk) 23:27, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

• Thirded: I also don't see sanctionable conduct. The DUE/UNDUE question here is a matter of opinion, where it's not disruptive to edit according to either opinion. For transparency, I was the admin who blocked BM for abuse of process in 2021, as mentioned by the OP. It's the only entry in their block log and I don't see the relevance of it here. There may be a little irony, since the abuse was overuse of AE (IMO),) but not relevance. Bishonen | tålk 16:25, 13 October 2023 (UTC).

  KhndzorUtogh makes a good point. Should there be some form of boomerang? Bishonen | tålk 22:00, 13 October 2023 (UTC).

  Re boomerang: in view of this recent ANI, which earned Brandmeister a logged warning, and their two recent AE reports, I agree with Vanamonde that we don't want to warn them again. A TBAN from the 2023 Azerbaijani offensive might be the thing, but I never much like time-limited bans. It's too easy to merely wait out the ban and then resume the behavior. At least, if time-limited, a TBAN should be pretty long. 10 months? Bishonen | tålk 10:10, 14 October 2023 (UTC).