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Please revert this recent edit, which makes the sentence nonsensical: previously it contrasted Southern (which Truth wasn't) with northern, Dutch (which she was); now it incoherently contrasts black (which she was) with northern, Dutch (which she also was). 50.232.6.4 (talk) 13:22, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

She was not Dutch, she was Black. Additionally, AAVE was (and still is) primarily spoken in the Southern United States. Wikeezy (talk) 21:04, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

She was Dutch-speaking! It literally makes no sense to contrast "stereotypical Black dialect" with ""from New York and grew up speaking Dutch as her first language". Unsurprisingly, your change also makes the sentence a poor summary of the relevant part of the body (which, unlike your version, does not suffer from any confusion), whereas the previous version correctly encapsulated the body discussion of this point. (NB: the previous sentence shows the correct structure of a sentence using "whereas": the two halves have to be in direct contrast or contradiction with each other.) --172.56.33.77 (talk) 02:39, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

I do not want to assume, but I believe you don't really have a firm grasp on the history of race in the United States (at least with Black people). In the context of the antebellum south, "stereotypical Black dialect" absolutely contrasts with "from New York and grew up speaking Dutch as her first language." The majority of all Black people have always been in the South, especially in those times. Even in modernity, a standard New York accent would never be considered AAVE, let alone a person speaking Dutch in New York. I apologize for the grammatical error, as that is entirely my fault, but my correction makes sense considering her background and the racial context of the United States. Wikeezy (talk) 03:02, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

@Wikeezy: Your personal comments are both inappropriate and mistaken, but more importantly they're irrelevant: the problem with your edit has nothing to do with substance, it has to do with basic principles of good writing in English. Consider the sentence "Before the merger, main production took place in Michigan, whereas afterwards, the work was done by hand." This sentence is totally broken because it contrasts (using "whereas") two things that are not in conflict (and indeed not related to each other). You've done the same thing to the sentence in question: before it contrasted typically Southern dialect with from New York, Dutch-speaking -- two things that are in opposition. After your edit, it contrasts typically Black with from New York, Dutch speaking -- but these are not in conflict, indeed Truth was Black and from New York and spoke Dutch as her first language.

The edit by Pinchme123 maybe sort of fixes the problem you created, but at an even higher cost: now we have a long digression in the lead of a biography of an important person about the question of the relationship between Southern and Black dialects of English, something that is utterly irrelevant to her biography, complete with a citation that is not used in the body and has nothing to do with Truth at all! The original status quo was better than either of the two subsequent versions; another good option would be to trim the sentence back so something like "The speech became widely known during the Civil War by the title "Ain't I a Woman?"", optionally with a (brief!) mention that the most widely circulated version of the speech differed considerably from contemporaneous accounts (but without the additional digression into the details of how it differed).

Someone who knows how to craft a decent sentence (EEng?) would be helpful here. 64.26.99.248 (talk) 15:48, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

A typically Black dialect contrasts with Dutch speaking in New York when 90% of people with a Black dialect(AAVE speakers) live in the southern United States, which was the case when Truth was alive. If 90% of the speakers of a dialect live in the south, you can contrast it with people who speak a different dialect in the north (also Truth was Black but didn't speak AAVE, which is common among Black people who are not from areas with high Black populations, i.e the South.) Again, it seems my comments are not mistaken. Wikeezy (talk) 19:14, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

This isn't an article about typical language patterns, it's an article about Sojourner Truth. She was Black and northern and Dutch-speaking, so in her case (which is what the article is about) the contrast makes no sense. Your defense of this bad edit is a sequence of non-sequiturs (just as the edit itself creates an egregious non-sequitur). That they are true non-sequiturs is better than the alternative, for sure -- but they don't address the problems with the edit. This is again not surprising given your editing history, but it is a shame you don't think Sojourner Truth matters enough for it to be worthwhile to write her biography here well. 64.26.99.248 (talk) 16:53, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

The portions of the article I edited detail someone rewriting her speech pattern. Again, she was Black but she did not speak AAVE. There is a difference. Wikeezy (talk) 00:16, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

 Note: To alleviate this tension, I've tried adding an explanatory clause to the sentence along with a citation, to address some of the concerns raised in this section. I'm marking this as responded-to. -- Pinchme123 (talk) 05:34, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

"New York Dutch heritage"

User:Aearthrise stop edit warring and make your case for inclusion here. User:Djflem, User:Harsimaja, tagging you as others who have reverted Aearthrise's edit. ITBF (talk) 01:00, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Edit warring? This is just your ignorant response to my reverting your nonsense racial logic, ITBF.

Your whole argument is that Sojourner Truth is only "African" because she's black, and has no further cultural connotations. This is an idiotic argument, especially when we already have so much evidence of Truth's background. Indeed ITBF is doing the same as earlier writers who tried to portray her as a culturally nebulous Anglo-American slave from the South.

Through historical records, we can see that Sojourner Truth née "Isabella Baumfree" spoke Dutch as her first language, and had a Dutch culture specifically from New York. Sources indicate that as a child she only spoke New York Dutch and learned English later in her life, with a heavy Dutch accent.

From Mary Grace Albanese's "Black Women and Energies of Resistance in Nineteenth-Century Haitian and American Literature"

Albanese names her as one of the "Black Dutch prophets of New York" in the introduction on page 15.

Further, on pages on 100 to 101, Albanese speaks on Truth's Creolized background, touching on the Black Dutch society that she came from, and how this perspective made her different to Black Anglo-Americans.

Born under the name Isabella Baumfree in Rifton, New York, Truth grew up in a cosmopolitan milieu inflected by Dutch, African, and Caribbean culture; this milieu introduced her to hemispheric, creolized, and transculturated spiritual folk traditions that exceeded the boundaries of the United States. Truth's first language was Dutch, her spiritual beliefs were African... Truth's early life puts pressure on the limitations of traditional Anglo-American nationalist narratives that have sought to define her.

Truth's "cosmopolitanism" - or rather her creolized background, a term I believe is more appropriate to describe her cultural contexts- highlights her lifelong mobility.

On page 105 Albanese touches on some of Truth's Black Dutch and Caribbean influences:

There exist small hints of Truth's possible contact with Caribbean and African traditions throughout her life... Truth's son Peter went to sea, sending her letters from the West Indies and perhaps news from Haiti... Most strikingly, Truth's conversion narrative aligns with Pinkster, a Pentecostal holiday typically celebrated in Black Dutch communities of New York and New Jersey.

On page 106, Albanese touches again on Truth's life, and states that her unique point of view came from her life in "Creolized Dutch New York", and that this understanding is crucial for the cultural realities of early Black America:

Understanding Truth's Atlantic and hemispheric influences allow critics to glimpse the Netherlands, Curaçao, and Haiti embedded within the modest cultural circles of US national identity... Truth's creolized background and commitment to mobility not only expand critical understandings of African-American nineteenth-century culture but also redefine energy practices typically associated with Black women's enslavement.

As we can see, Truth's Black Dutch culture of New York, her Creolized reality of life is crucial to understanding her point of view, as well as what community she grew up in. This is no different to Black Pennsylvania Dutch people from Pennsylvania being of Pennsylvania Dutch heritage, and Creoles of Color being of Louisiana French heritage.

It's like treating Homer Plessy as just a nebulous Black Anglo-American- a lot of understanding is lost by removing the community he belonged to, Louisiana Creoles. Aearthrise (talk) 22:20, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

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