Misplaced Pages

Talk:Tulsa race massacre: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from[REDACTED] with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 18:35, 27 February 2024 edit2604:3d09:1f80:ca00:cdeb:a0f3:2a49:ecd1 (talk) Pogrom?: ReplyTag: Reply← Previous edit Revision as of 18:51, 27 February 2024 edit undo2604:3d09:1f80:ca00:cdeb:a0f3:2a49:ecd1 (talk) Pogrom?: ReplyTag: ReplyNext edit →
Line 49: Line 49:
::Riot used to be the word for this sort of event(I actually did some research into this, most events called ‘race riots’ or even many other riots like the Delhi Sikh Riots or Aleppo Riots are basically this sort of violence. Tulsa Race Riot fits that), it’s historically an extremely big tent term that covers a lot of things, but especially after the LA Riots it’s instead essentially come to refer to either ‘violent out of control protest’ or ‘sports riot’. Elaine and Tulsa got their pages renamed after Watchmen drew attention to them, though interestingly most of those other events still have their pages called Riot. ::Riot used to be the word for this sort of event(I actually did some research into this, most events called ‘race riots’ or even many other riots like the Delhi Sikh Riots or Aleppo Riots are basically this sort of violence. Tulsa Race Riot fits that), it’s historically an extremely big tent term that covers a lot of things, but especially after the LA Riots it’s instead essentially come to refer to either ‘violent out of control protest’ or ‘sports riot’. Elaine and Tulsa got their pages renamed after Watchmen drew attention to them, though interestingly most of those other events still have their pages called Riot.
::I will say I don’t think saying ‘Riot’ was chosen as a term specifically to try to coverup the event though, that was just the vernacular for this sort of thing. (Rather the efforts to cover it were hiding bodies in mass graves in the case of Tulsa, and blaming the blacks for starting it in both Tulsa and especially Elaine) ] (]) 18:35, 27 February 2024 (UTC) ::I will say I don’t think saying ‘Riot’ was chosen as a term specifically to try to coverup the event though, that was just the vernacular for this sort of thing. (Rather the efforts to cover it were hiding bodies in mass graves in the case of Tulsa, and blaming the blacks for starting it in both Tulsa and especially Elaine) ] (]) 18:35, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
:::I guess my issue is different bites of the site are using different terms.
:::Most pages still use Riot in the big tent sense of the word, including other American incidents like Atlanta or some of the international ones.
:::There was a list of deadliest riots on the ‘battles and other violent events page’ (which was up for years, but recently taken down due to fighting and brigading regarding whether or not October 7th was a terrorist attack or not), and it used the Big tent definition. Race Riots, Pogroms, Sports Riots, Violent Protests, and Peasant Uprisings were all counted as riots, including both Tulsa and Elaine. And if Tulsa and Elaine aren’t riots anymore, then logically there’s dozens of other pages to be renamed. It can’t be both a big tent term and a very specific term, and unfortunately some people use it one way and some people the other and they aren’t all moving in the same direction. ] (]) 18:51, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Revision as of 18:51, 27 February 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Tulsa race massacre article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs· FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 2 months 
A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section on May 31, 2012 and May 31, 2021.
This  level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
[REDACTED] African diaspora High‑importance
[REDACTED] This article is within the scope of WikiProject African diaspora, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of African diaspora on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.African diasporaWikipedia:WikiProject African diasporaTemplate:WikiProject African diasporaAfrican diaspora
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconCrime and Criminal Biography: Serial, mass, and spree killers High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the Serial Killer task force (assessed as Low-importance).
WikiProject iconDeath Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconDisaster management Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Disaster management, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Disaster management on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Disaster managementWikipedia:WikiProject Disaster managementTemplate:WikiProject Disaster managementDisaster management
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
[REDACTED] Discrimination High‑importance
[REDACTED] This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale.
WikiProject iconMilitary history: North America / United States C‑class
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history
CThis article has been rated as C-class on the project's quality scale.
B checklist
This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
  1. Referencing and citation: criterion not met
  2. Coverage and accuracy: criterion met
  3. Structure: criterion met
  4. Grammar and style: criterion met
  5. Supporting materials: criterion met
Associated task forces:
Taskforce icon
North American military history task force
Taskforce icon
United States military history task force
WikiProject iconOklahoma: Tulsa Top‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Oklahoma, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of Oklahoma on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.OklahomaWikipedia:WikiProject OklahomaTemplate:WikiProject OklahomaOklahoma
TopThis article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by Task-force Tulsa (assessed as Top-importance).
WikiProject iconUnited States History High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject United States History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the history of the United States on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.United States HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject United States HistoryTemplate:WikiProject United States HistoryUnited States History
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject United States History To-do:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:
It is requested that an image or photograph of Contemporary photo of the Greenwood district and an additional photo of the memorial for the victims of the Tulsa Race Riot be included in this article to improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific media request template where possible.
Wikipedians in Oklahoma may be able to help!
The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites.
Upload
This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

  • RM, Tulsa race riot → Tulsa Race Massacre of 1919, No move, April 28, 2017
  • RM, Tulsa race riot → Tulsa race massacre, Move reverted, November 20, 2018
  • RM, Tulsa race riot → Tulsa race massacre, No consensus, August 8, 2019.
  • RM, Tulsa race riot → Tulsa Race Massacre, Request declined, October 15, 2019
  • RM, Tulsa race riot → Tulsa Massacre of 1921, Request declined, January 5, 2020
  • RM, Tulsa race riot → Tulsa race massacre, Moved, February 7, 2020
This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report 4 times. The weeks in which this happened:
Section sizes
Section size for Tulsa race massacre (56 sections)
Section name Byte
count
Section
total
(Top) 15,520 15,520
Background 8,169 8,169
Monday, May 30 (Memorial Day) 35 3,481
Encounter in the elevator 2,141 2,141
Brief investigation 1,305 1,305
Tuesday, May 31 21 17,621
Arrest of Rowland 1,756 1,756
Newspaper coverage 3,512 3,512
Stand-off at the courthouse 4,803 4,803
Taking up arms 4,831 4,831
Outbursts of violence 2,698 2,698
Wednesday, June 1 1,360 15,841
Fires begin 2,944 2,944
Daybreak 1,371 1,371
Attack by air 5,406 5,406
Arrival of National Guard troops 4,760 4,760
Aftermath 15 36,824
Casualties 9,899 9,899
Property losses 954 954
Identities of the African American victims 3,424 3,424
Public Safety Committee 856 856
Rebuilding 4,793 4,793
Tulsa Union Depot 4,917 4,917
1921 grand jury investigation 37 6,454
Allegations of corruption 1,476 1,476
John A. Gustafson 4,941 4,941
Breaking the silence 5,512 5,512
Survivors 269 17,088
Olivia Hooker 2,442 2,442
Eldoris McCondichie 2,193 2,193
George Monroe 1,254 1,254
Mary E. Jones Parrish 2,456 2,456
Lessie Benningfield ("Mother Randle") 1,785 1,785
Hal Singer 2,053 2,053
Essie Lee Johnson Beck 1,550 1,550
Vernice Simms 1,543 1,543
Lena Eloise Taylor Butler 1,543 1,543
Tulsa Race Massacre Commission 2,243 2,243
Post-commission actions 29 27,989
Search for mass graves 12,476 12,476
Reconciliation 3,331 3,331
Survivors' lawsuit 2,526 2,526
John Hope Franklin Reconciliation Park 1,474 1,474
Renewed calls for restitution 8,153 8,153
President Biden's 2021 visit 1,249 1,249
Tulsa Historical Society and Museum 1,135 1,135
Present-day Black Wall Street 1,428 1,428
In popular culture 63 13,876
Literature 3,747 3,747
Film and television 7,674 7,674
Music and art 2,392 2,392
See also 797 797
References 289 289
Bibliography 4,909 4,909
Further reading 3,450 3,450
External links 2,778 2,778
Total 174,687 174,687

"Black Wall Street"

There doesn't seem to be a primary source from the time linked, that shows that the street was known as "black wall street." Even the source linked doesn't say it was "negro wall street." Could we verify this and add one? 2601:603:1080:BD90:BC5D:6E81:32F1:598 (talk) 06:02, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Pogrom?

Seeing as people are moving away from the term riot to describe this sort of event(even though there's a long history of it, see Atlanta Race Riots, Aleppo Riots, 1984 Delhi Anti-Sikh Riots, Elaine Riots, Salvador Peasant Riots), I get the name change, English is a living language, riot doesn't have that connotation of mass violence the way it used to to many people especially post 1992, I get it, not gonna argue that.

But I feel Pogrom is probably the best word to fit what this was, given the racial component of the event and the civilian lead nature of the event(Massacre would fit better if it was top down, this was bottom up lead by citizens, that's a pogrom) 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:91E0:70D:A479:6EF9 (talk) 00:53, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

That's a very cogent point, but I basically think of pogram as applying to European Jews, so, unless we have some refs using the word, I would be original research to use it. The Misplaced Pages has to lag behind things a bit, not lead. So we'd have to wait for other people to start using it. Herostratus (talk) 06:53, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
Fair enough, but like I said there isn’t really a word that fits perfectly at the moment.
Pogrom is usually associated with Jewish events like the Aleppo Riots or Polish Pogroms.
Massacre is usually associated with state actors, armys, or terrorist, and tends to be more top down, not a bunch of random riled up citizens commiting the violence.
Riot used to be the word for this sort of event(I actually did some research into this, most events called ‘race riots’ or even many other riots like the Delhi Sikh Riots or Aleppo Riots are basically this sort of violence. Tulsa Race Riot fits that), it’s historically an extremely big tent term that covers a lot of things, but especially after the LA Riots it’s instead essentially come to refer to either ‘violent out of control protest’ or ‘sports riot’. Elaine and Tulsa got their pages renamed after Watchmen drew attention to them, though interestingly most of those other events still have their pages called Riot.
I will say I don’t think saying ‘Riot’ was chosen as a term specifically to try to coverup the event though, that was just the vernacular for this sort of thing. (Rather the efforts to cover it were hiding bodies in mass graves in the case of Tulsa, and blaming the blacks for starting it in both Tulsa and especially Elaine) 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:CDEB:A0F3:2A49:ECD1 (talk) 18:35, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
I guess my issue is different bites of the site are using different terms.
Most pages still use Riot in the big tent sense of the word, including other American incidents like Atlanta or some of the international ones.
There was a list of deadliest riots on the ‘battles and other violent events page’ (which was up for years, but recently taken down due to fighting and brigading regarding whether or not October 7th was a terrorist attack or not), and it used the Big tent definition. Race Riots, Pogroms, Sports Riots, Violent Protests, and Peasant Uprisings were all counted as riots, including both Tulsa and Elaine. And if Tulsa and Elaine aren’t riots anymore, then logically there’s dozens of other pages to be renamed. It can’t be both a big tent term and a very specific term, and unfortunately some people use it one way and some people the other and they aren’t all moving in the same direction. 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:CDEB:A0F3:2A49:ECD1 (talk) 18:51, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
Categories:
Talk:Tulsa race massacre: Difference between revisions Add topic