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Heritage

Yuchitown, Thanks so much for your interest in Patricia Marroquin Norby's article.

I am confused about this edit. The source was a school district document - not quite getting how language from one document should supersede commonly available information. In most cases,

• she's just identified as "Purépecha"

• "Patricia Marroquin Norby" Purépecha has 3200 links
• "Patricia Marroquin Norby" Purepéche has 3 links

• "Patricia Marroquin Norby" Tarascan has 6 links
• "Tarascan" had been described as "The term has pejorative connotations"
• it's better to link the words in quotes - and then find a link that best fits that phrase. The best that I could find was "] descent"

Based on this, it seems that the most appropriate and considerate language is that Norby "is of Purépecha and Eastern Apache descent."

I am guessing, but I could definitely be wrong, that you are a close contributor to the subject of the article, if that is right, please look at Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest guidelines.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:33, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

No, I am not particularly involved in this article, nor do I have a conflict of interest. It's just good practice to use the actual quote from the person in question. The quote is significant for its earlier appearance. Yuchitown (talk) 00:42, 22 July 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

I see. It is sounding like we can work something out. There are already sources in the article that mention that she is of Purépecha and Apache descent. I just got a count on Eastern Apache and found just three so the common information by far is that she is of Purépecha and Apache descent.

So it seems that the best approach is to: use sources already in the References list (i.e., not needing to search any more). I will add a couple extra citations, a common approach when there have been differences of opinion to show that it's the common usage. And, the usage will exactly match the source (not a requirement, but I am hearing where you are coming from).–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:31, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I have updated the article as mentioned directly above. I also put the other sentence (with the uncommon usage) in a note. So the body of the article is clean with common usage content - but the other sentence is still in the article.

As a side comment, I noticed that there were far fewer sources in the article than I expected that mentioned her specific nations / people. I am guessing that since she is representing all Native Americans it just confuses the issue by getting into her specific background. Do you have any thoughts about that?–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:58, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Added than I expected–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:20, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I am just asking to determine if there is some sensitivity about being more specific than "Native American" or "Indigenous person", like in at the National Museum of the American Indian.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:01, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

You can always ask questions about Indigenous peoples of the Americas at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America! In the English-language Misplaced Pages uses Native American to refer to Native Americans in the United States. What exactly are you asking about Native American here? She is not a Native American herself, but she is the associate curator of Native American art. Yuchitown (talk)Yuchitown Yuchitown (talk) 22:04, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Yuchitown, Thanks for your response.

My point was that many articles just say she is Native American and wondered why a general statement of Native American was used.

I am confused by She is not a Native American herself. She is not Apache or Purépecha? Her great-grandmother is not Purépecha?–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:02, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Here (and in most cases in IRL) Native American is defined as belonging to Indigenous peoples of the United States. Purépecha are one of the Indigenous peoples of Mexico. She claims descent from them. Yuchitown (talk) 17:14, 24 July 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Yuchitown, Gotcha. That's the way that I have used the terms, because I use the terms commonly used in the relevant countries, e.g., "First Nations" for Canada, "indigenous people" for Mexico.

Fortunately, I just found, even though she's identified as Native American by some sources, like this, (perhaps due to her Apache ancestors), I didn't use that in the article. So, we're good to go.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:09, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Indigenous woman

Just to piggy back on that discussion, and for future reference, Norby identifies herself as an "Indigenous woman" in his interview.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:45, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Just adding, there's now claims she is a pretendian: .  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 23:47, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

That's from the New York Post, not the most reliable source as I have been told for awhile. I recently uploaded a java script tool User:Headbomb/unreliable, too, which checks for unreliable sources and your url lights up pink for me as generally unreliable.

Two things:

• I will take a look at the PBS article and see what else there is out there about her heritage.
• Since you bring it up, in the work that I did on Draft:Native American definition, there are definitions from some governmental agencies and the Native Rights Fund - based upon citizenship, as you well know. This appears to be related to benefit eligibility. Then, there are six definitions, such as the one from Cornell Law School which bases it's definition on 20 U.S. Code § 1059f - Native American-serving, nontribal institutions.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:44, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I know it's not a preferred source on Misplaced Pages, but it's likely a more reliable newspaper will cover the story in upcoming days.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 00:58, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Indent to read a bit easier.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:27, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Research:

• From PBS, Norby states "I am Purepecha. I'm Purepecha descent" and Vanasco says "Patricia Marroquin Norby is Indigenous. Her family is from a pueblo in Mexico".
• The NYP does not provide sources about it's dispute of Norby's claims, just general "legal filings", etc. nothing that can be checked.
• The Met states that she is Purepacha, a Mexican indigenous group. - which is in alignment with the PBS article.
• Tribal Alliance Against Frauds makes some claims that are concerning, making claims again without sources, like that the Purepacha have not lived in Jalisco, Mexico for centuries. On the other hand, see Indigenous Jalisco from the Spanish contact to 2010. Malignment by this organization and the NYP - when trying to find reliable sources for them. IMO, this really gets down to citizenship vs. heritage.

I am going to stop here. This is a big issue and it really gets down to the definitions. It also looks to be a brand new issue - May 25, 2024 - so there hasn't been a chance for reliable sources to respond yet. So, that's probably why I am not finding responses to this from reliable sources.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:26, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Georgia O'Keeffe article - Native Scholar’s Questions

As an FYI, I am working on items from the Talk:Georgia O'Keeffe#Native Scholar’s Questions discussion that affects this article.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:36, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Reverted edits

There were several edits with claims without reliable sources. I reverted the edits to the last clean version here. Do you have reliable sources?–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:36, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

@CaroleHenson I don't need to provide anything. She made the unverified claim. There are sources that demonstrate she makes those claims, but there's no source to verify the claims. That makes her self-identified. Do you have a source backing up Norby's claim? Please provide the source. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:46, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, they are in the article and Yuchitown and I talked about it extensively as you'll see at the top of this talk page. You cannot change cited content into something else. You need a new citation if you are going to change content. Perhaps you can wait a bit and see if more reliable sources pick up the New York Post article.

I am not making this up:

• From Reliable sources, first paragraph:

Misplaced Pages articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered (see Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view). If no reliable sources can be found on a topic, Misplaced Pages should not have an article on it. (Note: bold from the guideline)

• Without a source, it's WP:Original research.
• Misplaced Pages:Verifiability - "Even if you are sure something is true, it must have been previously published in a reliable source before you can add it."
• Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, not truth–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Tribal source of the numerous tribes she claims claiming her back in return? Otherwise it's self-identified.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 03:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

@CaroleHenson The sources provide documentation of her self-identification as being of Indigenous heritage. They provide nothing more. I don't actually need any additional citations. We already have the citations for her self-identification as Indigenous. There's no original research. She self-identifies and we can certainly have that self-identification mentioned in the article despite her lack of proof. We have guidance from the Indigenous WikiProject on how to navigate these issues. Is this a reading comprehension issue or you have simply chosen to disregard the guidance of the Indigenous WikiProject on these matters? If the latter, why? This really isn't all that complicated. There's no need to reinvent the wheel here. We already have guidance on how to mention self-identified Indigenous heritage within articles. You have failed to provide verification of her Indigenous heritage claims. Can you provide that verification? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 03:21, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

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