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Revision as of 17:31, 29 May 2024 editSlatersteven (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers73,787 edits Islamist← Previous edit Revision as of 17:35, 29 May 2024 edit undoDalremnei (talk | contribs)56 edits Islamist: ReplyTag: ReplyNext edit →
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:::::::::::::Well, I knew this would happen as soon as someone tried to drag this issue into the talk page. You win, established editors. You get to comfortably ignore opposing views because the mainstream media affirms all of yours. I tried to make a compromise edit that addressed this edit but oh, that's not good enough... wiki editors demand absolute ideological compliance. ] (]) 17:10, 29 May 2024 (UTC) :::::::::::::Well, I knew this would happen as soon as someone tried to drag this issue into the talk page. You win, established editors. You get to comfortably ignore opposing views because the mainstream media affirms all of yours. I tried to make a compromise edit that addressed this edit but oh, that's not good enough... wiki editors demand absolute ideological compliance. ] (]) 17:10, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::::No, we demand you adhere to our rules. If that's unpalatable, you may want to look elsewhere. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:27, 29 May 2024 (UTC) ::::::::::::::No, we demand you adhere to our rules. If that's unpalatable, you may want to look elsewhere. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:27, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::But it seems impossible to get this edit done in a way that satisfies "the rules". Every time I reverted the page it was reverted back, and then I was accused of edit-warring. If you aren't part of the elite editor clique your views mean nothing. ] (]) 17:35, 29 May 2024 (UTC)





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Q1: Is the article biased against conspiracy theories? A1: Misplaced Pages is a mainstream encyclopedia so this article presents the accepted version of the events according to reliable sources. Although reliable sources have repeatedly reported on conspiracy theories, reporting on conspiracy theories is not the same thing as advocating conspiracy theories or accepting them as fact. The most recent discussion that resulted in the current consensus took place on this talk page in December 2011. If you disagree with the current status, you are welcome to bring your concerns to the article talk page. Please read the previous discussions on this talk page and try to explain how your viewpoint provides new arguments or information that may lead to a change in consensus. Please be sure to be polite and support your views with citations from reliable sources. Q2: Should the article use the word "terrorist" (and related words)? A2: Misplaced Pages:Words to watch states that "there are no forbidden words or expressions on Misplaced Pages". That being said, "terrorism" is a word that requires extra attention when used in Misplaced Pages. The consensus, after several lengthy discussions, is that it is appropriate to use the term in a limited fashion to describe the attacks and the executors of these attacks. The contributors have arrived at this conclusion after looking at the overwhelming majority of reliable sources that use this term as well as the United Nations' own condemnation of the attacks.
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Former featured articleSeptember 11 attacks is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
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In the newsOn this day... Article milestones
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January 19, 2004Refreshing brilliant proseKept
February 26, 2004Featured article reviewDemoted
January 10, 2005Featured article candidateNot promoted
December 29, 2006Featured article candidateNot promoted
January 27, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed
February 14, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed
October 16, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed
May 19, 2008Good article nomineeListed
May 29, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
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August 20, 2008Good article reassessmentKept
June 19, 2010Good article reassessmentDelisted
July 5, 2011Good article nomineeNot listed
July 25, 2011Good article nomineeListed
August 23, 2011Peer reviewReviewed
August 30, 2011Featured article candidateNot promoted
September 25, 2011Good article reassessmentDelisted
May 24, 2013Good article nomineeNot listed
July 13, 2015Good article nomineeListed
October 27, 2018Featured article candidateNot promoted
In the news News items involving this article were featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "In the news" column on September 11, 2001, and September 11, 2002.
On this day... Facts from this article were featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on September 11, 2003, September 11, 2004, September 11, 2005, September 11, 2006, September 11, 2009, September 11, 2012, September 11, 2013, September 11, 2017, September 11, 2018, September 11, 2020, and September 11, 2023.
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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
Discussions:
  • RM, September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attacks → September 11, 2001 attacks, Moved, 17 January 2004, Discussion
  • RM, September 11, 2001 attacks → September 11, 2001, attacks, Not moved, 21 October 2004, Discussion
  • RM, September 11, 2001 attacks → September 11 attacks, Moved, 20 August 2008, Discussion
  • RM, September 11 attacks → September 11, 2001 attacks, Not moved, 13 October 2010, Discussion
  • RM, September 11 attacks → 9/11, Not moved, 31 March 2014, Discussion
  • RM, September 11 attacks → September 11 terrorist attacks, Not moved, 13 February 2021, Discussion
  • RM, September 11 attacks → September 11th attacks, Not moved, 14 February 2021, Discussion
  • RM, September 11 attacks → September 11, 2001 attacks, Procedural close, 23 February 2021, Discussion
  • RM, September 11 attacks → 9/11, Not moved, 26 January 2024, Discussion
  • RM, September 11 attacks → September 11 terrorist attacks, Not moved, 9 February 2024, discussion.
The contents of the World Trade Center/Plane crash page were merged into September 11 attacks on 11 September 2001. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history.
The contents of the Slogans and terms derived from the September 11 attacks page were merged into September 11 attacks on 22 October 2015. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.
Section sizes
Section size for September 11 attacks (45 sections)
Section name Byte
count
Section
total
(Top) 19,394 19,394
Background 5,368 55,355
Osama bin Laden 7,890 7,890
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and other al-Qaeda members 4,601 4,601
Motives 20,054 20,054
Planning 9,945 9,945
Prior intelligence 7,497 7,497
Attacks 3,370 75,045
Crashes 28,009 28,009
Casualties 30,975 30,975
Damage 9,989 9,989
Rescue efforts 2,702 2,702
Reactions 3,398 57,836
Immediate response 8,746 8,746
Domestic reactions 7,816 17,817
Hate crimes 5,471 5,471
Discrimination and racial profiling 1,846 1,846
Muslim American response 1,681 1,681
Interfaith efforts 1,003 1,003
International reactions 17,734 17,734
Military operations 10,141 10,141
Aftermath 88 44,373
Health issues 9,895 9,895
Economic 7,126 7,126
Effects in Afghanistan 7,009 7,009
Cultural influence 4,157 4,157
Government policies towards terrorism 9,749 9,749
Legal proceedings 6,349 6,349
Investigations 21 32,085
FBI 9,373 9,373
CIA 2,195 2,195
Congressional inquiry 6,261 6,261
9/11 Commission 4,176 4,176
National Institute of Standards and Technology 6,075 6,075
Alleged Saudi government role 3,984 3,984
Rebuilding and memorials 32 19,599
Reconstruction 8,324 8,324
Memorials 11,243 11,243
See also 1,222 1,222
References 17 76
Notes 28 28
Citations 31 31
Bibliography 10,519 10,519
Further reading 2,890 2,890
External links 5,091 5,091
Total 323,485 323,485

New WTC *complex*

Second to last sentence in last paragraph of introduction implies that only Tower #1 was rebuilt and does not mention Towers 3, 4 and the incomplete Tower 2. Link to the page for the whole complex and mention there are multiple towers on the site now - a lot of people don't seem to realize that... Ee100duna (talk) 22:06, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Building 3, 4, and the Performing Arts Center are mentioned in section 6.1; additionally, there is a link to the new complex at the heading section of that section. I don't feel like it's really necessary to mention these buildings in the opening paragraph. However, I do feel like that perhaps something along the line of "reconstruction of the World Trade Center complex commenced..." or something to that effect. Butterscotch5 (talk) 23:46, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Photos changed without consensus

I don't know who changed the photos in the Infobox, but the new photos look horrendous. I can't find any consensus in archive for this massive change, may we please revert back to original photos? Cena332 (talk) 00:45, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

I think it’s okay to change photos over time, but they should certainly be discussed here first, especially for this article. PascalHD (talk) 16:44, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

PascalHD These new photos were not discussed and just changed without any discussion, previously editors discussed photos changes to the Infobox on this article talk page first. Is it ok to add the old ones back until editors can have a agreement if we want to change. --Cena332 (talk) 19:50, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I would say it is normal procedure to revert a change that was not discussed when necessary.PascalHD (talk) 21:42, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
just done. Cena332 (talk) 22:00, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 15 May 2024

NOT MOVED WP:SNOW. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 03:39, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


September 11 attacks9/11 – More people call it 9/11. I rarely hear people say, "September 11 attacks". Merv Mat (talk) 15:56, 15 May 2024 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). Merv Mat (talk) 15:57, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

We've been here before - please see Talk:September_11_attacks/Archive_64 for the most recent discussion. Antandrus (talk) 16:19, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
I see nothing new from then last time. Slatersteven (talk) 16:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
Seriously, no. This perennial request is going nowhere. — The Hand That Feeds You: 16:41, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
Oppose Already previously discussed. Absolutely no need to discuss again. David J Johnson (talk) 21:19, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Infobox photos

Infobox photos were changed without consensus, reverting @Cena332's edits. The pictures that are currently on the article's infobox now are horrible, they only display the violence of September 11th. I think we need to have a wider variety of photos that show not only what happened on this day, but also the aftermath. Butterscotch5 (talk) 23:09, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed - I suggest restoring the previous selection, which puts the event in better perspective. Antandrus (talk) 00:17, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Islamist

This has been discussed many times before, with a consensus of sources calling the perpetrators "Islamist." A couple of editors have recently been removing it, with no obvious explanation. I have restored it twice. I invite explanations of why this ought to be removed, using references to reliable sources. Acroterion (talk) 00:33, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I support the previous consensus, which has held for years. We've been through various possibilities, but "Islamist" captures the motivation and ideology of the attackers well, and is supported robustly by reliable sources. Antandrus (talk) 02:39, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
It sure is easy to talk about "reliable sources" and dismiss this edit as "unconstructive" when you completely ignore the reasoning given in the initial edit that removed "Islamist" and in subsequent undos! So that it cannot be ignored on the talk page, here's a little reminder!
  • First edit: No one calls the war crimes committed by Bush or Obama "Democratic terrorism" or such, so why should it be done on here
  • Second edit: Reliable sources are the sources that are reliable only because you want to call them reliable. Use of the word "Islamist" here is of malicious intent, and serves to justify the horrific actions and political agenda of George Bush.
So this is NOT about sources. Address the actual complaint please. Dalremnei --Dalremnei (talk) 13:31, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
This discussion has nothing to do with George Bush or Obama, and you are employing a personal analysis that ignores sources, which are what Misplaced Pages relies upon. Please read WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. This kind of opinion-based content removal is disruptive. Acroterion (talk) 13:35, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
And why do your comments exactly echo the edit summaries used by Par âpre aux astres (talk · contribs)? Acroterion (talk) 13:38, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Please fully read comments before replying to them. The reason I copied those edit summaries into my reply is clear if you actually read it. --Dalremnei (talk) 13:45, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
We already have addressed those complaints. The first complaint is irrelevant. Islamic terrorism is a specific thing, notable, and well cited. The second complaint is a combination of "I don't like it" and assuming bad faith.
I don't see how the first complaint is irrelevant. I'd also be fine with "Islamist terrorism" being the description used if that standard was applied elsewhere as Par âpre aux astres (talk · contribs) has suggested. That would be maintaining a neutral point of view. It's not assuming bad faith when the terminology used is in bad faith, as well. --Dalremnei (talk) 13:52, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Frankly, you need to dial back the rhetoric and take the time to learn Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. You sound like you're here to pick a fight, rather than collaborate in improving articles. — The Hand That Feeds You: 13:45, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Agreed, RS calls it Islamic, so do we, what users' own opinions are does not matter, no matter how logical (read WP:NOTDUMB). Slatersteven (talk) 13:47, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Have you considered that in an Islamophobic, US-centric society, terminology used in reliable sources will reflect those biases? Misplaced Pages can and should do better. Dalremnei (talk) 14:00, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
This is always how bigotry gets justified online. It's dismissed as mere "opinion" or "feelings". 🙄 --Dalremnei (talk) 13:52, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
NO its not, and as said you need to reign it in. Slatersteven (talk) 13:56, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Caps are considered shouting. Please calm down. Dalremnei (talk) 14:04, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Do not accuse other editors of justifying bigotry. That's a personal attack and can result in you being blocked. — The Hand That Feeds You: 14:13, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
How else am I meant to respond then? That isn't always going to be a personal attack. In most cases, like this one, it's just true. Bigots love to hide behind the justification of just being "logical" and "looking at the facts" and I should be able to call that out. Dalremnei (talk) 14:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
By following policy, such as wp:or. If you want to make an edit bring forth RS that backs up your claim, do not make comparisons with other pages = using a wqp:falsebalnc argument. Slatersteven (talk) 14:18, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
That's enough. Unless you have explicit evidence of bigotry, stop making that accusation. If you continue down this path, we'll have to ask admins to block you for personal attacks. — The Hand That Feeds You: 14:43, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Use of the word "Islamist" here is of malicious intent, and serves to justify the horrific actions and political agenda of George Bush. This is a bizarre claim and completely fails WP:AGF. It is not malicious, it's a factual description of the organisation who perpetrated the attack. — Czello 14:36, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
With your second argument, calling the earth spherical serves America's propaganda purposes (Apollo program, etc.). Your first argument is nonsense because no one says such a thing. If you continue to prejudice and attack others, you will be blocked. See WP:NPA, WP:OR, WP:FOC, WP:AGF and WP:UNDUE Parham wiki (talk) 15:15, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Why did you undo my compromise edit? I was trying to make the wording suit both sides. Dalremnei (talk) 15:43, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Its what RS say. Slatersteven (talk) 13:40, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
I suggest that Dalremnei reads carefully all the above comments by experienced editors: stops edit-warring and stops the use of caps - which is considered shouting. The use of the word "Islamist" correctly states the prime motivation of the terriorists and is used by all the worlds mainstream media. Thank you, David J Johnson (talk) 14:01, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
This is always how it goes on wikipedia. You try to make a positive change and then a bunch of editors with millions of edits going back decades jump in to defend the status quo. Dalremnei (talk) 14:05, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
It is positive or a violation of wp:npov? Slatersteven (talk) 14:19, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
The page as it exists right now is a violation of NPOV and I was trying to help fix that. Dalremnei (talk) 14:21, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
NPOV does not require a false balance, it requires that articles reflect a consensus of the major points of view described in reliable sources in proportion to their prominence in those sources. To pretend that the agenda of of bin Laden was not Islamist in nature or to obscure it ignores reality. I will also point out that the lead paragraph(s) is a summary of the reliably-sourced content in the article body, so removing something like that from the lead accomplishes nothing except to confuse the summary. Acroterion (talk) 14:34, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Okay so when are articles about US war crimes going to refer to it as Democratic or Republican terrorism then? Dalremnei (talk) 14:37, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
This is whataboutism. But, in answer to your question – we say what sources say, and they don't call US military action "Democratic or Republican terrorism". The reason that "Islamism" is appropriate is because it is the guiding ideology that led to the attacks described in this article. — Czello 14:39, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Is that not a clear example of the bias of "reliable sources" causing bias on[REDACTED] through wikipedia's policies? Perhaps the more accurate analogy would be calling US war crimes Christian terrorism. That makes just as much sense but would be considered offensive. Dalremnei (talk) 14:42, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
MAybe, but this is not the pace for that discussion, this is about this article, not any others or Misplaced Pages in general. Slatersteven (talk) 14:44, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Unless you can document how Christian beliefs were directly responsible for those "war crimes", you cannot. Reliable sources have clearly demonstrated how Bin Laden & Al Qaeda were driven by Islamist extremist beliefs.
But this is getting into WP:FORUM territory, it's no longer about this article. It's about you personally taking offense to how reliable sources have documented the motives behind the attacks, which is a you problem. — The Hand That Feeds You: 14:49, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
How are muslim beliefs supposedly responsible for 9/11? That's a completely amaterialistic look at motives. Geopolitics and war are far better explanations than religious belief. Dalremnei (talk) 15:47, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
We do not say Muslin. belives were, we say Islamists ones were, not all Muslims are Islamists. Slatersteven (talk) 15:52, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
You should probably read the article then, along with Islamism, because it's laid out there. — The Hand That Feeds You: 15:50, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Well, I knew this would happen as soon as someone tried to drag this issue into the talk page. You win, established editors. You get to comfortably ignore opposing views because the mainstream media affirms all of yours. I tried to make a compromise edit that addressed this edit but oh, that's not good enough... wiki editors demand absolute ideological compliance. Dalremnei (talk) 17:10, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
No, we demand you adhere to our rules. If that's unpalatable, you may want to look elsewhere. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:27, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
But it seems impossible to get this edit done in a way that satisfies "the rules". Every time I reverted the page it was reverted back, and then I was accused of edit-warring. If you aren't part of the elite editor clique your views mean nothing. Dalremnei (talk) 17:35, 29 May 2024 (UTC)


OK what was wrong with the last edit, Let's engage in a bit of whataboutsim. Do we say "Islam (what RS calls a religion)"? Do we say "WW2 (what RS call a war)? Do we say "Dog (which RS call an animal)"? No, where RS is pretty much unanimous we do not engage in WP:FALSEBALANCE. Slatersteven (talk) 15:50, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

False equivalance. Dalremnei (talk) 17:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
And that is just what you are being told, that is the point. Slatersteven (talk) 17:18, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

The is going nowhere, a clear case of wp:idnht and it needs closing. Slatersteven (talk)

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