Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 22:20, 14 April 2007

This page is for discussing edits concerning the Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest guideline. For assistance with concerns about an article relative to this guideline please utilize the conflict of interest noticeboard.

• Misplaced Pages talk:Vanity guidelines/Archive 1
• /Archive2
• Premerge talk page of third section
• /Archive3

"Self promotion"?

I want to put up a page about a family owned company. I don't want to promote it--the business is operated for family and by family--not for anyone else. Can I do it?

• Thanks for asking. However, this isn't the right place to discuss individual articles. You can try Misplaced Pages:Help desk. You should also look at Misplaced Pages:Notability before creating any new articles. Jehochman (/_Contrib) 15:14, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

--thanks, will do

Lead Edit, Rest Needs Clean Up

I revised the major bullet points to remove internal inconsistency and reflect what we've been discussing since everyone seems close to agreement. If I am wrong, feel free to change or revert. I don't mind. Can we clean up the rest of the guideline. It's too wordy, resulting in redundancy and inconsistency. Jehochman (/_Contrib) 04:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Completely in agreement here. Also like the direction Mike4ty4 is going in content and tone, though I agree re abridging. Thank you! --Jim Butler 05:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the article needs work, but the recent edits were generally a step in the wrong direction (not to mention they made it longer). Editors shouldn't ever link to their own sites, period, nor write articles about themselves. Overall, the changes are a weakening of the guideline, which I think is a really bad idea. Editors spamming and writing about themselves is a big problem, and the last thing we need to do is making it seem more acceptable. What's the reasoning behind these changes, is WP really suffering because editors aren't writing about themselves and linking to their own sites enough? --Milo H Minderbinder 12:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Milo, did you catch the discussion above, under Guideline is based on ad hominem? Editors who edit within policy should not be penalized for who they are off-WP. This guideline should be cautionary only. thx, Jim Butler 01:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

While it is cautionary, it also needs to be useful to those dealing with COI problems. When someone spams or makes POV edits about themselves or their organization, this guideline is an important tool to be able to point to. With the new version, there's much more room for wikilawyering - an editor can just argue they were "using great caution" in their COI edits and doing nothing that wasn't allowed by the guideline. The problem with editing articles about yourself is that you don't have the perspective to know when you're being biased. For the same reason, it's a bad idea to let editors judge for themselves whether they're "using great caution" - if other editors are telling you that your edits are POV and you're showing a COI, you generally are. I'm not sure why there's such concern about "penalizing" editors. Spam and COI editing is a big problem on wikipedia. Is the inability of editors to write articles about themselves and link to their own sites a problem? A big enough one to risk making the spam problem worse over? --Minderbinder 01:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

If the edits are POV, then we revert them and deal with the editor, whether the editor has apparent COI or not. Why are bad edits by COI editors any worse than bad edits by non-COI ones, or anon ones who may or may not have COI? As Jehochman says, policies are in place to deal with noncompliant editors. Don't we want people who pass WP:BIO to edit topics that they are familiar with? Under the "don't ever do it" COI guideline, Richard Dawkins could not come here and edit his own article (other than to remove libel), or articles about alternative medicine. That is absurd. We're throwing out the baby with the bathwater here, and per Jehochman, moreover moving into mediocre, wikiality-land by still allowing anon edits. thx, Jim Butler 01:24, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't want to see anyone editing articles about themself, Richard Dawkins or otherwise - if he wants to contribute to his article, he can participate on the talk page, and the editors of the article can always consent to IAR and letting him edit if they believe him to be handling it neutrally. As for alternative medicine, it probably just depends what part of the article he were to edit. Can you provide an example of an article suffering because the subject couldn't write it? And have you had to deal with COI editors and spammers? --Minderbinder 01:32, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

To answer your questions in turn: (1) not offhand; (2) sure, I've had to deal with contentious editors (with or without arguable COI) and linkspam. They're equally a pain in the ass whether they have COI or not, aren't they? Either way, WP:DR has mechanisms to deal with them. But Jehochman is right that motivated editors will edit anyway (IP proxies, meatpuppetry etc.). Do you disagree?

I'm especially concerned about a blanket ban on editors writing about subjects they're "closely connected to", in addition to articles about themselves. The harms of taking COI too far are plenty evident in the ArbCom case I mentioned above.

Why shouldn't a non-anonymous editor be able to edit whatever s/he wants, as long as the edits are otherwise compliant? A guy like Dawkins shouldn't even have a chance to edit alt-med stuff, because he might not be compliant, whereas some anonymous high school kid can? "Welcome to Misplaced Pages, the 💕 that anyone (except experts) can edit." How utterly mediocre. If the guideline as you contemplate it flies, a fork of WP can't happen too soon. sincerely, Jim Butler 03:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Milo, the edit intended to eliminate internal inconsistency. We had sentences that allowed wiggle room, and some others that didn't. I tried to make everything line up. Moreover, we have a real problem if we give anonymous editors a leg up over those who choose to identify themselves. If an anonymous editor makes good edits, you have no, ABSOLUTELY NO, way to tell if he has COI or not. Meanwhile, if somebody else decides to identify themselves, and makes the same good edit, somebody could potentially use a tighter version of this guideline to pounce on them. Identified editors shouldn't be treated worse than anonymous editors. In any case, the problems that COI seeks to prevent are covered by other policies. This guideline is here precisely to caution people so we have less Wikilawyering, not more. If somebody makes a bad edit, this guideline isn't going to give them any comfort. Instead, we can point to WP:COI and say "You were warned, but you decided to take the risk, and now you see the consequences." Jehochman (/_Contrib) 03:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

However, the discussion Jim cited, "Guideline is based on ad hominem", is not talking about POV edits, which are obviously bad, but about neutral edits. Those are not bad. And what about cases where the editor is informed of their bias, but then attempts to correct that bias? Ie. where they do not have intent on being biased? mike4ty4 07:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

(undent)Jim - I don't agree that they're equally a pain in the ass, generally COI edits have been much easier to deal with because the guideline was clear cut. DR has mechanisms to deal either way, but the process is (was?) much simpler with COI situations. "Closely connected to" is a strawman, nobody has argued that people shouldn't edit topics they're experts in, only ones about themselves or their organization. Dawkins could certainly edit alt-med stuff, you just happened to list an article that discusses him by name. In regard to information about him, a high school kid might be a better judge of what is a neutral way to describe him and his work. People generally aren't as good at evaluating themselves as neutrally as third parties are, regardless of education or expertise. Jehochman, I have never advocated "pouncing" on those who make good edits - anyone who makes POV edits should be dealt with, and the point of this policy isn't to punish those with who are neutral and follow the rules but to make it easier to deal with COI editors who do make POV edits. --Minderbinder 03:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

If somebody writes an article about me, I certainly should be allowed to make neutral edits. For instance, if they get my year of birth wrong, or spell my name wrong, why shouldn't I correct it? If there is no POV problem, then there is no COI problem either. I agree with you that run-of-the-mill POV problems are less severe than a POV + COI problem. The latter is much more likely to result in an edit war, or other persistent disruption. This guideline puts every editor on notice that there are serious consequences for COI motivated edits that violate other policies. Essentially, COI is an "intensifying" factor when we consider what to do about somebody who makes bad edits. Jehochman (/_Contrib) 04:03, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Things like birthday or name spelling can be corrected, and WP guidelines already say that's fine. --Minderbinder 04:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I think we are in agreement. Can we look at the wording and see what further changes, if any, are need to convey the position that we all seem to have agreed? Jehochman (/_Contrib) 04:22, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Dissagree. "exercise great caution" defeats the purpose of having the guideline. Edits other than vandalism removal are a conflict of interest. common sense would allow editing if the year of birth is wrong, or spelling is off, no one will revert that. This opens the flood gates for the PR drones, spammers and self promoters. The spam problem is massive on wikipedia, it has always been acceptable for someone with a COI to participate in the articles development on the talk page, this does not need to change. Take a look over at WT:WPSPAM most of the spam comes from those with a conflict of interest. heres one from the archives .--Hu12 07:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Surely we can forbid linkspam while allowing substantive, neutral edits from interested (and potentially expert) parties, per above... thx, Jim Butler 07:39, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Agree. It needs to be a sharper implement. However lots of spammers argue the toss about the wording. As worded "if you have a conflict of interest, you should XYZ when editing articles related to you, your organization, or its competitors" it would apply to a wide range of good faith edits which is why "XYZ" cannot be a blanket prohibition. For me XYZ would pretty much rule out the whole of the international charitable and UK government sectors which is a bit ridiculous. I think we should have an "always back down in disputes if you are conflicted" and something specific about link spam perhaps prohibit addition of more than one link ever? --BozMo talk 08:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I like the current wording because it allows the necessary wiggle room for people to make the common sense edits that are obviously NPOV, while allowing us to stop COI edits that show any sign of POV. Can anyone suggest better wording that achieves these two goals? Our problem is that COI is a big gray area, so we need to be careful not to over-regulate or else we could discourage participation by people who may be involved in a field. Jehochman (/_Contrib) 15:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the previous version already had sufficient wiggle room, if you really think "common sense edits" need to be mentioned you could just say something like "You should feel free to correct mistaken or out-of-date facts about yourself, such as marital status, current employer, place of birth, and so on." from AUTO. I still don't see why we need "wiggle room" for adding links to your own website. How does saying not to do that discourage "experts" or prevent good faith edits? And I still don't see any reason why anyone would ever need to link to their own website, even once. If a link needs to be added, they can just suggest it on the talk page, and if it's appropriate other editors will add it. --Minderbinder 15:12, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

What if I want to add an article about myself to a proper category, such as Category:Living people? Jehochman (/_Contrib) 17:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

If it's uncontroversial, nobody would object to you doing it. If it was something potentially controversial or with POV connotations, it would be better to request on the talk page. --Minderbinder 17:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

All POV edits are actually prohibited by official policy, anyways. NPOV is absolute and non-negotiable. mike4ty4 07:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

But the group of editors, say, my edits have addressed, are those that are not self-promoters, PR drones, or spammers. Can you provide, then, a better route that: a. forbids spam, self-promotion, PR drones, etc. b. allows neutral editing and condones honest attempts to be neutral. The "ideal" guideline should be expected to do both. In my opinion, a true conflict of interest is when someone comes in with an intent to push a POV for themselves, their organization, etc. and starts POV pushing, not unconscious biases that he is willing to shed and work on through practice and cooperation with the community, or simple association with the subject of an article without any malicious intent. Unbiased edits, if they manage to get pulled off, should never be discouraged simply because the person is closely associated with something. The very term "conflict of interest" itself denotes that the person has an interest that conflicts with that of Misplaced Pages, namely an interest that is counter to Misplaced Pages's NPOV policy. Interests are conscious and intentional, not unconscious -- ie. they would have deliberate intent to be biased. The people that my argument, and Jehochman's, and others, addresses are not these with such deliberate vanity intentions, but rather those who have no such intentions and want to, and do, edit neutrally. The "pro-ban" advocates seem to keep dancing around this point and focusing only on the obvious, open-and-shut, never-disputed issue of spammers and other ill-intentioned people. Those people are not who my (and others') argument addresses. If you want to make a good case for total banning, then I would suggest you start by providing a substantial and direct answer to this question: Why should we ban people who want to be neutral and try to be neutral? mike4ty4 07:30, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Mike4ty4, if you haven't already, go spend some time investigating WP:COI/N issues. I think it's a good idea to look at this guideline from the perspective of practice. I agree with you that we need to provide better outlets and clearer instructions so that conflicted editors can still contribute, with proper review, so that unintentional POV doesn't creep into articles. Certainly, some simple edits like erasing spam and reverting vandalism, or correcting obvious errors ("You've got my year of birth wrong!") must always be allowed, but we really need to discourage conflicted editors because, in practice, they tend to create huge messes.

I also made a top to bottom edit, just to improve clarity and reduce redundancy. That chopped 335 characters, though more editing is still possible. Jehochman (/_Contrib) 19:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Personal photos of anonymous people

Is there any policy about pictures of anonymous people being used as examples in articles such as blond? In particular these two pictures:

• Blond profile
• Two blond males

In the second image the persons name is identifiable on a name tag.

It seems like these images violate Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest .." self-promotion, including advertising links, personal website links in articles, personal or semi-personal photos, or any other material that appears to promote the private or commercial interests of the editor adding the material, or of his associates."

In addition the images may be problematic because of personality rights.

Are there any rules or policies on this? The problem is not unique to blond but also brunette and I imagine many other articles where people can go about placing their mug-shots under the guise of an "example".

I'm running it a real problem with one editor who is strongly pushing the above two pictures and seems to have some sort of sexual attraction and is trying to track down who these people are. How to deal with something like this? Do we need more specific guidelines on using photos of living people, similar to WP:BLP? IMO, non-notable people need to give explicit permission for their photo to be used in a Misplaced Pages article because the context of its usage can be problematic. You know, suddenly finding your Creative Commons licensed Flicker image up on the Misplaced Pages article "ugly" might not be so cool. -- Stbalbach 05:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

• That doesn't feel like self-promotion to me. They're not really drawing attention to anything (business, website, whatever). So I don't think it's a problem. >Radiant< 13:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
• I agree with Radiant! I wouldn't go looking for trouble. If an article needs a picture, and somebody adds one, and it happens to be their friend, no big deal. On the other hand, if somebody removes a perfectly good picture to replace it with one of their friend, or if they added some sort of promotional caption, that would be dickish. Jehochman (/_Contrib) 14:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

AUTO is NOT policy

Hi.

I just saw that a reference to WP:AUTO that I removed, namely the one in the beginning section where it was being called a "policy", was added back in. WP:AUTO is more of a clarification of a specific instance of WP:COI, and it also not a policy. I do not see why it needs to be emphasized so much over any other COI or N guideline so much, and why it keeps getting called a "policy" so consistently. Has there been some promotion of WP:AUTO to official policy? If so, should WP:COI become one too? And should we change the guideline tag on WP:AUTO to an official-policy tag to reflect this apparent policy-ness? I would have changed it back again, but I'm not going to start an edit war over it, I'd rather discuss things instead. mike4ty4 00:43, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Whoops! Just examined the revert. "And guidelines" was added, so I guess it's better. But I'm still curious as to why WP:AUTO is emphasized so much. mike4ty4 00:45, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Because people have a tendency to write articles about themselves, and in general they shouldn't. >Radiant< 09:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

It is also not advisable to write about any conflict of interest without consensus, period. mike4ty4 07:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello I want to ask something, can we make articles in some other languague like spanish? thanks!

Conflict of interest related additions

I'm currently involved in a polite disagreement over at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam#DermAtlas, and I'd welcome feedback from this community.--Hu12 02:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

That discussion is currently located at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Spam/2007 Archive Apr#DermAtlas. — Athænara ✉ 03:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Conflict with WP:BLP

I've complained about this before in Wikipedia_talk:Autobiography, but after someone mentioned it on wikien, and I checked, it turns out this page is even worse.

We expect that people *should* be able to edit articles about themselves for BLP considerations. This guideline states in such strong terms that users are discouraged from doing so, that any newcomer who reads it will conclude that such things are prohibited. A newcomer isn't going to know the difference between "strongly discouraged", "is considered a standard that all users should follow", "avoid or exercise great caution", etc. and an actual prohibition; the fact that the article literally speaking doesn't prohibit such editing and instead just really really steers users away from it, won't make any practical difference.

This *needs* to be fixed. This guideline as it is goes completely against BLP. Ken Arromdee 23:04, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Typical problem

User Startcom has consideral amount of Edits to StartCom related articles (see users contributions for detail). At what point is is this acceptable? --Hu12 00:15, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

See also: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/StartCom (I know you know this, Hu12, but other editors who follow this page may not). — Athænara ✉ 23:44, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

A new essay as a Further reading link?

Per Jehochman's comments here about the new essay User:Durova/The dark side I'll suggest adding to the list of Further reading links over here.

I specialize in complex investigations and have been concerned not only by the quantity of attempts to manipulate this site but also by mainstream publications outside Misplaced Pages that advocate site policy violations in pursuit of ideological or profit motive editing. The current links from this page explain and encourage the right way to participate but don't focus much on the reasons to avoid the other path. Since I authored the essay I'll propose the link here and leave it for others to evaluate. Durova 18:08, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Nutshell

Problem: upset people see the guideline and see it as a blanket prohibition on fixing the only thing on the whole project which is right now actively spoiling their lives.

My proposed solution: add a "nutshell" which allows for the correction of unambiguous errors of fact, because that's what they want to do.

Result: Nutshell rewritten to remove that exception and reinforce still further the apparent blanket prohibition on fixing the only thing on the whole project which is right now actively spoiling their lives.

Discuss.

Guy (Help!) 21:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

This nutshell is a damn tough assignment! What you placed there was probably a bit too liberal, so I boldly tried something else. Feel free to try again. We need to be careful not to oversimplify this guideline. Every COI editor will say, "But I can be neutral," or "It was just a factual inaccuracy," when in fact they are crossing the line. As for helping people to participate, I have written an essay for Internet marketing types to explain productive ways to work with Misplaced Pages. Idle hands are the devil's tools, so lets provide an outlet for their energies. See Misplaced Pages:Search engine optimization. I'd appreciate your comments and edits there. Jehochman (/_Contrib) 21:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

• Perhaps we could also redirect such editors to the talk page? >Radiant< 10:54, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Rewrite

I just rewrote this guideline. The main thing I did was to trim the fat, including sections which were redundant to other policies and guidelines (discussion about deletion, for example) and some sections which were inappropriate to include (one section which bordered on giving legal advice).

I've given a tighter structure to the lists of situations in which conflicts of interest arise, and I've also included a generic definition of conflict of interest (interest v duty) in the lede and again throughout to reinforce that that is the test for when there is a conflict, and not whether the situation appears in the list.

I've also clarified some of the ambiguity in operation. The position before was contradictory and hovered between a complete prohibition on editing wherever there might be a conflict on the one hand, and "edit if you think you can do it neutrally" on the other. I've made it more strict: you are always discouraged from editing when you have a conflict unless an exception applies. Those are BLP edits, and edits with consensus.

Related to this last point, I've also emphasised what people are encouraged to do instead of editing when they have a conflict, namely, that they should seek community input.

Your comments are invited. --bainer (talk) 16:30, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe also post links to the proposed changes where appropriate, e.g., WP:COIN or the policy section of the village pump. I think your material is better written than the original, but the changes are extensive enough that there should be a community consensus for their adoption. Raymond Arritt 16:39, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

There is certainly a clear improvement, and the greater conciseness welcome. I think the policy is , or should be, more careful and discriminating than as stated. Objective reporting is possible regardless of COI. There is a risk of inaccuracy, and therefore material that might represent COI must be supported particularly well by independent reliable sources. I therefore think that some version of the previous statement that COI must be declared would be appropriate. It is undisclosed COI that represents the danger to WP. articles written by the subject can be judged accordingly--stringently, but with the realization tat some self-assertions of notability will be true. DGG 05:58, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the general feeling is that people really shouldn't edit at all when they have a conflict of interest, despite what is said about exercising caution and being careful to follow policy and so forth. But this needs to be substituted for something; it's not good enough just to tell people they can't edit. This is why I've tried to put emphasis on the things people are encouraged to do instead.

I decided to cut the section about disclosing conflicts partly because it's essentially implicit in the idea of seeking community input on material, and partly because of some old discussion about the section which resulted in the "neutral" stance it took, presenting pros and cons without advocating anything. Someone also mentioned that principles of disclosure have been much better discussed outside of Misplaced Pages and I'd like to research those before developing a section on disclosure. --bainer (talk) 10:00, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

This is an attitude I often take issue with. If the person wants to make an honest effort to be neutral, why should they be punished or forced not to edit? <sighs> more of the problems with the WP community... The source of an edit does not automatically mean the edit benefits/harms the encyclopedia. 74.38.33.68 23:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I've spent a bit of time on WP:COI/N lately. Very few self-written articles are done well. I think we need to provide people with better outlets when they have the energy to write an article about themselves, their company or their client. For existing articles, COI affected editors can post to the talk page. For new articles, they can start in their own user space, and then find an experienced editor to check the article, edit as necessary, and copy to the main space.Jehochman (/_Contrib) 08:39, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

It's to this end that I've tried to emphasise in the rewrite that people's contributions are welcome even when they have a conflict of interest as long as they gain approval/input about them from the community first. This seems to be the best approach distilled from pieces of the old version, from discussions on this talk page and its archives and from general Misplaced Pages principles.

It may be better to emphasise this more, particularly ways for creating new articles. --bainer (talk) 10:00, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

The rewrite certainly trims some of the fat, but some of the crucial bits read like legalese now:

A conflict of interest occurs when your interests, or the interests of those that you represent, conflict or potentially conflict with your duties or obligations. A Misplaced Pages conflict of interest occurs when your interests in editing Misplaced Pages, or the interests of those that you represent, conflict or potentially conflict with your obligations as an editor to abide by Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines, particularly the neutral point of view policy.

I though the original definiton para was clearer and far more concrete.

A Misplaced Pages conflict of interest is an incompatibility between the purpose of Misplaced Pages, to produce a neutral encyclopedia, and the aims of individual editors. These include editing for the sake of promoting oneself, other individuals, causes, organizations, companies, or products, as well as suppressing negative information, and criticizing competitors.

I'm not so sure about including "causes". It's difficult to apply a COI sticker unless it's a specific and provable close business or personal interest. On the WP:COI there have been plenty of cases where COI looks highly likely - say, proponents (or antagonists) of culty religions - but all you can do is watch out for breaches of WP:NPOV. Tearlach 11:44, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you about the orginal paragraph being better. On the "causes" front I'm very much in favor of keeping it in. The charity/nonprofit articles are rife with promotional editing by people who are just editing to mention their favorite mission-driven organization, and it results in crufty articles that fail to provide balanced and critical appraisal of their subjects. Cause-based editing is just as susceptible to COI as business or vanity, and our readers deserve articles in those areas that are as good as articles in other areas. -- Siobhan Hansa 18:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

However, the why nix someone for simply having a "close relationship" to the subject? This first paragraph seems to suggest they must have an "interest" that conflicts with WP, ie. that they must actively want to edit non-neutrally and therefore someone who wants to edit neutrally instead but still has a close relationship should not be banned from editing (because their "interests" or wants would be in agreement with WP -- they'd want neutrality.). 74.38.33.68 23:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Thebrainer, it may make sense to create an essay somewhere that explains to people how to gather up the info about an article they'd like, even one about themselves, post this info to their user space, and then go get it reviewed by somebody independent who can provide advice and potentially post the material to main space if suitable. We can diffuse a lot of sneaky editing if we provide a proper channel. This doens't really exist today for new articles. Jehochman (/_Contrib) 19:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Seems reasonable to offer a non-prescriptive option. I don't think the current system haws much teeth, unless editors have blatantly broken guidelines such as civility and NPOV. Personally, I'd like to see WP:COI as a policy rather than a guideline: since Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard started up, infringing editors have rapidly got wise to the idea that nothing much is going to happen if they break it. You get a lot of responses to the tune of "I hear what you say but it doesn't apply to me because ... fill in the excuse") Tearlach 23:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

And if they do not break the NPOV Policy (not a "guideline", it's a policy, and a very fundamental one at that.). 74.38.33.68 23:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

(reset massive indent) I've been using Template:uw-coi which is an official warning, combined with a prodwarning or AfD, and that seems to work pretty well. The policy seems to have enough teeth, because the perp is almost always breaking other policies in addition to COI. We do need more investigators for WP:COI/N. That's the bottleneck. Jehochman (/_Contrib) 01:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem though is that there does not appear to be harm caused to Misplaced Pages if they do not break the important content policies, including NPOV. 74.38.33.68 23:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. However, the warning assumes good faith and helps inform the user about the risk of COI. This is better than allowing an oblivious editor to embarrass themselves and start content disputes. Jehochman (/_Contrib) 23:15, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

See above under Nutshell.

Both the old and new versions of the guideline basically tell anyone who sees false information in an article about himself that he cannot remove it. A person in such a situation is likely to be a new user, and won't figure out that it's carefully worded so that he actually can edit if he keeps it neutral. The guideline discourages people from editing their article so strongly that it appears to a new user to be a complete ban. Ken Arromdee 14:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

be honest or spill the WP:BEANS?

Anonymity and pseudonymity are common and encouraged on Misplaced Pages; someone with a conflict of interest and poor integrity can easily exploit this. Suppose the congressional staffers of unhappy memory had created accounts? (Actually, who can say some of them didn't?) They'd have been indistinguishable from average election-year partisan editors. Or what if Adam Curry had done his meddling under a pseudonym? And suppose one of these people had squawked about outing when someone tried to reveal their conflicts of interest.

This sort of thing has happened before and will certainly happen again, but I've stuck to hypothetical situations here since this is about general principles rather than specific cases. Right now it seems that there's no effective way to deal with such a problem, and having a guideline discouraging editing with a COI rewards those who disregard it and hide the fact that they're doing so. Should the page be forthright about this ("Editors with a conflict of interest can choose not to reveal it or to actively conceal it. While this behavior is unethical. . ." and so forth), or would that be spilling the WP:BEANS? —Charles P._(Mirv) 14:16, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I think if someone has a conflict of interest, they should spill their own beans that, at least, they are acquainted with the person whose bio they are creatiubng or editing. I'll do that, too. Point taken. Bearian 14:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Conflict of Interest Inquiry

I run a philosophy club at my school, and I'd like to create a[REDACTED] page for it. We have recently been getting a good deal of media attention (including, for instance, Fox News), and I'd like for those interested in the club to be able to look us up up WikiPedia.

Although our stand on various philosophical issues can be expounded upon, I'd stick to the basics and describe more so what the club is about, what it does, etc.

If anything, I'm concerned that because our views on a number of popular topics are rather controversial, the page would get vandalized, but so long as editors remained objective, I'm happy to leave it to the consensus.

Please let me know what you think!

ArthurLZ 23:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Short answer. Don't. WAS 4.250 15:06, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Academic Citation Farming

I wonder if the policy could be written so that clear citation farming attempts by academics are prohibited. While many of these individuals have a lot to contribute to the project, I've also run into a great many who seem primarily interested in adding links to their own work to a wide variety of articles. Academics have a clear private interest in doing this because promotions are often distributed on the basis of the number of times one's work has been cited by others. For recent examples see Special:Contributions/162.84.241.54 and Special:Contributions/Davidellerman. --Beaker342 20:18, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Another example: Kellym133 (talk · contribs). — Athænara ✉ 22:20, 14 April 2007 (UTC)