| Revision as of 18:48, 2 October 2024 editRemsense (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Template editors63,600 editsm Reverted 1 edit by CHEESEGRENDADEnothing (talk) to last revision by RemsenseTags: Twinkle Undo← Previous edit | Revision as of 03:01, 5 October 2024 edit undoEmiya1980 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users20,780 edits →Who should be listed at the top of the main Allied leaders?Next edit → | ||
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| :::::::::{{ec}} We've already had at least two huge RfCs on this issue ( and ]), as well as many earlier and subsequent discussions. The current infobox reflects the results of these discussions over time. ] (]) 07:49, 29 September 2024 (UTC) | :::::::::{{ec}} We've already had at least two huge RfCs on this issue ( and ]), as well as many earlier and subsequent discussions. The current infobox reflects the results of these discussions over time. ] (]) 07:49, 29 September 2024 (UTC) | ||
| {{od}}{{ping|Nug|Dhtwiki|Adoring nanny|Bigeez|ThoughtIdRetired|Peacemaker67|Hawkeye7|Maleschreiber|Whizz40|Grandpallama|TheTimesAreAChanging|Qowert|K.e.coffman|Ali Ahwazi|Anne drew|Staberinde|Serialjoepsycho|KIENGIR|Buidhe|Wes sideman|Pincrete}} In light of your prior participation in an ], you are invited to take part in a new discussion on the issue. If you have any opinions on the matter, please share your thoughts below. ] (]) 03:01, 5 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == World War 2 start date == | == World War 2 start date == | ||
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Possible minor grammar change in lead?
"...and it set the foundation for the international order for the rest of the 20th century and into the 21st century." -> "...and it set the foundation of international order for the rest of the 20th century and into the 21st century"? Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 01:34, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think "of international relations" sounds better than "of international order". "The international order" is a common phrase with a different meaning than "international order". Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 03:36, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Hermann Göring has an RfC
Hermann Göring has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Emiya1980 (talk) 02:52, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
Countries under the Allies and Axis
For the sides of ww2 it just says Allies and Axis and under that the leaders. Shouldn’t it have the actual countries listed like it does for every other war article? MaxwellWinnie102 (talk) 14:59, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Try clicking Participants, as there are too many and it clutters the infobox. Slatersteven (talk) 15:01, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Main Allied Leaders
A good idea would be to add Charles de Gaulle, leader of Free France. He was the leader of a country that became a permanent member of the UN Security Council (as did China). So I don't see the reason for it not being mentioned (like Kai Shek) Νίκος Αστέρης (talk) 18:58, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Try searching his name in the archives and you'll find countless times this has been discussed already. TylerBurden (talk) 19:03, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- And how I can find it? Νίκος Αστέρης (talk) 07:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Paste the n ame into the search box at the top of the page under "Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments, look in the archives, and review the FAQ before commenting." and then click "search Archive". Slatersteven (talk) 09:22, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- And how I can find it? Νίκος Αστέρης (talk) 07:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
When did WWII started in Europe?
One (non so common but possible) suggestion for the start date of WWII in Europe could be said to begin with the first day of the Italian invasion of Albania on 1939-04-07. 130.238.112.129 (talk) 18:49, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- This is not a forum, and it is highly unlikely this is mentioned enough in reliable sources to merit mention in the article. Remsense ‥ 论 19:39, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Philippe Pétain has an RfC
Philippe Pétain has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Emiya1980 (talk) 01:13, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
Names
The World War I article has a section titled "Names" that discusses the naming of the war. I think this article could also benefit from such a section. Based on a cursory glance at sources (such as 1 & 2), the naming of this war is noteworthy enough to be included with a brief mention. At the very least, an explanatory note stating that this war's name was chosen because of ww1. JasonMacker (talk) 15:44, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- I should also note that it could be helpful to also include within the Names section wikilinks & explanations for Pacific war, Great Patriotic war, Second Sino-Japanese war (War of Resistance against Japanese Aggression), and other names used for either the conflict as a whole or a specific part of it. JasonMacker (talk) 15:50, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- Sounds like a worthwhile idea.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I think that would place undue weight on comparative linguistic trivia; think about how much value 100 words has in an article like this one. The "sub-conflict listing" idea seems more like redundant clutter than pure trivia though, but certainly best avoided in any case. Remsense ‥ 论 11:47, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
The Axis leaders
Should the infobox not include the “KIA” template for Adolf hitler and the “executed“ template for Benito Mussolini? E4t5s.new (talk) 09:37, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
- Just because there exists a convention that is used on many articles does not mean it is logically necessary for every applicable article. I don't think there's a need to adopt it here, anyway. Remsense ‥ 论 11:43, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
- But they are real historical events in the Second World War, and if not applied, it may lead people to believe that Hitler and Mussolini were alive for the duration of the war. E4t5s.new (talk) 12:54, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think you have real justification to believe strongly that this would be the case. People are encouraged to read the actual article if they wish to know anything but the plainest possible facts at a glance. If we treated such an element as vital to presentation, it would be codified in the Manual of Style as a guideline. It is presently not, so it is subject to inclusion based largely on per-article consensus as per usual. Remsense ‥ 论 12:59, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
- But they are real historical events in the Second World War, and if not applied, it may lead people to believe that Hitler and Mussolini were alive for the duration of the war. E4t5s.new (talk) 12:54, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
- No. Just because an option exists in a template it doesn't have to be used. And it is misleading: Hitler killed himself. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 00:06, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
- Hitler was not killed in action with enemy (Russian) forces so definitely not KIA - if you apply KIA to Hitler you could also add it to Roosevelt. Arnoutf (talk) 08:51, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
- I agree.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:10, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- Hitler was not killed in action with enemy (Russian) forces so definitely not KIA - if you apply KIA to Hitler you could also add it to Roosevelt. Arnoutf (talk) 08:51, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
Page views chart among 'other banners'
Is anyone interested in having a temporary replacement for the page views chart that used to live among the headers at the top? There used to be one there, until the Graph software was deprecated two years ago for security risks; the collapsed bar lived on, with no chart inside it, until it, too, was finally removed a couple of weeks ago. You probably haven't noticed, but there is now an experimental bar chart banner at that location, collapsed among the 'Other banners'. Please have a look if interested, or remove it, if not. This is just a stop-gap until the original can be repaired or replaced. Mathglot (talk) 03:23, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
Who should be listed at the top of the main Allied leaders?
Should Joseph Stalin be listed in order of precedence above FDR in the infobox? Emiya1980 (talk) 04:07, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
@Nick-D, Paul Siebert, Parsecboy, E-960, Rjensen, and TheFreeWorld: In light of the significant extent of your contributions to the "William I, German Emperor" page (as well as relatively recent evidence of your continued interest in said article), you are invited to participate in a discussion regarding how the main Allied leaders should be listed. Should you feel so inclined, please share your thoughts below.
- If you made me choose, I would place Stalin on top, but I am not presently inclined to insist on this with confidence. In a four-member list it's comparatively immaterial, and right now I'm thinking of arguments one could pitch for any possible ordering—some better than others, but all logically consistent. Remsense ‥ 论 04:15, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- I would put them in alphabetical order by surname which is the usual practice for listing names in English speaking countries. Trying to list them by "order of importance" is subjective and has no support in the reliable sources. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 04:28, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- I think FDR should be listed at the top. While Stalin's Soviet Union was the most directly involved in the defeat of Nazi Germany, it must be remembered that he began the war initially as an ally of Hitler before the launch of Operation Barbarossa in 1941 whereas the U.S. began supporting Britain around a year earlier. Most significantly, the United States was the largest supplier of arms and material to the "Grand Alliance" without which neither Great Britain or the Soviet Union could have likely turned the tide against the Germans. Moreover, given the significant level of mistrust between Churchill and Stalin throughout the conflict, FDR played the most significant role in holding the Big Three intact; it's hardly a coincidence that the alliance began to quickly unravel almost immediately after his death. Emiya1980 (talk) 04:30, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- You can plausibly narrativize any argument you want, but the point is there's no clear answer rooted in what RS would directly say. Remsense ‥ 论 04:36, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- What plausible narrative do you have justifying Stalin's listing at the top? Emiya1980 (talk) 04:38, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- I don't have an RS saying Stalin was the most important leader of World War II, so I won't divulge. That's my entire point. Remsense ‥ 论 04:43, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- In that case, listing them in alphabetical order is probably the best bet. Emiya1980 (talk) 04:45, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think there's a good reason to change it. Fiddling with extremely arbitrary but highly visible things is what I will deploy the WP:BEENHERE argument in earnest for. It is a four-member list, famously called the Big Four. They were all very important, and there is no advantage in deliberating on an ordering, nor in deferring to a lexicographical ordering that's rarely done on Misplaced Pages in these cases. Remsense ‥ 论 04:47, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- There is no good reason to list Stalin, a mass-murdering dictator with a death toll that rivals that of Adolf Hitler, at the top of the Allied Powers. Emiya1980 (talk) 04:53, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- We need to keep moral arguments out of this. The only relevant argument is the consensus of reliable sources. Given the lack of such a consensus in this case, I think alphabetical order is the way to go. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 05:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- I’ve already indicated I would not be opposed to that.Emiya1980 (talk) 05:08, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- What plausible narrative do you have justifying Stalin's listing at the top? Emiya1980 (talk) 04:38, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- You can plausibly narrativize any argument you want, but the point is there's no clear answer rooted in what RS would directly say. Remsense ‥ 论 04:36, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- I would place Stalin at the top due to his pivotal role.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:09, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- That's hardly a justification to place him at the top. All of the Allied leaders listed played a pivotal role in defeating the Axis in some fashion. Emiya1980 (talk) 05:21, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
This has been discussed dozens of times. The infobox reflects the consensus of these discussions. The key factor in these discussions was the guidance at Template:Infobox military conflict that "Combatants should be listed in order of importance to the conflict" - surveys of references tend to conclude that historians regard the USSR has having made the largest contribution to the Allied victory. Any further discussions of this issue should involve fresh surveys of references, not the personal views of Misplaced Pages editors. @Emiya1980: there is also no need to you to reply to every single comment being made here: this is badgering other editors. The other editors involved in this discussion should also note that Emiya1980 appears to have a history of starting these types of disputes, and may want to comment at WP:ANI#Emiya1980's use of RFCs. Nick-D (talk) 06:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
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As this seems to be so controversial why not remove it altogether, what does it add? Slatersteven (talk) 10:22, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think that it is actually controversial. The proposals to not list Stalin first tend to be from editors with little other interest in the article who are motivated by their personal beliefs. Oddly, I can't recall anyone ever suggesting that Hitler not be listed first for the Axis side, despite him being the most horrible of the horrible people who led the Axis nations. That said, I'd be quite comfortable swapping this to countries rather than individuals, which would also address the fact that the US had two leaders during the war and the UK three. Nick-D (talk) 22:33, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- Well I am interested in the whole article and I believe listing Stalin first is indeed controversial because I am not aware of a single reputable historian who ranks the allied commanders in order of "importance". Some would argue that the Soviet Union made the greatest contribution to defeating Germany in terms of casualties inflicted, territory gained and materiel destroyed, but just about everyone states that the US and Empire forces made by far the greatest contribution in defeating Japan and that the USSR would have been defeated by Germany but for the food and materiel supplied to them by the other allies and the damage caused by allied bombing and the diversion of Axis troops caused by allied forces in the Middle East, Italy and later France. Nowadays scholars tend to emphasise the joint contribution of all Allies (including smaller ones). I still think that alphabetical order (for both the Allies and Axis) is the best from a NPOV. Hirohito is also controversial (although plausible) as a main Axis leader. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 23:30, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- The discussions of this that established the current infobox included multiple surveys of reliable sources, and this reflected the consensus. These surveys revealed that quite a few historians note that the USSR played a major role in the Pacific War, even though it was only involved a few weeks of fighting, as the Soviet intervention was one of the major factors (in some historians' view the most important factor) that finally forced the Japanese leadership to acknowledge that they needed to end the war. Nick-D (talk) 00:45, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- Based on my reading of most historians on the subject, the Japanese war effort had all but collapsed by the time of the Soviet intervention. If you want me to provide sources corroborating this, I'll be happy to list them.Emiya1980 (talk) 01:00, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- The general consensus among historians is that Japan lost the Pacific War on 7 December 1941 as it had no hope of defeating the US. The issue is that it took until August 1945 for its leadership to admit defeat, hence the issue historians focus on is what prompted the Japanese to surrender when they could have continued the war at this time. This is a much debated topic. As noted above, when this was discussed it involved large scale surveys of reliable sources, so picking out sources focused on a single issue is not helpful. Nick-D (talk) 01:07, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'm familiar with the argument that Japan sealed its fate the moment it launched an attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941. However, despite the wide disparity in industrial power between Japan and the U.S. from the war's outset, the fact remains that the former's capacity to wage war remained more or less intact up to 1944. Conversely, by 1945, Japan's navy was all but destroyed and its war economy was on the verge of collapse primarily as result of American (not Soviet) forces. Taking these facts into consideration, the Soviet "August Storm" Offensive was more of the coup de grâce to the Japanese war effort, not the turning point against it. Again, what I am saying is pretty much common wisdom on the subject, but I am willing to give you sources if you feel I'm basing this on OR. Emiya1980 (talk) 01:17, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- Given that there is disagreement among those who regularly edit or comment on this article, I suggest that the way to change the relevant part of the infobox is through a RfC. I won't initiate one because I have better things to do with my time on wikipedia. However, if you initiate one I would vote for listing the main allied and axis leaders either in alphabetical order or in the order that they were leader of a country at war against the other side: thus Churchill (May 1940 to July 1945), Stalin (June 1941 to August 1945) etc. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 07:40, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- Aemilius Adolphin While I do not object to an Rfc, I'm going to have to pass on opening it myself. As indicated in the link posted above by Nick-D, I'm currently on probation for how I've used the Rfc process in the past. Emiya1980 (talk) 07:46, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'm familiar with the argument that Japan sealed its fate the moment it launched an attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941. However, despite the wide disparity in industrial power between Japan and the U.S. from the war's outset, the fact remains that the former's capacity to wage war remained more or less intact up to 1944. Conversely, by 1945, Japan's navy was all but destroyed and its war economy was on the verge of collapse primarily as result of American (not Soviet) forces. Taking these facts into consideration, the Soviet "August Storm" Offensive was more of the coup de grâce to the Japanese war effort, not the turning point against it. Again, what I am saying is pretty much common wisdom on the subject, but I am willing to give you sources if you feel I'm basing this on OR. Emiya1980 (talk) 01:17, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- The general consensus among historians is that Japan lost the Pacific War on 7 December 1941 as it had no hope of defeating the US. The issue is that it took until August 1945 for its leadership to admit defeat, hence the issue historians focus on is what prompted the Japanese to surrender when they could have continued the war at this time. This is a much debated topic. As noted above, when this was discussed it involved large scale surveys of reliable sources, so picking out sources focused on a single issue is not helpful. Nick-D (talk) 01:07, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- Based on my reading of most historians on the subject, the Japanese war effort had all but collapsed by the time of the Soviet intervention. If you want me to provide sources corroborating this, I'll be happy to list them.Emiya1980 (talk) 01:00, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- The discussions of this that established the current infobox included multiple surveys of reliable sources, and this reflected the consensus. These surveys revealed that quite a few historians note that the USSR played a major role in the Pacific War, even though it was only involved a few weeks of fighting, as the Soviet intervention was one of the major factors (in some historians' view the most important factor) that finally forced the Japanese leadership to acknowledge that they needed to end the war. Nick-D (talk) 00:45, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- Well I am interested in the whole article and I believe listing Stalin first is indeed controversial because I am not aware of a single reputable historian who ranks the allied commanders in order of "importance". Some would argue that the Soviet Union made the greatest contribution to defeating Germany in terms of casualties inflicted, territory gained and materiel destroyed, but just about everyone states that the US and Empire forces made by far the greatest contribution in defeating Japan and that the USSR would have been defeated by Germany but for the food and materiel supplied to them by the other allies and the damage caused by allied bombing and the diversion of Axis troops caused by allied forces in the Middle East, Italy and later France. Nowadays scholars tend to emphasise the joint contribution of all Allies (including smaller ones). I still think that alphabetical order (for both the Allies and Axis) is the best from a NPOV. Hirohito is also controversial (although plausible) as a main Axis leader. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 23:30, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) We've already had at least two huge RfCs on this issue ( and Talk:World War II/Archive 61#RfC: Main Allied Leaders), as well as many earlier and subsequent discussions. The current infobox reflects the results of these discussions over time. Nick-D (talk) 07:49, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
@Nug, Dhtwiki, Adoring nanny, Bigeez, ThoughtIdRetired, Peacemaker67, Hawkeye7, Maleschreiber, Whizz40, Grandpallama, TheTimesAreAChanging, Qowert, K.e.coffman, Ali Ahwazi, Anne drew, Staberinde, Serialjoepsycho, KIENGIR, Buidhe, Wes sideman, and Pincrete: In light of your prior participation in an earlier discussion regarding the order of Allied leaders in the infobox, you are invited to take part in a new discussion on the issue. If you have any opinions on the matter, please share your thoughts below. Emiya1980 (talk) 03:01, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
World War 2 start date
I have a problem. It is controversial about the start date. Please include both the 1931, 1937, or the 1939. Thank you! 24.19.225.27 (talk) 20:12, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- They are included. The first section in the article lists them, and is about all about the start (and end) dates of the conflict. 51.148.251.110 (talk) 20:18, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- Not to rehash old arguments, but it was not until Britain and France declared war on Germany that it became a war involving more than one continent. That is what made it a world war. Slatersteven (talk) 09:59, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
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